breaking bones

[Loren W. Christensen]

I'm working on a writing project in which I examine grappling techniques that break bones, joints in particular. I'm talking toes, ankles, knees, hips, spine, shoulders, neck, elbows, wrists, and fingers.

Have any list members been the victim of such a break, have done the breaking, or have witnessed others execute or receive such a break? I'd be interested in knowing how it occurred, whether in class, competition or the street. I'm only interested in grappling techniques.

Loren Christensen

www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/www.lwcbooks.com)

[SammyB57]

See Frank Mir vs. Tim Sylvia in the UFC. Mir put on an Arm-bar and broke some bones in Sylvia's forearm. It looked pretty nasty to see the pop on tape.

I know hyperextension from the straight arm-bar is pretty common.

Heel Hooks can do massive damage to the knee.... it sounds like carrots snapping.

Do I get a free book now?

[SammyB57]

Judo Throws can also cause a lot of damage to the shoulder, arm, and collarbone.

Especially on concrete, and/or if someone doesn't know how to fall properly.

Chuck Norris broke his collarbone doing Judo in Korea, which led him into Tang So Do.


---

This doesn't really count as a break, but chokes are absolutely effective at putting the lights out. Then you can kind of do whatever you want with your opponent. You could be gentle and run away (he'll probably just wake up confused) or you could be not so gentle and keep choking (after a few minutes he's gone fa' sho').... or you could stomp on his head.

[auxprix]

I'm not proud of this:

I once wrecked a wrestler's knee in a leglog while crosstraining. It was a compression lock on the joint using my leg in a figure four. I wasn't pushing two hard on it. He turned against me and his leg bent to the outside of the joint. It's a sickening sound and feeling. It sounds more like a crunch than a snap, followed by a wail.

Anyways, he got surgery on it soon after, followed by a summer of physical therepy.

Still one of my best friends, but for some reason won't wrestle with me anymore...

So hear's my take. Breaks happen mostly in accidents to people who aren't sure how to deal with joint locking techniques and the like. Examples could be beginers, crosstrainers, and streetfighters. Practice caution in locks with said people, since consequenses can be greater than desired.

[MA-Caver]

Right, I've purposely lost many a fun "wrestling" match with people because I gave in as I realize that if they exert any more pressure against my holds (trying to break free) they'll break or pop a joint and thus I had to let go and relent and they laughingly thought that I gave up or wussed out.
It was pointless to say that if they had continued that they've would've broken something against the hold that I had on them. I was able to maintain just enough pressure but their counter-pressure of their attempts to break free would've resulted in the same effect had I put a few more pounds per square inch.
Both parties need to T-H-I-N-K when practicing grappling/wrestling moves for fun or practicing. The human body is a paradox because it's very resilent and strong but very fragile at the same time. Knowing which direction a bone can and will break and just how few/many pounds of pressure is needed can go a long way in ensuring a fun time instead of a painful time.

[Loren W. Christensen]

[QUOTE

I once wrecked a wrestler's knee in a leglog while crosstraining. It was a compression lock on the joint using my leg in a figure four. I wasn't pushing two hard on it. He turned against me and his leg bent to the outside of the joint.


Could you describe the technique a little more. I think I know what you are referring to, but maybe not.

Although he caused the break by turning, do you think you could have broken it by applying more pressure and maybe tweaking the angle a little?

Loren
-------------
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[Loren W. Christensen]

Right, I've purposely lost many a fun "wrestling" match with people because I gave in as I realize that if they exert any more pressure against my holds (trying to break free) they'll break or pop a joint and thus I had to let go and relent and they laughingly thought that I gave up or wussed out.



That is a wonderful martial arts attitude. Not enough of that among the shaved head and heavily tattooed grappling braggarts.





The human body is a paradox because it's very resilient and strong but very fragile at the same time.



So very true. During my 29 years in law enforcement, I saw people bullet riddled and still fighting, filleted like a fish and still fighting, and others die easily from a seemingly no big deal event.


Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[OUMoose]

I've had one experience like this that still turns my stomach a little, as it was during training and purely accidental. It was a standing grapple, and my partner was going for a takedown from a sweep. I was off balance, but it wasn't quite working, so we both stopped mid-movement to try to analyze why it wasn't going. Not sure what happened, but when I straightened my leg to regain balance, it exerted pressure on his knee and blew it out. Can still hear it today, very reminicent of someone cracking a knuckle, but 100 times louder. He told me after that he had knee problems, and it wasn't the first time something similar had happened, but I still felt awful. :(

[auxprix]

Could you describe the technique a little more. I think I know what you are referring to, but maybe not.

Although he caused the break by turning, do you think you could have broken it by applying more pressure and maybe tweaking the angle a little?



I'll try. My opponent was prone on his stomach, and I was on his back. I bend his knee and wrapped mine around it so that the back of the joint was roughly against my ankle, and his foot was on my crotch. so the pressure came from me leaning forward, and the same time leaning his foot forward with my groin, and the knee closed around my ankle.

The problem wasn't the lock, the problem was he tried to throw me off and turn against me very quickly and before I had time to react. The motion threw me off the lock a little and his turning over with a trappled leg blew the knee.

The mistake I made wasn't in the lock technique. I did it correctly. It was in decision to apply it against someone unfamilliar with it in the first place.

-aux

[Loren W. Christensen]

I'll try. My opponent was prone on his stomach, and I was on his back. I bend his knee and wrapped mine around it so that the back of the joint was roughly against my ankle, and his foot was on my crotch. so the pressure came from me leaning forward, and the same time leaning his foot forward with my groin, and the knee closed around my ankle.

The problem wasn't the lock, the problem was he tried to throw me off and turn against me very quickly and before I had time to react. The motion threw me off the lock a little and his turning over with a trappled leg blew the knee.

The mistake I made wasn't in the lock technique. I did it correctly. It was in decision to apply it against someone unfamilliar with it in the first place.

-aux
Okay, I got it. Thanks. That's the technique I thought you were referring to. Some people can tolerate it while others moan before you even get it all the way on. It was definitley your partner's error. Hopefuylly it healed.

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[auxprix]

Okay, I got it. Thanks. That's the technique I thought you were referring to. Some people can tolerate it while others moan before you even get it all the way on. It was definitley your partner's error. Hopefuylly it healed.

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

Yep, he's alright now. He's a tough little bugger.

He also didn't let me appologize for it. He takes responsibility for it, which makes me feel better. Besides feeling bad for it happening to him, I was also frightend about the liability. I mean, in today's sue crazy american society, who knows how much he could sue me for?

But, thank god, he was cool about it and we're still very close friends.

-aux.

[takadadojokeith]

I'm working on a writing project in which I examine grappling techniques that break bones, joints in particular. I'm talking toes, ankles, knees, hips, spine, shoulders, neck, elbows, wrists, and fingers.

Have any list members been the victim of such a break, have done the breaking, or have witnessed others execute or receive such a break? I'd be interested in knowing how it occurred, whether in class, competition or the street. I'm only interested in grappling techniques.

Loren Christensen

www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/www.lwcbooks.com)



I've popped a guys elbow with ude garami in a submission wrestling match and I've watched a buddy pop a guys ankle in an amateur Pride event. My experience is the same as general wisdom. Elbows break like celery and leg joints pop suddenly.

[Loren W. Christensen]

I've popped a guys elbow with ude garami in a submission wrestling match and I've watched a buddy pop a guys ankle in an amateur Pride event. My experience is the same as general wisdom. Elbows break like celery and leg joints pop suddenly.
Hi,

I'd be interested in knowing what technique did the ankle.


Thanks.

Loren

www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[takadadojokeith]

Hi,

I'd be interested in knowing what technique did the ankle.



What technique? It was a foot lock, kinda like this...

http://www.fightordie.it/tecniche/Roll_2.jpg

...but I'm not sure how much the details we're giving will help your project. Are you writing a how-to book or a survey of trauma? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm genuinely curious.
Pretty much everything you do at a good grappling school will injure joints, sometimes even when you're not trying. I've seen or experienced lots of accidental hyperextension, popped joints, etc. One guy at my gym even broke his neck in normal practice. I'll bet that guys from any competitive grappling or mma gym could tell similar stories.

[Loren W. Christensen]

What technique? It was a foot lock, kinda like this...

http://www.fightordie.it/tecniche/Roll_2.jpg

...but I'm not sure how much the details we're giving will help your project. Are you writing a how-to book or a survey of trauma? I'm not being sarcastic either, I'm genuinely curious.
Pretty much everything you do at a good grappling school will injure joints, sometimes even when you're not trying. I've seen or experienced lots of accidental hyperextension, popped joints, etc. One guy at my gym even broke his neck in normal practice. I'll bet that guys from any competitive grappling or mma gym could tell similar stories.
Thanks, good pic.

The book is about how to break and sprain bones, primarily joints. For sure grappling schools practice techniques that injure joints. I'm trying to minimize theory and maximize examples where fighters have experienced receiving, giving or seeing a joint sprained or broken with a specific technique.

Info like what you just gave me is very helpful. Thanks again.

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[takadadojokeith]

The book is about how to break and sprain bones, primarily joints. For sure grappling schools practice techniques that injure joints. I'm trying to minimize theory and maximize examples where fighters have experienced receiving, giving or seeing a joint sprained or broken with a specific technique.

Info like what you just gave me is very helpful. Thanks again.


You're welcome. Where else are you getting examples from? It sounds like you should be talking to pro fighters, elite amateur grapplers, or sports medicine experts. They'll probably give you more info/examples of what you're looking for than we could.

[Cruentus]

You're welcome. Where else are you getting examples from? It sounds like you should be talking to pro fighters, elite amateur grapplers, or sports medicine experts. They'll probably give you more info/examples of what you're looking for than we could.

I think talking to "ordinary" people is good too, though. It brings more realism to the techniques...if one non-professional martial artist could pull them off, then so could others.

[Loren W. Christensen]

You're welcome. Where else are you getting examples from? It sounds like you should be talking to pro fighters, elite amateur grapplers, or sports medicine experts. They'll probably give you more info/examples of what you're looking for than we could.
Thanks. Yes, I usually research a lot for my books. Of course a broken bone is a broken bone no matter who it was done to, done by, or witnessed by. It's all good...unless it was your bone. :-)

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com)

[LT2002]

Took a shoulder into the ribs while being knocked onto the ground (of course missing the mats) suffered a couple fractured ribs.


Had a new student playing before class (while talking with some parents on the side) try some aerial kicks lost balance and took out the row of chairs pinning my knee between two - very sore to this day

[Mr_Scissors]

are you interested in muscle and cartilage tears as well? most "broken" knees are really torn cartilage/ligament/tendon scenarios as opposed to bone breaking.

i fractured my c-7 vertebrae once from being cranked. early on in my training i got caught in a back mount and the guy hooked in a full nelson. not the typical prowretling style where the hand are clasped on the back of the neck, but rather with his hands clasped right on the immoble joint on top of my head.

just as i was reaching to tap we heard a pop and i found myself in tremendous pain. subsequently i wore a brace for about 12 weeks. after doing a ton of physical therapy everything seems to work again.

i have a lot more stories if you want to hear about tearing things as opposed to just breaking.

[Bod]

I broke my little toe from a judo throw. I jumped over a tai-otoshi, but my partner kept driving. I landed on my little toe and it broke.

It is very hard getting on public transport with crutches.

[bignick]

Well...unfortuneately I have two stories to add and they both occured within the last week and a half. In one I performed a kote gaeshi and my partner didn't fall quite fast enough with it. We both heard a pop and she (yes, I was beating up on a girl) almost immediately lost most of the mobility in her wrist. She went to the doctor and they finally determined it was broken but something had seperated, never got the full details, either way she's wearing a brace for a few weeks.

Second, was just last night in judo we were working on a variation of morote seoi nage where you hold onto the oppenents wrists instead of their gi and as my partner was throwing me he lost his balance and stumbled forward and proceeded to wrench on my right arm. I don't remember hearing any noise but there was a pretty sickening feel of my shoulder coming out and popping back in real quick. My instructor worked on it for a bit and I iced it for a while but I could still barely pick up my shampoo bottle when I was showering after class. Today the mobility is a lot better. If it continues to improve at this rate I think I'll be fine, but if it doesn't get any better I'll probably have to visit the doc.

If you want a better description of either the actual techniques or situations I could try to give them or a maybe take a couple pics of what we were doing...

[Loren W. Christensen]

[QUOTE=bignick]Well...unfortuneately I have two stories to add and they both occured within the last week and a half. In one I performed a kote gaeshi and my partner didn't fall quite fast enough with it. We both heard a pop and she (yes, I was beating up on a girl) almost immediately lost most of the mobility in her wrist. She went to the doctor and they finally determined it was broken but something had seperated, never got the full details, either way she's wearing a brace for a few weeks.QUOTE]

Hi Nick,

Thanks for the info. I'm familiar with kote gaeshi. Do you recall if you snapped it on hard? Do you think the injury was a result of her not going with the throw so all the energy went into the joint?

Hope your arm gets better.

Thanks.

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com (http://www.lwcbooks.com/)

[bignick]

It was not put on hard at all...it was just as I was letting go of her hand something that it happened. She went with the throw or takedown as it may be, but I think that right before I let go she started to come back in the opposite direction so just as I was letting go her weight forced the lock on her wrist even tighter. I'm sure that if I hadn't been letting go her wrist would have been broken.

[DuckofDeath]

John "The Machine" Lober got his ankle broken (by an ankle lock, I believe) in his fight against Ryushi Yanagisawa (Pancrase-Alive 11, 12-20-1997).

Here's a link to an interesting article about a BJJer who reconstructed a move that broke or dislocated an ankle in an ancient pankration match:

http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_hollenback_0903.htm

[loyalonehk]

Recieved: (1) Broken nose from sparring, blocked his punch with my face, (1) Broken toe while kicking someones cup while sparring, fractured ribs both sides during normal training, chipped sternum/breast plate during normal training session (ground-n-pound).

Given: Broken ulna (stick fighting), fractured ribs (ground-n-pound), 1 broken finger (knife dissarm), 1 broken toe (grappling).

Lesson learned... Better to give than receive. Oh, and dont block with your face (learned that one at age 14).