Mitose

[Seig]

I know as every one else here does that James Mitose was in prison. What I do not know is why. Would someone please enlighten me?

[Sigung86]

Wasn't there as some of the other seniors, but as I recall, there was extortion, and either murder or some status as an accomplice to murder. A truly outstanding human being.

Dan

[GouRonin]

One of his students commited murder. Mitose was connected with organizing the murder as a result of his actions. I'll look for a story as I have heard several version why but only one result.

[GouRonin]

This is as good as any article. It has it's own slant of course as it was written from his son's perspective but hey, what can ya do?

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1992/nov92/jmitose/jmitose.html

[tonbo]

There is also some good history and information on the Tracy website. A lot of lineage there, as well as a pretty fair recounting as to what happened.

From what I understand, Gou is right on......one of Mitose's students committed a murder or was otherwise responsible for someone's death, and Mitose, according to *this* version of the story, anyway, offered to take the fall or took the fall because he didn't fully understand the proceedings. Also kind of sounds like he was screwed over in court, but again, that is the slant of the article, not necessarily an objective point of view.

I also understand from reading things that SGM Parker said, that Mr. Mitose was also not always on the level in business dealings, but I don't think that he went to prison for anything along those lines......I think the reason the person the student killed died was over a fight about money.

Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly. This is one of those things where I shake my head and say, "Well, that's the fault of the person, not the style..."....hehe....

Peace--

[Kirk]

In addition to claims of him being not on the level, some have
also said he's a rapist. This is a seriously one sided article.
Go and ask all the kenpoists on Mr Parker's tree who was to
run things after his passing. There'll be a boat load of majorly
different stories, all worded so eloquently, and all filled with
"facts". Just because a deal was made, does NOT mean that
Mitose didn't order an ass whoopin' or murder of this guy.
He wasn't the only one that was required to pay back loans.
There's web pages out there claiming that the god Rah ordered
the Sept. 11th attacks ... does this make it true?!?!?

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Kirk

... does this make it true?!?!?

Maybe we can sit around and ask if it is true or not, but enough of his peers thought there was enough evidence to convict him of enough nefarious deeds that he served hard time for it.

Did that make him a non-viable representative of Kenpo? Absolutely! SGM Parker once talked about the skills of Kenpo... he indicated that there is a lot more than just the fighting side of it all. His words, and I'm paraphrasing, were to the effect that a large gorilla can kill. That is not where the skill is.

It takes the fighting skill, along with the ethical/moral capabilities of the individual to make a Kenpoist/martial artist, or a "good" human being for that matter.

You, as a Martial Artist, in my opinion, become a superior human being. You have to ability to fatally deal with most any "non-practicing" human being. You become more aware of what and who you are. You, therefore, owe it to humanity to be a little better than average. A lot more forgiving, a lot more ethical, a lot more willing to step in and right the wrongs you confront as you go through life, and a lot more willing to make life better for your fellow human beings.

If you want to go and just be a killer, go compete with the rogue gorillas. That requires brute strength, not special skills.

Just food for thought... You gotsta show better to be better.

Dan

[Goldendragon7]

but he had a long rap sheet prior the the California Murder Case. He was no stranger to trouble and fraud.

:asian:

[Dave Simmons]

Geez Dan,

I like gorilla's they are peaceful because they do not fear things they just want to be left alone!

Is the Kenpaloosa Dead? As far as I know I am the only one that followed through... No offense!!!

Peace,

Dave Simmons:D

[tshadowchaser]

First I have not ead the article or the trail manuscripts.
I have these thoughts on the subject :
1. The trail took place in so. calif. shortly after Manson had his people go on a rampage.
2. Anyone not middle class white being accused of extorsion and murder for hire and accused of leading a cult was in for a difficult time at trail
3. People not speaking English at trail in southern calif have adiffucult time explaining what they mean
4. the man who admitted doing the crime got off with a slap on the wrist because he claimed to be "under the influence"
5. Mitose in the old world fasion took blame for what his student did (this is what instructors did because they did feel responseible for the actions of their students)
As I said I have not rad the trail manuscript
Shadow:asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

First I have not ead the article or the trail manuscripts.
I have these thoughts on the subject :
1. The trail took place in so. calif. shortly after Manson had his people go on a rampage.
2. Anyone not middle class white being accused of extorsion and murder for hire and accused of leading a cult was in for a difficult time at trail

Response 1 and 2 ... Probably true, but I can't imagine that he would have been convicted without some substantial evidence, and a past history of being more the conman that he was made out to be.

3. People not speaking English at trail in southern calif have adiffucult time explaining what they mean

Response 3. Perhaps, but there were multilingual lawyers, and members of the jury had to be approved by both sides of the case.

4. the man who admitted doing the crime got off with a slap on the wrist because he claimed to be "under the influence"

Response 4. Also, probably true, and he in all likelihood should have had a bigger punishment, but we, in America tend to try to put our responsibility off on others, and we as the "jurists" tend to buy in on that.... If you don't believe me, then watch an episode of Springer or some of that other high-brow entertainment.

5. Mitose in the old world fasion took blame for what his student did (this is what instructors did because they did feel responseible for the actions of their students).

Response 5. Mitose took responsibility because he, in fact, masterminded the whole thing. I do believe, as I recall, that he was also involved personally in some of the strong arming that went on.

As I said I have not rad the trail manuscript
Shadow:asian:

Nor have I, but from what I have heard from people who were involved, Mitose was not nearly as innocent as others would have you believe. Being a Tracy Kenpoist, I have spoken to Al on the issue a couple of times. It really doesn't matter to me whether we trace our heritage back to Mitose or not. If he had not wished to be associated with bad guys, he should have not hung with bad guys, or acted in a manner that caused his behavior and actions to be called into question. That actually is pretty simple.

Dan

:asian:

[tonbo]

There is a huge ethical problem involved when you have a Pope that is guilty of bad deeds, and there have been a few in the past.

Suddenly, people had to wonder if papal blessings were any good anymore, and people wondered if services that the guilty Pope had done were invalid.

The answer? Papal Infallibility. The *person* was bad, and was guilty of sin, but the *church deeds* (i.e., the services, blessings, and so on, not any "evil" acts) were still considered to be valid and pure.

(Please, at this point, we don't need to go into discussions of the recent Catholic Church problems......that is not the purpose of my bringing this up)

I think we have something similar here. Mitose himself was, maybe, a less than stellar person, and may have been quite the shyster. However, the art that was passed down *through* him is *not* him, and can still be fine.

Go back far enough through *any* art, and I will bet you can find shady characters. But bad people are everywhere, and they can't truly tarnish the art.

You can't erase Mitose from the lineage, if you are tracing Kenpo history. However, his deeds don't damn the style for all time. They make *him* look pretty bad, but oh well. Those that took the art from there aren't in the same league. They are well beyond.

Peace--

[tonbo]

Here is a link to one of the last interviews that Mr. Parker gave, in which he discusses James Mitose. Get some information straight from him, as to what he thought:

http://www.mawn.net/feat3.htm

Peace--

[Sigung86]

Hi Tonbo!

I don't think anyone is questioning Kenpo as an art. I believe, and I am committing heresy according to some Tracy Karate folks, and probably Al Tracy, himself, that my particular problems with Mitose are as follows:

a. Why would we attempt to canonize a man who has a record the length and breadth of Mitose. He was, regardless of anything else, a conman, thief, rapist, and probable murderer or at least an accessory to most all of that. Parker states in the interview that his record went back to 1935. That was a pretty long one, especially for a man who wore a "collar" all the time, and attempted to foist himself on the public as a man of higher quality, caliber, and morality. That is totally independent of his art.

b. I am not really sure of his impact on Kenpo. Brouhaha about Parker learning from Mitose totally aside, who else did he teach that still carries on his system? Juchnick, et al. took Master Certificates that, according to what I have been able to find out, were more in the area of philosophical attainment and not in the various aspects of what his Kenpo was supposed to be. It is pretty much generally felt that he was not, while incarcerated, able to teach physical technique.

It is much like the point that was made that SL-4 is really a part of Mitose's stuff... Not in any technique pictorials that I have seen versus the manuals and videos that I have of Doctor Chapél's
SL-4. The movements of SL-4 are nothing like Tracy's Karate, and in many senses of the word, not the same as Ed Parker's American Kenpo. There is very little in his book, What is Self Defense? Kenpo ... that really appears to have much in the way of application in what is done now in Ed Parker American Kenpo. There are some similarities to Tracy's, but I'm not sure if that is after the fact, or not.

My point of this post is not to get a flaming match or anything like that going. I would like some honest answers and the chance to discuss and rebutt. I am not looking for moral or ethical defenses of the man and the truth of his life.

I am not Catholic, but I do find it somewhat repugnant to compare a man like that to a Pope. The Pope is a man (and perhaps at least one woman) who is followed in a Religious sense by millions of people, who place their faith in what s/he does based on Biblical sayings and concepts, and a belief in God, Jesus, and Mary. Mitose, on the other hand, was an evil, self-centered, crook with little thought of anyone else other than how they could further his own aims and goals. No ethics, no morals, no God... Just a crooked little man trying to walk a crooked little mile ... who happened to do a style of Karate that has origins shrouded in mystery and lack of substantiation.

Least ways, that's my take on it ....

I could be wrong as these are just opinions. Flame suit is on...

Take care,

Dan Farmer

[Dave Simmons]

No offense folks but this whole issue of Mitose is a vague gray area to all who do not know the truth. No, I do not know the "truth" but Mitose is part of Kenpo's history and that's the truth. It doesn't really matter what is said now about him.

If you like Kenpo in all its forms and practice what else is there? Except the pleasure of sharing the experience.

Regards,

Dave Simmons:D

[Goldendragon7]

Mitose has "no" "American Kenpo" History what so ever! The History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... unless/till they broke away and studied directly with Mitose or another system..... then they would be a blend of what ever "Katas" or "Hyung" or whatever (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story!

Period.

:asian:

[Seig]

I was not trying to imply an "American Kenpo" connection. I was just trying to follow up on Kenpo history in general.
"Those who do not know the past are doomed to repeat it." Santa Anna

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Dave Simmons

No offense folks but this whole issue of Mitose is a vague gray area to all who do not know the truth. No, I do not know the "truth" but Mitose is part of Kenpo's history and that's the truth. It doesn't really matter what is said now about him.

If you like Kenpo in all its forms and practice what else is there? Except the pleasure of sharing the experience.

Regards,

Dave Simmons:D


Hello Brother Dave,

That which you posted, is in essence, the point of my posting. We all sit around and conjecture this, that or the other. Al Tracy is supposed to have much material on this whole history of Kenpo, and it isn't posted or shared ... Yet we do nothing but sit around and conjecture (me included). Those are simply points that I bring up to ponder.

Even if the man were a war hero, etc. etc. Anything other than what I have perceived him to be (a rat, loser, evil little man, etc) there is no real prima fascia evidence of it. Here it is almost 50 years after the end of WWII and there is nothing prevalent in the way of evidence that he should have been anything other than my vague perceptions, and he certainly should have no real impact on Kenpo other than, perhaps, as a footnote.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast.

Dan

[tonbo]

Hey, no offense taken, none offered. Let me start out with that.

My intent in using the Pope as an example was only one of the idea of the "lineage" being clean, or the history being clean, even if some of the practitioners were not. I am also not Catholic, but I do respect the Pope as both a person and an office, and did not mean to imply in any way that he could in any way be compared with a crook or a criminal. Maybe it was the wrong example, but I was *trying*. Ah, well. But anyway, no offense meant to *anyone's* sensibilities.

I also agree with you on the points that Mitose was a *very* flawed individual, and should be seen as such.

AFAIK, Mitose has NO impact on American Kenpo, other than his name is brought in as part of the lineage. As GoldenDragon stated, however, American Kenpo started with Ed Parker. Ed Parker, even according to his own words, NEVER studied with Mitose. Saw him, yes. Met with him, yes. Trained under him, NO. Mr. Parker even states serious disagreements with Mitose's style of martial arts. In terms of American Kenpo, Mitose is little more than a side note.

When it comes to Juchnik and those claiming to have lineage from Mitose, my question is.....WHY? Why would you want to claim knowledge gained from someone in prison for murder, and whose past transgressions include rape? Don't those principles violate just about everything that MA is supposed to stand for? I think so.

Finally, I can only speculate on so much of this history, and so I won't. I have read quite a bit, from various sources, and tend to shrug it all off. Okay, Mitose was a bad guy. So were quite a few others along the path. However, like I said earlier......what I learn is clean, and will continue to be. It is not tainted by the people involved, but rather enhanced by those on the "good" side of it.

Once again, my apologies at any offences taken in my analogies. None was meant. I'll be obvious if I intend to slight, and it'll take a lot to get to that point, too. :eek:

:asian:

Peace--

[Chris from CT]

Just a little extra info...

Mitose's student in question's name was Terry Lee. He now goes by the name of Namr Hassan.

His website is at...
http://astro.temple.edu/~gavinc/

Take care.

[Roland]

People are always saying that Chow studied with Mitose, and a lot of others always ask, 'why'?
Mr. Parker stated several times that Mitose had nothing to teach him.

Soooooooo, i was wondering, maybe, if it is possible that Chow went with Mitose for rank, or certification. A lot has been said about Chow's abilities, how much of a fighter he was, maybe he felt he needed to be "more legit" to actually teach publicly.
it might explain a lot.

No disrespect to Chow here, it was just a thought!

[Chiduce]

From what i understand, mitose sent his student to collect a debt owed to him. The debtor was also an accomplished martial artist as well. The student found the man at his home and confronted him. An arguement started which escalated into a fight. The student then defeated the man and left the scene with the guy still alive and beaten. The man's wife comes home later to find her husband dead. The student got, i think 3 years for the death and mitose got life! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chiduce
From what i understand,The student then defeated the man and left the scene with the guy still alive and beaten. The man's wife comes home later to find her husband dead. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

He (Terry Lee) defeated him alright! LOL....... sounds more like a HIT to me.

All I know is that I want nothing to do with these type of people anytime, anywhere, anyhow!

:asian:

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

The History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story! Period.

So, you think that no one under Chow, i.e. William Chun, is doing any techniques similar to American Kenpo? Mr. Parker created every technique, set and form. Very interesting.

No William Chow, no Westernized Kenpo (Tracy, Parker, Castro, Chun, etc....

Sanxiawuyi
The Kenpo Exchange (http://www.freewebz.com/kenpoexchange/)

[Goldendragon7]

I said "That was developed under Ed Parker..... the History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story! Period."

Show me where Chow or Mitose did Short/Long Form 1-8.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did any of the Sets we do today.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did the curriculums that we have today...32-23- or 16.....

Well......

Now don't get silly on me..... sure we all know that there are some similarities "generic basics and movements" that are as old as time........ and are seen in various different systems of the martial arts from the Chinese, Japanese, to Korean. Of course there are similar actions........ but nothing like what Ed Parker Put together as a WHOLE CURRICULUM!!

:asian:

[Big Guy]

Here: Here: Go Goldendragon7 Go! It's not there fault they may not know Parker Kenpo. ;) Big Guy

[Kirk]

Taken from
http://www.kenpothoughts.com/display1.asp?func=display&resid=361&tree=2051



By 1982, Ed Parker had changed what he called American Kenpo, so much so as to make it in Parker’s own words, "no more than 10% Kenpo." It was around this time that the Tracy’s completely broke from Ed Parker.

Al Tracy’s Kenpo Karate remains to this day teaching "Original/Traditional" Kenpo as taught to him by Ed Parker.



Didn't you write this, Sanxiawuyi? I must be misunderstanding
your objection here, because it sounds like in this thread that
you're not crediting American Kenpo to Parker. Yet in the bio
that you wrote of Al Tracy (excerpt above) it sounds like you
are.

[Seig]

I think my head is going to explode.

[tonbo]

The way I see it, GD7 is right on. Doesn't it make sense that "Ed Parker's American Karate" would be.....uh.....Ed Parker's?

Okay, yes, SGM Parker was trained by Mr. Chow. That's in the record, no problem. And I am sure that some of that material was incorporated into EPAK. However, SGM Parker took what he knew, refined it, re-examined it, and did a lot of mixing and fixing. What came out over time was his own stuff, new enough to be different, while old enough to pay tribute to what came before. No, SGM Parker didn't invent new movements, but he did string some things together in new ways.

I think there are PLENTY of people doing movements and forms *similar* to Mr. Parker's Kenpo, and maybe even calling what they are doing "Kenpo". However, that is not EPAK.

Clear as mud, huh?

....and I *still* don't know what I don't know.....

Peace--

[Sanxiawuyi]

Wow! Do you guys attack like this in practice?!

Goldendragon7 stated
The History starts with Ed Parker

All I was saying was that is not quite true. Maybe “American” Kenpo history starts with Mr. Parker, but NOT the history of Westernized Kenpo.

If Mr. Parker had not met or studied under William Chow, there would be no EPAK, as you know it today. Period

I wonder what Mr. Parker himself would say?! As I know and have heard he gave a lot of credit to his teacher, Mr. Chow, as well as the teachers of San Francisco's China Town, i.e. James Woo, who helped develop the sets and actually created many of the forms that Goldendragon7 spoke of.

The history goes way beyond Mr. Parker, to think it doesn’t....

Yes [/B]Kirk[/B], I am crediting “American Kenpo” to Parker, as seen in the above threads, and in the bio you mentioned. But thanks for taking an interest in my stuff.

Do you guys hate everyone that is a little different or doesn’t think the same as you?

Sanxiawuyi

[Michael Billings]

... endless debates can continue regarding the Chow - Mitose relationship, however Mr. Parker's Kenpo was truely his. I did the old Tracy material for my 1st Black, but we had the numbered forms. Then switched over to Mr. Parker's Kenpo.

You can truely see the evolution of the techniques, where they started, and where they evolved to. Whether the old techniques or the new, the system structure was designed by Mr. Parker. To know his logic and the way he thought, which is actually what he tried to teach in seminars, not material, cannot attributed to anyone else (as Dennis would say, period.)

The Tracy's and other 1960's splinter Kenpo groups went their way, and Ed Parker continued on his journey, evolving into the most logical, comprehensive, systems of empty handed combat designed. Between the Seniors still alive, and the written articles and histories, I am not sure what there is left to "ferrit" out? The Journey was a nice way to answer some of the questions, but we need more, in writing, remembering that whoever are left are the ones writing history, not necessarily those who are making history.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael B.
UKS-Texas

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
If Mr. Parker had not met or studied under William Chow, there would be no EPAK, as you know it today. Period
Do you guys hate everyone that is a little different or doesn’t think the same as you?

I think Chow gave Parker his basics. I agree that without Chow the art known as Ed Parker's Kenpo would not be here today. Having said that, what Ed Parker learned from Chow and what EPAK is today ARE NOTHING alike except the basics.

This being said Ed Parker could have learned his basics from anyone and created EPAK. (My opinion) He was just that kind of person from the people I have spoken with. He would have come out with it. Chow was the man who planted the seed but he had no idea what kind of tree would grow. I think the credit given to Chow is adequate. Let's not go overboard though. Parker became more than Chow ever could have dreamed. We're all only the sum of our experiences. That means that everyone we come in contact has some part in making us who we are and that is always changing. While it does mean that we would never become who we are without that contact it doesn't mean that the WHOLE sum of we are would never materialize without that contact.

I don't think these guys hate you. We've spoken on this issue before. You have this habit of stating things that you believe to be true but might be more on the side of might be true. The problem is that when you state these things as truths people will always disagree. It's probably better to put forth that in your studies, these are the things you think might have happened and this is the stance you take. Historians are supposed to be neutral.

You do a lot of research and you should be congratulated on it. However I would hasten to say that Parker Kenpo history might not be as easy to unfold as the rest of Asian Kenpo for a variety of reasons. Please be careful as the course you chart here will affect your credibility there DESPITE the hard work and effort you have made. I think it would be a shame to have that happen.

Again I think you do a lot of hard work and I KNOW what you are trying to say, it just doesn't always come out right. Perhaps however you need to hire me as your interpretor. Heh... I work on the cheap.

[Michael Billings]

Bravo, well said, and nuff said.
-Michael B.

[Michael Billings]

Obviously, since you are in Canada, you cannot be in a "state." I meant "Well stated!!!"
-MB

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by GouRonin

I don't think these guys hate you. We've spoken on this issue before. You have this habit of stating things that you believe to be true but might be more on the side of might be true. The problem is that when you state these things as truths people will always disagree. It's probably better to put forth that in your studies, these are the things you think might have happened and this is the stance you take. Historians are supposed to be neutral.


Thank you again for your compliments Gou, sincerely. (P.S. Go Leafs!!)

I am sorry for the way it comes of, but I was responding to post above which had statements printed as “truths”. I just wanted to show the other side of the coin.

I agree with you, people should just post “their” beliefs of what “may” be true. But I do think it’s ironic that I get attacked for showing another side, when there are people printing things as gospel truths, which are obviously just opinions. I guess some peoples opinions carry more reputability then others, .... depending which side of the fence you are on.

Sanxiawuyi




“Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds” – Albert Einstein

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
Wow! Do you guys attack like this in practice?! (1)

Goldendragon7 stated

All I was saying was that is not quite true. Maybe “American” Kenpo history starts with Mr. Parker, but NOT the history of Westernized Kenpo. (2)

If Mr. Parker had not met or studied under William Chow, there would be no EPAK, as you know it today. Period (3)

I wonder what Mr. Parker himself would say?! As I know and have heard he gave a lot of credit to his teacher, Mr. Chow, as well as the teachers of San Francisco's China Town, i.e. James Woo, who helped develop the sets and actually created many of the forms that Goldendragon7 spoke of.

The history goes way beyond Mr. Parker, to think it doesn’t....

Yes Kirk[/B], I am crediting “American Kenpo” to Parker, as seen in the above threads, and in the bio you mentioned. But thanks for taking an interest in my stuff.

Do you guys hate everyone that is a little different or doesn’t think the same as you?

Sanxiawuyi [/B]

1st Point.....
Who said "WE" are attacking......... WE are responding to statements and differences with you! If you call that an attack.. man you and I should work out......... You will feel the intensity!

2nd Point.........
Westernized Kenpo is your term "NOT OURS" ! I have no Idea what your definition of WK is nor do I care. Only that I am concerned with MY ART which STARTS with ED PARKER.... I do take offense to your blending of others and not credit where credit is due.

You are free to explore or comment on other BRANDS of what you call Kenpo as long as it has nothing to do with ED PARKER. If work that he did is somehow mixed up in your misunderstandings then I will speak out. What other students of Chow or anybody else does is fine with me. Just don't take things that Ed Parker did and claim that others have it as well. THAT'S ALL - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

3rd Point........
You are correct...... If Mr. Parker had not met or studied under William Chow, there would be no EPAK, as you know it today. I totally agree......... so what's your point. This was not the focus of difference............ "PERIOD"

4th Point.....
Yes, Mr. Parker always gave his teacher credit for what he did, which was ....... "give him the keys" DUH (Old News Here) and I agree again that Ed Parker had input from others (not only who you listed but many others such as Tom Kelly, Huk Planas, Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Myself and a host of others) SO WHAT! THIS IS STILL AFTER ED PARKER. No matter who did what...... Ed Parker was always the 1st, & Last to either insert or discard anything into "HIS SYSTEM" not Chows or anyone else's. PERIOD

5th Point.....
The History Prior to Ed Parker is sketchy to say the least and the most incomplete. After Ed Parker it is recorded and clear. What went on Prior other than generic basics is insignificant.

Final Point.....
I resent your attitude as to "HATE"! No one here has ever said we hated you or anything else along those lines just differences of opinion........ so take your "HATE" verbiage and pedal it somewhere else .......... we don't want to hear it.!~!!

The Truth no matter who it hurts is still the Truth.........


:asian:

[GouRonin]

Far be it from me to be the voice of reason but perhaps we should just sorta take a minute and go for a walk before we post here folks.

I know, I know. It WAS just me who said. I love the chaos as much as the next guy, if not more. But really you're both quite close to what each other is saying.

Saxawhatchamadooie is saying that Ed Parker had lots of influences in creating his art. Guys like Woo, Chow, Planas, Kelly and more. That without these guys where would the art be today? Goldenpoop is stating that he agrees but that the art of AMERICAN Kenpo is in the end the creation of Ed Parker. Like a CEO of a large corperation uses the people working for him to give him the info he needs to steer the corporation, Parker used the people around him to create his art.

So, you're both right. Parker was the catalyst that brought it all together for American Kenpo and as such can and should claim that his art was his creation. He did however have influences and that means that without those influences American Kenpo would not be what it is today.

This reminds me of the story of the 2 blind men touching the elephant in the dark. One says it's a tree as he feels the leg and the other thinks it's a length of hose as he touches the trunk. Only to discover when they look at the whole it's an elephant.

Now Sachawhackybooboo, no one is attacking you per say, just what you said. People often tread on reputations and as such some people often have their opinions taken with more credibility. It doesn't mean they are right any more than you are wrong until proven. You should talk with Goldeneye and get all sorts of info from him. It'd be a great way to fill in any blanks. Just remember though that the info you get is what he saw and knew. Be objective.

Goldenlizard, slow down there geronimo! The guy isn't attacking Parker's work. He saying that he had a lot of influence in making it. In fact he's also crediting Parker with being the lynchpin of Westernized Kenpo. The guy who made it all happen. But with him being attacked by everyone for the misunderstanding would kinda make anyone feel uncomfortable. Hate is probably the wrong word to use and I think you know that. Why not give him the info he seeks to help him build his own world view? Accept the fact that others may not agree with you but you have an important part to play in the Parker legacy. (Plus when you list three issues and respond with six it tells me you still can't count)

Now, if we can't all do that I'll just turn this message board around and we'll all go home, and no we can't stop so you can go to the bathroom. Besides, You should have gone before we left.

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7



1st Point.....Who said "WE" are attacking......... WE are responding to statements and differences with you!

I responded with my opinion, and suddenly, because I didn’t agree, I was criticized.



2nd Point.........
Westernized Kenpo is your term "NOT OURS" ! I have no Idea what your definition of WK is nor do I care.

Westernized Kenpo is not my term; it just means Western martial arts (i.e. American, Canadian, British, etc.) with Chinese influence. Very simple really, unless you think American Kenpo is the same as form of Okinawan Kenpo like Uechi-ryu?


3rd Point........
You are correct...... If Mr. Parker had not met or studied under William Chow, there would be no EPAK, as you know it today. I totally agree......... so what's your point. This was not the focus of difference............ "PERIOD"

I was just trying to say that “American Kenpo” started with Mr. Parker, with a lot of help. It would be like saying the history of karate started with Funakoshi! That would ridicules. Shotokan may have begun with Funakoshi, but not the history of karate. American kenpo may have begun with Mr. Parker, but the history of Kenpo. A student in Americanized Kenpo has roots that go beyond Mr. Parker, and there is nothing wrong with someone exploring their genealogy, is there?


4th Point.....
No matter who did what...... Ed Parker was always the 1st, & Last to either insert or discard anything into "HIS SYSTEM" not Chows or anyone else's. PERIOD

I don’t see your point?


5th Point.....
The History Prior to Ed Parker is sketchy to say the least and the most incomplete. After Ed Parker it is recorded and clear. What went on Prior other than generic basics is insignificant.

If you think the history before Ed Parker is “insignificant”, I don’t know what else to say. You honestly believe that Mr. Parker could have created American Kenpo without the input of Chow, Woo, Planas, etc.? If he had, it would look a lot deferent today.

And, if Parker American Kenpo is deferent and a complete creation of Mr. Parker, then why does it so many similarities to systems like:

Sam Kuoha’s Kara-ho, learnt from William Chow, or William Chun’s Go Shin Jitsu Kai Chinese Kempo System ?

You can obviously see the relationship.


Final Point.....
I resent your attitude as to "HATE"! No one here has ever said we hated you or anything else along those lines just differences of opinion........ so take your "HATE" verbiage and pedal it somewhere else .......... we don't want to hear it.!~!!

Sorry for using the word hate, it was too strong. What I meant was why is it if someone doesn’t agree with your beliefs they are automatically wrong and should be put in their place?

As Rodney King said, “Can’t we all just get along”? :rofl:

Let me finish by saying that have the utmost respect for Mr. Parker and I believe he was a martial genius, an innovator, I have never said anything negative about him, never.

Sanxiawuyi

[tonbo]

One big distinction I think that needs to be made is that we are talking about EPAK here.

As I have stated both in the forum and in private conversations with GD7, I study Kenpo; a version of Kenpo from someone who learned under SGM Parker. However, it has been altered somewhat, and as such is still Kenpo, but not EPAK. It has a LOT of similarities, since EPAK was its root, but it is somewhat "stopped" in the progression of EPAK. That continued on in one line, and our school's progression went on another line.

This seems to be quite common in karate--styles develop along similar lines, quite often.....often because people see what each other are doing and like it, so they "borrow" or do similar concepts. Asking why Kara-ho or other schools are "like" EPAK is somewhat like asking why you can find similar moves and philosophies in JKD and Wing Chun. Similar roots, similar techniques. But where they go from their "base" is what makes them different.

SGM Parker had no patent on moves, forms, etc. when he started out, and I don' t know that he does to this day (or his estate, anyway). Point is, roots may be similar, moves similar, forms similar, etc. But EPAK is EPAK, and is Ed Parker's......Kara-ho, etc. are not.

I've gone and opened my mouth where I don't know as much as many others here on the board. For what it's worth, I don't hate anyone voicing their opinion, and everyone is free to disagree and correct me where I am wrong.

In the meantime, I will side with Gou and say, "Okay, chill." I don't think there are personal attacks on this issue yet, and all this should be taken with a grain of salt. People's interpretations are different, and hey, guess what? All the interpretations are going to be right for those who proclaim them. Yeah, folks....it's an ELEPHANT, not a tree, not a hose.

Dang. Rambled again.

Peace (really!! :asian: )--

[Kirk]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi

Let me finish by saying that have the utmost respect for Mr. Parker and I believe he was a martial genius, an innovator, I have never said anything negative about him, never.
Sanxiawuyi

I guess the problem I'm having is that you seem to come across
(to me anyway) that Mitose should be in such a high high
reverance for the creation of EPAK. And it's not just you, it seems
(to me again) that a lot of Tracy Kenpoists want to give the true
credit to Mitose, and Mr Parker is just a blip on the lineage line!

Chow's influence was NOT solely Mitose, and Mr Parker's
influence was NOT solely Chow. If what Mr Parker provided
was only 10% Kenpo upon it's completion, then why credit Mitose
and Chow more than 10%?

[Goldendragon7]

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

[tonbo]

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

:rofl:

But then again, you aren't *biased* or anything, are ya? LOL....

:asian:

Peace--

[RCastillo]

Now, if we can't all do that I'll just turn this message board around and we'll all go home, and no we can't stop so you can go to the bathroom. Besides, You should have gone before we left.

Did you fall of the wagon again? Too many different names. Like, I never heard of GoldenPoop, who's that?:eek:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I'd be happy to compare The Ed Parker System to that of anyone else's ~ Point for point!

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

Quit ticking off the Dragon, there's smoke everywhere, and I can't see!:eek:

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Kirk

I guess the problem I'm having is that you seem to come across (to me anyway) that Mitose should be in such a high high
reverance for the creation of EPAK. And it's not just you, it seems
(to me again) that a lot of Tracy Kenpoists want to give the true
credit to Mitose, and Mr Parker is just a blip on the lineage line!

Chow's influence was NOT solely Mitose, and Mr Parker's
influence was NOT solely Chow. If what Mr Parker provided
was only 10% Kenpo upon it's completion, then why credit Mitose
and Chow more than 10%?

Hey Kirk,

I am not sure how you get that, because from what I have found out I think Mitose wasn't much more then a con artist, but I am also fairly sure he was a competent martial artist, or else people like Chow would not have studied with him. But I am not a Mitose fan.

That being said, I believe the biggest influence comes from William Chow. It is unknown what William K. S. Chow's martial arts background was prior to his involvement with James Mitose, that in it's self has been an ongoing debate for some time, although many times throughout his life William Chow claimed that Mitose was his only "Teacher", Chow observed and exchanged information with several different instructors, one very notable teacher was professor Henry Seishiro Okazaki in Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, among many others.

As for Mr. Parker, I have never said that Chow was his only influence/teacher, as he had many from the Chinese community.

Sanxiawuyi

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Besides..... you never answered my questions on 5-20 that I asked. Kind of a "side step" if you ask me.

:asian:

:argue:
Huh?
:jediduel:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I said "That was developed under Ed Parker..... the History starts with Ed Parker. This goes for anyone who was ranked under Ed Parker....... (we in American Kenpo do Forms and Sets that Ed Parker created not Mitose or Chow) end of story! Period."

Show me where Chow or Mitose did Short/Long Form 1-8.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did any of the Sets we do today.....

Show me where they (Chow/Mitose) did the curriculums that we have today...32-23- or 16.....

Well......

Now don't get silly on me..... sure we all know that there are some similarities "generic basics and movements" that are as old as time........ and are seen in various different systems of the martial arts from the Chinese, Japanese, to Korean. Of course there are similar actions........ but nothing like what Ed Parker Put together as a WHOLE CURRICULUM!!

:asian:

Scott,
This is what I asked you back on section (2).....That you didn't answer....... Check Back re-read the thread......

stay on target.........

:asian:

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Scott, This is what I asked you back on section (2).....That you didn't answer....... Check Back re-read the thread......

stay on target.........

:asian:


Dennis,

I didn’t recognize that American Kenpo was only built upon its sets and forms, oh well, but since you are an authority, I’ll take your word on it.

But you since you ask the question, the answer is no. Of course other forms of Kenpo under Chow don’t have the sets/forms of EPAK. Why would they?

That is why Sam Kuoha developed his own sets, big deal! What does that establish? I know a variety of forms of traditional Chinese Wugong, and I could develop some different sets and forms right now based on the techniques of them, does that make it a new system or structure where the history starts with me?!

As for the techniques, yes.
There are techniques that are found in the other systems, maybe different names, but same technique, i.e. Crossing Talon, found in Kara ho, Kosho-ryu, Castro’s Shaolin Kenpo, etc…..

So to answer your question, No.
No one else uses the sets and forms developed by Mr. Parker, James Woo and Ibrao.

Yes, the same techniques are found. No, they don’t use Mr. Parker’s terminology.

I guess I find it sort of sad that a student is told not to look past Mr. Parker for the lineage. Somehow, I don’t think Mr. Parker would say that, but I didn’t know him, you did. I’ll just keep Mr. Parker in my mind as the martial genius I know he was.

To me it would be the same as a student of Shotokan told not to bother looking past Funakoshi, as the history starts with him.

Or a student of Chito-ryu told not to look past Dr. Chitose, as the history starts with him.

I am sorry Mr. Conatser, I believe that Mr. Parker developed American Kenpo, but the genealogy and history goes way beyond him.

Scott
:jediduel:

[Goldendragon7]

I agree that he did have people that came before him just as he now has those who come after him.

I guess I look at it like Being A Bill Gates. Sure computers were around before him but....... it was he and his group that put together an operating system that 90 % of the world uses. To me most of the credit goes to Bill Gates for collecting and innovating with what was already there.

It was a nice joust........ we don't agree, and that is ok. You certainly are entitled to your views.

I just resist having Mitose - a convicted criminal, constantly crammed down my throat as being in my lineage when his reputation is questionable at best, and there is "NO proof" as to his validity and lineage, even people that were present in Pasadena and watched his so called techniques, laughed at his prowess.

I choose to run with the truth as I and many, many others know it to be from 1st hand discussions and interactions thru the years.

but....... I could be wrong......


Peace to you........

:asian:

[Seig]

I just want you old guys to remember one thing.
People such as Gou and I (we're about the same age) will be writing the next set of history books. We'll be drawing from you old timers. Make sure we get the correct information. We will, if we have not already, draw our own conclussions. The things I have learned on this board have made me question my own instructors, with no satisfactory answers. Let's not pass that on to the next generation.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I will do my best (as always) to pass on the most accurate information....... I am still a student of Kenpo and intend to pass on what I have experienced but at the same time I still and have much more to learn.....

:asian:

[Sanxiawuyi]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

It was a nice joust........ we don't agree, and that is ok. You certainly are entitled to your views.

I just resist having Mitose - a convicted criminal, constantly crammed down my throat as being in my lineage when his reputation is questionable at best, and there is "NO proof" as to his validity and lineage, even people that were present in Pasadena and watched his so called techniques, laughed at his prowess.

I choose to run with the truth as I and many, many others know it to be from 1st hand discussions and interactions thru the years.

but....... I could be wrong...... Peace to you........

Yeah that was a fun wrangle, :D, but I do agree with you on the Mitose issue with lineage, reputation, etc., you won’t find much argument from me there. I do wish more respect was paid to William Chow though. I feel he was much more responsible for the Kenpo to have come out of Hawaii then Mitose or anyone else of that period. I just feel he should be honoured in our “Americanized” systems of Kenpo.

As for yourself Mr. Conatser, this may have been a disagreement over history, but I do hold you in the highest regard and it has been an honour jousting with you. Maybe someday I can meet you in person. Peace be with you.

Scott
:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Now we are getting somewhere........ I also agree that Chow was much more of an influence than Mitose..!!!! (As you know, Mitose could be "stricken from the record" and I would not care!)

In talking with several but mostly Ed Parker himself. He always did remember Chow in his beginnings. In fact he even wanted Chow to be his partner and brought him to the states early on to develop the Art. However, Chow became homesick and wanted to return to the islands which is when he gave his blessing to Ed Parker and the rest is history.

Up to that point I think we do agree....... after that point.... Ed Parker then continued to develop and evolve a unique system that I as of yet have not seen duplicated....... (If wrong I want to know what it is) I have looked at Kajukenbo and Lima Lama and others but still don't see the Logic and organization that I see in AK........ not arguing just I have not seen it yet..... if its there I would like to examine it.

Thank you for the energetic discussion and a mature close....
Much Respect as well.....
:asian:

[tonbo]

To back up a little bit of what GD7 said....

Last night I was re-reading (yet again, GD!!) "Infinite Insights Vol. 1", where SGM Parker goes through the history of American Kenpo. He's pretty clear about the fact that Kenpo was, in his opinion, Americanized by Mr. Chow. Mitose is little more than a quick historical mention, along with a footnote that says, essentially, that he [SGM Parker] never trained with Mitose, and was unimpressed with his technique and movement.

Mr. Chow, on the other hand, is described as a mentor and as a partner, who gave SGM Parker the impetus and blessing to take Kenpo to the mainland and really bring it to life, which he did.

From that point, I think the rest is history. Mr. Parker took what he knew, built it up, nurtured it, and grew it into what it has become. A couple of Mr. Chow's other students went off on their own as well, and created their own styles (ex. Kajukenbo), so some styles may have similarities. However, AK was, and always has been, Mr. Parker's baby.

Just the way I read it, anyway.....but from Mr. Parker's words....

Peace--

[Goldendragon7]

Castro has been mentioned........ Well, just for the record.... He was a Black Belt of Ed Parker's before studying with Chow later in life and Creating Shaolin Kenpo!

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
IMPORTANT NOTE:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Also there was mention of Ed Parker saying that "all that is left is "10 % Kenpo" and that is why Tracy's left"........

Well just to set the record straight......
yes, Ed Parker said that... but not that he changed Kenpo for the worst (as Al Tracy apparently thinks & wanted to stay with more early original Ed Parker material)

but rather......

filed/abandoned the "junk" (Pinon forms and outdated/unrealistic self defense maneuvers) in favor of new and "logical" updated organized material that he was now using (thus the start of his evolution to the useful, practical, and realistic curriculums of drills we now have.

:asian:

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
I am not sure how you get that, because from what I have found out I think Mitose wasn't much more then a con artist, but I am also fairly sure he was a competent martial artist, or else people like Chow would not have studied with him. But I am not a Mitose fan.

I out and out asked Huk Planas about Mitose because he was on the mat with him when Mr. Parker was present. Huk said that the old man and himself as well as anyone else present at the time was not impressed with him at all. Kinda like an old jalopy car trying to keep up with a porshe.


Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi
That being said, I believe the biggest influence comes from William Chow. It is unknown what William K. S. Chow's martial arts background was prior to his involvement with James Mitose, that in it's self has been an ongoing debate for some time, although many times throughout his life William Chow claimed that Mitose was his only "Teacher", Chow observed and exchanged information with several different instructors, one very notable teacher was professor Henry Seishiro Okazaki in Danzan-ryu Jujutsu, among many others.

I've done some research myself on guys like Okazaki, Wally Jay, Parker, Chow, Mitose, Bobo Olsen. They all knew each other. The time was ripe for wild things to happen and they did. However thing get distorted with time. You have to be careful. Recently I spent a good deal of time tracing Ed Parker's Judo background. It's hard to find out what really happened from those who think they know, and those who were there.

As a side note, Chow often claimed that some of his martial arts techniques came to him in dreams and not taught to him per say. So, who really knows?

[tonbo]

I'm gonna have to paraphrase this quite a bit, since I am away from the book at the moment, but......

Mr. Parker says in the Infinite Insights history of Kenpo that Mitose did some material for him and a bunch of his students, including Huk Planas, Tom Kelly, Mike Pick, and a couple of others. He said that he was totally unimpressed by Mitose, as Mitose was using applications that left him wide open, as well as using techniques and forms that were almost totally linear. Mr. Parker further says that he could see almost nothing of the circular techniques that he understood Mitose should have known or learned. In short, Mr. Parker didn't feel that Mitose was all that, plain and simple.

Again, I think the relevant point is that, however Mitose is involved in the lineage, the impetus for what American Kenpo has become started rolling with Mr. Chow giving his blessing to SGM Parker. Mr. Parker took that, and his own knowledge, and made EPAK. As Mr. Parker was never directly involved with Mitose, then he is only a minor player. (And a poor role model, at that!!)

Peace--

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Seig
I just want you old guys to remember one thing.
People such as Gou and I (we're about the same age) will be writing the next set of history books. We'll be drawing from you old timers. Make sure we get the correct information. We will, if we have not already, draw our own conclussions.

Me..teaching...jeez...now there's a mental picture...
:rolleyes:

[Seig]

Originally posted by GouRonin



Me..teaching...jeez...now there's a mental picture...
:rolleyes:
Well, heck, I had to scare the old guys so they would take me seriously:D

[Goldendragon7]

I've been telling you guys........

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

OK Dennis, how can you post to every thread, every response so fast? Do you have to replace keyboards, or do you have multiple computers networked to your DSL or Cable modem?

Whew, I can't keep up.
-Michael

[Goldendragon7]

man .......... you snooze you follow me..... lol

Super Fingers Conatser....... they call me.......::rofl:

:wavey

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Michael Billings

OK Dennis, how can you post to every thread, every response so fast? Do you have to replace keyboards, or do you have multiple computers networked to your DSL or Cable modem?

Whew, I can't keep up.
-Michael

He scours everything we all put up, plus, he has "Inside" help on this forum. :soapbox:

[Seig]

I guess it just proves another use for practicing the Finger Set

[tonbo]

I guess it just proves another use for practicing the Finger Set

ROFL!!!

:rofl:

Peace--

[Goldendragon7]

Finger Set # 2 Plus Paul Mills speed typing II...:rofl:

[Seig]

Thank Goodness, i was beginning to think it was the Shinanju Finger Board:rofl:

[Kirk]

New Addition To The Tracy's Site:

http://www.tracyskarate.com/mitose-trans/trial_transcrip_.htm

[Goldendragon7]

Makes you want to have him in your lineage .......... doesn't it..
(glad he's not in mine!)
:rofl:

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

... I do not have to have him as part of my old NCKKA lineage, since I have been doing EPAK for so many years?

If you don't have to, then I don't either!!!!!

Yea!!
-Michael
UKS-Texas

[GouRonin]

Originally posted by Kirk
New Addition To The Tracy's Site:
http://www.tracyskarate.com/mitose-trans/trial_transcrip_.htm

Ok, WTF is this? Seriously. First of all. Does Al Tracy not have a spell or grammar check? It's one thing to post things to a discussion board but come on, on your webpage? That is what people think of you when they see it. I count numerous grammatical errors. It just looks bad.

If you look beyond that though what the heck is he doing? This whole issue of Mitose and Chow is getting wilder and wilder by the claim and people who were not there have no other option to listen to really anything.

It's just getting out of control.
:soapbox:

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Michael Billings
... I do not have to have him as part of my old NCKKA lineage, since I have been doing EPAK for so many years?
If you don't have to, then I don't either!!!!!
Yea!!
-Michael
UKS-Texas

I never did, since talking with Mr. Parker several times on the issue. I corrected my lineage immediately!

:asian:

[Sigung86]

How does one correct his/her image Dennis? Mitose is either a part of your lineage or not. Regardless of what Al may or may not be trying to do (who knows)... If he is not a part of your lineage, then it follows that he is not part of my lineage ...

I hope !!! <gulp> ...

Dan

[Michael Billings]

Thanks, always been a bit blurry to me. Got it now.

-MB

[Goldendragon7]

like I always have said (Life began with Ed Parker!)....... prior to studying with Mr. Parker Mitose was taught to be part of our lineage. After I talked to Mr. Parker, I immediately dropped him, since the man (SGM Parker) told me his take. He studied with Chow....... Chow learned from his father and "worked out" with many in the islands. He was a known fighter and feared person (Chow), Mitose was a known con and eventually murderer that has a long record)! All documented. So this new stuff coming out doesn't surprise me at all. Lol

So, Chow taught Parker and promoted him to Black and gave him what he had. Mr. Parker wanted to bring him over here and help him with a chain of studios at which time, (Chow) told (Parker) to go ahead and do what you want you have my blessings. Parker did just that.
Of course he worked out with several in China Town and anywhere else (LA Japanese Styles - to Jhoon Rhee's guys like Allen Steen in Texas to Robert A. Trias in Phoenix) he could so he could analyze or compare knowledge to that of what he had..... fortunately he "ran into" several different individuals (Al Tracy, James Wing Woo, Ark Wong, Bruce Lee, Trias, Tom Connor, LaBounty, Kelly, Planas, Sullivan, Ibroa, Gow, and many, many others) that played different yet "important parts" in our history.

As students started to break off and do their "own thing" you must remember that all of them .......... I mean ALL OF THEM were Black Belts and skilled in Ed Parker's teachings regardless of what he called his art at that time! So, having said that..... Tracy broke away and started his thing but "clearly" he used material (even if he changed some of the names) that Ed Parker had provided the root idea and foundation for.

Ed Parker (yes, with the help of students and friends and his own BRAIN that used logic to pull together a strong curriculum for what he was taught by Chow, came up with the numbered Forms and sets, basics, several different drills, and any other material that is/or should be credited to him and his system alone (the 32, 24, & 16 tech. curriculums, Web of knowledge, 8 considerations, Universal Pattern, all the forms and sets, the analytical study of motion, the 3 points of view, three divisions of the art, Master Keys, specific terminology, the largest and longest running tournaments in the US. etc., etc., etc..

Mitose nor Chow neither used any of this material, (sure some similarities) are obviously generic for every system. But all the other people that broke away from Ed Parker that use any of this material came under his supervision at one time thus making the Art as we teach it today ..........Start with ED PARKER ("NOT" Mitose), and very little by Chow.

Many of the so called "differences" between any of these "Break Aways" were more than likely due to the lack of NEW knowledge, so the only thing that they had is what they left with! They kept close watch on and even changed some things to make it "appear" as if it were their creation ...... but ED PARKER kept improving and adding elements to his LIVE and evolving SYSTEM! So when these break aways "don't know of" or have "never seen" or can't explain in great detail, any of this what they call "new Material" the reason is that there was no pipeline of updates to those who left and simply........ THEY DON'T KNOW ANY OF IT!!!!!!!! With the current technology of today however, many are realizing that they are missing components to their Art.

Even though many have done "very well" and survived on just the Physical and Toughness end of the Art (which is admirable and a trait of many of the early Seniors) due to the lack of information at that time. Most can't explain the architecture of the System since they never learned any of it as well as the newer generations of Ed Parkers Black Belts such as Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Brian Hawkins, myself and a very few others.

There you have it. (once again) heee hee:rofl:

:asian:

[Chiduce]

Tracy claims the Mitose Lineage Of Yoshida himself. So, there has to be another reason for posting the documents. Probably shedding some truth to the question of whether Mitose was a spy or not. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Chiduce
Tracy claims the Mitose Lineage Of Yoshida himself. So, there has to be another reason for posting the documents. Probably shedding some truth to the question of whether Mitose was a spy or not. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


Right, but....... Spy or not, "con and criminal" he was, and no documented truth as to being a part of our lineage.

:asian:

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

like I always have said (Life began with Ed Parker!)....... prior to studying with Mr. Parker Mitose was taught to be part of our lineage. After I talked to Mr. Parker, I immediately dropped him, since the man (SGM Parker) told me his take. He studied with Chow....... Chow learned from his father and "worked out" with many in the islands. He was a known fighter and feared person (Chow), Mitose was a known con and eventually murderer that has a long record)! All documented. So this new stuff coming out doesn't surprise me at all. Lol

So, Chow taught Parker and promoted him to Black and gave him what he had. Mr. Parker wanted to bring him over here and help him with a chain of studios at which time, (Chow) told (Parker) to go ahead and do what you want you have my blessings. Parker did just that.
Of course he worked out with several in China Town and anywhere else (LA Japanese Styles - to Jhoon Rhee's guys like Allen Steen in Texas to Robert A. Trias in Phoenix) he could so he could analyze or compare knowledge to that of what he had..... fortunately he "ran into" several different individuals (Al Tracy, James Wing Woo, Ark Wong, Bruce Lee, Trias, Tom Connor, LaBounty, Kelly, Planas, Sullivan, Ibroa, Gow, and many, many others) that played different yet "important parts" in our history.

As students started to break off and do their "own thing" you must remember that all of them .......... I mean ALL OF THEM were Black Belts and skilled in Ed Parker's teachings regardless of what he called his art at that time! So, having said that..... Tracy broke away and started his thing but "clearly" he used material (even if he changed some of the names) that Ed Parker had provided the root idea and foundation for.

Ed Parker (yes, with the help of students and friends and his own BRAIN that used logic to pull together a strong curriculum for what he was taught by Chow, came up with the numbered Forms and sets, basics, several different drills, and any other material that is/or should be credited to him and his system alone (the 32, 24, & 16 tech. curriculums, Web of knowledge, 8 considerations, Universal Pattern, all the forms and sets, the analytical study of motion, the 3 points of view, three divisions of the art, Master Keys, specific terminology, the largest and longest running tournaments in the US. etc., etc., etc..

Mitose nor Chow neither used any of this material, (sure some similarities) are obviously generic for every system. But all the other people that broke away from Ed Parker that use any of this material came under his supervision at one time thus making the Art as we teach it today ..........Start with ED PARKER ("NOT" Mitose), and very little by Chow.

Many of the so called "differences" between any of these "Break Aways" were more than likely due to the lack of NEW knowledge, so the only thing that they had is what they left with! They kept close watch on and even changed some things to make it "appear" as if it were their creation ...... but ED PARKER kept improving and adding elements to his LIVE and evolving SYSTEM! So when these break aways "don't know of" or have "never seen" or can't explain in great detail, any of this what they call "new Material" the reason is that there was no pipeline of updates to those who left and simply........ THEY DON'T KNOW ANY OF IT!!!!!!!! With the current technology of today however, many are realizing that they are missing components to their Art.

Even though many have done "very well" and survived on just the Physical and Toughness end of the Art (which is admirable and a trait of many of the early Seniors) due to the lack of information at that time. Most can't explain the architecture of the System since they never learned any of it as well as the newer generations of Ed Parkers Black Belts such as Skip Hancock, Paul Mills, Brian Hawkins, myself and a very few others.

There you have it. (once again) heee hee:rofl:

:asian:

Well, it seems my "Lineage" now includes:

Mitose
Al Tracy
Dennis Conatser(Do I have a choice?)If I choose NO,I die. if I say YES, I get to live!:eek:

[Seig]

Change it to
Parker
Tracy
Conatser
and then you get to live!:D

[Sigung86]

Dennis,

Must have been a slow night last night! :lol: :lol: :lol:

All I was looking for is the pat where Parker said that Mitose didn't teach much, if anything in the lineage. :rofl:

I suspect that we will never know the complete truth of Mitose's involvement in the "Pre-EPAK" art. I think that both sides of the discussion put forth the facts as they fit their particular version of history.

Seriously, it doesn't really matter. There have been other folks in Kenpo, both AK and Tracy's, who have been less than stellar. It still boils down to a great method of fighting and self defense.

Saintly Uncle Dan

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Seig

Change it to
Parker
Tracy
Conatser
and then you get to live!:D

Does that mean I get my feathers back?:confused:

[Goldendragon7]

:asian: