Mystic Guidebook

[KyleShort]

The Guidebook

Hmm, so I finally got my hands on a copy of "The Russian System Guidebook" by Vladimir Vasiliev and I must say that I was suprised by what I read. I have noted a great many posts on interent regarding Systema where practitioners have downplayed the mystical (psychic) attachments that many outsiders give the art. But reading through this book I see that there are many statements that could be seen as mystical...three that come to mind as I type this:

1. staring into the mirror and eventually seeing your "animal form"
2. "charging" a glass of water with your bioenergy without touching it
3. Burining holes in pavement when releasing negative energy through your feet

So it seems that mysticism of this nature is very much apart of The System...are these concepts embraced by the general populous of Systema practitioners?

Soft Work

This is a tangent topic but it got me thinking. The videos I have seen of Sonnon's recent SoftWork(TM) seminars seem similar the videos I have seen of Systema. Of course, there are enourmous differences as well...but. How similar is Systema training to Sonnon's RMAX SoftWork(TM)?

[tichok]

Western people do not understand Russian-Style which is based upon psychological and psychic scientific research. They call it mysticism because they do not understand science of it. Russian doctors have not translated work into Western languages so people call paranormal sciences bad names like "mysticism".

Foreigners study Russian-Style but cannot understand deeper aspects connect to Russian-Style. They do not understand psychic energetic training. So they confuse psychological training and psychic training. It is very well understood in Russian-Style just misunderstood by "guests" to our martial art.

Mr. Scott Sonnon is distinguished Sambo champion and coach in Russia. Mr. Scott Sonnon is known by world for strength biomechanical teaching. Sambo is not Russian-Style and is based in inferior foreign sportive disciplines like Jiujitsu. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev is master of combat as former member of the deadly Al'fa unit in elite combat subdivision of former Soviet Union Spetsnaz Special Operation Unit. World know Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev for psychoenergetic teaching. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev understand deep paranormal sciences that much is obviously. Both Mr. Scott Sonnon and Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev practice Soft School, but Mr. Scott Sonnon uses this for mere sportive and health science. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev as master of combat uses Soft School for combative and survival science.

[Woody]

Hey there all

Tichok, what a great reply to Kyle's post! As I have posted on another RMA forum, I have studied the Western Mystery Tradition for over twenty years as a an academically trained psychologist. I can't say that I have practiced it as I can't get past some sybolism though I do some of the drills such as visualization and breathing.

It was the breathing, that Systema calls square breathing, that captured my interest in Systema. I have long practiced it and called it circular breathing! My practices are static and designed to still the mind whereas in Systema, it is designed to still the body's fear response.

Western Science is a very powerful tool for exploring the measurable universe. Yet like all tools, it is effective in some circumstances and less so in others. Quantum mechanics is making some startling concetualizations and so-called Quantum Psychology is offering some brilliant insights too. Nevertheless, I personally think the universe is a much more vast and strange something than our limited minds can comprehend.

I don't personally know if there is a "God". I wasn't there and have had no contact with him/her/it. I certainily won't take the word of a so-called religious leader. I do know that I have experience and contact with the universe (at least that part that my senses perceive) and am open to the fact that there is more "out there" than I can know about.

I look forward to interacting with those who have explored the "psychic/psychologucal/mystic" aspects of Systema and seeing the "truth of it" myself!

Warmest regards
Woody

[tichok]

Yes no. When other Western psychologists come to Russia and study psychic energetic training you will learn difference between two. It will take long time before West understands true Russian-Style. It will be near impossibility for even trained psychologist to learn difference because studies in Russia are so part of Russian heritage. Russian-Style is part of Russian soul. Another problem is that most foreigners want to learn Russian-Style to hurt people. They are dirty inside and that is why they will never learn deep master. If they no heal ego they can not touch God. God animate spirit of Russian-Style.

This is why Mr. Scott Sonnon although powerful champion in sportive cannot know Russian-Style. He competitor. Russian-Style is not about winning wrestling but about surviving true battle. I know Mr. Scott Sonnon teach United States Special Operations Units for military but you need understand that if United States military want learn combat, need study from master of combat not master of sport.

This is no defence to Mr. Scott Sonnon. He is obviously great person and popular hero of Americans. But he is not Russian-Style representative and can never be because he does not understand Russian soul.

[Woody]

Hey there tichok

Of course you are so very correct about the cultural connection! I am embarassed to have fallen into that "Ugly American" habit of speaking before understanding.:uhoh:

Thanks for your gentle reply and I hope that some day we can meet and I will learn a bit of what I need to know.

Warmest regards
Woody

[KyleShort]

Right I actually don't disagree with anything stated...in fact what you have said only supports my point. I don't have any problem with psychic training or the idea of the paranormal. I, much like Woody, am very much a Western scientist and it is actually that Western science that allows me to understand that the world is far more vast than our limited concepts of it. There is plenty of room for the paranormal as far as I am concerned.

However, my original point is this. It is clear after reading the guidebook, and now reading Tichok's (although I don't know about your credentials) reponses, that Systema certainly deals with the paranormal (read mystical)...but I have seen many Systema practicioners emphatically deny such a connection. Why?

Also, regarding Scott Sonnon. I have to disagree with your notion that he cannot teach combat because he is a master of sport. To detail this would require a very long post but I will sum it up by saying that no one holds the monopoly on effective combat training and I resist the notion that "The Systema" is the superior (as implied with the comparison to Sambo and JuJutsu) art. I don't believe in superior arts, only different objectives.

[tichok]

Mr. Woody,

You need no apologize. Even if foreigner you can learn great things with Russian-Style. No person need go to danger training levels like great masters such as Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev. Great danger and pain bring great wisdom. To touch this you must go there. Like famous Sino-American hero, Bruce Lee said "everyone accepts some level of imperfections." This is to except special people like Mr. Mikhail Ryabko. Their sacrifices to God and Motherland give them special insights and powers. Maybe these are not right words but English language is very different.

Mr. Short,

Resistance is futile as you Americans like say. Russian-Style is ancient hybrid of each soul of Russian people. Mr. Scott Sonnon does not claim to represent Russian-Style but in popular vogue of American culture he "invented his own brand." It seem like so many Americans love themselves. In Russia there is saying "everyone in America is a President." This not disparages Mr. Scott Sonnon. He is proven great fighter and world coach. It just that United States of America is young country. Fighting depth limited by cultural depth what I say. Sportive fighting like Jiujitsu and Sambo are great athletics and fun. But true combat is no where represented like in Russian-Style. Foreigners think that this is nationalism but they do not understand. Yes, Russians are proud of Russian heritage. But this is not point. Russian-Style is superior because it paints on complete canvas of combat survival, not on small pallette of sportive fighting. Too many people love this new "politically correctness" speak of giving respect first. Survival gives respect. When combat veteran survives people respect him. Even if he a great boxer or Sambo player people do not respect him when he is first called to serve and sits scared in trench. You keep Western science using. You may eventually understand some part of Russian-Style with long practice with true master. But you will never be able to buy master. True master of Russian-Style would offended if you try to give him money. Russian-Style cannot be learned through capital exchange but only from love of one soul for another soul.

[Cruentus]

Tichok,

First of all, welcome to Martialtalk (I see that it is your first few posts).

I have a few questions for you.

#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

Thanks

Paul Janulis

[tichok]

Tichok,

First of all, welcome to Martialtalk (I see that it is your first few posts).

I have a few questions for you.

#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

Thanks

Paul Janulis
Mr. Janulis,

Thank you for your welcome. Pleased to be meeting you.

#1. No, foreigner cannot "fully understand" Russian-Style.

#2. Yes, foreigners can definitely improve and develop from learning Russian-Style.

#3. It is impossible for a foreigner to "exceed" a Russian master of Russian-Style.

[JimKing]

There are some who would greatly disagree with your answers, Tichok, many of whom are Russian! I can think of two true Russian masters who would laugh at the idea only Russian individuals can "fully understand" the System. Never in the many conversations I have had with these two gentlemen did either even hint at such an idea. Yes, some aspects of the System lend themselves much more readily to those who are of Russian heritage, but to boldly assert no one other a native Russian can be fully competent in the System is outrageously elitist. This is exactly what the System is not! There are some "foreigners" in the System who understand more about being Russian than native Russians. And while I do agree wholehearedly Vlad and Mikhail are consummate masters with few equals in the world, even they would not make the claim no one is better than a "Russian Master." Aside from blatant arrogance, to even make such a statement is tantamount to saying no non-Russian will ever equal or best a true "Russian" Russian Systema practitioner simply because the second person is ethnically Russian. That is ludicrous! It is these types of comments that beg for challenge and jeers from everyone on the outside and cause all types of schisms and unnecessary debates from within. Being "Russian" is not a qualification to living the System to its fullest (Yes, some Westerners do practice and train in the System for more than the martial qualities!). Obviously, there are native Russians who lack the understanding of the universal power and appeal of the System and its cultural heritage that is comprehended, practiced, and ingrained in the lives of those whose Russian accent is definitively Western.

