Differences Between EPAK and NCK?

[Yeti]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-MikeDon't be fooled into thinking Cerio was certified or trained by Parker, he wasn't.

Cerio Kenpo and EPAK are two very different animals, go to each one and see which one you like best.

DarK LorD

[The Kai]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker. Rough thumbnail sketch, Cerio's kenpo has more of a Karate base to it. But, DKl is right watch and then see what you like

Todd

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker. Rough thumbnail sketch, Cerio's kenpo has more of a Karate base to it. But, DKl is right watch and then see what you like

ToddNo, he was neither trained or certified by Mr. Parker. He may have some sort of a certificate with his name on it as a witness or something but Mr. Parker has never promoted anyone over 8th, and the only man he did that for was Elvis, and there were only 12 7ths at the time of his passing.

DarK LorD

[Goldendragon7]

Actually Nick Cerio was promoted to 9th or 10th Dan by Ed Parker.
Todd
I have to disagree here before this gets too far out of hand...... DKL is correct, Mr. Cerio was never promoted to anything! Certainly not 10th!! However, he (Cerio) approached Mr. Parker and wanted to join the IKKA under Mr. Parker's guidence and was issued a certificate of rank acknowledging the current rank in which Cerio declared [9th Degree] while at the same time {per their agreement} he would be learning the curriculum of EPAK. Shortly after, a disagreement developed and ended the process.
:asian:

[Karazenpo]

Hello, I would like to clear a few things up. First, I feel it's important to establish some crediabilty to answer these questions with a little background. People should know something about the individual who is passing on the information in regards to someone's personal history and reputation. So, here goes. Hanshi Craig Seavey is the co-head of NCK and is in charge of all the schools in the U.S. He was appointed by Nick Cerio's brother, the late Frank Cerio after Mr. Cerio's passing. Craig has been my close friend for over three decades, I made my first black belt in kenpo under his tutledge and we still train together today. Cerio joined Mr. Parker's IKKA around 1966 and became the Rhode Island State Director. Mr. Parker also did a forward in one of Mr. Cerio's early books. They became close friends during this time. Mr. Parker also gave Mr. Cerio an 'intro' to meet Master Bill Chun Sr. who in turn gave an 'intro' for Mr. Cerio to meet Prof. Chow. It was well known that for a period of time they (Cerio & Parker) trained together (Cerio used to take a young black belt student with him to these sessions by the name of Frederick Villari), this information came directly from Cerio to myself in the early 90's. Mr. Parker did indeed promote Mr. Cerio, and it was not 'honorary' either, to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt in "Kenpo Karate", not Ed Parker's Kenpo system. The term, Kenpo Karate, was used rather generically to describe related arts by Mr. Parker. Cerio used to do the same thing only he used "American Kenpo". This was not to be confused with Ed Parker's AK but was what Cerio's original instructor, Mr. George Pesare had called the art he brought to New England circa. 1960. If you trained in his curriculum, he would certify you in NCK but if you studied with him and you were from his original system that Gm. Pesare taught him prior to the advent of NCK, he would rank you in 'American Kenpo' but not NCK. I believe he got this idea from Mr. Parker. Again, this was not only told to me by Professor Cerio but I have seen the original and the copy of his 9th dan certificate signed by Mr. Parker as the instructor who promoted him, NOT a witness. The certificate is completely legit and verfiable. This certificate was given to Craig Seavey with others by Frank Cerio after Professor Cerio's death. I was with Craig the week he got the originals. We were just looking at Cerio's certificates not too long ago at Craig's Framingham school on Waverly St. They are clearly posted on the wall in the reception area as you enter the main dojo. KenpoJoe Rebelo (noted historian and MT member), Sensei Matt Barnes (another noted historian and MT member) and myself have all been at Craig's school and observed the Cerio certificates. This may also be confirmed by NCK historian and webmaster of the NCK site, Shihan John James. As far as the differences in the systems go, Nick Cerio answered this himself in a Q&A in his monthly news letters back in the 90's when someone asked the same question. I still have the newsletter but I'm not at my school right now so I will go by memory and also add whatever knowledge I have on the subject. Prof. Cerio stated that although distinctly different, they are also similiar in many ways sharing a common lineage to Prof. Chow and the Hawaiian derived kenpo systems. Both styles share a 'circulartory' nucleus and have the trademark 'rapid fire' handstriking and low line kicks. NCK techniques, however, are distinguished by ground work and follow ups because Cerio's original black belt was in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. NCK also has the Korean inspired kicking techniques from Cerio's background in Karazenpo and TKD. Cerio stated that although some of his forms were either his own creations or inspired by Karazenpo forms he also used katas and pinans from the traditional karate styles, favoring Shotokan, 'some', but not all, he modified to fit his perspective of the art. He even adopted the Chinese set 'Lin Wan Kune' from Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu. Mr. Parker's first four forms were influenced by Kung Fu stylist Jimmy Woo and the rest were Mr. Parker's own creations. If anyone has any questions of the authenticity of Prof. Cerio's 9th dan from Mr. Parker just e-mail Shihan John James or call Hanshi Craig Seavey by phone at his Framingham, Massachusetts dojo for confirmation. *Also Cerio was not a 9th degree at the time of his promotion from Parker, he was an 8th under Gan Fong Chin with the title of Sifu. We also have this cetificate as well. All I ask is I'm given the benefit of the doubt that my information is accurate and is open for anyone's confirmation if they wish to follow up on what I stated. I stand by this post. Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras

[The Kai]

Thank you, I knew there some involvement between the two, not sure how much or the specifics

Todd

[Karazenpo]

Thank you, I knew there some involvement between the two, not sure how much or the specifics

Todd

Todd, check out my post. We probably posted around the same time and mine just got in ahead of yours, I don't think you saw it yet.

[Karazenpo]

Hello, I went to my documents to retrieve this e-mail that I saved for moments like this, lol, that Shihan John James had sent to someone in response to Prof. Cerio's 10th dan. For the record, Nick Cerio nor his organization has ever stated in any way, shape or form that he received a 10th from Mr. Parker. This is pure b.s.! Sincerely, Prof. Joe



Hello everyone,
Oki-Ryu Kenpo as it is referred to on the East Coast was founded by Shihan Don Rodrigues. His website is http://www.donrodrigueskarateacademy.com. The system was sanctioned by Professor Cerio. As to the post who referred to the World Council of Sokes (who gave Prof. Cerio his 'above ranking' award) as a dan/rank factory, I can only say that you obviously don't know what you are talking about. In 1989, Professor Cerio tested for his title. That's right. It wasn't GIVEN to him and he didn't pay for it. It was bestowed upon him. The World Council has since changed their name twice and is now the World Head Founders/Head Families Council. I do not know what their standards are now or who is on the board now but in 1989 it was VERY hard to get a title/rank from them. You might have them confused with the other Hall of Fames/Societies that make you pay for your award. But this was not the case here. It would be appreciated if you would refrain from such remarks since Professor Cerio is not here to defend himself. An honorable man would abide by this and would also give his name when making such remarks instead of hiding in anonymity.

Thank you.
John James

[Karazenpo]

Please let us also not forget that it was Sijo Adriano D. Emperado, founder of "Kajukenbo" who promoted Mr. Parker to 8th degree black belt in "Kenpo Karate" in the late 60's. This can be confirmed by Sigung John Bishop or by simply going to John's home page and clicking on his interview with Sijo Emperado. This interview is also on the Kajukenbo Cafe. These types of promotions were accepted within the related Hawaiian derived kenpo styles and were not uncommon back then and they still go on today.

[Karazenpo]

While I'm on a roll, lol, please allow me to clear up another false statement. Nick Cerio never approached Ed Parker to join his organization to be recognized as a 9th dan in 1983. Nick Cerio did receive dan ranking certificates back in the mid to late 60's (maybe up to around '70/'71, I'd have to check), when he joined Mr. Parker's IKKA and there were at least two, one for 2nd and the other for 3rd degree black belt. On these, I believe they were promotions and not recognized rank because I don't recall Cerio getting a nidan or sandan from anyone else. As matter of fact, if memory serves me correct, they were IKKA promotions because at that time he received a shodan from Gm. Pesare in 1965 and somewhere around 66-67 he received two other shodans, one from Master Bill Chun Sr. and one from Prof. Chow. These are also on display in Framingham, Ma. Believe me, in all due respect to everyone, I am not looking for a 'flame war' but just trying to set the record straight. If he was one of your instructors I'm sure you would do the same.

