Am I a horrible person for being a martial artist?

[ShotoSan]

A few days ago, I decided the need to discuss martial arts with other martial artists online, to see their views an opinions.

I wanted to know a few things. For example, Ive studied martial art for 9 years, and I have become adept at sparring skills; why can't any one accept this? Does it make me a bad person for going to random dojos and saying 'Hi there, im moving across the country, and was wondering if I could try your ______ art?', and then sparring them, and most of the time not getting hit?

I feel like I would have been better off to quit rather than continue my path. I havent been told about history and tradition, I did a bunch of kata and wanted to expand. Now it feels like I am being punished for this! I just got bad mouthed on another post about being a martial arts fraud, because I didnt know the founder of Shotokan, and didnt spell Wado correctly.

Im not so sure it was wise to explore views of other martial artists. I would have hoped that coming online, and pretty much saying I AM SO CONFUSED ABOUT WHO I AM, that some people could show me the path instead of call me a fraud...

I dont feel very well right now, thanks a lot for the encouragement.

[Bob Hubbard]

There is nothing wrong with trying different arts, especially when traveling. What rubs people off is when ones postings seem to lack a sense of humility, or seem to say "look at me, see how cool I am".

Case in point....I'm a blue belt in Modern Arnis. I've had the pleasure to spar blackbelts, instructors, senior instructors and at least 1 grandmaster in my short time in the arts. I've run a couple of blackbelts (1 with 10+ years) off the matt. Whoopy. Means nothing, really other than I had a good day, and they didn't.

If you want to really progress in the arts, don't be a technique collector. You don't learn anything really from a couple of lessons. Ask lots of questions, and really look at the answers.

If you want to know the history and tradition, find solid traditional arts, ask alot of questions and do your homework. Too many schools today are over comercialized and tend to skimp on that information, due in part to the dwindeling attention span of the average customer.

If you quit, you will never know.

Personally, I'd rather toughen up a bit, take a few lumps, grow from it, and then prove my detractors wrong.

Martial arts, especially in the traditional sense is not just about 'fighting techniques'. There is a huge world of deeper development for you to discover, once you find a path and begin to explore it.

[ShotoSan]

Thanks a lot for that post. People here have been making me feel as though my tranining and effort, which is definatly more effort than most people (I am 17, and yes I have a lot of spare time to give to martial art; do it while I cant). I feel like dirt, because I dont know a few sensais traditions or spelling.

[Ceicei]

First of all, let me welcome you to MartialTalk, a place where different and varied opinions and thoughts are shared.

You're still a teenager. When you started out in martial arts, I would guess that learning the history part was not on your priority list during the past 9 years. That is pretty much how it is with my sons when they started in martial arts. They're not in it to learn history. They're in it because it's "fun". However, they are learning bit by bit about the history.

People study martial arts for many reasons. For some teenagers, they take martial arts because of the "cool" factor. That is not a bad reason as this is how youth frequently start out with martial arts. There will come a time when your reasons for studying/training martial arts will evolve.

You're at a point now that you are starting to want to learn the history part. You will find that there are many, many martial artists who care very deeply about the history and lineage, yes, even being very passionate about their martial arts. Don't let their dings bother you too much. Listen and learn from them and do some research of your own too. It is a good time now to start learning more about the history and lineages of the arts that you study. Ask questions and learn more about what you are studying. There are many here who will be willing to answer your questions.

Visiting dojos is not a bad thing. It can be fun to visit and learn from other places, styles. However, it is the way you presented yourself that comes across on this website as being rather arrogant. That is what bothers many martial artists who read your comments on this issue. Whether or not you did travel across the country to spar and "win battles" is besides the point. Try to learn humility when telling stories. For many of us, martial arts is more than just being "cool" and much more than being able to whomp another martial artist. Be careful when you choose to put down or denigrate other styles by labeling them "McMasters" or "McDojos". These people and places do exist but not every person/place that you meet or go will necessarily fit the criteria of being a McMaster/McDojo.

I'm glad to have you with us.

- Ceicei

[ShotoSan]

Thank you very much for that insight.

You are correct, I do need to learn humility in my actions. Looking back on my movement from Alberta to here, I guess it was pretty aragonat of me; all I wanted to do was test myself, not degrade other styles.

I am very sorry to offend people, and in my opinion if I do, they should tell me! I am trying to learn what makes a martial artist a good person, not just a good fighter....

Thanks again...

[Shu2jack]

I wanted to know a few things. For example, Ive studied martial art for 9 years, and I have become adept at sparring skills; why can't any one accept this? Does it make me a bad person for going to random dojos and saying 'Hi there, im moving across the country, and was wondering if I could try your ______ art?', and then sparring them, and most of the time not getting hit?

I feel like I would have been better off to quit rather than continue my path. I havent been told about history and tradition, I did a bunch of kata and wanted to expand. Now it feels like I am being punished for this! I just got bad mouthed on another post about being a martial arts fraud, because I didnt know the founder of Shotokan, and didnt spell Wado correctly.

Im not so sure it was wise to explore views of other martial artists. I would have hoped that coming online, and pretty much saying I AM SO CONFUSED ABOUT WHO I AM, that some people could show me the path instead of call me a fraud...

I dont feel very well right now, thanks a lot for the encouragement. It is not that people can not accept you have any skills, it is that when posting you presented yourself as arrogant and boastful. (To me at least.) You admitted yourself that you have a hard time not being cocky about your skills. I am not attacking you personally, but giving my personal observations as to why you were verbally "attacked", though I think they were bringing up valid points.

As far as sparring goes and the other stuf you mentioned in "What does a black belt truly mean?", remember things are not always as they seem. I started the MA when I was 11 and current I am 22. Things I thought I knew/understood, perceptions I had of myself/others, and various other things change as you grow in age, maturity (not calling you immature), and world experience. You may think you are being held back, your seniors may be seeing things in a different light. I don't believe students are held back. Unless your basics are PEFECT, then you should still be improving even though you are not making any advancment in terms of rank. I have been in TKD for 11 years. I know some people who have started after me and are 4th degrees, while I am still a 2nd degree. Am I being held back? No, abilities and technical skills have improved vastly even though I have been "stuck" where I am at for a much longer period of time than normal.

I don't know what type of sparring/rules you use, but ask yourself this: If I was running a MA school, why would I hurt a MINOR (you are 17) whom I have never met? That is asking for a lawsuit. Maybe the instructors sucked. Maybe they were afraid of a lawsuit if they hurt someone "just visiting" (especially a young adult). Maybe they had no desire to really go all out (or even partially out) with you. Trust me, after 9 years of the martial arts I am sure you could find someone better than you who could "beat" or beat on you. My instructor didn't start really knocking me on my ass until I was 17. Up until that point he wouldn't "beat" me because of how he was sparring and what he was trying to teach me. Once I reached a certain level of experenice, age, and I was physically ready he would put aggressiveness/"intent" into his attacks and he would make sure I felt it the next day.

Just some things to think about. Don't quit your art, but rememeber that we are both young. Instead of thinking about how other instructors don't know what they are talking about, or that you are being held back, or that you never get beaten, think about why that is. Why are you not being promoted. Are your skills really what you think they are. How are you sparring? I find that asking such questions keeps me humble and I have gained a better understanding of myself and my seniors.

[ShotoSan]

Again, another good post. If any one reading this thinks I can learn please let me have that chance!

The reason for my not having black belt in Shotokan and Wado *are* because I am not 18. My sensais have verbally told me this, its just something they do not do, and the grand masters are hardly around where I study.

I have learned in just these past 3 days Ive been at martial talk, how to be a better person, and a better martial artist. Thank you all very much.

Keep the comments coming!

[Adept]

For example, Ive studied martial art for 9 years, and I have become adept at sparring skills; why can't any one accept this? Does it make me a bad person for going to random dojos and saying 'Hi there, im moving across the country, and was wondering if I could try your ______ art?', and then sparring them, and most of the time not getting hit?
The biggest issue I've had with you is highlighted in the above paragraph. You see, the internet is a very anonymous place. I dont know who you are, and you dont know who I am. To me, it sounds like you are an arrogant 17 year old with an inflated sense of his own skills.

Your story seems extremely unlikely, and a general rule of thumb on the internet is "If it smells like bullsh!t, it probably is".

Move away from trying to prove to everyone else how 'hard' or 'tough' you are on an internet forum, and people will warm to you.

[MA-Caver]

Thank you very much for that insight.
You are correct, I do need to learn humility in my actions. Looking back on my movement from Alberta to here, I guess it was pretty aragonat of me; all I wanted to do was test myself, not degrade other styles.
I am very sorry to offend people, and in my opinion if I do, they should tell me! I am trying to learn what makes a martial artist a good person, not just a good fighter....
Thanks again...
ShotoSan, I think what got you off on the wrong foot was your ignorance of just who is on this particular forum... in every art mentioned that has their own respective forum you will find senior masters and even Grand Masters as well as BB's of varying rank/years. Go down the membership listing and click at random on a particular name and see what their ranking/style/experience level says. Heck, on the posts that have been slamming you lately you should see to the far right just who is talking to you.
Compare it to walking into Bruce Lee's Dojo and presume to tell him how to do JKD. What do you think is gonna happen? ....
You began with some pretty bold statements that the seniors (in age and rank) found kinda hard to swallow. They've been around and know schitt from shinola.
I think personally they were too hard on you and (probably) didn't take the time to look at your pesonal profile and realise your age compared to the number of years you've been studying Martial Arts. Ceicei was right in that probably history wasn't your biggest priority in learning MA right now/then. No sweat and so what? For us older *ahem* guys yeah History has a bit more appeal because it helps us understand better what we're (individually) studying. You, you're young and got a long ways to go. Lots to learn to be sure. Diplomacy is one of those many things.
If someone you feel is giving you a hard time unnecessarily on MT then by all means let mods know about it. Look for the folks that have MT Mentors as well, because Mods can't catch everything.
I will say this your latter posts have shown that you were (are??) willing to learn from us no matter how rough it may get. *wink-wink* *nudge-nudge* it just might get some of those guys to start respecting you eh?
Either way stick around, someone starts slamming you and pushing your buttons then re-read what they have to say. Look between the lines of what they're saying. Look at who they are and then try to see where they're coming from.
We got all types of arts here, we got all types/levels of rank and consenquently... we got all types of people. Some are gonna get in your face and others are gonna stand behind you. It's up to you to find the ones you want to hang out with and learn from.
But as you've already once observed... you can learn something from everyone of us.
Peace
:asian:

[Blooming Lotus]

Thanks a lot for that post. People here have been making me feel as though my tranining and effort, which is definatly more effort than most people (I am 17, and yes I have a lot of spare time to give to martial art; do it while I cant). I feel like dirt, because I dont know a few sensais traditions or spelling.
I understand so well. I have been doing the exact same thing for yrs and plan to continue doing exactly that( thailand being my next stop for muay thai). I get trashed alot for my training choices and get called all sorts of things from a liar to incompitent to an old man having a laugh in Alabama ( and I haven't even been to states !!!)

I don't agree with Kaith that you don't learn anything, but frankly, I think that only attending for a short time, it makes it really hard to retain the bulk of it. So I choose the best techs and apps ( rather than forms) and put it together drilling them at every opp.

It's a fair decision you make to train the way you do, but just barte in mind, that there are maers out here who train one kata or form ofr what have you , for years and years!!! Just be firm in resoloution of why you do it this way, and don't expect everyone to congradulate you for it. A buddhist disciple once said " find peace in your practice" and for me , being it's how I make sense of the world, and given another quote from a co-member on another board ( gongfu is moving meditation) there is little else that does it for me the same.

cheers, practice in earnest and stay strong ;)

Blooming Lotus

[shesulsa]

Shotosan,

There is more to being a martial artist that sparring people from a lot of different dojangs. So you can fight, so what?

Being a good fighter is not all that there is about being a martial artist. You are young, and you were not taught the other important elements of MA. This does not mean you're a bad person, you simply are young. That's not a bad thing, unless you do bad things with it.

The fact that you feel bad right now is what we call your humility lesson. Allow yourself to feel this enough to understand the importance of walking softly but carrying a big stick. When you go to other dojangs to "try out their art" but only go to spar, that's not learning about their art. Here's a few tips about visiting dojangs outside of the school you attend:

1. Don't even step foot in the door without doing some research on the style first. Know your stuff before you enter.

2. Approach the school from the standpoint of a white belt. Don't assume you know it all (no one knows it all) or that your style is better than theirs or you're the better MAis because you can beat the people in it up. That is called arrogance.

3. Ask if you may observe a lesson or two and if invited to step onto the mat, decline and ask if you may take a raincheck. This proves to the instructor that you are there to LEARN - not prove yourself.

4. Understand that pride in your art can be misconstrued as egotism or conceitedness if you don't wear your pride appropriately. For instance, you would not likely wear your rank to the grocery store or on the football field, or to the prom. It is yours and you only wear it when it is appropriate to do so. This is what you must mentally do when you are outside your school.

5. Ask questions about the art, its origins, the school's head instructor or master and always thank them for their time.

6. NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER BRAG! If you're asked about your art or your accomplishments, wave it off and say that you're just a student trying to learn more about martial arts. You really don't need to tell everybody how good you are. If the time and place arrives for them to find out, they will.

The key here is that your training is lacking in some important areas - don't give up, just pick up where you need to. If your kicks were crappy, you'd work on them, right? If you couldn't do the splits, you'd stretch a lot. So now, spend some time reading up on history, the great artists in your style and make OBSERVATION your friend right now.

You'll find that people are more willing to listen to you if you listen to them.

Make sense?

[MJS]

A few days ago, I decided the need to discuss martial arts with other martial artists online, to see their views an opinions.

[quote]I wanted to know a few things. For example, Ive studied martial art for 9 years, and I have become adept at sparring skills; why can't any one accept this? Does it make me a bad person for going to random dojos and saying 'Hi there, im moving across the country, and was wondering if I could try your ______ art?', and then sparring them, and most of the time not getting hit?

On thing, and I've seen it mentioned already, but I'll say it again...don't brag about something. One wise thing to remember, is that there is always someone bigger, better, and badder out there. People who walk around with that "larger than life" attitude, need to step down a few pegs and humble themselves. I've been in the arts for 17+, but I don't walk around saying that I'm the best, because I'm not.

As for going from school to school to school...if you're always relocating, and you want to train, then go train. But, be respectful when you enter that school. If you walk in like you're the "king", chances are, you just may get that humbling lesson in the ring. In addition, I wouldnt say that I'm training in that art. If you're only at a place for a week, then move on, how can you say you trained in it? I've gone to seminars for arts that I've never done before. I use it as a learning tool. I don't run around and say, Hey, in addition to my Kenpo and BJJ, I also train in this now. If you were learning for quite a while, then yes, I'd say you were 'training' or 'studying' that art.


I feel like I would have been better off to quit rather than continue my path. I havent been told about history and tradition, I did a bunch of kata and wanted to expand. Now it feels like I am being punished for this! I just got bad mouthed on another post about being a martial arts fraud, because I didnt know the founder of Shotokan, and didnt spell Wado correctly.

In life, people are not always gonna hold your hand, and guide you through everything. Take this as a humbling exp. I would think though, that after spending a certain amount of time in an art, that one would know some of the basic history of that art. Ex: The founder, how to spell it, what the art is all about, etc.


Im not so sure it was wise to explore views of other martial artists. I would have hoped that coming online, and pretty much saying I AM SO CONFUSED ABOUT WHO I AM, that some people could show me the path instead of call me a fraud...

There are a ton of arts out there..some better than others. First off, I highly suggest that you sit down and write up a list of what you want out of the Martial Arts. Are you looking for striking arts, grappling arts, etc? From that list, search out some schools and check them out. Again, there is sooo much out there, don't settle on the first thing you see, check things out first. IMO, its really not wise to settle on the first thing you see.

The internet is a good place to research, as well as this forum. There are a huge amount of people here, with various experience. Ask questions.

In closing, I'll say this again. Keep an open mind, and don't be cocky!

Good luck in your search. If you have more questions, feel free to ask. If you don't want to ask them on the forum, feel free to email or PM someone.

Mike

[hardheadjarhead]

ShotoSan,

The root of this friction is best found at the following thread, which I post for those here who are unaware of it:

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19925

On your Personal Profile you list the Tsurouka Federation (which you spelled wrong) and RMC karate Club as two organizations you train with. The latter is an affiliate of the former.

http://www.interlog.com/~brat/tkf/home.html

You claimed to study Shotokan under Tsuruoka and this organization for nine years, though he doesn't teach that art, being a master of Chito Ryu. Granted, there is a link between Shotokan and Chito Ryu, but Tsuruoka doesn't claim to teach Shotokan. The two styles parted ways long ago, apparently.

Of interest, there is one person claiming that Tsuruoka is teaching what is essentially Shotokan (which you do), and he spells Tsuruoka's name incorrectly and identically to the way you do in your personal profile:

http://www.guglenko.ca/karate.php

I get the impression from the Tsuruoka's web site (the one spelled correctly) that he and his people run a tight organization. They will have your name on file and be able to verify your training. I will contact them if you like in order to set this matter to rest. I won't mention your alleged sparring matches countrywide so as not to get you in any hot water.

Agreed?





Regards,


Steve

[ShotoSan]

If you want to contact them, fill your boots. I will not say otherwise than this. Tsurouka taught me Shotokan at one point in my life. He was NOT my personal Sensei, Geroge Day was.

However doing our 'bow in', we would go into sais hut (spelling?), and bow to Tsuourka. That was in our Shotokan dojo. When he came down, we would do things no different. I used to live in Kingston Ontario, which is about 3 hours away from Toronto.

Also, I doubt he would remember me, I havent see him for years and years, and was only green belt at the time; why would he remember me?

[ShotoSan]

http://www.@s94569260.onlinehome.us/tsurouka.jpg
(Something is screwd up with the link, if propted just click yes)

This is a picture taken long ago, in my Shotokan Dojo.
From left to right. Me, Sensei Tsurouka, my friend Ryan.

He came down to the dojo to teach us Shotokan karate. Also, I have a T-shirt that he signed, and it is a big logo of the Tsurouka federation, Ill scan and send if you want to.

Why is it so hard to belive he did Shotokan?

[Cruentus]

Perhaps you were really doing Chito-Ryu, but your instructor George Day had it advertized as Shotokan for marketing reasons? Perhaps George Day started in Shotokan, but is now part of Chito-Ryu? Or perhaps he is ranked in both, but is part of Tsurouka Federation? Is George Day around for you to ask?

I'm saying little about the rest of this because you'll probably be offended. But I am wondering about the Shotokan Tsurouka thing...

Paul

[ShotoSan]

No it cant be true... at least I dont think; then again it is possible... raises some issues, Ill contact Sensei Day as soon as I can...

That may answer some questions, but you wont hear how it goes, my account is being deleted soon...
soo long

[Blooming Lotus]

It's a shame to hear that. Good luck in your journey anyway and if you choose to continue your martial practice, I wish you all the best teaching of all the aspects you seek.



Blooming Lotus

[shesulsa]

... and to think ... I wasted perfectly good words on that individual. Ah well, c'est la vie.

[MA-Caver]

I don't think they were wasted on US hunny, the active posters and the lurkers. :D

[hardheadjarhead]

If you want to contact them, fill your boots. I will not say otherwise than this. Tsurouka taught me Shotokan at one point in my life. He was NOT my personal Sensei, Geroge Day was.




I was going to ask a few more questions. Looks like he left.

I might contact George Day anyway, just out of curiosity.


FWIW, the link he posted shows what appears to be a recent picture of Tsuruoka if you contrast it to pictures on his site.

Oh well!



Regards,


Steve

[MJS]

... and to think ... I wasted perfectly good words on that individual. Ah well, c'est la vie.

Yeah, same here!

Mike

[TigerWoman]

You know teenagers...you can say the same thing over and over for years and one day, as a twenty something they realize what you were saying was ...true! TW

[Ryan Nune]

Hi im a noob but i dont understand why every one are meanines he just wanted to say that he was good

[Flatlander]

Hi im a noob but i dont understand why every one are meanines he just wanted to say that he was goodHi Ryan, welcome to Martial Talk.

Before condemning all of the contributors as "meanies", I'd like to encourage you to do some more reading, and try to get a real good feel for why this unfortunate young fellow received the responses that he did. The truth of the matter is that in an anonymous internet forum, people are judged not by who they are, but what they say. There are numerous folks on this board who have been involved in the arts long enough that they are able to discern the differences between honest and dishonest statements. When inconsistencies are uncovered, questions arise.

I wouldn't worry much about it, though. Martial Talk is for honest, frank, and friendly discussion of the arts. All who approach the discussion in an honest way are generally rewarded with an informative experience.

I have not a great deal of experience in the arts, but I must say that I have learned a great deal here. There is always more to be discovered. I feel very lucky to have the opportunity to engage in discussion with people of the level of experience that we have here, and am grateful that when they see things that don't fit, they call them out and uncover them. It protects inexperienced people like me from blindly believing things that are not entirely accurate.

Anyway, enjoy your stay, and happy posting, Ryan. Its nice to meet you.

[MA-Caver]

Hi Ryan, welcome to Martial Talk.
I wouldn't worry much about it, though. Martial Talk is for honest, frank, and friendly discussion of the arts. All who approach the discussion in an honest way are generally rewarded with an informative experience.

I'll add further that because of the format of discussion groups it's nearly impossible to disconcern a (serious) post by it's intended tone. It's honest but there are tactful ways to express that honest opinion verbally to not cause ire and resentment via tonal inflections with the voice.
So reading something one has to project their idea of how the (poster) is coming across. Are they "in your face?" or are they calmly expressing difference of opinion in a level tone of voice? Hard to know for 100% certianty unless they say so before hand and lots of people don't. They just type what's on their mind and it's up to the reader to do the disconcernment of how that post is speaking to them.
If you're challenged on something you say here then first read between the lines and if it still ticks you off then the best method of course is to wait a day and reply.
I was very disappointed that this young man gotten a bad taste in his mouth for MT. It is a fine forum and nearly everyone here is willing to impart their knowledge freely. Not everyone here however; has the social and writing skills to express themselves in the manner of a peaceful discussion. That, takes time to learn. :asian:
Enjoy your stay and take everything you hear not as gospel truth but as truthful as it can be considering the circumstances. Look also at the poster's level of experience on the right hand side of their name, because that is one of the better indicators that the individual knows what they're talking about.

[shesulsa]

Hi im a noob but i dont understand why every one are meanines he just wanted to say that he was good Hi Ryan.

Without trying to read condescending or rude, please consider: as one matures, both in life and in art, if one should realize that one truly IS 'good,' one finds that one does not have to talk about it so.

I suppose each person's perception of 'good' varies somewhat. A popular belief amongst the martial artists I've met is that one is never good enough. Even the most talented, capable, the fastest, strongest, winningest artist is ALWAYS looking to improve - not strut around. If a person has a problem (as this young fellow admits he has) "not being cocky" about his/her abilities, this is really not what most people would condone as good behavior for a martial artist.

I would never allow someone like this to enter a dojang I ran and spar my students. I don't believe it's a good plan, in general, and I would be hard to convince otherwise.

A person's demeanor speaks volumes as to who they are. This young man clearly is not aware of the situation that is challenging him at the moment.

It is a pity he left rather than stay and learn.

These are the most valuable lessons in martial arts, in my opinion, those of character. It very well might not be his fault - perhaps he was taught incorrectly.

Then again, who really knows? Only he. And if his conscience weren't bothering him so, he would not have left in such a huff.

Does any of this make sense to you?

[Gin-Gin]

... and to think ... I wasted perfectly good words on that individual. Ah well, c'est la vie.
I don't think they were wasted at all, Georgia. I'm glad you posted them, & I think they were very well articulated (as were most of the other posts). I was glad to read them, and who knows, maybe he printed your post & read it again? Maybe he will apply it? :idunno:

Even if he never comes back to MT, I can tell from reading the posts in this thread that he took all of the posts seriously and was beginning to understand how he "came across" to folks--and that he has more to learn. This may sound a bit naive, but by getting him to think about how he thinks of himself & how he relates to other people, you (and all of the people at MT with whom he corresponded) have changed him in some way, and IMHO, that made it worthwhile. :asian:

[shesulsa]

Gin-Gin, you are kind. Thank you very much for the compliment. If anyone can learn from it, I am honored.

G

[Bob Hubbard]

Good advice given honestly is never wasted, for by the act if giving you yourself are enriched. If the other does not understand or use your gift, that in no way diminishes your intent or heart.

:asian: