Kenpo, and Krav Maga

[RCastillo]

In the publications I've seen, Krav Maga looks alot like Kenpo, in it's movements, and philosophy. Are they related in some way?

I'd appreciate your comments, and enlightenment.

A Student of Kenpo:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

translated is Ed Parker in Russian.

:rofl:

[meni]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

translated is Ed Parker in Russian.

:rofl:


Funny, but here is more accurate translation Krave is in Hebrew

For combat
And Maga is again in Hebrew for touch

And originally was used by the IDF.


And as far as I know the Israeli instructors are adopting what ever they can from everywhere.

When it a matter of life and death like it is in Israel right now you don’t have a choice and specifically with those terrorist around

[Robbo]

http://www.krav-maga.com/imi.htm

I haven't seen enough of Krav Maga to make a judgement regarding whether it moves like Kenpo.

But....could it be because both the arts are dedicated to what works and what is practical? And if they are, then it is no wonder that they 'move' the same. They would be following the same principals and rules.

I wonder if that is enough for the arts to seem similiar or whether there has to be a 'sharing' of knowledge at some point from one instructor to another.

Seems like a justification for both arts.

Thanks,
Rob

[Rainman]

In the publications I've seen, Krav Maga looks alot like Kenpo, in it's movements, and philosophy. Are they related in some way?

Sure. Secrets of Chinese Karate, Infinite Insights 1-5, and all the tapes everyone has out.

:asian:

[Robbo]

Sure. Secrets of Chinese Karate, Infinite Insights 1-5, and all the tapes everyone has out.

Are you saying the people who practise Krav Maga read all this information and incorporated it into their art? I haven't done alot of research into this but wasn't it developed in Isreal during WWII?

Rob

[Rainman]

Are you saying the people who practise Krav Maga read all this information and incorporated it into their art? I haven't done alot of research into this but wasn't it developed in Isreal during WWII

Began in Europe with grecco roman wrestling and grew from there. I have seen early and recent footage my opinion is it looks like early Kenpo.

:asian:

[Robbo]

Rob
Sure. Secrets of Chinese Karate, Infinite Insights 1-5, and all the tapes everyone has out.

Okay, it looks like early Kenpo but where do the books and videos that you mentioned come into it.

[Rainman]

wonder if that is enough for the arts to seem similiar or whether there has to be a 'sharing' of knowledge at some point from one instructor to another

Uhh, how do you think material on the open market effects and influences people? Are you thinking Mr. Parkers material has not influenced many other arts? Krav is just one, it is easily seen. Can't tell you anymore than that, research it and come to your own conclusions.

[Goldendragon7]

To being just plain good stuff!!

:asian:

[KenpoDave]

If Krav Maga is indeed an art that focuses on self defense, I would not be surprised to find similarities between it and Kenpo. Peyton Quinn once remarked that people who study the martial arts with an emphasis on self defense eventually come to the same conclusions.

Dave :asian:

[Kirk]

I've seen some stuff about it. I've seen weekend seminars that
offer instructor's certifications upon completion, regardless of
previous training (if any). McDojo city!!!

I've also seen some that seemed to be pretty decent ... but when
you sign up, you sign a contract that if you become a teacher, you
then have to abide by their rules and regs. Open a school at
x location, do x advertising, do x marketing, etc.

[Rainman]

A CREDIT TO BEING JUST PLAIN GOOD STUFF

Are you pontificating that!? :miffer: :rpo:

:asian:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Robbo



Are you saying the people who practise Krav Maga read all this information and incorporated it into their art? I haven't done alot of research into this but wasn't it developed in Isreal during WWII?

Rob
Israel as we know it today was not formed until after WWII

[GouRonin]

Krav Maga - Has recently been in a movie with Jennifer Lopez where she becomes a kick @ss abused woman who learns KM to beat her abusive down.

Kenpo - Has recently been seen on the World Wrestling Entertainment, (formerly the WWF) as newcomer "The Stylist" is declared as having his black belt in Kenpo and a weapon to himself. He still got his @ss beat by a fat guy in a sumo skirt.

All in all...Lopez looks better.

[meni]

Krav Maga was developed in the early 50's but today in Israeli army (IDF) the train the soldiers in more then one way in order to achieve maximum success and there for they have to maximize their resource so:
When you enroll to the IDF they train you in the most efficient way they can,

In the IDF they don’t use Krav Maga the use an internal system that they call it face to face combat! Or in Hebrew PAP which is an acronym for Panim el Panim.