My two rubles. Keep them; I have many more.

Jim King

[NYCRonin]

OK - let me step out of the moderator role here and post my 'personal views'.

First, the Guidebook mentioned is a translation of an interview series with my friend and teacher Vladimir. And you do have to know that, and read it carefully to understand what he was trained in and exposed to.
The Soviets tried many 'psy' experiements as did the USA -- and little of the results were proven conclusive. Period.
A good expample is that VV mentions that he and his peers were trained to discern between colors of paper by touch. It is mentioned as an experiment that he had to endure.
He has told me that he did not learn to read color by touch - and the translation is not as accurate as he would like - and eventually, someone will re-write that bood in a manner more accurate. It was produced by TRS -- not Vlad...and again, he has told me that while the translations are less than we will eventually produce -- there is still far too much accurate information to just 'throw out the baby with the bathwater'. In time - the next incarnation of that book will be more accurate and precise.

Now, now 'Tichok' -- the statement that ONLY a Russian can EVER fully understand Russian System is very reminiscent of what Americans were told by the Koreans, Japanese and Chinese and others - over 30 years ago. Until, of course; people of other nations showed they would excel in these arts - and surpass those that by chance or fate were born in any particular geographical location.

I would guess you are native born Russian. Am I wrong?
While it is natural for some to hold such nationalistic pride closely...my over 40 years in m.a. study have proved again and again - that any true knowledge is a gift to the world - to the overall development of 'humanity'.
The 'truth' of any art far exceeds the local of ones birth - and although one may need the overall experience of a culture to fully understand a nations 'soul' - at least ot some degree - the location of birth has very little to do with understanding all Systema (at least) has to offer ALL of its far flung practitioners.

I applaud your nationalism, celebrate your heritage.
But to say akin to "ONLY a Russian can fully understand Russian System" (and I speak ONLY of Systema here)...is to make a blanket statement that I doubt Vlad, or even his teacher Ryabco or even Komorov would disagree with.
A blanket statement that I, as a certified 'instructor' of Systema under Vlad V. AND M.Ryabco - cross trained with a few Spetz in Moscow....one who knows full well the power of the System from the very icons of the art (delivered thorough blood, sweat, tears and toil - not to mention their loving fists)...one who has prayed in the chapel on Ryabcos home -- well, I respectfully have to disagree.

Completely.

I am human...The System is a gift..to all mankind. One neds not be born Russian native to 'be' Systema no more than one has to be Japanese to be Zen...Frence to be 'savate'....nor american to drive an automobile.

TRUTH is TRUTH...no matter the source nor language or nationalistic 'soul' of origin.
I expect YOU to disagree - but also, I KNOW that VV or MR would not.

Study and learn from such exceptional teachers, such 'horosho chelybeyak' (good people) and learn also that ALL of us are human -- blessed in this - and open your eyes wide.
If not, in 20 years, the hands that place you to the floor may be those of a Canadian, they might be yellow, they might be black. BUT - what those hands will be are the hands of a practitoner of Russian System (Systema) -- who surpassed birth local and learned from the very teachers you mentioned. Teachers who KNOW that ALL are brothers...all deserve to find the truth they seek...and did 'the work' to find it, internalize it and 'be' it.

It may take some time for this to pass - but as the nationalistic Japanese (et. al) learned - Truth is Truth - and Systema knows no nationalistic limitations...for it is a gift to human understanding and growth - no matter where one is born.

Ok, back to being a moderator, for now.
Tichok - I only wish to open your eyes to what my wonderful RUSSIAN teachers have passed on to me. For your benefit and mine also.

[KyleShort]

This has turned into a great thread with some very interesting perspectives...and it is still respectful which can be hard to achieve some times :)

Regarding the guidebook. I understand what you are saying NYCRonin. Translating concepts, feelings and experiences from one language to another. Entire meanings can be lost with poorer fidelity. And I certainly would not want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. In this case I have not passed judgement on what I read, but it has lead me to probe. Are mystic/psychic aspects a part of Systema as a whole? I have seen lots of internet jabber where non-practitioners take stabs at Systema for being 'magical' etc. After looking through the GB it seems to me that such psychic elements are present. Don't get me wrong, I think that martial dicipline can certainly be full bore, hard core and still have other aspects to it. Just curious because I don't really see Systema practitioners talk about this very much, and when I have it seems as though it has almost been denied.

Tichok,

I think the others have pretty well spelled out what I was thinking as well. From where I stand I think it would be very safe to say that Systema is the best system in the world for achieving Systema's goals, whatever they may be. This to me is a very important distinction. For example, the primary goal of escrima is to teach the uncomplicated, practical, and effective use of melee weapons in a short ammount of time. I think it would be safe to say that escrima achieves this goal better than Judo. But of course Judo does not share this goal and therefor you could not call Judo a better or worse discipline.

[Furtry]

Kyle, discussing these topics in public forums leads to allot of misrepresentation and misunderstanding. The psychic work is psychological work. In other words if the person is unconscious he will not be manipulated.
Last thing, as NYCRonin stated, the book has some things mistranslated and taken out of context. Looking at the examples you pointed out and the context you presented them in. It all can very easily be taken to the level of the occult, which is NOT what Systema is about.
Tichok, tu nepamagaish.

[Paul Genge]

I have seen lots of internet jabber where non-practitioners take stabs at Systema for being 'magical' etc.
The majority of the critism comes from seeing work with little or no contact. On the last seminar in the UK with Michael Ryabko he stated, "There is nothing magical and no mysterious powers used. It is simply an understanding of psycology and physiology."

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

[Cruentus]

Mr. Janulis,

Thank you for your welcome. Pleased to be meeting you.

#1. No, foreigner cannot "fully understand" Russian-Style.

#2. Yes, foreigners can definitely improve and develop from learning Russian-Style.

#3. It is impossible for a foreigner to "exceed" a Russian master of Russian-Style.

That's what I thought you'd say. Well, in my opinion, that is the kind of ethnocentricism and "art worship" that can get you killed (possibly through underestimating your opponent or otherwise). I hope that we cross paths some day, and the we can exchange ideas, in the spirit of learning, on the training floor.

Thanks for your prompt reply.

yours,

Paul Janulis

[tichok]

It seem so many foreign 'instructors' of Systema come to represent their opinion of Russian-Style that I am not correct. That is no "big deal". I understand very well, Mr. Furtry

You may come to learn great deal with Russian-Style but that does not mean you are deep master. When a deep master of Russian-Style is born and raised in foreign country then you may say "tichok, you are wrong." Until then, I am proved right and you are proved wrong.
As American automobile salesmen love to say "the bottom line is" Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and Mr. Mikhail Ryabko will never say that a foreigner has "exceeded" them. Everyone here know that this is truth no matter if they defended by my answers or not.

[Furtry]

It seem so many foreign 'instructors' of Systema come to represent their opinion of Russian-Style that I am not correct. That is no "big deal". I understand very well, Mr. Furtry

You may come to learn great deal with Russian-Style but that does not mean you are deep master. When a deep master of Russian-Style is born and raised in foreign country then you may say "tichok, you are wrong." Until then, I am proved right and you are proved wrong.
As American automobile salesmen love to say "the bottom line is" Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and Mr. Mikhail Ryabko will never say that a foreigner has "exceeded" them. Everyone here know that this is truth no matter if they defended by my answers or not.
Actually Brad, I said "you are not helping".

[tichok]

Maybe "Brad" is curse where you live, not here.

You believe psychic is psychological. This is wrong. There are three aspects to Russian-Style. Physical. Psychological. Psychic. Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev even publish this in book.

Foreigners afraid to defend attacks from inferior styles and say "no, no, no. Psychic is just psychological." But psychic is psychic. Not Psychological. You are not logical. Thing can not be both A and not-A. It is not logical.

Offer Mr. Scott Sonnon as example of foreigner who is master of Russian-Style is not right. He is master of foriegn style. SAMBO. Even ROSS come from SAMBO. He is master of his own style. But it is not Russian-Style.

[Furtry]

Actually Tichock in this case your grasp of the english language is keeping you from mastering it this time. But then you're not Russian and you haven't discussed this topic with Vlad, in Russian, as I have. My Russian may not be perfect but it is fluent as I am a Russian, who was born in Russia.

Getlemen, I'm not sure what Tichocks song and dance is but he is a perfect example of why this topic is not visited on public forums.

[KyleShort]

Furtry,

Yeah I totally understand what you are saying. When I listed those three examples I did so in the interest of brevity, but even then I can see how the context is altered somewhat. I don't want to imply in anyway that Systema has anything to do with the occult. It is all a matter of social threshold. The concept of Ki and hara seems to be fairly well accepted in modern times, but a few hundred years ago it would have been considered witchcraft. The threshold continues to move.

In spite of contextual misrepresentation, there are things in the guide book that would fall into the category of mystical. To focus on one example, it was described that through cold water cleansing an individual could not only burn holes in, but break concrete through escaping negative energy. This seems to contradict the quote provided by Paul...clearly there are some magical aspects to this training (though I am not so ignorant as to associate slow training with magik)

Perhaps what is most important is recognizing that 'magic' is really just an occurence that science cannot explain...a pistol would have been a magical weapon back in ancient Greece.

I guess I can make this VERY simple and ask this....

Question:

Do Systema practitioners perform the exercises described in the guidebook, and experience similar results? Specifically those pertaining to charging water, animal forms, water dowsing and burning energy etc.?

BTW. I think that it is safe to assume that no one reading this thread would accept Tichok as representative of the Systema community on this forum.

[tichok]

OK. So, you only speak to people in West who are Westerners and who practice "Systema" there. OK. By the way, "Systema" is generic name for Russian-Style. There are many Systemi Russian-Style.

In Russia, in Russian-Style, the answer is Yes. We are no ashamed to admit it like foriegners. That much is obviously.

[Jay Bell]

Am I the only one here hearing a "Nyah-nyah" type of attitude in tichok's posts?

Tichok,

I'm failing to understand where you feel this is getting you. Many people, seasoned vets of Systema, have posted about the language misunderstanding between psychic and psychological. Hoping for something mystical in search of some 'master on the mountain' type of outlook doesn't make it true.

Personally, I'll accept my experiances and those of Rob, Futry, Paul, Vlad and Mikhail over someone seemingly so bent to be a mystic, that he can't see the forest or the trees.

[RMACKD]

Tichok, I am shocked at your insults of other styles. Just how much experience in other style do you have? Systema is a good art but I do not consider it superior to other arts I have trained in and I actually do rank a few arts higher in effectiveness above systema. But I don't go around on the internet telling everyone to dump systema and try other things. I do believe that if you are talking about more soft and non-resistance based arts that Systema is at the top in effectiveness but I do not tell tai chi people to dump there style for systema. Your comments are rude and are very strange. Every systema practicioner I met never went off bragging about the superiority of systema. Who do you train under? To say that a foreigner can not master a russian style is ridiculous. Many foriegners have become champs in thai kickboxing and I have no doubt that there will be practicioners from other countries that happen to be more skilled than Russian practicioners.

[alexk]

wow, Tichok really sounds like a troll, but that maybe because his English is so poor.

[NYCRonin]

Alex....I personally dont feel so much a 'trollish' expression from 'thicok' as much as I do the missplaced nationalism and eliteism that I became VERY familiar with a few decades ago in other arts I was a part of, that were born in different cultures than mine. Opinions of the 'native sons'- that we always subsequently proven wrong - and never shared by the acknowledged leaders of any art, for they also saw the 'common ground' of humanity, as they taught openly thier arts flavor. If this is the same 'tichok' I have encountered before on other forums, some that even no longer exist -- he has always been interesting to read. I bear him no animosity for this particular 'understanding' he expresses...I know as you do - his opinion is as valid, and his own.
And as stated, it is not the opinion I have received from the lips of the Russian teachers who I honor, love and care for.

This writer is now 50 years old...and I have wandered the 'way' for 41 of those years. My teachers have come from many cultures, and have had many different skin colors and religious/cultural/social points of origin...I am VERY thankful for that fact...and more thankful that the evolved 'human soul' KNOWS the fact that geography is no more a blessing than it can be a curse.

The 'Tropa' - the 'way' - the 'path' - has many faces and many expressions - yet they are all human.

'WE' are also - all -- human.

Nationalistic pride, and predjudice; be damned! That which makes us all the same FAR outweighs such nit-picking differences.

TRUTH is simply TRUTH!
And the depths of truth that the Russian System I have been blessed to learn and follow (and be a 'foreign instructor' of) is something far greater than a lattitude or longitude on the globe. 'IT' is a gift of knowledge and understanding and growth to the worlds humanity...and to say that it is only to be truly, 'deeply' understood by those born to any dot on the map - is to cheapen the deep validity of 'its' truth and gifts to us all.

AND - a disservice to the teachers who pass it along...and those who shed their past blood in history on the Russian soil in war and conflict and sadness and victory as well -- through hundreds of years of development.

I am sorry tichock - but, in this; you have a misplaced commitment to simple nationalism. Not to the simple inspiring beauty of the Russian System that my teachers, my friends who I love and admire.

This simple NYC native KNOWS what they have personally told me -- and unless they recant their words, I have to simply state that you are 'wrong'.
Until you can 'prove' they have 'deceived' me -- I choose to go with them.

I will even go as far as to state that the 'deepest' level of mastery can be attained by a non-Russian practitioner. I will never attain it...but I dont care.
The beauty of Systema. as taught to me by VV and MR; has shown me that "I am at home with this, as no other" (old Zen poem quote - in paraphrase)...but I assure all reading, that non-native students can and will attain full mastery of this art..in time...and before one way expect.

[milosmalic]

I have a bit different answers to this questions




#1. Do you think that only people of Russian blood can fully understand Russian style? I mean, do you think it is possible for a foriegner to understand?

#2. Do you think that it is possible that someone from another culture and martial art could learn and understand the same elements and concepts that exist in "Russian Style?"

#3. Do you think it is possible that a master from another culture and martial art could possibly exceed Russian masters in one or more elements?

1. At least Slavic blood and Orthodox Christian belief is a huge adventage. Heroic predecessors which participated in many battles is a plus on that adventage.

2. Yes it is. It is very difficult, but this world is full of interesting and unique persons. God took care of that.

3. 'Level of mastery' and 'element' is very variable thing. Giving answer to this undefined question is impossible. If you ask: "Is it possible that master from another culture roll faster then Russian one" the answer could be yes...

[jellyman]

Will a person learning systema starting at age 20 ever catch up to person starting at age 5? Unlikely unless the latter stops progressing.

Does it matter the heritage of the people involved? Only insofar as what individual attribuites they inherit.

Just because your dad's a math genius doesn't make YOU a math genius. Maybe your great-great-great-great-great-great-grandfather was a brilliant warrior, but that doesn't mean he passed that gift to his descendents. Ghengis Khan was the most prolific alpha male in recorded history. Genetic tests show that 16 million of the worlds population is directly descended from him. Of those many descendents http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20030205-100301-1566r , how many do you think can ride and shoot like he did? It may be a nice whimsy to say to yourself that the blood and skill of warriors past echoes in your veins, but unless all your female ancestors had the secret mystery warrior gene too [sarcasm - no scientists I know of have isolated such a thing], the odds are decidedly against it.Espcially when you realize that each child is the result of combining genes from the parents, and then mutating a certain amount of them. No child is a copy of the parents, and each child has genetic mutation profile unique to itself.

Besdies which, systema is not about being the fastest or the strongest.

In fact, that kind of thinking can lead to demise - systema proficciency and arrogance don't really mix very well. At least, that's what VV tells us gullible foreigners and russians.

Anyway, I'm all about doing the best I can for me, not measuring up to some imagined ideal (where did I learn that one from...?).

Also, dogging Sonnon is uncalled for.

Mysticism in systema - maybe in russian cultural traditions, yes, I have heard of such things.

But - not something taught at club Vlad, not something Mikhail credits (I asked him directly, citing footage I saw of a guy stamping the earth and people 20 yards away falling over among other things - his answer was a chuckle and a word - '********'). Unless he was just lying to the gullible foreigner again...

Conspiracy theories can explain anything though. It could be there's a massive conspiracy to perpetuate mysticism in RMA, and VV and MR have broken ranks, for example.

Or it could be tichok is trying to stir things up.

Or maybe I'm a mole from the MVD trying to stop foreigners from looking too closely.

[RachelK]

At least Slavic blood and Orthodox Christian belief is a huge advantage. Heroic predecessors which participated in many battles is a plus on that advantage.
I judge people by what they do, not who they are. By descent I am entirely Slavic but culturally I am American and we are well-known for this attitude. Your ancestors might be the greatest warriors in the world but here in NYC, we want to know, what have you done lately? I haven't noticed my Russian classmates are any more proficient than the Americans, nor do they take to Systema any more easily. Individual personality, open-mindedness, and diligence are much greater factors than ethnic heritage. Relying on one's heritage to give an advantage just might make the practitioner lazy. I've never felt as if I have to work harder because I am not Russian. I've always felt I am just as welcome as anyone to study Systema and how many times have my teachers told me that anyone who works hard can attain the same level of profiency as even the greatest masters?

I, too, have "heroic predecessors," like many of my Russian counterparts, my ancestors fought the Nazis. No, they didn't use swords and mail, but they fought and died nonetheless. My friend's ancestor delivered the papers to the Pentagon that officially ended WWII. Another friend's ancestor fought with the Maquis, was wounded, captured, and held at Buchenwald, where he was starved and had to eat his own bloody bandages to survive. Maybe we don't have thousands of years of heroics behind us, but heroics are not unique to one culture.

As far as the Orthodox beliefs, I have not found this to be a huge advantage in my fellow practioners who happen to be Orthodox. Fighting skill doesn't appear magically when one has the right heritage or adheres to a specific religion. One isn't "born" with a predisposition for Systema. It is nuture, not nature, from which we learn the principles of Systema. I learn from my teachers, who learn from Vlad and Mikhail. When I read something that is so contrary to what I've learned, I cannot help but wonder if this is being taught formally to Systema students, and if so, it strikes me as a shame that aspiring students should be taught that they can only go so far because of their ancestry. This attitude was once common in the U.S. and many of my parents' generation gave their lives in the struggle to change the hearts and minds of our society. I hate to see this attitude within the Systema community. It seems the very opposite of all I have learned about Systema and its inclusiveness. It's not my prerogative to say it is a "wrong" attitude as I am not close to the sources of Systema teachings. But my teacher is. And until he tells me otherwise, I'll continue to believe that Systema can be mastered by anyone.

*Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel

[jellyman]

Fighting skill doesn't appear magically when one has the right heritage or adheres to a specific religion.

Yeah, but then you get into the discussion of whether fighting skill is all there is to get, etc. etc. Maybe in some ineffable way, the ROC people get something no-one else does, that no-one else will see. For example, a better understanding of christianity as practiced by ROC. The question is, if you're not ROC, would you care?

[KyleShort]

Mysticism in systema - maybe in russian cultural traditions, yes, I have heard of such things.

But - not something taught at club Vlad, not something Mikhail credits (I asked him directly, citing footage I saw of a guy stamping the earth and people 20 yards away falling over among other things - his answer was a chuckle and a word - '********'). Unless he was just lying to the gullible foreigner again...



Why is it in the guidebook then? Am I missing something? Perhaps I missunderstand the intent of the guidebook or I am missing the context of the examples that I have given?

Thanks for your insight!

[tichok]

It is still in because it cause contraversial. Then when people come, foreigners play game of "back peddle". They say, "no, it's not right. Mystical not here." Very soon new revised book will be publish. It will not include these because Systema is know-how "brand." Nothing will be need to "sell" it to foreigners because people come to it for own sake.

You see this is very, very old Russian custom. Stalin best it. SAMBO is example like onion. Layer after layer foreigners peel. They hope to get real SAMBO. Under Mr. Anatoli Kharlampiev. Under Mr. Vasili Oshchepkov. Under Mr. Viktor Spiridonov. Three different styles (and more foreigners dont know) but these major. What is middle of onion? What is final layer? Nothing. It is difficult to foreigner to understand Russian soul. We had secrets as cultural tradition even when we make "fairy tale" because people want believe. Russian-Style is true but you need stop want "fairy tale."

Mr. Scott Sonnon teach in Russia his American know-how to special police OMON security units. It show on Russian television NTV. He asked question if he teach ROSS secrets to American military. He say, "yes, but truth is truth. We all better people together from study". He is distinguished coach and wrestler but this not Russian-Style. He teach his own "universal" style which is typical of America. It only touch small spot of physical and psychological but never psychic.

[NYCRonin]

When one enters the tie in between any m.art and any religious or philosophy/cultural base - there will always be a certain 'elitism' from those that are more similar to the head man in personal beliefs. If you have been around arts from different cultures, you have seen it before -- and seen it is not any particular great advantage. And that the 'master' involved does not share that 'elitism' -- they have all seen further into the nature of what a student is all about.
Now, dont get me wrong, there are certain advantages to sharing a culture and language with a teacher. Since it is 'nurture' -- it is easier for the teacher to communicate ideas when a translator is not required -- but a good teacher finds a way to explain things well, a great teacher can pass along things excellently, sometimes without words at all.
Lets take an easy to understand comparison from the m.art world.
Old lineage 'samurai' jiu-jitsu.
Ever study this? When you do, you would be amazed at the extensive list of 'defense against the wrist grab' moves. A westerner is often perplexed with that - because the wrist grab just seems to get so much attention. Ah, but if you understand the time from which such arts sprang, you would realize that it was VERY important to a samurai -- because a wrist grab was a form of 'attack by interception' - in other words, it was an attempt to prevent the drawing of the sword. Makes sense now, doesnt it?
So, I have touched on 'language/national' and 'historical/cultural' advantages.
Now - (as it is said "Unless you want to start an argument, stay away from religion and politics as topics) - although I have No desire to start any religious argument - this needs to be understood also.
Since the masters mentioned - VV and MR - are deeply religious men of the ROC -- they embody their beliefs and, at times; make very clear refferences to their beliefs as they explain the whys and wherefores of Systema -- their whole life is a 'gestalt' -- an integrated oness. Its part of their charm and grace. Still, they pass along all they have to offer freely - and Systema no more requires one to be 'like the masters to totally understand it' by being ROC than one is required to be a Spetsnaz veteran -- which they both are.

Jellyman and I have both been privaleged enough to enter into the beautiful ROC chapel built on the grounds of MR's home. It is beautiful and holy place - as were the monastaries we visited. When I have twice met Father Vladimir (Vlad's ROC priest in Toronto) - both times I privately asked for a blessing for my loved ones, the world and finally, myself. He knew I am not ROC, as does VV, MR and 'the crew' -- but Father Vladimir shared his faith with me freely, as does VV and MR also, and although I might be best described as a 'zennist/wayist' -- I do feel 'blessed' by their openess and learn also from their faith - faith in their God, faith in the System, and their faith in me, as a person; as well.

They do not hold to any form of 'eliteism' -- and are there for all who come to the gate with an open heart. If these masters do so -- it would be well for anyone that puffs up their pride and ego -- to learn from their example.

In closing this: Will there ever be a 'master' of what VV/MR pass on that is not 'Russian' -- of course there will be, in time. It is destined to be. Will that person have to be very dedicated and exceptional? Again, of course. Still, even a Russian who 'masters' this HAS to be exceptional. He/she may have certain advantages due to the factors mentioned above - advantages that would make it abit easier for them to learn. The challeges are not insurmountable for the dedicated. Just being the best 'good person' you can be is more than enough of a challenge - a challenge worthy of of the student and our master teachers as well.

Just do your best - shoot for the moon, for even if you miss; you will land amongst the stars.

[RachelK]

I think there is a lot more to Systema, and to life, than fighting skill. We have a lot more to "get" than fighting skill if we want to become good students of the System. The Guidebook mentions principles like harmonizing your life, using Systema as a force for good, recognizing that there is a higher power than yourself, treating other people with compassion. Humility, love for fellow man, living honestly and compassionately, performing good deeds, these ideas are not unique to any religion. I distrust any religion that claims to have a monopoly on such ideas. Certainly ROC offers a different perspective on spirituality than other religions. But doesn't every religion offer something that no other religion offers? Otherwise, we wouldn't have so many, LOL.
I can't help but notice that so few of those willing to adhere to the idea of "you must be Russian/ROC to master Systema" are actually certified teachers. If this becomes the general consensus and approved doctrine of our teachers, then I'll have to eat my words. But until then I'll trust in what Rob Green says on this matter, as he has been around Systema a long time and is close to the sources, from whom I am quite distant.
Kyle, I have no idea if this will help with your questions, but the Guidebook is also a historical description of Vlad's own military training, to provide some background on Systema as he now teaches it. The sections where he describes mirror-scyring, charging water, or touching colors are in the historical background section, not in the "tips for training" section. Nowhere in the Guidebook does Vlad advocate that current students of Systema try these so-called mystical exercises, nor does he suggest that current students try some of the more gruelling or even cruel exercises he describes. Cold water dousing doesn't fall under the same category, as it is a health practice in wide use all over the world. As far as the burning holes in the snow, give cold-water dousing a try and you will have a closer understanding of how this could possibly happen. I guess this message will end as so many of our messages do, with a suggestion to try it or if you're already in Systema classes, ask your teacher about the Guidebook and maybe he will offer some suggestions for interpretation.
Good luck and *Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel

[tichok]

Let us put aside emotion. Mr. Scott Sonnon foreign product of Russian-Style. He move like Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev and he is distinguished fighter. But even though he most advanced foreigner in Russian-Style, he claim no psychic energetical training exist. This is not because it dont exist. It because Mr. Scott Sonnon cannot understand it because he not Russian like Mr. Rob Green say about Samurai "wrist twist."

[NYCRonin]

As I am definetly unqualified to comment on ROSS or Sambo - I will let others more versed debate that part of the thread.

I am not Russian, but I do 'psy' work and have done so in real world combative experience also. I was taught this by VV and MR....and can do some things that I never thought were possible, but I learned...without benefit of Russian birth. (And Vlad and Scott S. do not move alike, that I know for a fact....only superficial similarities in common movement -- but hardly the same).

RE: Systema, as taught by Vlad and Misha -- I can see a certain pattern of set ideas beginning to repeat themselves, including mine.

So, I suggest we let time be the judge. Let us see where 'Systema' is in, say; 10 years time - 2014....I plan on still being around...and a part of Systema as well. Even just 5 years time will be very revealing and answer many of the points expressed and questions raised.
"For everything there is a season...for everything there is a time".

I will sit back and read -- I have the time to do so.

[tichok]

We play politically? No foreigner in Mr. Vladimir Vasiliev style say about Mr. Scott Sonnon good things because they no train with him. No foreigner in Mr. Scott Sonnon style say about Mr. Scott Sonnon bad things because they do train with him. So we no talk. OK. That fine. I make my point.

[ABN]

I'm not sure I understand your hostility towards Coach Sonnon nor do I understand what it has to do with the Russian system guidebook. Comparing Coach Sonnon, or Vladimir Vasiliev, or Mikhail Ryabko is pointless. All three are men who have found success on paths that have lead them to those they train. Sure being on an Al'fa team is not the same as being a Master of Sport but, do you deny that both have something valid to teach in the combat arts?
I have met and had the opportunity to work with both VV and Coach Sonnon (I hope one day to have the privilige of training with Mikhail Ryabko). I walked away from each experience better than I was before not just as a warrior but as a whole person. I am sure that the OMON troops who trained with Coach Sonnon and the members of various western Special Operations Units who trained with Vladimir Vasiliev would say the same thing. When you work with someone whose level of skill permeates their very soul, you are in the presence of someone special regardless of their nationality.
I am saddened to see eyes hardened and unwilling to acknowledge the accomplishments of others. In closing I want to share an experience that may benefit you; as a Systema zygote (I now consider myself a Systema fetus) at a seminar, Vlad saw my tension from across the room (a blind man could have seen it) he said "smile" and went about training. I encourage you to do the same.

[NYCRonin]

Tichok -- as far as a student of VV not saying anything 'good' about Scott S. - you are VERY wrong. If you search this site about SS, you will find that I and a few other VV students have nothing but respect for the man, and have shown support for him.
I cant comment about ROSS/Sambo because I dont study them. I have no 'disrespect' for these methods either -- just dont study them. I try to avoid posting about things I know little about.

[jellyman]

"Why is it in the guidebook then? Am I missing something? Perhaps I missunderstand the intent of the guidebook or I am missing the context of the examples that I have given?"

These are all about his days training in spetsnaz, right? Remember where he says this isn't what he teaches? It's all one with the halling corpses out of cars.

At the International camp in Ontario last summer, the mirror excercise was brought up. Response was - not part of systema, only done by certain units, not recommended for general public.

[WillFightForBeer]

Tichok, I fear that the language barrier is affecting your level of communication. PM me your phone number and we'll talk in Russian.

-Ilya

[milosmalic]

I judge people by what they do, not who they are. By descent I am entirely Slavic but culturally I am American and we are well-known for this attitude.Yes you are.


Your ancestors might be the greatest warriors in the world but here in NYC, we want to know, what have you done lately?According to CNN nothing :-)


I haven't noticed my Russian classmates are any more proficient than the AmericansAre they 'russian' as you are slavic in NYC?


Individual personality, open-mindedness, and diligence are much greater factors than ethnic heritage.Yes, but there you count 1, 2 and 3 as some special or rare attributes - and then those are something in very base of slavic customs, domestic education and orthodox christian religion. This is how Systema came to this world. Then, you forgot LOVE. I agree with you on this, I just wanted to explain where is start adventage. This is at the same time why don't you see that adventage with NYC domestic russian students.


I've never felt as if I have to work harder because I am not Russian.Same here.


Maybe we don't have thousands of years of heroics behind us, but heroics are not unique to one culture.I didn't mean culture related, I ment in your family. In your bloodline.


As far as the Orthodox beliefs, I have not found this to be a huge advantage in my fellow practioners who happen to be Orthodox. Fighting skill doesn't appear magically when one has the right heritage or adheres to a specific religion.Next time you see Mikhail Rybko ask him about this.


I learn from my teachers, who learn from Vlad and Mikhail.Ok, then you can ask your teachers if they ever heared Mikhail answer to the questions like: "How do I learn this relaxed punch ...." like this: "To do that you have to be good person but mostly only orthodox christian people can do that". (this was not a quote)


it strikes me as a shame that aspiring students should be taught that they can only go so far because of their ancestry.NO NO NO, THIS IS NOT WHAT I MENT, PLEASE. What I mean is that people of the same origin as Systema has some adventage and prepareness for things waiting along the way. That is all. Take your time and watch, better systema practicioners the students are, they will be more similar to what I wrote in the list you dislike so much.


I hate to see this attitude within the Systema community. It seems the very opposite of all I have learned about Systema and its inclusiveness.Please do not persist in missinterpreting my words. Systema is inclusive, I only gave you the 'tips' where your attention should be.


I'll continue to believe that Systema can be mastered by anyone.No it cannot. Not by anyone for sure. It might be mastered by more people than today and some of them might be westerners or far easterners of african by origin.


*Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
RachelHvala, ako ikad odlucis da posetis Srbiju, vezbas sa nama i obidjes manastire i mesta velikih bitaka - dobro dosao.

Thanx, if you ever decide to visit Serbia, train with us and take a tour to monasteries and places of big battles - you are welcome.

[WillFightForBeer]

Funny Milo, before you'd always come across as intelligent and......well.....open-minded?

Let me present a very simple, bare-boned fact before I pose my opinion on the subject. I am 100%, thoroughbred, "pure-blood" Russian. I have Slavic heritage, blah, blah, blah. So if you were hoping to discount my opinion because of my genes, then I suggest you find another way, as I am genetically equal to you.
I was born in Russia, lived there, speak the language, etc.

I've been surrounded by Russians since birth, so I am more than familiar with their beliefs, opinions, etc.
And I would like to say.......
You are wrong. Thoroughly, 100% wrong.

Martial Arts teachers are just that: Martial Arts teachers. They are not:
Shamans
Religious Leaders
Superheroes
Mentors
Gods
Doctors

They are not, by their martial arts certification, qualified to be ANYTHING but a Martial Arts teacher. I respect Mikhail. I honestly do. But if he told me that in order to learn a punch, I would have to become Russian Orthodox (as preposterous as that sounds in the first place), I would honestly tell him to go ***** himself.
The Russian Orthodox are no "purer" than anyone else, and the concept of having to convert in order to further one's training is ridiculous at best, and participation in the shameless recruiting for a cult at worst.

If someone told you that in order to become a decent banker, you would have to be able to cook a turkey in minutes, would you go ahead and find a recipe, or laugh your ASS off?

-Ilya

[RachelK]

Some of my Russian classmates don't speak English. Large portions of our class are taught in Russian so they can learn, too. They are obviously recently emigrated to the U.S. If they have a natural advantage, it hasn't been apparent. Maybe it takes a few years for this advantage to manifest itself. How long does a Russian stay in the U.S. before the "advantage" wears off, anyway? I want to warn my Russian classmates to get cracking before they become "domestic" Russians and lose this yet-to-be-revealed advantage.

This is the first I've heard that personality, open-mindedness, and diligence are to be found in greater quantities in Slavic culture than anywhere else. Charming though they may be, I never thought of Slavs as having more personality than other cultures. So Slavs are the best, huh? Well, there's something to admire about ethnic pride, to be sure (assuming you are Slavic, I've no idea). I personally don't put much stock in other people's ancestors. I've known very bad people from good and even noble families, and downright heros who are the offspring of criminals. Maybe I am descended from warriors--it was once the pastime of the nobility and some have tried to tell my one side of the family was noble, because of the prefix of the original surname. But I don't care. Maybe they had a great big bloody castle and the biggest host you ever saw. Maybe they were Nazis. I'll never know, they're long gone. Maybe I have the Slavic blood AND the heroic predecessors, I mean, 2 out of 4's not bad, that's half an advantage, anyway.

Or does being born in NY negate all that because I'm domestic? Is there a System for calculating this advantage? I'm Slavic by descent and let's say for the purposes of tallying advantage, I also have the heroic ancestors. But I'm not Russian or ROC, just a Russophile. But my co-worker speaks fluent Russian and is familiar with the culture. However, he's not Slavic, he's from Uzbekhstan and he's Jewish. Then I have another friend who is neither Slavic, Russian, ROC, but maybe she has the heroic ancestors, I never asked (did I mention New Yorker's don't give a rat's ass who your ancestors were? Pardon for being crude but I am domestic and that is the local dialect, you see.) But she has her degree in Russian studies, has traveled there, speaks the language fluently, and is certainly the most knowledgeable about Russia of any of us. So who has the biggest advantage if we all took up Systema at the same time? Would it be the one who has most recently immigrated to the U.S.? Is this closeness to the Russian soul that gives the advantage a geographic, spiritual, cultural, or simply genetic closeness? I really want to know so I can get a better idea of how this increasingly hypothetical advantage is measured.

I take particular umbrage at your remark, "Next time you see Mikhail Rybako ask him about this." I twice posted to this thread that I am far from the sources of Systema, by which I thought it was understand I've never even met Mikhail Rybako. Did you not know I've never met Mikhail Ryabko? I think you know this, but pointed it out anyway just to be snarky. More than anything else in your post, this remark strikes me as hostile. I haven't met Mikhail Rybako, so what do I know of Systema? Suprisingly, I agree with you there. That is why I twice mentioned that I am far from Systema's sources. Honestly, if you told me to Shut Up I'd take less offence than this remark. Unless you really meant to say, "You should ask Mikhail Rybako about this," which is good advice, but the sly use of the word "Next" indicates that you are saracastically implying that my visits to MR have been frequent although you know this is not true.

Going by what others have said of him, which is by no means definitive, and videos and printed interviews--also not a deciding factor as these can be edited, but that's all the info I have available to me--it seems MR would say that ROC will give you an advantage in everything. Not just Systema, but life. He is passionate about his faith, isn't he? But has he ever said that converting to ROC will give you an advantage in Systema? Or do you also have to be born to ROC, in which case, my Russian Jewish classmates lose a little of their overall advantage,

All right, so Systema can't be mastered by anyone. I guess you just have to be born to it. You've made this quite clear, fine I'll remain a dilettante. If that's Systema than perhaps I am not a student of it, I'm just a student of my teacher, who says that respect is given as it is earned. I'd throw in my lot with that approach over the other in a heartbeat.

Your closing says I am welcome to visit you in Serbia but the body of your message says quite another thing altogether. It's ironic that I only just discovered the Serbia training opportunities through http://www.russianmartialart-serbia.com/ and had really enjoyed browsing the site and fantasizing about the day I'd visit. I had wanted to visit Moscow but after looking at the site, I thought Serbia looked like fantastic opportunity for my first visit to Russia. I really wanted to see all the historic sites described and to take advantage of the great training, the surrounding country, and the beautiful facilities. I still think it's a great opportunity, but it's one which is no longer an option for me. I won't say never, because I can't divine the future, but a certain analogy about a large icy particle of precipitation and the blazing underworld springs to mind.

Pardon me if this post is too abrasive, I have five generations of Brooklyn in my bloodlines and that gives a huge advantage when it comes to insulting people.

-Rachel

[milosmalic]

Thanx for your replies


Did you not know I've never met Mikhail Ryabko? I think you know this, but pointed it out anyway just to be snarky. More than anything else in your post, this remark strikes me as hostile. I haven't met Mikhail Rybako, so what do I know of Systema?I haven't ever met him as well. You made a mistake with this statement. I don't think like that about you or anybody else who didn't meet MK. I am a member of that club :-)


I had wanted to visit Moscow but after looking at the site, I thought Serbia looked like fantastic opportunity for my first visit to Russia.Hm, Serbia isn't part of Russia. It never hasn't been, and it never will be. Check the map. There are even several countries between us and them.


Pardon me if this post is too abrasive, I have five generations of Brooklyn in my bloodlines and that gives a huge advantage when it comes to insulting people.I am not offended. I didn't expect that you would understand exactly what I mean. Partly because of my english, and partly because you don't have a clue. That is not bad, it is just a fact.

Let me try to explain a bit more. For example, when I look at Scott Sonnon everything that he performs is perfect. It is obvious that behind the curtain there is lot of dedicated work, sweat and thinking through every detail. Long time of researching every aspect. But even though, when I see him working all his moves seem to me like act of will and not spontaneous.

You must understand that I am far below any level of mastery, and most probably I will never become one. This is only my opinion, actually rather feeling that opinion. That is what I feel, and I am open to share my feelings. Man cannot see an aura on the tape, or something like that - but some things man can just feel.....

People here for example are different than Russian. We have a bit more southern temper. That is often an obstacle for really incoorporating Systema. I am not talking about imitation of repetiton of moves. I have heared Russian guys (soldiers who came to help us during the last war) saying: "This is not perfect mach for you people, you have different temper. Go boxing, kick-boxing or something like that. It is not good to be aggressive, but it is no good in repressing the aggression if it exists by the definition of a person". I understand what they ment. I see the difference between Russian, Serbs and western people even more. That is not the ultimate obstacle. I personally believe that that will not disturb my development as well.

Basically, me and you relate on same thing - that everybody can learn Systema. But I will repeat: "Anybody can't become a master". (can I put two negations in one sentence?)

I don't have words to explain this :-(

[milosmalic]

Funny Milo, before you'd always come across as intelligent and......well.....open-minded?People learn during the time. And they change.

I am joking of course.

I have the feeling that I didn't explain very well what I ment. For start I don't have any rasistic or territorial problems.


You are wrong. Thoroughly, 100% wrong. I can accept that. I might not be right.

But if he told me that in order to learn a punch, I would have to become Russian Orthodox (as preposterous as that sounds in the first place), I would honestly tell him to go ***** himself. I personally think that he said that as a joke and to take boring students and their not very deep questions of his back for a while :-) Anyhow, I think that people don't know enough about O. Christianity to understand what was he thinking about when he mentioned punch, relaxation and lack of negative feelings and a belief in the same context.


...
and participation in the shameless recruiting for a cult at worst.You went too far with this. Nobody is recruiting nobody. And OC is not a cult. Come on. You among first should know that it is most open, liberal and based on mans free will to be 'member' of all.


If someone told you that in order to become a decent banker, you would have to be able to cook a turkey in minutes, would you go ahead and find a recipe, or laugh your ASS off?Depends on who told me that. Bank manager? Bank owner? Banker of the year. Person in charge of client relations (and clients like turkey)? Life is not so pragmatic and suitable for generalization as some people think. They find the sanctuary in explaining themselfs some weird stuff in this way.

I don't know, but I am almost sure that I wouldn't laugh my ass off. Maybe I would change a Bank, but with respect to Turkey Eaters Bank.

[jellyman]

milosmalic

Do you work out with Sasha from Vald's?

[jellyman]

From Mikhail's web site:


"system" - this is the standardized procedure of instruction and training in the form of the system of physical, psychological and spiritual exercises, which can be used for instruction and training any person independently of his floor, age, physical state, nationality, religion.

(my emphasis)

or, in the original russian:


«Система» – это унифицированная методика обучения и воспитания в виде системы физических, психологических и духовных упражнений, которая может использоваться для обучения и воспитания любого человека вне зависимости от его пола, возраста, физического состояния, национальности, вероисповедания.

http://www.systemaryabko.ru/

Also, from the summer camp, Konstantine said that the point of systema is not that it is Russian, but that it is correct.

[milosmalic]

I cannot object anything you quoted. Nevertheless all three of them are Russian, right :-)? As I wrote before, everything I talk about is my own feeling, opinion, result of opservation - call it what ever you want. There is a difference and I see it. Where, how and why I obviously can't explain.

But pay attention - in the text you quoted there is "train" not "master". I never said that all those categories cannot train, I didn't say somebody from those categories cannot grow to be a master. I only said that it is more difficult to comprehend and incoorporate some parts blah blah blah.


Do you work out with Sasha from Vald's?Yes I do. You should tell on him. Look what kind of rebel he is cherishing :-)

[jellyman]

Yes I do

In my many personal conversations with him, he tells me he is existentialist and anarchist, not ROC.

How do you feel, having 2nd-rate instructor? ;)

Anyway, it does not matter. No ranks, no ego. My son at 4 is already showing aptitude for grab-escapes, and can lock adults (although he does not know what it is). I find your assertion about other cultures, including ones you know nothing of or maybe never even heard of, to be evidence of iof a sort of ignorance which sadly, like courage, honesty, grit, and love, is also a pan-cultural component of the human condition. You know not who I am, or how I was raised, yet you judge anyway.

Ah well, time will tell.

[RachelK]

You seem to have no shortage of words, Milosmalic, despite your statement to the contrary. Jellyman teaches his young son Systema, and that's what I'd call having Systema in the bloodline: nurture, not nature. Like the Cossacks. But they are probably at a disadvantage with Systema, being descended from serfs, with their principles of collectiveness and establishing identity through a way of life rather than ethnicity.
I do have a shortage of words--I hardly know what to say. But I owe you an apology, I thought Serbia was a region of Russian, not an independent country. I am very ignorant about geography. I also thought, based on your authoratitive remarks, that you are close to the sources of Systema. Perhaps you are not. I don't know. It's time for me to depart from this thread, it's too disheartening, and I have nothing of value to add to it.
I am sorry there's a language barrier. Maybe one day we our paths will cross and you can explain it better in person, until then, I'll remain without a clue.
Rachel

[mscroggins]

Milosmailc hasn't said anything earthshattering, or even the least bit controversial. His belief is that sharing some cultural background with systema helps prepare you for a few things along the way, and gives you a head start on the learning curve. To me, that seems like a reasonable assumption.

