Eight Considerations/Factors

[Ceicei]

These are open questions for any Kenpo Senior:

Mr. Ed Parker made mention of something called the "eight considerations" or factors that are necessary to be victorious in combat. He mentioned that the order of importance of these factors are: Environment, range, positions, maneuvers, targets, natural weapons, blocks, and cover.

My questions:

1) Why did he have them in that order of importance? Is importance defined as "more value" or as "what happens first"?
2) What are the significance of each consideration? What are the main points or areas of each factor?
3) Are all of them necessary together to be victorious? If so, how can honing the awareness of these be done to increase the odds of victory?

Your replies are much appreciated. :asian:

- Ceicei

[Touch Of Death]

Its weapon, angles, and cover by the way.
Sean

[Seig]

CeiCei and Sean,

You may have noticed that you have not been answered. While I appreciate the effort to keep the forum active, CeiCei, you have asked a a question you can answer for yourself starting on page 101 of volume 1 of Infinite Insights. Mr. Parker made more than just a mention.

Sean, in your zeal to correct CeiCei, you are also incorrect. The Eight Considerations are: Acceptance, Environmental Awareness, Range, Position, Manuevers, Targets, Natural Weapons, and Natural Defenses. "Weapon, angles, and cover" are all sub parts of the larger wholes.

I realize that II has gotten fairly expensive now, retailing for about $25.00 a volume and that everyone doesn't yet have a copy. But, with Christmas coming, it should be on everyone's wish list.

[Touch Of Death]

Ah, but natural weapon would be a sub catagory of weapon because what if you are holding guns? Natural refers to the performance of the basic techniques, emty handed. :)
Sean

[Ceicei]

Seig,

Well, I wasn't expecting an immediate response from the Seniors because of the Thanksgiving holiday week. I did hope for a response eventually.

I noticed your list of eight considerations differ slightly from the list I gave. The source where I got my list came from the Encyclopedia of Kenpo, which I believe came out later than the Infinite Insight series. The II called them "Preparatory Considerations", I believe. Let me grab my book to look.

The Encyclopedia didn't explain much and gave little to answering my questions--which is why I asked. The Infinite Insights did give a much better explanation and also the reason for the order. Since Encyclopedia came out later (approx. 10 years), is there a reason for the difference of some of these considerations? II gave Awareness and Natural Defenses which isn't on the EofK list. EofK gave Targets, Blocks, and Cover that isn't on II's. Are they discussing the same thing or is it a revised version? EofK calls them "eight considerations/factors involved in combat" and II calls them "preparatory considerations". I guess it is just a matter of semantics rather than any real difference in purpose.

My final question still stands (but will add a revision). How do we hone these (of whichever version) effectively to become a better martial artist? At what point did these considerations/factors "come together" for you?

- Ceicei

[Touch Of Death]

Ceicie,
From what I gather some have thrown 'em out all toguether and in its place use two considerations; so, your answers will vary.
Sean

[Seig]

Seig,

Well, I wasn't expecting an immediate response from the Seniors because of the Thanksgiving holiday week. I did hope for a response eventually.

I noticed your list of eight considerations differ slightly from the list I gave. The source where I got my list came from the Encyclopedia of Kenpo, which I believe came out later than the Infinite Insight series. The II called them "Preparatory Considerations", I believe. Let me grab my book to look.

The Encyclopedia didn't explain much and gave little to answering my questions--which is why I asked. The Infinite Insights did give a much better explanation and also the reason for the order. Since Encyclopedia came out later (approx. 10 years), is there a reason for the difference of some of these considerations? II gave Awareness and Natural Defenses which isn't on the EofK list. EofK gave Targets, Blocks, and Cover that isn't on II's. Are they discussing the same thing or is it a revised version? EofK calls them "eight considerations/factors involved in combat" and II calls them "preparatory considerations". I guess it is just a matter of semantics rather than any real difference in purpose.

My final question still stands (but will add a revision). How do we hone these (of whichever version) effectively to become a better martial artist? At what point did these considerations/factors "come together" for you?

- CeiceiI am sure Mr. C will give a much more thorough explanation when he gets back. Bear in mind, the E of K was not actually authored by Mr. Parker, but a compilation of his notes by his son. There are going to be some discrepancies. To help "hone" these, keep working your basics, and the drills. I cannot say it better than Mr. Parker did, you are already taking Kenpo, so you have already accomplished Acceptance.
Environmental Awareness can only be improved by conscious practice. Once you get in the habit of absorbing the information around you, like so many things we practice in Kenpo, it becomes subconcious. The last six must come from constant practice and drilling.

[Seig]

Ah, but natural weapon would be a sub catagory of weapon because what if you are holding guns? Natural refers to the performance of the basic techniques, emty handed. :)
SeanSean,
I understand what you are trying to say, but you are cramming a different category in the eight considerations.
What you are referring to are specialized attacks/defenses. When you start looking at Mr. Parker's break downs of his categories, you will see in almost every category a sub-section for "specialized." Many people try to force something into the considerations that they are not meant to hold. Using your gun example leads us in an entirely different direction. Where are you going now leads into the four types of combat:
Unarmed vs Unarmed
Unarmed vs Armed
Armed vs Unarmed
Armed vs Armed
In three of these categories you will notice, one person is unarmed, thus relying on natural weapons. Remember most people do not practice with guns, except to defend against in an unarmed manor. So you see, while the topics intersect, they are two different topics.
:asian:

[Seig]

Ceicie,
From what I gather some have thrown 'em out all toguether and in its place use two considerations; so, your answers will vary.
SeanUnfortunately that is true, but that is not what was given to us by Mr. Parker and therefore are not really the Preparatory Considerations.

[Goldendragon7]

Sorry I took so long to answer Ceicei, but here goes........



These are open questions for any Kenpo Senior:

Mr. Ed Parker made mention of something called the "eight considerations" or factors that are necessary to be victorious in combat. He mentioned that the order of importance of these factors are: Environment, range, positions, maneuvers, targets, natural weapons, blocks, and cover.
- Ceicei
This particular list (8 considerations) is an old list that dates back to the late 60's, it was revised in the 80's when he published the Infinite Insights and renamed the "8 Preparatory Considerations" which reads.......
1) Acceptance
2) Environment
3) Range
4) Positions
5) Maneuvers
6) Targets
7) Natural Weapons
8) Natural Defenses




[QUOTE=Ceicei]
1) Why did he have them in that order of importance?
- Ceicei It was to him the most LOGICAL order, what else.




Is importance defined as "more value" or as "what happens first"?
- Ceicei All are important areas to be considered, but in any given scenairo, one may be more useful due to the circumstances than another.




2) What are the significance of each consideration? What are the main points or areas of each factor?
- Ceicei You'll have to think on that one.




3) Are all of them necessary together to be victorious?

If so, how can honing the awareness of these be done to increase the odds of victory?
- Ceicei Are all the letters of the alphabet necessary to be used by you each day to communicate, are all of the plays that a football or basketball team may know used in every game to win?
No, so the same applies here, having a well stocked tool chest is more the idea so as to allow you to be able to use what you need... when you need it. Mr. Parker wanted us to know of many things, know the main points well, and understand the necessary aspects for survival.

Honing the awareness of all these "Kenpo Tools" can net you much insight and conditioning into many different aspects of Kenpo, thus preparing you or developing an edge over your opponent for the unknown in combat.

:asian:

[Simon Curran]

Thank you to those who started and posted on this thread, it just answered a question I didn't even know I had

[Goldendragon7]

This thread, answered a question I didn't even know I had

What ?

[Simon Curran]

What ?
Regarding the significance of the eight considerations sir, I was wondering about origins of the formalised considerations

[Goldendragon7]

Regarding the significance of the eight considerations sir, I was wondering about origins of the formalised considerations

Just another weed from the field of Ed Parker's Brain.

:)

[Simon Curran]

Just another weed from the field of Ed Parker's Brain.

:)
Wish I could've been the gardener then...

[Goldendragon7]

Wish I could've been the gardener then...
LOL, well, it was a constant battle sharpening between sharpening the tools and an keeping the ever growing fertile ground under control, right when you mow one area......... another would pop up!!

:supcool:

[Simon Curran]

LOL, well, it was a constant battle sharpening between sharpening the tools and an keeping the ever growing fertile ground under control, right when you mow one area......... another would pop up!!

:supcool:
In the absence of my own fertile ground, I am content to pick from the gardens of others.:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

In the absence of my own fertile ground, I am content to pick from the gardens of others.:asian:
a wise man you are!

[Touch Of Death]

Sean,
I understand what you are trying to say, but you are cramming a different category in the eight considerations.
What you are referring to are specialized attacks/defenses. When you start looking at Mr. Parker's break downs of his categories, you will see in almost every category a sub-section for "specialized." Many people try to force something into the considerations that they are not meant to hold. Using your gun example leads us in an entirely different direction. Where are you going now leads into the four types of combat:
Unarmed vs Unarmed
Unarmed vs Armed
Armed vs Unarmed
Armed vs Armed
In three of these categories you will notice, one person is unarmed, thus relying on natural weapons. Remember most people do not practice with guns, except to defend against in an unarmed manor. So you see, while the topics intersect, they are two different topics.
:asian:I would argue that the topics are the same if you extract the broader generalized principles, and that the eight considerations could easily apply for the Americans or combatants that do find themselves fighting with a gun.
Sean

[Simon Curran]

a wise man you are!
Thank you sir.:asian:

I hope to get there in the end...