I recently was studying traditional Ninpo, when Shihan had to close the dojo. Now the only other dojo(s) in my city that seem to be close to what we were studying are the bujinkan ones. Is there a huge differece, do they encompass ninpo? And secondly, I know this sort of stuff wont be readily available on the net, but aside from searching old classmates, is there anyway of attaining ninpo syllabus, or is it instructor specific?

Thank You.

D

A compassionate heart will always overcome a sharp blade.

Since I am the local ogre, let me be blunt.

It sounds like your old dojo was one of the many frauds that tried to emulate what was done in the Bujinkan. Unless it was Genbukan, Jinenkan or something started by someone from those two schools, then the chances of your school having a link to Japan are pretty slim.

To answer your questions, different schools in the Bujinkan train in different ways and areas. It is hard to say what you will get off hand.

If I knew your old teacher's name and the name of his style I could be more specific, but I have seen cases like this time and time again. There is so much out there on Bujinkan training and so many people take those videos, etc and try to pass it off as their own with a few other things thrown in.

As far as being a "fraud" I do not believe this is the case, as Shihan hardly charged us enough fees to pay the rent on the dojo. As well he has gifts from grandmasters hes has trained with in Japan, whom gave him his 5th dan. I beleive it was Hatsumoto, not sure. At any rate his name is Paul Lawrence. And he only ever referred to it as ninpo.(taijutsu,jujustu,bujutsu,ninjutsu).

D

Please forgive me, I meant hatsumi, not hatsumoto. its late.

Yep, sounds like a fraud. Hatsumi is head of the Bujinkan. So if your teacher claims to have gotten a fifth dan from him but was not part of the Bujinkan it just smells like week old fish. There are fake certificates and such, and some people have gone to a single seminar with him just to get their picture taken with him. If he was not part of the Bujinkan but claimed to have gotten a fifth dan it is just too bizarre for words.

People do fraudulant things to build up their ego as well as their bank account sometimes. I have heard the same type of things said about Jack Stern and his lack of financial motive. Do a search here and find out just how big a fraud he is.

have you ever heard of warrior hall international or academy of japanese martial arts? this is the name of the dojo. www.warriorhall.com is the website. still not totally convinced on the whole fraud thing. if you could give some more inpiut it would be greatly appreciated.

D

As well, he has taught us such things as kenjutsu, jujutsu, daiken taijutsu, ect. he just seems to be too good and have too much knowlage to be a fake.

Taken from the site,

Mr. Lawrence has been graded at the Hombu Dojo in Japan to Seventh Dan, by Grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi, and is certified as such.
Mr. Lawrence has also had the honour of training under Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura, has studied Judo and has Dan grades in Karate.


I do not know if this is true or not. But I can tell you that seventh dan is not all that great a rank in the Bujinkan nor is it an indicator of the person's knowledge of ninpo. I do not think you can call what he did traditional since it is probably just what he could peice together from his experiences.

But if you train in the Bujinkan, you will learn from the people who taught your teacher- if it is true.

he just seems to be too good and have too much knowlage to be a fake.


Are you an expert yourself? How can you say this if you are not? Every fraud has students who think they are too good to be a fraud. In this case, it seems like someone with a little experience in the Bujinkan, etc, putting together his own style.

Now, if I venture into bujinkan, will my grading be accepted, or will i have to start as a beginner again?

Unless you have grading from the honbu in Japan, your rank is worthless.

True, it does not bother me. Ii am only interested in gaining the knowlage and trying to become the best that I can in order to help others. I truly believe in the benevolent heart. And all that ninpo stands for. I assume that kihon hapo, and sanchin no kata are taught in the bujinkan discipline. As well the knowlage I have gained from Sensei Paul will not do me any harm in bujinkan.

I assume.

p.s. please forgive any spelling error or mispronounciation.

D

As well if some one could post the grading structure and advancement in ninpo/ninjutsu/bujinkan it would be greatly appreciated.

It varies dojo to dojo but the "official ranks" (ranks issued by Hombu Dojo) are:
Green/Red Belt

Nine kyu ranks

Black Belt

10 dan ranks (with five levels of tenth degree)

Five levels of Judan
Judan Chi-i
Judan Sui-i
Judan Ka-i
Judan Fu-i
Judan Ku-i

After achieving Shodan, one can become a Shidoshi-Ho and teach but award ranks though a full instructor. After achieving Godan, one can become Shidoshi. Note that the Shidoshi licensing is not required unless one wants to teach; ie. you can be a judan and not have a teaching license because you elect not to teach.
Hope this helps,
Jibran

I forgot to welcome you Bushi to the Traditional Ninjutsu section in particular and Martialtalk in general.

I must warn you that your opinion that what you learned from your old teacher will not harm what you do in the Bujinkan may be a bit premature. You may find that your old teacher dropped or never knew certain important points and added certain things that may clash with how things are done in more standard Bujinkan dojos.

I must warn you that your opinion that what you learned from your old teacher will not harm what you do in the Bujinkan may be a bit premature. You may find that your old teacher dropped or never knew certain important points and added certain things that may clash with how things are done in more standard Bujinkan dojos.
As an 8th kyu, I doubt he's had much time to develop too many bad habits, unlike someone like me... ;)

Jeff

Bushi, Did you get a certificate from your teacher?

Thank you for your posts. This information has been very helpful. No i did not get a certificate from my sensei. However, I had a chance to breifly talk to the instructor at Bujinkan Tenchijin Dojo here in Calgary, and it would seem that based upon what they will determine from my previous teachings, I will probably not start at beginner level, and he said that Sensei Paul is recognised, only in a different school than Bujinkan(I did not catch the name).

I know you're so used to it, Don, but I think you jumped the gun when you brought out the F-word (fraud). The first thing I thought of when I saw the words "traditional" and "ninpo" in Bushi's post was =Genbukan.

A quick search on Paul Lawrence brings up mention of the Kurama Dojo which is a Genbukan Dojo.

Likely what happened, is Mr. Lawrence started in the Bujinkan, got his 5th dan - 7th dan from Hatsumi, then switched over to Genbukan.

It is still a bit fishy since on the website, Mr. Lawrence only credits Hatsumi for his rank and only mentions Tanemura in the sense of "...also had the honour of training under Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura."

So he might no longer be a member of the Bujinkan, but might also not yet have teaching credentials for Genbukan.

Bushi, do you know any more details on why he had to close the dojo?

"...he said that Sensei Paul is recognised, only in a different school than Bujinkan..."

He's probably recognized in Genbukan, but recognized as a student, or as an instructor?


Regardless of any of the above, if you have a Bujinkan dojo in the area, go there and train, I'm sure you'll find what you're looking for.

And yes, syllabi and curricula varies from instructor to instructor in the Bujinkan. I assume though that a Tenchijin Dojo would use the Tenchijin Ryaku no Maki as a training guide.

Good luck with your training Bushi, Your instructors will probably watch you for awhile to see what kind of movement you have learned and then place you were it will be most beneficial to you. Dont throw away what you have already learned, but add to it. Train on what they are doing there, and then filter what you have already learned through that. Enjoy the path.

Thank you. and yes, not to discredit don, i mean no disrespect but i believe he jumped te gun on the fraud thing too. However I am going to pursue a Bujinkan dojo, and add to my training. Sensei paul had to close the dojo due to financial strain and personal family events that i wish not to expose on behalf of mr. lawrence. but again i thank you for all the info you have given me. I do have one other question. In the Bujinkan school, does it encompass ninpo? and does it still follow the path of the nin/kokoru/benevolent heart?

thank you

D

While my brain is working, what is the difference between Bujinkan and Genbukan? And I beleive Sensei Paul did study both as mentioned above.


D

Thank you. and yes, not to discredit don, i mean no disrespect but i believe he jumped te gun on the fraud thing too.

Don't worry about saying harsh things about me. I can take it. And I happen to agree with your opinion. It is just that the words "traditionall" applied to an art that is not part of the three that are mentioned in this charter set off alarms in my head. There have been soooo many times that I have seen that used inreference to a totally fake art that my suspicions were raised.

I still do not see how something that is, in essence, something cobbled together from various sources like that by an American can be called traditional. It would not fit in the description of arts allowed in this section. But as long as the guy has not lied about something, he is not a fruad in my book.

I think that what you find in a Bujinkan dojo will be different from dojo to dojo. But the art as a whole has what you seem to be looking for.

Oh, and I would suggest you try to find info on the differences between the Genbukan and the Bujinkan by searching past threads at places like e-budo.com. Every time that subject has come up, it seems to develop into a flame war as a small number of troublemakers from both orginizations jump in to take shots at the other. Imagine if you asked what the difference is between the Democratic party and the Republican party on a chat forum and you may understand why I look at the question with a bit of fear.

Thank you for your posts Don, your info has been of great help to me. And I totally understand why you would take that stance first hand after all, i'm sure ,like you said, you see tons of cases of false claims. Everyone has provided me with excellent info thank you. And for the record(FYI) he's English/Canadian. Not American. Still though my one question remains, is Ninpo part of Bujinkan, or was that answered subtley in "you will find what you are looking for in Bujinkan"?

Domo

D

Yes.

Thank you

but aside from searching old classmates, is there anyway of attaining ninpo syllabus, or is it instructor specific?.
Take your pick:

http://www.daytonbujinkan.com/BKR/BKR-downloads.html

http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

http://www.bujinkan.com/guidelines.htm

Thank you Kizaru, your links were of much help. I noticed on a lot of the kyu's that I have been graded on certain "areas" in a variety of the kyu's. (does that make sense?) for eg. My grades included kihon happo, 16 fists, and sanchin no kata, and wrist escapes which were spread out between kyus ranging up to 6th. So it will be interesting to see where they put me in the dojo.

It is still a bit fishy since on the website, Mr. Lawrence only credits Hatsumi for his rank and only mentions Tanemura in the sense of "...also had the honour of training under Grandmaster Shoto Tanemura."

Mr Lawrence is no longer in the Genbukan. If you go to www.genbukan.org you will not be able to find Kurama dojo under the Genbukan anymore. I believe he left sometime around 2001 or 2002. I don't think he was in the Genbukan that long either.

Thank you Kizaru, your links were of much help. I noticed on a lot of the kyu's that I have been graded on certain "areas" in a variety of the kyu's. (does that make sense?)
No.

George I beleive you are right, I think he is no longer associated with any particular school. As for Kizaru, let me explain(or try to). basically, i was graded to 8th kyu ninpo. in doing so i was graded on kihon happo, sanchin no kata, and various others as well as the 16 fists. I noticed on one of the links that the entire 6 kyu was 16 fists and that sanchin no kata and kihon happo were in other kyus such as 8th and 7th i think, or was it 5? not sure. Anyways, hope that clears up what I was trying to say. So like I said it will be interesting to see what my skill level is in bujinkan.

Bushi, dont worry about this. It seems that all the teachers i trained under had their curriculum arranged in a different manner, but it all goes to the same place. Eventually and sooner than you think, you will pass all this onto greater challenges. It is more important to enjoy the path.

I must warn you that your opinion that what you learned from your old teacher will not harm what you do in the Bujinkan may be a bit premature. You may find that your old teacher dropped or never knew certain important points and added certain things that may clash with how things are done in more standard Bujinkan dojos.
regardless of what rubbish people are taught i reckon it's better to be doing anything and call it exercise then sitting on the couch growing your behind.

moving is moving, and provided you're willing to empty your cup when you go to a new class it shouldn't affect you too much.

the bujinkan dojo in my city is a branch of bill atkins' dojo in california. any particular thoughts on his dojo(s)

Bill Atkins is a great practicioner. The question would be what kind of student he turns out, which I do not know. Or rather, what kind of teacher he turns out, which again I do not know. Babe Ruth was a terrible coach despite his fame as a player. Can we say the same about Atkins? All I can say is that Atkins himself is a great person and full of knowledge. He is one of the most knowledgable people in the Bujinkan and one of the least willing to call attention to himself.

Bill Atkins is a great practicioner. The question would be what kind of student he turns out, which I do not know. Or rather, what kind of teacher he turns out, which again I do not know. Babe Ruth was a terrible coach despite his fame as a player. Can we say the same about Atkins? All I can say is that Atkins himself is a great person and full of knowledge. He is one of the most knowledgable people in the Bujinkan and one of the least willing to call attention to himself.
I will admit to being a bit biased - but I am nothing but impressed with the other TenChiJin Dojo instructors.

As to what kind of teacher he turns out - that is a moot question. There is no Quality Control on teaching ability - either you have it or you don't. The only thing you can do is equip someone with the right knowledge and a system to pass on that knowledge...

On a related note (and perhaps this is a different thread) - it has been my observation that teachers who engrain scientific principles as opposed to feelings tend to get more consistent results in their students.

Teaching is as much an art as painting...

-Daniel

One of the things I appreciate most about my current teacher is that he takes the time not only to instruct in an "ordinary" manner, but also to explain how to do things WRONG.

Good to know. I look forward to studying under the Bujinkan.