How close are kumdo and kendo? Can kumdo practitioners compete in kendo tournaments? I gather so from this page (http://www.kumdo.com/):


Our school has been certified by the Korean Kumdo Association which is a founding member of the international Kendo Federation.


Also, is there a Korean version of iaido?

I read recently that kumdo practitioners follow the Japanese kendo federation, and that it is quite close to kendo.

This from this book (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1570280681/qid%3D1021430658/ref%3Dsr%5F11%5F0%5F1/102-4447365-8711356) that i was thumbing through in the bookstore.

I have only seen a few articles and stories about Kumdo in the past, so I am not even going to pretend to be an expert. However, from what I have read, it is a Korean sword art which is founded on Chinese sword tactics. It was primarily done with a straight sword of Chinese design (like the gim, or Tai Chi straightsword), but is currently practiced with a curved blade like a Japanese katana.

The primary form of attack was thrusting, with a secondary emphasis on slashing, from what I could tell. Also, some of the articles that I have read have indicated that Kumdo practitioners can and do participate in Kendo tournaments and can hold their own--it's just a matter of their "playing by the rules" of the Kendo tournaments and USKF. If the school is affiliated with the USKF, then I doubt there would be any problems there.

Again, I am no expert, that's just my 2 cents' worth.

Peace--

I don't know anything about kumdo, but I think it's great that people can pratice something else an still be part of each other........


/Yari

I´ve got the idea that kendo and kumdo are actually one and same art,practically.
Kumdo is what they call it in korean,while kendo...
A bit like japanese art of judo which is also slightly popular in korea and called yudo in there,don´t know if that´s a good example though.
:)

The current issue of Martial Art magazine (from CFW) has an article on kumdo featuring Scott Shaw. The style is more in line with iaido than kendo as shown in this article.

INteressting Arnisador...

More Iaido than kendo. But what is the Korean twist.

I had this sensei once tell me that one of the biggist differances between korea and Japan, was the way the expressed tehmselves while chanting ( he was alot into Zen). While the japanese chanting was monoton, and straight, the korean was bouncy and muscial. He said that it showed in the MA from the contries. Were the japanese would try and keep the same hight, center in focus and so on, the korean would "bounce" more.

I don't know if this is true, but a "korean" iaido I'd like to see and compare....


/Yari

This was only pictures and text, of course, so it's hard to say about the movement. But it was a steel blade and an emphasis on drawing it, and they often said "Like in iaido..." in the text.

What about stances? Anything there? Any pictures that could show something, or did it just "japanese"?

/Yari

Many of the pictures were upper body only; the few stances I saw seemed wider than I expected from the Japanese systems, but I don't know that they're typical.

From what I understand, there are two forms of "Kumdo". The one most people will encounter is very similar, if not identical, to kendo, since it was taught to Koreans during the Japanese occupation (while visiting my Aunt in Korea this past summer, I mentioned I studied sword and she all of a sudden jumped forward and cried "Tsuki!", much to my surprise -- she was taught in high school during the occupation) -- after the removal of the Japanese influence, Kumdo was still practiced by some people, and though some variations have entered into the system, they aren't significant enough to allow instant discernment between the two arts. Therefore pratictioners of this Kumdo can and do participate in kendo tournaments -- most of the ceremonies are similar as well.
The second, and more rare, Kumdo is an indigenous Korean sword art. I don't know much about it being taught as its own art, but sword is taught as part of Kuk Sool Won, among other styles. Certain elements are similar to Chinese sword (jumps, elegant circular motion, a variety of stances, incorporation of kicking), and certain elements are similar to Japanese sword (strong linear cuts, the design of the weapon).
I hope this helps!

Nicholas

Interesting--thanks!

The key word for understanding the difference is "ethnocentricism". Look it up.

While we live in a modern world where former enemies are our staunchest allies, the wounds of the past don't always disappear. The Koreans still remember the Japanese occupation of their country and the decimation of their populace and resources. The Japanese, who clearly won "the peace" take great pride in their resilience and are very proud of their history including their contribution to the martial arts.

The Koreans have a sword tradition that dates back to the time of Musashi, if not before. The are offended by the notion that the Japanese "invented" Kendo. But clearly, the Japanese made it a sport, created the armor, codified the rules and the customs surrounding the art. Most Koreans acknowledge the contribution and then remind you of their own sword tradition.

I study Kumdo. The translation of the word and the running of our classes is virtually identical to everything I've read about Kendo. The Koreans have changed a few minor aspects such as the form of bow, the color of flags used by judges, the color of beginner's uniforms etc. Some people believe the Korean approach is a bit more aggressive, but my opinion is that the style of the individual practitioner is not a commentary of the art.

Kumdo is Kendo through the eyes of a ethnicity reluctant to credit their former adversaries with anything. But, times are changing and I do not detect open hostiltiy toward anything Japanese in our Dojang. We interchange Korean/Japanese words for things we do and objects we use and there is nothing but respect shown for anything having to do with the discipline.

Hello, Old Warrior. I am greatly interested in the difference between Kumdo and Kendo, and I was hoping you can elaborate on what was wrong in my post. From what I could tell, we made the same points, excepting the "ethocentricism" angle.

Thanks,
Nicholas

"I was hoping you can elaborate on what was wrong in my post"

There's nothing "wrong with your post". My personal opinion is that Kumdo and Kendo are the same. They both literally translate to "the way of the sword". There is nothing in the lineage of the Korean Sword Arts, of which I am aware, that resembles, in any way "the practice of swordsmanship with bamboo weapons within certain certain clearly defined rules". This is what we all know as Kendo. The fact that another language and culture calls it Kumdo and has a simultaneously developed history of the use of the sword, does not change my thesis.

My understanding is that modern Kendo and Kumdo are for all intents and practical purposes the same, but that, as mentioned, there is also a historical Korean sword art.

Ah, ok. I thought your Subject referred partly to my post. My mistake. =)

Nicholas

The current (Apr. 2003) issue of Black Belt has an article on Haedong Kumdo (a.k.a Haidong Gumdo) which the article describes as traditional Korean sword work ("Haidong" being an old Chinese term for Korea, "eastern sea" it says). It also states that most Kumdo practiced in Korea these days is very much Japanese Kendo with a Koreanized name.

"Kum Sul (now know as KumDo) systems were taught only to those whose moral character was unquestionable. This noble art was also taught to the Royal Court for their personal self-defense.
Until 1886, Kum Sul remained an art of the noble class. Dae Woon Kahm, the last King of Korea, proclaimed that all government officials and leaders were taught the art of Kum Sul. In 1910, the Japanese occupation of Korea began and Kum Sul began it's metamorphosis to Kum Do."

excerpt taken from "Korean Sword Master Form Do Sa" by GM Sungwoo Kahm (A.K.A Master Kum Sung)

Master Kum Sung Martial Arts.... World Kum Do / Tae Kwon Do


I have the great pleasure of being a student of his... I'm just now learning this art. Unfortunately I'm not familiar with the other "national" sword styles... But I hope this helps alittle.

Salute :asian:
Kevin

http://www.strangehorizons.com/2002/20021216/korean_fencing.shtml - a good article on the sport of how the two are a bit different if you study in Korea vs. Japan

An article in the current issue (July 2003) of Budo Intl. magazine discusses Master Han Sang Hyun and Haidong Gumdo.

The current (Nov. 2003) issue of Budo Intl. has a brief pictorial segment on Haidong Gumdo.

For what it's worth, last year I asked a Korean friend about Kumdo, since I live in Flushing, Queens, which has a large Korean population; there were a couple of Kumdo schools in my neighborhood.

His response was that Kumdo and Kendo were the same.

Of course, you can still go to Japan and study a classical weapons system. My best guess is that you could go to Korea and do the same.

Best,

Steve Lamade

Originally posted by lhommedieu
His response was that Kumdo and Kendo were the same.

This seems a somewhat controversial issue! My understanding is the same as above--they're essentially the same art, with Kumdo a version of Kendo.


Of course, you can still go to Japan and study a classical weapons system. My best guess is that you could go to Korea and do the same.

That makes sense. Some Kumdo systems may indeed be independent of Kendo.

Re. the above:

Company: Turtle Press
Tape Name: Haedong Kumdo: Traditional Korean Sword Art (KCA3)
Tape Cost: $19.95
Length of Tape/Time: 58 minutes
Number of Moves/Techniques: Information and Concepts
Return Policy: Defective Merchandise or By Authorization
Experiences in dealing with this company: Excellent
The Instructor: Sang H. Kim
Company's Address: 403 Silas Deane Hwy., Wethersfield, CT., 06109
Company's Phone Number: 1-800-778-8785
Web Page: http://www.turtlepress.com
E-Mail: sales@turtlepress.com

Best,

Steve

I'm studied kendo extensively in Japan, and in my effort to open up a kendo club in my university, found a Korean sensei who knew kumdo. I learned a bunch from him concerning the art, but I'll put in some differences here

1) Kumdo practitioners do not squat (sonkyo) prior to fighting
2) Kendo practitioners grasp the shinai with the top three fingers, leaving the bottom two loosely - in kumdo, it is the opposite
3) The target terms in kumdo are in korean
4) Flag colors are different

That's essentially it. If you look at the arts beyond these aesthetics, they are identical. I think the important thing to realize is that the lesson of the arts and their respective souls are the same.

2) Kendo practitioners grasp the shinai with the top three fingers, leaving the bottom two loosely - in kumdo, it is the opposite

Isn't this a big difference? It would affect the control of the shinai, right?

What's the reason for this difference?

Hello,

I am a student of Haidong GumDo, and we hold the sword firmly with our little, ring, and middle finger, while keeping the index and thumb loose, but not too loose. My training in Kendo, while not so formal, had the same type of grip when it comes to holding the sword.

Michael Tabone

Actually, I practice Kumdo, but use the term Kendo so people know what I'm talking about. And as mentioned by Eldritch Knight, I do hold the shanai with my bottom fingers on the left hand, not the top. We use japanese terminology though. As far as squatting, it depends on the style of the host. I have and haven't done it.

In HDGD, I hold it the same as mentioned by mtabone.

Isn't this a big difference? It would affect the control of the shinai, right?

What's the reason for this difference?

Actually, my understanding of the art has improved a bit since I made that post. Both methods are considered acceptable in kendo, though kumdo practitioners only use the bottom fingers. The reason? No clue, but the grip has been standardized by the kendo/kumdo federations of Japan and Korea.

Thanks for the info., Gemini and Eldritch Knight!

Here's a link for some interesting reading on this.

http://www.kendo-world.com/articles/web/korea/index.php

Sadly there has been a lot of anti this and that feeling for many years between Korea and Japan. Being in Japan I have gone to teach Kendo at a Korean University on a number of occasions. There really should not be any differences. It goes against the ideals of the sport/art. One instance was some years ago when a ZNKR delegation went to Korea to teach. The first day they taught basics (It's basics whatever country you teach). Second day no one came!

When the team come over here to train I am told, "While they are here teach them some propriety". This refrs to not doing sonkyo. To japanese its and element of mutual respect thats makes the difference between polite gentlmanly @practice and a barbaric action. Korean's on the other hand say, "We are not bowing down to Japanese". Then of course is the old story, As long as Japanese are the judges a Korean will never win the worlds".

I just wish they could all get on together more and stop screwing it up for other nationalities that don't know what the hells going on.