I just called the Dayton Quest Center to find out if one could attain Bujinkan rank in any of their programs (classical and modern) and the answer I got was "no" which seems contrary to what I've seen stated by many who are part of Mr. Hayes' various programs.

Can I get some clarification on this?

Also, even if one does have rank in To-Shin Do (modern or classical) does that allow one to eventually train with Hatsumi later down the line?

If you just called them, why didn't you ask them?

I did ask them. Hence...

and the answer I got was "no"

I was only calling to confirm what I got from the majority of the To-Shin Do community and just making sure that there was no error on the part of the person who answered the phone since it seems that the majority of the community who has discussed this issue is convinced otherwise.

Now, onto the next part of what I have to ask: I know that Bujinkan members 5th Dan and above are allowed to train at the Hombu with Dr. Hatsumi. Does anyone know if there is a level of To-Shin Do (classical or modern) practice where one can train at the Hombu?

I did ask them. Hence...



I was only calling to confirm what I got from the majority of the To-Shin Do community and just making sure that there was no error on the part of the person who answered the phone since it seems that the majority of the community who has discussed this issue is convinced otherwise.

Now, onto the next part of what I have to ask: I know that Bujinkan members 5th Dan and above are allowed to train at the Hombu with Dr. Hatsumi. Does anyone know if there is a level of To-Shin Do (classical or modern) practice where one can train at the Hombu?You do not have to be 5th dan or any dan for the matter to train at the Hombu. The only requirement is that you are a Bujinkan member (no rank requirement). As far as I know (at this time anyway) the same goes if you are a To-Shin Do practitioner...as long as you are a Bujinkan member as well there is no rank requirements. There are some things in the air which could change this, but only time will tell.

As far as what you were told by the Dayton Quest Center concerning Bujinkan rank...I am truthfully unsure. The last time I checked (a few months ago) Mr. Hayes would still get Bujinkan rank for students that requested it. It is not an official thing in any of the To-Shin Do programs though...it is something that a student would individually request from my experience and understanding.

Anyone can train at the Hombu Dojo with Hatsumi, however he only teaches at the 5th dan and above levels...................this does not mean you cant train there, jus tthat Hatsumi sensei does not have a program that teaches students from the beginning. If you are in Japan you would be welcome to train there, however, I would reccoment that you train with some people in the Bujinkan a little beforehand as you will find that many things in To Shin Do are not worded the same as in the Bujinkan......for example the elemental levels are not recognized in the Bujinkan. Hatsumi refers to them at various points in training but not the way that SKH does. I say this only so you get more out of your experience in Japan. Please keep in mind that Hatsumi teaches at a very high level and what he does can seem very elusive and difficult to a newcomer, you may very well walk away with nothing more than a cool visit to the Hombu, but IMO I would go anyway if you have the opportunity.


Markk Bush

Michael, good to see you here! in case anyone doesnt know, Michael runs the Pheonix Quest Center along with his wife Lori. Both hold rank in the Bujinkan as well.

Markk Bush

I would reccoment that you train with some people in the Bujinkan a little beforehand as you will find that many things in To Shin Do are not worded the same as in the Bujinkan......for example the elemental levels are not recognized in the Bujinkan. Hatsumi refers to them at various points in training but not the way that SKH does. I say this only so you get more out of your experience in Japan. Please keep in mind that Hatsumi teaches at a very high level and what he does can seem very elusive and difficult to a newcomer, you may very well walk away with nothing more than a cool visit to the Hombu, but IMO I would go anyway if you have the opportunity.

Well, of course I would train for quite awhile in a Bujinkan or Quest dojo within the USA before attempting a training session at the Hombu. I was just making sure that no matter which path I took I would still eventually be alllowed to train at the Hombu at some point later down the line.

Anyone can train at the Hombu Dojo with Hatsumi, however he only teaches at the 5th dan and above levels
10th dan and above, actually.

10th dan and above, actually.
Possibly beyond that even.

Markk Bush

If/when you make it to Japan you should make sure to train with the other Shihan as well. I remember training with Soke...being totally confused...then later training on the same material with Shiraishi sensei on the same material and having it totally click :) In this manner it really does not matter how experienced you are when going to Japan....although with more experience you will likely be able to bring back more upon your return.

By the way, welcome to MT!!!

I think most of us end up in a fog when training with Hatsumi sensei, simply because of the level of training. The last time I was in Japan, things clicked better for me when training with Noguchi sensei and Shiraishi sensei. I think this is mainly because they break things down a bit more in their classes, whereas Hatsumi sensei just "does" and expects you to steal the technique. If you try to look at the deeper feeling behind the techniques, though, you'll have plenty to work on no matter which of the Shihan you train with.

Jeff

10th dan and above, actually.
Hatsumi teaches whatever he wants to...

Since the Bujinkan has (ahem) "relaxed" requirements for rank -- identifying a rank he teaches to... is, well, fruitless.

-Daniel

This statement should end all statements in regards to ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo... It is posted so plain and simple.. to the point. No one could misunderstand it.. and in my opinion is right on.
I would vote it number one statement of 2004... in regards to ranking in the Bujinkan Dojo.

""Since the Bujinkan has (ahem) "relaxed" requirements for rank -- identifying a rank he teaches to... is, well, fruitless.""

Hayes shihan has staed he does still promote throught the Bujinkan if a student wishes to do so. This is what I heard as well this past year. Maybe it has changed.

In my opinion... I do not see any reason to be promoted outside the To shin do program with a Bujinkan ranking.

ralph severe, kamiyama

My initial reason for asking is that one day I might actually try to go train in Japan. I, as the new guy, was just getting the official standpoint on what the requirements are to be able to do so. That's why I was asking.

Thank you for your time.

__________________
- Commuter
(To-Shin Do Classical Taijutsu)
That tag line is --- ironic? (Contextual Irony...)

-Daniel

I don't get it.

I don't get it.To-Shin Do = A 'modern' taijutsu adaptation so to speak.

Having To-Shin Do along with Classical Taijutsu is kind of a oxymoron in certain respects. However in this respect you are saying you are studying the Classical Taijutsu program in the To-Shin Do family so it really isn't (in some respects). Whee...fun with words and concepts!

Classical Taijutsu....

Now do you feel or think Hatsumi sensei does 'Classical Taijutsu'...?

ralph severe, kamiyama

Classical Taijutsu....

Now do you feel or think Hatsumi sensei does 'Classical Taijutsu'...?

ralph severe, kamiyama
The name is too generic to mean anything... So yes and no.

Sorry for a vague answer --

-Daniel

That was just one name that the Ninpo Taijutsu in the Classical Warrior Arts fromgram went by. I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive.

If its that big of a deal, though, I'll change it. I just typed the first thing that came to mind.

BTW, Merry X-Mas.

That was just one name that the Ninpo Taijutsu in the Classical Warrior Arts fromgram went by. I don't know why everyone is getting so defensive.

If its that big of a deal, though, I'll change it. I just typed the first thing that came to mind.

BTW, Merry X-Mas.
Commuter...relax...I don't think anyone is getting defensive (I certainly wasn't). I can see why Dan said what he said...but I also know why you wrote as you wrote it.

I think all in all some good advice was given here...and some slight corrections made to what appeared to be misunderstandings.

Merry X-Mas to you as well :)

Perhaps I was the one getting defensive. I apologize.

Most of my attempts to become a member of a Ninpo discussion forum have turned for the worse due to people becoming defensive of who I train under and how I go about getting knowledge. Many seem to think that if I am not a full-time member of a Bujinkan Dojo that I don't deserve to get my word in. The only two exceptions so far are Quest-L and this one. :)

Thank you for clearing up all the issues I have brought to the table, everyone.

The only requirement is that you are a Bujinkan member (no rank requirement). As far as I know (at this time anyway) the same goes if you are a To-Shin Do practitioner...as long as you are a Bujinkan member as well there is no rank requirements. There are some things in the air which could change this, but only time will tell.

Yes that is what I have heard as well. You have to be a Bujinkan member in order to train at the hombu and with the various shihan I believe. I do not know nor think that you can get a Bujinkan Membership via the Dayton Quest Center. You might want to take this issue up with George Ohashi (sp?) at the kutaki.org forum. He is basically an administrator at the Bujinkan Hombu and should be able to answer your question for you.

Ok...Mr. Stinson, you have certainly struck my curiousity with your "There are some things in the air..." statement. What is in the air?

Deaf

I know I can get a Bujinkan Hombu Membership from Mr. VanDonk's site (http://www.ninjutsu.com). I don't think I'll go about spending my money on one just yet considering I don't particularly plan on going to Japan anytime soon with college draining most of my funds.

Ok...Mr. Stinson, you have certainly struck my curiousity with your "There are some things in the air..." statement. What is in the air?

Deaf
Nothing I am sure you have not read about elsewhere. I actually think little will come of it...but one never knows with these political thingies. *shrugs*