Powerful HAPKIDO people

[glad2bhere]

Dear Michael:

The reason I opened this string in this particular area is because of the very nature of Hapkido. Please allow me to elaborate.

a.) Unlike Taekwondo, the Hapkido arts are not a martial sport. Even in the most liberal definition a martial art, the Hapkido arts proceed from martial traditions and encapsulate martial science in a variety of forms-- both armed and unarmed. Almost without exception, Hapkido material has been historically intended for survival under desperate circumstances and routinely includes techniques intended to main, debilitate, incapacitate and even kill ones' opponent. The ability to do such things to another is a form of Power that we, as practitioners, help develop in ourselves and in our compatriots.

b.) Unlike many of the modern organizations, traditional Hapkido arts are commonly associated with a Kwan model of organization. This model can include a hierarchy of seniors and juniors, and commonly has a mentor. All of these positions are acknowledged in a tight network of deference, authority and care-giving. All of these positions entail Power of various degrees.

c.) The Hapkido arts continue to invoke the highest level of service by the individual to his community. This requires that person to be of high Character. I believe that the true measure of a persons' Character is how they conduct themselves when they have Power.

d.) There are no shortage of contributions about people who misuse or abuse Power, usually from positions of authority. Currently the Hapkido arts suffer from a number of such situations or fall-out from previous situations. What is lacking is a dialogue about the nature of Power itself by Hapkido practitioners as regards their art. I have no qualms about listening to feedback on this subject from practitioners of other arts, but if I had wanted that I would have put this string in a larger forum or under a more general heading. I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Miles]

..... Unlike Taekwondo, the Hapkido arts are not a martial sport. ......... material has been historically intended for survival under desperate circumstances and routinely includes techniques intended to main, debilitate, incapacitate and even kill ones' opponent. The ability to do such things to another is a form of Power that we, as practitioners, help develop in ourselves and in our compatriots.
Bruce
Bruce,

Not trying to start a flame war, but TKD is a martial art which happens to have a sporting aspect (as does Hapkido.....I recall reading something about the Hapkido games in Korea).

Your comment about "techniques intended to main (sic), debiitate, incapacitate" made me recall an incident that occurred at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. A technique in a green belt poomsae/form was being demonstrated and described by an 8th dan with English translation by a young Korean-American as "disable your opponent." An older Korean-American student corrected his junior's interpretation and said that the Grandmaster did not actually say "disable", he said "kill."

Take Care,

Miles

[glad2bhere]

Dear Miles:

Thanks for your response. You comment is exactly why I did not post my string on a more open forum. Sometimes there are some things that never quite get discussed by the folks who need to talk about those things because the discussion slides sideways onto another more opinionated and emotional issue.

Its not that we couldn't let the discussion devolve into what constitutes "martial sport" vs "martial art." Yes, I AM aware that folks in the Hapkido community have been trying to make more money by selling a sanitized, competitive version of the art. Yes, I AM aware that some styles of TKD are marketed as more combative. And yes, I AM aware we can debate and discuss back and forth until the cows come home on these arcane points. However, if you really want to enter into the spirit of this string, you can start by discussing what it is that seduces 1st BB in TKD to go open their own schools and start their own organizations. On the other hand you can discuss why it is that not ALL 1st BB do this and what is it that keeps a person FROM doing it. The theme for the string is the role of Power as it impacts Hapkido practitioners but you are welcome to join in. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Miles]

Bruce, thank you for the invite.

You said:
<<b.) Unlike many of the modern organizations, traditional Hapkido arts are commonly associated with a Kwan model of organization. This model can include a hierarchy of seniors and juniors, and commonly has a mentor. All of these positions are acknowledged in a tight network of deference, authority and care-giving. All of these positions entail Power of various degrees.>>

I think this is an almost perfect explanation of why there are problems occurring in many Martial Arts organizations where the loyalty to instructor and/or kwan may actually prevent folks from coming together and sharing. I do not think this is limited to, but may include Hapkido.

You said
<<c.) The Hapkido arts continue to invoke the highest level of service by the individual to his community. This requires that person to be of high Character. I believe that the true measure of a persons' Character is how they conduct themselves when they have Power. >>

Yes, as I was taught, the martial arts are supposed to cultivate character and that means at some point there should be sacrifice and/or service to the community. I totally agree with your assessment of how character is measured: especially where one is not "blowing their own horn" so to speak when he/she is performing their service. At that point, it becomes more "self-service or promotion" than "community service."

You said
<<d.) There are no shortage of contributions about people who misuse or abuse Power, usually from positions of authority. Currently the Hapkido arts suffer from a number of such situations or fall-out from previous situations. What is lacking is a dialogue about the nature of Power itself by Hapkido practitioners as regards their art. I have no qualms about listening to feedback on this subject from practitioners of other arts, but if I had wanted that I would have put this string in a larger forum or under a more general heading. I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners. FWIW. >>

Perhaps I am not knowledgeable about the historical context in which you framed your preface. That may clue me into what you mean by your reference to "Power" in the second sentence quoted above. If you are referring to political power, and problems caused thereby, that too is not limited to Hapkido, but I acknowledge that it is within this sphere that your interest lies.

Take Care,

Miles

[FearlessFreep]

I know a lot of musicians. Some teach. Most of them teach because they like to; they like sharing what they know, they like the look of excitement on a students face when the student 'gets it', etc...Some do it for the money...some do it for the money that should not be doing it because they are not good teachers. (And some do it because they like it but their teaching skill is not as high as their enthusiasm for teaching :)

Anyway, the questions you ask are not limited to Hapkido or even MA

[Miles]

.....However, if you really want to enter into the spirit of this string, you can start by discussing what it is that seduces 1st BB in TKD to go open their own schools and start their own organizations. On the other hand you can discuss why it is that not ALL 1st BB do this and what is it that keeps a person FROM doing it. The theme for the string is the role of Power as it impacts Hapkido practitioners but you are welcome to join in. Thoughts? Bruce:) My first thought is I wish I was more computer-savvy as it would help me with my parsing of your quotes.

What seduces 1st dans to open their own schools and start their own organizations-there may not be one single answer. Perhaps there is some belief that they have enough knowledge that they can provide a service to the community, or that they will be able to earn money, or stroke their own egos, or generate the respect of others?

What is interesting, is that I personally know of no 1st dan who started his/her own school or organization. Do you? If so, have you inquired as to their motivation(s)?

Shifting to the second question, i.e. what prevents another 1st dan from starting their own school or organization, I believe you likewise will receive numerous answers ranging from "I am loyal to my instructor" to "I am not qualified" to "I am too shy to get up in front of people."

Take Care,

Miles

[glad2bhere]

As you and Fearless are noting, the issues we are speaking to are certainly not limited to the Hapkido arts. The motive for looking at this comes from a few places though so let me give you some thoughts along that line.

1.) The Hapkido arts are constantly in a process of sub-dividing and renewing under new titles and organizations. This is particularly interesting because the actual art varies within a pretty tight range of techniques and concepts. One would expect that like people who discover that they are members of the same family, there would be more commonalities to build on than differences. It remains, however that the community continues to divide and reconstitute over and over again with the main differences being teaching models and accrual of revenues. Now, both teaching models and monies are sources of power as are things like authority, primacy, rank and standing. Being such strong motives you would think that people would want to talk about these------- and they DO BUT only in terms of the short-comings of others. For instance I might not talk about how I am owed exclusive deference, but I might complain loudly about the many people who DO NOT GIVE ME exclusive deference. Does that make sense? This leads me to point two.

2.) People in the Hapkido community tend to send mixed signals about the role of power in their practice and their organizations. For instance, everybody in the community knows that rank can be bought and sold. Everybody in the community agrees that this is not a good thing. And everybody I talk to in the community agrees that they do not support, nor do they themselves buy rank or standing. YET--- the practice continues. Now if nobody is doing it and nobody supports it--- why is the practice continuing? For the purposes of this discussion I take that example and convert it to the point we are discussing here. If we are training in an art that developes Character, and people who have been in the art for a long time espouse development of Character, how is it that we have people in the Hapkido community who conduct themselves poorly or produce students of poor Character? If Character can be measured by how a person handles Power (IE authority as a teacher; authority as an organizational head; manager etc) and we have more than a few people who do not handle that Power well, where is the system breaking down? You asked if I had inquired of people who mishandled Power as to their motives. If a person is mishandling his responsibilities in the first place, is he going to be willing to discuss this irresponsibility in a candid fashion? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Paul B]

If a person is mishandling his responsibilities in the first place, is he going to be willing to discuss this irresponsibility in a candid fashion? Thoughts?

Hi Bruce,

Ok it was a big snip...but I just want to focus on that point. I would like to think that a person would,but if they are arrogant or irresponsible in the first place to act in such a manner,what would compel them to make such amends? Hurt feel-bads? As they say..."The road to hell is paved....."

It is apparent by their actions that they have no qualms about being held responsible for any acts they commit. One more question...who would discuss their shortcomings with them? An equal? Someone in a lower rank? We all know the type who won't even look at you if you're not at least 5th Dahn,so who would be the judge of someone like that?

[Kumbajah]

...For instance, everybody in the community knows that rank can be bought and sold.

... If we are training in an art that developes Character, and people who have been in the art for a long time espouse development of Character, how is it that we have people in the Hapkido community who conduct themselves poorly or produce students of poor Character?

... where is the system breaking down?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

They are never training in the Art to begin with. They buy their way in and keep buying their way up. Some we have seen start their own Hapkido systems. Some start in another KMA buy their way in and jump around until they have to go overseas to find someone to recognize their rank after they have exhausted their options here in the US.

These actions aren't tolerated they just can't be stopped. The only place that these issues come out publicly is on these boards. For the sake of civility such accusations are not tolerated. We can meet on the street or correspond by email and say "master" x is a real tool and doesn’t know hapkido from a hole in the ground. It doesn't mean he can't fool the uninitiated , buy rank, start a school and build a following or became a mod on one of the various MA boards and become seemingly legitimate that way. It can look like a duck, sound like a duck, walk like a duck, and we can even call it a duck. But the duck is still there.

Short of reverting back to challenges to the death I think we're stuck.

[FearlessFreep]

Short of reverting back to challenges to the death I think we're stuck

It's a start...

[glad2bhere]

Dear Paul and Brian:

I agree with everything that you both have said, but now I want to take it a step deeper. Stay with me on this, 'kay?

If --- we all know that people are doing such things as we have mentioned, and

If--- we know people identify these things as "bad"--- "bad" for the art; "bad" for individual values; "bad" for the community,

THEN-- where are we falling down in our training (or our teaching, or our administrating) that such conditions continue?

For example, I think I am safe in saying that just about every KMA school or organization has some form of the traditional O-GAE ("Five Tenents") usually ascribed to the Hwa Rang Warriors of old. There are some pretty modern takes on these guidelines but they are still there. Even though #2 speaks to "Fealty to ones' Parents" I have seen some KMA students who, once they are off the mat are sorely in need of a serious "attitude adjustment" the way they speak to their parents. Or how about #5 ("Im"---- "Benevolence to All")? I've seen instructors who will do un-godly things to there students to make a point or make themselves look good, or to finance some project they have in mind. Where have we failed with these folks? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

This is an old story. It is not as simple as where are we falling down in our training. If someone is willing to buy it someone will sell it. As long as humankind has a hierarchy you could back door your way in either buying your way in, nepotism or assassination. Political, religious, and business positions have always be subject to this corruption. Some positions have been based on it - the other Golden rule - " He who has the Gold rules ". Even though the corruption exists the institutions survive. Why because there is a need for the institutions. Individuals may fall and fail because their skill or aptitude is not up to their position but the institution prevails.

There are other pitfalls such as the cult of personality. Master x has been in x magazine, is on x board, started his own system etc so he must be good. In our capitalistic society these things can be bought. All masters are just men and subject to the personality flaws that all men are subject to. Just because x can perform x skill doesn't mean x is a good person or martial artist, the converse as well is true.

So where does that leave us? Is fighting corruption like trying to drink the ocean? IMHO - no. You put forth the tenets try to instill them in your students. Embody the virtues yourself. Encourage them to seek out other practitioners that you think embody the virtues an skills that you admire - I, you or Master x is not the only source. You can see people of high skill or great teachers and the few individuals that have both. Warn them of the pitfalls that we are subject to. Knowledge is the key. In martial arts we seek to increase knowledge. Knowledge of fighting skills, knowledge of our self and our limitations and strengths, knowledge of others and their value and the fleetingness and power of life.

It is not a easy thing we pursue.

In-nae,

Brian

[Kumbajah]

I think I see where you going now. Martial arts, as well as the priesthood sanctuary to a certain sector of the population with marginal personalities. People that don't fit. With in the hierarchy and mystical undertones there is a promise of safety initially. There is a set protocol of behavior, set hierarchy, room for advancement and an alternative and insular to the "real world". The attitude imo is "I am different, here I'm expected to be different from the rest of the population" They learn the protocol an position and receive a form of legitimacy from their new role. In these new roles they are usually "set free" to practice their new skill set. Now just because they have ability to follow directions doesn't mean they have purged their personality defects. Supposedly there are methods to help purging these built into the system. They don't necessarily work. They were based on older models of understanding of the human psyche. The models work in a "normal" psyche - ie help build indomitable spirit but don't take into account the truly twisted. Perhaps if safety nets were in place there would be no pedophile priests.

There is a question of maturity in the case of shady characters. Some come to the martial arts to play dress up. Hey look at me I'm a karottie man. They played perhaps cowboy and indians or soldier growing up and now its Deadly Martial Arts expert. They never got over the need for "being cool" Wear the right costume, jump around learn some foreign words - who's going to know the difference. They reach some degree of success and it becomes addicting. In order to feed this addiction some shady practices are adapted to support it.

So how to keep them out? In the case of MA instructors - A certification board. Not judged on what you teach (everyone seems to balk at that) but things like CPR, basic first aid, basic teaching methods and perhaps initial and periodic physiological profiles. But I don't know without legislating this how you could actually implement it.

Brian "I know Judo Karate and someother Japanese words" Beach

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Brian. You are definitely playing in the ballpark I wanted to build.

The idea of being able to keep tabs on ourselves as a community is something that has kept me going for sometime. The idea of certification does not seem to work since, as you say, most people balk at being "told what to do" especially by someone not of the community (like a bureaucrat).

For myself, I relied on the administrators of whatever organization I belonged to until it became apparent that the organization was corrupt because the administrator had corrupted it. What do you do when the "policement" don't obey the rules, ne?

There are always the natural consequences of ones' behavior but that takes time to come around and who knows how much damage is done before the offender finally grinds to a stop.

Now I HAD been chewing over the awful stuff that went down a couple of years ago, and that seemed to come out pretty well for the community---- but that was AFTER the fact. I keep wondering if there would have been something that could have been done BEFORE things got so bad. Seems like we will be getting over that black eye for some time to come. Certainly MONEY figures in prominently. There is also the ease with which Mr. Joe Average can open a school without having to abide by any real criteria. See, but now we are getting into the business end of it. I know commerce is a contributing factor but its not the whole answer any more than taking TV Evangelism off the airways will make people better Christians. There is something about the matter of "cutting corners" that seems to become a slippery slope in these matters, but how to address that keeps me coming up empty. Any thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

The only thing I can say is tend to your own garden. I think that you and I are coming from different places. I believe that ALL institutions of man are flawed. Where it seems that you think that MAs should somehow be above it. Like attracts like, if people want that they will go towards it. If they are looking for the easy way out they will find a way. You can shout from the mountain top moral objections, people are only cheating themselves, caveat emptor but most people only learn by making their own mistakes.

I don't mean to sound cynical, I'm not. I think you should strive for the ideal but I try not to waste time getting bent out of shape when I or others fall short. We all do - a lot. When all that stuff went down in Hapkido - all denounced person x- eventually. Some moved on and were stronger for it. Some bounced around trying to find the next guy that would give them an easy way. I think that they deserve pity rather than scorn.

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

I think I know what you mean, but now lets take the longer view. Certainly we are in control of our own development, but what about the consequences to the activities in which we engage. In our case I am speaking of the KMA. We are of an age where the torch is being passed to us and some part of where these traditions go is in out hands. As I write this I am thinking of the recent damage by the Olympic situation and the TKD debacle. Of course, these are on the larger stage of Life. In counterpoint we have the smaller situations like the various abuses of Power in these discussions. True, I am not sure what direction to take, but the stakes seem a bit high to lay back and leave it all in the hands of Fate. Whatcha think?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Sheesh - I thought I was taking the long view. My point is you can only take care of what you can. Our personal development yes, but also that is or will be left to our charge. Don't be an avenue for self delusion the wondering souls. Once they find they have to work they will step up or go away. The art is above any org that might exist. You just protect your corner of it and try to inspire the next crop. Be a place that people who want to learn and work can go. Kind of "think globally - act locally" scenario.

Everybody knows where the McDojangs in their town are. When you meet someone that studies there "Oh you study there. Thats nice. Glad you enjoy it " as you smile and nod. Maybe they'll clue in maybe they won't. If they do you'll be there.

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Oh-Oh. This is getting scarey, Brian. I think I see a light at the end of the tunnel. :-)

Of course, that still leaves us with the quandry about what to do when confronted with deviant behavior. By that I mean behavior which is in conflict with the values espoused by the same system. For instance, if an art indicates that it is guided by the O-GAE, what is our responsibility when presented with someone who deviates from that guideline? Certainly one can step in and clarify the situation, but that assumes that the person WANTS to be guided, right? There are always those who willfully enjoy deviating from a code for no other reason than they can. Then, too, we can simply back off and let the cards fall as they may, which could also smack of abandonment or even abdication of responsibility. No one here is expected to save the world, of course, but what of those who intentionally neglect their duties or abuse their responsibility? Once again I see some dicey ground here. Seeing a child struck in a Supermarket by its parent would cause me to act. What about a senior who is needlessly abusive to lower students? Better yet, what about a person, senior to ME, who is abusive to students? For another example, if a person buys a University degree from a market, well thats on him. But am I duty-bound to comment if I watch a senior rank do the same thing? Speaking in the abstract is one thing, but are we mandated to convert beliefs into action? I say "yes" but I suspect that when it comes to acting, I am something of a minority. The bureaucratic phrase, "he's a boy-scout" or "he's a loose cannon" come to mind. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Dear Bruce,

Nothing wrong with taking action - Taking care of your own is action. You have to start somewhere. If your own house is not in order how can you help someone else get theirs in order? You can correct someone but in the context of O-Gae you have to do it from a position of respect. If it is a junior, show patience they are still learning. If it a senior, don't correct them in front of others, we all loose our way occasionally. Take a private moment to suggest diplomatically that maybe a better course of action could be taken. A gentle reminder if you will. I think the "loose cannon" and "boy-scout" monikers is earned in how one reacts. No one wants someone there that is constantly a reminder of their faults. Most of us are aware of them. Sometimes our actions are compensation for them. Sometimes a constant reminder is the catalyst to act out the wrong behavior just to get the reaction. "HeHe - "know it all" see how the vein sticks out in his forehead when he gets pissed." Sometimes just a look is enough correction. You don't have to swing the hammer at every infraction. Trying to be an example is best course of action. Basically IMO what it boils down to is patience with ourselves and others. We are learning here with brief time of the earth. Nobody's perfect. If you think someone needs a helping hand try kindness first. You always have the hammer.

Brian "I can kick my own ass better than anyone else" Beach

[Miles]

The only thing I can say is tend to your own garden. I think that you and I are coming from different places. I believe that ALL institutions of man are flawed. Where it seems that you think that MAs should somehow be above it. Like attracts like, if people want that they will go towards it. .......


I don't mean to sound cynical, I'm not. I think you should strive for the ideal but I try not to waste time getting bent out of shape when I or others fall short. ....
Brian
FWIW, I agree with Brian. We pray that all men and women would aspire to always act benevolently and in the best interest of their art and students. However, humankind is not perfect so even those who practice martial arts are not perfect (just striving for perfection, a goal which will always be out of our grasp). In the end, the only person any of us can control is ourself.

Miles

[Master Todd Miller]

FWIW, I agree with Brian. We pray that all men and women would aspire to always act benevolently and in the best interest of their art and students. However, humankind is not perfect so even those who practice martial arts are not perfect (just striving for perfection, a goal which will always be out of our grasp). In the end, the only person any of us can control is ourself.

Miles

I have to agree with Miles & Brian on this. One of the reasons training in the Mudo are so important is that we are imperfect beings and we see or should see that in our selves. Continued everyday practice helps our body and more importantly our spirit to grow beyond the petty things in life (some call this enlightenment). I look at it like this training is kind of like a filter: there are many things that can take our attention away from the important issues in life and proper training helps us to see through these things a little better.

Just some thoughts,

sincerely

www.millersmudo.com

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian, Miles et al:

Having said what you have, do you see a need for closer networking among practitioners? This is kind of hard to describe because each time such a theme comes up it always seems to be within the context of starting some new organization :mp5: :jedi1: Thats not what I am thinking and I really don't want to go down that road. I think what I am wanting ask is if there is a need to make the idea of Hapkido practitioners networking with each other informally a common characterisitic of what we do. Right now, the tendency is for like-minded folks to get together, but it is always because those folks share a particular view of how Hapkido comes together for them. To me it seems as though the heavy emphasis of most groups is the physical side of the art. Now, there are Hapkido groups that have more tightly defined behavioral requirements like the WHRDA and the WKSWA, but these groups are always suffering from splits and the reputation for being cultish. I think I could be forgiven for characterizing the Hapkido arts as being comprised of practitioners with a bent towards independent thinking and action, and an in-bred fear of being told what to do. I think what I am describing is a fundamental change in the image of the Hapkido arts, or at least how they are perceived on the KMA community stage. Its a little like TKD as Martial Art and as MArtial Sport. There is a difference between the two, but the question is whether there is sufficient reason to delineate clearly and formally. What I am throwing out for discussion is perhaps a need to delineate between the Hapkido arts as a commecial venture vs a cultural venture. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Dear Brian, Miles et al:

Having said what you have, do you see a need for closer networking among practitioners? ...

Hapkido practitioners networking with each other informally a common characterisitic of what we do. ...

To me it seems as though the heavy emphasis of most groups is the physical side of the art...

What I am throwing out for discussion is perhaps a need to delineate between the Hapkido arts as a commecial venture vs a cultural venture. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Kind of switching it up here - ok I'll bite

The sharing of ideas is always beneficial to the growth of any endeavor. When ever I'm in a strange town I try to check out if they have hapkido there. If so I stop by. There are some local people that I am planing to visit. There is also Jackson. I think most people are open to the idea of guest students.

The empasis on physical - it is a physical activity. Any spirituality or character development stems from it. It is the physical activity that teaches us mindfulness.

I don't think there is a need to delineate. Every teacher has a differnet emphasis. Some kick more than others, some throw but you still are getiing facets of the whole art. Eventually you get it all. If you have the McDojang mindset saying you are a cultural endeavor isn't going to help.

As a cultural endeavor I don't think it is necessary to become a koreaophile to reap the benefits of hapkido. It may give you a better understanding in a historical sense but not necessary. I don't need to know the history of basketball and America to be in the NBA. (just need to grow a foot and get an be able to go to my off side) :)

[glad2bhere]

".....The sharing of ideas is always beneficial to the growth of any endeavor. When ever I'm in a strange town I try to check out if they have hapkido there. If so I stop by. There are some local people that I am planing to visit. There is also Jackson. I think most people are open to the idea of guest students......"

Exactly! I think Jackson-like activities would be a very good model to build-on. For instance, heres' some things that would help.

1.) Open private homes of local members to folks from out of town. If need be, the money that would be paid to motels could be gifted to the local person, to the school or just kicked into a "kitty" for the following years' expenses.

2.) Cut the number of workshops to two or three (at most) and expect 100% participation; no spectators.

3.) Include presentations on school management; discussion groups on values and ethics with resources for further investigation.

4.) Organize a support network--- no charge-- for people who want follow-up on what they experienced at Jackson year-round.

If their is one key to all of this its to get people out of their isolationism and communicating. Think of it like the folks who go around at social gatherings and get the wall-flowers involved in activities. Hell, something as simple as a Name permanently displayed on a uniform would be a BIG step forward!! Yes, I know. This flies in the face of the usual Hapkido behavior. At most gatherings individuals go off by themselves and "stretch-out" and most folks leave them to that. The only ones going around are usually the glad-handers with something to sell or wanting to recruit people to their groups or organizations. I also acknowlege that most people go out to dinner or the bars after a workout. Ever wonder why they need to hide behind a mouthful of food or drink? Maybe food or drink is a pleasant shield or distraction when conversation gets a little too "heavy", yes? For myself, I was surprised how difficult it was to discuss Hapkido in any depth with people outside of the school. Still can't quite get my head around that one. People come from miles away to sit in a bar and gossip about what--- Football? Baseball? Other peoples shortcomings? Can't quite fathom that. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

My thoughts

"1.) Open private homes of local members to folks from out of town."

I think that is a lot to ask of Master West's students. Opening your home to strangers while nobel is a bit much. I know in my case my wife tolerates my MA obsession,(good naturely calls me a MA nerd) don't need to beat her over the head with it. If I had children don't think I'd be comfortable at all. As previously noted just because you are in the MAs doesn't mean you are a good person or one that can be tolerated on a round the clock basis.

"2.) Cut the number of workshops to two or three (at most) and expect 100% participation; no spectators."

A lot of non Hapkido people show up to get a feel of the art. So the multiple workshops allow them to pick what may interest them. There is the factor of Multiple Masters attendeding if they want to share they should have a venue. It also allows people to "hey, I heard about this guy lemme see what he's like"

100% participation - don't know why you would come if you don't want to join in.

"3.) Include presentations on school management; discussion groups on values and ethics with resources for further investigation."

Great Idea

"4.) Organize a support network--- no charge-- for people who want follow-up on what they experienced at Jackson year-round."

I think this is in place - you meet someone there that is in your area - agree to meet at home. From what I've found Rudy JR and other people are more than willing to take a phone call or email.

"I also acknowlege that most people go out to dinner or the bars after a workout. Ever wonder why they need to hide behind a mouthful of food or drink? Maybe food or drink is a pleasant shield or distraction when conversation gets a little too "heavy", yes?"

Eating and drinking has allways been a social activity. Most of the best conversations I've had are around a table. People also talk about ther things to find out about other aspects of each other. There can be too much of a good thing.

FWIW

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

See, now I think this is interesting, and in no way am I being critical of your list. I think every one of you observations has merit. For instance, bringing a person into my house with kids can get to be a pretty uncomfortable situation, especially for first-timers. What I think is interesting is the sense of "not doing", rather than doing. Again, this is NOT a shot at you. I point this out only because many times when something is being discussed it is not un-usual to have people in on the discussion "err" on the side of not doing. I am not sure if this comes from the idea of "if it works don't fix it", or inertia or that "isolation" I mentioned or what. But its not just that. Let me take one other comment you made about going out and socializing.

At home my wife and I go out an absolute minimum of once a week (its our "date") night. Chances are pretty good she will get me to go out a lot more than that, but once a week is the minimum. Also, the beer or Crown Royal I can get anywhere. Up in Illinois you can't swing a dead cat by the tail without banging into a bar. What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice. Its not that I don't appreciate talking like this with you, but we both know the limitations of not being able to see each others face, or communicate in "real time". Did you notice the strings I started about committing to Jackson, and minimal standards and common terminology? Did you note the responses? People weren't exactly kicking down the door to contribute. Why do you think that is? Maybe they have nothing to contribute. Hmmmm. Theres' something to look into. Maybe they are shy about contributing. Theres another thing to look into. Maybe they just want to sit back and let others do the work. Yet another thing to investigate. But something I see in all of these things is a retiscence to be pro-active about what we do. Are you seeing the same thing I'm seing?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Rich Parsons]

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[glad2bhere]

Dear Rich:

Thanks for the heads-up. Scanning back over the string I think I have identified the post that was deleted and can surmize a pretty good reason for why this was done. Certainly no offense was intended to those of the Christian faith but I do apologize if my comment gave offense all the same.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

"I point this out only because many times when something is being discussed it is not un-usual to have people in on the discussion "err" on the side of not doing. I am not sure if this comes from the idea of "if it works don't fix it", or inertia or that "isolation" I mentioned or what."

I think that not everyone has the same concerns as you may have. What you may see as a problem, others may think is just peachy. To go back to the hotel vs private home issue. Why not have your own bed/shower/phone etc. If you stay in the same hotel as the gathering there is no need to make travel arrangements. Someone is there to take your messages, clean the room etc. You don't have to worry about your accommodations you can focus on the seminars.

Now if your rational behind staying with someone is so you can have constant rap sessions about Hapkido, I don't think that you will find many that will sign up for that either. I for one need a little down time to digest and reflect. So in this case I don't think its a matter of being proactive as a matter of taste or preference.

"What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice."

You are going to have to eat over a weekend, I don't understand your objection to going out to eat or having a drink after the work out. You are still interacting with the same people. Some may still wish to continue the discussions about Hapkido other may want it be more free flowing. The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing.



"Did you notice the strings I started about committing to Jackson, and minimal standards and common terminology? Did you note the responses? People weren't exactly kicking down the door to contribute. Why do you think that is?"

I think you did get some responses. The thread got hijacked though. People offered their curricula and some responses. Maybe others don't have anything to contribute, maybe shyness is an issue, or just maybe they just don't think it as important as you do. Where you may see a crisis they may only see bump in the road.

It's great to be passionate about something and another to beat people over the head with it.

Token Neil Young Quote " Doesn't have to mean that much to me to mean that much to you" - from "Old Man"

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"...... The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing....."

Well, here, you have me, Brian. I would not exactly characterize it as an "endurance power session", but you are right. After coming in from out of town for a weekend once or twice a year, I look to sqeeze all of the Hapkido out of the weekend that I can. Its no big secret that I have left events early rather than continue to participate after finding out what the actual agenda was. Over in Korea I had no qualms about eating and drinking hapki-yu-sool because I knew that I would not get another "dose" for another year. And if Life intrervened, which it often does, I would not get a refresher for Two years. It IS true that many of the folks who come to the Jackson event are already closely related to JR and his USKMAF as well as his school so what they don't get one weekend they can probably put together on another. There are also people who train in TKD or TSD and just come for the additional material a Hapkido seminar can offer. Me? I usually pack-up a number of books, papers, magazines and anything else I hope to share with someone and thoroughly expect they are doing the same. I remember one time I went to Jackson and was asking a number of people about Korean sword. Couldn't find a single person who had any interest, which probably wound-up making me look like a show-off out to demonstrate "how much" I
know. In fact, I stopped bringing my books after a while when it became apparent that people were automatically thinking I was pushing to sell them rather than discuss the format and approach for their opinions.

Tell you what. Let me put it this way.

Of course, there is also the practical side of it. I have only so many dollars budgeted for travel, which means a few small, one or two medium or one big event is about all I have to work with for myself. Last year it was Korea, and this year if I plan to squeeze out Korea plus at least one other. But if I were to do that, I don't plan on spending valuable time sitting on a barstool discussing Iraq or the recent Tsunami. Yes all of that is very true. But----

if Jackson is "not" a place that a guy who is passionate about KMA and Hapkido can go to steep himself in that art for weekend where exactly DOES one go? I don't know about you, Brian, but I don't need more drinking buddies. Nor do I need another Hapkido organization, any more political intrigue; not one more "grandmaster this" or "certification that". What I need are people who are passionate about Hapkido, where its been and where its going. The last time I was at Jackson I managed 10 minutes with Dr. Kimm and got at least one valuable insight into BON KUK GUM BUP. Now if I could do THAT for a weekend imagine where training could go! Don't hear me wrong. I am not discounting people who just want to get together and "play" for a weekend. But if there is room for people who want to romp and play I am wondering where the people are who are driven to do something else. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

"Of course, there is also the practical side of it. I have only so many dollars budgeted for travel, which means a few small, one or two medium or one big event is about all I have to work with for myself. Last year it was Korea, and this year if I plan to squeeze out Korea plus at least one other. But if I were to do that, I don't plan on spending valuable time sitting on a barstool discussing Iraq or the recent Tsunami. Yes all of that is very true. But----"

I see your point and again appreciate your passion. My experience of seminars is usually you only walk away with one or two that really stick. Most people aren't built like sponges. When someone starts at your Dojang do you teach them the entire white belt curriculum in the first day? If you did how much do you expect them to actually digest? I usually try to keep a notebook so I can go back and revisit things but even then I would have to have the notebook on the mat to get everything. I don't know about you but I have a hard time writing while doing nak bup. :)

I think most people don't see these seminars as a major part of their training but more of a fringe benefit or dessert if you will. I get more out of going to the dojo and dojang every week than a weekend now and again. Not that I don't learn something there, but its more to give me a new perspective.

"But if there is room for people who want to romp and play I am wondering where the people are who are driven to do something else. Thoughts?"

Well I was always taught if you can't find something build it yourself.

Brian

BILL MOYERS: Do you ever have the sense of... being helped by hidden hands?

JOSEPH CAMPBELL: All the time. It is miraculous. I even have a superstition that has grown on me as a result of invisible hands coming all the time - namely, that if you do follow your bliss you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. When you can see that, you begin to meet people who are in your field of bliss, and they open doors to you. I say, follow your bliss and don't be afraid, and doors will open where you didn't know they were going to be.

* * *

My general formula for my students is "Follow your bliss." Find where it is, and don't be afraid to follow it.

--Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, pp. 120, 149

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....I think most people don't see these seminars as a major part of their training but more of a fringe benefit or dessert if you will. I get more out of going to the dojo and dojang every week than a weekend now and again. Not that I don't learn something there, but its more to give me a new perspective. ...."

When I was a gueppie I think my perspective was closer to the one you mention here. Later when I stepped across the line as a BB and dedicated my life to Hapkido, there was still some of that "dessert" approach to seminars. Believe it or not I think it was getting out on the Internet that made the biggest change. Something that I have seen a lot of is the dynamic of people "talking" a good art but never quite getting around to matching their words with behavior. To large degree that was a motive for starting this string. In my own experience what I saw were many high placed individuals espousing some high-flown ethic and then quietly violating the hell out of it in their own lives. Now certainly I am not labeling EVERYBODY as we both know that is much too big a brush, but there were way too many people talking one thing and saying another. I figure it was pretty much the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. I handled the first few experiences pretty well, and then a little less well and finally I could feel myself getting really annoyed. Now, as you pointed out --- a.) I have no control over their behavior and b.) theres no sense beating a person over the head about their own shortcomings. All too true. So, what I find myself left with is a strong desire tosimply no longer be "P"'d on and told to my face that "its' raining", if you know what I mean. I think what it is, I have become just a bit too old to blythely believe any old stuff some personality shovels at me just because he is "GM So-&-So, 10th Dan of Mir Ki Kwan". So it is that we have a thread on how it is that people come to abuse the Power they find given into their hands, yes? But for me personally the position remains that if there is room in the Hapkido community for other types, there is certainly room enough for me. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

So you found out that your idols have clay feet. Hopefully the shock was not too overbearing. A lot of what you are saying sounds like "They are not giving me what I want, so screw them." You can't expect people to lay a lifetime of knowledge at your feet just because you want them to. Or have them dictate their behavior to suit your needs. It doesn't work that way. Why? because people have their own needs and there are other people than you who are interested.

So where does that leave someone who has decided to dedicate their life to Hapkido? I guess the only options are 1. Move to Korea or 2. Start a Hapkido Hermitage. Either way I think your wife will miss date night. :)

In-Nae,
Brian

"Life is what happens when you are busy making other plans" - John Lennon

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

"......So you found out that your idols have clay feet. Hopefully the shock was not too overbearing. A lot of what you are saying sounds like "They are not giving me what I want, so screw them." You can't expect people to lay a lifetime of knowledge at your feet just because you want them to. Or have them dictate their behavior to suit your needs. It doesn't work that way. Why? because people have their own needs and there are other people than you who are interested......"

Nope. Already been through all that a long time ago. What I have been advocating for some time is "equal time" or "equal regard" for people who take their training with a bit more passion. Lets take a look at the scorecard, if you will.

If people want to talk about making a buck, do advertising, pitch some event or activity there are more than enough opportunities and venues.

If people want to stir-up controversey, point fingers and affix blame there is no lack of people to chime in with an opinion.

If people want to dibble and dabble in KMA, buy and sell rank, misrepresent or represent, test the waters sans commitment and otherwise avoid dedication while pretending engagement there are plenty of open ears, opportunities and suckers born every minute.

And to put the crowning touch on this, THIS VENUE, the "information superhighway", the INTERNET, which could be an incredible opportunity for people to discourse is actually LOSING intelligent folk who have grown fed up with the superficial, innane, mindless drivel that passes for 70% of the dialogues. I can name at least 5 and maybe as many as ten well-known MA authorities who have stopped, or severely curtailed their participation in discussions because they have decided that they simply don't need to hassle!! We had a concrete example of this very thing here on MT with the string that was closed down.

My position is that if there is room for all the superficial, the shallow and the mundane I suggest that there is room for the passionate, the intellectual the deeply-abiding. I am not talking about people laying their truths at my feet. I am talking about people being willing to process their truths in some sort of meaningful way. Alluding to such truths, suggesting such positions, promising investigation at some vague later date does not get it! And nobody is ordering anyone to behave according to MY dictates. What I am asking is that people live-up to the values they THEMSELVES have espoused. Absent that, perhaps the least folks can do is own that the Hapkido arts are no more than a well-oiled hypocrisy; an illusion perpetuated to sell a MA image. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[kwanjang]

... Now if your rational behind staying with someone is so you can have constant rap sessions about Hapkido, I don't think that you will find many that will sign up for that either. I for one need a little down time to digest and reflect. So in this case I don't think its a matter of being proactive as a matter of taste or preference.

"What we don't have a lot of where I am is a lot of face-to-face discussion of what we in the KMA do and why. Maybe this is why people do what they do when they are by themselves; because there is no true sense of MA community. Being more specific maybe the Hapkido community has no true sense of itself, I don't know. I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice."

You are going to have to eat over a weekend, I don't understand your objection to going out to eat or having a drink after the work out. You are still interacting with the same people. Some may still wish to continue the discussions about Hapkido other may want it be more free flowing. The vision of a weekend seminar I'm getting from you is some sort of endurance power session. Where all activities and conversation must be around Hapkido. Again, maybe too much of a good thing....Brian

Hi all:
I have always "pushed" for the idea of social gaterhings after some long hours of hard training. In fact, I usually organize a dance on Saturday night. I firmly believe that such socials have a significant benefit. In fact, I believe that it is essential to keep harmony in the family. Just think of it. Your wife, husband, or significant other goes to a seminar, spends anywhere from $100.00 to $500.00 (or more), and then spends his or her free time talking shop does not go over well with spouses.

In my experience, a nice social where spouses are not overlooked may just allow someone to return for another go at it next year. There is still ample time to get into some details with other practitioners, but it helps if someone takes the significant other for a spin on the dance floor while you talk shop.

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy,

Yes, but lets be entirely accurate here. The fact is that you are very much an exception to the rule in your approach. By this I mean that of the few events I have been to that you oversaw or were a part of, your investment in people taking new insights into the art away with them was palpable. After the actual event, you are KNOWN for doing after-event impromptu-s such as the Parking Lot Seminar on breaking. What I see this doing is at least providing an option for people who want to "talk-shop" versus people who don't. Certainly I know that Kathy would not deal well with coming down to Jackson for a weekend and having to amuse herself during the day and then be sidelined at night as well. I'm right there with you. But if someone wanted to spend the weekend eat-sleep-drinking Hapkido I am afraid that you are offering one of the few opportunities for providing anything like that. If that would be expected happen at other events I suspect folks could network before the event or maybe connect at the event, but the chance to do it would be because THEY made it happen and not because it was promoted, encouraged or provided for by the activity. Does this make sense?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

OK, you have run allover the place with this one, It started as abusing power and now we are at why can't you find your place in the Hapkido world. I'm growing weary of playing Sancho to your Don Quixote :)

So, you are tired of being blown off. Maybe people are not seeing you as you see yourself, namely passionate, intellectual and deeply-abiding, oh you forgot humble. Perhaps it is you people don't want to deal with, not the ideas that you may have or want to explore. You do have good ideas but you seem to push people's buttons a lot.

"We had a concrete example of this very thing here on MT with the string that was closed down."

Actually no one left. There was a misunderstanding but it got worked out. Everyone is still here.

"I am talking about people being willing to process their truths in some sort of meaningful way. Alluding to such truths, suggesting such positions, promising investigation at some vague later date does not get it! "

Again see above.

I don't mean to be harsh. I enjoy the banter. But if this is the global response maybe it is time to examine your approach.

In-nae,

Brian

[kwanjang]

... of the few events I have been to that you oversaw or were a part of, your investment in people taking new insights into the art away with them was palpable. After the actual event, you are KNOWN for doing after-event impromptu-s such as the Parking Lot Seminar on breaking. What I see this doing is at least providing an option for people who want to "talk-shop" versus people who don't.
Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
I have actually had loads of fun that way, but after two divorces I thought I would spare others the same fate lol. Love is grand, divorce is a hundred grand:(

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

We seem to have gone off on a separate path, here. Lets recap a bit.

The original string was and is about how power can and is mis-used and abused. If I have this correct we started out by discussing how people may be abusing power and generally I would like to talk about how we can shape what we teach such that people will handle power better. The discussion seemed to move towards the idea that people are going to do what they are going to do, and I don't fault that. However, we started talking about Jackson as a venue for demonstrating how people COULD shape their OWN behavior. In other words, I was imagining that the discussion of Jackson was a "lab" for seeing how we could use a situation and make an arguement for a better use of power. I have been "volunteeering" myself and my views rather than pick-out some other person (which always seems to wind-up in a fight).

This string is not about "me", and maybe I am wrong but it seems like you are want to identify what we are talking about as "my" problem due to "my point-of-view". I am NOT saying my point-of-view does not play a part here. What I AM saying is that there is a condition that exists, that there is ample evidence for the existence of that condition, and that we need to talk about it rather than say, "well, thats the way it is". Rudy was good enough to use HIMSELF as an example, and I concur with his comments, so we know that the matter CAN be dealt with if people want to. As I see it, the question as it stands right now is why don't more people take the approach I am talking about and both Rudy and I demonstrate? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[whalen]

Hello Bruce:
I have actually had loads of fun that way, but after two divorces I thought I would spare others the same fate lol. Love is grand, divorce is a hundred grand:(


My good friend Rudy I could not agree more.... Marriage is the only gift that you still give even after your divorce on a weekly basis....

Whenever someone asks for legal advise I give them My ex-wife's lawyers card ha-ha-ha

Great deal she got the house I got my doboks

Hal whalen

[Kumbajah]

Bruce,

It does seem to be your problem. Other people do network and look deeper in the arts. They do it in the context of their master and org. They go to seminars and meet people from other orgs and follow up. We had a group that traveled from Canada to the US. They had offers to stay in Dojangs from there to here and a few that weren't on the route. One person took it as a challenge that they wanted to stop by and gave rules of engagement, guess who?

Rudy's parking lot soft breaking clinic was because he chose to do it. No one guilted him into it. No one said if you practice the 5 tenets you better give me all the Hapkido I can handle. You threw out Jackson as counter to what you wanted in an earlier post. Below are quotes that I believe demonstate what led me to believe that the thread is about you.

I do think that their is room for improvement in Hapkido. There is room for improvement in any endeavor. Most of us are trying to get along.



"I am a Hapkido practitioner and teacher, whose art is suffering from misuses of Power and I am very interested to discuss the nature of Power in all its facets with other Hapkido practitioners."

I've seen instructors who will do un-godly things to there students to make a point or make themselves look good, or to finance some project they have in mind. Where have we failed with these folks? Thoughts? Comments?

For myself, I relied on the administrators of whatever organization I belonged to until it became apparent that the organization was corrupt because the administrator had corrupted it. What do you do when the "policement" don't obey the rules, ne?

here is something about the matter of "cutting corners" that seems to become a slippery slope in these matters, but how to address that keeps me coming up empty. Any thoughts?

True, I am not sure what direction to take, but the stakes seem a bit high to lay back and leave it all in the hands of Fate. Whatcha think?

Seeing a child struck in a Supermarket by its parent would cause me to act. What about a senior who is needlessly abusive to lower students? Better yet, what about a person, senior to ME, who is abusive to students? For another example, if a person buys a University degree from a market, well thats on him. But am I duty-bound to comment if I watch a senior rank do the same thing? Speaking in the abstract is one thing, but are we mandated to convert beliefs into action? I say "yes" but I suspect that when it comes to acting, I am something of a minority. The bureaucratic phrase, "he's a boy-scout" or "he's a loose cannon" come to mind.

I also acknowlege that most people go out to dinner or the bars after a workout. Ever wonder why they need to hide behind a mouthful of food or drink? Maybe food or drink is a pleasant shield or distraction when conversation gets a little too "heavy", yes? For myself, I was surprised how difficult it was to discuss Hapkido in any depth with people outside of the school. Still can't quite get my head around that one.


I just know that I don't have to sit 15 hours on a bus to go out drinking after a workout. I don't have to travel to Colorado to go out to lunch. I go to those events to connect with other practitioners ABOUT what we practice. Its not that I don't appreciate talking like this with you, but we both know the limitations of not being able to see each others face, or communicate in "real time". Did you notice the strings I started about committing to Jackson, and minimal standards and common terminology? Did you note the responses? People weren't exactly kicking down the door to contribute.Why do you think that is?"

"I look to sqeeze all of the Hapkido out of the weekend that I can. Its no big secret that I have left events early rather than continue to participate after finding out what the actual agenda was...
Me? I usually pack-up a number of books, papers, magazines and anything else I hope to share with someone and thoroughly expect they are doing the same. I remember one time I went to Jackson and was asking a number of people about Korean sword. Couldn't find a single person who had any interest, which probably wound-up making me look like a show-off out to demonstrate "how much" I know. In fact, I stopped bringing my books after a while when it became apparent that people were automatically thinking I was pushing to sell them rather than discuss the format and approach for their opinions."

"if Jackson is "not" a place that a guy who is passionate about KMA and Hapkido can go to steep himself in that art for weekend where exactly DOES one go? I don't know about you, Brian, but I don't need more drinking buddies. Nor do I need another Hapkido organization, any more political intrigue; not one more "grandmaster this" or "certification that". What I need are people who are passionate about Hapkido, where its been and where its going. The last time I was at Jackson I managed 10 minutes with Dr. Kimm and got at least one valuable insight into BON KUK GUM BUP. Now if I could do THAT for a weekend imagine where training could go! Don't hear me wrong. I am not discounting people who just want to get together and "play" for a weekend. But if there is room for people who want to romp and play I am wondering where the people are who are driven to do something else."

"To large degree that was a motive for starting this string. In my own experience what I saw were many high placed individuals espousing some high-flown ethic and then quietly violating the hell out of it in their own lives"

"the old "do as I say, not as I do" thing. I handled the first few experiences pretty well, and then a little less well and finally I could feel myself getting really annoyed. Now, as you pointed out --- a.) I have no control over their behavior and b.) theres no sense beating a person over the head about their own shortcomings. All too true. So, what I find myself left with is a strong desire tosimply no longer be "P"'d on and told to my face that "its' raining", if you know what I mean. I think what it is, I have become just a bit too old to blythely believe any old stuff some personality shovels at me just because he is "GM So-&-So, 10th Dan of Mir Ki Kwan". So it is that we have a thread on how it is that people come to abuse the Power they find given into their hands, yes? But for me personally the position remains that if there is room in the Hapkido community for other types, there is certainly room enough for me."


"My position is that if there is room for all the superficial, the shallow and the mundane I suggest that there is room for the passionate, the intellectual the deeply-abiding. I am not talking about people laying their truths at my feet. I am talking about people being willing to process their truths in some sort of meaningful way. Alluding to such truths, suggesting such positions, promising investigation at some vague later date does not get it! And nobody is ordering anyone to behave according to MY dictates. What I am asking is that people live-up to the values they THEMSELVES have espoused. Absent that, perhaps the least folks can do is own that the Hapkido arts are no more than a well-oiled hypocrisy; an illusion perpetuated to sell a MA image."

"As I see it, the question as it stands right now is why don't more people take the approach I am talking about and both Rudy and I demonstrate?"

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....It does seem to be your problem. Other people do network and look deeper in the arts. They do it in the context of their master and org. They go to seminars and meet people from other orgs and follow up. We had a group that traveled from Canada to the US. They had offers to stay in Dojangs from there to here and a few that weren't on the route. One person took it as a challenge that they wanted to stop by and gave rules of engagement, guess who?....."

Sorry, Brian but thats not the way that suggestion of a visit went down and I am a little disappointed because you were privy to that altercation and know what was happening. Somewhere I have retained all the emails if it would refresh your memory, but then, what exactly would that prove? It was not the benign experience you are suggesting. You know it. I know it. And the other two individuals involved in that matter know it as well. I am also disappointed that you are bending what could be a sound discussion of a very counterproductive behavior (or attitude) in the Hapkido community down the same old road of pointing fingers and laying blame. I have not derided anyone, nor have I criticized anyone. I've worked hard to keep things general and used myself when I needed to make an example. If you believe that makes this thread "about me" I need to remind you that had I used the names of others, you would have just as easily asked me why I was talking about others and not myself. Either way I would not have "won" and thats where I have become sad about this discussion. It is slowly devolving into someone being "right" and someone being "wrong". Same old Hapkido stuff......

"......Rudy's parking lot soft breaking clinic was because he chose to do it. No one guilted him into it. No one said if you practice the 5 tenets you better give me all the Hapkido I can handle......"

I cannot find any reference to "guilt-tripping" anyone. If you have some sort of unresolved anger tucked away about me we can certainly go offline and talk about it. But what you are saying right now does not jive with what we are talking about. I have not "guilt-tripped" anyone. All I have said is that if people represent what they do in a particular light or a particular way more often than not that representation does not jive with what they do. Listening to people argue about trivia on these Nets its plain that folks have a lot of passion for the KMA. My point is that Passion, more often than not, is turned towards lesser behaviors than greater behaviors. This happens time and again even though people speak about aspiring to higher behaviors. This string is about why that happens. Simple enough?

".......I do think that their is room for improvement in Hapkido. There is room for improvement in any endeavor. Most of us are trying to get along......"

I agree. My point is that the overall attitude among most of the people in charge in the Hapkido arts is that "we WILL get along.... just as soon as you see I'm right and start thinking like me." Now, I get accused of espousing this position many times. Noone has presented any concrete evidence its usually "just a feeling" they have. On the other hand I have never told my students where to go and what to do and the hand I have reached out to help people or the Hapkido community has been bitten more times than I care to think about. If you don't want to talk about that situation, I understand completely. But thats what this string is about. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Bruce,

I'm sorry that I brought that up. I only did it to illustrate a point. I have the emails as well. The orginal exchage was prompted by strong criticism (perceived as an insult) offered by you. And after all was said and done you still had an invitation to our dojang to watch our Black Belt tests and engage with GM Kim. Again it is best to let sleeping dogs lie and again I apologize, it was a lapse in judgment.

Basically what I'm trying to convey (I guess in vain) is these problems or lack of congruence with words and actions is perhaps a problem that is particularly relevent to you but not others. People are getting along better than you've expirenced. The crux is that people are not getting along with you as well as you would like or contributing to the projects that you think are important. I.E. if someone else had brought up minimum standards perhaps it would have gone further.

I hold no anger towards you. We converse here and in privite email. The invitation is still open. I think you can be very valuable to the Hapkido community. I am just suggesting that maybe you rethink your approach of dealing with people and maybe you would see more doors open.

Brian

[Master Todd Miller]

Brian,

You sound like a level headed Mudoin and I think you have brought up some real good points to ponder for Bruce and all others that are passionate about Korean Mudo. My humble advice to Bruce is that not everyone looks at the Korean Mudo as you do and there many different opinions on what should be done to improve "Hapkido". What we all can do for starters is be honest, Trustworthy, courteous to our students and all that we have contact with. Not all will act this way but people are free to do what they see fit. Bruceand I are not in a position to dictate what senior Hapkidoin should or should not do. The thing that Bruce CAN do is hold a training session and invite all that he would like to invite, Set the agenda and go from there.

Just some thoughts

In peace :asian:

www.millersmudo.com

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Brian:

I couldn't see how that was going to help things. I'm certainly glad to let that go as well. Thanks again.

"......Basically what I'm trying to convey (I guess in vain) is these problems or lack of congruence with words and actions is perhaps a problem that is particularly relevent to you but not others. People are getting along better than you've expirenced. The crux is that people are not getting along with you as well as you would like or contributing to the projects that you think are important. I.E. if someone else had brought up minimum standards perhaps it would have gone further......"

I agree with what you are saying, and to make things a bit easier to think about, how about if we took me and put me at one end of a continuum. Make me an extreme "right" or extreme "left".(I'm not too particular. I bet someone could make a good arguement either way. :rolleyes: ). Now moving back from that extreme towards the middle (the 68% centered around the middle of the "Bell Curve") I would say most folks are very comfortable in the Middle and that their behaviors are closely related with the groups to which they belong. Then, as you move through the center and back out towards the fringes, I sense that we would get more ardent group members (call them "cultists if you will) and more ardent individualists (call them "loners" or "independents" if you will). So far I have no problem with this distribution. I would suggest only one small tweek. Those 68% in the middle--- I suggest that we simply flip their priorities. Instead of thinking of themselves as group members who coincidentally do an art similar to the guy down the street, they now view themselves as members of a huge art, their group of which tends to focus on polishing a particular aspect of that huge art. What is it we can do about the way in which we transmit our arts to the next generation that will cause this to happen----- without having to start a NEW ART OR ORGANIZATION? Thoughts?

BTW: Opppsss, and a tip-of-the-hat to Todd as well. Thanks, Todd.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[shesulsa]

Gentelmen:

What would you think of a Korean Martial Arts Friendship Association? What you speak of, Mr. Simms, sounds like a higher order one must answer to regarding their actions versus their oaths/promises/creeds.

The concern I see that could arise from an organization of people to whom others must answer or be judged by or affiliated with in response to their actions is that this "governing body" or association or whatever one wishes to call it has say over another person's success. This poses several problems which some of us have already seen (or at least heard of).

Perhaps a friendship association would be a group of persons who encourage the higher actions of Hapkidoin, mudoin and other KMAists striving toward a higher standard. Rather than judge or affiliate, it would merely be a fellowship society wherein positive actions and ideals are discussed and people are supported. But then, that could evolve into or may sound like a cult.

Perhaps we all must ultimately rely on the presence of a higher power and the influence of love and respect and all that we hold high and precious in our lives and go on setting a shining example.

What you are commenting on seeing in Hapkido is happening in all martial arts, really, don't you think? Yes, some are saddened by these events and actions, but all we can do without turning fascist is set the finest example we are able (and in typing this, I am very aware of areas that I need so very much to improve on to set a better example for those around me and those following me).

Just my opinion and, as you say, FWIW. :asian:

[Kumbajah]

Bruce

"I would suggest only one small tweek. Those 68% in the middle--- I suggest that we simply flip their priorities. Instead of thinking of themselves as group members who coincidentally do an art similar to the guy down the street, they now view themselves as members of a huge art, their group of which tends to focus on polishing a particular aspect of that huge art."

Not such a small tweak. Ask the majority to flip their priorities. If you can't see that you are trying to bend people's practice to your vision with statements like this - me repeating it not going to help.

Actually I think most people do view it this way. No one thinks they have all the answers they have the knowledge / interpretation they received from their master they try to understand it and add to it if possible. Again you tend to your own garden. Share what you have, we all grow.

A couple of token quotes:

Everyone thinks of changing the world, but no one thinks of changing himself. -Leo Tolstoy

But I guess there may be hope for you yet.

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. - George Bernard Shaw

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

".....Not such a small tweak. Ask the majority to flip their priorities. If you can't see that you are trying to bend people's practice to your vision with statements like this - me repeating it not going to help....."

Maybe you are right. I may be asking more of people than they can reasonably accomplish. My thought came out of two places. One was that I thought I had history on my side. The use of a fractured community with each person coming only from high on top of the parapets of his own organization has not done us any good yet. Perhaps the KMA and the Hapkido community are destined to reflect the same clan-like or fractured organizational structure are their land of origin. The other thought was that I seem to hear murmurings of people wanting such a flip albeit generally from the area of Independent practitioners rather than those of long-standing affiliation. As I have said many times in this string, the idea is to find out why people write checks with their intentions that their behaviors can't cash.

Dear Shesula:

Your thought on a Friendship group has a lot of merit. In its simplest form, the Korean Kwan is something like that. Problem with the Kwan Model is that there are some cultural understandings that facilitate it that may not be, or have not been well regarded here in the West. The result is that one winds up with just another KMA roganization that uses the term for effect.

Now one thing I did think about was a Martial Arts "fraternity". Once people got past the PC problem of using the term "fraternity" maybe it wouldn't be so bad. On the other hand I'll bet there will be a hundred volunteers to be in charge setting and handling membership dues, revenues for events and what-not. "Meet the new boss; Same as the old boss...." FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Paul B]

I wouldn't say "flip" their priorities as much as acknowledge that there are certain shortcomings in our approach to each other. Tend to your own garden you say,but all Hapkidoin need to wake up from this little "turf" thing and realize there's more to be gained from "recognizing the next clan over"than not.

Tend to your own garden sounds to me like "ignore it and it will go away". Not the best approach overall,but certainly the one perspective from which we have the most personal control. Just a thought.

[glad2bhere]

Thanks, Paul:

"....I wouldn't say "flip" their priorities as much as acknowledge that there are certain shortcomings in our approach to each other. Tend to your own garden you say,but all Hapkidoin need to wake up from this little "turf" thing and realize there's more to be had....."

OK. I can back off from "flip". Lets start with "baby steps". :-)

On a scale of 1 to 10 most people are "turf sensitive" to what degree? What would you say--- a "7"? an "8"? OK. What would it take to work with the Hapkido culture to bring that sensitivity down to a more moderate "5" or "6"? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Again you tend to your own garden. Share what you have, we all grow.

I don't know I guess I'm in a unique position but think not. I'm part of the Jin Pal Hapkido Federation. GM Kim has affiliations with GM Kim Duk In, GM Han Bon Soo, and GM Hwang Duk-Kyu. They all have their own organizations but there is cross over. Master Kim Beom is part of his father's org and also part of our org. 3 of the 4 GM's came together for the European Chanpionships last year. All 4 are part of the hierarchy of our org.

Now each has their way of doing things ( tending your own garden/ own org.) but also come together and share.

You can see similar relationships with JR and GM Kim He-Young or JR and Rudy, Hal and Fabian or Lugo. Separate orgs but still work for the common good. So from my perspective (68%) things are not as bad as you paint them.

So maybe it is just the fringes that are left out in the cold. So perhaps you could visit in 68% land, you don't have to live here but it can be a nice place to visit.

Brian

[glad2bhere]

You may be right. Maybe things are not as bad as I am painting them. With so many people tending their own gardens, and working together, it should not take any time at all to have-- what--- maybe a common nomenclature? How about a common curriculum? How about at least a uniform curriculum? How about a historically accurate history and lineal "family tree"? How about a commonly accepted and accurate registry of rank and standing among practitioners? After all ALL of the people you have mentioned have been practicing in the Hapkido community for a goodly number of years, and MOST of the people you have mentioned have been the heads of their own organizations for quite some time. But your report is that they all work together, right? I suggest that they all participate in the Illlusion of working together. This is to say that at the minimum they don't get into each others' way or publically get on each others' case. That does not say that they "work together". Just like "not being sad" is not the same as not "being happy", not being in conflict is not the same as working together. Glad to hear that the people you have mentio ned are not at each others throats and that they very comfortably "live and let live". Thats fine. Now lest see them produce some real changes for the Hapkido community. I'm not talking about getting together for a tournament or organizing a seminar. I'm talking about making fundamental change about the way people do business. The Hapkido arts have been around--- under one name or another for four hundred years and the last 50 years have had the most clearly identified network of inter-relationships yet. But folks are no closer to working together now than before, say, the Japanese Occupation. I think you need to reconsider your suggestion that all is well with that 68%. perhaps you have a vested interest in seeing things a particular way and I would be perfectly willing to go along with you if you will just tell me where you buy your Rose-colored glasses--- and how you manage to keep them on for such extended periods of time. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

"Maybe a common nomenclature?"

You were the first to present this as a problem. I think it would be a nice convenience but not necessary or evidence of infighting. I offered my help when you brought it up.

"How about a common curriculum?"

As per literature published on the subject and seminars we seem to be learning the same stuff. Maybe different order but we all get there.

"How about at least a uniform curriculum?"

Different teachers different approaches. Do all, say geometry teachers have to teach the exact same way. I learned euclidian geometry others learned a more modern approach. Did we not both learn geometry?

"How about a historically accurate history and lineal "family tree"?"

Dakin has made one, there's one on Hapkido-info.net most orgs have one. There are many practitioners, some still practicing some not, how deep do you want to go. To what purpose. Most lineage starts at Choi to Ji or ? to ?. "Wanna come in this dojang we need to see your papers"

"How about a commonly accepted and accurate registry of rank and standing among practitioners?"

Well there is the KHF. Granted there has been some problems. But is seems universally accepted. But I'm still not sure to what purpose. So you can jump orgs? So people can feel there rank is as "valid" as the next guys? Ensure quality of teaching? (what do call the guy that graduated last in medical school? Doctor)

As a self described "fringer" I don't understand your need for homogeny. I always thought that variety was the spice of life. This is an art not a science. There will be other approaches. Different body types different applications. It gives us more to draw from. I enjoy seeing another's approach. It gives me insight to the way I learned something, to see the common principles and the value in the different approaches.

You can belittle the cooperation that is there. But again it doesn't speak to your willingness to cooperate. It still sounds like "why aren't people addressing my concerns" My rose colored glasses come from seeing the good and trying to build on that. Not from pointing fingers and saying peoples efforts are lacking.

Peace on you Don Quixote,

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brian:

To the best of my knowledge this is a simple discussion. There is no rancor. I am not belittling or denigrating. Its a discussion. There is no hidden agenda and I certainly don't have any solutions for the Hapkido community in general.

".....As a self described "fringer" I don't understand your need for homogeny...."

Please don't confuse a call for "cooperation" with a call for "homogeny". My premise is very simple. On any good day people in positions of influence espouse harmony, cooperation, understanding and so forth among Hapkido practitioners. When it comes to translating that into behavior, unless there is something to be gained for each individual involved, the leadership does not practice what it preaches. I guess I need to know what part of this simple statement you do not understand. The fact is that every time people point out individuals cooperating its because there is some reward at stake, but that is NOT what these leader preach. I don't see a number of individuals who have been in the Hapkido arts "making nice" though they preach "benevolence to all" to their students.

"....You can belittle the cooperation that is there. But again it doesn't speak to your willingness to cooperate. It still sounds like "why aren't people addressing my concerns" My rose colored glasses come from seeing the good and trying to build on that. Not from pointing fingers and saying peoples efforts are lacking......"

As I say, I am NOT belittling the cooperation that is there. I AM question the motive behind it. I AM asking why it does not come out of the altruistic position that leadership preaches. I AM asking why the same cooperation would not be present if there was not money or corporate success involved.

I think I should also mention, in passing, that I don't see my role here as the person to convince anyone that these thoughts need to be addressed if others don't see the discussion worthy of energy, or if they just don't see anything wrong with how things are. From my viewpoint I see the same bad moves and mistakes being made over and over again. I started a string to talk about why this is. If people don't see this as a problem or are apathetic about addressing it or even talking about it, thats OK with me. So far--- as near as I can tell, you have advised me that there seems to be no problem except, perhaps with me personally. I can live with that. What that comment DOESN'T explain is

why there is still divisiveness and antagonism among people whose interactions I am not part of.

It doesn't explain what the Hapkido community is doing about this propensity --- short of starting ANOTHER organization.

It doesn't explain what the leadership is doing to reconcile differences, what the next generation is doing not to repeat old mistakes, or how individuals are changing their behaviors in their individual schools and lives.

You can certainly lay this at my door like I am the odd man out, but factor me out for a moment and explain to me why the problem still exists. I'm not the only one that sees it. I'm just the only one who wants to talk about it in depth. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

I don't know Bruce, you seem to see ulterior motives in any reaching out or cooperation.In the case of our federation there is no financial gain for each of the GMs. There is no new org that they have combined under. They trained together an now they have reconnected. Maybe they are getting sentimental in their old age. Other schools in our federation don't even funnel test fees to GM Kim, there is no franchise fees etc. I don't understand where you see this lack of practice what they preach.

So this lack of cooperation that you see glaring I'm missing. So this maybe your experience its not mine. Not the experience of the others I mentioned. At one of JR's seminars he took time out side of the group to show me some Tan Jan ho hop that I wasn't familiar with. When the guys came from canada he offered a place to stay. You offered Rudy as an example. What did he have to gain?

You started with abuse of power - buying rank - pedophiles - physical/ verbal abuse- policing ourselves - networking - Seminars are not intense enough for you and now we have come full circle from previous threads - to, I have these great ideas to save Hapkido for future generations how come I can't get anyone to help. (BTW what is a common terminology and common curriculum if not homogeny? )

Basically I saying you are guilty of petitio principii here - People who abuse power don't cooperate - people are not cooperating with me - they are abusing their power.

Are there abuses of power - yes. Are people buying and selling rank - yes. Are people misrepresenting Hapkido - yes. Are there pedifiles in MAs - yes. Is there backbiting - yes.

There are problems. There are problems in the world. Why don't we have a utopian society? Because as much as we we'd like to there are misguided people in the world and Everyone is fallible. We have only so much control. We can control ourselves. We can be try to insure that it doesn't happen in our dojang and in our own org. You pick the weeds where you find them. Learn from the mistakes of those that have gone before and try not to repeat them.

I'm not trying to say you are the problem in the Hapkido world. But perhaps you are the problem in yours.

Brian

[glad2bhere]

Well and Good, Brian. I can live with that. Apparently things are going very well in your corner of the planet. You also seem to recognize that things don't go well in other places. The fact that things don't go well in other places is noted, but apparently is not something that you care to delve into. Thats OK too. The only thing that you did not address is the comment I made about these things existing whether I am noting them or not. I may be wrong, but I know I am not using the cyclic logic you indicate. On the other hand, I wonder if you are not poking at the messenger for the message. I didn't make things the way the are. All I asked was if anyone was intersted in investigating the existence or perpetuation of these conditions. Since you and I are the only ones involved in an extended dialogue--- and you may be more invested in investigating me than the condition, I think I could be forgiven for concluding noone is particualrly interested in discussing this aspect of the Hapkido community---- at least not until there is another unfortunate blow-up. Thanks for the discussion.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[Kumbajah]

Actually if you read through the thread I did delve into the problems as you presented them. Were we diverged was when you presented seminars are not intense as you would like and the lack of cooperation in the Hapkido community. I wasn't taking a poke at you. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean I have something against you. I never said you were the problem in the hapkido community and the root of all evil. I simply don't see the things you presented later in the thread as large problems or abuse of power. I presented that just because you feel passionately about it doesn't mean everyone has to and they were not a valid examples of abuse of power.

I agree this has run its course.

Peace,
Brian

[kwanjang]

My good friend Rudy I could not agree more.... Marriage is the only gift that you still give even after your divorce on a weekly basis....

Whenever someone asks for legal advise I give them My ex-wife's lawyers card ha-ha-ha

Great deal she got the house I got my doboks

Hal whalen

Hello Hal. If I had not had my doboks in my car, she would have had them too lol. Oh well, live and learn.

[kwanjang]

From what I have seen, there are more than a few people who get along great (even though we have some spirited differences to share on forums). I for one have met LOTS of good people in Jackson (and many other places), but perhaps that is because I try to do my best to see the good in everyone who comes to these events. IMHO, just coming to train at these events shows that there is a good martial art heart in there somewhere lol.