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

While I'm on a roll, lol, please allow me to clear up another false statement. Nick Cerio never approached Ed Parker to join his organization to be recognized as a 9th dan in 1983. Nick Cerio did receive dan ranking certificates back in the mid to late 60's (maybe up to around '70/'71, I'd have to check), when he joined Mr. Parker's IKKA and there were at least two, one for 2nd and the other for 3rd degree black belt. On these, I believe they were promotions and not recognized rank because I don't recall Cerio getting a nidan or sandan from anyone else. As matter of fact, if memory serves me correct, they were IKKA promotions because at that time he received a shodan from Gm. Pesare in 1965 and somewhere around 66-67 he received two other shodans, one from Master Bill Chun Sr. and one from Prof. Chow. These are also on display in Framingham, Ma. Believe me, in all due respect to everyone, I am not looking for a 'flame war' but just trying to set the record straight. If he was one of your instructors I'm sure you would do the same.http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/master_alphabetical_list.htm

http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/p/ed_parker.html

Oddly enough, he's not listed anywhere on the EPAK family tree from 1982, why is that?

Pictures, video, something?

DarK LorD

[pete]

Hello, I would like to clear a few things up. First, I feel it's important to establish some crediabilty to answer these questions with a little background. People should know something about the individual who is passing on the information in regards to someone's personal history and reputation. So, here goes. Hanshi Craig Seavey is the co-head of NCK and is in charge of all the schools in the U.S. He was appointed by Nick Cerio's brother, the late Frank Cerio after Mr. Cerio's passing. Craig has been my close friend for over three decades, I made my first black belt in kenpo under his tutledge and we still train together today. Cerio joined Mr. Parker's IKKA around 1966 and became the Rhode Island State Director. Mr. Parker also did a forward in one of Mr. Cerio's early books. They became close friends during this time. Mr. Parker also gave Mr. Cerio an 'intro' to meet Master Bill Chun Sr. who in turn gave an 'intro' for Mr. Cerio to meet Prof. Chow. It was well known that for a period of time they (Cerio & Parker) trained together (Cerio used to take a young black belt student with him to these sessions by the name of Frederick Villari), this information came directly from Cerio to myself in the early 90's. Mr. Parker did indeed promote Mr. Cerio, and it was not 'honorary' either, to the rank of 9th Degree Black Belt in "Kenpo Karate", not Ed Parker's Kenpo system. The term, Kenpo Karate, was used rather generically to describe related arts by Mr. Parker. Cerio used to do the same thing only he used "American Kenpo". This was not to be confused with Ed Parker's AK but was what Cerio's original instructor, Mr. George Pesare had called the art he brought to New England circa. 1960. If you trained in his curriculum, he would certify you in NCK but if you studied with him and you were from his original system that Gm. Pesare taught him prior to the advent of NCK, he would rank you in 'American Kenpo' but not NCK. I believe he got this idea from Mr. Parker. Again, this was not only told to me by Professor Cerio but I have seen the original and the copy of his 9th dan certificate signed by Mr. Parker as the instructor who promoted him, NOT a witness. The certificate is completely legit and verfiable. This certificate was given to Craig Seavey with others by Frank Cerio after Professor Cerio's death. I was with Craig the week he got the originals. We were just looking at Cerio's certificates not too long ago at Craig's Framingham school on Waverly St. They are clearly posted on the wall in the reception area as you enter the main dojo. KenpoJoe Rebelo (noted historian and MT member), Sensei Matt Barnes (another noted historian and MT member) and myself have all been at Craig's school and observed the Cerio certificates. This may also be confirmed by NCK historian and webmaster of the NCK site, Shihan John James. As far as the differences in the systems go, Nick Cerio answered this himself in a Q&A in his monthly news letters back in the 90's when someone asked the same question. I still have the newsletter but I'm not at my school right now so I will go by memory and also add whatever knowledge I have on the subject. Prof. Cerio stated that although distinctly different, they are also similiar in many ways sharing a common lineage to Prof. Chow and the Hawaiian derived kenpo systems. Both styles share a 'circulartory' nucleus and have the trademark 'rapid fire' handstriking and low line kicks. NCK techniques, however, are distinguished by ground work and follow ups because Cerio's original black belt was in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo. NCK also has the Korean inspired kicking techniques from Cerio's background in Karazenpo and TKD. Cerio stated that although some of his forms were either his own creations or inspired by Karazenpo forms he also used katas and pinans from the traditional karate styles, favoring Shotokan, 'some', but not all, he modified to fit his perspective of the art. He even adopted the Chinese set 'Lin Wan Kune' from Sil Lum Pai Kung Fu. Mr. Parker's first four forms were influenced by Kung Fu stylist Jimmy Woo and the rest were Mr. Parker's own creations. If anyone has any questions of the authenticity of Prof. Cerio's 9th dan from Mr. Parker just e-mail Shihan John James or call Hanshi Craig Seavey by phone at his Framingham, Massachusetts dojo for confirmation. *Also Cerio was not a 9th degree at the time of his promotion from Parker, he was an 8th under Gan Fong Chin with the title of Sifu. We also have this cetificate as well. All I ask is I'm given the benefit of the doubt that my information is accurate and is open for anyone's confirmation if they wish to follow up on what I stated. I stand by this post. Thank you. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras
please use the return key or indent paragraphs or something. your posts are informative but very hard on the eyes to read.

[Karazenpo]

Ya, Pete, you're right. Sorry about that, I've got a habit of doing that, I'll try to break it, lol. Thanks. Joe

[rmcrobertson]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

[Karazenpo]

http://www.geocities.com/ikkorg/master_alphabetical_list.htm

http://www.kenponet.com/flame/tree/p/ed_parker.html

Oddly enough, he's not listed anywhere on the EPAK family tree from 1982, why is that?

Pictures, video, something?

DarK LorD

DKL, good question, don't know but then don't know what protocol was followed. Remember, Cerio was never, ever ranked in EPAK but Kenpo Karate, maybe those on the tree are students who studiied the EPAK curriculum. I have pictures, yes, there are many. Cerio and Parker together were in several of his NCK Newsletters and like I stated before, he wrote a nice forward in one of Cerio's books. Cerio did indeed run the whole New England branch of the IKKA for Parker in those early years. DKL, if I had a doubt about this I would say so and it would be for selfish reasons, I wouldn't put my name on the line defending a lie or a myth for Nick Cerio or anyone else for that matter. If I was in doubt or knew something otherwise I'd just shut up and let it go. I have seen these certificates with my own eyes and I was very close to Prof. Cerio. We were guests at each others homes. We doubled. We travelled together. My wife and I threw a birthday roast for him at my house with members from all his schools and past students attending. He helped my wife with a surprise BD for me. I'm only bringing this up to let you know I was no outsider looking in believing things on blind faith only. I knew this guy! Hey, there were somethings we didn't agree on either and that stays with him and I but Nick Cerio's connection with Ed Parker was legit, all of it. Nick ended up giving names to his techniques just like Mr. Parker did, Cerio's original system never used names. He also drifted to the Chinese arts like Mr. Parker. When he received his 8th with the title of Sifu from Sifu Gan Fong Chin he was only one of three that Sifu Chin awarded such a high rank and title. Parker had an influence on him and his system and Cerio openly admitted this. He referred to Parker as his coach and stated he helped him create NCK. I'll tell you someone who 'lived it' and is perfectly honest when asked anything about the Professor, his ex wife Nancy Lee Cerio Ambrosia form Rhode Island. We're all getting together on the 29th of this month to honor Prof. Cerio in Massachusetts at his legacy memorial, I wish you could attend. One of his very early black belts will also be there, Donny Rodrigues, along with Nancy and many others. They could all confirm this. Sincerely, Prof. Joe Sorry pete, I did it again, habit, I'll work on it.

[Michael Billings]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike Facinating info y'all, but way, way over the thread starter's head ... and probably not very useful at this time in his Kenpo development. You can request a new thread be started and split this off, or you can bring it down a notch for the Kenpo newby.

I respect your loyalty and need to "respond", however, not on this thread please. Back to topic.

Yeti, with your history in the arts, I also recommend you go observe both classes on a couple of different nights and see which would be the better fit for you.

-Michael

[Karazenpo]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

Yeah, Robert, let me elaborate on that a little. Cerio originally came from Pesare who came from Gascon and Kajukenbo and as you know, judo and jui jitsu are two of the arts that make up Kajukenbo. Gascon also had a first level ranking in Judo prior to Kajukenbo. Pesare too, was very into judo. Mat work was stressed from day one in these schools more than in the AK studios. In many of our techniques after the entry and counter attack we usually takedown and follow up as the attacker lay prone on the ground. That's why sometimes we're accused of overkill but we tell students the counterattack can be stopped at any time, we just do follow up in case we need it then it's programmed into us.

Back when I started my instructor would scream at us if we took someone down and didn't follow up! It's an emphasis in our system. I wasn't implying EPAK was deficient in takedowns and follows, I was just answering the question on the differences in the arts. I have found in my studies that all these kenpo/kempo arts are very similiar conceptually, it's usually where the emphasis lies that makes them different in some ways. Take care, Prof. Joe

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Yeah, Robert, let me elaborate on that a little. Cerio originally came from Pesare who came from Gascon and Kajukenbo and as you know, judo and jui jitsu are two of the arts that make up Kajukenbo. Gascon also had a first level ranking in Judo prior to Kajukenbo. Pesare too, was very into judo. Mat work was stressed from day one in these schools more than in the AK studios. In many of our techniques after the entry and counter attack we usually takedown and follow up as the attacker lay prone on the ground. That's why sometimes we're accused of overkill but we tell students the counterattack can be stopped at any time, we just do follow up in case we need it then it's programmed into us.

Back when I started my instructor would scream at us if we took someone down and didn't follow up! It's an emphasis in our system. I wasn't implying EPAK was deficient in takedowns and follows, I was just answering the question on the differences in the arts. I have found in my studies that all these kenpo/kempo arts are very similiar conceptually, it's usually where the emphasis lies that makes them different in some ways. Take care, Prof. Joe
So exactly how much experience do you have with any 1st gen students of Parker, or better yet, how many hours have you trained EPAK? I've seen videos of Cerio and Villari and they do nothing similar to what I do, in fact, it seemed very primitive and ineffective against a reasonably trained fighter, especially one who had grappling or Wing Chun experience. I did try the techniques I saw, and used them on resisting opponents, absolutely no joy, and saw even more when I played the dummy (UKE) and took them in a second person context. I evaluated from all points of view and found them to be unsound for my use.

DarK LorD

[KenpoDave]

The claim that Mr. Parker's kenpo has neither, "follow-ups," nor ground-work looks a bit odd, given a) the nature of individual techniques such as 5 swords, b) the technique endings, c) the repertoire of take-downs, buckles, sweeps, etc., d) Long Form 5, e) actual practices in kenpo studios.

I don't recall seeing this claim made.

[KenpoDave]

In the interest of being sort of on topic, one of my black belts lives about 200 miles from my school and only makes it over monthly for classes. Therefore, during the rest of month, he utilizes the facility of an NCK school near his home. He works out there and trains in a few of their classes, and he and some of the guys trade knowledge.

Basically, the kenpo that they practice there uses alot of ground follow-ups. On the surface, the striking looks the same, but the sequences are different, and seem to be designed specifically to lead to groundwork.

Therefore, I would say that you will see less groundwork at an EPAK school than an NCK school and more kenpo at an EPAK school.

BTW, Al Tracy recently promoted the instructor of this particular NCK school to 8th dan. Not in Tracy's Kenpo, but Kenpo.

[Karazenpo]

So exactly how much experience do you have with any 1st gen students of Parker, or better yet, how many hours have you trained EPAK? I've seen videos of Cerio and Villari and they do nothing similar to what I do, in fact, it seemed very primitive and ineffective against a reasonably trained fighter, especially one who had grappling or Wing Chun experience. I did try the techniques I saw, and used them on resisting opponents, absolutely no joy, and saw even more when I played the dummy (UKE) and took them in a second person context. I evaluated from all points of view and found them to be unsound for my use.

DarK LorD

First of all, thank you for your input KenpoDave. Well DKL, looks like you and I have the SAME experince in each others art because I've seen videos too, lol. So that puts my opinions on the same track as yours. The only thing I can tell you is I have to apply my art to my profession so I can't work on theory alone plus I think it suicide to use 'Raining Lance' on the street, looks good in some of the videos though but will get you filleted in reality fighting. Okay, you got in your shot and I got in mine.

See, this is what I didn't want to happen. Why do some people have to start flaming on forums? Okay, Mike Billings told us we're way off track and he's right. Just let it go and besides there's nothimg more to be said. Send me a pm if you feel it neccessary and I'll get back to you tommoro, going out now. Take care, Prof. Joe

[Thunderbolt]

No, he was neither trained or certified by Mr. Parker. He may have some sort of a certificate with his name on it as a witness or something but Mr. Parker has never promoted anyone over 8th, and the only man he did that for was Elvis, and there were only 12 7ths at the time of his passing.

DarK LorDi have to agree with DL here. From what I understand, the reason why EP promoted NC was NC helped EP extend his business in East Coast. The same thing happened to EP when Emperado promoted EP for helping Kajukenbo do *business*.

[rmcrobertson]

Uh, Kenpodave, please see the first post by "karazempo," page 1 of this thread:

"Both styles share a 'circulartory' nucleus and have the trademark 'rapid fire' handstriking and low line kicks. NCK techniques, however, are distinguished by ground work and follow ups because Cerio's original black belt was in Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, a direct subsystem of Kajukenbo."

Here's my problem; going down the list of orange belt techniques (24/belt level system), we find:

1. Cl. Feathers: no takedown, no ground follow up. Base technique includes pin/strike of stiffened grabbing hand.
2. Triggered Salute: no takedown; ending attacks legs. Base tech includes pin/strike to face in response to a push with a stiffened right arm.
3. Dance of Death: base technique takes opponent to ground, follows up with kneels and strikes to knee and groin. Ending turns supine attacker over, "dances," on back and extremities.
4. Gift of Destruction: no inherent takedown/ground follow-up in base or ending.
5. Locking Horns; base tech is defense against head grab/attempted shove to ground/suplex?. Ending involves takedown, attacks to downed opponent's ankles/legs.groin.
6. Lone Kimono: No inherent takedown. However, technique responds to opponent's grab/punch, often seen on gorund.
7. Glancing Salute: Response to cross-push. Base attacks opponent's jaw; ending attacks legs, breaks wrist grab.
8. Five Swords: No inherent take-down, ground follow up. However, technique is emblematic of, "follow-up," i.e. sequential flow. Sometimes taught at LT studio (thanks, Big Alex!) as "follow-up," to a recovery by the opponent following Encounter With Danger, with opponent throwing punch as defender gets up following push down.
9. Scraping Hoof: response to attempted full nelson (first stage); ending buckles opponent to ground, follows up with thrusting kick.
10. Grip of Death: response to side head-lock; base technique ideally drops opponent to ground; ending attacks legs/drops opponent.
11. Crossing Talon: ending takes opponent to ground with wrist lock; follow-up roundhouse kick.
12. Shielding Hammer: No inherent take-down. (I'm going to abbreviate the nature of the techniques from here.)
13. Striking Serpent's Head: ending buckles opponent to knee, drops him/her to ground with accompanying left downward/right horizontal hammer-fists.
14. Thrusting salute: no inherent takedowns/ground follow-ups.
15. Locked Wing: response to att. hammer-lock by opponent (one assumes that all locks, grabs, etc. have their ground application, when executed in different context/plane/axis); ending takes opponent to knee, drops to ground with kneee to collar-bone.
16. Obscure Wing: ending involves head-lock of opponent, throw to ground followed by front cross (stepping on arm/leg, etc. as needed), knee to groin, soccer-style kick to jaw.
17. reversing mace: downward looping roundhose kick to top of calf followed up by an ending specifically meant to put opponent on knees/attack further.
18. Thrusting prongs: response to bear hug; ending involves head-locking opponent.
19. Twisted Twig: response to arm-lock; ending throws opponent to ground, follows up with a sert of punches/kickes delivered to opposite sides of body.
20. Obscure Sword: technique ending buckles opponent's leg, followed by throwing him/her to knees then face down on ground, followed by attacks to legs.

....OK, I bored too...but the last couple of techniques--Crashing Wings, Rpt. Mace., Raining Claw, all have endings that specifically take the opponent to the ground and follow up that move.

Nor does this only happen at Orange--and, it might be noted, Forms 4, 5 (especially) and 6 ALL contain multiple responses to ground opponents.

It's quite true that the obvious system does not have much that starts on the ground, or explcitly escapes from the ground: was that what was meant?

Hence, my disagreement

[Michael Billings]

2nd Warning. Please remain on topic or use the report a post function and ask a Super Moderator or Administrator to split the thread.

-Michael Billings
MT Super Moderator

[Thunderbolt]

I hardly see why people's posts here are OFF topic. I personally think they are a good comparision between EPAK and NCK. Don't have to split it.

I'm very interested to see more similarity and difference between these 2 styles.

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi all...I come from a Korean MA backgrount (TKD, Tang Soo Do, Han Mu Do) but have recently developed a keen interest in Kenpo. I live relatively close to two schools...one being an EPAK based school, the other a NCK based school. Since I'm relatively new to all of this, I'm hoping someone can shed some light on the differences between two "styles" (for lack of a better term). From what I can gather, it seems the NCK schools have maintained a bit of Shotokan in that they practice Pinan forms etc. Do EPAK schools also train these forms or is that distinctly NCK? What are some of the other major differences (if any...I know Prof. Cerio was certified under Ed Parker). Also, do both schools use a lot of joint locking techniques, or basically just strikes/takedowns?

Thanks in advance for your input. I'm trying to make an informed decision about the next step in my MA journey.

-Mike
Well, looking at the original question it appears that we are on topic.

DarK LorD

[Karazenpo]

Hello Robert & Thunderbolt, I would like to respond to your posts but then I'm going to back off from this topic only because this is the second warning we got from the moderator and I don't want to upset the applecart. They have been pretty good to me over the years. Plus, to be honest, it will only be like beating a dead horse, we all have our opinions and perspectives of things and that's not a bad thing. Okay............

Thunderbolt, that may have been true back in, let's say, '66 to maybe '74 when Mr. Cerio received a couple of degrees from Mr. Parker but not true in 1983 for his 9th and here's why. By 1974 Professor Cerio officially founded Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. From then on there was NO WAY he would promote someone elses' art, no way........would you if you were him? Of course not! From 1974 on, he promoted ONLY NCK. I grant you, in those early years, specifically the mid to late 60's Cerio was instrumental in propagating Parker's art in New England, no doubt about it and yes, that very well could have influenced his early ranks with the IKKA but not over a decade and a half later and nine years after the advent of NCK. Like all of us, Prof. Cerio made some mistakes but that would have been pure stupidity and he wasn't a stupid man. Let's please give him that much.

Thunderbolt, as far as Sijo Emperado goes, from what I understand he awarded Mr. Parker his 8th dan for what Mr. Parker contributed to the Kenpo world in general, not Kajukenbo! Could he do it? Why not, he was not only Parker's senior but Prof. Chow's first black belt.

A previous question on Mr. Cerio not being on Mr. Parker's lineage trees would again be most likely because Cerio was awarded the 9th much like Emperado awarded Parker his 8th. Mr. Parker did not know the Kajukenbo curriuculum and Mr. Parker does not show up on Sijo Emperado's Kajukenbo Family Tree either but it has been confirmed he certainly made his 8th from him.

Robert, long post you had, whew! but a good one! Again, I'm not saying EPAK is deficient in takedowns and followups, that is a misunderstanding, all I am saying, as a matter of fact, Robert, I'm not saying it, I was quoting directly what Mr. Cerio stated in that 1990's Q&A column in his Newsletter. Cerio's roots are from a direct offshoot of Kajukenbo and it's pretty well accepted that Kajukenbo does place a more heavier emphasis on groundfighting, that's all, no big thing! Karazenpo and Kajukenbo has low line kicks and the flashier Korean inspired kicks but if I were to compare the two styles to Tae Kwon Do I would have to say TKD puts a stronger emphasis on their kicking techniques, know what I mean?

KenpoDave, again, thanks for the input. The only thing I can say about EPAK having more Kenpo and NCK having more grappling per se is this. Cerio's original art was KGS and it was based on the 'original Emperado method Kajukenbo. This style started to take shape in 1958 and was pretty much moving by 1960. Mr. George Pesare brought it out to New England in the very early 60's. Look at Parker's book published in 1961: Kenpo Karate Law of the Fist & Empty Hand and also look at his book The Secrets of Chinese Karate published in 1963. These books certainly don't reflect EPAK today but they were technically the 'original stuff' that triggered what EPAK eventually evolved into. Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu and Shaolin Kempo still maintain pretty much this original method material with some modification BUT it also has the 'newer stuff', the rapid fire multiple hand strikes as found in the legendary form Hansuki (a product of the 60's). NCK has kept some of the older tradition in some forms and techniques but has also evolved much further. I did several seminars traveling with Cerio in the early to mid 90's called "The Kenpo Hands" and the 'Continuous Returning fFst (Lin Wane Kune in Chinese) of Kenpo Karate. These techniques were ALL kenpo and had kenpo's signature moves.

I guess, we all (and I'm including myself!) have to experience one's entire system before we pass opinion or judgement on it as to what it contains and what it doesn't, what is it's strengths and what is it's weaknesses but we should never fall into the mentality of my dad can beat up your dad or my car is better than your car, whatever. We can go on to study our individual arts extensively and hardcore for the next ten years and all get together and pair off to fight, and I mean to fight for real, and the victor will go to the inherently better fighter and the man with the most heart not whether you study KGS, NCK or EPAK.

One last thing in defense of my lineage and it's founders techniques goes back to 1974. The Professional Karate Association-the PKA-which was the FIRST organization to bring the world kickboxing which back then was called: Full Contact Karate. It was televised on regular network stations and introduced Joe Corley and Bill 'Superfoot' Wallace to the world. Nick Cerio's instructor, George Pesare (Region 12 Representative of the PKA) who brought Sonny Gascon's system to New England that Fred Villari now calls Shaolin Kempo Karate, produced two World Kickboxing Champions in the likes of Dan Macaruso (light heavyweight who defeated the legendary Jeff Smith for the title) and a very young Bob Ryan who won the World Welterweight division defeating superstars like Ernie Hart Jr. Thing is, Danny Mac was defeating guys like Smith, Demetrius 'Oaktree' Edwards and all the time Danny was a BROWN belt. John Levesque was a BROWN belt and TKO'd the legendary Japanese karate master Hidy Ochiai in his first kickboxing match. All this with done with our original Hawaiian Shaolin Kempo method of KGS. Not too bad, I think.

Out of respect to the moderators I'm closing out as they suggested but if anyone wishes to discuss things further either pm me or drop me a line at jshuras@hotmail.com In the words of Capt. James T. Kirk: "It was fun." Respectfully, Prof. Joe

[Thunderbolt]

karazenpo,

thank you for responding. I don't see any of yours and other's OFF topic. Infact, all of yours are ON the topic. You and other tried to answer the question of an original POSTER.

I'm sure that this person wants to know the different and similarity between EPK and NCK so that he/she can choose what to study.

Suddenly, mod came in with a second warning for NO reason and everything will be discussed in private manner. If i am an original poster, how can i make my own decision about whether i choose NCK or EPK when everybody either stops discussing or does it privately.?

[The Kai]

Off topic, but I noticed that GM Castro> GM Alemany>Gm Jordan are listed in The Ed Parker fanily tree

Todd

[Karazenpo]

karazenpo,

thank you for responding. I don't see any of yours and other's OFF topic. Infact, all of yours are ON the topic. You and other tried to answer the question of an original POSTER.

I'm sure that this person wants to know the different and similarity between EPK and NCK so that he/she can choose what to study.

Suddenly, mod came in with a second warning for NO reason and everything will be discussed in private manner. If i am an original poster, how can i make my own decision about whether i choose NCK or EPK when everybody either stops discussing or does it privately.?

You're very welcome, Thunderbolt. I got this off the NCK website posted by Shihan John James, then we should close this out as requested.

In 1969, Master Parker tested Professor Cerio for his Sandan (3rd black belt) sanctioned by the IKKA. The rank was also sanctioned by the American Karate Association (AKA) of which Master Parker and Master Lieb were Directors.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Now for the big relevancy challenge...SO WHAT? Of course the cirricula are different. There were a bunch of guys who split from Parker over the years, or were asked to leave, yet maintained business or cordial ties. If Cerio and Parker were last technically associated waaay back (if ever), then it stands to reason thier respective systems offer different stuff.

Lets try a re-cap...Did Chow teach as he was taught under Mitose? No. Did they maintain organizational and content loyalties? No.

Chow to Parker...same material? No. Organizational loyalties? No. Does that detract from AK? No.

Parker to whomever, including a dozen or so "seniors" from the past...get the point?

At some point in time, when a person decides to bail on the fold and do their own thing, they stop representing the interests and teachings of the person whose gig they bailed on. Why would anybody from NCK give a witches teat about prior connections to Parker? Are they seeking membership to the IKKA? Do your own thing, and let the past die already. I don't see NCK guys claiming to train IKKA material, so who cares?

1. The systems are different.

2. Kenpo has become a generic term; some is very "parker-esque", more is not...including many "Parker" schools that think they are.

Take a look at both, see what you like, make up your own mind, and start your journey. The rest is more a picture of political bickering at it's ugliest, than it is informing or enlightening.

Regards,

Dave