Interesting link on American Saber fighting:

http://ahfaa.org/saber.htm

Thoughts?

:duel: :boing2:

Interesting link on American Saber fighting:

http://ahfaa.org/saber.htm

Thoughts?


Pete Kautz and crew do good work. It is really simple to use compared to civilian dueling sabre in the French or Italian schools.

Chris

I am a fan of Kautz's work myself. :)

I own several reproduction calvary sabers and Eastern curved blade weapons.. the same draw cuts that work well with eastern weapons can work with the Western calvary saber, as well. For a good realistic movie example of draw cuts, with a single handed weapon (for those who do not know the theory) the scene in Hidalgo where the black bodyguard fights the Bedouin kidnappers is excellent.

The main reason for the curve of all these blades was calvary use, (horse or camel) the better ability to glance the blade off a passing enemy without excess shock to the wielder.
I generally prefer a straight Viking-Damascus blade/other straight short sword/Falchion or forward tilted Kukri/Falcata design as they are more practical for ground based hand to hand fighting, IMO. A good folded steel or fine carbon steel Asian blade (Katana, Wakisashi, etc..) would do well these days also as we don't wear full armor :)

If for any reason I were to be horsed (I have riding experience but don't currently own a horse ;) then the curved weapons would be more suitable.

AC...

What reproduction sabers do you own, and are they suitable for training?

What you (or any of you) recommend for a good reasonably priced American Saber?

I am looking at picking a few up, which is why I ask...

Paul

Tulisan,

I own several Indian forged steel repros of US and European cavalry sabers. Surprisingly good quality steel, made by Windlass Steelcrafts in India. I get them wholesale, if you see a sword on line that you like, PM me and I'll try to get you a better price if you like. Most retail swords are way over priced with up to 60% markup. I also own several copies of Bulgarian cavalry sabers which are mostly decorative. And a wonderful high carbon steel two handed Persian weapon which is my favorite curved blade. Works great with Kali footwork. If you just want a good bargain steel saber for training, the India manufacture cavalry swords are just fine. They will even cut quite well. I bought mine years ago for $45 each. I don't know exactly what is available right now, however.

If you want a real hard core quality fighting weapon that could be used for genuine calvary warfare, Cold Steel is your best bet, but $$$. I like to have at least one all out quality fighting weapon for each type of cheaper repro pair that I train with. I get these wholesale and would be happy to sell you any one of these cheap (like less than 10% over wholesale plus shipping if I can obtain it)

Here's the Cold Steel light cavalry saber, these are fighting/high quality weapons.. look around that site for what you might want, there are several saber designs: http://www.coldsteel.com/88s.html

If you wanted to try a quality manufacture extreme draw cut weapon, here's one : http://www.casiberia.com/cas_website/product_details.asp?id=SR038

Regards,
Steve

Pete Kautz and crew do good work. It is really simple to use compared to civilian dueling sabre in the French or Italian schools.

Chris


Chris,

If I or any of my instructors wanted to get into the American, French, or Italian arts that you and others do, what would you suggest? Do you have any good web sites I could reference? Book suggestions?


Regards,


Steve

You can divide the Western Martial arts world any number of ways, but one was is between Living Traditions (LT) and Historical European Swordsmanship (HES). HES studies those weapons without LT and even some that have it by using the printed treatises. There are a lot of these schools/study groups popping up all over. Check out http://swordforum.com/ for forums and lists of groups.

Dueling sabre is well within the range of LT so that's the way to go for that weapon.

M. Martinez teaches French and Italian sabre.
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

M. Crown http://www.classicalfencing.com/ is in Ithaca teaches French sabre in Ithaca, NY

M. Sinclair http://www.scherma-antica.org/ Teaches Italian sabre in Italy

M. Manusardi in Italy http://web.tiscalinet.it/canneitaliana/ teaches sabre as well as cane

M. Lurz http://home.pacbell.net/parsec-e/ teaching in California - Italian

M. Hayes http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/ in Oregon - Italian

Maitre Zakrzewski teaches Polish Infantry sabre in Canada, but I don't know if he has a website.

I think the best book one could get is Barbasetti's 'The Art of the Sabre and the Epee' if you're looking for something already in English.

Chris

Can anyone recommend some good books, videos, or DVDs to learn the basics of Sabers, Foils or Epee? I am not looking to ever compete. I am just looking for dills and such to do on my own. More to just use them for exercise. I am in the middle of Nebraska and there are no instructors nearby (closest one is 5.5 hours away). Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John

Is there a college club near you?

Can anyone recommend some good books, videos, or DVDs to learn the basics of Sabers, Foils or Epee? I am not looking to ever compete. I am just looking for dills and such to do on my own. More to just use them for exercise. I am in the middle of Nebraska and there are no instructors nearby (closest one is 5.5 hours away). Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John
Cold Steel's free DVD on swords has a section dedicated to saber drills. Not a huge amount of material, but you can't beat the price.

Free? Is it promotional with a purchase, then?

All we have here is a very poor community college, with no fencing
whatsoever. We only have one martial arts school here and that's in
Ninjitsu, not my cup of tea. Saber has always interested me, so I figured
I could learn some basic drills to practice alone for exercise. I have no
intentions or believe that I will ever duel or spar with anyone, since there
is no interests at all for this where I live. It's like the lacrosse sticks I have, no here plays Lacrosse, but my Daughter and I play cath back and forth and play our own little backyard game for fun. The more variety I have in activities, the more likely I am to exercise.

I ordered the free DVDs and will probably end up ordering the saber set when I get the money, as they are quite expensive. Cold Steel is the first place I have seen offer someting like that. If anyone else can recommend any other DVDs/Books/VHS that I can learn various drills from for the saber, I would appreciate it. It looks like it would be something fun to do. I appreciate you guys giving me advice.

Free? Is it promotional with a purchase, then?
It's promotional- they show how well their swords cut and such- but no purchase is required. Just go to their website and request it. It's like a video catalog with an instructional bonus. They'll send you a paper catalog along with it.

Thanks, I'll do that!

There are some new sabres as well at

http://www.casiberia.com/cas/productsearch.asp?subsub=yes&cat=Swords%20and%20Daggers&subcat=Western&subsubcat=Sabres

I haven't gotten my hands on them yet though...

Chris

Chris,

Would you recommend these rapiers, or something similar, for the Spanish weapon seminar to be taught in Maplewood, NJ next month - or would a standard fencing sabre suffice?

Best,

Steve Lamade

Steve,

A standard sabre should be fine as long as it has an S2000 blade (the same kind now required for sport fencing). If you have a pre 2000 blade, I'd say it's too light.

Chris

Chris,

Thank you. The Radaelli and Hutton Sabres currently available from a couple of manufacturers would also be o.k. (?).

Best,

Steve

You can divide the Western Martial arts world any number of ways, but one was is between Living Traditions (LT) and Historical European Swordsmanship (HES). HES studies those weapons without LT and even some that have it by using the printed treatises. There are a lot of these schools/study groups popping up all over. Check out http://swordforum.com/ for forums and lists of groups.

Dueling sabre is well within the range of LT so that's the way to go for that weapon.

M. Martinez teaches French and Italian sabre.
http://www.martinez-destreza.com/

M. Crown http://www.classicalfencing.com/ is in Ithaca teaches French sabre in Ithaca, NY

M. Sinclair http://www.scherma-antica.org/ Teaches Italian sabre in Italy

M. Manusardi in Italy http://web.tiscalinet.it/canneitaliana/ teaches sabre as well as cane

M. Lurz http://home.pacbell.net/parsec-e/ teaching in California - Italian

M. Hayes http://www.northwestacademyofarms.com/ in Oregon - Italian

Maitre Zakrzewski teaches Polish Infantry sabre in Canada, but I don't know if he has a website.

I think the best book one could get is Barbasetti's 'The Art of the Sabre and the Epee' if you're looking for something already in English.

Chris
For the HES approach to the Western Martial Arts, check out www.thearma.org (http://www.thearma.org)

Chris,

Would you recommend these rapiers, or something similar, for the Spanish weapon seminar to be taught in Maplewood, NJ next month - or would a standard fencing sabre suffice?

Best,

Steve Lamade
Steve, that seminar should be fantastic. Though I am not a huge fan of the rapier, Maestro Martinez is the finest rapier instructor I have ever seen in action. The reason why I am sorry I have to miss the seminar is because of James Loriega. Loriega is a fine instructor, and anyone who is interested in Western knifecraft should train with him any chance they get. I really can't say enough good things about him.

For a little heads up on Spanish knife fighting, check out Loriega's most recent publication:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1581604718/qid=1121008645/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-2560890-6512112?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1581604718/qid=1121008645/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-2560890-6512112?v=glance&s=books&n=507846)

For the HES approach to the Western Martial Arts, check out www.thearma.org (http://www.thearma.org)
Shane, I didn't think ARMA trained in 19th century saber? This wasn't a thread on generic WMA, but on the saber specifically.

Steve, that seminar should be fantastic. Though I am not a huge fan of the rapier, Maestro Martinez is the finest rapier instructor I have ever seen in action. The reason why I am sorry I have to miss the seminar is because of James Loriega. Loriega is a fine instructor, and anyone who is interested in Western knifecraft should train with him any chance they get. I really can't say enough good things about him.

Keith,

Thank you. I plan on attending. I guess a practice sabre with a s2000 blade would be sufficient (I don't know very much about fencing blades, equipment, etc.)? Ditto for a practice foil? I have a rapier made with a schlager blade that should be o.k.

Best,

Steve

Chris,

Thank you. The Radaelli and Hutton Sabres currently available from a couple of manufacturers would also be o.k. (?).

Best,

Steve
Steve,

I'm not sure who else is making them.
Chris

Keith,

Thank you. I plan on attending. I guess a practice sabre with a s2000 blade would be sufficient (I don't know very much about fencing blades, equipment, etc.)? Ditto for a practice foil? I have a rapier made with a schlager blade that should be o.k.

Best,

Steve
Here's the section re: equipment for the seminar. I think my only question would be, how long is the rapier blade? 35" or 40" (see the section below about measuring the blade)?

Chris
"
The classes are structured to accommodate both beginners and advance students. Students who have their own equipment are advised to bring a pair of gloves for both hands, masks, jackets, breast protectors for women, and rigid groin cups for men. Students that do not have their own equipment are asked to wear comfortable work out clothing. If you do not have a Spanish type rapier an Italian type will do. If you have no rapier at all then we advise you to bring a wooden dowel of 3/4 inch in thickness. They can be purchased at any Home Depot or neighborhood lumberyard. To measure the appropriate length, stand square and extend your sword arm out horizontally to the side. The total length of the dowel should be taken from the opposite shoulder to the tip of the middle finger of the hand of the extended arm. If you do not have a Spanish smallsword, bring a foil. An Italian foil would be preferable but a French foil will be permitted. It is important that you have a sabre, as it is essential to understand the distinction between the sabre and stick. We will provide walking sticks and navaja trainers. Although we are making allowance for those who do not have all the proper equipment and weapons it is exceedingly important to be properly equipped to achieve the best results."

Can anyone recommend some good books, videos, or DVDs to learn the basics of Sabers, Foils or Epee? I am not looking to ever compete. I am just looking for dills and such to do on my own. More to just use them for exercise. I am in the middle of Nebraska and there are no instructors nearby (closest one is 5.5 hours away). Any suggestion would be appreciated.

Thanks,
John
Hi John,

We're just down the road from you in Wichita - which still isn't close. We teach an Italo-Hungarian dueling sabre form from the Radaelli/Santelli lineage (with the addition of hungarian techniques (wrist and finger cutting, and lots of false edge work) to the Radaelli/Santelli material - though we do maintain and teach all the original techniques). We're only operating on a tuesday/thursday night schedule which definitely doesn't help you at all. If Kansas City is any closer to you, I have a colleague who teaches from the Radaelli/Santelli lineage as well there and they do run a weekend (saturday afternoon) practice as well as weeknights..

I know the sport club in Lincoln has some very good fencers - but its not classical fencing, which sounds to me more like what you're looking for. I don't know of anybody doing classical stuff up in NB unfortunately. You might want to try the Midwest Historical Fencers Project yahoogroup - perhaps somebody there might be able to help you find something closer to home.

as a side note: the Radaelli/Pecoraro sabres from CAS-Iberia are being sold with straight blades which aren't terribly conducive to working with some of the Radaellian material, such as the Sforzi from 5th and 6th position, which work much much better with the curved blade Radaelli originally used.. Apparently CAS-I has some curved blades in the works..

I'm working on a project to get a radaellian patterned blade in my collection reproduced by Angus Trim, but that's going to be a few more months yet.

Darkwood Armoury has radaelli and pecoraro hilted sabres on the market as well, though I have yet to see any pictures of their curved duelling sabre blade, and haven't heard anything about it. Their guards look great, but I don't like their interpretation of the backstrap style grip..

The Radaelli and Pecoraro guards are also availible through Negrini fencing equipment company, and are repros from an old catalog of theirs, unfortunately they didn't repro the blades or any of the other hardware.

--
Chris Holzman
Moniteur D' Armes
River City Fencing Club

Hey Chris,

I'd forgotten about the Darkwood sabres. I haven't handled them, but some folks who have say that they're too heavy, YMMV.

Chris

Hey Chris,

I'd forgotten about the Darkwood sabres. I haven't handled them, but some folks who have say that they're too heavy, YMMV.

Chris
I haven't heard *anything* about them - so that's more than I knew before. I'm looking forward to seeing the CAS ones - Jason at Brightblades told me they are shipping in the states, but are on backorder of roughly a month. I just wish they would have done a curved blade first, but M. MacDonald explained why it was done with a straight blade - availibility, and that the blade wasn't from a Radaelli or Pecoraro anyway. I'd have been glad to donate mine to the cause, had I known about it.

On the flip side, whenever Gus gets around to it, we'll have blunts and sharps.

On a somewhat related note...
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/sci.military.naval/browse_frm/thread/cd25316d85e433d7/5c75c69d4920948b?tvc=1&q=cutlass&hl=en#5c75c69d4920948b

They describe the training as being "kata-like" at the time.

as a side note: the Radaelli/Pecoraro sabres from CAS-Iberia are being sold with straight blades which aren't terribly conducive to working with some of the Radaellian material, such as the Sforzi from 5th and 6th position, which work much much better with the curved blade Radaelli originally used.. Apparently CAS-I has some curved blades in the works..


Chris, I hear the first batch from CAS was no good and the blades are being re-worked. Something about being too mushy on a thrust.

Chris

Chris, I hear the first batch from CAS was no good and the blades are being re-worked. Something about being too mushy on a thrust.

Chris Hey Chris,

My Maestro bought a Radaelli and a Hutton.. The Hutton is ok, if you like that kind of sabre - I don't, but the blade is decent enough - a bit soft, but not horrible.

The blade on the Radaelli is just aweful, in my opinion. Rather than a folded over point a la modern s2000 blades, the point is shaped as one would expect of a folded point, but is solid. From the debole to doppio-debole, the blade was EXTREMELY soft - to the point that a modern foil fencer could easily have turned it sideways and flicked it.. my LM S2000 blades from PBT are far stiffer. More to the point, I've had pre-S2000 blades that were stiffer than this thing - even a couple of old Scaroni blades that were stiffer - if you can believe that.

I must say I truly dislike the shape of the blade as well - it look and feels like an overgrown S2000... like, perhaps one of the first of the BF s2000's, or the Viniti triangle sections... the point didn't track well through the cut, and I could feel the blade counter-flexing badly during montante cuts. handling was awful. I've got a curved blade in the works - should be prototyped sometime after labor day.. I intend to have it compatible with the CAS hilts, or easily modifiable to be compatible.

The Radaelli hilt is nicely done, although they need to either modify the ferrule at the front of the grip to match the guard shape, or they need to modify the tang shape (or just set it down slightly) so that the ferrule mates with the guard on all surfaces..

The weight was about as advertised, though the POB was closer to the guard than I like..

If I can get money ahead, I'm going to buy one of the radaelli's so that I'll have something to fit the new blade to. I'd rather have one of the Negrini guards, but I can buy one of the CAS weapons for the same price as just the negrini guard, and would still have to come up with a backstrap...

Still - it *is* progress.

Chris,

Just received this message
--------------------------------------
Hello,

We are writing to everyone about the new sabres by CAS Iberia. Maestro Paul
Macdonald showed us the prototypes for these sabres back in the Spring of
2004. We were so pleased with the blades and the hilts that we were eagerly
awaiting their production. We placed a substantial order as soon as we
heard they were available. It was a huge disappointment to find out that
what they have produced resembles the prototypes in appearance only. We
returned the whole order because we were so greatly disappointed with the
blades.

The problems that we noted are;
1. The temper of the Radaelli and Pecoraro sabre blades is incorrect. This
is especially so in the foible. It has no temper at all, making it is
excessively soft and whippy. The blade is too flexible with nearly no
spring to it, which makes it feel totally lifeless. Upon careful
examination it is clear that the blade will easily bend excessively and not
return to true. We were shocked to see this; the prototypes in 2004 had
accurately tempered blades which sprang back to true.
2. The Radaelli and Pecoraro sabre blades are also too light. This renders
the over all balance of these sabres completely wrong as all of the weight
of the completed sabre is then concentrated in the hilt.
3. Worst of all, these blades are all inconsistent.
4. The blade on the Hutton has the opposite problem. The Hutton sabre blade
is too stiff and heavy. These blades are also tempered incorrectly as they
are too rigid and the foible has no flex at all. This makes the completed
sabre feel like a club or hammer in the hand with the weight too far forward
of the guard.
5. The blade on the Hutton has some taper, but the general thickness of the
blade is excessive.

From our examination of CAS Iberia products, we have determined that they
have the adequate technology and the ability to produce a good product.
What is required is more attention to detail. We have written them
explaining all of the above, hoping that they will correct the errors by
making the proper adjustments and modifications on the blades.

We are letting everyone know about this because it is important that we (the
consumer) let weapon suppliers know that we are not willing to settle for
second rate equipment, especially when they have the means and capacity to
produce a better product. If we are content to purchase products that are
"the best available" when they can clearly produce better, then there is no
incentive for them to improve their products. This is a good opportunity
for us to voice our concerns and let the folks at Cas Iberia know that we
will not settle for substandard goods.

We need to encourage the manufacturer to replicate these weapons exactly to
the technical specs of the prototypes (rather then giving them our
"opinions"). The specs Maestro Macdonald gave them served to produce a very
good prototype. All we are asking is that they adhere to the specs and
quality that they showed us they were capable of achieving in the
prototypes.

Sincerely,

Maestro Ramon Martinez, Director
Maestro Jeannette Acosta-Martinez, Manager
Martinez Academy of Arms

Hi, yeah - I saw that on CFML this morning - also, I have a review/pics up over on SFI as well..

It really is rather disappointing.

Hopefully CAS can get it fixed - I'd hate to see them not sell them due to crappy blades - despite being not a proper Radaelli blade, the more they sell, the more hilts there will be in circulation, and at least thats a step in the right direction.

Big Dittos on Pete's Saber & Singlestick programs. This is pretty close to what I had in my program of instruction too when I ran the school in Poquoson, Va. The focus on the Military use not necessarly on the 'Dueling Saber'. I've been trying to get around training in some of this with Maestro Martinez but life, and this knife stuff keeps getting in the way. I've been blessed to have been given an original 1863 Union Saber ( I believe it was made under government contract by Ames-not sure) This weapon does not feel the same as those stock reduction one made today. Much faster and lighter than I thought.


Best
Dwight

An 1863 Union saber? How cool!

An 1863 Union saber? How cool!

Very cool...take care of that! :)

Maybe leave it to me in your will!

:D:D:D