The Krav Maga system is only for "export” use. And like other martial arts is changed to fit to masses!

but most of the time the idf train you how to use a gun!

Meni

[Rainman]

Krav Maga - Has recently been in a movie with Jennifer Lopez where she becomes a kick @ss abused woman who learns KM to beat her abusive down.

Think she could kick rm robertsons butt? :idunno: Or would she fall asleep listening to him say how he was gonna phd her to death?:p

[Sigung86]

Read an article, last year I think it was, where a Krav Maga instructor got himself killed trying to disarm a knife wielding assailant. Just a thought.

Take care,

Dan

[Robbo]

Uhh, how do you think material on the open market effects and influences people? Are you thinking Mr. Parkers material has not influenced many other arts? Krav is just one, it is easily seen. Can't tell you anymore than that, research it and come to your own conclusions.

Okay, got do some reading on the net about Krav Maga. Nowhere does it credit Kenpo as a influence in the system. Now, I'm not that naive to believe that sound fighting princepals can't exist in two fighting systems but it sounds as if you are saying that KV was influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. From what I've read it was well along before Ed Parker came on the scene, especially in Europe. Now in recent refinements to Krav Maga they may have looked around and said "hey that's cool" we'll use that. But it seems to me that it is a stand alone system and doesn't owe Kenpo anything. Just because Mr. Parker didn't make it or influence it doesn't make it a bad thing.

As always correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Rob

[Rainman]

Okay, got do some reading on the net about Krav Maga. Nowhere does it credit Kenpo as a influence in the system.

Does anyone credit American Kenpo (exception Ken Shamrock) with using elements of AK in their system? A couple of hours reading about their vision on their sight will not give you that information. They are competing with AK for market share. I can flat out see it in thier techniques, it is just missing some "minor" details that gives it a more primitive flavor. That tells me it was not learned from an instructor but by other means.

;)

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Robbo



Okay, got do some reading on the net about Krav Maga. Nowhere does it credit Kenpo as a influence in the system. Now, I'm not that naive to believe that sound fighting princepals can't exist in two fighting systems but it sounds as if you are saying that KV was influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. From what I've read it was well along before Ed Parker came on the scene, especially in Europe. Now in recent refinements to Krav Maga they may have looked around and said "hey that's cool" we'll use that. But it seems to me that it is a stand alone system and doesn't owe Kenpo anything. Just because Mr. Parker didn't make it or influence it doesn't make it a bad thing.

As always correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks,
Rob

Interesting fighters the Israelis... My wife knows a woman, who was, many years ago, a member of the IDF. She was jumped by four Arabs, and took them all out hand to hand.... Got to be someting to it. Just imgagine the civilian version is watered down.

There is also an Israeli self defense art, the Hebrew name escapes me at the moment, but it's name in Hebrew means, "Survive". It's pretty rough and tumble too.

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Rainman
A CREDIT TO BEING JUST PLAIN GOOD STUFF
Are you pontificating that!? :miffer: :rpo:
:asian:

Chad,

If in fact they (Krav Maga) have read Mr. Parker's works and have decided to use it, that is a credit to Ed Parker's Genius!!

I'm in no way acting pompous - I don't see how you get that?

:confused:
:asian:

[Kirk]

Little bit of weird trivia here ... Dr. Ruth Westheimer was a
sniper for the Isreali Army.

[Goldendragon7]

Did she have any experience with Rockets.........

:rofl:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



Chad,

If in fact they (Krav Maga) have read Mr. Parker's works and have decided to use it, that is a credit to Ed Parker's Genius!!

I'm in no way acting pompous - I don't see how you get that?

:confused:
:asian:

Not pompous Dennis! Pontiff! You have to go around spouting Papal Bull or some-such.

Take care,

Saintly Uncle Dan:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

Kenpo Net got you fired up now you are taking it out on me.......

so on guard.........:samurai:


:jediduel:

[Rainman]

I'm in no way acting pompous - I don't see how you get that?

That would be correct, it's called a joke:p

[Goldendragon7]

Man for a moment there, I thought the Dark Kenpo-Net got you too!:rofl: Thanks for the reply..... I can rest easy now!

:asian:

[Rainman]

If in fact they (Krav Maga) have read Mr. Parker's works and have decided to use it, that is a credit to Ed Parker's Genius!!


