The Original Curiculum of Kajukenbo/Karazenpo [Archive]

Karazenpo

11-19-2004, 11:18 AM

Oh I love these discussions and the information is great! Thank you to all the "old" timers posting. I refer to the term "old" timer as a very respectfull salute :)

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)

I love cross referencing the information.

There is oneside and then there is the otherside, the truth usually is in the middle. :)

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?

Rather then having a black belt family tree, create a curiculum family tree and see who and what was changed?

Hi Mike, this a question I believe Sigung John Bishop can answer. Hopefully, he'll see your post, if not, e-mail him privately. Professor Forbach is his instructor and I don't think there is anything about Kajukenbo history that John doesn't have knowledge of.

John Bishop

11-19-2004, 05:08 PM

Ok the original curriculum that was being taught in the kajukenbo system that was brought over to the mainland by Sonny Gascon before the falling out. Actually before the group broke up?

Is that similar to the old Panther Videos that Gary Forbach had out? (actually are those still available?)
I spent last saturday visiting with Sijo Emperado, and we talked a little bit about John Leoning and Sonny Gascon. I was under the impression that Gascon was a first generation Kajukenbo black belt, because his name is listed under Sijo Emperado on our family tree. Sijo told me that Gascon was in fact John Leoning's student, but that he came under Sijo Emperado after Leoning died in 77. This tells us that there was possibly a relationship between Karazempo and Kajukenbo at that time.
Sijo told me that Leoning was one of his early students from the Palama Settlement school.
When Marino Tiwanak started his school at the CHA-3 building, Sijo told Tiwanak he could pick 5 senior students to be his assistants. John Leoning was one of those students. Leoning only stayed at the CHA-3 school for two months before coming back to Palama.
As to early (50-60s) Kajukenbo techniques, there were originally 8 Palama Sets (Pinions), and most of the other techniques, "punch counters", "grab arts", "knife counters", "club counters", etc. were in place.
Important thing to remember, many of the early Kajukenbo teachers were not black belts when they started their schools. They primarily came to the mainland to find employment. (But like when Gracie Jiujutsu came here in the 90's, people were hungry for the knowledge, so color belts started teaching.)
John Leoning was not yet a black belt when he first started teaching in California. Unlike now days where everyone has a video camera, people on the mainland in the 50-60's could not keep up with the developments occuring in Hawaii. So they supplemented their training with what was availiable in their areas.
As to the techniques that John Leoning and Sonny Gascon taught, they are somewhat differant. (My first Kajukenbo instructor was from the Leoning lineage, and I know some of Leoning's first black belts, so I've seen their techniques.) I've never seen Karazempo techniques, so I can't say whether there are slightly or vastly differant then Leoning's.
The best example of the "Original Method" is in the 2 video series produced by GM Gary Forbach. The "Panther Productions" series,and the "World Kajukenbo Organization" series. All the taping of the WKO series were personally supervised by Sijo Emperado to make sure they were "original teachings".

Is it possible to list the curriculum from back then? To get a time line going to what we have today?
I'm not sure about all the techniques from the 50s-60's. But by the end of the 60s there were: 14 Palama Sets, 21 Punch Counters, 15 Grab Arts, 13 Club Counters, 15 Knife Counters, 26 Alphabets, 8 Two Man Counters, 6 Three Man Counters, 1 Four Man Counter.

BallistikMike

11-19-2004, 06:08 PM

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?

Thank you for the information :)

John Bishop

11-19-2004, 06:41 PM

Where do I fond these video series for sale? I can not find the original Panther sets?

Thank you for the information :)
Panther Production was bought by Century Martial Arts Supply a few years ago. The bulk of their 600+ titles were put into archives. From what I was told, they can be purchesed in lots of 20 from Century. Or, you can find a few at differant suppliers that may still have them in stock. They are also sold on Ebay occassionally.
We are not marketing the WKO tapes commercially at this time. But if you are interested in them, email me for more information.

GAB

11-28-2004, 08:55 PM

John Bishop

11-28-2004, 09:04 PM

Hi,

With all due respect, not wanting to stir but only to clairfy.
I believe Sifu John Leoning was a Black belt when he came to the mainland, I believe he was a black belt before he was with Sijo Emperado.
I have read numerous accounts about lineage, the most recent was from a school on the East coast.

Maybe Matt could add something to this?

I have been under the impression when Sifu John stepped onto the Mainland he was the Senior black belt here. I believe he was a Black belt under Master Chow,(prior to EP) and there is nothing I have found to change my mind.

I believe that was one of the reasons Sijo Sonny Gascon changed his whole agenda and the reason Sifu John did not.

Regards, Gary
My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.

GAB

11-28-2004, 09:20 PM

My sources of information on John Leoning and his early years are:
Adriano Emperado, Ed Parker, Alan Reyes, John Leoning Jr., Bill Ryusaki, Dan Guzman, Carlos Bunda, and Doug Bunda. All men who were either his instructor, students, son, or contemporaries.

GAB: Please feel free to list your sources.
John Bishop,

I don't have the sources, I have what I said in my post.

If what you say is correct then so be it.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-03-2004, 01:55 AM

John Bishop

12-03-2004, 05:24 AM

Gary (GAB):

You claim to have been one of John Leonings white belts back in the 60's, like that gives you some type of expertise in Kenpo history.
I personally know some of John Leonings students who were with him in 1958, and onward. I know his son John Leoning Jr.
So before I start to believe you were even around his school, I'll ask you some simple questions about it.

1. Who was the actor who funded John's first school in Hollywood? In fact the school carried his name, as did the school patch.

2. Who were John's black belts from 1959 to 1963?

3. Which black belt broke away from him in 1962, and took several of the students with him?

Pretty simple questions for someone who was supposedly there.

The Kai

12-03-2004, 01:56 PM

Wow

An actor that funded the school, how cool! I wonder if he ever stopped by, Man that would make for some cool stories. Put his name on the patch? Was'nt that a little awkward?

Did that Black belt who left ever go anywhere?

I'm sure there are some stories, good and bad,I can't wait to hear them -Luv the history
Thanks
Todd

kelly keltner

12-03-2004, 04:01 PM

I find these to be good trivial pursute(sp) type questions, but if gary was there for a short period of time before going into the LAPD or marine corps then he may not have the answers to those questions nor would I find it reasonable for him to have to. I however do have a fascination with the timeline that he put together. To which I can only come up with one solution. We need the dates that Sifu Leonning(sp) and Mr. Gascon were promoted. John or Joe or anybody could come up with that info it would be appreciated. Please lets stop with the before I believe you were there stuff and try to steer back on to a meaningful discourse. Although I must admit I'd like to know the answers to those questions myself.

kelly

GAB

12-03-2004, 04:45 PM

Hi John,

I will say this, then please, answer the age question.

We have gotten on the wrong side, because I disagree with a few of the things that have been said, about good Martial Art Practioners that I personally know and some I don't like, but, apparently my opinions get me bounced and others can have theirs and still remain...Respectfully submitted.

I also trained with Robert Koga, (your friend) I was his favorite demo guy (yes John I had an attitude).
Gary Payne and others that were in the academy, and at Foothill station when I worked out in the weight room and the mats we had set up, all knew this.

John, I have a great reputation, I will send you references if you want to start this...Just call up Metro desk and ask for Sgt P. W. He is about the oldest living or longest on the Job right now, he was my Sgt in Foothill and Metro. I just talked to him about 2 months ago. He will remember me...LOL

I will add this, when I was in the Academy, I was the only man to receive a
commendation. (I saved an over weight Detective who if I had not been there would have been toast, but then that is why I was there.) Foothill Division 1967 while on Christmas leave from the academy and working in the streets for the first time

Yes, John I was one of Sifu John Leoning's white belts. :whip:

If I had not had the prior training, USMC and the fighting capabilities I have always had, I would have been in awe when I went there.
But it was the other way around and the Blue or Green I can't remember.
He was a small man, I told him, I am here to learn, and hone up, but I could take him out, he agreed. We had mutual respect. (I was getting Private lessons).

As far as those specific questions go I could try to guess. I was a white belt and was not in the know at the time.

I will ask, if he had black belts in 1959, who promoted them?

I went into the USMC 1959 and got out in 1963, got back to the North Hollywood area just prior to 65. Was a Sifu John Leoning student prior to my entry into Police work. I did see Dennis Weaver in the dojo.
I was being trained by lesser belts, my main memory was the Kung Fu influence and how often he was training in that. I do not believe he ever trained me personally. But I did get to talk to him (or I should say listen while others were talking).

When I was there I was under the impression a lot of what we were doing was Okinawan and Shotokan. He had a special class for Kung Fu, (which I also took).
He actually called (Kajukenbo) Hawaiian Karate street fighting, most of the time.
Must be one of the reasons Bill Ryusaki took the name when he left plus he does not even show John as his true instructor, is that honest?

How about I guess? James Coburn???Robert Conrad???Dennis Weaver??

Sonny Gascon, Bill Ryusaki, Dave Kamalani, Julio Blacquera, Walter Godin.

I don't personally remember this. I am just playing at it. Because you want to go there rather then answer my thoughts. Or deal with the apparent flaw that I have observed.:asian:

I believe in the 9 Basic ways of Kenpo John, the first is "Do not think dishonestly". I know you probably know this, but it is in "A book of 5 Rings" I personally like Sphere over Ring. But what do I know?

We were not talking about me or you or any one on this board.

I am just showing you a time line John. When things don't match up in an investigation you have to question it, right?

Since you have personally called me out, so be it.

Please don't feel insecure about me. I am not claiming to be a 8th, 9th or 10th Dan or even a Black belt ( except on MT).

I have had many offers to go there but I have not nor will I. Besides John I have nothing to gain by it, I am who I am. No Belt or lack of will change that.

I am 63 this month John, every one knows me around this area. Call my friend and Sensei Pat Kelly or a new Sensei I just started to go to also, Tim Evans. They are in the Elk Grove phone book.

I have nothing to prove John, I have been there and done that, end of this comment for now. Could we get back to the time line?? Thank you.

Regards, Gary

John Bishop

12-03-2004, 05:17 PM

Answer#1

Leoning's school in No. Hollywood, Ca. was funded by the Hawaiian actor Poncy Ponce. Pictured is Poncy Ponce, and the actress Connie Stevens.
Poncy Ponce, Connie Stevens, and Robert Conrad starred in the 50's-60's TV detective show "Hawaiian Eye".
Robert Conrad, who was a student of John Leoning, was to use his Kajukenbo skills later in his next T.V. series; "Wild Wild West".
In fact when Conrad (as James West) fought actor Don Stroud, it was the first time two Kajukenbo stylists fought each other in a TV show or movie. Don Stroud had been a student of Sijo Emperado's at the Palama Settlement school.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid148/pc8dfa196680a6a7c32d7e0d104781a76/f609a4da.jpg

Answer#2
John's earliest black belts in California were not until 1962-63.
Carlos Bunda and Bill Ryusaki were the first ones.

Answer #3

Bill Ryusaki broke away around 62-63 and took several of the students with him. His most famous student is Benny "the Jet" Urquidez. And yes he claims John Leoning as his Kajukenbo/Kenpo teacher.

John Bishop

12-04-2004, 05:09 AM

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, Gary
What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.

Karazenpo

12-04-2004, 12:58 PM

Personally, I gave up a long time ago of looking for exact dates in the rankings of the old seniors and for that matter, dates for anything back then. I found two dates of when Funakoshi introduced karate to Japan, two dates on when Mitose came to Hawaii and 3 ages when he went to Japan to study-3, 4 and 5. Two dates when Sifu Leoning brought Kajukenbo to the mainland (1957, 1958). Charles Fisher has Sifu Leoning listed as the highest ranking Kajukenbo black belt on the mainland in 1960-8th dan, check out his website. We finally get a date on Chow's black belt years ago only to find out it was not signed by Mitose which we were led to believe for so many years but by Professor Thomas Young of which I've heard several different reasons why that was done. Four dates listed for New England's first kenpo school- 1960, 1961, 1962 and 1963. At least two dates listed for the founding of Gm. Fred Villari's organization-1968, 1971. Three dates recorded for Boddhidharma hooking up at the Shaolin Temple according to various sources. Several dates of when Kajukenbo added it's various arts from 1947 to the 60's, take your pick, several years of which Mr. Parker started his revisions of the Mitose/Chow Kenpo that span the late 50's to the early 60's and the beat goes on..........

As far as black belts go, I now sincerely believe this black belt thing of legitimate rank and so forth is a product of the newer generations of kenpo practitioners. Let's take a look at the old and start with Funokoshi. Here's an excerpt I used on this forum on another topic:

"Of course, the Butoku-kai continued to sanction head teachers directly. This was not without controversy, however, since Konishi sat on the board that awarded Funakoshi his renshi and Konishi had been Funakoshi's student. Of course, Konishi had inside ties to the Butoku-kai by virtue of birth, something the Okinawan Funakoshi could not have."

So, now we got the 'father of all black belts', the first karate black belt in history and that's how he got it, not to mention a godan renshi ranking! It's really funny because his student, Konishi, mentioned above, only held ranking in a Japanese sword art and back then the 'Kai' only hosted the Japanese jiu jitsu, aikido and sword related arts but has since expanded. Later, the Butoku-kai got the reputation of being a 'paper mill'. There is controversary on when the late Mr. Parker received his shodan from Professor Chow and the number one person who started all this Hawaiian derived kenpo thing, James M. Mitose was never awarded a black belt period. This is not at all meant to knock anyone but to make a point. The point being, back then, black belt was very subjective with very loose requirements. I also believe most back then, if not all, weren't even tested for the rank. Curriculums, as we know, were very limited with an emphasis on drilling the basics, self defense techniques which could be expanded upon by borrowing from the basics and just one form to start the whole thing, Naihanchi. I would venture to say many donned the belt prior to any 'official' promotion by their instructor when they began to publically propagate the art and received the ranking later on down the road when they proved themselves worthy. No one ever complained about it back then or now, so perhaps that was an accepted method of how it was done in that time. This happened all over, including Okinawa which took it a step further with the 'airport promotions'. In those early years in Hawaii and then in kenpo's introduction to the mainland it was like this saying I picked up from KenpoJoe Rebelo, "The one eyed man is King in the land of the blind." If they weren't black belts in kenpo with only three karate schools in all of southern California, two of which were kenpo, then who were?, lol. As the 70's approached in my area (New England) there was all this talk about self promotion and legitimate rank because of Fred Villari going from a nidan under Nick Cerio to a 10th in record time, surpassing, not only his instructor but his instructor's instructor. The only problem was some of the most vehement Villari critics also did their own rank thing, only it was anywhere from three to six thousand miles away. Fred Villari's problem was that he sh_t in his own backyard.......trained in Rhode Island, lived and worked in Massachusetts and set up his first schools in New England. So, what I try to do in my research is to just show an accurate lineage of our systems, which at times, can also be difficult but it gives an idea of who and where we came from and what went into our art.
__________________

GAB

12-04-2004, 01:25 PM

Hi Joe,

Good post, thanks.

The part about the "one eyed man in the land of the blind" is right on.

GM Estalilla in Kabaroan, use's that also, for all the various arts that came out of the FMA. Lot more Islands then Hawaii and as much controversy x 50, I have found.

No matter it is still interesting...I still like the time line.

I believe it says more then any other way I could have put it, I am sick of the big stir and getting bounced.

:idunno: Guess I am a slow learner.
Like a bookie I knew when I told him that.
He said, its what I have been doing my whole life, besides it dos'nt hurt anyone. I have said it before and I will say it here, I have been accused of ant hill kicking (my mother).

Joe Friday was the man. Just looking for the facts.

I have had my toes stepped on more then once in the dojo does not stop me from going barefoot.

I see the new breed likes a footcover (especially in the winter) Hanshi won't let you go there, so it must be right.%-}

Regards, Gary

James Kovacich

12-04-2004, 02:29 PM

I think Joe touched on the "reality" of just about all black belt lineage. Even the "best" have "skeletins." In my early years I was Kajukenbo and thats why I "peep" in here. I trained in Karate, Judo / Jujutsu and Kobudo under my brother-in-law and we would have long talks.

But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was abastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be.

The reality was that his instructor the late Tarow Hayashi (RIP)
http://www.hayashismartialarts.com/free_form_combat.htm
was the founder of a of couple of systems. Bujutsu Taiho in the around 1960 and Kumiuchi in the 1970's were his creations.

So one mans "truth" is can be another mans B.S.

Karazenpo

12-04-2004, 03:07 PM

akja stated: "But he would hurt me (and he knew it). He quite often told me that Kajukenbo was a bastard art. That was 1 of many of our problems to be."

Yes, Jim, we used to hear the same thing, especially form Shotokan stylists, that their art is pure. What a bunch of b.s. being that Shotokan is a blending of Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu and then altered to fit the perspective of the Japanese people......... sounds like a 'bastard art' to me!, lol.

kelly keltner

12-06-2004, 01:18 AM

So the answer to my last post is no

kelly

BallistikMike

12-06-2004, 01:01 PM

Hello all,

Once again a great thread with great information in it. I didnt mean for any conflict to happen on when and who received a black belt where and when...lol. Very good info though.

What I wanted to do was see was the original founders of Kajukenbo's curriculum and where it went from there. I am in the process of cross referencing all the basic techniques from the various Kajukenbo videos on the market, the various Shaolin Kempo videos on the market, the written word here on the forum and in private emails, web pages and anything else I can get my grubby hands on for information purpose only.

I would like to see the root of what everyone out there is teaching and from the common elements of ALL you can get a pretty good idea of what the core is.

I have a Kajukenbo guy about 45 minutes from me, but he claims to teach more towards the tournament and competition side. So I am not sure how the techniques have been altered to fit the tournament scene now.

I would like to say this though. It is making it a bit difficult because so many people want to put egos in the mix and change and rename things that are just basic techniques. Forms are changed, recreated or thrown out. Why?

I say its all marketing. It is good for business. Now I may get slammed here and thats fine, but darn if it doesnt tick me off to see so many people "create" systems that are exactly the same and rename or number every darn technique. If you train for years and become good at your art, good enough to teach it then by all means teach what you know, but blast stop the lies. Thats directed to the general MA's not anyone specific...NOT ANYONE SPECIFIC. I said it twice. lol.

Im thinking this summer to take a trip with the family to the east coast and stop in on some of you "old timers" to show what I have found and get some important info. Then the following summer go to the west coast and do the same. Those that will share that is :) Then throw the whole mess on the internet and have it all be blasted LOL.

Anyway you people here make this forum a daily stop for me so thankyou again.

Mike

GAB

12-06-2004, 02:35 PM

Hi All,

The word is illegitimate, many words that should be striken from our language (B) word.

The thing is, it is whose OX is getting gored. After 10-20 years it is no longer that considering it is still around. The thing that comes to mind is what drives these persons away from the original art.

Listen and observe. Money, Capitalism, that is the way the Government wants it, Small Business is the gas that runs the country. Free Enterprise, the new mouse trap. Look what the Government had to do to ATT just to name one, now we are going backwards, Walmart comes to mind...

Welcome to the freeworld be happy you are here. Can you imagine what would have happened to Hawaii if it had gone the other way (WW11).

Tomorrow is December the 7th. Don't forget that date, for all you who are to young to even realize what was going on, one fell swoop and thousands were history and that was just the start. Our country had to tighten its belt to get through that one...

Some went to war others did not (people) same o same o...History is being rewritten by the ones that are still around.

We need more Historians. The word Houlie sp? (still) comes to mind. Funny what you remember.

HASP has a special meaning to me, Hawaii circa 1960.

USMC. Semper FI.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-06-2004, 04:48 PM

???? What the hell???

monkey-a-go-go

12-06-2004, 10:17 PM

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.

Karazenpo

12-07-2004, 12:32 AM

DavidCC

12-07-2004, 12:18 PM

I tried contacting Century MA about the Panther videos. They do offer one Kajukenbo self defense video (#3) on their web site. So far no response. I will pay a "copying fee" and shipping if anyone can provide me with kajukenbo and karazenpo go shinjutsu videos. or can ftp mpg captures, for you fellow geeks out there...

I have shaolin Kempo videos I will trade for same.

The Kai

12-07-2004, 01:18 PM

Haoulie (pron. Howlie) - Nobody listens to Turtle. Da Hui, black shorts, V-land.

I'm workin' on my riddle & koan GAB.

Ballistic Mike- can't wait to see where your project ends up.

Have fun all.
Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
Todd

GAB

12-07-2004, 01:53 PM

Again you have to wonder if ypu got something of value or interest to say. Come out and say it!!! The Riddle and Koan nonsense has got to go, imformation is information, why do you mix in your stupid riddles and koans (which i am not sure that they would qualify as anything as intelligent as a koan) are you trying to hid Disinformation, innuendos and assumputions. Please do not reply with the nonsense baby talk please!
ToddKai

When you say baby talk is that because you don't or can't understand. Because you are just being angry at me for the way it has been forever in the martial arts world. Give you one piece of puzzle then you have to assemble the rest...

That way everyone gets to come to their own conclusion. The experience or the intellect (knowledge) has to be there to deceipher through the thick or thin of it.

Explain which part of my thread you have a problem with, is it the fact that I stray from side to side or I am not coming at you in a linear sense or you don't like circle attitude. (clue all three are the same).

I understand honest. I sometimes get into the typing thing and don't really pay attention until it is up and running then I let it hang to get feedback.

I will be interested what you have to say on the red ding you give me. LOL...

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-07-2004, 02:41 PM

First off you make three assumptions

1.) that you are more intelligent then me
2.) that you are enlightened
3.) That you are in the role of a teacher

How the Martial arts have been taught in the past? How, would you know.
I could spend 5 minutes trying to "decipher" your foolishness, unfortanatly it would waste my 5 minutes.
Again people with the information post thier information, state their case clearly. You Gibber and F**** Gabber on. Who appointed you mystic all seeing?
Again Please No baby talk
I am sorry if i hurt your feelings, but man _actually I'll tell you what I'll start a Thread
"all Wise Father, self appointed zen master and circular historian, GAB will now answer all "
I should shorten it to "At the Zen Feet of GAB"?

To anyone else who is on this side of lucid, I am sorry for flying off
Todd

GAB

12-07-2004, 09:57 PM

Hi Kai,

That is what or how you interpret it not me, to think like that is totally wrong...

I am not any of that, now I will ask you do I answer back angry? NO.

I am not angry, you are... Reread my post Todd..

You are really off base, but then maybe I am also, but with the both of us being at the opposite end of spectrum I can see the problem.

I do appreciate your thinking that I should be placed in such honor though.
I would not to be able to fill those shoes so I will have to pass.

Take care,

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-07-2004, 10:56 PM

What specifically are you asking? Are you saying that just because John Leoning was 31 years old, he had to have been a black belt in 1958?
Not everyone is raised in a temple and taught martial arts at the age of 5. Some people don't get their black belts until their 30's, 40's, or even 50's.

In 1958 there are only 3 karate schools in all of So. California. Tsutomu Oshima's Shotokan school (1955), Ed Parker's Kenpo school (1956), and John Leoning Kajukenbo school (1958).

If you give us some specific questions, maybe some of us can give you some specific answers.
John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-08-2004, 11:03 AM

Gary

I not angry actually, just at the end of my rope with the koan/riddle nonsense.

Honestly, start a seperate thread (suggested name Zen riddles with Gary)take your foolishness there-Please
Todd
P.S. I don't really know what a ding is....

The Kai

12-08-2004, 11:10 AM

John,
I was just trying to show a time line. If you are in America and have been in the school system until you are 18. Most people would ask or think that you have High school level knowledge. Not college.

If you grew up in an area and play with all the people who are your same age and do the same thing (Martial Arts) and they are Black Belts you would think maybe they would all be close in the arts.

So when I saw this I just felt like putting it forth. The Time Line.

Regards, Gary
Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd

GAB

12-08-2004, 12:49 PM

Gary
Cut to the chase, which of the Kenpo Seniors do You believe did'nt earn thier rank? Since that seems to be your motive. Also could you give us your short list of Kenpo people that you think eaned thier rank.
Asking questions that you only accept your answers to=Childish riddles
Todd
Todd,

It is a funny thing regarding rank. The person I am talking about is John Leoning.

The others all claim rank at a very young age. John was around all of them at the same time and age yet when he comes to America, at 31 years old he has no rank?

I was under the impression he was very good and very well ranked. He falls out with Kajukenbo and now he has no rank? Sure would like to here from Sonny Gascon.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-08-2004, 01:18 PM

Karazenpo

12-08-2004, 03:39 PM

*Biography from Soke Charles Fisher.

BIOGRAPHY OF JOHN C. LEONING
JOHN C. LEONING WAS BORN IN HAWAII ON MAY 3, 1927 AND THE HOLDER OF THE 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT IN THE KAJUKENBO SYSTEM AND OPERATED THE NORTH AMERICAN KUNG-FU AND KARATE SCHOOL IN NORTH HOLLYWOOD, CALIFORNIA FOR MANY YEARS.
HIS TEACHER WAS SIJO (FOUNDER) ADRIANO EMPERADO ON THE BIG ISLAND OF HAWAII. THIS WAS A ROUGH STYLE WITH ROUGH TEACHING METHODS, DESIGNED TO CREATE FIGHTERS IN ANY ENVIRONMENT OR SITUATION. THAT CLASS IN HAWAII HAD MANY FUTURE GREAT TEACHERS---THESE INCLUDED MR. ED PARKER THE CREATOR OF KENPO KARATE, SIFU RICHARD BUSTILLO OF THE IMB ACADEMY OF TORRANCE, CALIFORNIA AND PROFESSOR "LUCKY" E. LUCIANO, A NOW RED SATIN/SILVER BELT--9TH DEGREE---SIFU OF THE SOUTHERN CALIFORNIA BRANCH B.C. MEXICO KAJUKENBO ASSOCIATION.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS AN EIGHT DEGREE RED AND WHITE STRIPE BELT (THE HIGHEST RANKING BLACK BELT IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN 1960) WITH TRAINING IN CHOY LI FAT KUNG-FU FROM SIFU SHARE K, LEW.
SIFU JOHN C. LEONING WAS CHARLES B. FISHER, YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT TWENTIETH TEACHER.

CARLO BUNDA--A BLACK BELT IN KAJUKENBO WHO TRAINED UNDER JOHN C. LEONING, HACHIDAN --8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WON THE FIRST INTERNATIONAL KARATE CHAMPIONSHIP AT LONG BEACH, CALIFORNIA HOSTED BY ED PARKER, SHICHIDAN--7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT.

SIFU LEONING USED TO SAY "TAKE IT EASY" SIFU LEONING USED TO CHANGE THE SETS ALL THE TIME, SO IF YOU WERE GOING ANY LENGTH OF TIME AND WHEN YOU RETURNED TO CLASS, YOU HAD TO LEARN THE SETS ALL OVER AGAIN. SIFU LEONING NEVER DID THAT WITH THE BASICS THOUGH.

THE REASON I WAS PROMOTED TO YODAN--4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT WAS SIFU LEONING KNEW MY EAST COAST TEACHER--DANIEL K. PAI, SHICHIDAN --7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT ALSO FROM HAWAII AND I ALSO KNEW ALL THE BASICS AND THE SETS.

SIFU LEONING WAS IN FILMS ABOUT FOUR YEARS WHEN HE WON A ROLE IN THE "KUNG-FU" T.V. SERIES ON STRENGTH OF HIS TALENTS IN THE MARTIAL ARTS. AMONG HIS FILMS WERE "PIPE DREAMS" AND HIS FINAL FILM WAS "KENTUCKY FRIED MOVIE".

SIFU LEONING WORKED FOR A JANITOR SERVICE AFTER THE KAJUKENBO CLASS WAS OVER. SIFU LEONING WAS A CATHOLIC. I WAS AT THE MASS (NO VIEWING BECAUSE THE CASKET WAS CLOSED) THE DAY HE WAS BURIED AND AT THE FUNERAL THE KAJUKENBO GROUP PERFORMED NAIHANCHI ONE "THE DANCE OF DEATH". HIS WIFE AND SON WERE THERE ALSO.

SIFU LEONING DIED AT THE AGE OF 50 ON WEDNESDAY MARCH 23, 1977 OF A HEART ATTACK AND IS BURIED AT FOREST LAWN IN THE HOLLYWOOD HILLS, CALIFORNIA.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Bishop

12-08-2004, 04:02 PM

If you go back John Bishop gives an account and a rough timeline with John Leonning. Do you want to know if thier was a falling out-i.e. Leoning got his rank "pulled" for some infraction. Or do you think he should have been ranked higher than he was?

ToddOK GAB, I'll give you the time line I was given. In 1988 I was doing some historical research for my first Kajukenbo instructor (whose lineage was from the Leoning family of Kajukenbo). This was to make a family tree, and write a black belt hand book for our future upcoming black belts.
I talked to John Leoning's first black belt, Carlos Bunda. He told me that Leoning came to the mainland in 1958. I talked to Ed Parker. He verified the date of 1958. He also told me that Leoning was a "brown belt" when he first came here. He said he know's this because he called Sijo Emperado to "check him out", (competition you know) when Leoning opened his school. And Sijo told him that Leoning was a "brown belt". Ed said that Leoning later got his "black belt". I never asked how much "later". It really didn't matter to me at the time.
Bill Ryusaki also confirmed this information.
I then talked to Alan Reyes, who is a Kajukenbo historian. He grew up in Kajukenbo and his father Aleju Reyes was Sijo Emperado "scribe". In other words he recorded for Emperado all the "techniques", "black belt promotions", and other matters important to the Kajukenbo organization.
Alan told me that Leoning, like most of the other early Kajukenbo instructors on the mainland, was "not a black belt when he first arrived". He, like most of the others came here looking for jobs. When the opportunity arose to teach,they did. Like I said before, at the time he opened, there are only 2 karate schools in all of So. Calif.
It was not at all uncommon for "color belts" to teach in the 50's and 60's. Perfect example is Gracie Jujitsu in the 90's. Outside of the Gracie family, there was only 1 or 2 Gracie black belts in America. I personally know of 5 Gracie/Brazilian jujitsu schools in So. Calif. that were owned and operated by "color belts", in the 90's.
But, back to Leoning, since 1988 I've talked to many people about John, including his son. His history is discussed quite often in Kajukenbo circles, since he was the first Kajukenbo instructor to teach on the mainland. So, I have little reason to doubt the information I have. I'm sure he was a black belt by the time you encountered him in 1965. But the highest rank he ever obtained from in "Kajukenbo" from Sijo Emperado, was 5th degree.
Anyway, you can believe me or not. It dosen't matter to us in Kajukenbo what you choose to believe.

kelly keltner

12-08-2004, 06:43 PM

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.

kelly

John Bishop

12-08-2004, 07:48 PM

So the answer to my post was yes. Could I please have a green rep point to relplace the red one I got for asking if the answer was no.

kellyWow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand. And when asked to clarify, he thows out statements about being in the Marine Corp or LAPD like that has anything to do with the topic. Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

Old Fat Kenpoka

12-08-2004, 09:26 PM

Wow Kelly,
GAB thows out random statements that have nothing to do with the subject at hand....Then throws out some riddles that have nothing to do with the topic, and most of us here just shake out heads, and wonder what he's talking about.
But you seem to understand exactly the hidden questions in these random statements and riddles.
You have a true gift. In the future would you please translate any other ramblings GAB has. It would really save us a lot of time here.

p.s. You didn't get any Red rep points from me.

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.

GAB

12-08-2004, 09:58 PM

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.OFK, Yea Kelly has known me for more then a decade so he probably does know my way of rambling.

Joe, Thanks for the information off of Charles Fisher's site. I have had numerous contacts with the man.

John I have answered many of your questions and you have ignored many that I have asked.
I don't harp on them and I certainly am not worried about the various people shaking their head, are you in the same room while this is happening?

Thanks for the information about your contact with Edmund Parker and Bill Ryusaki, I would like to talk to John Leoning Jr. just because, no reason to try and clairify.

Several reasons I wrote and informed you of my past is because of your slights that you write at times, so I tell you so you will know these things.

Different strokes for different folks, you have to understand where I am coming from if you are an historian and you are truly trying to discover the truth and you find some discrepency like the age factor.

Lets look at that for one more time.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-08-2004, 10:08 PM

Hi all,

I was reading another thread and they are talking about the age, or the time in grade of the GM's etc. How many are now 8th, 9th, 10th Dans (head of system) and are not that old in age or time in grade.

Lets skip back to Hawaii, time zone 40s and 50s.

Pretty much a group of young men. Some were older but not out of their 30s by any means.

The age of the original 5 I don't think added up to 110 years for the founders of Kajukenbo. Probably be hard pressed to find any one in their 30s.

Lets take some prominent players.

William Chow born 1914, James Mitose born 1916, Adriano Emperado born 1926, John Leoning born 1927, Edmund Parker born 1931, Victor Gascon born 1933, Walter Godin born 1937...

Lets go to the 40s, James Mitose Retires (30 years old!!) from teaching and leaves the school to Thomas Young 1946/47.

William Chow is 32 years old...

Kajukenbo is being formulated by men in there very young 20s. Edmund Parker is only 16, (same age as Joe Emperado +/- 1 year or so) Victor Gascon is 14 tops and Walter Godin is 10 years.

John Leoning is 20 years, depends on the month...

Lets go the 58 when John Leoning comes to North Hollywood/Burbank area, he is 31 years old, Edmund Parker is about 27, Victor Gascon is 25 and Walter Godin is 21. Joe Emperado is, sadly dead.

Ok now we are on the mainland and it is 1960 and the three messengers come bearing gifts, oops wrong story. And the story teller has been in the Marine Corps for one (1) year I am 18.

I will stop here and ask others if they want to put in some times and dates and then I will get back to you about Sifu John Leoning, not being a Black Belt at 31 years of age. That is how old he was when he came here.

Regards, GaryKai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary

BallistikMike

12-08-2004, 10:55 PM

HASP - Hawaiian Armed Services Police

Googled police and HASP and 1960 and came up with that.

BallistikMike

12-08-2004, 11:15 PM

Kai this is for You I wrote this.

John isn't it an interesting time line???

I find it truly informative.

Lets look at all the explosion that occured.

After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage.

I think that is in itself very informative.

Shake your head all you want, it won't go away. Mitose is the reason for all this, criminal or not. Like the rest are angels...

HASP circa 1960...Gary in the Marine Corps in Hawaii...I have given you some clues about my background for a reason. We will be getting to my LAPD career...

We are getting there. Any one want to tell us what the letters HASP stand for?

Regards, Gary
To claim that the developers are removing the only real "master" from their lineage is a bit harsh.

People take things in different directions when they get a feel for what they want and where they are going. The men that developed Kajukenbo took what they learned and tested it on themselves and the streets of a very brutal Hawaii.

I have seen no proof of anything saying that J. Mitose was a master of anything. I have seen more proof that he was a student of a student of a student JUST LIKE US ALL!

If people are so worried about lineage and black belts and "Master" certificates go buy some of them off the web. What most of us are interested in are people here on the forums who have traded blood and sweet with these "old" timers and the great stories and lessons they have learned.

I would also like to say something about the people throwing the bombs around about being Police, ExPolice, Ex Marines, Ex Soldiers, Bouncers ... etc.

That proves absolutely nothing of what self-defense is. The private citizen is the true practitioner of self-defense.

1 - we dont have weapons (M4,M1A Tanks) or satallite to help us on the battlefield
2 - we dont have radios and the hugest gang on the streets "local LEO's" that come at our call and fireams/batons where ever we go.
3 - we dont have back up of other bouncers, friendly patrons and LEO's that show up

As a citizen we are left to are own merits to survive, essentially we are the true "solo" warrior. Granted we arent willingly going into sistuations every waking hour like the above mentioned hero's.

What is important is that I chose who is a good teacher based on ability, knowledge, sharing the knowledge and experience.

So I have my own riddle about the Kosho Ryu guys "Why is Mr. Jucknik so good at fighting, why does he hit hard. It isnt because of sitting in a cell with a prisoner, it is because of experience. Where did that experience come from?

The Kai

12-09-2004, 10:46 AM

GAB

12-09-2004, 12:49 PM

When we llok at the explosion after Mitose "retired"; lets not forget the sinificant contributions of William Chow

GAB
So you are saying that no one in your opinion deserves the rank or respect they have recieved? Whom in your book is worthy?
Todd
Todd, Do not say that, I have stated that I have great respect for them all.

It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.

I have stated that if Mitose is the spark. Willam Chow is the log that kept the fires burning. You notice he is the oldest of the group?
I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.

Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...

Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.

I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-09-2004, 01:31 PM

[
It is the obverse of the coin that we are talking about.Did you mean inverse of the coin, or to be clear or lucid the opposite side of the coin? How is it the opposite of what we are talking about??

I like and have great respect for Kajukenbo, but I don't care for all the politics and I am sure most will agree it is a sad part of the Martial arts.?? Were in kajukenbo long enough to see the politics??

Hear this, if you believe William Chow are you going to believe Parker?
Listen and you will learn...I hear ya, I just don't know what the hell you are trying to say, believe Parker/Chow about what?

Kai you have stated you have been to Hanshi's Gathering, Why don't you take a stab at answering Ballistikmike, regarding his (Hanshi) capabilities.
Actually i thought the question was directed towards you, but as i have stated before i think hanshi is one hell of a teacher, and a fantastic martial artist
I will say this Regarding Hanshi, he eats, breaths and most of his waking moments are consumed by MA and not just one style. He watchs something at night prior to hitting the sack and then he meditates on it and falls asleep with it on his mind when he wakes he usually is still on the same movements.

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn. So now you are studing Kosho yourself??

P.S. I know you don't like it whwn your posts are cut up, but the thought process was so dijointed I need to keep it clear.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.So there are 2 people on your list of worthy martial artists
1.) Sifu Leonnning< I think so at least
2.) Hansi Juchnik
Todd

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-09-2004, 07:19 PM

Hi Todd,

We are not able to relate, I am going to let this go for now and catch it later.

For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe.
Hopefully some others have some input. Joe have you anything you can run by Sijo Sonny Gascon, maybe he can add a few things. Maybe you had better not, I don't want your relations with John Bishop to go south.

I have only had differences of opinion regarding the actual belt rankings I say John was well ranked, John Bishop said not. I said Ed Parker was not as high as he professed and others say he was.

I feel they are all good Martial Artists, we just arn't on the same page regarding rank.

Obverse is correct, reverse is what you are talking about. It was a play on words, I am saying he was higher then they are saying, please read it again.

Do I have to be running for President to follow what is happening in the politicial arena. Just look at the different Mon's that are in Kajukenbo.

I saw Hanshi today and talked, do you know what all Hanshi teach's???

Explain to me what Kosho is? How many tapes has Hanshi made? How many DVD's?
How many are in the various Martial arts? Are they all Kosho?

I do FMA at the present. How many different styles do I do in FMA?
How many are there? How many systems are out there?

I have told you many times I cross train...

Regards, Gary

Karazenpo

12-09-2004, 07:53 PM

Remember guys, rank is so subjective that it's really not worth pursuing the who was a black belt and when and what degree, is this legit is that legit, what may be accepted as gold in one organization could be coal in another. Remember Mr. Parker saying: "What degree of death are you after you're dead?" Mitose started this whole kenpo/kempo thing and he had no rank. Look how and where and who was on the committee who awarded Funakoshi his renshi and technically, he's the 'father of the black belt ranking system' for karate and his 5th dan is still controversial and talked about today. Chow self promoted himself to 15th degree black belt with the title of 'Master of the Universe', no one gave him any crap over it. As long as your rank is accepted in your school, schools or organization that's all that should matter. Ed Parker was/is the head and founder of EPAK and the Ed Parker studios, there is no one higher than he in his organization, so whether he was promoted to 10th or took the 10th, I really don't have a problem with it. Fred Villari is the head and founder of Shaolin Kempo Karate and the Villari Self Defense Centers & Studios, no one is higher than he in his organization, Nick Cerio, George Pesare, Sonny Gascon, John Leoning, Adriano Emperado, Thomas Young, Ralph Castro, Al Tracy, Thomas Barros Mitose, Bruce Juchnik and the list goes on. It's all relative and subjective. Rank is primarily based on opinions and you know what they say: "Opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one", LOL. Respectfully, Professor Joe

kelly keltner

12-09-2004, 08:11 PM

yeh gotta agree with you about opinions.

kelly

kelly keltner

12-09-2004, 09:10 PM

me knowest who it was who gave me da red

kelly

BallistikMike

12-09-2004, 09:49 PM

...

He tells us all to do that if we really want to learn, at the dojo I work out at, it is not uncommon for students to video their drill and watch it later at their leisure, great way to learn.
He is totally immersed into the arts and has been that way most of his adult life.

Regards, Gary
I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month :) lol

::: going back to lurking and learning :::

GAB

12-10-2004, 02:27 AM

Hi Balistikmike,

Hanshi will even say he just didn't know any better, are you saying he did not do that or he did do that.

Regarding the numerous systems you read about the fighters and the studio guys.

Motobu was a fighter, Chow was one, looking for trouble or starting it just to test themselves against someone else.

When I was in the service it was like that, all the time, every different port. You are getting into it with other servicemen, my ship is better then yours, or recon is tougher then the sub's etc. Young and dumb.

Gunny Highway was taken from a real person, (movie heartbreak ridge) I am as sure of that as I am writing this.

Are you saying that when Hanshi changed his way's and started down a different path you were sickened?

Like a bad guy finding religion and becoming born again? I think of another movie, Unforgiven, real people real life stuff.

You are not going to hurt my feelings, so talk, just don't be rude, or call people names. I am sure it will be fine.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-10-2004, 02:47 AM

Hi Balistikmike,

Never forget the Name...Martial...as in war... That is what is so interesting, it is not called sports arts, or neo martial.

War is hell don't go there if you can help it, a movie about a real war hero "To hell and back" or any of the make believe heros, it is about killing and fighting and the tough time they had when they returned to 'civil' ian life.

I think it was Aristotle who said 'it is easy to instill the fighting and killing in man, but it is very hard to remove it from him'...Paraphrased.

I believe that very much, when I was dealing with the guys who came back from the Vietnam conflict on the streets of L. A. it was very bad and sad.

The people they abused most was their so called "loved ones".

You still see it today, one of the reasons they have installed so many laws against domestic violence.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-10-2004, 07:39 PM

Hanshi has 100 of tapes out (I don't know about dvds). 4/5 books. I am familiar with the arts with in the art.

What Hanshi did in the past is the past - I've heard of worse.

kelly keltner

12-10-2004, 08:00 PM

I agree that he did immerse himself into the art he was practicing at the time. So much so that when he was with the Tracy's we would go bar hopping looking for fights to test if the stuff worked. That is from his mouth and written. I started to get into the Kosho Ryu system nearly 10 years ago but when I heard that I nearly vomitted.

Im sorry but there are many ways to gain experience in the real world, going out to bars and picking fights is not one of them!

ah well... I will move on because I am about to tick off some very respected people here on the boards and I respect them for the years of study they put in and I would like to share with this forum a bit more then a single month :) lol

::: going back to lurking and learning :::
There are many who are saddled with the moniker of martial arts master who have tested there skills in one fashion or another. You have to look at it in its context, and realize it for what it is and move on. Yes Hanshi got into a lot of fights in his youth. So did many others. Does this mean that what he teaches is invalid. I would say no in as much if I were to relate what others have supposedly done.
What about these peoples pasts
1. Rudy Turlinden
2. Morihei Ushieba
3.Florio Villabraille
4. Choki Motobu
5. an yes, James Mitose
one of these practioners was supposedly in Manchuria lopping off peoples heads in the early 20th century, but if you talk to the people that participate in his system you'd think he was god.
Another was credited with 12 kills in his native country.
still another is famous for kills with his death stick.
one was jailed for conspiracy to commit murder.
another killed a boxer.
I could go on and list many martial artist who have had their share of indiscretions or a colorful past.
So one guy getting into a few fights and then growing out of it. Then admitting that it was not a part of his life that he was proud of.
That makes you want to vomit?

Put in perspective with history its a minor transgression and nothing in comparision of the old dojo wars and the exploits of people like count Dante.

kelly

The Kai

12-11-2004, 01:46 PM

GAB

12-11-2004, 03:05 PM

Gab

"For example...Chow said one thing about Parkers Belts, Parker said something different. So who are you going to believe"

So now you don't think Ed parker deserved his rank??
Again I am sorry about busting your chops on the Riddle/koan bull***, but I am sure everyone appreciates a little more clarity
ToddHi Todd, I believe he did after he put his many years in, I don't believe he had it in the first place.

I was there in the 60's when all the conflict was going on and I remember the stuff that was happening. I lived in North Hollywood until I was 17 then went into the service came out and continued to live there until I was 27.

It dosen't matter at this date and time about that (belt, grn, brn, blu or blk)...

I only went there because others were bad mouthing Hanshi.. Hanshi earned his rank and then he was tested by Mitose and of all the ones that went to Mitose he was given the keys.

That is the truth...As in the keys to his Kosho, go out and continue as you see fit, based on your knowledge and desire. He told Hanshi there will be people who will be nitpickers don't worry about it etc...

Hanshi did a lot of soul searching and now more then 25 years after he met the man he is still standing tall. And I might add, the Hanshi of the system...

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-12-2004, 04:22 PM

GAB

12-15-2004, 01:56 AM

GAB

So you believe that by tearing down others like Parker, Emperado and various seniors with in the Kenpo community, you will get more respect for Hanshi Juchnik?

Why do you belteve that there cannot be respect across the board? Opinions will very, but opinions are just that.

You believe in Hanshi? Than that is enough.

Ed Parker more than earned a rightfull place at the top (many times over), your nitpicking won't take anything away.

Again just my opinion
Todd

Hi Todd, I think, if you live in a glass house you should not throw stones.

Regarding EPAK there are a lot of people still out on that, but my prior post covered it.

I am not nitpicking, I am stating what Chow said and what Parker said.

So I guess two wrongs don't make it right.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-15-2004, 09:44 AM

Gary
What glass house?? And no riddles please
Todd

The Kai

12-15-2004, 09:51 AM

Gary
Who is undecided as to Parker's contributions to the kenpo community??

As to you were there, you were what a 17 yr old yellow belt, so the seniors came and told a young beginnner "Ya know Ed Parker not really a Black Belt"?

I don't really understand the Glass House comment, unless you are still upset over not being able to hide behind your riddle and koan B.S. Again I apoligize if I hurt your feelings
todd

GAB

12-15-2004, 12:32 PM

Hi Todd,

You are not hurting my feelings, and the slite's keep on coming. No problem Kai I read you like a book.:)

I answer as to what I feel appropriate and what you say is not a factor.

Glass house, is a reference to persons who are living in a glass house should not throw rocks... As if someone is not on a stable surface they should not push the subject, if it is a topic or someone in front of them.

I will give you the the first offense (throwing a punch).. But it has already been thrown numerous times in my mind and you are not going to surprise me...

If you saw the picture "the Last Samurai" (when Tom cruise is fighting, the scene he creates in his own mind) Is supposed to be the no mind concept...

Not how I percieve that concept but it is how the misreprezentation was presented. I am only using that as a reference point on this particular post.

Say What??? You seem to like to answer a question or response with a misquote. Why is that?:idunno:

I feel I am on better ground defending Hanshi's lineage than others who defend various persons in their past lineage or in the present as far as that goes.

When you get the water from the 'crystal clear spring' you don't have to worry about a dirty vessel.:asian: The Lineage is very clear.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-15-2004, 02:11 PM

Gary

First off I think you meant "slight" and not "slite's" keep coming?

If you think I am misquoting I am pasting your quotes. The only alteration is I take out the most incomprehensible, innane and illogical in your posts. sorry if this offends you-but I need to a least try to make sense of what you're saying!

As far as the movie reference or the "throwing the 1st punch reference" I really have no idea what the hell you're talking about!
Actually, if you get water from a Crystal Spring you need to worry about a dirty vessel. It would, in fact contaminate trhe water you store/carry? Even your own analgies are a little twisted!
Todd

John Bishop

12-15-2004, 02:23 PM

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll

kelly keltner

12-15-2004, 03:31 PM

It must be the Kosho-Ryu secret code.
yep sure is

kell

Karazenpo

12-15-2004, 04:37 PM

If I may quote Gary:

"After James Mitose retires, everyone else take off like a roman candle and claiming all sorts of great lineage, and removing the only real Master from there lineage."

I have to most definitely agree on the point of removing Mitose from the lineage. I've always said that I seperated Mitose the man from Mitose the martial artist. He still planted the seed which we call kenpo that was nurtured, cultivated and spread by others into all the fine systems we have today. Now, imho, whether he received his basics from Okinawan Kenpo's Nabura Tanamaha of the Choki Motobu lineage or from his maternal grandfather in Japan or a little bit of both, he still was the catalyst who ignited the flame of this Hawaiian derived kenpo/kempo. Anyone who digs into the history of our kenpo/kempo systems will find that many started their own thing with probably as much knowledge as Mitose, some maybe a little more and some maybe a little less but right in the ballpark and most were not black belts either. So, to me, if you're going to post a lineage in your Hawaiian derived kenpo art and exclude Mitose, then it is inaccurate. Whether someone likes the man or not, whether he had minimal training or not, all doesn't matter, he still triggered this whole kenpo thing! As far as his character goes, forget it. Imho and many others he certainly was no role model but neither were the unscrupulous Japanese Samurai and they were the initial forerunners of our jiu jitsu systems, should we deny them their role in m.a. history also?

The Kai

12-15-2004, 04:44 PM

I don't think Mitose is "removed" from any lineage per se, it is simply a misconception.
Todd

John Bishop

12-15-2004, 05:18 PM

James Kovacich

12-15-2004, 06:32 PM

Karazenpo

12-15-2004, 11:45 PM

Todd and Sigung John, you know I'm with you guys and I agree on 99.9 per cent of what you say but here's my perspective. Todd, it's not misconspection, it's fact, EPAK cuts Mitose out of their lineage and this is in no way slandering the Parker people for I've had this friendly disagreement on lineage with Dr. Ron Chapel whom I have the utmost respect for. John Bishop, I also have the utmost respect for and I'm sure he knows that but Nick Cerio was very close to Kathy and I, it goes without saying the respect we have for him and his accomplishments along with his place in kenpo history, but if I have to be truthful............. John is correct on the lineage issue, again, not taking anything away from Professor Cerio because I've always believed that and in personal conversations, the Professor always stated it was his first kenpo instructor whom he made his black belt under, Gm. S. George Pesare, who gave him his identity. However, on this point, John, in a friendly and respectful disagreement, I have to say, all of the Hawaiian derived kenpo does indeed hold their existance to James Mitose (and you know, John, I'm in no way a supporter of Mitose, the man!). Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later. Don't get me wrong, in time Sijo made his own modifications and revisions, no doubt. Same thing with Parker, from 1954 to around 1961 he essentially taught the same kenpo Chow taught him which was what Mitose taught Chow, with, I grant you, a few modifications here and there but nothing so significant that would constitute it a whole new style and of cource, later, Parker did his own thing. Respectfully submitted, "Joe"

kelly keltner

12-16-2004, 01:35 AM

Lineage is always something that is altered to suit the needs of the story teller. The question is; how far does the alteration go?
You see people "jumping up" here and there, and re-writing their lineage all the time. Most notable, Nick Cerio and Bruce Juchnik.
In reality Nick Cerio was 4 generations down from William Chow. Then he has some training from Chow, and moves himself up 3 generations. Now did he remove all the Kajukenbo and Karazempo techniques from his system, and only teach Chow's techniques after training with Chow? Probably not.
In reality Bruce Juchnik was about 6 generations down from James Mitose. He visits Mitose in prison, and moves himself up about 5 generations.
Now there's nothing wrong with seeking instruction from your seniors, seniors. But your first lineage in the same art can't really be re-written. And to leave out from your bio's the actual people who "brought you up" is disrespectful to say the least.

Now do we in Kajukenbo recognize Mitose as someone in our lineage. Yes we do. But we cannot say that he is the root of our system. We have 5 major systems, and 2 minor systems that were used to create Kajukenbo.
So is Mitose any more important in our lineage then Henry Okizaki, Alfredo Peralta, Jigoro Kano, or any of the others in our lineage? Not at all.

So to claim that "all Hawaiian derived kenpo systems owe thier existance to Mitose" is not entirely true. Much of the Kenpo in Hawaii, and most of it on the east coast comes from Kajukenbo. So it would be much more realistic to say that they owe 15-20 % of their existance to Mitose.Just when I thought I was out they pull me back in.
The statement that Bruce was rewriting lineage as if he was jumping up or ahead of other people. What would you do?
1. He was given the system by Mitose. The documentation has been verified by a well known forensic handwriting analyst and well known and respected witnesses who were around in the late 70's.
2. How do you write a lineage chart for such a situation? This is a serious question.
3. Bruce does not ignore, disavow or deny any of his teachers.
4. Here is a partial list. Mariano Estioko, Dan Babkok(sp), Mike Dean, Remy Presas, Angel Cabales.
5. If you would read his books, or watch his tapes or heaven forbid I'm beatin a dead horse here give him a call you'd know this.
6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.

kelly

John Bishop

12-16-2004, 01:35 AM

Everything we've ever been told about the kenpo in Kajukenbo was that Chow taught essentially the kenpo that Mitose taught him and that Chow's revisions came much later.
Respectfully submitted, "Joe"Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

John Bishop

12-16-2004, 03:00 AM

OK, for Kelly's sake, let me say this.
I don't personally know Mr. Juchnik, and have never seen him demonstrate techniques, other then on video.
But, from what I have been told by people who's opinions I respect, Mr. Juchnik is a excellent martial arts technician, and teacher.
I do not question any of his documents from James Mitose, or his claim to be the leader of his own version of Kosho Ryu.

But I have noticed that in all the bios or articles (that I've seen over the last 20 years)that have been written about or by him, the only mention of his "Kenpo" instructor is Mitose. I'm not saying that one should list every instructor they got a purple belt from, but someone who trained you to black belt level is a important part of your martial arts experience, as is your teachers, teacher.
But he can write whatever auto-biography he want's. It's his-story.

So anyway, back to the discussion on lineages.

kelly keltner

12-16-2004, 11:14 AM

Karazenpo

12-16-2004, 11:59 AM

Agreed on the Kenpo part. But we have 5 founders, 5 styles, that we recognize, who contributed techniques and philosophy to Ka-ju-ken-bo. If it wasn't for the contributions of the other 4 founders, we'd just be another "Hawaiian Kenpo" style, not Kajukenbo.
To give credit to Mitose as the "root" of Kajukenbo and it's sub-systems, is to do a great injustice to the other great martial artists in our lineage, like Henry Okizaki, and Jigoro Kano. I can't speak for Karazempo or Shaolin Kempo, but there is a whole lot of Danzan Ryu jujitsu, Escrima, Western boxing, and Kodokan Judo in Kajukenbo. And it didn't come from Mitose.

How about this Joe. Prof. Joe Holck has his Kajukenbo black belts. And his black belts have theirs. He was a student of Henry Okizaki and Sig Kufferath. He never trained a day with Mitose or Chow. So is Mitose the root of his black belts too?
Lineage has to start somewhere. Do Shotokan blackbelts trace their lineage all the way up the Shorin Ryu and Shorei Ryu lineages? Or does their lineage start with Funakoshi?

Hey John, yes, I know where you're coming from and most definitely see your points. I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo. If one follows that logic then Mitose is the 'root' but 'root' doesn't mean that Kajukenbo is all Kosho ryu, I didn't mean that and I certainly wouldn't leave out the other founders either, it just means to me anyway, that's how it all started. I mean, it's roots weren't Shotokan or Hapkido. I believe in the early years it was called kenpo karate and that still holds true in the Emperado method, which is listed as the 'original' kenpo karate method. We all know that some of the true eclectic blending didn't occur until the 60's. Good question about Shotokan, they may trace it to Funakoshi but when Funakoshi's lineage is shown it does go back to Shorin ryu and Shorei ryu, it has too. Karazenpo's tree always goes under a subsystem of Kajukenbo. I don't know, John, just how I see it but it doesn't mean I don't acknowledge all the founders of Kajukenbo, I'm just talking about tracing back to it's origins.

Karazenpo

12-16-2004, 12:14 PM

John Bishop

12-16-2004, 01:47 PM

I'm not saying I'm right but it's how I view lineage. In every tree I have ever seen it lists Kajukenbo as a subsystem of Chow's kempo and then Chow is listed as a subsystem of Mitose's kempo.
Well, I have nobody to blame but myself, since most of these "Kenpo lineage trees" have been taken from some early magazine articles I wrote about William Chow and other Kenpo people.
But the purpose that I created the tree ( http://www.kajukenboinfo.com/kenpofamilytree.cfm ) was to show the origin of other Kenpo systems that now exist. I could have easily put "Kajukenbo" on a jujitsu tree under Danzan Ryu.
It was the Kajukenbo offshoots that decided to reclaim the "Kenpo" name, after breaking away from Kajukenbo. But the name "Kajukenbo" is more representative of our 5 roots, not one.
So instead of tracing five distinct lineages, we have to start our root with the Founders, who created something uniquely differant then any of the individual 5 systems.

The Kai

12-16-2004, 02:18 PM

I guess to a Large Degree it comes down to whom you consider to be the founder(s) of your style

At what point is a system seperate from it's parent art?

USKS1

12-16-2004, 02:58 PM

The Kai

12-16-2004, 03:52 PM

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?

kelly keltner

12-16-2004, 06:13 PM

Kelly stated:

6. Bruce claims to be the head of his version of Kosho. Not the head of all versions of Kosho. Tom Mitose, Ray Arquilla, have the right to exist and practice what they believe to be kosho.
I really have not paid close attention to the lineage charts for Kosho on the net. So if any one knows of one that is misleading please let me know I'd like to see where these misconceptions are comming from.

Hi Kell, good post, I just don't agree with #6. How can it be just Bruce's version of Kosho yet he's the 22 descendant which would mean 'his' is the Kosho art and everything else would be 'their' version, know what I mean? Personally, I think the original Kosho is of the Thomas Young lineage and it would be hard to argue that it's not.
Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

John Bishop

12-16-2004, 06:36 PM

Like wise
Hanshi Juchnik=Tracy's
Gm Arquillqa (sp?) = Tracy's
GM Alemany = Shaolin Kenpo
Eugene Sedeno=American kenpo

So where does this leave us?
Actually you can go farther than that:
Nimr Hassan (Terry Lee) = Okinawan Karate
James Muro = Danzan Ryu Jujitsu
And a few others

Eugene Sedeno would be Kajukenbo (Walter Godin) & Shaolin Kenpo (Rick Alemany).

GAB

12-16-2004, 09:42 PM

We would have better conversations here if we::feedtroll
John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

12-16-2004, 10:00 PM

John, Please explain your thought pattern on this.

Regards, Gary
The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave

GAB

12-16-2004, 10:08 PM

I have a question. I know Thomas Mitose is considered to be head of one of the Kosho systems, based on his bloodline... But didn't he get the bulk of his training in Kajukenbo?

So is he really teaching Kosho??

Sometimes things aren't always so easy to classify...
USKS1
Yes, that is very true.

One of the reasons for the split after almost a decade of togetherness..

I think the best thing that came out of all this, is that GGM Thomas is continuing the lineage by having his son (Mark) placed in the position of the 23rd GGM.

I truley hope he is going to continue the art.

One of the deals Hanshi Juchnik made with GGM James Mitose was to go forth and get others to learn and spread the art. He did that. He brought into the circle several (all that are named) in the book "True".

I don't think anyone thought it would all be taught the same, just like other styles or systems get a twist, when it goes on down or up the line.

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.

That is the reason Hanshi seeked Thomas out and had such a good friendship with Thomas Young.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-16-2004, 10:16 PM

The imlpication is clear to standers-by.

Dave
Hi, If it is that clear, explain it please in a pm to me or however you want.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-17-2004, 02:19 AM

I couldn't agree more John. Most of the articles in the last 20 years focus on Bruce in relationship to "Mitose's art".

However the info about Hanshi's past is available. He does not try to hide that fact. The focus tends to be toward kosho. Not on Tracy's kenpo. Serrada Escrima or Modern Arnis all of which he is qualified in.

kelly
Hi all,

Yes, Hanshi most of the time is focused in on Kosho.

He is now going to start and incorporate some of his knowledge in FMA and start teaching to students who are interested.
It will be based on the movements that are so good in the relationship to the octagon.
One on one and multiple opponet contact with the stick and empty hand...

Myself for one and my Son for another will be getting some of this training. I will be posting some more information on this later.

Regards, Gary

John Bishop

12-17-2004, 05:08 AM

The Kai

12-17-2004, 10:26 AM

Karazenpo

12-17-2004, 11:10 AM

Joe:
I just noticed your source for this bio. You know better then to take these website claims at face value. Funny thing about this gentleman who calls himself, The founder and Soke of:
SAKANA-DAN RYU GOJU-KENPO KARATE-JUTSU
(FISH-MAN STYLE HARD SOFT-FIST LAW EMPTY HAND-ART)
None of John Leoning's black belts have ever heard of him. And the school address where he says he trained with Leoning was then, and still is a apartment building. Leoning had his school on Lankershim Bl, in No. Hollywood, not where this Soke says he trained. But he wouldn't be the first one to claim rank from someone who is no longer alive to dispute it.

John stated: "You know better then to take these website claims at face value".

No, John, that was not my intention of the post. I posted the bio so others could comment on it because just before that there was controversy about Sifu Leoning's rank in those early years. My intent was to show one of the sources of such controversy. "Joe"

Karazenpo

12-17-2004, 11:11 AM

Good Point Joe. Let me explain to the best of my ability.
The arguement can be made that Bruce is the 22nd descendant. The argument can also be made that Tom is.
I personaly believe from the documentation that I have seen and interviews and personal interaction with people who were there that Bruce Juchnik is the proper person to recognize as the head of that art. In fact Thomas Young recognized him as such.
However after seeing what people like tom and Ray are doing in an effort to see what Mitose wanted done. I have to give them their due. They are working to see what they percieve as Kosho spread. They are doing an admirable job and deserve recognition for it. So if they want to be the 22 grand poobah that's fine. I don't agree with some of the way history is being spun by them, so what. They may not agree about the history Bruce spins. That's Ok.
They are all working in their own way in the right direction.
That is what is important.

kelly

I hear ya, Kell.

Karazenpo

12-17-2004, 11:41 AM

As to the statement about Thomas Young being the person who continued the school and GGM James Mitose training. That is correct.
Okay quick question. Would'nt Thomas Young be the 22nd< Hanshi the 23rd? If the scholl was left to Thomas Young why is he not part of the lineage?
Todd

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........

GAB

12-17-2004, 01:54 PM

John Bishop

12-17-2004, 02:11 PM

John Bishop,

Charles Fisher has many type-o's. He is in a rest home, the computer is his life line with the world.
Regards, Gary
Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.

GAB

12-17-2004, 02:15 PM

Yes, Todd, it would follow, in my opinion, that Professor Young would be the 22nd but if the natural order of progression of lineage follows then the 23rd would be Young's successor, who's name currently alludes me, perhaps John can help). My point in mentioning Thomas Young is simple. He was Mitose's first black belt and is the true keeper of the Kosho flame since he stayed with it for life, evolving and adding to it from it's original teachings. How can anyone argue that? He wasn't someone who got his foundation and advance rankings from another system and then studied the art of Kosho. Wouldn't that be like someone, let's say, with an American Kenpo background, who starts studying Kajukenbo and then becomes the successor to Sijo Emperado? The only exception to my way of thinking would be for Thomas Mitose, if of course 'blood line' is factored in, however, it still appears to me that the original Kosho is found with Professor Young and his descendants. I'm trying not to discredit anyone, that is not my intention, I'm just trying to understand the logic of all of this. It seems to go contrary to everything that came before if you know what I mean..... I also understand that Hanshi Juchnik had a relationship with Professor Young but while checking things out I also came across a picture of GM. Thomas with Professor Young. I guess the debate continues..........
Hi Joe:

One thread quite some time ago, John Bishop said, Thomas Mitose was an honorable person and very quiet about the lineage. I feel that Thomas Mitose is that way because of his respect for Hanshi. He knows the truth...

IN My Opinion the truth is: If not for Hanshi Bruce, Thomas would have been left at the starting gate. He would have had to go to bat and fight for his rightful spot.
Hanshi was responsible for the the good, bad and ugly. He will tell you all about it, just call him. Thomas was and is very grateful for what Hanshi did.

I am sure his son Mark is also. If that is not the truth, then lets hear it.

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade.

Regards, Gary

GAB

12-17-2004, 02:36 PM

Yes, that is a sorrowful situation to be in. But it does not make his claims true.
I guess we are alway's going to be on opposing teams, that is OK.

From what you have said of late makes me believe you are not able to see outside the box.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

What you say, and I say are only one side of the road. Most topics are not always agreed upon. It would be pretty boring if that was the case.

I think it is and has been a good dicussion. Remember this all started because of the A&E topic. I for one am glad to hear anyones input, some of it may not be exactly what I have read or heard but it is still worthy of comment.

Was it Plato who said, arguement is good for arguement's sake? Something like that...

I am alway's respectful of your input.

Regards, Gary

The Kai

12-17-2004, 02:52 PM

But... he did not leave the Keys to the martial art, he left the keys to the building.
But they both trained with Mitose for the same amount of time, but at different loops in the time line. So Y oung was seniormost student leave him the shool, resposibilty and nothing else

You have to remember the people in this thread were together for almost a decade

Sometimes you have to remember that a rising tide lifts all boats. The history of the martail arts is intertwined between practioners.

Are you the only person with the right information? Is Sijo Adriano Emperado always correct?

All Martail Arts history is a curious mixture of fact, myth, misunderstanding and wish - That is what I tell my students.
Sijo history is Sijo's version of Sijo's history-You could put any name in there.
john Bishop gave a double check on the facts. If you don't want to blindly agree to Sijo's history, you neither should blindly agree with a website because you agree to it! Ya know what I mean?
Todd