But, let us assume even worse, that some students start with a mile long headstart. Is that going to stop you from training?

Another persons progress has nothing to do with yours. If you can't shrug off that little blow to your ego, then you are already in a hole.

In my opinion, the real advantage is gained by learning to be spontaneous and free of preconceived notions (including that a head start gives long term advantage). All the best Systemists I have run across (not really that many) have been as unafraid and full of life as a Tolstoy character.

Tolstoy loved the peasantry and rural life, perhaps rural life is the real advantage.

[NYCRonin]

This thread has been interesting....for a number of reasons.
It even spread to another forum briefly.

For me, one thing that was interesting was that it reminded me so much of similar conversations from 30 years ago. When in other arts, there were a few that claimed "A non-????? could NEVER master the depths of ????? because they were not born ????". A statement that the 'head guys' never made, but was always made by the relatively young/middle level members. Thankfully, the head guys of those arts saw deeper into the commonality of ALL students that came to learn from them....and more importantly, the power and truth of the art they offered. 30 years later, time has proven them correct, not the ones trying to 'prove' (to themselves, actually) that ?????birth was a requirement.

As stated earlier re: all 'this' and Systema -- a certain advantage goes along with speaking a language and sharing culture with MR and VV - that is easy to see. We could go even further, and state an even greater advantage goes to a student that lives next to Ryabco's school or down the block from Club Vlad. An even greater one would have to go to Mr's or VV's children.
Still, it is nurture and not nature.

To think that there are 'secrets' ONLY shared with those of slavic birth, is to me; something almost insulting to the masters mentioned - they have shown me nothing but an open book....and in conversation with Vlad, he has never been anything but truthful.

As I re-read the thread - I sum 'this' up --
Systema is far to special to not see it as a 'gift to humanity'.
AND - anyone who ever will be regarded as a full 'master' of this -- will have to be an EXCEPTIONAL individual. Regardless of bloodline.
Oh, it would be easier (abit) if one was a ROC Muscovite, wealthy enough to train without any other concern.
BUT - mark my words, right NOW - there are those who are on the path that will produce the next 'worldwide' generation of masters -- as this is the evolution of truth shared openly...as MR and VV do. And a few of those are from locations and bloodlines that are not theirs.

Hmmm, at 50 - I might even live long enough to meet such exceptional individuals. Maybe....doubtful, but maybe.
Ultimately, it does not matter if I do -- or if there ever is a non-Russian master of this. What we have done in discussion, was for me; a memory from my past.
An exercise in 'theory' and debate.
We went from the starting point of the thread and went into another direction...interesting discussion -- but mearly that...ofr time alone will tell about the last name of the next generations of masters.
I does not matter, to me.

VV and MR, and a couple of others I have met or trained with -- have given me an open book - actually, an encyclopedia, of "Systema - The System of personal growth, self protection and health". I will never finish it! I dont care if I do! In fact, I am glad it is so extensive -- for Systema is a 'work in progress' -- even the masters are still the 'student'.

Just 'do the work' -- and focus on your own understanding and growth.
THAT is all thats really important, is it not?

As to the rest, time and history will decide...not us.

[milosmalic]

How do you feel, having 2nd-rate instructor? ;)What does this mean?

You know not who I am, or how I was raised, yet you judge anyway.No I don't know who you are, meaning I don't know you personally and I never read your resume or so. But where did you get an idea that I judge? What did I judge? I told you my oppinion, that is what I somehow feel. I also wrote that I could accept not being right. As you say "...time will tell". If time tells me I was wrong I will countinue sharing that other newly discovered feeling.

Why do you get this so personal. Don't tell me that you are all obsessed to become systema masters and now I poked your eye?

[jellyman]

What does this mean?

It means, if you must be slavic and ROC to be a top-notch systema person, then Sasha falls short on one count. He cannot be top-notch.


Judgement?

It sounds like you are saying non-slav, non-ROC cannot go as far as slav ROC.

Which implies one is inherently better, one is inherently worse. Which is a judgement. You are evaluating someone's potential in some area without knowing him/her or even what they can do.

I don't take it personally. Like I said, this is a very common thing among people. I remember a time when I used to think that if you weren't Jamaican, you couldn't understand reggae. I was very young at the time. Now I know better. I have met many non-jamaicans who understand reggae very well. Well enough to make it to the hall of fame. Well enough to convince other Jamaicans they are Jamaican.


Don't tell me that you are all obsessed to become systema masters and now I poked your eye

If you ask Ryabko, he will not say he is a master. Others call him that, but he says he is not. He just does his best. It is all anyone can do.

Part of my 'soul' if you will is to never let anyone place arbitrary limitations on me. It is something I have been told since I was very little, as many times in my life people have looked at me and said, 'Oh, you cannot be very good at math' or 'Are you sure you want to take physics, maybe shop wuold be better for you.' or even 'Buy something or get out, I don't want you stealing.' without looking at my actual transcripts, or knowing who I am.

So when you say to me, jellyman, by the fact you are not slav and not ROC, you will never go as far as slav ROC, it is like you look at me and say I cannot do maths. Automatically (from my upbringing) I feel as if you would restrict me, stifle my aspirations, place limits upon me.

I am not sure if you can understand - it is like me saying 'You are slav and ROC, so therefor you will never be a master at cricket, only Anglican people from commonwealth countries can be true cricket masters.'

[MattW]

Jellyman, its when people put those types of limitations on me that I strive even more. The limitations somehow remain present in my mind, and I start to believe them... but then I get this quick "flash," remembering that someone else said it. Not me. It then becomes apart of my "quest" to shatter those limitations and grow beyond all expectations. I've always found those limits as a great addition to my motivation.

So now that it remains, if you tell me I cannot be a master (even though I agree that the term master may not be suitable, as we can only do our best) because I am not Slavic-born, I will try harder. I will not be disheartened. All I can do is try even more and prove to myself that I can be free, a good expression that I've heard of Vlad using.

[SonnyPuzikas]

:-partyon: Allrighteethen!!!
Why is it that someones opinion, free of agenda (unlike tichoks) is instantly labeled as something else? Nationalistic, racist, elitist... I dissagree with number of opinions expressed by Milos, but I don't see it as something more than his opinion- not meant to insult, alienate or marginalize Systema practitioners of non Slavic heritage.
As for tichok... I'll be polite- s kakoy celyu etu chush talkayesh?
Connection and role of ROC in Systema... I think that missunderstanding is in where ROC influences ones understanding of things- in Systema as a combat art, or in Systema, that is much more than that. ROC can help individual to understand his place and control many things that have enormous negative effect in life in general. The way we live manifests itself very clearly in the way we fight.
Has anybody talked to, as Rob likes to call them MVP's from Systema instructors of non Slavic heritage, about their understanding and role that concepts of ROC had in their path? Scott C, Jim K, Emmanuel, Martin and few others come to mind. Some would be surprised to hear few things these "MVP's" have to say about the topic.
Ilya- since when you know and own absolute, undisputable truth about such matters? What do you know what these "martial art instructors" are to those that could have much more experience, knowledge and wisdom than yourself? :idunno:
Party on... :-partyon:

[WillFightForBeer]

I was really, honestly, going to avoid this topic out of my strong feelings for the subject-matter, but Sonny..........just had to address me.
Many have more knowledge and wisdom than me, but few have my vantage point on the situation. I can see what is happening as a whole, not as the little chaotic skirmishes that most would see.
This subject is ridiculous, many opinions here, possibly my own included, are ridiculous. It's just not worth my time. My youth is fleeting, and to waste it arguing with you guys is not at the top of my to-do list. Sorry, that's just how I feel.

-Ilya

[WillFightForBeer]

Oh, and I'd just like to add:
I just came back from 2 hours of rolling around on the cold, hard gravel outside and the wet grass in the dark. It was uncomfortable, miserable, painful, and I loved every second of it.
And if there's anyone who can learn what I am learning without the work I am putting into it, then kudos to them, but in the end, through MY hard work, I will be better.
Is that ego? You decide for yourself. I'd say that it would be ego to say "Because of my genetics I am naturally superior to you".
Just my opinion, remember, there are those with "purer" genes who obviously have more qualified opinions, right Sonny?

-Ilya

[Arthur]

Well this has turned into quite an "interesting" thread. It reminds me of a story from my real life.

Man years ago when I was doing another art, I use to go out every Wednesday after class with my teacher and two classmates (sometimes others would come as well). Every Wednesday I would watch my teacher and this one other fellow (let's call him Linus), have discussions that would turn into long winded and sometimes heated disagreements.

Myself and the fourth regular at this event (let's call him Shroeder) would sit and watch and listen... and be amazed that they were arguing so thoroughly over something that they were essentially on the same side. It turns out that Linus and the teacher had very different styles of communicating, and would invariably end up taking the same position but somehow finding a way to word it, that the other thought they were in conflict. Once they established the basic "conflict of agreement" they could go on arguing for sometime.

Eventually Shroeder and I would tire of the amusement, interject and then restate their positions in different language. Teacher and Linus would realize they were in agreement, smile and we could pay the bill and go home.

This thread reminds me of those evenings. There a lot of people posting in this thread that I know personally or through long time internet correspondence. I've been reading and listening to the nuance in their manner for years, and I can tell when there is sarcasm, humor, etc. It seems however that such nuance is being lost on many of the participants because they aren't as familiar with each others manner.

Might I suggest that IMO, 80-90% of the insult, negativity, etc. That has been perceived by people, is a result of misunderstanding the intent of the person being read. I think most all of you agree far more than you realize you do.

Arthur
PS MattW don't you know that people from the Cape can never learn Systema, you should just give up now :wink2:
PPS FWIW, I generally find that using colloquialisms, sarcasm and other pieces of subtle and nuanced speech is more of a problem than a help when attempting to communicate across nations, languages and cultures.

[milosmalic]

I am not Slavic-born, I will try harder. I will not be disheartened.At the end, I did something positive with my empty words. I will be glad if you do that.

But watch for that WISH, it might become progress killer. One of the important things I often hear/read about Systema is that it should occupy ones attention during the classes and in combat.. but after the class we shouldn't be cooking it in our heads too much, we should just live our lives, love our loved ones, eat favourite food and fight for a beer. :-)

Until the next class

[milosmalic]

It means, if you must be slavic and ROC to be a top-notch systema person, then Sasha falls short on one count. He cannot be top-notch.
I hate talking about other people. But since I will spit out only few facts and since they are nothing but the thuth I am sure that he will not object.

- Try to have this personal conversation with him again when he comes back to TO, but this time all the way
- Avatar I am using is designed after his instructions. It is a sign ouf our school. Wolf on the warrior shield and everything is UNDER the OC cross. Wolf is a totem animal of us, sourthern slavs. All things related to warrior shield as a symbol are in our blood and are important for us. But, everything is channeled through ... existentialism and anarchism? :-) look at the sign for few minutes and think again.
- Last night after the class he asked us if we want to go with him to mountain next weekend since there will be series of lessons in organization of OC youth
- His phone is off on sunday morning (liturgy time)


Anyhow, since I know almost nothing about existentialism and anarchism this might be it?

[NYCRonin]

And the thread keeps spinning!

Lets see....Hmmm, Our MVP Sonny P. asked the assembled if any have asked about ROC and its influence on their thinking, life - and even their expressed combative movement. I have discussed this, to a greater or lesser degree, with some mentioned...and the masters VV and to a very small extent with MR himself ( and that was because MR 'time' with him has been so limited...and I have so much more basic to learn from him, when together).

All discussion was very educational and satisfying....and the deeper discussions found that there were many paralells between ROC and other 'beliefs' that I am abit more familiar with, and many differences as well. These shared words ADDED to my life - and never detracted. TRUTH is TRUTH - as I am known to say, to the point of nauseum.

And the wolf. Fascinating creatures. I have worn a ring for over a decade, that has a wolf prominent as its center, a handmade 'gift' from a Native American shaman of the Shinnecok tribe.When in Moscow in 2001, I also curiously received a military patch from a group known as 'The Flying Wolves'...and I still consider that what a good friend in Seattle, Washington; would call a 'wink from God'. I must admit also, I find the mentioned avatar an inspired piece of design, I like it, alot.

Just two comments from the sidelines, lets all keep it respectful...where respect is given, it should be received. Let 'The Golden Rule', apply.

Ya know - that 'Rule' exists in many languages/cultures/religions/beliefs -- but the meaning and its inspiration, remains the same.
I am interested in where this thread weaves next.

[jellyman]

Why is it that someones opinion, free of agenda (unlike tichoks) is instantly labeled as something else?

Not that I remember throwing those words around Sonny (in fact, I avoided using them like the plague), and maybe you weren't speaking to me when you said that, but have you ever looked them up to see what they actually mean?

In a class full of Slavs, the notion of Slavic superiority is moot. Everyone's a Slav, so they're all in the same boat.

BUT if it's a mixed class like what can happen in North America or Western Europe, the situation can easily arise that one person, feeling he is "superior", will not allow himself to be "beaten" by a "meer" foreigner - if he is struck in slow play, he will go faster, if he is thrown, he will try to use strength, things escalate, and next thing it's a fight. I have seen this happen, among many types of people, and it is my fondest hope that in fact it is nothing personal, they "just" hate to be "beat" be anyone, their ego won't allow it until they are shown their ego has no effect on the outcome. However, if it's fueled by ethnocentric pride, it's an extra problem - it means that that person may always be a problem for non-slav to train with, because the ego drives him to cheat. How someone can think that simply being a Slav makes you better than someone, yet have no ego attached to that notion, is something I can't get my head around. Maybe others can explain how this can be.

As for Vlad's non-slav non-ROC top guys, like Scott etc. well, really, in my mind that pretty much settles the whole arguement.

One last little thing:

When I went to Moscow in 2000, I got to work out with a variety of MR's students. Many were more skilled and taught me a lot without reservation, so that i saw my own skill increase and acquired new skills. In a couple cases, I found myself being the teacer. In one particular case, I found a fellow very much in tune with me, and we spent a lot of time sparring, fast, slow, whatever, for hours, after the classes were over, and other people were drinking. There were no thoughts of pride, no egos, no score-keeping, no words, there was just the flow interspersed with an exchange of occasional mischevous grins and the odd laugh as we shared inside jokes through motion - we had no common spoken language, bt we communicated anyway. To me, that is systema; a universal language that any human can understand.

[Sniper]

I am sorry, this is like a terrible badmitten game and I've lost score. There is the proposistion that learning a martial art of a prticular country and mastering it is contingent upon being a memeber of that martial arts countrys population, its blood line?:erg: Does the System have a blood test for rank advancement?I would think language over bloodline would add to ones understanding to the study of anything.

Religion and martial art training? This is a little more intersting inquiry. Not being a member of a particular franchise, I don't know that I myself will be able to contribute to that discussion but, let's not skirt it. How does religion play in ones martial art training? I suspect that the more one adheres to ones religion, things like pride, ego, selfishness and such diminish and that is good for the person and society as a whole. If someone has had a conversation with the masters perhaps their insights to you may be shared with us all? It doesn't do much good to tell us that truth is truth without telling us what that truth is. If you think ths topic is ridiculous, why bother indeed?:nuke:

[milosmalic]

I suspect that the more one adheres to ones religion, things like pride, ego, selfishness and such diminish and that is good for the person and society as a whole.If you mean 'I suspect' in positive way, like 'I think' or 'it might be' then you said with this sentence EXACTLY what I ment. Thank you for the missing formulation.


Now I am left only with two "stinky" statements to explain. One down three to go.

Let me try that thing about the blood line. It is not related to genetic predispositions or something. Again, don't look at it in pragmatic and generalistic way. By speaking of blood I ment remembering your ancesstors, where they fought and how did they die. How did they behave. Sistema as a whole is very similar to Slavic culture. Both old pagan and OC. You must admit that if your grand-grandpa, and your grandpa died in a tranch fighting with empty carabine with bayonett, and that their ancestors were in all major battles with swords and spears, and if they were dreseed like http://www.systemaryabko.ru/images/richerd.jpg - you most probably would have special feeling and connection to systema. It might be easier for you to accept some Systema things that might be NEW to the person from Malasya for example. Nothing more than that.

[jellyman]

It might be easier for you to accept some Systema things that might be NEW to the person from Malasya for example. Nothing more than that.

Fair enough, then.

[Sniper]

Many ancestors of many cultres blood has been spilled in battles that echoes in the halls of history, maybe this is why there is such familiarity with many of the movements in Russian Marital Arts?

Maybe it is not so much that Russian Marital Arts are "different" as they are presented differently (less structrue, less formal, more freedom)?

:asian:

[Jay Bell]

I think the baseline here is Systema, today, is geared towards unlocking human potential, not solely unlocking Russian human potential. Best cheeseburger I ever had was made from Japanese beef. Go figure.

[WillFightForBeer]

Methinks that a lot of one-time or new posters in this thread are indeed the same person, and one we least expect at that. Perhaps the moderator would be so kind as to do another IP check?

-Ilya

[milosmalic]

I am always interested in results of such a hunt :-)

[Sniper]

WFB, is there an ongoing problem with single multi posters?

If I sound like someone else on this forum, by all means, let me know about it. If I have posted something which hasn't added to, clarified or questioned something here, then I think there is a problem. :erg: