The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo

[BallistikMike]

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute :)

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle. :)

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

[Karazenpo]

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute :)

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle. :)

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

Hi Mike, this a question I believe Sigung John Bishop can answer. Hopefully, he'll see your post, if not, e-mail him privately. Professor Forbach is his instructor and I don't think there is anything about Kajukenbo history that John doesn't have knowledge of.

[John Bishop]

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)
I spent last saturday visiting with Sijo Emperado, and we talked a little bit about John Leoning and Sonny Gascon. I was under the impression that Gascon was a first generation Kajukenbo black belt, because his name is listed under Sijo Emperado on our family tree. Sijo told me that Gascon was in fact John Leoning's student, but that he came under Sijo Emperado after Leoning died in 77. This tells us that there was possibly a relationship between Karazempo and Kajukenbo at that time.
Sijo told me that Leoning was one of his early students from the Palama Settlement school.
When Marino Tiwanak started his school at the CHA-3 building, Sijo told Tiwanak he could pick 5 senior students to be his assistants. John Leoning was one of those students. Leoning only stayed at the CHA-3 school for two months before coming back to Palama.
As to early (50-60s) Kajukenbo techniques, there were originally 8 Palama Sets (Pinions), and most of the other techniques, "punch counters", "grab arts", "knife counters", "club counters", etc. were in place.
Important thing to remember, many of the early Kajukenbo teachers were not black belts when they started their schools. They primarily came to the mainland to find employment. (But like when Gracie Jiujutsu came here in the 90's, people were hungry for the knowledge, so color belts started teaching.)
John Leoning was not yet a black belt when he first started teaching in California. Unlike now days where everyone has a video camera, people on the mainland in the 50-60's could not keep up with the developments occuring in Hawaii. So they supplemented their training with what was availiable in their areas.
As to the techniques that John Leoning and Sonny Gascon taught, they are somewhat differant. (My first Kajukenbo instructor was from the Leoning lineage, and I know some of Leoning's first black belts, so I've seen their techniques.) I've never seen Karazempo techniques, so I can't say whether there are slightly or vastly differant then Leoning's.
The best example of the "Original Method" is in the 2 video series produced by GM Gary Forbach. The "Panther Productions" series,and the "World Kajukenbo Organization" series. All the taping of the WKO series were personally supervised by Sijo Emperado to make sure they were "original teachings".



Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?
I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.

[BallistikMike]

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?


Thank you for the information :)

[John Bishop]

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?


Thank you for the information :)
Panther Production was bought by Century Martial Arts Supply a few years ago. The bulk of their 600+ titles were put into archives. From what I was told, they can be purchesed in lots of 20 from Century. Or, you can find a few at differant suppliers that may still have them in stock. They are also sold on Ebay occassionally.
We are not marketing the WKO tapes commercially at this time. But if you are interested in them, email me for more information.

[GAB]

Hi,

With all due respect, not wanting to stir but only to clairfy.
I believe Sifu John Leoning was a Black belt when he came to the mainland, I believe he was a black belt before he was with Sijo Emperado.
I have read numerous accounts about lineage, the most recent was from a school on the East coast.

Maybe Matt could add something to this?

I have been under the impression when Sifu John stepped onto the Mainland he was the Senior black belt here. I believe he was a Black belt under Master Chow,(prior to EP) and there is nothing I have found to change my mind.

I believe that was one of the reasons Sijo Sonny Gascon changed his whole agenda and the reason Sifu John did not.

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

Hi,

With all due respect, not wanting to stir but only to clairfy.
I believe Sifu John Leoning was a Black belt when he came to the mainland, I believe he was a black belt before he was with Sijo Emperado.
I have read numerous accounts about lineage, the most recent was from a school on the East coast.

Maybe Matt could add something to this?

I have been under the impression when Sifu John stepped onto the Mainland he was the Senior black belt here. I believe he was a Black belt under Master Chow,(prior to EP) and there is nothing I have found to change my mind.

I believe that was one of the reasons Sijo Sonny Gascon changed his whole agenda and the reason Sifu John did not.

Regards, Gary
My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.

[GAB]

My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.
John Bishop,

I don't have the sources, I have what I said in my post.

If what you say is correct then so be it.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

Gary (GAB):

You claim to have been one of John Leonings white belts back in the 60's, like that gives you some type of expertise in Kenpo history.
I personally know some of John Leonings students who were with him in 1958, and onward. I know his son John Leoning Jr.
So before I start to believe you were even around his school, I'll ask you some simple questions about it.

1. Who was the actor who funded John's first school in Hollywood? In fact the school carried his name, as did the school patch.

2. Who were John's black belts from 1959 to 1963?

3. Which black belt broke away from him in 1962, and took several of the students with him?

Pretty simple questions for someone who was supposedly there.

[The Kai]

Wow

An actor that funded the school, how cool! I wonder if he ever stopped by, Man that would make for some cool stories. Put his name on the patch? Was'nt that a little awkward?


Did that Black belt who left ever go anywhere?

I'm sure there are some stories, good and bad,I can't wait to hear them -Luv the history
Thanks
Todd

[kelly keltner]

I find these to be good trivial pursute(sp) type questions, but if gary was there for a short period of time before going into the LAPD or marine corps then he may not have the answers to those questions nor would I find it reasonable for him to have to. I however do have a fascination with the timeline that he put together. To which I can only come up with one solution. We need the dates that Sifu Leonning(sp) and Mr. Gascon were promoted. John or Joe or anybody could come up with that info it would be appreciated. Please lets stop with the before I believe you were there stuff and try to steer back on to a meaningful discourse. Although I must admit I'd like to know the answers to those questions myself.

kelly

[GAB]

Hi John,

I will say this, then please, answer the age question.

We have gotten on the wrong side, because I disagree with a few of the things that have been said, about good Martial Art Practioners that I personally know and some I don't like, but, apparently my opinions get me bounced and others can have theirs and still remain...Respectfully submitted.

I also trained with Robert Koga, (your friend) I was his favorite demo guy (yes John I had an attitude).
Gary Payne and others that were in the academy, and at Foothill station when I worked out in the weight room and the mats we had set up, all knew this.

John, I have a great reputation, I will send you references if you want to start this...Just call up Metro desk and ask for Sgt P. W. He is about the oldest living or longest on the Job right now, he was my Sgt in Foothill and Metro. I just talked to him about 2 months ago. He will remember me...LOL

I will add this, when I was in the Academy, I was the only man to receive a
commendation. (I saved an over weight Detective who if I had not been there would have been toast, but then that is why I was there.) Foothill Division 1967 while on Christmas leave from the academy and working in the streets for the first time

Yes, John I was one of Sifu John Leoning's white belts. :whip:

If I had not had the prior training, USMC and the fighting capabilities I have always had, I would have been in awe when I went there.
But it was the other way around and the Blue or Green I can't remember.
He was a small man, I told him, I am here to learn, and hone up, but I could take him out, he agreed. We had mutual respect. (I was getting Private lessons).

As far as those specific questions go I could try to guess. I was a white belt and was not in the know at the time.

I will ask, if he had black belts in 1959, who promoted them?

I went into the USMC 1959 and got out in 1963, got back to the North Hollywood area just prior to 65. Was a Sifu John Leoning student prior to my entry into Police work. I did see Dennis Weaver in the dojo.
I was being trained by lesser belts, my main memory was the Kung Fu influence and how often he was training in that. I do not believe he ever trained me personally. But I did get to talk to him (or I should say listen while others were talking).

When I was there I was under the impression a lot of what we were doing was Okinawan and Shotokan. He had a special class for Kung Fu, (which I also took).
He actually called (Kajukenbo) Hawaiian Karate street fighting, most of the time.
Must be one of the reasons Bill Ryusaki took the name when he left plus he does not even show John as his true instructor, is that honest?

How about I guess? James Coburn???Robert Conrad???Dennis Weaver??

Sonny Gascon, Bill Ryusaki, Dave Kamalani, Julio Blacquera, Walter Godin.

I don't personally remember this. I am just playing at it. Because you want to go there rather then answer my thoughts. Or deal with the apparent flaw that I have observed.:asian:

I believe in the 9 Basic ways of Kenpo John, the first is "Do not think dishonestly". I know you probably know this, but it is in "A book of 5 Rings" I personally like Sphere over Ring. But what do I know?

We were not talking about me or you or any one on this board.

I am just showing you a time line John. When things don't match up in an investigation you have to question it, right?

Since you have personally called me out, so be it.

Please don't feel insecure about me. I am not claiming to be a 8th, 9th or 10th Dan or even a Black belt ( except on MT).

I have had many offers to go there but I have not nor will I. Besides John I have nothing to gain by it, I am who I am. No Belt or lack of will change that.

I am 63 this month John, every one knows me around this area. Call my friend and Sensei Pat Kelly or a new Sensei I just started to go to also, Tim Evans. They are in the Elk Grove phone book.

I have nothing to prove John, I have been there and done that, end of this comment for now. Could we get back to the time line?? Thank you.

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

Answer#1

Leoning's school in No. Hollywood, Ca. was funded by the Hawaiian actor Poncy Ponce. Pictured is Poncy Ponce, and the actress Connie Stevens.
Poncy Ponce, Connie Stevens, and Robert Conrad starred in the 50's-60's TV detective show "Hawaiian Eye".
Robert Conrad, who was a student of John Leoning, was to use his Kajukenbo skills later in his next T.V. series; "Wild Wild West".
In fact when Conrad (as James West) fought actor Don Stroud, it was the first time two Kajukenbo stylists fought each other in a TV show or movie. Don Stroud had been a student of Sijo Emperado's at the Palama Settlement school.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid148/pc8dfa196680a6a7c32d7e0d104781a76/f609a4da.jpg

Answer#2
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones.

Answer #3

Bill Ryusaki broke away around 62-63 and took several of the students with him. His most famous student is Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. And yes he claims John Leoning as his Kajukenbo/Kenpo teacher.

[John Bishop]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary
What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.

[Karazenpo]

Personally, I gave up a long time ago of looking for exact dates in the rankings of the old seniors and for that matter, dates for anything back then. I found two dates of when Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan, two dates on when Mitose came to Hawaii and 3 ages when he went to Japan to study-3, 4 and 5. Two dates when Sifu Leoning brought Kajukenbo to the mainland (1957, 1958). Charles Fisher has Sifu Leoning listed as the highest ranking Kajukenbo black belt on the mainland in 1960-8th dan, check out his website. We finally get a date on Chow's black belt years ago only to find out it was not signed by Mitose which we were led to believe for so many years but by Professor Thomas Young of which I've heard several different reasons why that was done. Four dates listed for New England's first kenpo school- 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. At least two dates listed for the founding of Gm. Fred Villari's organization-1968, 1971. Three dates recorded for Boddhidharma hooking up at the Shaolin Temple according to various sources. Several dates of when Kajukenbo added it's various arts from 1947 to the 60's, take your pick, several years of which Mr. Parker started his revisions of the Mitose/Chow Kenpo that span the late 50's to the early 60's and the beat goes on..........

As far as black belts go, I now sincerely believe this black belt thing of legitimate rank and so forth is a product of the newer generations of kenpo practitioners. Let's take a look at the old and start with Funokoshi. Here's an excerpt I used on this forum on another topic:

"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."

So, now we got the 'father of all black belts', the first karate black belt in history and that's how he got it, not to mention a godan renshi ranking! It's really funny because his student, Konishi, mentioned above, only held ranking in a Japanese sword art and back then the 'Kai' only hosted the Japanese jiu jitsu, aikido and sword related arts but has since expanded. Later, the Butoku-kai got the reputation of being a 'paper mill'. There is controversary on when the late Mr. Parker received his shodan from Professor Chow and the number one person who started all this Hawaiian derived kenpo thing, James M. Mitose was never awarded a black belt period. This is not at all meant to knock anyone but to make a point. The point being, back then, black belt was very subjective with very loose requirements. I also believe most back then, if not all, weren't even tested for the rank. Curriculums, as we know, were very limited with an emphasis on drilling the basics, self defense techniques which could be expanded upon by borrowing from the basics and just one form to start the whole thing, Naihanchi. I would venture to say many donned the belt prior to any 'official' promotion by their instructor when they began to publically propagate the art and received the ranking later on down the road when they proved themselves worthy. No one ever complained about it back then or now, so perhaps that was an accepted method of how it was done in that time. This happened all over, including Okinawa which took it a step further with the 'airport promotions'. In those early years in Hawaii and then in kenpo's introduction to the mainland it was like this saying I picked up from KenpoJoe Rebelo, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind." If they weren't black belts in kenpo with only three karate schools in all of southern California, two of which were kenpo, then who were?, lol. As the 70's approached in my area (New England) there was all this talk about self promotion and legitimate rank because of Fred Villari going from a nidan under Nick Cerio to a 10th in record time, surpassing, not only his instructor but his instructor's instructor. The only problem was some of the most vehement Villari critics also did their own rank thing, only it was anywhere from three to six thousand miles away. Fred Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard.......trained in Rhode Island, lived and worked in Massachusetts and set up his first schools in New England. So, what I try to do in my research is to just show an accurate lineage of our systems, which at times, can also be difficult but it gives an idea of who and where we came from and what went into our art.
__________________

[GAB]

Hi Joe,

Good post, thanks.

The part about the "one eyed man in the land of the blind" is right on.

GM Estalilla in Kabaroan, use's that also, for all the various arts that came out of the FMA. Lot more Islands then Hawaii and as much controversy x 50, I have found.

No matter it is still interesting...I still like the time line.

I believe it says more then any other way I could have put it, I am sick of the big stir and getting bounced.

:idunno: Guess I am a slow learner.
Like a bookie I knew when I told him that.
He said, its what I have been doing my whole life, besides it dos'nt hurt anyone. I have said it before and I will say it here, I have been accused of ant hill kicking (my mother).

Joe Friday was the man. Just looking for the facts.

I have had my toes stepped on more then once in the dojo does not stop me from going barefoot.

I see the new breed likes a footcover (especially in the winter) Hanshi won't let you go there, so it must be right.%-}

Regards, Gary

[James Kovacich]

I think Joe touched on the "reality" of just about all black belt lineage. Even the "best" have "skeletins." In my early years I was Kajukenbo and thats why I "peep" in here. I trained in Karate, Judo / Jujutsu and Kobudo under my brother-in-law and we would have long talks.

But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was abastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be.

The reality was that his instructor the late Tarow Hayashi (RIP)
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm
was the founder of a of couple of systems. Bujutsu Taiho in the around 1960 and Kumiuchi in the 1970's were his creations.

So one mans "truth" is can be another mans B.S.

[Karazenpo]

akja stated: "But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was a bastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be."


Yes, Jim, we used to hear the same thing, especially form Shotokan stylists, that their art is pure. What a bunch of b.s. being that Shotokan is a blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu and then altered to fit the perspective of the Japanese people......... sounds like a 'bastard art' to me!, lol.

[kelly keltner]

So the answer to my last post is no


kelly

[BallistikMike]

Hello all,

Once again a great thread with great information in it. I didnt mean for any conflict to happen on when and who received a black belt where and when...lol. Very good info though.

What I wanted to do was see was the original founders of Kajukenbo's curriculum and where it went from there. I am in the process of cross referencing all the basic techniques from the various Kajukenbo videos on the market, the various Shaolin Kempo videos on the market, the written word here on the forum and in private emails, web pages and anything else I can get my grubby hands on for information purpose only.

I would like to see the root of what everyone out there is teaching and from the common elements of ALL you can get a pretty good idea of what the core is.

I have a Kajukenbo guy about 45 minutes from me, but he claims to teach more towards the tournament and competition side. So I am not sure how the techniques have been altered to fit the tournament scene now.

I would like to say this though. It is making it a bit difficult because so many people want to put egos in the mix and change and rename things that are just basic techniques. Forms are changed, recreated or thrown out. Why?

I say its all marketing. It is good for business. Now I may get slammed here and thats fine, but darn if it doesnt tick me off to see so many people "create" systems that are exactly the same and rename or number every darn technique. If you train for years and become good at your art, good enough to teach it then by all means teach what you know, but blast stop the lies. Thats directed to the general MA's not anyone specific...NOT ANYONE SPECIFIC. I said it twice. lol.

Im thinking this summer to take a trip with the family to the east coast and stop in on some of you "old timers" to show what I have found and get some important info. Then the following summer go to the west coast and do the same. Those that will share that is :) Then throw the whole mess on the internet and have it all be blasted LOL.

Anyway you people here make this forum a daily stop for me so thankyou again.

Mike

[GAB]

Hi All,

The word is illegitimate, many words that should be striken from our language (B) word.

The thing is, it is whose OX is getting gored. After 10-20 years it is no longer that considering it is still around. The thing that comes to mind is what drives these persons away from the original art.

Listen and observe. Money, Capitalism, that is the way the Government wants it, Small Business is the gas that runs the country. Free Enterprise, the new mouse trap. Look what the Government had to do to ATT just to name one, now we are going backwards, Walmart comes to mind...

Welcome to the freeworld be happy you are here. Can you imagine what would have happened to Hawaii if it had gone the other way (WW11).

Tomorrow is December the 7th. Don't forget that date, for all you who are to young to even realize what was going on, one fell swoop and thousands were history and that was just the start. Our country had to tighten its belt to get through that one...

Some went to war others did not (people) same o same o...History is being rewritten by the ones that are still around.

We need more Historians. The word Houlie sp? (still) comes to mind. Funny what you remember.

HASP has a special meaning to me, Hawaii circa 1960.

USMC. Semper FI.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

???? What the hell???

[monkey-a-go-go]

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.

[Karazenpo]

Hello all,

Once again a great thread with great information in it. I didnt mean for any conflict to happen on when and who received a black belt where and when...lol. Very good info though.

What I wanted to do was see was the original founders of Kajukenbo's curriculum and where it went from there. I am in the process of cross referencing all the basic techniques from the various Kajukenbo videos on the market, the various Shaolin Kempo videos on the market, the written word here on the forum and in private emails, web pages and anything else I can get my grubby hands on for information purpose only.

I would like to see the root of what everyone out there is teaching and from the common elements of ALL you can get a pretty good idea of what the core is.

I have a Kajukenbo guy about 45 minutes from me, but he claims to teach more towards the tournament and competition side. So I am not sure how the techniques have been altered to fit the tournament scene now.

I would like to say this though. It is making it a bit difficult because so many people want to put egos in the mix and change and rename things that are just basic techniques. Forms are changed, recreated or thrown out. Why?

I say its all marketing. It is good for business. Now I may get slammed here and thats fine, but darn if it doesnt tick me off to see so many people "create" systems that are exactly the same and rename or number every darn technique. If you train for years and become good at your art, good enough to teach it then by all means teach what you know, but blast stop the lies. Thats directed to the general MA's not anyone specific...NOT ANYONE SPECIFIC. I said it twice. lol.

Im thinking this summer to take a trip with the family to the east coast and stop in on some of you "old timers" to show what I have found and get some important info. Then the following summer go to the west coast and do the same. Those that will share that is :) Then throw the whole mess on the internet and have it all be blasted LOL.

Anyway you people here make this forum a daily stop for me so thankyou again.

Mike

Mike, you make a lot of sense, I hear ya bro. Professor Joe

[DavidCC]

I tried contacting Century MA about the Panther videos. They do offer one Kajukenbo self defense video (#3) on their web site. So far no response. I will pay a "copying fee" and shipping if anyone can provide me with kajukenbo and karazenpo go shinjutsu videos. or can ftp mpg captures, for you fellow geeks out there...

I have shaolin Kempo videos I will trade for same.

[The Kai]

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.
Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
Todd

[GAB]

Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
ToddKai

When you say baby talk is that because you don't or can't understand. Because you are just being angry at me for the way it has been forever in the martial arts world. Give you one piece of puzzle then you have to assemble the rest...

That way everyone gets to come to their own conclusion. The experience or the intellect (knowledge) has to be there to deceipher through the thick or thin of it.

Explain which part of my thread you have a problem with, is it the fact that I stray from side to side or I am not coming at you in a linear sense or you don't like circle attitude. (clue all three are the same).

I understand honest. I sometimes get into the typing thing and don't really pay attention until it is up and running then I let it hang to get feedback.

I will be interested what you have to say on the red ding you give me. LOL...

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

First off you make three assumptions

1.) that you are more intelligent then me
2.) that you are enlightened
3.) That you are in the role of a teacher

How the Martial arts have been taught in the past? How, would you know.
I could spend 5 minutes trying to "decipher" your foolishness, unfortanatly it would waste my 5 minutes.
Again people with the information post thier information, state their case clearly. You Gibber and F**** Gabber on. Who appointed you mystic all seeing?
Again Please No baby talk
I am sorry if i hurt your feelings, but man _actually I'll tell you what I'll start a Thread
"all Wise Father, self appointed zen master and circular historian, GAB will now answer all "
I should shorten it to "At the Zen Feet of GAB"?

To anyone else who is on this side of lucid, I am sorry for flying off
Todd

[GAB]

Hi Kai,

That is what or how you interpret it not me, to think like that is totally wrong...

I am not any of that, now I will ask you do I answer back angry? NO.

I am not angry, you are... Reread my post Todd..

You are really off base, but then maybe I am also, but with the both of us being at the opposite end of spectrum I can see the problem.

I do appreciate your thinking that I should be placed in such honor though.
I would not to be able to fill those shoes so I will have to pass.

Take care,

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.
John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

Gary

I not angry actually, just at the end of my rope with the koan/riddle nonsense.

Honestly, start a seperate thread (suggested name Zen riddles with Gary)take your foolishness there-Please
Todd
P.S. I don't really know what a ding is....

[The Kai]

John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary
Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd

[GAB]

Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd
Todd,

It is a funny thing regarding rank. The person I am talking about is John Leoning.

The others all claim rank at a very young age. John was around all of them at the same time and age yet when he comes to America, at 31 years old he has no rank?

I was under the impression he was very good and very well ranked. He falls out with Kajukenbo and now he has no rank? Sure would like to here from Sonny Gascon.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

If you go back John Bishop gives an account and a rough timeline with John Leonning. Do you want to know if thier was a falling out-i.e. Leoning got his rank "pulled" for some infraction. Or do you think he should have been ranked higher than he was?


Todd

[Karazenpo]

*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.


BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.

CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.

SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.

THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.

SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".

SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.

SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[John Bishop]

If you go back John Bishop gives an account and a rough timeline with John Leonning. Do you want to know if thier was a falling out-i.e. Leoning got his rank "pulled" for some infraction. Or do you think he should have been ranked higher than he was?


ToddOK GAB, I'll give you the time line I was given. In 1988 I was doing some historical research for my first Kajukenbo instructor (whose lineage was from the Leoning family of Kajukenbo). This was to make a family tree, and write a black belt hand book for our future upcoming black belts.
I talked to John Leoning's first black belt, Carlos Bunda. He told me that Leoning came to the mainland in 1958. I talked to Ed Parker. He verified the date of 1958. He also told me that Leoning was a "brown belt" when he first came here. He said he know's this because he called Sijo Emperado to "check him out", (competition you know) when Leoning opened his school. And Sijo told him that Leoning was a "brown belt". Ed said that Leoning later got his "black belt". I never asked how much "later". It really didn't matter to me at the time.
Bill Ryusaki also confirmed this information.
I then talked to Alan Reyes, who is a Kajukenbo historian. He grew up in Kajukenbo and his father Aleju Reyes was Sijo Emperado "scribe". In other words he recorded for Emperado all the "techniques", "black belt promotions", and other matters important to the Kajukenbo organization.
Alan told me that Leoning, like most of the other early Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, was "not a black belt when he first arrived". He, like most of the others came here looking for jobs. When the opportunity arose to teach,they did. Like I said before, at the time he opened, there are only 2 karate schools in all of So. Calif.
It was not at all uncommon for "color belts" to teach in the 50's and 60's. Perfect example is Gracie Jujitsu in the 90's. Outside of the Gracie family, there was only 1 or 2 Gracie black belts in America. I personally know of 5 Gracie/Brazilian jujitsu schools in So. Calif. that were owned and operated by "color belts", in the 90's.
But, back to Leoning, since 1988 I've talked to many people about John, including his son. His history is discussed quite often in Kajukenbo circles, since he was the first Kajukenbo instructor to teach on the mainland. So, I have little reason to doubt the information I have. I'm sure he was a black belt by the time you encountered him in 1965. But the highest rank he ever obtained from in "Kajukenbo" from Sijo Emperado, was 5th degree.
Anyway, you can believe me or not. It dosen't matter to us in Kajukenbo what you choose to believe.

[kelly keltner]

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.


kelly

[John Bishop]

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.

kellyWow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. And when asked to clarify, he thows out statements about being in the Marine Corp or LAPD like that has anything to do with the topic. Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Wow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand....Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.

[GAB]

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.OFK, Yea Kelly has known me for more then a decade so he probably does know my way of rambling.

Joe, Thanks for the information off of Charles Fisher's site. I have had numerous contacts with the man.

John I have answered many of your questions and you have ignored many that I have asked.
I don't harp on them and I certainly am not worried about the various people shaking their head, are you in the same room while this is happening?

Thanks for the information about your contact with Edmund Parker and Bill Ryusaki, I would like to talk to John Leoning Jr. just because, no reason to try and clairify.

Several reasons I wrote and informed you of my past is because of your slights that you write at times, so I tell you so you will know these things.

Different strokes for different folks, you have to understand where I am coming from if you are an historian and you are truly trying to discover the truth and you find some discrepency like the age factor.

Lets look at that for one more time.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, GaryKai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary

[BallistikMike]

HASP - Hawaiian Armed Services Police

Googled police and HASP and 1960 and came up with that.

[BallistikMike]

Kai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary
To claim that the developers are removing the only real "master" from their lineage is a bit harsh.

People take things in different directions when they get a feel for what they want and where they are going. The men that developed Kajukenbo took what they learned and tested it on themselves and the streets of a very brutal Hawaii.

I have seen no proof of anything saying that J. Mitose was a master of anything. I have seen more proof that he was a student of a student of a student JUST LIKE US ALL!

If people are so worried about lineage and black belts and "Master" certificates go buy some of them off the web. What most of us are interested in are people here on the forums who have traded blood and sweet with these "old" timers and the great stories and lessons they have learned.

I would also like to say something about the people throwing the bombs around about being Police, ExPolice, Ex Marines, Ex Soldiers, Bouncers ... etc.

That proves absolutely nothing of what self-defense is. The private citizen is the true practitioner of self-defense.

1 - we dont have weapons (M4,M1A Tanks) or satallite to help us on the battlefield
2 - we dont have radios and the hugest gang on the streets "local LEO's" that come at our call and fireams/batons where ever we go.
3 - we dont have back up of other bouncers, friendly patrons and LEO's that show up

As a citizen we are left to are own merits to survive, essentially we are the true "solo" warrior. Granted we arent willingly going into sistuations every waking hour like the above mentioned hero's.

What is important is that I chose who is a good teacher based on ability, knowledge, sharing the knowledge and experience.

So I have my own riddle about the Kosho Ryu guys "Why is Mr. Jucknik so good at fighting, why does he hit hard. It isnt because of sitting in a cell with a prisoner, it is because of experience. Where did that experience come from?

[The Kai]

When we llok at the explosion after Mitose "retired"; lets not forget the sinificant contributions of William Chow

GAB
So you are saying that no one in your opinion deserves the rank or respect they have recieved? Whom in your book is worthy?
Todd

[GAB]

When we llok at the explosion after Mitose "retired"; lets not forget the sinificant contributions of William Chow

GAB
So you are saying that no one in your opinion deserves the rank or respect they have recieved? Whom in your book is worthy?
Todd
Todd, Do not say that, I have stated that I have great respect for them all.

It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.

I have stated that if Mitose is the spark. Willam Chow is the log that kept the fires burning. You notice he is the oldest of the group?
I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.

Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...

Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.

I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

[
It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.Did you mean inverse of the coin, or to be clear or lucid the opposite side of the coin? How is it the opposite of what we are talking about??



I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.?? Were in kajukenbo long enough to see the politics??


Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...I hear ya, I just don't know what the hell you are trying to say, believe Parker/Chow about what?


Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.
Actually i thought the question was directed towards you, but as i have stated before i think hanshi is one hell of a teacher, and a fantastic martial artist
I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.


He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn. So now you are studing Kosho yourself??

P.S. I know you don't like it whwn your posts are cut up, but the thought process was so dijointed I need to keep it clear.

He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.So there are 2 people on your list of worthy martial artists
1.) Sifu Leonnning< I think so at least
2.) Hansi Juchnik
Todd

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

Hi Todd,

We are not able to relate, I am going to let this go for now and catch it later.

For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe.
Hopefully some others have some input. Joe have you anything you can run by Sijo Sonny Gascon, maybe he can add a few things. Maybe you had better not, I don't want your relations with John Bishop to go south.

I have only had differences of opinion regarding the actual belt rankings I say John was well ranked, John Bishop said not. I said Ed Parker was not as high as he professed and others say he was.

I feel they are all good Martial Artists, we just arn't on the same page regarding rank.

Obverse is correct, reverse is what you are talking about. It was a play on words, I am saying he was higher then they are saying, please read it again.

Do I have to be running for President to follow what is happening in the politicial arena. Just look at the different Mon's that are in Kajukenbo.

I saw Hanshi today and talked, do you know what all Hanshi teach's???

Explain to me what Kosho is? How many tapes has Hanshi made? How many DVD's?
How many are in the various Martial arts? Are they all Kosho?

I do FMA at the present. How many different styles do I do in FMA?
How many are there? How many systems are out there?

I have told you many times I cross train...

Regards, Gary

[Karazenpo]

Remember guys, rank is so subjective that it's really not worth pursuing the who was a black belt and when and what degree, is this legit is that legit, what may be accepted as gold in one organization could be coal in another. Remember Mr. Parker saying: "What degree of death are you after you're dead?" Mitose started this whole kenpo/kempo thing and he had no rank. Look how and where and who was on the committee who awarded Funakoshi his renshi and technically, he's the 'father of the black belt ranking system' for karate and his 5th dan is still controversial and talked about today. Chow self promoted himself to 15th degree black belt with the title of 'Master of the Universe', no one gave him any crap over it. As long as your rank is accepted in your school, schools or organization that's all that should matter. Ed Parker was/is the head and founder of EPAK and the Ed Parker studios, there is no one higher than he in his organization, so whether he was promoted to 10th or took the 10th, I really don't have a problem with it. Fred Villari is the head and founder of Shaolin Kempo Karate and the Villari Self Defense Centers & Studios, no one is higher than he in his organization, Nick Cerio, George Pesare, Sonny Gascon, John Leoning, Adriano Emperado, Thomas Young, Ralph Castro, Al Tracy, Thomas Barros Mitose, Bruce Juchnik and the list goes on. It's all relative and subjective. Rank is primarily based on opinions and you know what they say: "Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one", LOL. Respectfully, Professor Joe

[kelly keltner]

yeh gotta agree with you about opinions.


kelly

[kelly keltner]

me knowest who it was who gave me da red

kelly

[BallistikMike]

...

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary
I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month :) lol


::: going back to lurking and learning :::

[GAB]

Hi Balistikmike,

Hanshi will even say he just didn't know any better, are you saying he did not do that or he did do that.

Regarding the numerous systems you read about the fighters and the studio guys.

Motobu was a fighter, Chow was one, looking for trouble or starting it just to test themselves against someone else.

When I was in the service it was like that, all the time, every different port. You are getting into it with other servicemen, my ship is better then yours, or recon is tougher then the sub's etc. Young and dumb.

Gunny Highway was taken from a real person, (movie heartbreak ridge) I am as sure of that as I am writing this.

Are you saying that when Hanshi changed his way's and started down a different path you were sickened?

Like a bad guy finding religion and becoming born again? I think of another movie, Unforgiven, real people real life stuff.

You are not going to hurt my feelings, so talk, just don't be rude, or call people names. I am sure it will be fine.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

Hi Balistikmike,

Never forget the Name...Martial...as in war... That is what is so interesting, it is not called sports arts, or neo martial.

War is hell don't go there if you can help it, a movie about a real war hero "To hell and back" or any of the make believe heros, it is about killing and fighting and the tough time they had when they returned to 'civil' ian life.

I think it was Aristotle who said 'it is easy to instill the fighting and killing in man, but it is very hard to remove it from him'...Paraphrased.

I believe that very much, when I was dealing with the guys who came back from the Vietnam conflict on the streets of L. A. it was very bad and sad.

The people they abused most was their so called "loved ones".

You still see it today, one of the reasons they have installed so many laws against domestic violence.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

Hanshi has 100 of tapes out (I don't know about dvds). 4/5 books. I am familiar with the arts with in the art.

What Hanshi did in the past is the past - I've heard of worse.

[kelly keltner]

I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month :) lol


::: going back to lurking and learning :::
There are many who are saddled with the moniker of martial arts master who have tested there skills in one fashion or another. You have to look at it in its context, and realize it for what it is and move on. Yes Hanshi got into a lot of fights in his youth. So did many others. Does this mean that what he teaches is invalid. I would say no in as much if I were to relate what others have supposedly done.
What about these peoples pasts
1. Rudy Turlinden
2. Morihei Ushieba
3.Florio Villabraille
4. Choki Motobu
5. an yes, James Mitose
one of these practioners was supposedly in Manchuria lopping off peoples heads in the early 20th century, but if you talk to the people that participate in his system you'd think he was god.
Another was credited with 12 kills in his native country.
still another is famous for kills with his death stick.
one was jailed for conspiracy to commit murder.
another killed a boxer.
I could go on and list many martial artist who have had their share of indiscretions or a colorful past.
So one guy getting into a few fights and then growing out of it. Then admitting that it was not a part of his life that he was proud of.
That makes you want to vomit?

Put in perspective with history its a minor transgression and nothing in comparision of the old dojo wars and the exploits of people like count Dante.

kelly

[The Kai]

Gab

"For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe"

So now you don't think Ed parker deserved his rank??
Again I am sorry about busting your chops on the Riddle/koan bull***, but I am sure everyone appreciates a little more clarity
Todd

[GAB]

Gab

"For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe"

So now you don't think Ed parker deserved his rank??
Again I am sorry about busting your chops on the Riddle/koan bull***, but I am sure everyone appreciates a little more clarity
ToddHi Todd, I believe he did after he put his many years in, I don't believe he had it in the first place.

I was there in the 60's when all the conflict was going on and I remember the stuff that was happening. I lived in North Hollywood until I was 17 then went into the service came out and continued to live there until I was 27.

It dosen't matter at this date and time about that (belt, grn, brn, blu or blk)...

I only went there because others were bad mouthing Hanshi.. Hanshi earned his rank and then he was tested by Mitose and of all the ones that went to Mitose he was given the keys.

That is the truth...As in the keys to his Kosho, go out and continue as you see fit, based on your knowledge and desire. He told Hanshi there will be people who will be nitpickers don't worry about it etc...

Hanshi did a lot of soul searching and now more then 25 years after he met the man he is still standing tall. And I might add, the Hanshi of the system...

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

GAB

So you believe that by tearing down others like Parker, Emperado and various seniors with in the Kenpo community, you will get more respect for Hanshi Juchnik?

Why do you belteve that there cannot be respect across the board? Opinions will very, but opinions are just that.

You believe in Hanshi? Than that is enough.

Ed Parker more than earned a rightfull place at the top (many times over), your nitpicking won't take anything away.

Again just my opinion
Todd

[GAB]

GAB

So you believe that by tearing down others like Parker, Emperado and various seniors with in the Kenpo community, you will get more respect for Hanshi Juchnik?

Why do you belteve that there cannot be respect across the board? Opinions will very, but opinions are just that.

You believe in Hanshi? Than that is enough.

Ed Parker more than earned a rightfull place at the top (many times over), your nitpicking won't take anything away.

Again just my opinion
Todd

Hi Todd, I think, if you live in a glass house you should not throw stones.

Regarding EPAK there are a lot of people still out on that, but my prior post covered it.

I am not nitpicking, I am stating what Chow said and what Parker said.

So I guess two wrongs don't make it right.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

Gary
What glass house?? And no riddles please
Todd

[The Kai]

Gary
Who is undecided as to Parker's contributions to the kenpo community??

As to you were there, you were what a 17 yr old yellow belt, so the seniors came and told a young beginnner "Ya know Ed Parker not really a Black Belt"?

I don't really understand the Glass House comment, unless you are still upset over not being able to hide behind your riddle and koan B.S. Again I apoligize if I hurt your feelings
todd

[GAB]

Hi Todd,

You are not hurting my feelings, and the slite's keep on coming. No problem Kai I read you like a book.:)

I answer as to what I feel appropriate and what you say is not a factor.

Glass house, is a reference to persons who are living in a glass house should not throw rocks... As if someone is not on a stable surface they should not push the subject, if it is a topic or someone in front of them.

I will give you the the first offense (throwing a punch).. But it has already been thrown numerous times in my mind and you are not going to surprise me...

If you saw the picture "the Last Samurai" (when Tom cruise is fighting, the scene he creates in his own mind) Is supposed to be the no mind concept...

Not how I percieve that concept but it is how the misreprezentation was presented. I am only using that as a reference point on this particular post.

Say What??? You seem to like to answer a question or response with a misquote. Why is that?:idunno:

I feel I am on better ground defending Hanshi's lineage than others who defend various persons in their past lineage or in the present as far as that goes.

When you get the water from the 'crystal clear spring' you don't have to worry about a dirty vessel.:asian: The Lineage is very clear.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

Gary

First off I think you meant "slight" and not "slite's" keep coming?

If you think I am misquoting I am pasting your quotes. The only alteration is I take out the most incomprehensible, innane and illogical in your posts. sorry if this offends you-but I need to a least try to make sense of what you're saying!

As far as the movie reference or the "throwing the 1st punch reference" I really have no idea what the hell you're talking about!
Actually, if you get water from a Crystal Spring you need to worry about a dirty vessel. It would, in fact contaminate trhe water you store/carry? Even your own analgies are a little twisted!
Todd

[John Bishop]

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll

[kelly keltner]

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.
yep sure is

kell

[Karazenpo]

If I may quote Gary:

"After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage."

I have to most definitely agree on the point of removing Mitose from the lineage. I've always said that I seperated Mitose the man from Mitose the martial artist. He still planted the seed which we call kenpo that was nurtured, cultivated and spread by others into all the fine systems we have today. Now, imho, whether he received his basics from Okinawan Kenpo's Nabura Tanamaha of the Choki Motobu lineage or from his maternal grandfather in Japan or a little bit of both, he still was the catalyst who ignited the flame of this Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo. Anyone who digs into the history of our kenpo/kempo systems will find that many started their own thing with probably as much knowledge as Mitose, some maybe a little more and some maybe a little less but right in the ballpark and most were not black belts either. So, to me, if you're going to post a lineage in your Hawaiian derived kenpo art and exclude Mitose, then it is inaccurate. Whether someone likes the man or not, whether he had minimal training or not, all doesn't matter, he still triggered this whole kenpo thing! As far as his character goes, forget it. Imho and many others he certainly was no role model but neither were the unscrupulous Japanese Samurai and they were the initial forerunners of our jiu jitsu systems, should we deny them their role in m.a. history also?

[The Kai]

I don't think Mitose is "removed" from any lineage per se, it is simply a misconception.
Todd

[John Bishop]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.

[James Kovacich]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.
Now that was a powerful post! Funny thing. I watched my Kaju History tape over the weekend and Sijo talked about all those who passed through Kajukenbo before moving on and becoming famous. I find Sijo to be intersting and his personalitie reminded much of my old instructor from back in the day.

[Karazenpo]

Todd and Sigung John, you know I'm with you guys and I agree on 99.9 per cent of what you say but here's my perspective. Todd, it's not misconspection, it's fact, EPAK cuts Mitose out of their lineage and this is in no way slandering the Parker people for I've had this friendly disagreement on lineage with Dr. Ron Chapel whom I have the utmost respect for. John Bishop, I also have the utmost respect for and I'm sure he knows that but Nick Cerio was very close to Kathy and I, it goes without saying the respect we have for him and his accomplishments along with his place in kenpo history, but if I have to be truthful............. John is correct on the lineage issue, again, not taking anything away from Professor Cerio because I've always believed that and in personal conversations, the Professor always stated it was his first kenpo instructor whom he made his black belt under, Gm. S. George Pesare, who gave him his identity. However, on this point, John, in a friendly and respectful disagreement, I have to say, all of the Hawaiian derived kenpo does indeed hold their existance to James Mitose (and you know, John, I'm in no way a supporter of Mitose, the man!). Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later. Don't get me wrong, in time Sijo made his own modifications and revisions, no doubt. Same thing with Parker, from 1954 to around 1961 he essentially taught the same kenpo Chow taught him which was what Mitose taught Chow, with, I grant you, a few modifications here and there but nothing so significant that would constitute it a whole new style and of cource, later, Parker did his own thing. Respectfully submitted, "Joe"

[kelly keltner]

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in.
The statement that Bruce was rewriting lineage as if he was jumping up or ahead of other people. What would you do?
1. He was given the system by Mitose. The documentation has been verified by a well known forensic handwriting analyst and well known and respected witnesses who were around in the late 70's.
2. How do you write a lineage chart for such a situation? This is a serious question.
3. Bruce does not ignore, disavow or deny any of his teachers.
4. Here is a partial list. Mariano Estioko, Dan Babkok(sp), Mike Dean, Remy Presas, Angel Cabales.
5. If you would read his books, or watch his tapes or heaven forbid I'm beatin a dead horse here give him a call you'd know this.
6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


kelly

[John Bishop]

Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later.
Respectfully submitted, "Joe"Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

[John Bishop]

OK, for Kelly's sake, let me say this.
I don't personally know Mr. Juchnik, and have never seen him demonstrate techniques, other then on video.
But, from what I have been told by people who's opinions I respect, Mr. Juchnik is a excellent martial arts technician, and teacher.
I do not question any of his documents from James Mitose, or his claim to be the leader of his own version of Kosho Ryu.

But I have noticed that in all the bios or articles (that I've seen over the last 20 years)that have been written about or by him, the only mention of his "Kenpo" instructor is Mitose. I'm not saying that one should list every instructor they got a purple belt from, but someone who trained you to black belt level is a important part of your martial arts experience, as is your teachers, teacher.
But he can write whatever auto-biography he want's. It's his-story.

So anyway, back to the discussion on lineages.

[kelly keltner]

I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".

However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.

kelly

[Karazenpo]

Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

Hey John, yes, I know where you're coming from and most definitely see your points. I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo. If one follows that logic then Mitose is the 'root' but 'root' doesn't mean that Kajukenbo is all Kosho ryu, I didn't mean that and I certainly wouldn't leave out the other founders either, it just means to me anyway, that's how it all started. I mean, it's roots weren't Shotokan or Hapkido. I believe in the early years it was called kenpo karate and that still holds true in the Emperado method, which is listed as the 'original' kenpo karate method. We all know that some of the true eclectic blending didn't occur until the 60's. Good question about Shotokan, they may trace it to Funakoshi but when Funakoshi's lineage is shown it does go back to Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu, it has too. Karazenpo's tree always goes under a subsystem of Kajukenbo. I don't know, John, just how I see it but it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge all the founders of Kajukenbo, I'm just talking about tracing back to it's origins.

[Karazenpo]

Kelly stated:

6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.

[John Bishop]

I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo.
Well, I have nobody to blame but myself, since most of these "Kenpo lineage trees" have been taken from some early magazine articles I wrote about William Chow and other Kenpo people.
But the purpose that I created the tree ( http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kenpofamilytree.cfm ) was to show the origin of other Kenpo systems that now exist. I could have easily put "Kajukenbo" on a jujitsu tree under Danzan Ryu.
It was the Kajukenbo offshoots that decided to reclaim the "Kenpo" name, after breaking away from Kajukenbo. But the name "Kajukenbo" is more representative of our 5 roots, not one.
So instead of tracing five distinct lineages, we have to start our root with the Founders, who created something uniquely differant then any of the individual 5 systems.

[The Kai]

I guess to a Large Degree it comes down to whom you consider to be the founder(s) of your style

At what point is a system seperate from it's parent art?

[USKS1]

I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?

So is he really teaching Kosho??

Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...

[The Kai]

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?

[kelly keltner]

Kelly stated:

6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.


Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.
Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

[John Bishop]

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?
Actually you can go farther than that:
Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee) = Okinawan Karate
James Muro = Danzan Ryu Jujitsu
And a few others

Eugene Sedeno would be Kajukenbo (Walter Godin) & Shaolin Kenpo (Rick Alemany).

[GAB]

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll
John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary
The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave

[GAB]

I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?

So is he really teaching Kosho??

Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...
USKS1
Yes, that is very true.

One of the reasons for the split after almost a decade of togetherness..

I think the best thing that came out of all this, is that GGM Thomas is continuing the lineage by having his son (Mark) placed in the position of the 23rd GGM.

I truley hope he is going to continue the art.

One of the deals Hanshi Juchnik made with GGM James Mitose was to go forth and get others to learn and spread the art. He did that. He brought into the circle several (all that are named) in the book "True".

I don't think anyone thought it would all be taught the same, just like other styles or systems get a twist, when it goes on down or up the line.

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.

That is the reason Hanshi seeked Thomas out and had such a good friendship with Thomas Young.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave
Hi, If it is that clear, explain it please in a pm to me or however you want.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".

However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.

kelly
Hi all,

Yes, Hanshi most of the time is focused in on Kosho.

He is now going to start and incorporate some of his knowledge in FMA and start teaching to students who are interested.
It will be based on the movements that are so good in the relationship to the octagon.
One on one and multiple opponet contact with the stick and empty hand...

Myself for one and my Son for another will be getting some of this training. I will be posting some more information on this later.

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.


BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.

CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.

SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.

THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.

SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".

SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.

SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.

[The Kai]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

[Karazenpo]

Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.

John stated: "You know better then to take these website claims at face value".

No, John, that was not my intention of the post. I posted the bio so others could comment on it because just before that there was controversy about Sifu Leoning's rank in those early years. My intent was to show one of the sources of such controversy. "Joe"

[Karazenpo]

Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

I hear ya, Kell.

[Karazenpo]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........

[GAB]

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd
Good point Todd...

But... he did not leave the Keys to the martial art, he left the keys to the building.

Thomas Young carried on the Martial arts taught there. But was not privy to the lineage. He was able to define his certain twist and there fore was able to keep it going. He then turned over the building to someone else etc....

His cousin Mike Young was and still is I believe connected with Hanshi.

John Bishop,

Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world. I would not discount his knowledge from what you have said.

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

John Bishop,

Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world.
Regards, Gary
Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.

[GAB]

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........
Hi Joe:

One thread quite some time ago, John Bishop said, Thomas Mitose was an honorable person and very quiet about the lineage. I feel that Thomas Mitose is that way because of his respect for Hanshi. He knows the truth...

IN My Opinion the truth is: If not for Hanshi Bruce, Thomas would have been left at the starting gate. He would have had to go to bat and fight for his rightful spot.
Hanshi was responsible for the the good, bad and ugly. He will tell you all about it, just call him. Thomas was and is very grateful for what Hanshi did.

I am sure his son Mark is also. If that is not the truth, then lets hear it.

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.
I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.

From what you have said of late makes me believe you are not able to see outside the box.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

What you say, and I say are only one side of the road. Most topics are not always agreed upon. It would be pretty boring if that was the case.

I think it is and has been a good dicussion. Remember this all started because of the A&E topic. I for one am glad to hear anyones input, some of it may not be exactly what I have read or heard but it is still worthy of comment.

Was it Plato who said, arguement is good for arguement's sake? Something like that...

I am alway's respectful of your input.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

But... he did not leave the Keys to the martial art, he left the keys to the building.
But they both trained with Mitose for the same amount of time, but at different loops in the time line. So Y oung was seniormost student leave him the shool, resposibilty and nothing else

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade

Sometimes you have to remember that a rising tide lifts all boats. The history of the martail arts is intertwined between practioners.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

All Martail Arts history is a curious mixture of fact, myth, misunderstanding and wish - That is what I tell my students.
Sijo history is Sijo's version of Sijo's history-You could put any name in there.
john Bishop gave a double check on the facts. If you don't want to blindly agree to Sijo's history, you neither should blindly agree with a website because you agree to it! Ya know what I mean?
Todd

[John Bishop]

I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

Regards, Gary
Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.

And. If someone is claiming that John Leoning was of a certain rank, or received a certain rank, at a certain time. Who better to ask, than his teacher, Sijo Emperado. The only one who would have given him his rank.

I've asked you in the past who your sources were, but you've never named any creditible ones.

[GAB]

Not at all. But when you have someone who claims that he trained in 1970 with John Leoning, and that he was awarded a "4th degree" from John Leoning. I asked some of John Leoning's black belts who "were there" in 1970, including Leoning's most senior black belt. "They" never heard of him. "They" say Leoning's school was on Lankershim Bl, not where this individual claimed to have attended classes.

And. If someone is claiming that John Leoning was of a certain rank, or received a certain rank, at a certain time. Who better to ask, than his teacher, Sijo Emperado. The only one who would have given him his rank.

I've asked you in the past who your sources were, but you've never named any creditible ones.
John Bishop:

I had read the Fisher site and felt it was creditible, at this point and time with your above information I will stand corrected.

John, I don't believe I have mentioned any source's other then the various websites, as we all know they are all suspect.

Yes, I will give you the respect, you are in the position to know and you are very willing to talk about it and explain it.

Regards, Gary


Todd, Yes I understand what you are saying, do we understand each other???

I don't think so.

Regards, Gary

[The Kai]

Gary

That all i wanted, I did'nt expect you to understand me.
Todd

[GAB]

Hi all, I think we have wandered off of the original thread.

Will we be able to get some input from the Sijo Gascon side of this evolution among the various participants?

I wrote to Sijo Gascon, but have not received a reply, maybe my reputation precedes me and I will not get an answer...LOL

Joe maybe you could try and get some more information regarding the time in North Hollywood and some of his thoughts regarding that time frame.

From what I have read several of the sisters of each of the participants married these group of guys, it would be interesting to know the interrelations of this group and what has become of there progeny.
Regards, Gary

[KENPOJOE]

I spent last saturday visiting with Sijo Emperado, and we talked a little bit about John Leoning and Sonny Gascon. I was under the impression that Gascon was a first generation Kajukenbo black belt, because his name is listed under Sijo Emperado on our family tree. Sijo told me that Gascon was in fact John Leoning's black belt, but that he came under Sijo Emperado after Leoning died in 77. This tells us that there was still a relationship between Karazempo and Kajukenbo at that time.
...As to the techniques that John Leoning and Sonny Gascon taught, they are somewhat differant. (My first Kajukenbo instructor was from the Leoning lineage, and I know some of Leoning's first black belts, so I've seen their techniques.) I've never seen Karazempo techniques, so I can't say whether there are slightly or vastly differant then Leoning's.
The best example of the "Original Method" is in the 2 video series produced by GM Gary Forbach. The "Panther Productions" series,and the "World Kajukenbo Organization" series. All the taping of the WKO series were personally supervised by Sijo Emperado to make sure they were "original teachings".


I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.

Hi Folks!
Dear John, That was a very informational post! BTW, it's KarazeNpo, not KarazeMpo. No biggie, just mentioning it.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Sonny Gascon, Bill Ryusaki, Dave Kamalani, Julio Blacquera, Walter Godin.

I don't personally remember this. I am just playing at it. Because you want to go there rather then answer my thoughts. Or deal with the apparent flaw that I have observed.:asian:....

I am 63 this month John, every one knows me around this area. Call my friend and Sensei Pat Kelly or a new Sensei I just started to go to also, Tim Evans. They are in the Elk Grove phone book.

I have nothing to prove John, I have been there and done that, end of this comment for now. Could we get back to the time line?? Thank you.

Regards, Gary

Dear Gary,
It's interesting that you mention David Kamalani....I worked with a "Larry Hooker" in Bakersfield,CA who was from Kamalami's lineage and the art had definite taken a different "slant" perhaps from the original kajukenbo format[probably due to Kamalani dying in a car accident at a young age]...when i returned to the Bakersfield area much later, I found the Mr. Hooker had "retired" and one of his Black Belts was teaching at a local health club and we went over some of the Karazenpo/Shaolin Kempo format that I had learned and taught a fw of the Combinations such as #3 with the ending and they do NOTHING like what I had known as Karazenpo except for some of the basics. If you ever see 2 vertical bamboo stalks entwined with vines and the karazenpo name it will the Kamalani lineage.
Thank you for mentioning him!
BTW,Mr. Bishop, you will see the Kamalani line mentioned on some of the Kajukenbo lineage charts, are you familiar with anyone from that particular group?
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Answer#1

Leoning's school in No. Hollywood, Ca. was funded by the Hawaiian actor Poncy Ponce. Pictured is Poncy Ponce, and the actress Connie Stevens.
Poncy Ponce, Connie Stevens, and Robert Conrad starred in the 50's-60's TV detective show "Hawaiian Eye".
Robert Conrad, who was a student of John Leoning, was to use his Kajukenbo skills later in his next T.V. series; "Wild Wild West".
In fact when Conrad (as James West) fought actor Don Stroud, it was the first time two Kajukenbo stylists fought each other in a TV show or movie. Don Stroud had been a student of Sijo Emperado's at the Palama Settlement school.

Answer#2
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones.

Answer #3

Bill Ryusaki broke away around 62-63 and took several of the students with him. His most famous student is Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. And yes he claims John Leoning as his Kajukenbo/Kenpo teacher.

Hi Folks!
Mr.Bishop, Thanks again for an informative post! Really enjoyed the pic too! Got to see if "Hawaiian eye" is on DVD now!
Now I realize who poncy ponce is! I've heard hawaiian martial artists mention him [Tom Bolden immediately comes to mind] and now I know who they were taking about! I believe I have footage of Carlos Bunda fighting at the 1964 IKC and I have Sonny Gascon teaching at Mr. Parker's studio [i believe].
In regards to Bill Ryusaki, lets not forget that several of the Urquidez bros all studied with him [Arnold,Ruben,...] It was a pleasure to meet Bill Ryusaki in 2001 at the gathering of the eagles and interview him as well as have him do a short demo on one of Ted Tabura's Black Belts who was available. I mentioned to him that I remembered the "Karate Illustrated" cover and article that He had done way back when and he did one of the techniques from the article!
KENPO TRIVIA:On What TV show did Ed Parker demonstrate Kenpo on Bill Ryusaki and show the first groin kick on network television?
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Personally, I gave up a long time ago of looking for exact dates in the rankings of the old seniors and for that matter, dates for anything back then. I found two dates of when Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan, two dates on when Mitose came to Hawaii and 3 ages when he went to Japan to study-3, 4 and 5. Two dates when Sifu Leoning brought Kajukenbo to the mainland (1957, 1958). Charles Fisher has Sifu Leoning listed as the highest ranking Kajukenbo black belt on the mainland in 1960-8th dan, check out his website. We finally get a date on Chow's black belt years ago only to find out it was not signed by Mitose which we were led to believe for so many years but by Professor Thomas Young of which I've heard several different reasons why that was done. Four dates listed for New England's first kenpo school- 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. At least two dates listed for the founding of Gm. Fred Villari's organization-1968, 1971. Three dates recorded for Boddhidharma hooking up at the Shaolin Temple according to various sources. Several dates of when Kajukenbo added it's various arts from 1947 to the 60's, take your pick, several years of which Mr. Parker started his revisions of the Mitose/Chow Kenpo that span the late 50's to the early 60's and the beat goes on..........

As far as black belts go, I now sincerely believe this black belt thing of legitimate rank and so forth is a product of the newer generations of kenpo practitioners. Let's take a look at the old and start with Funokoshi. Here's an excerpt I used on this forum on another topic:

"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."

So, now we got the 'father of all black belts', the first karate black belt in history and that's how he got it, not to mention a godan renshi ranking! It's really funny because his student, Konishi, mentioned above, only held ranking in a Japanese sword art and back then the 'Kai' only hosted the Japanese jiu jitsu, aikido and sword related arts but has since expanded. Later, the Butoku-kai got the reputation of being a 'paper mill'. There is controversary on when the late Mr. Parker received his shodan from Professor Chow and the number one person who started all this Hawaiian derived kenpo thing, James M. Mitose was never awarded a black belt period. This is not at all meant to knock anyone but to make a point. The point being, back then, black belt was very subjective with very loose requirements. I also believe most back then, if not all, weren't even tested for the rank. Curriculums, as we know, were very limited with an emphasis on drilling the basics, self defense techniques which could be expanded upon by borrowing from the basics and just one form to start the whole thing, Naihanchi. I would venture to say many donned the belt prior to any 'official' promotion by their instructor when they began to publically propagate the art and received the ranking later on down the road when they proved themselves worthy. No one ever complained about it back then or now, so perhaps that was an accepted method of how it was done in that time. This happened all over, including Okinawa which took it a step further with the 'airport promotions'. In those early years in Hawaii and then in kenpo's introduction to the mainland it was like this saying I picked up from KenpoJoe Rebelo, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind." If they weren't black belts in kenpo with only three karate schools in all of southern California, two of which were kenpo, then who were?, lol. As the 70's approached in my area (New England) there was all this talk about self promotion and legitimate rank because of Fred Villari going from a nidan under Nick Cerio to a 10th in record time, surpassing, not only his instructor but his instructor's instructor. The only problem was some of the most vehement Villari critics also did their own rank thing, only it was anywhere from three to six thousand miles away. Fred Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard.......trained in Rhode Island, lived and worked in Massachusetts and set up his first schools in New England. So, what I try to do in my research is to just show an accurate lineage of our systems, which at times, can also be difficult but it gives an idea of who and where we came from and what went into our art.
__________________

Hi Folks!
Thanks for mentioning some of the "reference paperwork",Joe! Recently, I met with Joe at a local martial arts school and I brought some of the different paperwork about New England kenpo and different dates,etc...and for mentioning the "In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is KING!" line!
You mention the Butokukai and Richard Kim comes to mind! I recently found a column from an old issue of Black Belt magazine where Richard Kim addresses his view on Kenpo{which I will scan and place here at a later date]. Unfortunately, He died before I could ask him regarding the column, because it had infuriated Ed Parker enough that it became an impetus to create the "zen of kenpo" book!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Joe,

Good post, thanks.

The part about the "one eyed man in the land of the blind" is right on.

GM Estalilla in Kabaroan, use's that also, for all the various arts that came out of the FMA. Lot more Islands then Hawaii and as much controversy x 50, I have found.


Regards, Gary

Dear Gary,
Glad you like the comment!
You mention GM Estalilla and both Ed Planas and Huk Planas are both student of him, So I might have heard it from "Huk"!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

[John Bishop]

BTW,Mr. Bishop, you will see the Kamalani line mentioned on some of the Kajukenbo lineage charts, are you familiar with anyone from that particular group?
KENPOJOE
I met some people from that group at a Kajukenbo gathering, but it's been 12-15 years ago. I don't know what thier up to now days.



Hi Folks!
Mr.Bishop, Thanks again for an informative post! Really enjoyed the pic too! Got to see if "Hawaiian eye" is on DVD now!
Now I realize who poncy ponce is! I've heard hawaiian martial artists mention him [Tom Bolden immediately comes to mind] and now I know who they were taking about! I believe I have footage of Carlos Bunda fighting at the 1964 IKC and I have Sonny Gascon teaching at Mr. Parker's studio [i believe].
KENPOJOE
I was just talking to GM Carlos Bunda last night. He's one of our legendary fighters. We've been searching for old footage of his fighting. Priceless would be his victory over Chuck Norris, where he broke Chuck's cup (ouch) with a classic kenpo groin kick.




In regards to Bill Ryusaki, lets not forget that several of the Urquidez bros all studied with him [Arnold,Ruben,...] It was a pleasure to meet Bill Ryusaki in 2001 at the gathering of the eagles and interview him as well as have him do a short demo on one of Ted Tabura's Black Belts who was available. KENPOJOE
Yes, too many Urquidez's to mention. Arnold, Ruben, Smiley, Benny, Lilly, brother in law Blinky Rodriguez etc, etc. A lot of good fighters came out of Ryu-Dojo, including Cecil Peoples.
GM Ryusaki was just promoted to 9th degree last July by Sijo Emperado at his annual birthday tournament. Ryusaki, Al Dacascos, Eric Lee, and Gary Forbach were all promoted to 9th degree that night.

[Karazenpo]

Dear Gary,
It's interesting that you mention David Kamalani....I worked with a "Larry Hooker" in Bakersfield,CA who was from Kamalami's lineage and the art had definite taken a different "slant" perhaps from the original kajukenbo format[probably due to Kamalani dying in a car accident at a young age]...when i returned to the Bakersfield area much later, I found the Mr. Hooker had "retired" and one of his Black Belts was teaching at a local health club and we went over some of the Karazenpo/Shaolin Kempo format that I had learned and taught a fw of the Combinations such as #3 with the ending and they do NOTHING like what I had known as Karazenpo except for some of the basics. If you ever see 2 vertical bamboo stalks entwined with vines and the karazenpo name it will the Kamalani lineage.
Thank you for mentioning him!
BTW,Mr. Bishop, you will see the Kamalani line mentioned on some of the Kajukenbo lineage charts, are you familiar with anyone from that particular group?
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE

Hi Joe, maybe this will help on #3 combination. When I studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, #3 was #3 in the sequence of combinations and was the counterpart of the #3 that Shaolin Kempo uses that I believe Cerio had modified when he taught Villari. However, it was against two opponents (one in front and one holding you in a double arm pin from behind), You would duck a punch to the head by dropping into a right kneeling stance, facing 9 o'clock but looking 12 o'clock while simultaneously delivering a front two knuckle punch (horizontal fist) to the groin w/ the right (this would also release you from the hold from behind), as you come back up you immediately go into a right 'cup & saucer' ( left fist over right fist) which was a full power right driving elbow to the opponent's body behind you. You would then thrown a right uppercut to the opponent's slumped over chin (from the preceding groin shot) with a simultaneous left driving elbow to the rear opponent and then cross and cover, looking in both directions at the downed opponents as a check. When I started formally taking classes again in 2003 at Gm. Pesare's the combination hadn't changed, duck and punch, elbow to the rear, uppercut, cross and cover. I'm positive because it was one of the combinations I did for my 7th dan test there. The only difference was it was now numbered numeral 1, not 3 anymore. My understanding is that this was one of the original combinations Pesare taught in the 60's when he brought the system out here. Take care, my friend and see you at the end of January in Marlboro. Happy Holidays, "Joe"

PS: I,too, love that line: "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind", LOL.

[Karazenpo]

Hi all, I think we have wandered off of the original thread.

Will we be able to get some input from the Sijo Gascon side of this evolution among the various participants?

I wrote to Sijo Gascon, but have not received a reply, maybe my reputation precedes me and I will not get an answer...LOL

Joe maybe you could try and get some more information regarding the time in North Hollywood and some of his thoughts regarding that time frame.

From what I have read several of the sisters of each of the participants married these group of guys, it would be interesting to know the interrelations of this group and what has become of there progeny.
Regards, Gary

Hi Gary, I will see Sijo Gascon at the end of January and ask. Sijo doesn't return e-mails unless he knows you, it's his perrogative and in these days, I don't blame him at all, lol, but it is nothing personal against you. Other than that, he is very personable and outgoing and enjoys talking of the history as much as we do. "Joe"

[Thunderbolt]

Hi Gary, I will see Sijo Gascon at the end of January and ask. Sijo doesn't return e-mails unless he knows you, it's his perrogative and in these days, I don't blame him at all, lol, but it is nothing personal against you. Other than that, he is very personable and outgoing and enjoys talking of the history as much as we do. "Joe"i have to agree with Pro Joe here. Gary, you may receive a response from sijo gascon's assistant about your question if he doesn't personally resply. this is certainly a big MAY. I don't guarantee you anything.

if you receive any news, please post it here.

thank you

[GAB]

Dear Gary,
Glad you like the comment!
You mention GM Estalilla and both Ed Planas and Huk Planas are both student of him, So I might have heard it from "Huk"!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE
Hi KENPOJOE,

When talking to GM Estalilla he mentioned the Planas Brothers, at the time I thought, the martial arts word really is pretty small, he also mentioned Anthony Davis. Then I found out Anthony Davis is teaching right here in Sacramento.

I will try and follow that up. Thanks for all the feed back and information.
Regards, Gary

[KENPOJOE]

Hi Joe, maybe this will help on #3 combination. When I studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, #3 was #3 in the sequence of combinations and was the counterpart of the #3 that Shaolin Kempo uses that I believe Cerio had modified when he taught Villari. However, it was against two opponents (one in front and one holding you in a double arm pin from behind), You would duck a punch to the head by dropping into a right kneeling stance, facing 9 o'clock but looking 12 o'clock while simultaneously delivering a front two knuckle punch (horizontal fist) to the groin w/ the right (this would also release you from the hold from behind), as you come back up you immediately go into a right 'cup & saucer' ( left fist over right fist) which was a full power right driving elbow to the opponent's body behind you. You would then thrown a right uppercut to the opponent's slumped over chin (from the preceding groin shot) with a simultaneous left driving elbow to the rear opponent and then cross and cover, looking in both directions at the downed opponents as a check. When I started formally taking classes again in 2003 at Gm. Pesare's the combination hadn't changed, duck and punch, elbow to the rear, uppercut, cross and cover. I'm positive because it was one of the combinations I did for my 7th dan test there. The only difference was it was now numbered numeral 1, not 3 anymore. My understanding is that this was one of the original combinations Pesare taught in the 60's when he brought the system out here. Take care, my friend and see you at the end of January in Marlboro. Happy Holidays, "Joe"

PS: I,too, love that line: "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind", LOL.
Hi Folks!
Dear Joe,
I have seen that version of Combo#3 as well as a couple of variations from Art Lapham who trained w/ Paul Botelho and Jim Speights as well as learning the Cerio/Villari version with the takedown. When GM Gascon went over the first 5 Combinations they looked nothing like what more like the master key moves to EPAK techniques like "Flashing mace","Leaping crane" etc...I distinctly remembering both im and I immediately recognizing the variation on these techniques in the combos and commenting on it. Later that night we were asked to demonstrate them and i found myself instantly going into "flashing mace" because it was so similar!We also saw some combos that still looked the same though [like the villari versions of #4 and #16] All the more reason that a video on the combinations needs to be done to clarify the origins!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[Karazenpo]

Hi Folks!
Dear Joe,
I have seen that version of Combo#3 as well as a couple of variations from Art Lapham who trained w/ Paul Botelho and Jim Speights as well as learning the Cerio/Villari version with the takedown. When GM Gascon went over the first 5 Combinations they looked nothing like what more like the master key moves to EPAK techniques like "Flashing mace","Leaping crane" etc...I distinctly remembering both im and I immediately recognizing the variation on these techniques in the combos and commenting on it. Later that night we were asked to demonstrate them and i found myself instantly going into "flashing mace" because it was so similar!We also saw some combos that still looked the same though [like the villari versions of #4 and #16] All the more reason that a video on the combinations needs to be done to clarify the origins!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

Thanks for the info., Joe. I would love to see a video produced on this information. We should speak to Sijo Gascon and Professor Rash and see what they think. It's supply and demand but I'll say one thing, the demand will be through the roof. As you know, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu is the mother system of a great number of kempo practitioners today and they're all asking the same question: 'What is the original kempo of our system?" Take care & have a very "Merry Christmas", Joe & Kathy

[BC99]

I realize that this is not a topic specific post - but I wanted to post to an area where there are people reading.

I am looking for Kenpo/Kempo stylist - preferably from the Shaolin Kempo (Villari)lineage who would like to work as an instructor. Of course this would require that the person move to where we are located. The primary responsibility of the instructor would be to:

1. Organize and teach a newly formed Kid's program

This person DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A BLACK BELT, however should be Purple or above in Kenpo/Kempo

We are a multi faceted school, able to train someone in many areas. We are staffed by 5 very highly reputable instructors. We train several fighters in Kickboxing and Vale Tudo (no holds Barred), and currently home to a World Champ and Pan American Champ in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

What would you get?

1. An apartment to live in
2. Some pay
3. Training in any of the following:

Kali/Eskrima
Jeet Kune Do
Kenpo
Brazilian Jiu Jitsu
Muay Thai/American Rule/Euro Rules/San Shou Kickboxing
Vale Tudo
Weapons

I know that anyone on this site that knows me well will vouch for my integrity. (Some who don't know me, may say otherwise!!!)

Take a look at our site at www.pmaknoxville.com (http://www.pmaknoxville.com/), and if you are interested send an E-mail while you are there.

[GAB]

Thanks for the info., Joe. I would love to see a video produced on this information. We should speak to Sijo Gascon and Professor Rash and see what they think. It's supply and demand but I'll say one thing, the demand will be through the roof. As you know, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu is the mother system of a great number of kempo practitioners today and they're all asking the same question: 'What is the original kempo of our system?" Take care & have a very "Merry Christmas", Joe & KathyHi Joe's,

I feel that the simularities between Bill Gates and publishing are very important, when you publish you are open to comment. Some of the time it is good and some of the time it is bad but all the time it is about the person who published.

So what do I mean?

Why are some so concerned as to not publish? And then some are so desirous as to publish even if the homework is not done. Apple and Microsoft...

Different strokes for different folks...

What I find interesting is that both the Sijos of these two systems we are talking about (Kajukenbo and Karazenpo) have not published much of their own thoughts or system...
Are they afraid of critics? Are they insecure about their own background???
Maybe before they are gone we will see some written material or dvd's or ???

Or maybe it is their way of keeping the lid on??? Closet type of mentality???

I am sure after they are gone there will be quite a bit written...But then it will be all hearsay, won't it???

Regards, Gary

[Karazenpo]

Hi Joe's,

I feel that the simularities between Bill Gates and publishing are very important, when you publish you are open to comment. Some of the time it is good and some of the time it is bad but all the time it is about the person who published.

So what do I mean?

Why are some so concerned as to not publish? And then some are so desirous as to publish even if the homework is not done. Apple and Microsoft...

Different strokes for different folks...

What I find interesting is that both the Sijos of these two systems we are talking about (Kajukenbo and Karazenpo) have not published much of their own thoughts or system...
Are they afraid of critics? Are they insecure about their own background???
Maybe before they are gone we will see some written material or dvd's or ???

Or maybe it is their way of keeping the lid on??? Closet type of mentality???

I am sure after they are gone there will be quite a bit written...But then it will be all hearsay, won't it???

Regards, Gary

I don't know Sijo Emperado personally and it's certainly not my place to speak for him, John will have to answer that one and I'm sure he will..... As far as Sijo Gascon goes, he's very laid back and is not commercialized at all. He's a strong believer in 'ohana', pulling everyone in together as one big family. Ohana is more important to him then the green stuff and that is his goal with no hidden agendas. He's CERTAINLY not insecure about himself, his abilities or his background and by all means, he shouldn't be! As far as him being afraid of critics, I personally don't think Sijo Gascon is afraid of the devil himself, lol. Anyone on the islands will tell you his reputation precedes him where ever he goes and it's a 'positive' reputation, not negative. He, along with Sijo Emperado are 'living legends'. Sigung John Bishop, you're turn...............

Take care Gary & Happy New Year to you and yours, "Joe"

[Karazenpo]

Sorry Gary, I forgot to add that although Sijo Gascon hasn't marketed of what you asked, one of our members (KGS BBS) has. Shihan Chris Geary of Omaha, Nebraska conducted a lengthy interview on the history, one on one with Sijo Gascon in person last year and it's currently being marketed by Shihan Chris. I've talked to him on the phone about it and he did a good job with it. Just go to his website, Shihan Geary's Shaolin Kempo Karate. If you check the 'net', Sifu Bruce Corrigan did a comprehensive history of Sonny Gascon and Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu about 10 years ago titled Kempo History: Sonny Gascon, "Father" of East Coast Kempo. There are no secrets, it's all out there.

[John Bishop]

GAB:
It's obvious to a lot of us that you see a conspiracy behind everything.
But the answer's pretty simple. Not everyone's a writer. And not everyone who can write, is interested in writing. Some people are actually only interested in training and teaching. Some only in training. Some are actually humble people.
Does that mean they are hiding something from the martial arts public? I doubt it. Pretty hard for a system to spread to 20+ countries, if everything's been kept secret.
And having books published really dosen't mean much, because anybody who wants to spend their own money can "self publish" books, or "self produce" videos/DVD's. We've all seen the crappy garage/backyard video's, and hokey ego driven books people advertize in Black Belt, or sell at their seminars.
One individual in the 50s-60s-70s wrote little "how to" martial arts paperbacks on almost every martial art know to western man. Even invented his own style. Was he a great writer? Did he know all the arts he wrote about? That's open to debate. But having a father in law who owned a publishing company most likely helped his writing career.
For the most part, publishing is a profit oriented business. Publishers are only going to publish books that they feel will sell in large amounts. That's why so many books are "out of print". The publishers took a chance on them, and when the sales numbers weren't great, there was no second printing.
Many western martial artists are differant then their eastern counterparts. Many Japanese martial artists are highly educated, professional people. In fact the majority of them got thier training in college and university clubs.
In Korea, Tae Kwon Do is a national sport with much government backing. As a result,in Asia, you will see about as many martial arts books as you will see baseball, football, and golf books in America.
I can't speak about Mr. Gascon, but there have been interviews published in the major martial arts magazines with Sijo Emperado.
There is a 60 minute video interview of him that was produced by Panther Productions (now owned by Century Martial Arts).
There is a 2003 video/DVD interview of him produced by "Budo International", the largest martial arts magazine in the world.
There is also a newly released 90 minute interview of him (the "Emperado Series, Volume l") that is on DVD and produced by the World Kajukenbo Organization (availiable from forbachvideo@yahoo.com).
Just because someone is not standing on your porch explaining themselves to you, dosent mean they're keeping secrets. The information is out there if you look for it.

[The Kai]

The perils of publishing

Once upon a time there were relatively few books, no videos/dvd's. So when you wanted to study a art, you went to an instructor of that art. Even if you already were a martial artist, you had to study with a senior of a given art.
What happened, videos came out everybody could now do thier own thing without ever leaving thier tv!
Without producing a lot of media on your style you insure
1.) Control, you know who and where things are being tought
2.() Chain of command, everybody has a senior
there are advantages to publishing and to not publishing
Todd

[GAB]

Hi all,

Thanks for the information Joe and John...Happy New Year to you and yours...

John, to conspire or "Conspiracy Theory" would be for one, to go to a publisher. Then the two would write a book, or to have some secret. I believe it takes several to conspire...

I guess I am just very inquisitive and ask questions. If someone does not want to tell me, they don't, is it wrong or is it curiosity?

They Conspired to evolve a new Martial Art.

Is that bad or good? Or would you say they got together to develop a way of fighting so they could beat up the other gangs? Was that unlawful?

Or would you say they got together to develop the art for the betterment of society?

I know the Catholic Church until very recently felt the Freemasons were bad because they had secret meetings, well so do the Catholic's...

Whose Ox is getting gored?

The word comes from Latin, 'together' and to 'breathe'.

Freemasonry has been on the other side of the Catholics ever since the Church took away the money they had and killed anyone who was not Catholic.
The Freemasons were behind numerous rebellions against the Catholic Church during the time of the Spanish conquests. Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico...

1492 is a date the Jewish will never forget and it is not because Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I think the reason conspiracy gets a bad rap is because they use it so much to bring down the bad guys.

Or maybe the people who are in charge are really not all that honest themselves and figure everyone who gets together is conspiring???

Just some stuff that was wandering around up in the frontal lobe when I read the slight you made.

Happy Holiday...

Regards, Gary

[John Bishop]

Hi all,

Thanks for the information Joe and John...Happy New Year to you and yours...

John, to conspire or "Conspiracy Theory" would be for one, to go to a publisher. Then the two would write a book, or to have some secret. I believe it takes several to conspire...

I guess I am just very inquisitive and ask questions. If someone does not want to tell me, they don't, is it wrong or is it curiosity?

They Conspired to evolve a new Martial Art.

Is that bad or good? Or would you say they got together to develop a way of fighting so they could beat up the other gangs? Was that unlawful?

Or would you say they got together to develop the art for the betterment of society?

I know the Catholic Church until very recently felt the Freemasons were bad because they had secret meetings, well so do the Catholic's...

Whose Ox is getting gored?

The word comes from Latin, 'together' and to 'breathe'.

Freemasonry has been on the other side of the Catholics ever since the Church took away the money they had and killed anyone who was not Catholic.
The Freemasons were behind numerous rebellions against the Catholic Church during the time of the Spanish conquests. Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico...

1492 is a date the Jewish will never forget and it is not because Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I think the reason conspiracy gets a bad rap is because they use it so much to bring down the bad guys.

Or maybe the people who are in charge are really not all that honest themselves and figure everyone who gets together is conspiring???

Just some stuff that was wandering around up in the frontal lobe when I read the slight you made.

Happy Holiday...

Regards, Gary
First it's Bill Gates, Microsoft, Apple. Now it's the Free Masons and the Catholic Church.:idunno:

Somewhere in here is supposed to be something that has to do with martial arts:idunno: ??

[GAB]

First it's Bill Gates, Microsoft, Apple. Now it's the Free Masons and the Catholic Church.:idunno:

Somewhere in here is supposed to be something that has to do with martial arts:idunno: ??
Hi John.

Yes, I can see your point.

I guess the synaptic junctions are miss firing or????:idunno: Or as Doc once said, get back on your meds...LOL

Happy Holiday

Regards, Gary

Ps. I will check out the stuff you relayed. Thanks...

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi John.

Yes, I can see your point.

I guess the synaptic junctions are miss firing or????:idunno: Or as Doc once said, get back on your meds...LOL

Happy Holiday

Regards, Gary

Ps. I will check out the stuff you relayed. Thanks...
Stay like you are Gary, I loved your conspriacy comparisons, I just don't want to meet you if you're wearing a foil hat LOL.

DarK LorD

[GAB]

Stay like you are Gary, I loved your conspriacy comparisons, I just don't want to meet you if you're wearing a foil hat LOL.

DarK LorD
DarK LorD

Happy New Year, Glad to hear from you.

Regards, Gary:btg:

[kelly keltner]

Hi all,

Thanks for the information Joe and John...Happy New Year to you and yours...

John, to conspire or "Conspiracy Theory" would be for one, to go to a publisher. Then the two would write a book, or to have some secret. I believe it takes several to conspire...

I guess I am just very inquisitive and ask questions. If someone does not want to tell me, they don't, is it wrong or is it curiosity?

They Conspired to evolve a new Martial Art.

Is that bad or good? Or would you say they got together to develop a way of fighting so they could beat up the other gangs? Was that unlawful?

Or would you say they got together to develop the art for the betterment of society?

I know the Catholic Church until very recently felt the Freemasons were bad because they had secret meetings, well so do the Catholic's...

Whose Ox is getting gored?

The word comes from Latin, 'together' and to 'breathe'.

Freemasonry has been on the other side of the Catholics ever since the Church took away the money they had and killed anyone who was not Catholic.
The Freemasons were behind numerous rebellions against the Catholic Church during the time of the Spanish conquests. Cuba, Phillipines, Mexico...

1492 is a date the Jewish will never forget and it is not because Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I think the reason conspiracy gets a bad rap is because they use it so much to bring down the bad guys.

Or maybe the people who are in charge are really not all that honest themselves and figure everyone who gets together is conspiring???

Just some stuff that was wandering around up in the frontal lobe when I read the slight you made.

Happy Holiday...

Regards, Gary
Oh boy conspiracy!
For those of us in Ca. It's covered by sec. 182 of the Ca. Penal code.
OOOh I said code.
Under what has been implied might be covered more accuratley under CPC 182.5 maybe CPC 184 "acts effectuating Conspiracy."

lol ha ha
Just kidding fellas
Hey whose been followin me?
Like a good friend of mine said "I quit going to football games cause I know they're talkin about me in the huddle.

kelly

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi all,


1492 is a date the Jewish will never forget and it is not because Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

I think the reason conspiracy gets a bad rap is because they use it so much to bring down the bad guys.

Or maybe the people who are in charge are really not all that honest themselves and figure everyone who gets together is conspiring???

Just some stuff that was wandering around up in the frontal lobe when I read the slight you made.

Happy Holiday...

Regards, Gary
Wow, never knew of those events Gary, thanks for the reference, learn something new everyday.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html

DArK LorD

[GAB]

Wow, never knew of those events Gary, thanks for the reference, learn something new everyday.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/expulsion.html

DArK LorDHi,

Thank you for finding the site and posting it. Some are much better at this internet surfing than me...

Hi Kel,

You are so right about those guys in that huddle LOL... Boy I am going to have to brush up on the code, now that you have one.

It is'nt the conspiricy that gets you it is plotting the crime...Wait that is redundant.

They could not prove "Murder" so they went for conspiracy to commit.
It is especially good when you have the perp turn and say everyone else did it, when they get thru talking they get to walking...Never cared for snitch's.

To bad the system has to rely on them so much, funny they will convict on them and not DNA...Oh well, another time and place.

How is Robert Blake doing have'nt heard much on him. I believe he used to hang around the (Sifu Leoning) dojo on Lankershim in North Hollywood in the 60's. I am not sure about the one on Burbank Blvd. though.

Here is a real coincidence. Nudies was a place all western people and actors went. He was originally on Burbank Blvd. right in the same area as the first dojo, (Gascon and Leoning) then he moved and was right next to the other one on Lankershim Blvd. Hmmmmm I wonder????

I wonder if they conspired (Leoning and Gascon), or if it was the three who visited in the night????:idunno:

Anyone know???

Happy New year.

Regards, Gary

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi,

Thank you for finding the site and posting it. Some are much better at this internet surfing than me...


Happy New year.

Regards, Gary
Here's another off your list

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonry4.htm

DarK LorD

[GAB]

Here's another off your list

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonry4.htm

DarK LorD
Hi DarK LorD,

You are full of information, thanks.

Anyone as condemmed or condammed by those can't be all bad. LOL

Check out the Boston Tea party, and the rise of the new America...

Those Mason's were a bunch of conspirators.

What is interesting is, if you look at most of the Post Office Buildings around, they were conspiring there also.

Look at the Presidents in the last couple of decades and the early ones.

Hmmm...are we going forward or backward? Roots baby! Got to be scaring a few around the edges.

Check out the Shriners...Do you see any ties binding there??? Whats with those knives and swords???

Regards, Gary

[kelly keltner]

Oh boy conspiracy!
For those of us in Ca. It's covered by sec. 182 of the Ca. Penal code.
OOOh I said code.
Under what has been implied might be covered more accuratley under CPC 182.5 maybe CPC 184 "acts effectuating Conspiracy."

lol ha ha
Just kidding fellas
Hey whose been followin me?
Like a good friend of mine said "I quit going to football games cause I know they're talkin about me in the huddle.

kelly
Hey GAB, What about the RICO federeral statutes, continuing criminal enterprises and the like?
Ha Ha LOL

[kelly keltner]

Hi DarK LorD,

You are full of information, thanks.

Anyone as condemmed or condammed by those can't be all bad. LOL

Check out the Boston Tea party, and the rise of the new America...

Those Mason's were a bunch of conspirators.

What is interesting is, if you look at most of the Post Office Buildings around, they were conspiring there also.

Look at the Presidents in the last couple of decades and the early ones.

Hmmm...are we going forward or backward? Roots baby! Got to be scaring a few around the edges.

Check out the Shriners...Do you see any ties binding there??? Whats with those knives and swords???

Regards, GaryOh no not the Masons, not the blue lodge, 33 degrees, secret handshakes?
Boston Tea party, American revolution,founding fathers
Shriners, swords and fez's
Shriners children hospitals, They do good work they took good care of a cousin of mine who lost a foot in an accident.

Gee without conspiracy we might not have a country.

kelly

[Danjo]

Are the Combinations (Defensive Maneuvers in USSD lingo) found in Shaolin Kempo originally from Kajukenbo, or are they from Karazenpo? Which are the same and different etc.? How about the katas?

[Karazenpo]

Are the Combinations (Defensive Maneuvers in USSD lingo) found in Shaolin Kempo originally from Kajukenbo, or are they from Karazenpo? Which are the same and different etc.? How about the katas?

Yes, some of the combinations of Karazenpo were taken from the original 21 punch counters of Kajukenbo and some were created for Karazenpo but inspired from Kajukenbo and the influences of John Leoning, Victor Gascon and Walter Godin (Godin also studied under Chow). As far as which are the same and different, I'd have to really go through the Kajukenbo material and match it up to the Karazenpo. Off hand, from recent discussions I've had, Shaolin Kempo's #6 combination is found in Kajukenbo and is basically the same as Karazenpo's original #1 when I was with G. Pesare back in '78 (he has since re-numbered and changed some of the combinations). I forget what punch counter # it corresponds to in Kajukenbo, I'd have to check the video I got from John Bishop. Shaolin Kempo's #4 combination is, I think #6 in Kajukenbo (not sure) but I know it's in there with an outward block instead of overhead. Essentially, 1-20, 22 & 26 minus 17 are found in the Karazenpo of New England. Cerio added everything else up to I believe around 39. He may have added #16 also, can't remember. SK's 1-5 kata came directly from Karazenpo of Gascon/Godin, Statue of the Crane was adopted to the system by Pesare form Okinawan's Rohai and katas 6 and 7 were created by Pesare with #6 being a series of the original combinations put together and #7 was created from a drill which inspired SK's Swift Tigers & NCK's Circle of the Panther. Some have said the original KGS forms (1-5) were inspired by the original 8 forms of Kajukenbo, others say the first 6 but regardless they are definitely different and indigneous to Karazenpo, except for #4). As a matter of fact, #4 was inspired by Okinawan Kenpo's Pinan #1 which is Shotokan's Heian 2. I know it gets a little confusing to say the least....lol

[GAB]

The perils of publishing

Once upon a time there were relatively few books, no videos/dvd's. So when you wanted to study a art, you went to an instructor of that art. Even if you already were a martial artist, you had to study with a senior of a given art.
What happened, videos came out everybody could now do thier own thing without ever leaving thier tv!
Without producing a lot of media on your style you insure
1.) Control, you know who and where things are being tought
2.() Chain of command, everybody has a senior
there are advantages to publishing and to not publishing
Todd
Hi Kai,

I agree with you LOL...

I am a very interested party in the information I am trying to find, regarding several items. I am getting input and following it up...Thanks.

Regards, Gary

[BallistikMike]

I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.
Mr. Bishop,

From the 1st page :) lol

I finally obtained the original tape set of Gary Forbach from Panther Videos. Is there a written syllabus that goes through these tapes any where or would it be possible to get one that corresponds with the curriculum you outlined earlier to know what is missing if anything. I know the tapes only go to 1st BB.

Thankyou.


This has been a very good research project I put on myself. I am glad I have done it. I think I am going to expand it to involve Mr. Ed Parkers self-defense techniques also.

With the amount of knowledge the senior members of all the systems have who post here, I feel very privlidged they take the time to answer and debat unkowns such as myself.

Granted my own beliefs and shortcomings may get the better of me in some situations, I do know I am but a rookie amongst pros.

[James Kovacich]

GAB:
One individual in the 50s-60s-70s wrote little "how to" martial arts paperbacks on almost every martial art know to western man.
Bruce Tegner according to his bio in his books if I remember correctly learned Karate, Ju Jitsu and Aikido from his parents. At that time (when he first started writing) the western world's general public hardly new anything about martial arts. He would of been considered an expert in "his field."

20's years later in the '70's, I think he would have been even more experienced. And some people are better writers than martial artists and given the "time frame" of American martial arts and the fact that he wrote about a fairly "fresh" subject to the public, I think he did a good job. :uhyeah:

[Karazenpo]

[QUOTE=John Bishop]GAB:
One individual in the 50s-60s-70s wrote little "how to" martial arts paperbacks on almost every martial art know to western man. QUOTE]

Bruce Tegner according to his bio in his books if I remember correctly learned Karate, Ju Jitsu and Aikido from his parents. At that time (when he first started writing) the western world's general public hardly new anything about martial arts. He would of been considered an expert in "his field."

20's years later in the '70's, I think he would have been even more experienced. And some people are better writers than martial artists and given the "time frame" of American martial arts and the fact that he wrote about a fairly "fresh" subject to the public, I think he did a good job. :uhyeah:

Actually, I have his books from that era, I think he did a pretty good job myself! As KenpoJoe says: "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind."

[James Kovacich]

Actually, I have his books from that era, I think he did a pretty good job myself! As KenpoJoe says: "The one eyed man is king in the land of the blind."

I do too!
I still look at his Aikido book from time to time.

[Karazenpo]

I do too!
I still look at his Aikido book from time to time.

Ya, lol, every once in great while I take a look through them too, some good stuff to build a base around back then, as good if not better (as you said) then most on the shelves at that time.

[John Bishop]

Mr. Bishop,

From the 1st page :) lol

I finally obtained the original tape set of Gary Forbach from Panther Videos. Is there a written syllabus that goes through these tapes any where or would it be possible to get one that corresponds with the curriculum you outlined earlier to know what is missing if anything. I know the tapes only go to 1st BB.

Thankyou.
The first series of Kajukenbo tapes (Panther Productions 1986) are not entirely complete as to the "Original Method".
They lack the "26 Advanced Alphabet" techniques, the "two man", and the "three man" defense techniques.
They also reflect GM Aleju Reyes's influence on Kajukenbo. All the techniques that have a "A" after them are additional techniques that Reyes added to his teachings. GM Reyes's stuck to Sijo Emperado's wishes to "create, add, but don't change the original techniques". So the "A" techniques you see on the Panther tapes are usually not taught outside of the Reyes family of black belts.

These are the requirements up to "student black". Additional requirements for higher ranks are usually decided by the individual instructor:

Kajukenbo Belt Requirements (Original Method)
http://kajukenboinfo.com/images/clear.gif
Yellow (optional rank):
Palama Set 14,
Orange (Traditionally White/Purple):
grab arts 1-7, punch counters 1-5, club counters 1&2, knife counters 1&2, Palama set. 14,1,2,3
Purple:
grab arts 1-15, punch counters 1-9, club counters 1-4, knife counters 1-4, Palama set. 14,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,
Blue:
punch counters 1-12, club counters 1-7, knife counters 1-7, 2 man attacks 1&2, Palama set. 14,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
Green:
punch counters 1-21, club counter 1-8, knife counter 1-8, Palama set.14,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13, 2 man attacks 1-5, alphabets a,b,c,
Brown:
club counters 1-11, knife counters 1-11, 2 man attacks 1-8, alphabets a,b,c,d,e,
Student Black:
club counters 1-15, knife counters 1-15, 3 man attack 1, alphabets a,b,c,d,e,f,g

[Danjo]

Yes, some of the combinations of Karazenpo were taken from the original 21 punch counters of Kajukenbo and some were created for Karazenpo but inspired from Kajukenbo and the influences of John Leoning, Victor Gascon and Walter Godin (Godin also studied under Chow). As far as which are the same and different, I'd have to really go through the Kajukenbo material and match it up to the Karazenpo. Off hand, from recent discussions I've had, Shaolin Kempo's #6 combination is found in Kajukenbo and is basically the same as Karazenpo's original #1 when I was with G. Pesare back in '78 (he has since re-numbered and changed some of the combinations). I forget what punch counter # it corresponds to in Kajukenbo, I'd have to check the video I got from John Bishop. Shaolin Kempo's #4 combination is, I think #6 in Kajukenbo (not sure) but I know it's in there with an outward block instead of overhead. Essentially, 1-20, 22 & 26 minus 17 are found in the Karazenpo of New England. Cerio added everything else up to I believe around 39. He may have added #16 also, can't remember. SK's 1-5 kata came directly from Karazenpo of Gascon/Godin, Statue of the Crane was adopted to the system by Pesare form Okinawan's Rohai and katas 6 and 7 were created by Pesare with #6 being a series of the original combinations put together and #7 was created from a drill which inspired SK's Swift Tigers & NCK's Circle of the Panther. Some have said the original KGS forms (1-5) were inspired by the original 8 forms of Kajukenbo, others say the first 6 but regardless they are definitely different and indigneous to Karazenpo, except for #4). As a matter of fact, #4 was inspired by Okinawan Kenpo's Pinan #1 which is Shotokan's Heian 2. I know it gets a little confusing to say the least....lol
Thanks Prof., Just curious as to how much had changed. Mattera left the combo's the same in the USSD from Villari, but before I stopped training there, they were beginning to change the way they were done (imho, not for the better either) it seemed that every master there wanted to change something just so he could say that he did. I would rather that they adhere to what John Bishop said about add and create but leave the original stuff alone. It would make things entirely less confusing. My impression was when I was at the USSD that the skill of most of the practitioners was "a mile wide but only an inch deep", to use an old phrase. They taught every technique, but the proficiency requirements weren't very high. Hence, a lot of head knowledge, but little muscle knowledge. If that makes any sense. BTW, I am only going from my own personal observations here from ,my time training there and testing at the Lake Forest HQ. I have always pushed myself like we used to do in Shotokan, but there weren't many that would. I still train almost every day in the material I learned there just to keep it fresh and solid. I use the Villari DVDs to help me with remembering the material and I'm even going forward with the upper brown and black belt material. Hopefully in June, when I will have time, I can find a good dojo to train in. I notice John Bishop's school is only about 15 minutes from where I live. It would be nice to get some serious training. :)

[Karazenpo]

Thanks Prof., Just curious as to how much had changed. Mattera left the combo's the same in the USSD from Villari, but before I stopped training there, they were beginning to change the way they were done (imho, not for the better either) it seemed that every master there wanted to change something just so he could say that he did. I would rather that they adhere to what John Bishop said about add and create but leave the original stuff alone. It would make things entirely less confusing. My impression was when I was at the USSD that the skill of most of the practitioners was "a mile wide but only an inch deep", to use an old phrase. They taught every technique, but the proficiency requirements weren't very high. Hence, a lot of head knowledge, but little muscle knowledge. If that makes any sense. BTW, I am only going from my own personal observations here from ,my time training there and testing at the Lake Forest HQ. I have always pushed myself like we used to do in Shotokan, but there weren't many that would. I still train almost every day in the material I learned there just to keep it fresh and solid. I use the Villari DVDs to help me with remembering the material and I'm even going forward with the upper brown and black belt material. Hopefully in June, when I will have time, I can find a good dojo to train in. I notice John Bishop's school is only about 15 minutes from where I live. It would be nice to get some serious training. :)

You're right on the money, Danjo. Create, add but leave the original material alone and that's essentially what Villari did. For the most part, he took what Cerio had originally taught him and that was his curriculum to black belt and little beyond. After that, he added and created his own system. I found an old book of Cerio, in paperback, doing techniques and some were the some punch techniques and combinations and they were the same as I was taught by Villari's in the 70's. The forms themselves, don't deviate that much from what Pesare taught Cerio but there are some individual stylistic differences but I think you get that everywhere from what I've seen, even in Shotokan. As far as every master wanting to change something just to say they did, well, it goes a little deeper than that. It's so they can say, "Look world, I've discovered a new system, now I'm a 10th dan", lol. Yes, a problem with the Villari schools is "a mile wide but only an inch deep" as far as really 'honing' their skills for each rank, true the knowledge is there, just not enough time to develop it to its potential for each rank. However, Gm. Villari has a saying for that: "The cream always rises to the top." As far as the old days went (70's), you didn't have to push yourself because the instructors did it for you, lol, and 'contact' wasn't anything you had to ask for, it was part of the curriculum but in time everything changed.

[Danjo]

You're right on the money, Danjo. Create, add but leave the original material alone and that's essentially what Villari did. For the most part, he took what Cerio had originally taught him and that was his curriculum to black belt and little beyond. After that, he added and created his own system. I found an old book of Cerio, in paperback, doing techniques and some were the some punch techniques and combinations and they were the same as I was taught by Villari's in the 70's. The forms themselves, don't deviate that much from what Pesare taught Cerio but there are some individual stylistic differences but I think you get that everywhere from what I've seen, even in Shotokan. As far as every master wanting to change something just to say they did, well, it goes a little deeper than that. It's so they can say, "Look world, I've discovered a new system, now I'm a 10th dan", lol. Yes, a problem with the Villari schools is "a mile wide but only an inch deep" as far as really 'honing' their skills for each rank, true the knowledge is there, just not enough time to develop it to its potential for each rank. However, Gm. Villari has a saying for that: "The cream always rises to the top." As far as the old days went (70's), you didn't have to push yourself because the instructors did it for you, lol, and 'contact' wasn't anything you had to ask for, it was part of the curriculum but in time everything changed.
Seems to me a lot of this could be solved by doing what my old Shotokan instructor used to do. He wouldn't hesitate to fail someone for their green belt test. He'd let them get through their first two white belt tests if they seemed to be able to memorize the material fairly well, but by the time they got their green belt, they had to have the basics and the first three hein kata down well. Now in Kempo they have a different color of belt for every test but the theory could still be the same: no green belt without proficiency. Few would give a damn about someone that said they were a yellow belt etc., but when they get to green, you expect to see some skill.

[The Kai]

A tad off topic, but.... How much does the USSD strss the whole Shaolin Thing?

From the websites it seems that they are really trying to writw histort a tad, plus they seem to post up any picture of the touring performance group in robes
Todd

[Danjo]

A tad off topic, but.... How much does the USSD strss the whole Shaolin Thing?

From the websites it seems that they are really trying to writw histort a tad, plus they seem to post up any picture of the touring performance group in robes
Todd
They stress the hell out of it. Demasco and Mattera can be seen in this month's Black Belt in the front editorial standing in front of the Shaolin Temple in China in front of the Monument dedicated to the USSD. Not that the monks are for sale or anything...

[The Kai]

Is'nt that a price tag under those robes.So basically a art with almost no (as in zip, zilch or nada) connection to the original temple, is sonehow quite magically shaolin wu shu

todd

[Karazenpo]

Seems to me a lot of this could be solved by doing what my old Shotokan instructor used to do. He wouldn't hesitate to fail someone for their green belt test. He'd let them get through their first two white belt tests if they seemed to be able to memorize the material fairly well, but by the time they got their green belt, they had to have the basics and the first three hein kata down well. Now in Kempo they have a different color of belt for every test but the theory could still be the same: no green belt without proficiency. Few would give a damn about someone that said they were a yellow belt etc., but when they get to green, you expect to see some skill.

Here's what I do and here's how I feel it should be done in general, no matter what system you're in. First, it would be psychologically upsetting to fail someone in a test, not to mention the peer pressure issues, especially with the younger students, but if you are the one that does the testing and you are the one that puts the student up, then YOU are the one that failed the test, not your student (with the exception of one thing I'll get into later). When I put someone's name on a list for testing, I have already evaluated that person in my mind and decided they are ready for the next rank. Now, next week or two weeks later, whatever the test date is, will not make much difference from the time you called it and put him or her up. So, for all intensive purposes, the student is already at that level and should pass, otherwise, you simply hold them back. The 'test' is a test of 'spirit' or 'heart' to see how well the student holds up under physical and mental stress. It's certainly not a test of knowledge because, you, the instructor, should know what you taught your student and what your student knows. It's certainly not a test of skill level either at this point because you already evaluated that before you put the student on the list. So, the only thing that could happen is he/she has a bad day or can't hold up to that type of pressure, freezes and buckles. Usually, it's the 'bad day' thing because we also run stress type classes and pre-tests to get the student acquainted to mental and physical turmoil, lol. In an actual test, if the student starts messing up I isolate them in a sense that other students are unaware of what's going on, maybe they are facing the wall or in another room, whatever, but they don't observe the student's total performance as to know they're messing up bigtime and are failing. What is then done is at the end they all appear to get their belts and certificates, however, the student(s) who fails has his/her diploma held in the office and the belt is simply honorary until they privately make up the portion of the test the screwed up. We help work with them on this. This way, it takes away any embarrassment and peer pressures. If they choose to tell someone they failed and their belt is only honorary, that's up to them but it doesn't come from our lips, the staff. This very rarely happens (but it does) as we just simply hold students back until we are pretty comfortable about promoting them. Remember, rank is subjective so if your school has a rule to send your students to your instructor or your seniors, organization, etc. for ranking and they differ with your opinion then this of course won't work. If you're out on the floor teaching and you know your students then this system will work for anyone!

[kelly keltner]

Hi,

Thank you for finding the site and posting it. Some are much better at this internet surfing than me...

Hi Kel,

You are so right about those guys in that huddle LOL... Boy I am going to have to brush up on the code, now that you have one.

It is'nt the conspiricy that gets you it is plotting the crime...Wait that is redundant.

They could not prove "Murder" so they went for conspiracy to commit.
It is especially good when you have the perp turn and say everyone else did it, when they get thru talking they get to walking...Never cared for snitch's.

To bad the system has to rely on them so much, funny they will convict on them and not DNA...Oh well, another time and place.

How is Robert Blake doing have'nt heard much on him. I believe he used to hang around the (Sifu Leoning) dojo on Lankershim in North Hollywood in the 60's. I am not sure about the one on Burbank Blvd. though.

Here is a real coincidence. Nudies was a place all western people and actors went. He was originally on Burbank Blvd. right in the same area as the first dojo, (Gascon and Leoning) then he moved and was right next to the other one on Lankershim Blvd. Hmmmmm I wonder????

I wonder if they conspired (Leoning and Gascon), or if it was the three who visited in the night????:idunno:

Anyone know???

Happy New year.

Regards, Gary
"I wonder if they conspired (Leoning and Gascon), or if it was the three who visited in the night????" Gary



Since it is right around Xmas. I was wondering if you were refering to the three wise men.
HA HA LOL
kelly

[GAB]

Here's what I do and here's how I feel it should be done in general, no matter what system you're in. First, it would be psychologically upsetting to fail someone in a test, not to mention the peer pressure issues, especially with the younger students, but if you are the one that does the testing and you are the one that puts the student up, then YOU are the one that failed the test, not your student (with the exception of one thing I'll get into later). When I put someone's name on a list for testing, I have already evaluated that person in my mind and decided they are ready for the next rank. Now, next week or two weeks later, whatever the test date is, will not make much difference from the time you called it and put him or her up. So, for all intensive purposes, the student is already at that level and should pass, otherwise, you simply hold them back. The 'test' is a test of 'spirit' or 'heart' to see how well the student holds up under physical and mental stress. It's certainly not a test of knowledge because, you, the instructor, should know what you taught your student and what your student knows. It's certainly not a test of skill level either at this point because you already evaluated that before you put the student on the list. So, the only thing that could happen is he/she has a bad day or can't hold up to that type of pressure, freezes and buckles. Usually, it's the 'bad day' thing because we also run stress type classes and pre-tests to get the student acquainted to mental and physical turmoil, lol. In an actual test, if the student starts messing up I isolate them in a sense that other students are unaware of what's going on, maybe they are facing the wall or in another room, whatever, but they don't observe the student's total performance as to know they're messing up bigtime and are failing. What is then done is at the end they all appear to get their belts and certificates, however, the student(s) who fails has his/her diploma held in the office and the belt is simply honorary until they privately make up the portion of the test the screwed up. We help work with them on this. This way, it takes away any embarrassment and peer pressures. If they choose to tell someone they failed and their belt is only honorary, that's up to them but it doesn't come from our lips, the staff. This very rarely happens (but it does) as we just simply hold students back until we are pretty comfortable about promoting them. Remember, rank is subjective so if your school has a rule to send your students to your instructor or your seniors, organization, etc. for ranking and they differ with your opinion then this of course won't work. If you're out on the floor teaching and you know your students then this system will work for anyone!
Hi Joe,

Yes, I think that is a very good way to approach it. When you are coaching someone you are not going to let them fail. Basically it is the failure of the person who the trust has been put, that would then have dropped the ball.

There are many ways to do the promoting, I feel as you this is a good and honorable way to do it.

Honesty is the best policy.

Regards, Gary

[GAB]

"I wonder if they conspired (Leoning and Gascon), or if it was the three who visited in the night????" Gary



Since it is right around Xmas. I was wondering if you were refering to the three wise men.
HA HA LOL
kelly
Hi Kel,

Well that was not what was running through the mind at the time, but I did get some red points and called a frigging bozo...

You know what they say about behavoiral modification, some will do it for praise and others do it for attention. Then others enjoy anonymity.

I would personally prefer an insult on the board, then we could discuss it.

Oh well, think I will surf.

Regards, Gary

[Danjo]

Prof. Excellent post. Okay, here, for the first time in public, is the story of how I failed my shotokan green belt test the first time I took it. When I was twelve, I got pissed because two of the people that started after I did, were being tested for green when I was not ( the fact that they were adults and had only started three months after I did was lost on me at twelve). I whined about it to a fellow student of mine,and it got back to my instructor. So, he came up to me and said that I could test with the group the next Thursday. Well, I paid my five dollars, and began the test. I crapped out about two thirds of the way through it (after the 500 punch and kick techniques) and couldn't finish the sparring section at all. Soooo I flunked and learned a lesson in humility all at the same time. Three months later, I had my green belt. I never tried to put myself up for a test again! :)

[Karazenpo]

Thanks Gary, thanks Danjo.

[Danjo]

Prof. Shuras,

How difficult is it to transfer from Shaolin Kempo to Karazenpo? I notice that there are a couple of schools in my area (though one looks as if they only have class one night per week). You mentioned you and your wife having fits trying to catch the kids that have tranfered up, but I assumed that that was mainly due to their lack of proficiency.

[Karazenpo]

Prof. Shuras,

How difficult is it to transfer from Shaolin Kempo to Karazenpo? I notice that there are a couple of schools in my area (though one looks as if they only have class one night per week). You mentioned you and your wife having fits trying to catch the kids that have tranfered up, but I assumed that that was mainly due to their lack of proficiency.

Hi Danjo, no, let me elaborate on that a little more. It's not Shaolin Kempo at all that we had a problem getting a couple of students up to par on but the commonality of these students were that they were from Mattera's organization in California. Many feel the Shaolin Kempo schools on the east coast hold themselves to a much higher standard. I've read this on many forums but have also experienced it first hand. I have friends in the Villari organization out here that are highly talented and do a good job propagating the art. I've heard the same about some of the east coast United Studios also. I also know many of former Shaolin Kempo guys who have broken off from either Villari or USSD in the last 5-10 years (some less) and developed quite an impressive reputation for themselves here on the east coast, some are members of this forum. This is not to put down any west coast schools that are not part of the 'norm' out there for I am sure there are some, I guess you could say 'rebel' schools, within the organization that are doing a helluva job and in my experiences, they will be the first wave that will soon go independant or hook up with someone else more in line with their views on business, training and promotions. Shaolin Kempo from the Villari lineage is Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, it is the closest thing out there available to the 'masses' up to around nidan level. Remember, Gascon-Pesare-Cerio-Villari, it was S. George Pesare who continued Sonny Gascon's teachings in New England. It was Nick Cerio who learned this from Pesare and it was Fred Villari who learned it from Cerio in those early years. By 1974, Cerio made some rather radical changes although the foundation is still recognizable as KGS but Villari's kept things very close to what Cerio taught him. To this day, the original forms and combinations of KGS taught back in the late 50's and 60's by Gascon & Godin and then Pesare are very close to what the Villari schools and offshoots schools teach today. Remember, despite what Mattera says now, 'his' system is not 'his' system, it's 'Villari's system' and it was Villari who was his only true instructor. He spent very little time with Cerio, not the over three decades that he states today.

[Danjo]

Hi Danjo, no, let me elaborate on that a little more. It's not Shaolin Kempo at all that we had a problem getting a couple of students up to par on but the commonality of these students were that they were from Mattera's organization in California. Many feel the Shaolin Kempo schools on the east coast hold themselves to a much higher standard. I've read this on many forums but have also experienced it first hand. I have friends in the Villari organization out here that are highly talented and do a good job propagating the art. I've heard the same about some of the east coast United Studios also. I also know many of former Shaolin Kempo guys who have broken off from either Villari or USSD in the last 5-10 years (some less) and developed quite an impressive reputation for themselves here on the east coast, some are members of this forum. This is not to put down any west coast schools that are not part of the 'norm' out there for I am sure there are some, I guess you could say 'rebel' schools, within the organization that are doing a helluva job and in my experiences, they will be the first wave that will soon go independant or hook up with someone else more in line with their views on business, training and promotions. Shaolin Kempo from the Villari lineage is Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, it is the closest thing out there available to the 'masses' up to around nidan level. Remember, Gascon-Pesare-Cerio-Villari, it was S. George Pesare who continued Sonny Gascon's teachings in New England. It was Nick Cerio who learned this from Pesare and it was Fred Villari who learned it from Cerio in those early years. By 1974, Cerio made some rather radical changes although the foundation is still recognizable as KGS but Villari's kept things very close to what Cerio taught him. To this day, the original forms and combinations of KGS taught back in the late 50's and 60's by Gascon & Godin and then Pesare are very close to what the Villari schools and offshoots schools teach today. Remember, despite what Mattera says now, 'his' system is not 'his' system, it's 'Villari's system' and it was Villari who was his only true instructor. He spent very little time with Cerio, not the over three decades that he states today.
Ah so. That was what I was curious about. My Chief Instructor in "Mattera's" USSD was a black belt from Villari. She was actually pretty good and would really allow us to work out hard and spar hard. But, alas, she caught living hell for it and now is back with Villari's organization. The dojo that we trained at was put under a "red belt" who was actually a green-brown-stripe. So I left the USSD and have been training on my own. The one Villari school in my area is too far to drive to, so I am waiting until the Summer to start live training. Karazenpo sounds like it might be what I am looking for and there is a school in my area. That is why I wanted to know how similar Shaolin Kempo, Karazenpo and Kajukenbo were. Is it the same story with Kajukenbo as with Karazenpo, or are there greater differences? Maybe that's best asked of John Bishop?

[John Bishop]

Is it the same story with Kajukenbo as with Karazenpo, or are there greater differences? Maybe that's best asked of John Bishop?
There are several variations in Kajukenbo.
There are 4 main systems, "Original Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", and "Won Hop Kuen Do".
Within those systems are "subsystems". As a example, subsystems of "Chuan Fa" would be the "Gaylord Method", and the "Ramos Method".

A lot of creativity and change happened when instructors left Hawaii, and lost touch with the "Original Method" (not like now where everything can be videod and passed on).

Kajukenbo was evolving in the 60s-70s to a more "Chinese methodology".
Chuan Fa was the first evolution, with more Kung Fu techniques, and Chinese terminology. It was developed at Sijo Emperado's request by Al Delacruz and Al Dacascos.
The idea at the time was that Kajukenbo would eventually evolve to the point that it was primarily a Chinese art. More Kung Fu and Chin-na were added to the Chuan Fa to create "Won Hop Kuen Do". That was basically going to be the name for Kajukenbo in Chinese. "Won Hop Kuen Do = in Chinese "combined fist arts".
Anyway, there was resistance to change by some of the old timers who wanted to keep the hard style "Original Method". And several Hawaiian instructors had spread the Original Method around the world thru their military travels, so it just would not die.
But Chuan Fa was also spreading.
And Won Hop Kuen Do, with champions like Al Dacascos, Malia Dacascos, Mark Dacascos, Eric Lee, Karen Shepard, and Karyn Turner, was spreading around America and Europe also.
So at this point there is various styles of Kajukenbo in about 25 countries.

[Danjo]

What style did Karazenpo derive from, and what are the main differences between KJKB and it?

[John Bishop]

What style did Karazenpo derive from, and what are the main differences between KJKB and it?It came from the "Original Method". The other branches didn't start developing until the late 60s.

I've haven't seen much Karazenpo or Shaolin Kenpo techniques. And there were many innovations that went into Kajukenbo since Sonny Gascon broke away, so I can't make much of a comparison.
Their's really no quality Karazempo instructors in my area (L.A Co./Orange Co.), so I don't have anyone to check with. You have to be careful when looking at Karazenpo instructors. A lot of them got their training in a offshoot system, and then joined the Karazenpo BBS. Their quality may be excellent, but their techniques may not be Karazenpo.
Since you've trained in Shaolin Kempo, make some visits and check out the Karazenpo people. Like any organization, there are a few flakes in the system, one big one being in Orange County. Feel free to email me if you need to check anyone out.

[Karazenpo]

Danjo, the farther from the source one goes, the more dilution of the original art you have, which could be good, could be bad, but one thing is for certain, it's not the original art. Then again, you won't find any totally original art out there today period, in any system, due to the human factor of change which creates individual stylistic differences. Look at the older traditonal systems, on the Karate section of this forum someone had posted that at a tournament they saw Bassai performed four radically different ways. Here's what I can tell you from personal experience as far as KGS goes. Sonny Gascon, KGS's fouinder, taught George Pesare and George Pesare taught Nick Cerio who in turn taught Fred Villari and the rest is history. Villari left Cerio in '71 before the advent of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. The Shaolin Kempo Villari taught up to black belt level, actually around 2nd dan (Villari made up to 2nd under Cerio but parted ways before the completion of his one year probation, so he's listed as a shodan in one of Cerio's books) is a mildly modified version of Karazenpo, after that Villari's Kempo took a strong Kung Fu twist which started with the form Sho Tung Kwok. Hansuki was adopted from the Chow/Chun connection of Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. Swift Tigers was inspired by Pesare's #7 kata, other than that, it's all Villari's system at that point. Anyone who made black belt in Shaolin Kempo the 70's and even the early 80's and possibly a little beyond, has about as close as you're going to come outside of going back to George Pesare. I will venture to say the Villari schools probably still teach the same curriculum to black belt as they did in the 70's but I'd have to check. I first studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, all original forms and Pesare's original 21 combinations were included in the Villari curriculum with very little modification and I'll even go back to circa. 1960, for I have sen old black & white films of this early Karazenpo first from Prof. Cerio in 1992 and later (2003), a different film from Gm. Pesare. Remember, Danjo, early or 'original' Karazenpo did not have the vast curriculum it has expanded into today, neither did Kajukenbo. So, if you asking 'original' then it is included in Shaolin Kempo. The same forms in SK that my instructor and I needed back in the 70's to make black belt are still the requirements today along with almost all the numerical combinations (we needed 1-21, 26 & 28, now the 'standard' to black is 1-26). As far as the current USSD (Mattera's organization) goes, I had access to two of their training manuels form different years and there is very, very little difference in the curriculum up to black belt as what Cerio taught Villari and Villari carried on, not at all enough to call it a different system.

In closing, I think the problem is not the techniques and/or the forms but the actual training methods and promotions. Yes, many of the 'newer' instructors may be teaching only the 'surface arts' because of the quick rise through the ranks and not enough honing of the skills to fill instructor slots but please keep this in mind also. The much older instructors of karate styles in this country and I mean starting in 1946 into the 60's, including U.S. servicemen, ONLY had training in the 'surface arts' and also experienced a 'rather' quick rise in ranks when they began teaching and promoting black belts in this country. Look how many have become UNDISPUTED champions and legends through self development over the many decades! We seem to either forget this or want to forget this, I don't know which but it's certainly fact. Something to think about....................

[Karazenpo]

-

[Karazenpo]

Gotta agree with him:


2005, 02:32 AM
scfgabe
Martial Talk
Yellow Belt
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ogden, Utah
Art and Rank : American Kenpo; Beginner
Posts: 25

Re: Kenpo in the 21st Century

Every Martial Art inherently evolves over time because it is an art that is passed on through an instructor/student relationship. Each instructor will make subtle (or sometimes drastic) changes as they teach based on their preferences, no matter how organized or strict the curriculum may seem.

[tshadowchaser]

Folks please forgive me for going off topic but I must say that reading this thread has been a pleasure. Much good information has been given and passed and for the most part everyone has been polite and respectful.
This thread and threads like it are the reason this forum was founded.
Keep up the good work

Sheldon

[Danjo]

Danjo, the farther from the source one goes, the more dilution of the original art you have, which could be good, could be bad, but one thing is for certain, it's not the original art. Then again, you won't find any totally original art out there today period, in any system, due to the human factor of change which creates individual stylistic differences. Look at the older traditonal systems, on the Karate section of this forum someone had posted that at a tournament they saw Bassai performed four radically different ways. Here's what I can tell you from personal experience as far as KGS goes. Sonny Gascon, KGS's fouinder, taught George Pesare and George Pesare taught Nick Cerio who in turn taught Fred Villari and the rest is history. Villari left Cerio in '71 before the advent of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. The Shaolin Kempo Villari taught up to black belt level, actually around 2nd dan (Villari made up to 2nd under Cerio but parted ways before the completion of his one year probation, so he's listed as a shodan in one of Cerio's books) is a mildly modified version of Karazenpo, after that Villari's Kempo took a strong Kung Fu twist which started with the form Sho Tung Kwok. Hansuki was adopted from the Chow/Chun connection of Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. Swift Tigers was inspired by Pesare's #7 kata, other than that, it's all Villari's system at that point. Anyone who made black belt in Shaolin Kempo the 70's and even the early 80's and possibly a little beyond, has about as close as you're going to come outside of going back to George Pesare. I will venture to say the Villari schools probably still teach the same curriculum to black belt as they did in the 70's but I'd have to check. I first studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, all original forms and Pesare's original 21 combinations were included in the Villari curriculum with very little modification and I'll even go back to circa. 1960, for I have sen old black & white films of this early Karazenpo first from Prof. Cerio in 1992 and later (2003), a different film from Gm. Pesare. Remember, Danjo, early or 'original' Karazenpo did not have the vast curriculum it has expanded into today, neither did Kajukenbo. So, if you asking 'original' then it is included in Shaolin Kempo. The same forms in SK that my instructor and I needed back in the 70's to make black belt are still the requirements today along with almost all the numerical combinations (we needed 1-21, 26 & 28, now the 'standard' to black is 1-26). As far as the current USSD (Mattera's organization) goes, I had access to two of their training manuels form different years and there is very, very little difference in the curriculum up to black belt as what Cerio taught Villari and Villari carried on, not at all enough to call it a different system.

In closing, I think the problem is not the techniques and/or the forms but the actual training methods and promotions. Yes, many of the 'newer' instructors may be teaching only the 'surface arts' because of the quick rise through the ranks and not enough honing of the skills to fill instructor slots but please keep this in mind also. The much older instructors of karate styles in this country and I mean starting in 1946 into the 60's, including U.S. servicemen, ONLY had training in the 'surface arts' and also experienced a 'rather' quick rise in ranks when they began teaching and promoting black belts in this country. Look how many have become UNDISPUTED champions and legends through self development over the many decades! We seem to either forget this or want to forget this, I don't know which but it's certainly fact. Something to think about....................
Thanks Prof. I was mainly wondering with an eye to training in a style that was simliar to Shaolin Kempo. It certainly doesn't have to be exact, but at least not totally unfamiliar would be nice.

I have to agree with what you said regarding some of the old school practitioners. I knew a few who had been stationed in Okinawa or Korea for only a year and yet they got their black belts. Yet, for the most part, these guys seemed pretty tough. Back to the old adage of the individual making a system work I guess. Sometimes I wonder whether the Okinawans or Koreans didn't really care about ranking Americans and never expected anything to come of it so they just gave them their rank?

At any rate, I'm looking for a place to train come July and it looks like either Kajukenbo or Karazenpo will be the thing to do.

[Kempojujutsu]

Last week (2-7-2005) I ordered the 4 self defense tapes. Century/Panther is now offering the old vintage videos now on DVD or VHS for $9.99 if anyone wants to complete there kajukenbo series. I pick up the 4 SD tapes, to check out Kajukenbo. s Also to see how close it is to Kempo Jujutsu.

[KENPOJOE]

Danjo, the farther from the source one goes, the more dilution of the original art you have, which could be good, could be bad, but one thing is for certain, it's not the original art. Then again, you won't find any totally original art out there today period, in any system, due to the human factor of change which creates individual stylistic differences. Look at the older traditonal systems, on the Karate section of this forum someone had posted that at a tournament they saw Bassai performed four radically different ways. Here's what I can tell you from personal experience as far as KGS goes. Sonny Gascon, KGS's fouinder, taught George Pesare and George Pesare taught Nick Cerio who in turn taught Fred Villari and the rest is history. Villari left Cerio in '71 before the advent of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. The Shaolin Kempo Villari taught up to black belt level, actually around 2nd dan (Villari made up to 2nd under Cerio but parted ways before the completion of his one year probation, so he's listed as a shodan in one of Cerio's books) is a mildly modified version of Karazenpo, after that Villari's Kempo took a strong Kung Fu twist which started with the form Sho Tung Kwok

Hi Folks,
The legacy of the karazenpo lineage is a trail that I consider fortunate to have seen in it's myrid formats over years. Fred Villari's Shaolim Kempo is not Nick Cerio's Kenpo and NCK is not George Pesare's Kenpo and Pesare's Kenpo is not Victor "Sonny" Gascon's Karazenpo Goshinjutsu. The styles/systems are intertwined links of chain, but each has been added to or deleted from or changed by each consectutive individual, as well as their respective student who they were influenced by. A person is the total of their life experiences and influences in their lives.

Hansuki was adopted from the Chow/Chun connection of Goshinjitsu Kai Chinese Kempo. Swift Tigers was inspired by Pesare's #7 kata,
I've had the honor and privilage of seeing Bill Chun Jr. perform his father's form and can easily see Prof. Chow's influences and see how the present form taught is a conglomeration of several different sources [such as James Mitose's Kosho Ryu yoga breathing exercises and Prof Chow's techniques]. I don't believe that Swift Tigers came from Pesare's 7 Kata but rather from other sources [although I am researching it and have been for awhile] It seems to have more of Chow's or other chinese influences but they have yet to be identified.

other than that, it's all Villari's system at that point. Anyone who made black belt in Shaolin Kempo the 70's and even the early 80's and possibly a little beyond, has about as close as you're going to come outside of going back to George Pesare.,

I'd actually say closer to Nick Cerio's kenpo [circa 1970's]


I will venture to say the Villari schools probably still teach the same curriculum to black belt as they did in the 70's but I'd have to check. I first studied at Gm. Pesare's school in 1978, all original forms and Pesare's original 21 combinations were included in the Villari curriculum with very little modification and I'll even go back to circa. 1960, for I have sen old black & white films of this early Karazenpo first from Prof. Cerio in 1992 and later (2003), a different film from Gm. Pesare. Remember, Danjo, early or 'original' Karazenpo did not have the vast curriculum it has expanded into today, neither did Kajukenbo. So, if you asking 'original' then it is included in Shaolin Kempo. The same forms in SK that my instructor and I needed back in the 70's to make black belt are still the requirements today along with almost all the numerical combinations (we needed 1-21, 26 & 28, now the 'standard' to black is 1-26). As far as the current USSD (Mattera's organization) goes, I had access to two of their training manuels form different years and there is very, very little difference in the curriculum up to black belt as what Cerio taught Villari and Villari carried on, not at all enough to call it a different system.
Having seen the "evolution" of these various styles was my impetus to start to research them by asking the people who were actually there when these things happened and get the stories directly from them. I have encouraged these people to write about their experiences and tell the world the "truth" about many of the incidents that comprised these styles in their present state. I can only hope that they heed my advice and commit to that endevor. The truly sad thing is that many of their own parent organizations do not use those individual's insights to add to the "well of knowledge" and so it becomes lost to all.

In closing, I think the problem is not the techniques and/or the forms but the actual training methods and promotions. Yes, many of the 'newer' instructors may b
e teaching only the 'surface arts' because of the quick rise through the ranks and not enough honing of the skills to fill instructor slots but please keep this in mind also. The much older instructors of karate styles in this country and I mean starting in 1946 into the 60's, including U.S. servicemen, ONLY had training in the 'surface arts' and also experienced a 'rather' quick rise in ranks when they began teaching and promoting black belts in this country. Look how many have become UNDISPUTED champions and legends through self development over the many decades! We seem to either forget this or want to forget this, I don't know which but it's certainly fact. Something to think about....................

This is my 200th post to martialtalk and it's been an interesting journey so far...I started posting on the AOL Kenpo message board when some of the top people in the kenpo/kempo groups would post to it and the information was incredible. I'm glad to see Martialtalk continue that tradition.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE

[Danjo]

Thanks for your reply. My big interest in the differences etc. has to do with where I will go to study starting in July. I have a brown belt in Shaolin Kempo, but do not wish to continue in it in the local dojos due to numerous factors that include price and quality of instruction. I began by looking into local Karazenpo schools on the internet and asked John Bishop for his opinions etc. Then, I realized that his school was only 20 minutes away from me. Given that Kajukenbo and Karazenpo were where Shaolin Kempo came from, I thought it would be a good fit to train in them with my existing background. The extensive questions reagarding the differences etc. were due to my having never seen Kajukenbo or Karazenpo in action. Now, I have one of Prof. Halbuna's tapes (purple belt) and have seen a few clips of Kajukenbo on the net. Again, I asked John Bishop for his opinion as to how typical these were etc. and he was very helpful. I have not been able to see any Karazenpo video, but the Kajukenbo seems fairly close to what I have been studying in terms of movement. The combinations are a good deal different, though even there there are a couple that are pretty much the same so it looks as if it would be a pretty good fit for me. I just want to study at a good school that teaches this type of martial art. Whether the name is Shaolin Kempo, Karazenpo, or Kajukenbo doesn't matter as much to me as the quality, price and convenience. It's all part of the same Ohana. (a cool term that Sigung Bishop and Prof. Shuras have introduced me to recently).

[Seabrook]

GAB,

Did you get the pdf file of my book? I got this message in my email system this morning (I sent the book to you yesterday):


This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

THIS IS A WARNING MESSAGE ONLY.

YOU DO NOT NEED TO RESEND YOUR MESSAGE.

Delivery to the following recipients has been delayed.

*******

Send me an email and let me know. THANKS!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[GAB]

Hi Jamie,

Yes I got It!

Thanks for the extra effort.

Regards, Gary

[John DeMartini]

Hi

This is my first post to this site and I thought I might be able to contribute something of relevance, although about a year or so late.

In Bruce Haines' "Karate and it's Development in Hawaii to 1959," there is no mention of a John Leoning as a black belt of William Chow. It only mentions Paul Yamaguchi, Masaichi Oshiro, Ed Parker, and Adriano Emperado. Apparently, Haines did not interview Sijo Emperado and there is no mention of his black belts at that time.

I do seem to remember a book by James Lee called "Modern Kung-Fu Karate" that had a small bio on Prof. Chow and I seem to remember a John Leone being listed as one of Prof. Chow's black belts teaching on the mainland. However, since I no longer have access to this book I cannot check this out.

I must say that I have enjoyed Mr. Bishop's articles in the various martial arts publications over the years and his research seems pretty thorough to me. Thanks for all that you are doing for the martial arts. We need more people like you Mr. Bishop.

[KGS BBS]

I just stumbled upon this former topic which I had contributed to under another screen name: 'Karazenpo' a while ago. Now that some time has passed and much more has been discovered, it's been found that the form Swift Tigers was indeed inspired by SGM. Pesare's #7 form and Prof. Nick Cerio's version of #7 is Circle of the Panther as I had previously proposed. In the very early 90's Prof. Cerio told us Panther was from #6 but it had been a while since he studied under SGM Pesare at the time (almost 25 years) and it appears he actually mean't #7 as # 6 is nothing like it. Yes, Swift Tigers deviates from the original as GM. Villari had radically altered it adding a strong Kung Fu flavor, plus the fact is he must have learned the form while studying under Cerio who also radically altered it. Sensei Matt Barnes did a nice breakdown/comparison of Swift Tigers & Circle of the Panther-Matt has also seen the original #7. Again, the connection is most definitely there.

The core of this Kempo only goes back to Nick Cerio THROUGH George Pesare as I had stated. This is why I say Pesare's is the closest you're going to get to the original stuff for for Cerio also alterred it somewhat when he passed it on to Villari and then changed it radically by 1974. SGM. Pesare has kept the original forms the same. He added and deleted some combinations over the years but he has planned to incorporate the original techniques back into his system. I can prove this very easily. SGM. Pesare's DVD is out and covers the 1960's, early on to the late 60's. It shows Prof. Cerio as a white belt evolving through the ranks and also features Mr. Pesare's first black belt, GM. Roger Carpenter. It also covers the combonations, forms and drills. This film will look very, very familiar to any Shaolin Kempo practitioner who traces their roots to Villari. The skill levels of these early pioneers is something to behold. Don't take my word for it, it can be obtained by e-mailing SGM. Pesare at gpeseare7@hotmail.com. As they say, 'a picture is worth a thousand words'.

Please bear in mind, GGM. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, the founder of KGS who was very highly respected amongst his peers and seniors as a true kempo fighter, went back to Hawaii in 1969. Professor Walter L. N. Godin, a name in his own right, went on to found Godin's Chinese Kenpo BUT contrary to what many believe, Prof. Godin, although a contributor to the system, did not spend that much time w/ GGM. Gascon during that early period of the inception of KGS before he moved on. The other KGS black belts either retired, passed on before their time or went on to found their own systems. Mr. Pesare kept the rudiments of Mr. Gascon and his school's teachings on the west coast as the basis of what he brought to New England. Of course he continued his studies under various instructors adding, deleting, refining and evolving his perspective of what he was originally taught making quite a name for himself here on the east coast w/ his stable of PKA World Champion kickboxers and top tournament competitors. The 'Pesare' name became legendary here in New England.

Some today credit the Shaolin Kempo forms, namely what is used in the kata series as having been created by Shaolin monks in China when in reality it was Sonny Gascon and his early staff and later George Pesare who created the forms. Mr. Pesare created #5, yes, #5...#6 and #7. You will also most definitely see a relationship with Parker's Kenpo as stated in a previous post and KGS along with other Hawaiian-derived kenpo/kempo systems because in my opinion, they are all branches of the same tree if they go back to Mitose/Chow. Don't forget Parker and Gascon trained with each other and were close friends. Parker had Gascon as a guest instructor at his school and Gascon was a guest referree at Parker's legendary Long Beach Internationals. Cerio trained with Parker back in the mid to late 60's, he took Fred Villari and Prof. Larry Garron with him. Both Cerio and Garron had verfied this although it has been said Parker denied ever meeting Villari. The core or the rudiments of the the mother art remains pretty much intact. Their major differences is where the emphasis lies. Some are more into Jiu Jitsu, some Kung Fu, some Karate and some an eclectic blending of all three with some other additions including the 'American way' of doing things. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras

[fistlaw720]

Once again well said Professor! Is there an online link to the Panther and Swift Tigers comparison? Circle of the Panther is in the Master's Text and looks like a pretty sweet form as a whole.

[Matt]

Once again well said Professor! Is there an online link to the Panther and Swift Tigers comparison? Circle of the Panther is in the Master's Text and looks like a pretty sweet form as a whole.

The breakdown occurs in this thread (http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php?topic=1299.0), and special thanks to KGS BBS for following up on my initial hunch.

Matt

[marlon]

I had asked this question another way before so let me rephrase it: How would you recommend that someone teach in order to produce quality black belts the way N.Cerio and G.Pesare and others were reputed to produce?

Respectfull,
Marlon

[fistlaw720]

The breakdown occurs in this thread (http://www.kajukenbocafe.com/smf/index.php?topic=1299.0), and special thanks to KGS BBS for following up on my initial hunch.

Matt

Thanks once again sir...:asian:

[GPKKI #37]

I had asked this question another way before so let me rephrase it: How would you recommend that someone teach in order to produce quality black belts the way N.Cerio and G.Pesare and others were reputed to produce?

Respectfull,
Marlon

Marlon:

Are you asking "What is the best order to teach your curriculum to create quality black belts"? If so, what does that matter? George Pesare teaches a very complex combination at the "no belt" level in order to earn white belt (2 months or so). He always has, even with Nick Cerio (saw it on reel to reel dated 1962). I do think that the curriculum is important, but more so, isn't it more important that your student has the ability to use your technique effectively at the most granular level? I think that's a better guage of a good martial artist, not just someone who can 'parrot' back a system, but can truly understand and implement it's application.

my 2 cents, which still can't buy you a cup of coffee.

Marc

[Matt]

I had asked this question another way before so let me rephrase it: How would you recommend that someone teach in order to produce quality black belts the way N.Cerio and G.Pesare and others were reputed to produce?

Respectfull,
Marlon


Marlon-
The question you are asking(at least the way you are phrasing it now), in my opinion, actually has very little to do with this thread.

Content vs. Pedagogy.

You've answered your own question. It's not 'what should I teach', but rather 'how should I teach.' The true secret (listen up everybody - this will make you amazingly powerful)to the success of William Chow, Adriano Emperado and George Pesare was: intensity. They pushed harder and worked harder than pretty much anyone else. It's (to a large degree) not what you do, it's how you do it. Yes, there were differences, but if you could somehow put the curricula of those three men in a box, and had them draw material out of a hat so that they ended up with each others' techniques, they would still have put out legendary black belts. If I had to imagine one advantage they all shared over the current crop of kempo, it is that they had less. They weren't worried about remembering their 108th technique. They were finding the energy to do their basic technique a 108th time that class. Ironically, many of the more respected black belts of Fred Villari are from the early days, like 1973-75. Guess what they had for a curriculum - 1-30 combinations, and forms that topped out at Honsuki. Less.

[John Bishop]

Marlon-
The question you are asking(at least the way you are phrasing it now), in my opinion, actually has very little to do with this thread.

Content vs. Pedagogy.

You've answered your own question. It's not 'what should I teach', but rather 'how should I teach.' The true secret (listen up everybody - this will make you amazingly powerful)to the success of William Chow, Adriano Emperado and George Pesare was: intensity. They pushed harder and worked harder than pretty much anyone else. It's (to a large degree) not what you do, it's how you do it. Yes, there were differences, but if you could somehow put the curricula of those three men in a box, and had them draw material out of a hat so that they ended up with each others' techniques, they would still have put out legendary black belts. If I had to imagine one advantage they all shared over the current crop of kempo, it is that they had less. They weren't worried about remembering their 108th technique.

Sijo Emperado shouldn't be lumped in with these other kenpo/kempo masters. His whole reason for getting together with the other four founders of Kajukenbo was to have more, not stay with the status quo of less is better. They created this whole thing everyone is now calling mixed martial arts.
If your running chain schools or video programs where someone can earn a black belt in 12-18 months, then 30 combinations is probably a good number.
But if your black belts are training 5-6 years for their student black, then 105 combinations is not a large amount of material.
Sijo Emperado never settled for less. He always looked for the right tool for the right job. His Original Method of Kajukenbo has 105 defensive combinations divided into punch, grab, knife, club, and multiple attacker defenses. It also has 14 katas.
And then there's 3 more branches of the Original Method.

[marlon]

Perhaps you are correct Matt, however, what is the purpose of finding the original content, if not to understand how to become better and how to produce better students?


Marlon-
The question you are asking(at least the way you are phrasing it now), in my opinion, actually has very little to do with this thread.

Content vs. Pedagogy.

You've answered your own question. It's not 'what should I teach', but rather 'how should I teach.' The true secret (listen up everybody - this will make you amazingly powerful)to the success of William Chow, Adriano Emperado and George Pesare was: intensity. They pushed harder and worked harder than pretty much anyone else. It's (to a large degree) not what you do, it's how you do it. Yes, there were differences, but if you could somehow put the curricula of those three men in a box, and had them draw material out of a hat so that they ended up with each others' techniques, they would still have put out legendary black belts.

Intensity is a great answer Matt. Do you look for students with intensity or who want that, or have you found a way to consistently motivate your students to a high level of intensity?


If I had to imagine one advantage they all shared over the current crop of kempo, it is that they had less. They weren't worried about remembering their 108th technique. They were finding the energy to do their basic technique a 108th time that class. Ironically, many of the more respected black belts of Fred Villari are from the early days, like 1973-75. Guess what they had for a curriculum - 1-30 combinations, and forms that topped out at Honsuki. Less.

Perhaps the more techniques helps to motivate students to higher intensity levels and is not merely a marketing ploy. I agree with Master Bishop's post that a curricullum for black belt involving at least 5-6 years of work and training, with many yechniques and forms shold not inhibit intensity, but rather versatility and broader understanding so as to help them make the material work for them in ways that were not presented in class or a seminar or a book.
And lastly my question had to do with the curricullum, despite my feeling that it was training that mattered more than style /curricullum...perhaps i wam mistaken. It is not semantics to my understanding at this stage, rather seeking the training that is truth in terms of product...i.e . an effective martial artist...by corollory an effective teacher.

Respectfully,
Marlon

[Danjo]

In terms of how many techniques there are Prof. Chow apparently had a HUGE amount of them. According to his students, he never taught the same thing twice. I don't know if that simply meant that he had a never ending supply of learned techniques, or that he made them up s he went, or that he saw something he liked and brought that in to his curriculum (if one can even call what he did a curriculum). In other words, I don't think that the "Less is More" idea applied to Prof. Chow either. It sounds more like a recent construct to pare something down to a size that can be taught quickly.

[RevIV]

Sijo Emperado shouldn't be lumped in with these other kenpo/kempo masters. His whole reason for getting together with the other four founders of Kajukenbo was to have more, not stay with the status quo of less is better. They created this whole thing everyone is now calling mixed martial arts.
If your running chain schools or video programs where someone can earn a black belt in 12-18 months, then 30 combinations is probably a good number.
But if your black belts are training 5-6 years for their student black, then 105 combinations is not a large amount of material.
Sijo Emperado never settled for less. He always looked for the right tool for the right job. His Original Method of Kajukenbo has 105 defensive combinations divided into punch, grab, knife, club, and multiple attacker defenses. It also has 14 katas.
And then there's 3 more branches of the Original Method.


Master Bishop;
I here what you are saying in this but I don't see a problem with "lumping" Sijo Emperado into this group, Matt is not lessening his reputation by putting him with these great Masters. He did incorporate more but Matt was just giving an example. Matt was refering to the combinations- Not the full curriculum.. Those 30 combinations did not include the 30 punch techniques, animal tech., club, knife, gun, and ground techniques. 105 techniques i think is a small amount compared to some of the kenpo schools out there and a huge amount compared to others. Now i do not know which is better of worse i do not have enough time in to know any better. But i do know that of the combinations i have i can use them left, right, for grabs and in a numerous amount of other variations for the scenario. As for the MMA thing, to my recollection, GM Pesare's 1st black belt GM Carpenter was in the first ever sanctioned full contact anything goes MMA fight- where his opponent did not survive. If all he had was 21 combinations (I dont know) I think that was enough. I know GM Carpenter and he is a dangerous person and i dont care if he only learned 1 technique i bet he can take us out 10 different ways with that one.
Mastering 1 kata is better than knowing 20.
In Peace
Jesse

[John Bishop]

Master Bishop;
I here what you are saying in this but I don't see a problem with "lumping" Sijo Emperado into this group, Matt is not lessening his reputation by putting him with these great Masters. He did incorporate more but Matt was just giving an example. Matt was refering to the combinations- Not the full curriculum.. Those 30 combinations did not include the 30 punch techniques, animal tech., club, knife, gun, and ground techniques. 105 techniques i think is a small amount compared to some of the kenpo schools out there and a huge amount compared to others. Now i do not know which is better of worse i do not have enough time in to know any better. But i do know that of the combinations i have i can use them left, right, for grabs and in a numerous amount of other variations for the scenario. As for the MMA thing, to my recollection, GM Pesare's 1st black belt GM Carpenter was in the first ever sanctioned full contact anything goes MMA fight- where his opponent did not survive. If all he had was 21 combinations (I dont know) I think that was enough. I know GM Carpenter and he is a dangerous person and i dont care if he only learned 1 technique i bet he can take us out 10 different ways with that one.
Mastering 1 kata is better than knowing 20.
In Peace
Jesse

Thanks for the sign of respect, but please don't refer to me as master. I know some people here insist on signing off with a master, shihan, or professor title attached to their name, but my signature says John, and that is good enough for anyone who is gracious enough to converse with me here.
Matt and myself have had many email conversations over the last couple of years, and although we don't agree on everything, we seem to share a mutual respect. And I'm sure he can speak for himself either here or in private communication with me. In this particular instance, I did and still do disagree with parts of his statement.
As to your example, I fail to understand what "the first sanctioned full contact anything goes MMA fight" has to do with the founding of the first MMA in America. People like Prof. Chow and Prof. Emperado did their fighting for real on the street without any sanctions, 20+ years before the contest your referring to.
And no one who knows anything about the history of mainland karate would ever say that Roger Carpenter was anything but a outstanding martial artist. But I'm sure it wasn't his intention to kill another human being in a sporting contest to prove his skill level. Unfortunetely those tragedies happen. People get killed in boxing rings, kickboxing rings, and even high school football games. If I thought that killing someone in a sporting contest was the true measure of a systems effectiveness, then I could also point out that Kajukenbo purple belt Victor Raposa retired from full contact karate after killing a man in the ring. Or I could say that western boxing was the best fighting system because Max Baer killed a man in a boxing match.

[RevIV]

Thanks for the sign of respect, but please don't refer to me as master. I know some people here insist on signing off with a master, shihan, or professor title attached to their name, but my signature says John, and that is good enough for anyone who is gracious enough to converse with me here.
Matt and myself have had many email conversations over the last couple of years, and although we don't agree on everything, we seem to share a mutual respect. And I'm sure he can speak for himself either here or in private communication with me. In this particular instance, I did and still do disagree with parts of his statement.
As to your example, I fail to understand what "the first sanctioned full contact anything goes MMA fight" has to do with the founding of the first MMA in America. People like Prof. Chow and Prof. Emperado did their fighting for real on the street without any sanctions, 20+ years before the contest your referring.
And no one who knows anything about the history of mainland karate would ever say that Roger Carpenter was anything but a outstanding martial artist. But I'm sure it wasn't his intention to kill another human being in a sporting contest to prove his skill level. Unfortunetely those tragedies happen. People get killed in boxing rings, kickboxing rings, and even high school football games. If I thought that killing someone in a sporting contest was the true measure of a systems effectiveness, then I could also point out that Kajukenbo purple belt Victor Raposa retired from full contact karate after killing a man in the ring. Or I could say that western boxing was the best fighting system because Max Baer killed a man in a boxing match.

John,

Thank you for the reply, Matt is a good friend of mine and was at my wedding a few weeks back, I wasnt really trying to defend him, he can do it much better than i can. Respect goes to where its earned, I wrote Master for you beause i have seen it on others but never when you write so i will stay with just john, I have seen your humbleness on other forums, the one i like the most is about doing a seminar just for the chance to go fishing and hunting.. I believe that was you.. I did not harp on the kill.. said it once and i know that was not the intention of the fight and it does not prove anything you just seemed offended that Sijo was placed with these other Masters and I just didnt get it. PRof. Chow throughout the decades refined, restructured and added pieces of other arts to his own.. I think he referred to his system with 4 different names each one the next generation of the other. GM Pesare took what he had learned from GGM Gascon and then incorporated his own things also. We both know that All three of these men I just mentioned would, could, and did bring it to the streets when needed (and not needed). I brought up the sanctioned fight because you brought up the MMA, and now i realize that you were refering to MMA in a defferent manner. When i here MMA now a days I just think of UFC, or any of the caged fights. The way you speak of MMA is the way i think of Kempo in the first place. To continue the diversity of GM Pesare- he holds a tournament once a year - 9 events - Boxing, Kicking, Grappling, Blade v. Blade, Stick v. Stick, Sword v. Sword, knife throwing, archery, pistol. you must compete in all events and the overall highest point score wins. This brings in a lot of different styles and shows the diversity here.
In Peace
Jesse

[Matt]

Sijo Emperado shouldn't be lumped in with these other kenpo/kempo masters. His whole reason for getting together with the other four founders of Kajukenbo was to have more, not stay with the status quo of less is better. They created this whole thing everyone is now calling mixed martial arts.
If your running chain schools or video programs where someone can earn a black belt in 12-18 months, then 30 combinations is probably a good number.
But if your black belts are training 5-6 years for their student black, then 105 combinations is not a large amount of material.
Sijo Emperado never settled for less. He always looked for the right tool for the right job. His Original Method of Kajukenbo has 105 defensive combinations divided into punch, grab, knife, club, and multiple attacker defenses. It also has 14 katas.
And then there's 3 more branches of the Original Method.

John -
First, sorry to be so slow to get back to this - summer school is keeping me busy. I think I may not have articulated my point as well as I could have. There's a continuum that I see in the martial arts, as far as curriculum goes, and it reminds me of a description my earth science teacher gave me of how long an essay should be. In his words, it should be like a mini-skirt: Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to be interesting. In the case of martial arts, any given curriculum should have enough material to cover the predicted adverisites, but not be littered with redundancy. In the field of motor learning, there is a provable, repeatable effect that as the number of response choices available increases, so does response time. Additionally, if you have a finite number of practice hours, as the 'required' items increase in number, the number of hours per technique of practice goes down. If the amount of practice time falls lower than the threshold where 'automatic response' comes into play, the chance of applying them real time becomes somewhere around diddley.

Now, as far as 'lumping' Sijo Emperado in with the Kempo folks, I did as far as intensity goes. But, as you said, Sijo got together to get 'more'. He didn't necessarily get more 'stuff', but mainly more 'ideas'. If you go to an original method school, you don't learn Tang Soo Do, Chinese Boxing, American Boxing, Kenpo, Judo and Jujutsu; you learn Kajukenbo. He (and they) took what they had and created a new cohesive whole out of it. If they simply glued the five arts together, it would have been an an abomination and unwieldy. They took what they had, sifted, pared and created, less as it would have taken five lifetimes to study those arts. It does touch back on your mention of 'right tool for the job'. How many half inch box wrenches do you need? One for each hand perhaps? After that it seems to be redundant to carry more.

Finally, as far as the 'numbers' game breaks down, I think part of the problem with my answer is in terminology. Combinations are 'defenses against a right step through punch' in Shaolin Kempo and some karazenpo groups. Some vary the attacks, use hooks, crosses when appropriate. I didn't mention:
Grab Techniques.
Kempo Punch techniques.(more step through front punches)
'Animal' techniques. (even more step through front punches)
Knife defenses.
Club defenses.
5 Pinans (forms)
6 Katas. (other series of forms)
and more...

For my shodan test, it worked out to about 90 or so techniques. What I'm saying about Shaolin Kempo, is that nobody needs more than 108 answers just for a right hand step through punch.

Okay, maybe that wasn't finally, since I'm writing 'one more thing.' As far as the original method having 105 techniques - is that for black belt or is that 'total'? It seems reasonable. And, as far as I know, most folks study one branch of Kajukenbo at a time. Is there any one person that has studied the full curriculum of all of the branches and can bring any given technique out from memory?


Matt

[Matt]

Perhaps you are correct Matt, however, what is the purpose of finding the original content, if not to understand how to become better and how to produce better students?


I'm certainly not discouraging that aspect - as I'm sure you know how much digging in that direction that I've done over the years. However, I just want to point out that the techniques aren't going to be what does it. You are. You will be the difference in your students. Every technique you teach can be had elsewhere. However, you are the one who will make it useful by teaching how, when and why to use it.



Perhaps the more techniques helps to motivate students to higher intensity levels and is not merely a marketing ploy. I agree with Master Bishop's post that a curricullum for black belt involving at least 5-6 years of work and training, with many yechniques and forms shold not inhibit intensity, but rather versatility and broader understanding so as to help them make the material work for them in ways that were not presented in class or a seminar or a book.
And lastly my question had to do with the curricullum, despite my feeling that it was training that mattered more than style /curricullum...perhaps i wam mistaken. It is not semantics to my understanding at this stage, rather seeking the training that is truth in terms of product...i.e . an effective martial artist...by corollory an effective teacher.

Respectfully,
Marlon


It was a semantics thing, but there is an upper limit. I just thought you had inadvertently hit the nail on the head. More is not always better, and sometimes it is worse. The versatility is encouraged by limits in quantity and exploring using the principles of the technique in depth and generality.
Matt

[Matt]

In terms of how many techniques there are Prof. Chow apparently had a HUGE amount of them. According to his students, he never taught the same thing twice. I don't know if that simply meant that he had a never ending supply of learned techniques, or that he made them up s he went, or that he saw something he liked and brought that in to his curriculum (if one can even call what he did a curriculum). In other words, I don't think that the "Less is More" idea applied to Prof. Chow either. It sounds more like a recent construct to pare something down to a size that can be taught quickly.

You are correct in stating that he had a huge number of techniques, and I've heard the same thing about never teaching the same thing twice. That's exactly what I'm trying to get at. He didn't have a giant list of technique a1 through a1300. He had a core of principles, and could apply them on the fly. What people saw was the example of the principle, but the lesson was the idea. That's why it didn't reappear in verbatim, it was just 'an example'. They then worked the idea to death, forwards, backwards, inside out, and then hopefully absorbed it. It's not a 'teach quickly' sort of thing.
Caution - Matt's ego example coming up
I had a private student who moved away. He was a brown belt, and a pretty good one. He came to me with a pile of material, combos, kempos, forms, etc. We spent the next year and some ripping apart 1-5 kata from the ground up. We added almost nothing as far as new techniques go. When he arrived at his new school, the folks there were blown away. Why? His depth of understanding. We threw away many things, but as far as how to move, he improved substantially. He has actually left that school, as they seemed more interested in 'collecting techniques' and kept having him teach class to explain the bunkai of their forms (even though he hadn't learned them yet). The new school he is at seems to fit him better, but then again, they are more impressed with his quality of movement than whether or not he has combinations 28, 29 or 30.

[marlon]

based on the information provided by John Bishop, i think i will now refer to shaolin kempo as a Mitose-Chow related art, as are AK, Kajukenbo, JKara-ho, Shaolin kenpo, and the goshin jutsu of Bill Chun and Hawaiian kempo. The things i see related in these arts are teaching defenses outside of forms/kata, multiple strikes off of a mobile base, built around the idea of a multiple attacker situation, elements of striking-grappling-aiki jitsu, street orientated, and low kicks (the exception being Kara Ho). Just my thoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon

[Danjo]

based on the information provided by John Bishop, i think i will now refer to shaolin kempo as a Mitose-Chow related art, as are AK, Kajukenbo, JKara-ho, Shaolin kenpo, and the goshin jutsu of Bill Chun and Hawaiian kempo. The things i see related in these arts are teaching defenses outside of forms/kata, multiple strikes off of a mobile base, built around the idea of a multiple attacker situation, elements of striking-grappling-aiki jitsu, street orientated, and low kicks (the exception being Kara Ho). Just my thoughts

Respectfully,
Marlon

Well, the issue with this has been dealt with at length before, but when you talk about AK, Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo, you're talking about mixed martial arts in the sense that they had multiple influences from their founders. In other words, it's reductive to say they are "Mitose-Chow" related arts. AK had a great deal of kung fu and other inovations put into it by Mr. Parker and his end product looked almost nothing like his teacher Prof. Chow's.

Kajukenbo, by its very name, tells you that it is comprised of over five different martial arts, Karate, Judo/Jujutsu, Kenpo, and Chinese Boxing (also Escrima and American Boxing), and while Prof. Chow was always impressed with Kajukenbo and Sijo Emperado, it was not what he taught himself.

Shaolin Kempo Karate, has several different influences also. Pesare had a purple belt in Karazenpo, then he got black belts in Aikido, Judo, Taekwondo and escrima. Most of which went in to his system. Then, his student Nick Cerio put in a great deal of Shotokan kata and technique. Cerio's student Villari put in a good many more changes from his various influences with an end product that is unique and doesn't resemble the previously mentioned arts.

Though I've only seen a small bit of Chun's Kempo, I understand that it is pretty close to what he learned from Prof. Chow back in the early days. Though I believe that he also had TKD expertise that he may have brought into it.

[Joe Shuras]

Here's a little updated information I posted on Martial Arts Planet a little while ago, hopefully it will answer some questions.

Here's what I know. Again, due to history being history, especially verbal history, sometimes I may end up with several accounts of the same event or as Bruce Corrigan pointed out, sometimes I could be given inaccurate information but in good faith, so I'll report what I've been told and everyone can take it for what it's worth.

I do wish to remind you that all martial arts, and in all due respect and I mean that, Kajukenbo is no exception but neither is any other art, they all have confusing dates, events, inaccuracies, who trained in what and under who, blah, blah, blah. I was just looking at Tang Soo Do lately, wow, what confusion there. One of my 4th dans is also a 2nd dan in Hapkido. He told me there are two senior grandmaster founders, both laying claim to the system with different histories. Confusion in EPAK and Chow and promotions and the Jimmy Woo controversy. Chow himself, no one really knows where his Kung Fu came from and if he really had a 5th dan in judo and exactly what his father knew or didn't know. This should not, however, reflect negatively on any of our arts. Having said that, let's get to some good discussion.

The Godin mystery. Okay, I liked Walter Godin also the week I met him in Virginia. We had a blast out there, both in training but socially too! This is what I know. It has been posted on other forums, maybe even this one too, about Godin's problems with the law and his incarcerations involving narcotics so I'm not letting the cat out of the bag. Last I knew, his daughter was supposed to be writing a book on his life but I haven't heard anything for several years now. Sonny Gas had sent for Walter Godin to train with him and to assist in KGS in an attempt to keep him away from certain elements and out of trouble. Sonny Gas is very anti drugs. Unfortunately, this didn't work out and Godin left after that short period of time, I think around 6 weeks as Mike Rash reported. I'm not sure exactly how long after but this eventually led to his first incarceration. Later, ammends were made and Sonny Gascon took him back in and both seemed to get along quite well when I was in their company in 1994. Now, again, I'm not sure of the dates because I don't have them but Godin did another stint (I was told he did two stints in prison), I don't know if it was this time or that he just got in some kind of trouble that Sonny found out about but that's when Sonny Gas wrote him off for the final time. That's why the patch change and so forth. Sonny Gas brought him in, in good faith with good intentions but it didn't work out. So, that's the story on that. I didn't want to say too much before but when I recently did a search I found a thread where this was discussed (incarcerations) so I'm not giving away anything here. It's unfortunate but Professor Godin made some mistakes and misjudgements in his life. He's certainly not alone.

Okay, you mentioned George Pesare. When Bruce Corrigan first contacted Sonny Gas the name (Pesare) did not immediately ring a bell, this was back just before the private gathering we had in 1994 but when Bruce discussed it further, Sonny Gascon did indeed remember George Pesare. Remember, at this time it was like 35 years ago. I spoke to Sonny Gas myself, personally, and he told me George was a good fighter and he emphasized that, and although the smallest of his students, he held his own against anyone he threw at him. He also stated no matter how much of a beating he took in training, George Pesare would always show up bright and early the next morning ready to train again. He also stated he didn't know exactly how long Pesare trained under him but it may have been 4 or 5 months or so. Now, I know, we've all heard the 2 1/2 months and the purple belt thing. Mr. Pesare stated to me and Kathy once, after we saw and was totally impressed by his DVD of his 60's training, "2 1/2 months of training, huh?" and he laughed. He even sent a recent e-mail joking about it ( the 2 1/2 months) to his mailing list. I say to anyone, please send for the DVD and you will see why.

Now, I remember Bruce telling me not too long ago, from what he recalls, George Pesare trained in the Karazenpo on the west coast around a year and two or three months, so we got 14-15 months not 2 1/2 months or 4 or 5. Please also bear in mind, however long it was, this wasn't two or three 60 or 90 minute classes a week but it was from dawn 'till dusk and sometimes into the night. I believe on Saturday's, however, was party time, and they would have a lua. George lived with the Hawiians during this time. If you look back at this period, you will see guys like James Ibrao who made black under Ed Parker in 9 months, Joe Lewis in 7 months, Mike Stone in 6 months. There is an article I still have from a History of Kenpo (New England), from what I recall it was at least two volumes long in Nick Cerio's International Martial Arts Association Newsletter (NCIMAA). In it there is a story of Mr. Pesare training in California and during testing, he threw a jump spinning back kick (later to become one if his signature techniques) right into the rib cage of a large Hawaiian guest instructor who came to assist in the test. It was stated from the look on his face, Pesare passed the test. Later, of course, he came back to Rhode Island and resumed his training in Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Judo, Eskrima, Aikido, Boxing, Shotokan, Tai Chi amongst other arts and weaponery. Dan, you and I have also spoke about Nick Cerio stating Mr. Pesare did indeed have a black belt certificate in KGS from the west coast because he saw it when it arrived, implying the paperwork came a little later from the time he initially brought the art to New England which is perfectly acceptable during that era.

There is no question in anyone's mind, at least I hope there isn't, that these men are indeed, the real deals. They are most certainly accepted by their peers and seniors as such and all have publically and formerly acknowleged them as such. Why the discrepencies? Who knows..... Why did William Chow say Ed Parker was a purple belt in "The Lost Interview"? Why the twists and turns in the history and lineages of all the arts? I guess we can just go back to Bruce Corrigan's post, I think he said it best.

Dan, I have answered your post as honestly as I can, that's all I can do. Take care & be safe, Joe

Note of edit: Dan, to explain this a little further - Okay, you mentioned George Pesare. When Bruce Corrigan first contacted Sonny Gas the name (Pesare) did not immediately ring a bell, this was back just before the private gathering we had in 1994 but when Bruce discussed it further, Sonny Gascon did indeed remember George Pesare. Remember, at this time it was like 35 years ago.

Dan, from what I gathered Sonny didn't connect the name with the face right away but once Bruce continued his description of SGM. Pesare, he immediately remembered. - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Here's a little more that may help sort out a few things erroneously reported on the 'net'.

if I recall on a previous post I did say that Sonny Gas did not recollect a David Kamalani. This I didn't ask of Sonny, Mike Rash did and told me. I believe, again, according to what has been written, that Kamalani died in a car accident something like a year after he opened a school. Now, Kamalani contributing #3 kata came from Bill Mailman's website. I did get that info. as I had previously stated through Peter Teymourez but remember, Peter, who is, undisputedly, an honest man, was a student of Mailman's so that's obviously where he received it. Although Mailman was originally from the Boston area, I never met him nor heard of him until Peter.

Now these so called 'facts' on the J. Madriga (Mailman) site have been answered by Sonny Gascon, I think pretty thoroughly. Yes, there is some faded memory and he admits it but hell, we're talking events that took place in the 50's and very early 60's, I think we should cut him some slack. I'd be willing to bet this would apply to anyone whom we would interview and ask questions regarding people and events that transpired so long ago. Like Bruce Corrigan said, people have trouble remembering accurately what transpired 20 years ago, never mind nearly 50 years! I did not really want to get into the the Godin questions you asked me earlier, out of respect to his memory, family and lineage, I was not being evasive in any way. Yes, regretably, he made mistakes. I pulled up a thread on M/T where John was discussing his incarceration in a post and came to realize it's a well known fact in the Kempo world so I answered your questions.

This is now my opinion, I'm going to guess at this one but I'd bet I'm on the money. The history page on the Mailman website, J. Madriga. Mike Rash, another instructor and Bill Mailman had a falling out years ago. It sprang up again when Chris Geary posted an e-mail on his Guestbook from Mailman. Mailman had no idea Geary was going to post his private e-mail. (it has since been deleted). Mike Rash confronted Mailman about it and Cc'd me all the e-mails. He took issue with what was said and several others who were around then also reponded in support of Mike and what really transpired. It doesn't matter the details because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The only reason I mention it, is that it shows a motive of why on Mailman's website the history is totally slanted against Sonny Gascon with an emphasis on Walter Godin as the founder. Know what I mean? I believe it was his way of tucking it to Mike. Well, Mailman sent Mike a very humble e-mail over the whole thing which I thought was class. These things happen in life.

Anyway, this is the b.s. that goes on in everyone's house, not just Karazenpo's. Dan, you had used the term 'Official History". It is my belief that because something is the 'Official History' it does not mean it is the exact history. I think a better term for it is "Accepted History". All these arts, all of them, have a history that through the years became 'accepted' and your current art is no different, no zing here what-so-ever, we're all in the same boat, all of us and I say, big deal, who cares.....I tried very hard to have a nice factual history of the art but it is impossible. I totally agree with Bruce Corrigan. Who the hell cares? We all have a great martial art to practice for a lifetime, both you and me, that was built on the blood, sweat and tears of those who came before us. Our arts have been around for 50 to 60 years and are still going strong. That's all that matters. Our arts will continue their successful propagation long after you and I have left this planet. Who could ask for anything more than that, that's better than history! Sincerely, Joe

[kenmpoka]

Here's a little more that may help sort out a few things erroneously reported on the 'net'.

if I recall on a previous post I did say that Sonny Gas did not recollect a David Kamalani. This I didn't ask of Sonny, Mike Rash did and told me. I believe, again, according to what has been written, that Kamalani died in a car accident something like a year after he opened a school. Now, Kamalani contributing #3 kata came from Bill Mailman's website. I did get that info. as I had previously stated through Peter Teymourez but remember, Peter, who is, undisputedly, an honest man, was a student of Mailman's so that's obviously where he received it. Although Mailman was originally from the Boston area, I never met him nor heard of him until Peter.

Now these so called 'facts' on the J. Madriga (Mailman) site have been answered by Sonny Gascon, I think pretty thoroughly. Yes, there is some faded memory and he admits it but hell, we're talking events that took place in the 50's and very early 60's, I think we should cut him some slack. I'd be willing to bet this would apply to anyone whom we would interview and ask questions regarding people and events that transpired so long ago. Like Bruce Corrigan said, people have trouble remembering accurately what transpired 20 years ago, never mind nearly 50 years! I did not really want to get into the the Godin questions you asked me earlier, out of respect to his memory, family and lineage, I was not being evasive in any way. Yes, regretably, he made mistakes. I pulled up a thread on M/T where John was discussing his incarceration in a post and came to realize it's a well known fact in the Kempo world so I answered your questions.

This is now my opinion, I'm going to guess at this one but I'd bet I'm on the money. The history page on the Mailman website, J. Madriga. Mike Rash, another instructor and Bill Mailman had a falling out years ago. It sprang up again when Chris Geary posted an e-mail on his Guestbook from Mailman. Mailman had no idea Geary was going to post his private e-mail. (it has since been deleted). Mike Rash confronted Mailman about it and Cc'd me all the e-mails. He took issue with what was said and several others who were around then also reponded in support of Mike and what really transpired. It doesn't matter the details because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. The only reason I mention it, is that it shows a motive of why on Mailman's website the history is totally slanted against Sonny Gascon with an emphasis on Walter Godin as the founder. Know what I mean? I believe it was his way of tucking it to Mike. Well, Mailman sent Mike a very humble e-mail over the whole thing which I thought was class. These things happen in life.

Joe
Hey Joe,

Long time no hear, Just saw your post and wanted to clear up one thing.

The SKK's history was sent to me by Mr. Corrigan. I was then under the impression that J. Madriga was a student of his. I in turn gave the information to Mr. Mailman. If the history seems to be leaning more towards GM Godin, it is not Mr. Mailman's fault nor mine. Again, if I remember correctly, Mr. Corrigan and Mr. Gascon were in good terms back then. So why wasn't the information corrected? Please refer me to any recent discussion or corrections from GM. Gascon. At the time it was the most comprehensive research that existed on Shaolin Kempo Karate, and in my opinion still is.

The rest of the stuff that you wrote I have no idea about. Love to get updated. Please give a call when you get a chance.

Stay safe,

[Danjo]

Hey Joe,

Long time no hear, Just saw your post and wanted to clear up one thing.

The SKK's history was sent to me by Mr. Corrigan. I was then under the impression that J. Madriga was a student of his. I in turn gave the information to Mr. Mailman. If the history seems to be leaning more towards GM Godin, it is not Mr. Mailman's fault nor mine. Again, if I remember correctly, Mr. Corrigan and Mr. Gascon were in good terms back then. So why wasn't the information corrected? Please refer me to any recent discussion or corrections from GM. Gascon. At the time it was the most comprehensive research that existed on Shaolin Kempo Karate, and in my opinion still is.

The rest of the stuff that you wrote I have no idea about. Love to get updated. Please give a call when you get a chance.

Stay safe,

I'm sure that after Walter Godin died a lot was "updated".

[kenmpoka]

I'm sure that after Walter Godin died a lot was "updated".
I know, this happens all the time......

[John Bishop]

I know, this happens all the time......

Yes, there is a move by some to minimize the role that Prof. Godin played in Karazenpo.

[Joe Shuras]

Yes, there is a move by some to minimize the role that Prof. Godin played in Karazenpo.

In all due respect, John, if you have any evidence of such a move please report it here and I will personally check it out.....again. I, for one, as I reported above, liked Walter Godin and would not at all want to see him unjustly 'minimized' in the KGS history, however, I did what you do when you have a question involving Kajukenbo, you go to the source, Adriano Emperado. So, I went directly to the source, Sonny Gascon, and so did Mike Rash, and that's what he told us. I have read several posts of yours over the years where you mention Walter Godin's stints in prison and Mr. Gascon's account seems reasonable to me. This could have all been cleared up along with any other other questions if you only had met with him last fall when he was on the west coast. So, if that is who you are referring to in this move against Prof. Godin's role in KGS, fine, I will forward this to Sonny Gascon. - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Hey Joe,

Long time no hear, Just saw your post and wanted to clear up one thing.

The SKK's history was sent to me by Mr. Corrigan. I was then under the impression that J. Madriga was a student of his. I in turn gave the information to Mr. Mailman. If the history seems to be leaning more towards GM Godin, it is not Mr. Mailman's fault nor mine. Again, if I remember correctly, Mr. Corrigan and Mr. Gascon were in good terms back then. So why wasn't the information corrected? Please refer me to any recent discussion or corrections from GM. Gascon. At the time it was the most comprehensive research that existed on Shaolin Kempo Karate, and in my opinion still is.

The rest of the stuff that you wrote I have no idea about. Love to get updated. Please give a call when you get a chance.

Stay safe,

Hi Peter, great to here from you. Some of the information I wrote about came directly from Sonny Gascon. I spoke to him directly about certain events and Mike Rash spoke to him about other things I reported here. The rest of the information came from Bruce Corrigan to me directly. We spoke at length recently over the phone.

Peter, I do remember that your information came from Bruce Corrigan but I didn't know the #3 kata created by David Kamalani also came from Bruce. I have Bruce's history here also and I didn't see any mention of this nor did he mention it in my recent phone conversation but then again, I didn't ask him. So, when I was asked in a post as to my source of the Kamalani situation (someone thought I must have got it from J. Madriga) I stated I had received it from you long before I ever read the J. Madriga history. I remember you telling me you were a student of Bill Mailman's as I believed he was your source. So, my question is, who is this J. Madriga?... if it is not a pen name for Mr. Mailman.... If you don't know, I'll call Bruce and ask and then I'll call you and let you know what I found out. Take care & be safe, my brother - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

John -
First, sorry to be so slow to get back to this - summer school is keeping me busy. I think I may not have articulated my point as well as I could have. There's a continuum that I see in the martial arts, as far as curriculum goes, and it reminds me of a description my earth science teacher gave me of how long an essay should be. In his words, it should be like a mini-skirt: Long enough to cover the subject, but short enough to be interesting. In the case of martial arts, any given curriculum should have enough material to cover the predicted adverisites, but not be littered with redundancy. In the field of motor learning, there is a provable, repeatable effect that as the number of response choices available increases, so does response time. Additionally, if you have a finite number of practice hours, as the 'required' items increase in number, the number of hours per technique of practice goes down. If the amount of practice time falls lower than the threshold where 'automatic response' comes into play, the chance of applying them real time becomes somewhere around diddley.

Now, as far as 'lumping' Sijo Emperado in with the Kempo folks, I did as far as intensity goes. But, as you said, Sijo got together to get 'more'. He didn't necessarily get more 'stuff', but mainly more 'ideas'. If you go to an original method school, you don't learn Tang Soo Do, Chinese Boxing, American Boxing, Kenpo, Judo and Jujutsu; you learn Kajukenbo. He (and they) took what they had and created a new cohesive whole out of it. If they simply glued the five arts together, it would have been an an abomination and unwieldy. They took what they had, sifted, pared and created, less as it would have taken five lifetimes to study those arts. It does touch back on your mention of 'right tool for the job'. How many half inch box wrenches do you need? One for each hand perhaps? After that it seems to be redundant to carry more.

Finally, as far as the 'numbers' game breaks down, I think part of the problem with my answer is in terminology. Combinations are 'defenses against a right step through punch' in Shaolin Kempo and some karazenpo groups. Some vary the attacks, use hooks, crosses when appropriate. I didn't mention:
Grab Techniques.
Kempo Punch techniques.(more step through front punches)
'Animal' techniques. (even more step through front punches)
Knife defenses.
Club defenses.
5 Pinans (forms)
6 Katas. (other series of forms)
and more...

For my shodan test, it worked out to about 90 or so techniques. What I'm saying about Shaolin Kempo, is that nobody needs more than 108 answers just for a right hand step through punch.

Okay, maybe that wasn't finally, since I'm writing 'one more thing.' As far as the original method having 105 techniques - is that for black belt or is that 'total'? It seems reasonable. And, as far as I know, most folks study one branch of Kajukenbo at a time. Is there any one person that has studied the full curriculum of all of the branches and can bring any given technique out from memory?


Matt

Hi Matt, don't worry about the "lumped together" comment but John does have a point because if George Pesare read this post he wouldn't want to be "lumped together" either for his own reasons...... I did, however, understand what you meant by it though and thought it was a good post - Joe

[John Bishop]

This could have all been cleared up along with any other other questions if you only had met with him last fall when he was on the west coast. So, if that is who you are referring to in this move against Prof. Godin's role in KGS, fine, I will forward this to Sonny Gascon. - Joe

First off don't assume to know who I'm referring to. Or even if it is just one person. If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them.

[Joe Shuras]

First off don't assume to know who I'm referring to. Or even if it is just one person. If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them.

First off Bud, don't tell me what to assume, or anything else for that matter, this isn't the "Third Reich". Secondly, since all this has been posted on Mike Rash's 'personal' KGS website and has been discussed on some forums, let's not play games. You know Sonny Gascon supplied the information to Mike to post, no assumption here, I know exactly who you mean and you're not fooling anyone else either. No, you don't need forums, or messengers to talk to them nor do you do it 'personally' either, as you claim, you just make your inuendos, 'assumptions' (that sounds familiar, lol) and cheap shots on the forums. Relax, John and give Sonny a call, he's waiting to hear from you... - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Yes, there is a move by some to minimize the role that Prof. Godin played in Karazenpo.


Concerning USSD and Villari's-Please Read
Moderator's Note:

I'm sure everyone is aware that we live in a very litigious world. To save anyone here, members and staff, from the threat of lawsuits I want to make the following suggestions.
1. Please keep comments to descriptions of your own personal experiences. If it was a good or bad experience, the reader will know. So avoid any attacks on the character of a instructor or organization. Your own experiences will tell the story.
2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.
3. Try and remember that even in a organization that appears all bad, there are probably some hard working, ethical people, who are doing their best to teach and support their students.

Thank You
__________________
John Bishop

[Danjo]

Concerning USSD and Villari's-Please Read
Moderator's Note:

I'm sure everyone is aware that we live in a very litigious world. To save anyone here, members and staff, from the threat of lawsuits I want to make the following suggestions.
1. Please keep comments to descriptions of your own personal experiences. If it was a good or bad experience, the reader will know. So avoid any attacks on the character of a instructor or organization. Your own experiences will tell the story.
2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.
3. Try and remember that even in a organization that appears all bad, there are probably some hard working, ethical people, who are doing their best to teach and support their students.

Thank You
__________________
John Bishop

What organization or person was referred to in John's post?

[Gufbal1982]

OMG...for once I'm even confused as to what's happening here. All I would like to say is a saying that everyone knows..."When you ASSUME things, you make an ass of U and Me." And also, Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's? Just being curious...

[Joe Shuras]

What organization or person was referred to in John's post?

2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.

That should about cover it, and Dan, seriously, let's not play like you don't know either, c'ome on now, we're all more intelligent than that, I would hope so anyway.

Besides, John also stated: "If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them."

Evidently, if John wishes to say something to me about this, I guess it will be between he and I since he states when he has a problem with someone, he will address it himself personally. So, I'm sure he doesn't want you involved in this. I always try, yes try, to be respectful when I post and I even try with John even though of our recent past history BUT he always seems to find a way and you have done this too, to throw a shot ro two. Not only me, but I noticed he does it to others.

There's an M/T thread, an old one with Kimo Ferriera (the subject), Matt and John. John had some things to say and Matt honestly thought, at that time anyway, that John meant no offense and was just watching out for him so that he gets all his facts straight BUT several others including myself had communicated via pm and knew at the time John was firing a missile or two in Matt's direction because he's Kimo's student. Not right, Matt's a good guy and a very serious martial artist.

Then I look at this thread, another one of Matt's posts and Jesse also posted in support of Matt, (I know Jesse also personally, great guy) and yet John fires a couple of salvos at them.....again, not right.

Another thread not too long ago John got down on a poster a bit (can't remember who it was but it was on M/T) because the guy mentioned that the Bo in Kajukenbo stood for Chinese Boxing alone. John comes back at him saying how this is more misinformation being passed on and given life, etc. (I'm paraphrasing but he used the term 'misinformation' and this was the gist of it), and that the bo stands for Chinese Boxing and Western Boxing.

Low and behold, it was obviously John's articles this guy read stating the bo was for Chinese boxing. John stated once that the magazines take creative liberty with his articles at times, well, may I refer you to a 1989 (November) thesis by John Evan Bishop, a requirement for his shodan from Joe Rosas that was mailed to me and the only bo mentioned in Kajukenbo by John in this thesis was Chinese BOxing. No editors or publishers tainted the well here. Yes, in articles when Choo is mentioned, his boxing is part of his bio or credentials, but it was not listed as being the "Bo" with Chinese boxing in Kajukenbo. I believe he owes that poster a clarification and an apology for he was just parroting what John used to write.

Hey, I didn't write the thesis, he did. I would like to see things put aside on these forums so we can have good discussions but everyone is going to have want to - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

OMG...for once I'm even confused as to what's happening here. All I would like to say is a saying that everyone knows..."When you ASSUME things, you make an A$$ of U and Me." And also, Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's? Just being curious...

First of all, no assumption on my part, you are assuming I assumed, an A$$ of U and Me." lol, or you believe John, fine, that's your opinion but there is a history here that you are probably unaware of, I understand that. This is what I meant by 'everyone', my mistake to include you when figuritively (sp.?) speaking when saying 'everyone' so I'll say 'most' here because many who posted on this thread were privy to similiar discussions on other forums such as MAP. I know exactly what John meant and so doesn't Mike Rash. Sorry for any misunderstanding. - Joe

"Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's?" Read it again, you must have missed my point. I was trying to show how John was not going by the exact rules that he has posted on other threads, to other people in this case, the USSD/Villari's, was the most recent I knew of. 2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc. Rather hyprocritical I thought. If he wishes to substantiate this, well, then give names and evidence of this movement, other than that, it is merely unsubstantiated rumor, wouldn't you agree? - Joe

[Gufbal1982]

First of all, no assumption on my part, you are assuming I assumed, an A$$ of U and Me." lol, or you believe John, fine, that's your opinion but there is a history here that you are probably unaware of, I understand that. This is what I meant by 'everyone', my mistake to include you when figuritively (sp.?) speaking when saying 'everyone' so I'll say 'most' here because many who posted on this thread were privy to similiar discussions on other forums such as MAP. I know exactly what John meant and so doesn't Mike Rash. Sorry for any misunderstanding. - Joe

"Mr. Shuras, why quote the sticky for USSD/Villari's?" Read it again, you must have missed my point. I was trying to show how John was not going by the exact rules that he has posted on other threads, ot other people in this case, the USSD/Villari's, was the most recent I knew of. 2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc. Rather hyprocritivcal I thought. If he wishes to substantiate this, well, then give names and evidence of this movement, other than that, it is merely unsubstantiated rumor, wouldn't you agree? - Joe

LOL. Ok...I see. I should learn to read posts all the way thru...

[bluemtn]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-tkdgirl
-MT Moderator-

[Gufbal1982]

Mr. Shuras...can I ask you what makes you an authority of Kajukenbo. I know Mr. Bishop teaches the art at a school, which I ironically used to teach SKK nearby. If you want, you can PM it to me. I'm just curious of what makes you an authority on it...

[Carol]

Professor Shuras has taught Kajukenbo for quite awhile at a school in Massachusetts and has been a very active and respected part of the New England martial arts community. Any further description is up to him. :)

[kenmpoka]

Hi Peter, great to here from you. Some of the information I wrote about came directly from Sonny Gascon. I spoke to him directly about certain events and Mike Rash spoke to him about other things I reported here. The rest of the information came from Bruce Corrigan to me directly. We spoke at length recently over the phone.

Peter, I do remember that your information came from Bruce Corrigan but I didn't know the #3 kata created by David Kamalani also came from Bruce. I have Bruce's history here also and I didn't see any mention of this nor did he mention it in my recent phone conversation but then again, I didn't ask him. So, when I was asked in a post as to my source of the Kamalani situation (someone thought I must have got it from J. Madriga) I stated I had received it from you long before I ever read the J. Madriga history. I remember you telling me you were a student of Bill Mailman's as I believed he was your source. So, my question is, who is this J. Madriga?... if it is not a pen name for Mr. Mailman.... If you don't know, I'll call Bruce and ask and then I'll call you and let you know what I found out. Take care & be safe, my brother - Joe
Hey Joe,

"J.Madriaga" is not Mr. Mailman. The info on Kata 3 is on the report by J.Madriaga. Who he is I do not know. I was under the impression that he was with Corrigan Camp. Please give a buz when you get a chance.

Later,

[RevIV]

Wow Joe you must of read back awhile, I had forgotten about the slappin' Matt and I got for Lumping certain people together. I think i was in Japan at the time. I think i only got angry when people were saying we "East Coasters" were looking for a bone from Sijo Emperado for identity.
//off subject// I just saw something at the top of my screen. In the bold Kajukenbo and its definition it has for "bo" (chinese boxing)//
Joe, thanks for the props, things have been a little crazy over the past few years and people's words have flip flopped, but i can see now that when you wrote things, you honestly thought it was the truth, and when you found out you were wrong you had no problem admitting to it and taking the blame. Joe, as a friend i will say, lets not go down this path again in this thread unless a defense is needed to someone else's attack. There will be no seeing eye to eye with everyone.
In Peace,
Jesse

[Hand Sword]

Great Post! Very well said! Our family can get very heated, as everyone in these forums is well aware. In my opinion, all the members, on all sides, have played a role in the evolutionary process, and, have their place at the table.

[Danjo]

Professor Shuras has taught Kajukenbo for quite awhile at a school in Massachusetts ...

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

[Danjo]

2. Do not post unsubstanciated rumors, like "I heard this", etc.

That should about cover it, and Dan, seriously, let's not play like you don't know either, c'ome on now, we're all more intelligent than that, I would hope so anyway.

Context is all. The "I heard this" was in reference to individuals and organizations, not "movments".



Besides, John also stated: "If I have a personal problem with anyone, I'll talk to them personally. I don't need messengers, or a forum to talk to them."

Evidently, if John wishes to say something to me about this, I guess it will be between he and I since he states when he has a problem with someone, he will address it himself personally. So, I'm sure he doesn't want you involved in this. I always try, yes try, to be respectful when I post and I even try with John even though of our recent past history BUT he always seems to find a way and you have done this too, to throw a shot ro two. Not only me, but I noticed he does it to others.

Seems that you're the one that jumped on this today Joe. John didn't mention anyone.



There's an M/T thread, an old one with Kimo Ferriera (the subject), Matt and John. John had some things to say and Matt honestly thought, at that time anyway, that John meant no offense and was just watching out for him so that he gets all his facts straight BUT several others including myself had communicated via pm and knew at the time John was firing a missile or two in Matt's direction because he's Kimo's student. Not right, Matt's a good guy and a very serious martial artist.

Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!



Then I look at this thread, another one of Matt's posts and Jesse also posted in support of Matt, (I know Jesse also personally, great guy) and yet John fires a couple of salvos at them.....again, not right.

Another thread not too long ago John got down on a poster a bit (can't remember who it was but it was on M/T) because the guy mentioned that the Bo in Kajukenbo stood for Chinese Boxing alone. John comes back at him saying how this is more misinformation being passed on and given life, etc. (I'm paraphrasing but he used the term 'misinformation' and this was the gist of it), and that the bo stands for Chinese Boxing and Western Boxing.

Low and behold, it was obviously John's articles this guy read stating the bo was for Chinese boxing. John stated once that the magazines take creative liberty with his articles at times, well, may I refer you to a 1989 (November) thesis by John Evan Bishop, a requirement for his shodan from Joe Rosas that was mailed to me and the only bo mentioned in Kajukenbo by John in this thesis was Chinese BOxing. No editors or publishers tainted the well here. Yes, in articles when Choo is mentioned, his boxing is part of his bio or credentials, but it was not listed as being the "Bo" with Chinese boxing in Kajukenbo. I believe he owes that poster a clarification and an apology for he was just parroting what John used to write.

Hey, I didn't write the thesis, he did. I would like to see things put aside on these forums so we can have good discussions but everyone is going to have want to - Joe

So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?

[RevIV]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

Richard Fecina has a rank in Kajukenbo also. Is this one honorary too? Like you Danjo i am not trying to slam, just trying to get facts on another subject. Someone told me he was going up for 9th in Kajukenbo, has this happened yet?
In Peace
Jesse-
wow -its getting late, how these forums can get your mind running...or is the word numbing?

[Danjo]

Richard Fecina has a rank in Kajukenbo also. Is this one honorary too? Like you Danjo i am not trying to slam, just trying to get facts on another subject. Someone told me he was going up for 9th in Kajukenbo, has this happened yet?
In Peace
Jesse-
wow -its getting late, how these forums can get your mind running...or is the word numbing?

I don't know. I don't have emails from Fescina on the subject like I do from Joe.

[Hand Sword]

Can anyone give the answer to the post's question? Maybe a small layout of the structure used to teach the system?

[RevIV]

I don't know. I don't have emails from Fescina on the subject like I do from Joe.

Thanks.

[Carol]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

Thanks Danjo! Sorry about the goof, I appreciate the clarification. :asian:

[bakxierboxer]

I meant this to be private.

[Joe Shuras]

You're mistaken on that one. Joe teaches "American Kempo of Karazenpo" He had his training from Villari's SKK, then he went under Nick Cerio and then under George Pesare. He recieved an honorary 7th degree in Kajukenbo and some other arts a few years ago, but he doesn't actually teach it (or know it as far as I understand things). That's not a slam on the arts he actually has studied (lest I should be accused of saying derogatory things about non-Kajukenbo arts again), but we should be accurate here.

No slam at all, Dan is correct and thank you for clarifying it, Dan. Outside of one Palama set from Kajukenbo, I teach from the Gascon/Pesare/Cerio/Villari lineage. I will answer you post in a bit, Dan, I have some catching up here to do, lol. - Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Okay, no, the rank I recieved in Kajukenbo was from Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii and it was not honorary and I didn't ask for it in any way, shape or form. This has all been discussed in depth on other threads and forums so I'll keep it short. Gerry made it a point to say it is not honorary. If it were, it would not be on the official Kajukenbo tree and it is. I have a 7th and 8th from SGM. Pesare and a 7th from GGM. Gascon. Another 7th from Prof. Jaime Abregana and Prof. John Pagdilao of Hawaii all recognizing my original 7th. Gerry and I just hooked up recently in Boston and discussed all this history. He is extremely knowledgable and I noticed John used his name among others in a recent post as a credible source to back up something he was debating. Any questions, please refer them to Professor Scott. Pm me if you want his e-mail address. I won't give his phone # w/o his permission.

From what I understood from John, Rich Fescina's rank with Kajukenbo is not honorary either, if I'm wrong I stand corrected but this is what I was told at the time. However, he does teach the Kenpo/Kempo from the same lineage as myself.

To Gufbal: Look at it this way, I am just as much an authority of Kajukenbo as John Bishop is on Karazenpo. Why do you ask me this and not him, in all due respect? He has been debating KGS history with the same passion as I retort back with Kajukenbo history and frankly, I'm sick of it. Again, I don't think you know our history on the various forums over these controversies. I will make an offer, John should stick with Kajukenbo history and keep out of KGS business and, by the same token, I'll stick with KGS history and keep out of Kajukenbo business. Fair enough? So, in a sense, I agree with you but you only saw one side of the coin - Joe

Let me calrify one thing that was posted by Dan earlier before I go on. He mentioned KGS history being updated after the death of Prof. Godin. This situation or revelation between Mr. Godin & Mr. Gascon took place before the death of Prof. Godin.

I have been sent a thesis written by you in 1989, John Evan Bishop, a slight correction from my last post it was October not November of 1989.

"The History and Evolution of Chinese Kenpo Karate A thesis submitted to Rosas Chino Kenpo Karate in partial fullfillment of the rquirements for the ran of Shodan Kenpo Karate October, 1989 Copyright pending by John Evan Bishop."

I see many similarities between our systems and lineages that John and Dan have chosen to pick us apart for in the past, sometimes being a little subtle and other times right out there in our faces. For instance, we're reminded George Pesare began with four forms but you never told me that Joe Rosas started with four forms, (page 65). Mr. Rosas was actually taught 5 katas (but dropped the 5th from his curriculum) but later created two more hand katas and two weapons kata for a total of 6 Empty hand and 2 Weapon. You also that many of the Kajukenbo instrcutors added techniques from other systems (the same as Mr. Pesare did) due to being distanced from the mother school by thousands of miles (page 49 & 65). These forms had elements of only up to the 6 short Kajukenbo pinans originally taught by Sijo Emperado. Rosas' instructor was Dan Guzman. You have Dan Guzman starting Kajukenbo in 1960 (after some training in kendo in the late 50's (page 61). You state he began teaching in 1961 and on August 1, 1963 promoted to black belt by Bill Ryusaki - page 61. You even stated you believed that Leoning's innovations were responsible for the foundation of what Rosas taught (the original forms). You never mentioned that before either in all these history exposes in our debates. Mr. Rosas developed a total of 25 punch counters for his system, this is, again, after he left, and once advanced, students had to learn them mirror image. Mr. Pesare developed 21 combinations after he left and at brown belt it was required to have them all down mirror image. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Villari's SKK has a standard of 26 combinations to 'shodan' with all done mirror image at brown. You state on page 25 Mr. Rosas first and only instructor was Dan Guzman and Guzman retired in 1972 (page 62). Note: Rosas later added 1 knife set containing 10 defenses against a knife and 2 Staff sets - page 64.

Joe Rosas started in 1964, made shodan in 1968 and nidan in 1969. You stated in October of '89, Dan Guzman was his one and only only instructor and that Guzman retired in 1972. (page 62). You state that Rosas just continued on his own to refine and develop his own perspective, actually stated 're-evaluating and improving' (page 64). Gee, sounds a little like Mr. Villari (and others)......anyway, Villari started in 1967 to 1971 under Nick Cerio, made nidan, (probationary) in 1971 and went on to do his own thing. Yet, you have posted in the past how Villari went his merry way (not your exact words but certainly your tone) after getting his probationary nidan from Cerio and promoted himself to 10th in his own organization/system, all said with a touch of sarcasim to say the least. You mention no rank of Mr. Rosas after 2nd dan ( page 62).


For the record, this is no slap at Joe Rosas at all for reading John's bio on him in his thesis, he appears to be an extremely talented and dedicated leader. Many martial artists in all styles and systems market their arts to make a living and essentially run it as a business and that's their perrogative but Mr. Joe Rosas, much like Mr. S. George Pesare and Mr. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon, is not really commerical and I commend and respect him for that. Mr. Rosas has promoted only 8 to black belts up to October of 1989, again, my hat goes off to him! (page 64). Mr. Rosas also taught for little monetary award and and Mr. Bishop witnessed him putting back into the program the money he was paid (page 63 & 64). Sounds like a helluva guy and a credit to his teachers and the martial arts in general.

You also have John Leoning dying of an aneurism in 1978 at 42 (page 58) when in fact he died at 50 in 1977 of a massive coronary. As I stated no one is 100 per cent in their reporting of history. I'm sure at the time you were convinced this to be fact.

There may be some here that do not see the points I have attempted to make regarding the similiarites in quantity of curriculum and other protocols, teaching criteria, dates, etc., that was a common thread among ALL the Hawaiian derived Kempo/Kenpo systems of that early era from the Mitose/Chow lineage, simply because they have not been following other threads and forums. All my examples are pertinent to prior discussions and heated debates or else I would have not wasted my time doing this 'homework'. Jesse, Matt, Mike, Peter and others can all attest to this. My whole point here is not to alienate us but to bring us together for we in this large Kempo/Kenpo extended family share many more similarities in background, history and function then we do differences. No one or art from this group is superior than any other.

All in all, it was an excellent thesis and I have great respect and admiration for John Leoning, Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman and Joe Rosas (the names I highlighted from the thesis).

Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe Shuras - Massachusetts State president of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society.

[Joe Shuras]

Context is all. The "I heard this" was in reference to individuals and organizations, not "movments".



Seems that you're the one that jumped on this today Joe. John didn't mention anyone.



Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!



So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?


Dan, first of all John didn't have to mention any names, c'ome on now. Take a vote here if you want using pm's for those that know the history we have been debating for sometime now and see if they had any problem connecting the dots. Since Sonny Gascon is the founder of the KGS BBS, it does involve an organization. Let's not play word games here. To reitierate, there's no conspiracy theory going on here and I'm sorry if John did not expect a reaction after posting that, really now.......

Dan wrote: Ummm...PMs from un-named sources? Talk about unsubstantiated!

Dan, you're reaching on this one. Please do not take that out of context. Yes, it was the opinion of some of us on the thread that John was planting a few land mines on Matt's turf but we did not want to 'stir the pot' at the time and that's why the pm's were used. Don't believe it, that's your perrogative.

Dan, please.....the old posts I used is because whenever I put John on the spot on things he wrote in past, he would tell me to prove it, go find it and show me, remember? So, I did. Dan, you have stirred the proverbial pot many times, I don't think I would have to look to far on the various threads or forums to show that, you of all people should not accuse anyone else of the same...it's hypocritical. My intention was not to stir the pot, I just had it with all this b.s., perhaps now, we can finally all move on. I promised I would get back to you on your post, I did not write this to get any bad blood started. Take care & be safe, Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Wow Joe you must of read back awhile, I had forgotten about the slappin' Matt and I got for Lumping certain people together. I think i was in Japan at the time. I think i only got angry when people were saying we "East Coasters" were looking for a bone from Sijo Emperado for identity.
//off subject// I just saw something at the top of my screen. In the bold Kajukenbo and its definition it has for "bo" (chinese boxing)//
Joe, thanks for the props, things have been a little crazy over the past few years and people's words have flip flopped, but i can see now that when you wrote things, you honestly thought it was the truth, and when you found out you were wrong you had no problem admitting to it and taking the blame. Joe, as a friend i will say, lets not go down this path again in this thread unless a defense is needed to someone else's attack. There will be no seeing eye to eye with everyone.
In Peace,
Jesse

Jesse, when we get into the history, as I have said countless times before, you can only go by what you are told from who you believe to be reliable sources and what written records exist and sometimes these are not correct or accurate. Once we find that out, we cannot go on perpetuating these myths, I do my best to make the corrections and move on. Some wish not to, fine, you can't change the world. I am in total agreement with you, let's all move on from here.

Rememeber in good faith, Nick Cerio had told some of us, myself included, that Circle of the Panther was based on George Pesare's #6 Kata, yet we could never see the connection. Then, Matt and myself did some digging and realized it was based on George Pesare's #7 Kata which also inspired SKK's Swift Tigers. Nick Cerio must have got them mixed up since at the time when he told me, it was like 26 years or more since he left Mr. Pesare's school. Prof. Cerio was a reliable source, how much more reliable can you get? lol, afterall, he created Panther from #7 kata, lol, see what I mean? Take care and be safe my brother, Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Hey Joe,

"J.Madriaga" is not Mr. Mailman. The info on Kata 3 is on the report by J.Madriaga. Who he is I do not know. I was under the impression that he was with Corrigan Camp. Please give a buz when you get a chance.

Later,

Peter, so I don't have to search for your number in my archives (I'm burnt out right now from all this stuff, lol), e-mail it. Thanks, Joe

[RevIV]

Joe,
This last larger post comparing the similarities and development of the systems is by far one of the best i have read in awhile if not the best. Thank you for this one. I have to start printing these out. I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history. I require certain history questions per rank of my students. Sometimes written exams are given before the physical, If you do not pass the written you cannot pass the test. Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history.
In Peace
Jesse

[Joe Shuras]

Joe,
This last larger post comparing the similarities and development of the systems is by far one of the best i have read in awhile if not the best. Thank you for this one. I have to start printing these out. I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history. I require certain history questions per rank of my students. Sometimes written exams are given before the physical, If you do not pass the written you cannot pass the test. Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history.
In Peace
Jesse


Thanks Jesse but it all came from John's thesis, that's why I referenced all the page numbers so everything would be accurate in my reporting from the source. As you know, I've had my differences with John but I call it like it is and that was a damn good thesis. There is much more there, something like 70 pages in all, but I felt what I posted summed up and supported what I have been saying. I'd love to give you a copy, along with Matt, Mike and Peter but it says 'copyright pending' and I have to respect that.

Jesse stated: "I am confusing the daylights out of my students with the changes in history." "Now these questions were mostly created By Sigung Duncan out of NY over 10 years ago... needless to say some of them are obsolete now due to recent corrections of history."

Jesse, exactly what I have been going through and it started with the history of James Mitose, that's what Bruce Corrigan cued me in on years ago. Yes, like you, whenever I had historical information, I thought it to be accurate due to the sources, etc. and would print it in good faith. However, now, I am very cynical and suspicious of everything, lol.

Hey, just explain to them about the twists and turns in all history, not just the martial arts but history period and always remember, the history we get of anything comes from the perspective of the historian. Imagine 100 years from now the variety of what will be written about this time period of World History if the historians were a Democrat, a Republican, Independant, far left, far right or came from France, Russia, Germany, Spain and Iran! If we could view it today we'd probably jump up and down and yell: Hey, that's not how it went down, I was there, I lived it! Such is history, we can only do the best we can. Take care my friend, your brother, Joe

[Joe Shuras]

Jesse, here is something Bruce Corrigan had posted on MAP a little while ago in case you missed it.

18-Jan-2007, 11:03 PM
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 5



The following message is from Bruce Corrigan


This is not my logon – and I rarely make any contribution to any forum. However, I felt compelled since I keep seeing my name used for purposes of quoting things. I have no problem being quoted, but there is always a danger in being misquoted. These forums are like the newspaper; if people see it on a forum, they tend to believe it as gospel. With that, I will add my 2 cents for what it is worth.

1. There should never be a dispute between KAJUKENBO and KARAZENPO GO SHINJUTSU. Time has made these two very separate things. It would be just as absurd to have Shotokan members arguing with Shorin Ryu members. It needs to go to sleep. Also, all who dispute it need to take a break!
2. Realize that all who are viewed as experts might not be experts. Verbal history changes over time. The story surrounding all martial arts systems has been largely verbal since they each began. Can anyone really remember the specific date they met someone, or promoted every person? Believe me, there has been a lot of backdating of certificates, denial of previous promotions, unfounded claims, etc. So who knows who is telling the truth or is accurate. Better yet, who really cares, and does it REALLY matter? Every person begins their own lineage. There is no need to look for identity if you already have it. If you don’t have an identity, you won’t get it tying your name to another.
3. Today we have hundreds of schools teaching Mixed Martial Arts (MMA) and MMA is the hottest thing. SO, who has the authentic MMA, and who is teaching it correctly. Better yet…. Who should judge? Same goes here – Sonny Gascon once said to me: “ this is America, everyone can teach what they want.”
4. Realize, there is no “Authentic Way” the “way” has changed so much no one knows what is the first way. Hell, I learned each form at least 4 different ways. Funny thing is that each teacher told me this was the authentic way.
5. About Sonny Gascon and Karazenpo’s beginning. I know for a fact he started with his own students around 1958, and I know he formalized the name Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu shortly after. I even have a copy of his original business license. I have my differences with SiJo Gascon, but no one can dispute his formation of what we call Karazenpo. So saying anything about his authenticity is total nonsense. Karazenpo is his, and he can do or say whatever he likes – because Sonny fears no one.
6. George Pesare – Here is the man with the knowledge – he is the “lion” of Kempo. Old school knowledge, and knowledge put to the test. I have my differences with George also, but he is what I consider the major catalyst for Kempo in America. I know this is a bold statement, but count how many have descended from him in one way or another. I like to think that I began the “history revolution” of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. However, without George, we still wouldn’t know about Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu. When I met George, he didn’t know whether Sonny Gascon was alive or dead, but on the first night I met him, he told me Sonny’s name and paid credit and reverence to him. I have heard that there are problems between Sonny and George today. No matter what, I know for a fact that George has always shown respect for Sonny Gascon’s name, even to me, even when I was a stranger in George’s presence.
7. Joe Shuras – He’s the real deal, and if he says anything….it is with sincerity. He may not always be accurate, but he is no liar and doesn’t have to be. I don’t want to even begin to get involved with KGSBBS politics, and I am beyond a doubt not associated with them nor wish to be. BUT if I had a vote, Joe should be the 9th degree.

OK, so who is responsible for what techniques and what forms? Who the hell cares??? Just do them, or choose not to….but arguing about it is fruitless. This method began almost 50 years ago. Who can say what was 20 years ago, let alone 50.

[Joe Shuras]

And here's something from Matt Barnes:

Quote:
Philip Gelinas (kenbocan@dsuper.net) Subject: Re: Sonny Gascon / shaolin kempo
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1998/02/07
MattBarnz wrote:
> > I visited the site where the karazenpo go shinjutsu folks posted the Sonny
> Gascon story and was very interested. Does anyone have any additional > information on this group or Sonny Gascon. My feeble browser (on my feeble
> computer) wouldn't let me access the whole site. Are there any members of the
> association that post? I have been trying to gather a comprehensive history of
> the kempo arts (parker/ non- parker) and have found many interesting postings,
> but am still trying to fill in many gaps. Please feel free to reply to the
> group or to email me as you feel is appropriate.
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Matt
> mattbarnz@aol.com (http://by133fd.bay133.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?mailto=1&msg=8868C30A-52FF-499A-8732-2AEE92AB28AE&start=0&len=3143&src=&type=x&to=mattbarnz@aol.com&cc=&bcc=&subject=&body=&curmbox=EF7B5B18-44A3-44D1-92EB-1491BD34A1D0&a=2e617a4588e4996a91f5fde5a06be46678591b89c8486540 ce30ff541bcf8b08)

Sonny Gascon is indeed the real deal. He was the instructor for east coast pioneer/legend George Pesare in the late 50's -early 60's and a legitimat student of Kajukenbo under Adriano Emperado before that. I know this to be true as I am the official keeper of the kajukenbo family tree as aknowleged by Sijo Emperado, and many more persons too extensive to list here. Bruce Corrigan, the keeper of the Karazenpo Goshin Jitsiu web site made his original connections to Sonny Gascon via information I was able to provide. P Gelinas

[Danjo]

Okay, no, the rank I recieved in Kajukenbo was from Professor Gerry Scott of Hawaii and it was not honorary and I didn't ask for it in any way, shape or form. This has all been discussed in depth on other threads and forums so I'll keep it short. Gerry made it a point to say it is not honorary. If it were, it would not be on the official Kajukenbo tree and it is.

Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?

[Hand Sword]

How about something crazy like.......Answering the threads question? Can anyone do that? Is it it's own style, with unique forms, combo's, etc. or is the SKK way, the same?

[Danjo]

And here's something from Matt Barnes:

Quote:
Philip Gelinas (kenbocan@dsuper.net) Subject: Re: Sonny Gascon / shaolin kempo
View: Complete Thread (2 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1998/02/07
MattBarnz wrote:
> > I visited the site where the karazenpo go shinjutsu folks posted the Sonny
> Gascon story and was very interested. Does anyone have any additional > information on this group or Sonny Gascon. My feeble browser (on my feeble
> computer) wouldn't let me access the whole site. Are there any members of the
> association that post? I have been trying to gather a comprehensive history of
> the kempo arts (parker/ non- parker) and have found many interesting postings,
> but am still trying to fill in many gaps. Please feel free to reply to the
> group or to email me as you feel is appropriate.
>
> Thank you for your time,
>
> Matt
> mattbarnz@aol.com (http://by133fd.bay133.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?mailto=1&msg=8868C30A-52FF-499A-8732-2AEE92AB28AE&start=0&len=3143&src=&type=x&to=mattbarnz@aol.com&cc=&bcc=&subject=&body=&curmbox=EF7B5B18-44A3-44D1-92EB-1491BD34A1D0&a=2e617a4588e4996a91f5fde5a06be46678591b89c8486540 ce30ff541bcf8b08)

Sonny Gascon is indeed the real deal. He was the instructor for east coast pioneer/legend George Pesare in the late 50's -early 60's and a legitimat student of Kajukenbo under Adriano Emperado before that. I know this to be true as I am the official keeper of the kajukenbo family tree as aknowleged by Sijo Emperado, and many more persons too extensive to list here. Bruce Corrigan, the keeper of the Karazenpo Goshin Jitsiu web site made his original connections to Sonny Gascon via information I was able to provide. P Gelinas

Well, for completeness sake, here's one from SGM Pesare:

"From: "GEORGE PESARE" <gpesare7@hotmail.com>
To: fssd@sbcglobal.yahoo.com, Jake.Hansen@polycom.com
CC: jshuras@hotmail.com
Subject: RE: Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu and Chinese Kempo
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2006 21:06:38 -0400






HELLO DAVID
THANK YOU FOR YOUR COMMUNICATION REGARDING THE KARAZENPO-GO-SHINJUSTSU, I REALIZE YOU PROBABLY HAVE MANY QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT YOU TEACH, UNFORTUNATELY IN THAT AREA THEIR ARE MANY DOUBLE CROSSINGS AND LIES THAT HAVE COMPLETELY FALSIFIED THE TRUE KENPO/KEMPO MARTIAL ARTS, AND UNFORTUNATELY GODIN AND GASCON ARE SOME OF THE CULPRITS.


VICTOR GASCON AND WALTER GODIN WERE BROTHER IN LAWS, VICTOR HAD MARRIED GODIN'S SISTER GRACE, EVENTUALLY THEY GOT DIVORCED, GASCON AND GODIN HAD A FALLING OUT WITH EMPERADO, SO GASCON AND GODIN FOUNDED A NAME NOT A STYLE, BECAUSE WHAT GASCON KNEW WAS TAUGHT TO HIM BY "JOHN LEONNING" SO GODIN AND GASCON CALLED THEIR SYSTEM KGS, BUT IT WAS THE SAME AS TAUGHT BY JOHN LEONNING, SO GO FIGURE THAT,,..

VICTOR'S SCHOOL WAS SMALL AND GODIN GOT DISINTERESTED AND WENT BACK TO HAWAII, SHORTLY THERAFTER VICTOR FOLLOWED SUIT, AND NEITHER TAUGHT KENPO KARATE IN HAWAII BECAUSE THE HAWAIIANS ALL NEW THE MARTIAL ARTS AND THEY COULD NOT TEACH ANYTHING NEW, (CONTRARY TO POPULAR BELIEF) GODIN LIVED LIKE A BUM AND GASCON WENT TO WORK FOR THE UNION "BREAKING LEGS" AND RETIRED FROM THE MARTIAL ARTS COMPLETLY UNTIL THE FAMOUS DAY THAT SOMEONE TOLD THEM THAT THEY COULD MAKE MONEY FROM THE HOULE'S "MAINLAND DOPES"..

YOU ASKED QUESTIONS, AND I ANSWERED THEM A BIT, I LIVED AMONG THESE PEOPLE AND EARNED MY BLACK BELT, AND RETURNED AND FOUNDED KENPO/KEMPO KARATE IN NEW ENGLAND IN 1960, GO ON LINE AND REQUEST "GEORGE PESARE" YOU MAY BE SURPRISED, TO KEEP THE RECORD STRAIGHT, I TAUGHT NICK CERIO, AND NOT FRED VILLARI, I LEAVE THAT HONOR TO NICK CERIO.

YOU MAY THINK WHAT YOU ARE READING IS A LOT, NO MY FRIEND, WHAT I WROTE IS WHAT YOU CAN SEE THROUGH THE EYE OF A NEEDLE, IF YOU WISH MORE, LET ME KNOW.
S. GEORGE PESARE


"WE WILL BE KNOWN FOREVER"
" BY THE TRACKS WE LEAVE" "

[RevIV]

Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?


You should ask your seniors what Prof. Shuras did to get his rank. He was told that it was not Honorary. Or do you think that would be disrespectful to question the seniors in your organization? I remember you saying once that you do not ask when you will test, your teacher will tell you when you are ready. This holds true for us too. Then again, if this is not an Honorary rank, this makes Prof. Shuras your senior, in your system. Making the very question disrespectful?
In Peace,
Jesse

[RevIV]

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute :)

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle. :)

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse

[John Bishop]

To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse

This topic is 2 1/2 years old. I thought most of the original questions were asked and answered back then.

To you Jesse, there is no official manual of Kajukenbo techniques, there are video recordings of the techniques of the "Original Method".
The first 9 tape series was produced by Panther Productions in 1986, and certified by Sijo Emperado.
The second 8 tape series was done in 1991 by "Emperado's World Kajukenbo Organization", certified by Sijo Emperado, and also the "International Kajukenbo Association" (the governing body for Kajukenbo at the time).
A video documentation of the 26 "Alphabet" techniques was also produced by MAD Productions in 2004.
These are the historical record of the techniques of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. This method is also known as the "Original Hard Style Method", or "Kenpo Karate Branch".
So yes the techniques are there for everyone to see.
There are other branches of Kajukenbo, but these came after Karazenpo, so they wouldn't have any value in a comparrison to Karazenpo or Shaolin Kempo.
Mr. Villari has also documented his system in a series of video tapes. So in this media rich age, it's pretty easy to make comparrisons between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.
Now until the Karazenpo people document their techniques in written or video form, your probably not going to be able to bridge the gap between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.

As to discussions of who has what rank.
This has been discussed quit a bit by the Kajukenbo seniors. In July of last year in a meeting of The Council of Grandmasters, it was discussed again, as was the Kajukenbo Family Tree.
The feeling of most of the seniors concerning rank is this:

There are basically 3 forms of black belt rank in Kajukenbo;

"Tested rank", which is self explanitory.
"Earned rank", which is awarded to higher ranking black belts who no longer are required to test. It is "earned" by their many years of dedication to the practice and/or teaching of Kajukenbo.
"Honorary rank", which can be awarded for many reasons, but usually only to someone who has a lineage connection to Kajukenbo.

As to the "Kajukenbo Family Tree". The project started in the 80's to try and keep track of the Kajukenbo black belts around the world. And also to verify who was a Kajukenbo black belt, as many were claiming to be who were not.
The tree grew into a huge project, with many groups wanting to be listed on it to show their "roots".
Well the official family tree is here for all to see (at least the 2005 edition).

http://www.leewardkenpokarate.com/tree/tree.htm

It is in no way a indicator of "who is Kajukenbo". As you can plainly see, Sonny Gascon, George Pesare, Nick Cerio, and many others who ARE NOT, and have NEVER claimed to be Kajukenbo stylists, are listed on it.
They have been added to it by THEIR request, to show a historical lineage to Kajukenbo. Not as a way to claim rank in Kajukenbo.

[Danjo]

You should ask your seniors what Prof. Shuras did to get his rank. He was told that it was not Honorary. Or do you think that would be disrespectful to question the seniors in your organization? I remember you saying once that you do not ask when you will test, your teacher will tell you when you are ready. This holds true for us too. Then again, if this is not an Honorary rank, this makes Prof. Shuras your senior, in your system. Making the very question disrespectful?
In Peace,
Jesse

Asking when I will be testing and asking when someone else tested are two different matters. The first is disrespectful because it indicates that your instructor is being remiss in letting you know. The second is totally normal and reasonable. It's why people have certificates etc. etc. It is not supposed to be a secret when someone tested for rank. To my mind, if you hold rank in an art that you never trained in, then that rank is honorary.

[RevIV]

This topic is 2 1/2 years old. I thought most of the original questions were asked and answered back then.

To you Jesse, there is no official manual of Kajukenbo techniques, there are video recordings of the techniques of the "Original Method".
The first 9 tape series was produced by Panther Productions in 1986, and certified by Sijo Emperado.
The second 8 tape series was done in 1991 by "Emperado's World Kajukenbo Organization", certified by Sijo Emperado, and also the "International Kajukenbo Association" (the governing body for Kajukenbo at the time).
A video documentation of the 26 "Alphabet" techniques was also produced by MAD Productions in 2004.
These are the historical record of the techniques of the "Original Method" of Kajukenbo. This method is also known as the "Original Hard Style Method", or "Kenpo Karate Branch".
So yes the techniques are there for everyone to see.
There are other branches of Kajukenbo, but these came after Karazenpo, so they wouldn't have any value in a comparrison to Karazenpo or Shaolin Kempo.
Mr. Villari has also documented his system in a series of video tapes. So in this media rich age, it's pretty easy to make comparrisons between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.
Now until the Karazenpo people document their techniques in written or video form, your probably not going to be able to bridge the gap between Kajukenbo and Shaolin Kempo.

.

Excellent, thank you very much Mr. Bishop. I will look for these tapes for my collection. I truly hope the the KGS system comes out with their original material, I would like to compare it to my own which is many generations down the line... Danjo, i understand both of your statements on asking when you are testing and asking when someone tested. But i your sentence started with this " how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study " then ended with when you got it. This i could consider as disrespectful and others may not.
In Peace
Jesse

[Danjo]

Danjo, i understand both of your statements on asking when you are testing and asking when someone tested. But i your sentence started with this " how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study " then ended with when you got it. This i could consider as disrespectful and others may not.
In Peace
Jesse

All are reasonable questions. When he got it would be irrelevant unless the other questions were also answered.

[Hand Sword]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-Hand Sword
-MT Moderator-

[RevIV]

All are reasonable questions. When he got it would be irrelevant unless the other questions were also answered.

What if you do not like the answer.. He still has the rank, and he was told that it was not an honorary. Does this make your senior instructors who signed the diploma wrong? People talk about other organizations doing it, but when its in your own house it seems different. Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse

[John Bishop]

Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse

Just click on the link and look at the tree. There's probably over a 100 people on the tree who are not Kajukenbo, and don't claim to be. You'll probably recognize George Pesare and many of his black belts on the tree. Nick Cerio and several of his black belts. Craig Seavey, John James, Bill Gregory, Bruce Corrigan, Lou Farralon, Roger Carpenter, Paula Pucino, and many more.

[Carol]

Just click on the link and look at the tree. There's probably over a 100 people on the tree who are not Kajukenbo, and don't claim to be. You'll probably recognize George Pesare and many of his black belts on the tree. Nick Cerio and several of his black belts. Craig Seavey, John James, Bill Gregory, Bruce Corrigan, Lou Farralon, Roger Carpenter, Paula Pucino, and many more.

So...speaking as a total idiot here...how is one supposed to tell who is Kajukenbo and who is not? I'm definitely seening names of people that I know aren't Kajukenbo...such as Ed Parker. And I can see names like Kosho Ryu, Kenpo, and Kung Fu. However, it's not really clear to me what is what and who is who. Not to sound dense (well OK, I am dense...LOL), but am I missing something? Or do you just have to know who the players are and where they fall?

[Danjo]

What if you do not like the answer.. He still has the rank, and he was told that it was not an honorary. Does this make your senior instructors who signed the diploma wrong? People talk about other organizations doing it, but when its in your own house it seems different. Mr. Bishop says there are a few people who are on the Kajukenbo tree, but are not Kajukenbo. This i do not understand. I have not looked at the tree, but is there a disclaimer that states this, or only people reading this forum aware of this fact?
Jesse

I know the answer. My seniors in the art I train in do not answer to me for what they do or why. However, when someone claims expertise in something that I happen to know they are not an expert in I will bring it out.

As to the rank not being honorary, let me remind you of something Abraham Lincoln used to love to say. He would ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When people would answer "Five." He'd give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg."

[John Bishop]

So...speaking as a total idiot here...how is one supposed to tell who is Kajukenbo and who is not? I'm definitely seening names of people that I know aren't Kajukenbo...such as Ed Parker. And I can see names like Kosho Ryu, Kenpo, and Kung Fu. However, it's not really clear to me what is what and who is who. Not to sound dense (well OK, I am dense...LOL), but am I missing something? Or do you just have to know who the players are and where they fall?

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'. Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.
Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

[Carol]

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'.


Understood. I actually saved it to my hard drive so I could open it up in a photo editor and used the zoom function to see a bit better. But you are right, it is quite a challenge to take it all in. :)



Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.


Makes a lot of sense now.



Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

Thanks so much for your help. That makes it a little less confusing, althouth I think my head is still spinning... :lol:

[Matt]

It's hard to picture the whole thing on the website because the hard copy of the document is about 3' X 5'. Your seeing "Ed Parker" on there because William Chow is listed as Sijo Emperado's teacher, and several of Chow's black belts are listed under Chow. Obviously they are not Kajukenbo, except for Abe Kamahoahoa.
The instructors and systems of the other founders are listed above them, so you are seeing kung fu, jujitsu, judo, etc. And names like Henry Okazaki, Sig Kufferath.
Like I said, it's turned into a huge project because of all the groups who wanted inclusion on the tree. It has gone from a "Kajukenbo" tree to a "Emperado" tree.
Systems listed on the tree that are not Kajukenbo are: CHA-3 Kenpo, Kenkabo, Ken-Ka Kung Fu, Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu, George Pesare's Kempo, Universal Kempo, Chinese Kempo, Hawaiian Kenpo, Kajukenpo Pai Lum, Goshin-Jutsu Kenpo, White Tiger Kempo, Kenbo-aii, Ju Ka Kung Kenpo, and a few more I can't remember right now.

Isn't White Tiger Kempo a Villari offshoot? What's that doing there?

Matt

[Joe Shuras]

Okay, so if it's not honorary, how did you earn it? How much Kajukenbo did you study and when did you test for rank in Kajukenbo before getting the certification?

What's this, the Spanish Inquisition? lol. Please read my post again. I stated and you know this, the Kajukenbo cert. was discussed in depth before with you too, so you're being cute because you not only know the answers but it was discussed on a public forum before (MAP). You recently accused me of drudging up old posts to stir the pot, yet, this is your m.o. Dan and you've done it again but that's fine. Pot calling the kettle black? To be honest, and I hate to sound arrogant but I really don't have to answer any questions from you for who are you anyway? The way I was brought through the ranks, an underbelt like yourself was seen and not heard and this was not only in kempo/kenpo but in all arts. An instructor would be obligated to "pull back the reins" on a student, a brown belt, who copped an attitude in public of disrespect but that was then.... As "The Rock" says, "Know your role", but I will answer anyway.

For one thing, never said I studied Kajukenbo. Like you originally did, Dan, I took some information from the videos John Bishop had sent me. Never was tested in Kajukenbo BUT was floor tested for 7th by SGM. Pesare for 7th, also elevated to 8th by SGM. Pesare (no floor test), and I was also floor tested by Nick Cerio for a 6th in American Kenpo (KGS), shihan title (seperate of rank) and also a 3rd in the curriculum of NCK. I think those a pretty fair credentials. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of high dan ranks are not usually floor tested for, not only in the kenpo arts but in most others that I know of.

Here ya go, Dan:


The Controversy of Black Belt Degrees

There has been much controversy on black belt degree rank promotions. I was a history major in college and always was facinated with the subject, so I guess I later carried that into the martial arts. I tried to condense some of my research over the years and here's some excerpts. Although excerpts, none were taken out of context, I just wished to get to the 'meat & potatoes' of the information given. However, I provided links and information so that you may be able to see this information in it's entirety if you wish. I copied everything exactly the way it was written and included a couple of my own comments. Enjoy.........

The following information was excerpted from an article entiled: What is Rank? and can be found at http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/rank.htm (http://www.russbo.com/seidokan/rank.htm).

"Even in the black belt ranks there has been an evolution. Funakoshi himself only held a fifth dan, and that was rather arbitrarily awarded in order for him to have a teaching level rank that would be comprehended by the Japan Martial Arts Commision, Nihon Butokukai. It is through politics and propaganda that the current 10th dan rank evolved. Even now, skill alone is only the prime factor up to 4th or 5th degree black belt levels. *NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, also found something smiliar in the book Chinese Kenpo (Kung Fu) by Willaim D. Scott. Scott was a graduate student of Temple University in Ohio and studied Okiawan Kenpo Karate under Sensei Peter Becker and Master Goh. On page 7 of the 'Introduction' it stated black belt degrees 1st thru 4th are physically attainable and black belt degrees 5th to 8th are awarded for contributions to the art. I would then have to assume 9th was reserved for the Soke-dai (Inheritor-to-be) of the system and the 10th for the one and only Grandmaster of the system. The original article continues:

"Skill, while still a factor in ranking, is combined with politics and age from most promotions from 6th to 7th degree. Politics and age alone are generally the only factors from 8th to 10th degree. The highest-ranking Shotokan man in America before his death, Ozawa Shihan, received his 8th dan from the uncle of the Emperor of Japan, not from a karate board or organization. Now granted, it is a prestigious source of promotion, but there was no testing board or martial arts examination involved. It was based on Ozawa'a immense contribution to karate. and his longevity in the art. Professor Cerio received his Soke (founder) rank of 10th degree from a board of founders, the American Board of Soke. (This board is just one of many such organizations set up for the express purpose of granting rank recognition to advanced martial Artists, or those wish to proclaim new nad individual styles)." * NOTE: I, Prof. Shuras, must make a correction here. I don't believe it was ever called the American Board of Soke but I have seen it written over the years as the World Council of Sokes" or the World Soke Council".The article continues:

"Granted, all of these men needed to possess legitimate and tremendous skill and knowledge, but a promotion from 7th to 10th degree has less to do with that ability than with time and political recognition. Many, indeed, judan in America are self-proclaimed as such or else are elevated through time by their own students and peers and by their achievements rather than by any governing board or body. Such is less frequently the case in Asia where direct appointments are the norm. All of this is intended to put into perspective what rank is and what rank is not."

The following excerpts are taken from the article entitled: Ranking in the Dai Ni Gojuryu System which can be found at http://www.akbba.com/ingka/daini3a.html (http://www.akbba.com/ingka/daini3a.html).

"Tukerii Sensei initally used only white, brown, and black belt ranking, if actual degrees existed, he never mentioned them. With the increasing popularity of karate in the U.S. following the mid 1960's and the influx of numerous commercial schools teaching karate, Sensei, with much encouragement from his students, began to increase the number of colored belts. Initially they were Gokyo-White Belt, Yonkyo-Green Belt, Sankyo-Brown Belt-Nikyu-Brown belt, Ikkyu-Brown Belt, and Black Belt grades of Shodan, Sandan, Yondan, and Godan.

Well, that's it in a nutshell about all this controversy of black belt degrees from three verfiable sources. I report, you decide.


Now Dan, as far as earning a Kajukenbo ranking, don't open up a can of worms, as what is happening in today's Kajukenbo. You, yourself, told me this in a phone conversation that John was not at all happy with some of the rank being issued these days and this was not about me at the time, we were discussing "others". Prof. Scott just recently at our get-together in Boston told me of a high Kajukenbo rank given to a Tang Soo Do black belt who knew nothing of Kajukenbo. So let's not go there, I'm not here to 'stir the pot'. Let it go man, it will do no one any good but I will finsh my answer to your questions....again

However, Prof. Scott recognized my rankings and recognized the historical link we have to Kajukenbo. He did not do this on his own, he spoke to Gm. Edmund Louis for his okay. He told me he also cleared it with Sijo Emperado. He told me he wanted to get Sijo's to sign it and he would have but at the time he was ill, he may have said he was in the hospital or just got out, can't really remember, wasn't that important at the time. He then took my certificate to a tournament in Hawaii and met with some seniors and they agreed to sign it, one of the signatures on it is from Professor Clarence Emperado, Sijo's stepson but let's face it, you won't take my word for it and that's why I said for you to get in touch with Professor Scott for any questions, I have nothing to hide.

Professor Jon Pagdilao also issued me what he calls a Recognition of Rank (7th dan) in Kenpo Karate BUT he would not do this unless he got a unanimous consent from his Board of Directors. I had joined Prof. Jaime Abregana's organization and Jon and Gerry were all connected through it. When I joined, Prof. Abregana and I talked several times and he asked me to send a bio and with the recommendation of Prof. Scott, he issued me a 7th dan Kenpo Karate and appointed me to a position. I previously also had a 7th in KGS personally from GGM. Gascon also. He awarded Kathy and I our teaching certificate, 7th dan KGS w/ auhorization to promote up to 6th dan, in person at John Levesque school in Rhode Island. KenpoJoe Rebelo witnessed this with many others as he too was presented with a cert. for his current rank. Levesque is a George Pesare black belt and fighter and was known for beating Hidy Ochia (TKO) in Rhode Island when Levesque was only a brown belt.

[Joe Shuras]

To the original question, Joe, is the KGS book still coming out? Will it contain the original material taught? This would be a great thing to have in anyones references. Is there a manual of techniques of the Original Method of Kajukenbo Mr. Bishop? This would be an excellent way to cross reference. You list the techniques required but are they written down for the public to see?
Jesse

Jesse, thank you for your support. To answer your question, Jim Spieghts of Rhode Island is assisting in this manuel with GMM. Gascon. In KGS, we delegate specific responsbilites. There have been some setbacks, not pertaining to the manuel or organization, personal, which forced us to postpone get-togethers. Hopefully, 2007 we can get back on track but get in touch with Jimmy for any updates. Thanks, Joe

[Joe Shuras]

I know the answer. My seniors in the art I train in do not answer to me for what they do or why. However, when someone claims expertise in something that I happen to know they are not an expert in I will bring it out.

As to the rank not being honorary, let me remind you of something Abraham Lincoln used to love to say. He would ask people this question: "If you call a tail a leg, how many legs does a dog have?" When people would answer "Five." He'd give them a scathing look and reply, "Four! Calling a tail a leg does not make it a leg."

Again, my friend, you probably haven't seen my post #246 in which I answered your questions and remember, don't say 'claim', I don't 'claim' the rank, I was 'awarded' it and it was 'approved', if that doesn't set well with you, who cares? I don't. You can lose sleep over it if you want, lol. I never laid 'claim' to be an expert in Kajukenbo. How much of an expert in Kajukenbo was Ed Parker? (John stated he studied two weeks in the 50's), yet, didn't he receive an 8th dan from Sijo Emperado? Was Emperado an expert in EPAK? Was he any ranking in EPAK? What gave him the right to do this? (by the way, I agree with Sijo on this, just making a point). Dan, you are opening up a can of worms and it's not going to hurt me..... This is not an uncommon practice and has been going on long before Joe Shuras received his.

[Joe Shuras]

Dan wrote this to me in post #213:

"So you figured that you would go a drudge out all of this just in case it had all blown over and people had put it behind them? Nothing like trying to stir the pot by digging out old posts that people had forgotten about eh?"

I say: See what I mean when I say hypocrisy? The pot calling the kettle black? Look at Dan's post #231 of the e-mail of the past SGM. Pesare. I think, by now, many of us know of the falling out that Mr. Pesare and Mr. Gascon had. I will not divulge what transpired between them. It's not my place, they are my seniors. Ask them. However, this is only one of many, many falling outs between instructor and students over a half of century. Chow & Mitose, Parker & Chow, Tracys & Parker, and beat goes on and on and on...... Just read "The Lost Interview" (Prof. Chow) that's become popular as of late. These things, unfortunately, happen. - Joe

ATTENTION MODERATORS: I RESPECTFULLY ASK FOR A WARNING HERE TO KEEP THIS FROM TURNING INTO A LIFE AND DEATH GRUDGE MATCH. IF YOU READ MY POSTS I AM TRYING TO MOVE ON WITH FRIENDLY AND KNOWLEDGABLE DISCUSSION AND JUST ABOUT EVERYONE HERE SEEMS TO BE DOING THE SAME-ALMOST. THIS IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYONE. THANK YOU.

[MJS]

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