GD7,

They actually adimitted to it? I have been to thier forums and while they do not nay say AK the KV people do say AK is very complicated.

Got you good didn't I?:rofl:

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

But not you have to go to their site and explain the difference between complicated and sophisticated!!

Kenpo is sophisticated to those in the know..

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Even Moses had problems explaining things to them. :) Jesus still had to come down and give examples to the warnings that Moses laid down.

History may have to be repeated here..... :rofl:

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

A great friend of mine is on the National Board of Directors for Krav Maga. He is a great proponent of Krav as an ex-secret service guy. (I have seen the pictures when he was on the presidential detail and guarding the Pope. Very cool stuff.)

He got me interested in Krav ... but it seems very simplistic compared to Kenpo. Some really good basic self-defense, practiced very hard and effectively. Similar to some of the other systems that are popular now and taking the place of Brazilian rollin' around ... which I also like and think is great fun. The SPEAR system and RAD systems which also focus on a simple hard defense - followed by elbows, finger, knees etc. to vital targets. Good stuff for what it is, and extremely marketable right now.

The National Association is holding the reins very tight right now. I think they watched Tae-Bo and Aero-Kickboxing etc. and learned from the problems marketing those, i.e. they got out of the owner's hands.

Kenpo is a complete system, logical, effective, with simple, critical thinking in terms of attack-response scenerios ... not to mention the Kenpo Fantasy that the guy is still standing up after the first few strikes, stick with what you are doing. American Kenpo has it all, and what it doesn't, can still be acquired and absorbed if you are interested in doing it. Personally, I just don't have enough years left to learn all I want to about Kenpo. Been AT it since 1979 and still have loads to learn.

Peace Yall,
-Michael B.
UKS-Texas

[Goldendragon7]

that's where they got thier info from... Texas.... I should have known!

:rofl:

[Michael Billings]

... and believe me these guys are. It is very much a business to them, with franchises and all the problems this causes. They are sure they have the best "product" out there. I just smile and think about breaking their knees... not really. Although this guy is a good friend, we seldom talk about martial arts over an hour at a time every time we see each other. And it has really cut down lately.

Michael

[Goldendragon7]

He may defect!

:shrug:

[Seig]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Even Moses had problems explaining things to them. :) Jesus still had to come down and give examples to the warnings that Moses laid down.

History may have to be repeated here..... :rofl:

:asian:
Yes but God has a way of getting even with people that pick on the "Chosen" so tread lightly:D

[meni]

Originally posted by Seig


Yes but God has a way of getting even with people that pick on the "Chosen" so tread lightly:D



you bet!

[meni]

Originally posted by Sigung86



Interesting fighters the Israelis... My wife knows a woman, who was, many years ago, a member of the IDF. She was jumped by four Arabs, and took them all out hand to hand.... Got to be someting to it. Just imgagine the civilian version is watered down.

There is also an Israeli self defense art, the Hebrew name escapes me at the moment, but it's name in Hebrew means, "Survive". It's pretty rough and tumble too.

Dan

in hebrew=Hiesardut.

[Robbo]

I wonder if we could offer a stripped down version of Kenpo for the crash weekend course....call it Kenpo Light.

:rofl:

Rob

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Robbo

I wonder if we could offer a stripped down version of Kenpo for the crash weekend course....call it Kenpo Light.

:rofl:

Rob

Hi Rob,

Actually, I taught a good basic self defense course for folks that don't want a black belt in about 4 hours. It's was pretty good as something to give to women and folks like school teachers. No ... It turned no one into Bruce Lee, but did give some edge to their view of their surroundings and the requirements to survive.

And thanks to Meni for reminding me of what I had forgotten.
:asian:

Dan

[brianhunter]

>Kenpo - Has recently been seen on the World Wrestling >Entertainment, (formerly the WWF) as newcomer "The Stylist" is >declared as having his black belt in Kenpo and a weapon to >himself. He still got his @ss beat by a fat guy in a sumo skirt.

Yeah I watched the same episode of smackdown in earnest to see if he would show anything kenpo related 2 hours of my life I will never get back......all I seen was "dividing the cheeks" when he was sat on by the 500 lb samoan! :idunno:

[donald]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael Billings

[
He got me interested in Krav ... but it seems very simplistic compared to Kenpo. Some really good basic self-defense, practiced very hard and effectively. Similar to some of the other systems that are popular now and taking the place of Brazilian rollin' around ... which I also like and think is great fun. The SPEAR system and RAD systems which also focus on a simple hard defense - followed by elbows, finger, knees etc. to vital targets. Good stuff for what it is, and extremely marketable right now.

Is'nt simplicity in action the best form of defense? How many here who have had to use kenpo in a real situation, got "sophisticated" in their response? My educated guess would be VERY few, if any at all! All the terminology, fancy stance changes etc.. Don't beat just plain old straight ahead FERIOCITY... Move,feint,parry, groin shot, palm to the face, etc.,etc.. Nothing fancy just good clean straight ahead kenpo...

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

He may defect!

:shrug:

I will defect, for MONEY, TONS OF IT!:2pistols:

[Goldendragon7]

going to hire me as your bodyguard?

:asian:

[clvlkenpo]

Krav Maga definately is not Kenpo. All you have to do is look in any black belt mag and see them showing a usless and dangerous defense against a gun attack that would only get you killed if you tried to do it that way. Remember, Krav Maga was not designed to be really complete or even very sophisticated, it was designed to be easily taught to novices in small blocks of time that is available to military students. All the US armed forces do the same thing. They teach a watered down "system" that is not too complicated, doesn't require much practice, doesn't go into "the why" of doing things, just how to do it , read that monkey see monkey do. I speak as a 23 year Marine Corps veteran and I know that the only military guys I know that are any good at martial arts are the ones that do off-duty training, and a lot of it. Remember, all military org's assume that you are going to have weapons and lots of them, not unarmed combat.

Rob

[Kirk]

Originally posted by clvlkenpo

I speak as a 23 year Marine Corps veteran and I know that the only military guys I know that are any good at martial arts are the ones that do off-duty training, and a lot of it. Rob

Are you a real Devil Dog, or didja go to boot in Hollywood?

ONLY KIDDING!!!

When did you go in, and when did you get out?

When did you shake it all about? :rofl: :rofl:

[Seig]

You ain't just whistling Dixie. When I was in the Coast Guard (Didn't know SGM Parker was a Coastie too), I was on a baording team. The crap they tried to teach us as self-defense was just enough to get someone seriously hurt against an experienced fighter.

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

going to hire me as your bodyguard?

:asian:

Yup, I can be the "next " Elvis, and you can escort me all over the place.;)

[Michael Billings]

It is not the simplicity I have a problem with - it is the idea that they are "Complete" martial artist with this training. It was designed as a fairly simplistic, effective, system that could be taught to civilians in a short period of time.

Some of us in Kenpo could have hurt someone seriously before we ever started, or shortly thereafter. Then we learned enough to require a serious cataloging of injuries, now after a bunch of years, it is simple again (at least most of the time), and I have options open as to contact manipulation, changing targets, weapons, and amount of force utilized. Simple self-defense is not always so simple, or so black and white as we like to be able to present it. Trashing someone with elbows and knees is not always the appropriate response pattern to fall into. More time in whatever art, gives you time to train psychologically and learn variable response patterns which can be used as needed. That is my real hang up on Krav, the illusion of self-confidence. Some are great fighters, no matter what system they would be doing.

No answers, just noting another marketable fad. One I actually like better than some of the others that have passed this past decade.

-Michael
UKS-Texas

[clvlkenpo]

I went in in April 69 and retarded oops retired in 1999.

Yes I was a Hollywood Marine but Lee Ermey was there with me!

Rob

[Kirk]

Originally posted by clvlkenpo

I went in in April 69 and retarded oops retired in 1999.

Yes I was a Hollywood Marine but Lee Ermey was there with me!

Rob

Were you connected with the air wing at all?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
That is my real hang up on Krav, the illusion of self-confidence.


That sums it up!

:asian:

[Seig]

I don't think it is an illusion of self-confidence. It does seem to give that. It seems to be more an illusion of competence.

[clvlkenpo]

Yes I was in the air wing and then artillery.

rob

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Seig

I don't think it is an illusion of self-confidence. It does seem to give that. It seems to be more an illusion of competence.

Competence is only an illusion if you do not work to make it real.

It still boils down, I think, to the fact that the man makes the system, and not the other way around. I'm not trying to defend Krav Maga, or any other system. But I suspect that it is possible to do a fairly passable job of defending yourself with whatever "tool/system" you have had training in, if you do practice it and make it a part of you.

Most of us tend to think that Kenpo is the best there is...That's because, fundamentally, it struck a chord in us somewhere, and we, therefore, practice it to make it work. There are people in other systems that work just as hard and their system is just as effective for them.

Just some thoughts!

Dan

[donald]

Mr.Seig,

I think your answer is a bullseye... You don't have to own a 3000.00 tool set. To make you a good mechanic, but when you've run out of WD40, and really need to bust something loose. I believe we would all rather have the forged Craftsmen. Instead of the 6.95 flea market special! Does this anology make sense to any other than me? :shrug:

[Seig]

Yes you make sense. It's not the art that is superior, it is the artist.

[Roland]

Jennifer Lopez while she shows off her
Krav Maga in her new movie!!!


:)

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Roland

Jennifer Lopez while she shows off her
Krav Maga in her new movie!!!


:)

Hey,

Systems that pull in women that look like that can't be all that bad...

jb:D

[Roland]

she could not remember any of her moves from Krav Maga.
She filmed the movie last year, and has not continued to train.
So sad really.

:(

[Ronin]

Jennifer Lopez man she sure has back-up mass if you know what i mean :)

[Goldendragon7]

there are several out there that probably Krav her Maga........ but not me.

:asian:

[Seig]

me neither

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

there are several out there that probably Krav her Maga........ but not me.

:asian:

Hey, Do I have to call Captain Sanchez to restoe order? This is not "Animal House!":mad:

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by Ronin

Jennifer Lopez man she sure has back-up mass if you know what i mean :)

And she's real proud of it too...............:eek:



:asian:

[Seig]

"What am I now?"...John Belushi

[Ronin]

its a flavor of the month martial art but what a representative :)

[Goldendragon7]

she's bottomed out!:rofl:

:asian:

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

she's bottomed out!:rofl:

:asian:

heheheh

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Seig]

I bet the Krav group is really BEHIND her!

[Goldendragon7]

:rofl:

[Ronin]

you guys are crazy

[Goldendragon7]

To Butt in here......?
:moon:

:rofl:

[Seig]

Nah, he's just being cheeky. I'm glad to see people having fun at J-Lo's expense iinstead of constantly mooning over her.

[Kirk]

In the line of people mooning over her, I'm in the REAR.

[Goldendragon7]

Come on baby ....... you know what I like....
shake it real funky ...... shake it real slow....
Shake it till you cant Krav Maga no more.....

song ends........:rofl:

[Klondike93]

So far you all sound like Sir-Mix-Alot fans

"Baby's got back"


:asian:

[Seig]

Butt when you put that backfield in motion you have 12 players on the field!

[Goldendragon7]

They shoot the moon...... and there would be enough for a lunar landing....:asian:

[Seig]

that would put a total eclipse on the subject

[Kempojujutsu]

In this month BB mag they have several Krav Maga techniques in it. The Techniques they do are almost exactly what we do in Kempojujutsu class. It doesn't matter if you do JKD, Kempo, Krav Maga or any other self defense only art you can come to the same conclusion. Use what works period.
Bob :asian:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

Are you thinking Mr. Parkers material has not influenced many other arts? Krav is just one, it is easily seen. Can't tell you anymore than that, research it and come to your own conclusions.

I find it very difficult to believe that Ed Parker's Kenpo had any influence on Krav Maga. Imi Sde-Or's experiences with boxing, wrestling, etc., and his real-life experiences before and during WW II, gave him the knowledge he needed to develop it. He had been teaching it by 1948 when he was appointed an instructor for the IDF's School of Combat Fitness. This is all well-documented.

At most it's an example of "convergent evolution" as the biologists say, where two organisms develop similar adaptations in response to their needs (e.g., they structure of the eye developed several times independently).

[Rainman]

Originally posted by arnisador



I find it very difficult to believe that Ed Parker's Kenpo had any influence on Krav Maga. Imi Sde-Or's experiences with boxing, wrestling, etc., and his real-life experiences before and during WW II, gave him the knowledge he needed to develop it. He had been teaching it by 1948 when he was appointed an instructor for the IDF's School of Combat Fitness. This is all well-documented.

At most it's an example of "convergent evolution" as the biologists say, where two organisms develop similar adaptations in response to their needs (e.g., they structure of the eye developed several times independently).

That's because your understanding of AK is limited. I can tell when people add to their arts because it looks like a text book version of it minus some important details you can't get from a book. You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous. Convergent evolution no. They did not begin to have a simular appearance until recently.

The 2 day workshops and the like are nothing more than rape prevention classes AK has been doing for years. Believe what you like, as I said before that is what I see. BTW this is a Kenpo forum is it not?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous.

The Israelis had an entire country's worth of resources.



Convergent evolution no. They did not begin to have a simular appearance until recently.

In what ways has Krav Maga changed since its inception in the early days of Israel?


BTW this is a Kenpo forum is it not?

Yes. This means it's for the discussion kenpo, not that such discussion must necessarily be pro-Kenpo. I am not a Kenpoist and I also am not a Krav Maga practitioner--I am disinterested. I am unconvinced that Krav Maga has been significantly influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. The prime users of Krav Maga in its beginning received plenty of feedback as to its utility and no doubt made changes they felt were appropriate and beneficial.

Krav Maga was being taught in 1948, when Mr. Parker was still in high school. While it's modern form may have many newer influences, from for example the book Krav Maga : How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1583940081/qid%3D1024278730/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/104-4044683-1214358) which I have before me together with what I have seen of Kenpo over the years and Jay T. Will's Kenpo Karate for Self-Defense (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500296/qid=1024278834/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4044683-1214358) which I also have before me I see no more similarities than I see in any of the many many other modern self-defense oriented systems I see.

In the claim that "You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous" no matter who you are, despite the intense pressures on the Israelis and before that on Jews in pre-WW II and W II Europe, where Mr. Sde-Or developed much of his basics, I sense a certain lack of detachedness in your analysis.

I am aware that many Krav Maga classes amount to simple self-defense classe, but many martial arts lead to such.

I am, as I say, very much unconvinced that you are correct.

[Rainman]

Originally posted by arnisador



Yes. This means it's for the discussion kenpo, not that such discussion must necessarily be pro-Kenpo. I am not a Kenpoist and I also am not a Krav Maga practitioner--I am disinterested. I am unconvinced that Krav Maga has been significantly influenced by Ed Parker's Kenpo. The prime users of Krav Maga in its beginning received plenty of feedback as to its utility and no doubt made changes they felt were appropriate and beneficial.

Krav Maga was being taught in 1948, when Mr. Parker was still in high school. While it's modern form may have many newer influences, from for example the book Krav Maga : How to Defend Yourself Against Armed Assault (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1583940081/qid%3D1024278730/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/104-4044683-1214358) which I have before me together with what I have seen of Kenpo over the years and Jay T. Will's Kenpo Karate for Self-Defense (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0897500296/qid=1024278834/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-4044683-1214358) which I also have before me I see no more similarities than I see in any of the many many other modern self-defense oriented systems I see.

In the claim that "You will not come to the same conclusions as EP, his resourses were enormous" no matter who you are, despite the intense pressures on the Israelis and before that on Jews in pre-WW II and W II Europe, where Mr. Sde-Or developed much of his basics, I sense a certain lack of detachedness in your analysis.

I am aware that many Krav Maga classes amount to simple self-defense classe, but many martial arts lead to such.

I am, as I say, very much unconvinced that you are correct.


You picked the wrong book to model AK after. The 87 dollar price tag could get you infinite insights. "I am not a Kenpoist I am also not a krav maga practitioner". You don't practice AK so how would you know anyway? Your opinion is formed on what you have read and nothing else. Very weak indeed- in order to have a real point of view you need to have real experience not what you have only read and formed an opinion on. In case you have not followed some of the threads we can tell what comes out of the books. Some of it is trivial and some of what was put in the books was designed to show where it came from... a book instead of a teacher.

Not really any point going further- you would have to have an understanding of EPAK to do that. Why don't you do something usefull like bring a drill to the table for discussion?

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Rainman

You picked the wrong book to model AK after.

Surely you can appreciate the humor of this comment--could you get three kenpoists to agree on one book, or approach to Kenpo, in the wake of Mr. Parker's passing?


Your opinion is formed on what you have read and nothing else.

My opinion is based principally on the fact that Krav Maga was founded (http://kravmaga.com/Home/History/history.html) in 1948 and Ed Parker graduated from high school in 1949. It's correct that Krav maga has changed recently (http://www.kravmaga.com/forum/discussion.cgi?forum=5&discussion=5) but I see no evidence that Kenpo was an influence on it. In fact, here's what a Krav Maga Senior Instructor says (http://www.kravmaga.com/forum/discussion.cgi?forum=5&discussion=10) (see the second post by John Whitman):



Not BASED on. It's impossible to say, especially in this day and age, that no one is influenced by anyone else. Imi was a boxer, which is why KM has always had good punches. But we don't punch exactly like boxers. KM makes round kicks similar to muay thai fighters, but with some differences that any muay thai fighter will point out.
The same is true in reverse: I see our gun techniques popping up more and more in "other" systems.

The important thing to keep in mind is that KM has ALWAYS been integrated by it's own thought process -- the focus on instinctive movements and simple techniques that are accessible under stress. It has NEVER simply borrowed techniques and stuck them in it's system. Because we are an integrated system, every technique must make sense in relation to every other technique -- the same thought process informs the whole system.

Having said that, I will also say that KM has a number of techniques that were not seen by people outside the IDF until our videos came out, including a number of our gun techniques, our knife techniques, and stick defenses.


They think others are borrowing from them. Another poster in that thread writes:


I have been involved in various martial arts for over 20 years, and when I saw the KM tapes I saw a lot of techniques that looked SIMILAR to techniques in Kali, Bando, and even a little Aikido, all of which I have studied.


And back to Mr. Whitman:


No, I think you're relatively close, although I know for a fact that Imi's creation of self defense was ALL based on instinctive reaction and logical movement based on state of readiness, rather than someone else's technique.
You touch on a good point, though. Once you understand KM's basic principles (which are all related to a clear understanding of self defense) then you should be able to come up with a defense similar to KM's even if you haven't seen it. Darren Levine, the US Chief Instructor, often talks about getting his foundation in KM, then going back to the U.S. for a number of months. He'd be asked "What does KM do against...?" without having seen that particular technique. He'd have to come up with an answer based on his understanding of the system, rather than direct knowledge. Then he'd fly back to Israel, check with Imi, and discover that he was right because he understood the PRINCIPLES.


It sounds a great deal like what a kenpoist would say. I note that the Kali practitioner saw Kali as well. This is how I view your statement that you saw Kenpo in it; just as I view this person's belief that he saw Kali. We see what we want to see. This isn't like looking at an Okinawan kata and discerning that it came from an older Chinese form--relatively straight-forward techniques developed from simple principles of effectiveness will tend to look fairly similar, as they should if the idea of deriving techniques from principles makes any sense. I don't believe you saw any actual Kenpo in those techniques--and unless you can show a history of Kenpo's inclusion in the system, your judgment that it surely appears to be in there is no more sound than the Kali practitioner's.

I don't believe that it detracts from Mr. Parker's accomplishments to point out that others may have been able to do essentially the same.

[Bob Hubbard]

Given that there are only so many ways to do a throw, or a lock, and that the human body only moves in certain ways, it is entirely possible that a "good technique" in 1 system will be found in a similar manner in another. I've seen so much thats familiar when I look at other systems...because it works.

Now, if you tell me the KM guys do 5 swords, or long 4....thats different. :)

[Rainman]

Surely you can appreciate the humor of this comment--could you get three kenpoists to agree on one book, or approach to Kenpo, in the wake of Mr. Parker's passing?

The most humorous thing I see is you comparing anything to the infinite insights, then thinking you have a clue to what AK is about. If you would have read all of what I said earliar you would also have noted I said primitive kenpo not EPAK. So now you are going to tell me no one read EP's material and borrowed from it? Well first you would have to read his material, then come to an understanding of what it meant.


Given that there are only so many ways to do a throw, or a lock, and that the human body only moves in certain ways, it is entirely possible that a "good technique" in 1 system will be found in a similar manner in another. I've seen so much thats familiar when I look at other systems...because it works.

O lovely kenpo expert #2 brings in his point of view to the fold. You mean there are so many thousands of ways to "do" a throw.
Here is a funny statement from your partner's quote "our kick only looks like a muy tai kick it is really different" :rofl: Well I only use EP's principles the Kenpo that comes out is purely me:rofl:

[Bob Hubbard]

I never said I was an expert. I started out in Kenpo, have since moved on to other arts. Based on -my- observations I see this:

What a Kenpoist does as 1 technique, the Arnisador (not our mod) does as 5. Each of these 5 can be aranged differently forming a different Kenpo technique. This techniqu may contain a wristlock or an armbar. Gee, it looks like a WingChun armbar. Now, who stole/copied from who? Was it Yip Man, Ed Parker or Remy Presas? We have the Systema guys doing something that to me sounds alot like Tai Chi done full speed, full impact. Again, who borrowed from who?

Ed Parker was a great innovator, who did extensive studies on the mechanics of motion. He constantly aimed to improve his art. Many of these other folks did the same. The fact that a Kenpo kick looks like a WingChun kick looks like a Krav Magra kick is simply because those in the know (who I doubt -ANY- of us here really are) found the best way to do something. If its the best way, and someone else also did research and they too found the best way, wouldn't they look similar? From what I know (which is little) the KM guy was similarly minded. Constantly debugging his art which was aimed at combat survival.

If the argument is that the KM folks copied/cloned/stole from Kenpo, then produce your facts. Show your proof. Don't puff out hot air.

as I said before "Now, if you tell me the KM guys do 5 swords, or long 4....thats different. " So, care to list out where you see the similarities?

[Rainman]

What a Kenpoist does as 1 technique, the Arnisador (not our mod) does as 5. Each of these 5 can be aranged differently forming a different Kenpo technique. This techniqu may contain a wristlock or an armbar. Gee, it looks like a WingChun armbar. Now, who stole/copied from who? Was it Yip Man, Ed Parker or Remy Presas? We have the Systema guys doing something that to me sounds alot like Tai Chi done full speed, full impact. Again, who borrowed from who?

American Kenpo learned from the chinese that is why there is chinese writing on the patch... As a sign of respect.


If the argument is that the KM folks copied/cloned/stole from Kenpo, then produce your facts. Show your proof. Don't puff out hot air.

Everyone puffs out hot air- its called breathing. Credibility is the argument. Give it where it is due. I'm sorry you don't understand but you would have to be knowledgeable in AK for that to happen. Since neither you or your partner have an understanding of AK how is it you think you have answers I don't?

Many people have told me AK is limited in grappling- it is not-
How would I prove that to you unless you were on the mat with me? I have given you my resourses- read them or not. I would also suggest you go back and reread the posts. I said primitive kenpo not EPAK big difference. EPAK allows you to see many things if you study it and have a good guide.

[Bob Hubbard]

Few bits:
My Kenpo background - EPAK under Robert Koch in Alden NY. http://internationalkenpo.com
Have also discussed things with several high ranked EPAK folks.
Am I a Kenpoist? nope. But I've got about 2 yrs experience. That and $1.25 will get ya a Coke. :)

We are arguing a chicken-egg bit here. All systems have something to offer. Many look similar due to many reasons. If EPAK is the tool that works best for you, then thats great. But not everything can be traced back to a common root. Sometimes, folks come up with the same idea..just different times.

Peace.

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rainman
Many people have told me AK is limited in grappling- it is not-

This ought to be good. It actually depends on how you qualify it.


Originally posted by Rainman
EPAK allows you to see many things if you study it and have a good guide.

I so totally agree with this quote. Totally. A lot. Bunches. Can I make myself clearer?


Originally posted by Rainman
I'm sorry you don't understand but you would have to be knowledgeable in AK for that to happen. Since neither you or your partner have an understanding of AK how is it you think you have answers I don't?

I think they have a basic understanding but I also agree that that alone might not help. However, one of the things about EPAK is the ability of it to make things very clear through it's terminology. Perhaps you could explain to them and make them understand your point? It just doesn't seem enough to say, "You don't understand so there is no point in debating it." because then I don't get to see a good knock down drag 'em out fight. I mean...discussion. DISCUSSION! Heh heh heh...

[Rainman]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Few bits:
My Kenpo background - EPAK under Robert Koch in Alden NY. http://internationalkenpo.com
Have also discussed things with several high ranked EPAK folks.
Am I a Kenpoist? nope. But I've got about 2 yrs experience. That and $1.25 will get ya a Coke. :)

We are arguing a chicken-egg bit here. All systems have something to offer. Many look similar due to many reasons. If EPAK is the tool that works best for you, then thats great. But not everything can be traced back to a common root. Sometimes, folks come up with the same idea..just different times.

Peace.

:asian:

:asian:



I think they have a basic understanding but I also agree that that alone might not help. However, one of the things about EPAK is the ability of it to make things very clear through it's terminology. Perhaps you could explain to them and make them understand your point? It just doesn't seem enough to say, "You don't understand so there is no point in debating it." because then I don't get to see a good knock down drag 'em out fight. I mean...discussion. DISCUSSION! Heh heh heh...


:rofl: troublemaker

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Rainman
:rofl: troublemaker

Who me?

Nahhhhhhhh!

:rolleyes: :ultracool