Hello, Can you share some of your thoughts are this? Is it possible to master the first move? ..with all the right muscle movements,breathing,tension,power,and relax at the right time?

What do you find Kata has done for you? .. by the way I like the Heian Kata's myself. Aloha

Yeah, I think it's possible to master any move with enough practice, but I don't know that it can be perfected, hence the need for constant practice. I think kata are for learning and getting comfortable with different ways of moving. I think that any move in a kata (or really any move that a person can make at all) can be used in some way in a fight. But a kata strings together a bunch of moves that the creator liked, so it's there for you to learn and take whichever moves you like the best and use them in a fight.

Well, here is something I wrote a couple years ago on what I thought the purpose of kata "Should" be.... just don't ask how well I think Classical kata actually do this :D


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Kata are the defining feature of Okinawan karate. Without kata it is no longer karate that you are doing. So the question arises what are kata and what do they accomplish? Kata are probably the most misunderstood training tool used by modern karate-ka. In this article I hope to express my views on what the function of kata is in training and provided support for my views.


First I would like to describe something which I feel is in a sense a kata, although we might not think of it as so. It is not a karate kata, or a martial arts kata but it serves much the same purpose. That kata is as follows:

"The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog."

If you didn't recognize it, it is a sentence often used when learning to type, it could also be used in Calligraphy. It is used because it contains all the letters of the alphabet. By practicing this sentence you practice all the positions required to type.

After enough practice hitting the right keys becomes natural and instinctual. One might say that this sentence contains all the required elements of typing condensed into one sentence that is easy to remember and can be practiced quickly.

Kata act in much the same way, they train our bodies to move in certain ways, keeping good "structure", maintaining balance, proper breathing, etc. All the key elements required for the martial arts. There is certainly more required then just posturing and movements though, and this is also true in typing.

We must also learn spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. The typing "kata" only provides us with the proper positions and movements required to be able to efficiently do this. You can hardly write a novel if you have to spend 3 - 5 seconds pausing to look for each letter on the keyboard.

What the typing "kata" does is allow us to effectively and efficiently make use of our theoretical skill by giving our body the ability to move in the proper manner without thought to what it is doing. We are teaching ourselves to instinctively move in a certain way to accomplish a specific task.

This applies to our karate kata as well. We are teaching ourselves to instinctively move in an efficient way, to maintain a strong structure, to breath in a specific manner, programming our automatic responses to best suit our needs in combat.

We also need strategy, knowledge of techniques, physical conditioning, a clear mental state, etc. Just as in typing you need Grammar and writing ability (strategy), spelling and punctuation (techniques) and focus. The kata can only teach us to move correctly, but not when and where to use those movements, that requires other training.

Now some people choose to use kata purely as a performance act. Trying to look good, kick high and yell lots. This is clearly not the point kata where intended for but it is done and is another possible use for the kata. I might work Calligraphy with that sentence, dress it up, make it fancy, put it on display, etc. That doesn't mean that is the intended purpose of the form, just something that can be done with them. However this is different then using the sentence to learn typing, with the goal of writing. Same as it is different from training kata to look good and training them for martial arts.

Now others have come to the realization that kata contain techniques that can be used in combat. They have analysed the movement sequences and derived applications responding to certain types of events. Often they focus on what have been named the "Habitual Acts of Violence", common attacks that occur in real situations involving physical force.

I cannot dispute that kata contain techniques which do work and can be applied against the HAOV. But I would argue that that is quite trivial and not at all the purpose of doing kata.

One might compare it to recognizing that there are words in the typing kata. Previously you had just been typing the pattern, but not know how to read, how to form sentences or what exactly you where doing. You might think of typing it in a different language, and later realising that there where words contained in that. You then search out how these words might be used in common situations. What I'll call the "Habitual Acts of Conversation", common verbal situations which occur and the appropriate responses.

Now this should come off as rather silly, the individual words are clearly not the purpose in the sentence. The purpose is learning the skill of typing. Learning to hit the right keys at the right time in the right order without having to think about it and being able to focus on what you write, not how you write it.

Karate kata are the same, yes there are words there and yes it is important to be able to recognise what those words are. But it shouldn't be the focus to figure out what the words are and how they are used. If you understand the concepts and tactics of the martial arts you should simply see the techniques used in the kata as clearly as you see the words in the sentence.

That's not to say there is no value to trying to work out kata, this is certainly a good starting point if you don't understand the language. You can start be trying to understand the words you have been using, but the focus should be on learning the language, not just a few words that have been chosen to represent the movements applicable to the martial arts.

So if you have been using various English sentences to learn how to type, and you decide you'd like to start learning English, one starting point would be to start learning how the words you've already been using can be used. But if that is the whole focus, and rather then learning the language you just focus on trying to uncover all the possible uses of the word "fox" you will never really understand English.

It is also often claimed that kata are a mnemonic device used to remember specific techniques. Again I argue that this is silly. It is the same as claiming that the sentence is to remember the words contained within it. If you understand the martial arts / language this has no value.

So what kata are is a series of movements (letters) organized into techniques (words) and further organized into a pattern (sentence) which can be remembered and practiced to develop the movements / postures relevant to the martial arts.

Mr Andrew Green, Thank-you, I like your explanation. I just read a book by MR. Richard Kim, "The Weaponless Warriors. May I add a little more to you Kata stuffs. This was his thoughts on the Kata, Kata is the heart of karate,meant to train the mind and is not intended for conceptual and intellectual self-defence but to bring it in contact with the real self is its true purpose. kata in the traditional sense is a religious ritual. The ablility of attaining a spiritual goal through the practice of kata, so that the player plays against himself and succeeds in conquering himself. To make kata a part of you. Further explantions is those who performs the kata everday and makes it a part of him develops the skills of automatic memory.(this is my conclusion). Great book? His thoughts. Trying to understand the benefits of katas,my thoughts is the masters found by doing it over and over again, It builds the karate body,spirit and mind. Now to practice it???? ..ten times a day,five days a week, makes 100 times..UM? Aloha

Just a little more information. In the book many of the old Masters believe One kata has to be practice for many years before moving on the the next one. About 2-3 years each, practice it over and over everyday,none stop. Maybe that is why today we do not see the benfits of the Kata's.? To build memory is to do it often, many times a day,for years. We often hear..make the Kata a part of you..become the Kata. Is this the way? Aloha

It is a completely different culture, and that one kata for years thing is not restricted to martial arts. But it is also not our culture, and trying to deny that is silly, and would shut down any school that tried.

Read much of basic Eastern philosophy and you will come across people doing some tedious task for years and years and then suddenly becoming experts. "The Karate Kid" demonstrated that as well, but condensed it down to a couple of months.

It is a completely different culture, and that one kata for years thing is not restricted to martial arts. But it is also not our culture, and trying to deny that is silly, and would shut down any school that tried.

Read much of basic Eastern philosophy and you will come across people doing some tedious task for years and years and then suddenly becoming experts. "The Karate Kid" demonstrated that as well, but condensed it down to a couple of months.

First off…..the karate kid movie was “cute” but was basically entertainment and nothing more. I wouldn’t try to glean any in depth martial experience from it.
Second, yes it is a completely different culture than ours but that is beside the point. Asians, whites, blacks are made up of the exact same thing. Their bodies/brains function identically. Most westerners do not understand the whole “learn this kata for several years” thing. When they hear it most people conjure up images of Kwai Chang Caine as “Grasshopper”. Total bull!
The whole doing kata for many years thing comes down to this. You can learn the movements for “dancing” any kata in about a day. The techniques that are in the kata take longer to learn. There are many techniques in the kata, more than most people realize and it takes time for you to learn them and your body to be able to execute them without thinking about them. Neural-muscular memory ring a bell to anyone??? I am not talking about just doing the actual kata in the form…..you have to pick the kata apart and practice each technique with a partner.
Those teachers that say kata has no meaning didn’t do their homework, those students that say kata has no meaning have ill informed teachers.

And a word Processor and a First Person Shooter are made up of the exact same hardware as well, but function completely differently.

Culture is a huge part of who we are and how we think.

As for the Karate Kid, yes it was a silly movie, but one based on the idea of tedious work to attain mastery, something very "Japanese" in its reasoning.

Of course it took many years and turned it into 2 months, but that is beside the point, it is a simple reference that everyone here is probably familiar with used to make a point. Don't take the reference so seriously ;)

Andrew wrote a great post - very informative.

However, I feel that kata should only be about 10% of your training or less. It should help you get an idea of combinations and some mechanics but the only way one learns to apply a move to an active, resisting opponent is to practice the move against an active, resisting opponent.

Kata is like doing drill with your rifle. You get used to feeling it, but you need to spend a lot of time shooting it, finding cover and concealment, and getting shot at (preferably with just paintballs). It will be more comfortable in your hands because of all the drilling, but drilling is just about 10% of what you're doing (if you want to be able to do it for real).

Fighting air will not make you a better fighter. Been there, done that, did not help me at all whatsoever in street fights (I paid my way through school as a bouncer).

If anything, overemphasis on kata brought about bad habits, not the least of which included the fact that hitting a 180+ lb. body results in Newton's 3rd law about equal and opposite reactions. I managed to kick myself and the opponent down as my balance was centered, as if I was doing kata. I only made this mistake once.

If you want to do it for meditation or for fitness, that's great. Personally, I prefer yoga, running, and swimming.

I've heard many times that all the kata and air-fighting is mostly for kids. After WWII when the Allied GIs were occupying Japan, they were taught kids' karate, kempo, ninjitsu, jujitsu, etc., and brought over their training to the USA.

But what they brought was not very serious (though they took it seriously) because the occupied Japanese were not inclined toward teaching their conquerers their prized cultural secrets - especially ones that confer power right when they are feeling powerless because they've been conquored.

almost didn't want to answer, see the same thing again and again. Like Robert said, your feelings about kata tend to reflect your teachers understanding. Been there, done that, did not help me at all whatsoever in street fightstells me you didn't "do it" enough, or didn't understand what you were doing.

Kata, once properly understood, trained, and visualized is all you need to train - it is how your technique can improve even without an instructor... cause they provide this great training tool/reference book in one.

This goes along the lines of what SenseiBear was saying.

What a Kata does is teach about proper stances, range of motion, targeting, balance, and basic principles (such as opposing forces, contouring, etc.) among other possible lessons. For these reasons, a kata is not a useless exercise. Practicing with a resisting partner also teaches lessons. There is room for both types of training methods. They have their merits and advantages.

- Ceicei

Kata, once properly understood, trained, and visualized is all you need to train - it is how your technique can improve even without an instructor... cause they provide this great training tool/reference book in one.Tells me you haven't fought.

Tells me you haven't fought.

How would you know what he has or hasn't done?


Ok, one more time for those folks that weren’t paying attention on all the “kata are worthless” threads.

Kata done ALONE can be good exercise, teach you some basic movements and reinforce some eye hand coordination. Will practicing kata alone make you a better fighter?…..that was not the intent of practicing kata alone so it’s a ridiculous question.

When techniques that are in the kata are taken out and practiced with a partner (i.e. randori style as found in judo and jujutsu) then they become viable and useful for real situations and real fights. For this part of practicing kata you NEED a partner.

To make stupid blanket statements like “kata are worthless” or “kata won’t help you in a real fight” come from having a un-educated teacher that didn’t understand how to use kata as a training tool……similarly I could make an equally stupid statement by saying “shadow boxing is a waste of time since you don’t actually fight anyone”.

Anybody still not getting the picture?

That is part of properly training kata -

So, what about using different techniques in a variety of situations against resisting partners doesn't help you fight?

That is part of properly training kata -

So, what about using different techniques in a variety of situations against resisting partners doesn't help you fight?

Beats me.....

Ya know I have seen the way judoka, and jujutsuka train and I have yet to see any real difference in the way they train and the way I train.

I am not talking about specific techniques mind you, I am talking about the application of learned techniques.

I would also like to add that if I have to look at yet another “Kata: good or bad?” debate I think I am going to puke.
People that say “kata has no use” were not trained properly on how to use kata….it’s that simple. Kata has a use, shadow boxing has a use, bag work, makiwara, sparring, drills…..everything has a use……
After reading the posts of the “kata has no use” faction of the last few years on the internet I have come to the conclusion that some of them just say it because A) they were not trained properly on how to use kata and really think so or B) they just want to sound tough……

The way I have explained katas by comparing it to other sports. In BBall you learn to dribble between your legs, pass correctly, and shoot the ball with your had behind the ball ect. You learn all your shots and playes with out your opponet. infront of you. But come game time you have the ball going down the court that last thing on your mind is how to shoot, pass, or dribble the ball, that is all automatic. what are you looking for your looking for the breakdown of the defence. do you wont to shoot, pass run a play, were is the mismatch, ect. This is what the kata teaches you. The kata teaches you how to defend, block strike, punch, kick in the correct way and without thinking. that way come sparring or "game time" you are not thinking of how your opponit with come at you. the blocks are already their, you are looking on how to break him down and where his week spot. hope that helps.

The problem with that sort of comparisson is that in basketball when learning to dribble, you need a ball. You don't just mimic the motions in the air. What you are saying may make a case for some sort of 2 person form though...

But it is learning to control the ball that you are doing, and you can't do this without a ball. How can you learn to control an opponent without an opponent?

the ball isnt your opponent.......its just a tool of the game.......kind of like a sword

shawn

That's why they're called open-hand or empty-hand forms. Saying that is like saying you can't learn to shoot unless you have someone there to block you like in a real game or you can't learn to dribble unless there's someone there to try to steal the ball. But, like BlackCatBonz said, you also have weapon forms which you do practice with the actual weapons in your hand. It would be kind of stupid to practice a sword kata without a sword, but in most fights, you won't have a weapon, so you should learn how to fight with empty hands...which you can do by practicing open-hand forms.

From Shihan-Te: The Bunkai of Karate Kata by Darrell Craig and Paul Anderson

Martial arts kata are a set of prearranged movements in which the person doing the kata is engaged in battle with an imaginary opponent. Kata contains all of the movements found in karate and after practicing any, some, or all of these movements hundreds of thousands of times, these movements become embedded in the subconscious of the practicioner. At this level, the movements of kata are as natural and instantly available to the practitioner as any of his other reflexes.

Consider that everything in life is kata. If you do the same thing over and over, that's kata. When you get up in the morning and brush your teeth in a certain way, if you are sitting a table and you put the sliverware exactly like you want each and every time, this is kata. Every driver in an Indianapolis 500 race shifts gears thousands of times before the race to know how he should shift, how the car reacts, how it moves; this is kata. Kata is about research and performing to the maximum of one's ability. To do this you have to do movements over and over again. Ballet, tap dance, and race driving are kata. Most people do not see it as kata, but this is what it really is.

Kata is about doing something over and over until it's perfect. This pursuit is, of course, infinite because there is not one thing in life that is perfect. But, those who seek perfection have to make repetition in what they are seeking. This is kata.

... How can you learn to control an opponent without an opponent?
But that is part of "Training Kata". You take techniques from the form, and practice them against an opponent. back and forth until you can execute against an opponent fighting you in a variety of ways.

And practice each technique against different attacks. Good kata contain a lot of "archetypical movement", movement that have a variety of applications -

Your comparison with the "quick brown fox" was good, because when practiced alone it is that, but for more than just learning to punch & kick, but in these archetypes that teach your body how to move in ways that are applicable to most attacks - And more than that, each one is a small technical manual on specific techniques, attacks, methods of angular motion - to give you lots of techniques to pull out, and train, in a variety of situations, against a resisting opponent.

If you had an instructor in the past who didn't include that stuff in your 'kata-related training' - if they said "do the kata just like this, and that is all you need to know to defend yourself", well, I'm sorry, they were wrong, and they didn't understand kata or how to use it as a training guide and tool.

Do you need kata to be a good fighter or martial artist? No, of course not. Shoot, you can just spend years out on the mat, trying stuff out until you figure out what works - but since other people have spent lifetimes figuring that out, and have devised ways to attempt to teach you, seems like wasted effort.

Is it the only way to transmit techniques? No, the Hapkido guys I know do fine with long strings of numbered responses to specific attacks - but guess what - they also will sometimes do their techniques alone, in the air - it still helps train your body's muscle memory, but is faster, and can be done any where... like kata.

You can say you don't understand the applications - heck, you can say you just don't like them, I have a buddy, after his nidan, decided he wasn't going to do kata anymore. he didn't like them. He had spent 15 years working them, knew maybe 40, and decided he was done. Not that the knew them all, he just never liked learning them, so he stopped. he now trains in styles without them - and is still excellent.

But to say they are worthless is just meaningless, like saying the earth is flat.

Kata are encylopedias of martial technique. Every technique and nuance of movement in a Kata has numerous applications. Practicing kata alone is a good workout and a good way to always remember the stuff that you actually train. To actually learn a Kata...and all of the knowledge they contain...it takes years. And this can be daunting once you have memorized a dozen or so Kata. Breaking them all down can literally be something you could do for the rest of your life!

Kata are encylopedias of martial technique. Every technique and nuance of movement in a Kata has numerous applications. Practicing kata alone is a good workout and a good way to always remember the stuff that you actually train. To actually learn a Kata...and all of the knowledge they contain...it takes years. And this can be daunting once you have memorized a dozen or so Kata. Breaking them all down can literally be something you could do for the rest of your life!
Hi all,

I would say probably one of the reasons "Choki Motobu" liked the kata he did the most and did it so many times. "Naihanchi".

FMA's have taken 12 strikes dropped to 8 strikes and then to 5 strikes (basic), same with Boxers in the world of the "sweet science".

When hitting a golf ball you use the same swing but shorten your clubs or stand in a different stance. The swing should be the same, at best that is really hard...

Katas are good but not the only solution, especially if you live in a free and not quite as controlled enviroment as the original "karate" came from. (using karate as generic term).

Why do we (some) always feel the controlled situation is the only way to do it?

I think William Chow was very instrumental in techniques, not the kata.

I believe Kata has its place, but without it, does not mean you cannot fight and win. Generally that is the reason for the taking of Martial Arts, but it is not the only reason.

Regards, Gary

but one based on the idea of tedious work to attain mastery, something very "Japanese" in its reasoning.

Not really. The constant repetition of tedious mechanical forms that I'm doing in TKD is *very* similar to what, as a musician, I have had to do over the last two decades to become a good, well rounded musician

It's not very popular amongst most people today, to train for years in rote skills to attain a level of excellence, but it's not particularly an Eastern idea, either

but one based on the idea of tedious work to attain mastery, something very "Japanese" in its reasoning.

Not really. The constant repetition of tedious mechanical forms that I'm doing in TKD is *very* similar to what, as a musician, I have had to do over the last two decades to become a good, well rounded musician

It's not very popular amongst most people today, to train for years in rote skills to attain a level of excellence, but it's not particularly an Eastern idea, either
Hi all,

Webster said, "by rote=by memory without thought of the meaning, by a fixed procedure".

Not something I want to use all the time, or not to think about.

I will say, some of the time, but not all the time...

I will use this one more time, "I think, therefore I am"...

Sympathetic and para sympathetic, reflex and kneejerk, comes to mind...

Regards, Gary

Hi folks....

At last.. something on the net about kat's thats informative and correct, personal without being rude... great.

firstly, I'll make it clear... I utterly despise KATA. I find that the affect they have on people is usally wrong, it genereates the wrong image to most people, conveys the wrong information, and it taken literally by so many. So I hate kata.

I do not hate kata for themselves. They were a tool/method for programing the body in new ways, to get the body to respond to unusual stimuli, ingrain techniques into the mind and condition the limbs and organs for the uncommon effort and activity. Kata are an excercise for the body and brain, teaching us the timings of movement, breathing and focus.

Instead, people took them to mean something more. They thought Kata was karate... that knowing a kata was knowing karate.... that by being able to perform a kata meant they they could do karate.... and it has little to do with it!

Kata can be many things... be it a wrote method of performing set actions, (including the tea ceremony!), singularly or paired/grouped, simply shifting through stances, blocks, atemi, uchi, tsuki, geriempi or heeza, breathing etc....or any other set method performed in a particular order wit hthe aim of getting the body and brain conjoined so it offers conditioning both physically and mentally.... then it's kata!

If that sort of thing was understood by all, and you didn't have flaming clubs springing up that grant you a black belt in a year just for ding a few simple stikes and learning a host of kata, (one a month), then things would be great... instead you have people around the world who learn a couple of kata, and go "I know Karate"... hell, I've been doing karate since I was 4 years old, and still practice today.. I do not know karate.. I do not know my katas.... but I do practice both!

I think that last part summed it up... practice - not know!

OK, OK, kata don't suck, it's people in general nothing personal.. you folk have really impressed me with the depth of feeling and knowledge on kata... so your off the "people suck" list LOL)

I think one very important value of kata is that they teach the student how to make smooth transitions. I think most of the "pro" kata people made some excellent points so I won't repeat them. However, for me, Kata also work as a way of relieving tension. Also, If I'm not up to practicing one night, I may just say to myself, well, do ONE form. Just one. After doing it, I have to try it again, then maybe another. Before I know it I've had a decent practice I would not otherwise have had. Also, so many concentrate strictly on the combative aspects of the MA and forget that it has many other lessons to teach as well. I know that my balance in other areas of life, incluiding physicial coordination and stamina, is better for form practice.

Check out this Article (http://www.society.webcentral.com.au/Secrets.htm) The Theory & Application of Tradition Kata

We are taught katas are encyclopedias of techniques. Need to get away from 5 people circled around you? We have a kata that tells you how. Wanna dislocate a person's shooulder and drag them around? Got that. You have to be able to tear the kata apart to see what you are really doing. I don't know how long it takes to learn a whole kata, if they taught everything in a kata it would take years, its spread out. I am still finding stuff in our first white belt kata that I didn't know was there.

Need to get away from 5 people circled around you? We have a kata that tells you how.


I shore as hell would love to learn that one, is it called the Run Forest, run kata?

I don't look at kata as "encyclopedia of technique." You should try to get away from "technique" oriented karate and view it a little more organically. Kata develop a lot of fundamentals, they build power and focus and, over time, they build a strong spirit. Many things are incorporated into kata, but it takes years of doing them to bring it all out. I am speaking from the perspective of a traditional Shito-ryu practitioner, so I am referring to the traditional kata practiced in the traditional way. It is unfortunate that, today, students have been allowed to become impatient and have not been properly taught how to understand and practice the kata.

I agree that katas build fundamentals, power, focus ect. But haven't you ever been sparring or doing self defence and remembered something from a kata you can use? Like, being surrounded, Shi Ho Hi tells me how to get out. I need to defend myself with 'chucks from 2 people (one on each side) Kinon Kata Nidon teaches me how. There are so much to katas that some people don't realize. In our system we build on the katas thru the ranks. How I do a kata isn't how a Shihan will do it because he knows the differences I haven't been taught yet. Because most people now aren't going to spend 3 or 7 years learning 1 kata before they can move to the next like Chitose, and all others before us did.

I agree that katas build fundamentals, power, focus ect. But haven't you ever been sparring or doing self defence and remembered something from a kata you can use? Like, being surrounded, Shi Ho Hi tells me how to get out. I need to defend myself with 'chucks from 2 people (one on each side) Kinon Kata Nidon teaches me how. There are so much to katas that some people don't realize. In our system we build on the katas thru the ranks. How I do a kata isn't how a Shihan will do it because he knows the differences I haven't been taught yet. Because most people now aren't going to spend 3 or 7 years learning 1 kata before they can move to the next like Chitose, and all others before us did.
you might spend a day or 2 memorizing the kata......but if you stick with it, you will definitely spend the next 3 to 7 years learning it.

It isn't even 3-7 years, it is your whole life. You learn the kata as they are required or taught, then you always do them. They are not just milestones you pass by on a one way trip. I've been in karate for 35 years and I still do the Pinan every time I work out. They still teach me things and if you don't think high dan can screw up basic kata, you're wrong. Karate should go with you through your whole life, and the kata are what carry you there.

I agree with you, what I tried to say, I think it was Chitose that studied Seisan for about 7 years before his instructor would teach him another kata. But, I'm told people today want to see progress faster. Same as why they started colored belts. Where the Japanese plan 20 years from now, we want it today. Is this true? Yes, in our dojo we are always building on katas, how I do seisan, how shihan does seisan, and how our 8th dan Sensei does seisan are different. Not because anybody is wrong, but because I know they know they know so much more about the kata. There have been times I've asked sensei about a kata because I have been show more than one way to do it and he's told me both ways are correct, just one way was at a higher rank.

I think that kata are probably taught a little faster today than even when I started back in the late sixties/early seventies. When I was promoted to shodan by Higioshi, I knew the 5 Pinan, Naihanchi Shodan, Bassai Dai, Wansu and Kushanku. That was four years worth. Now, my shodan students will know about 15 kata in the same amount of time. Teaching methods have changed some, training is not as rough as it was in Okinawa in the old days, and the entire kata is usually taught before any applications are taught. When I learned, I was taught the applications as I learned the kata and could not move to the next part of the kata until I could show the applications for the parts I knew. I don't teach that way and I don't think many others do, either.

Gene, that's not a bad way of teaching IMO. We still teach somewhat that way. Also if I ever open my school I would like to incorporate that method also. That is teach a kata and it's applications simoultaneously.

I've done it, but I guess it is just a personality thing that I like to see them know the whole kata first, then bunkai. I build some basic bunkai into partner work and fundamentals, but when I teach someone a new kata, I usually just teach the kata. Now, with seniors, I'll throw in a bunkai if they are scratching their heads about a move or if I just want to show off:) Sometimes seeing the bunkai will help them understand how the move is done in the kata.

Gene, I think we're pretty much on the same boat. I try not to get caught up in teaching too much bunkai as it will confuse the student, especialy a begginer. In that sense I might show a bunkai, but not teach it. You understand what I mean? Or I've geared a class towars strictly self defense only, no kata (God forbid!) then demonstrated where in the katas were the moves.
A number of years ago my karate sensei asked me to teach Police Defensive Tactics at a weekend training camp we had. Throughout the class I showed where in the katas they could find the techniques.
Now it's a moot point since I haven't taught karate in a number of years anyway.

Yeah, we're on the same boat. Are you still going to class? I hope you are still working out yourself. I've turned my dojo over to my senior student, a godan. I got burned out for a while with teaching, but now the rec dept. in the next county wants me to start a class. It might be fun to have a whole class full of beginners again. I was so top heavy with yondan and godan that I got spoiled. A couple moved off and are teaching in other cities. I do clinics for them sometimes. But, the dojo now has a bunch of dan and only 3 or 4 mudansha. I spoiled my seniors by not kicking them out and making them teach somewhere.

In my first art, kata were introduced at the rate of one every two years after 3-5 years of training basics, conditioning and hard contact sparring. I know three and a half kata from my old system (after 8 years of training in it), but wouldn't trade them for "knowing" a dozen or more kata taught for typical belt tests.

At this stage, I honestly have no idea how someone could truly benefit from kata without having a solid combative base, or how someone could claim to really know a kata after less than a year. Older katas are really collections of advanced tricks and repeated movements that can make you look at fundamentals in new ways. The movements are often deliberately simplified to ease teaching and to keep from limiting your ability to interpret them. Most movements are not really "finished," except for one or two base applications. If you don't have a basic fighting system in place, you won't be able to make use of them. If you don't know how to modify a reverse punch in the dojo to an effective cross or use the chamber to grab and anchor, then similar principles in the kata won't appear.

That said, I'd put sets like the Pinans in a whole different category. They string together kihon and are not really katas in the same fashion as Naihanchi.

I'm not sure which Pinan you have been watching (the styles you list for yourself don't do them, which raises the question of what you actually know about them), but the Pinan are not just kihon strung together. They are major kata of many Okinawan systems and are taught and practiced as essential kata. Many students want to hurry through them to get to more advanced kata, but that is a mistake. I would give up a number of "higher" kata to keep the Pinan. You are correct in that you cannot "know" a kata in a year. It takes more like 5 or 10 years. Oh, and it is "Pinan" and "kata." No plurals in Japanese.

I'm not sure which Pinan you have been watching (the styles you list for yourself don't do them, which raises the question of what you actually know about them), but the Pinan are not just kihon strung together. They are major kata of many Okinawan systems and are taught and practiced as essential kata.
Sure they're important. That's why they were invented for the Okinawan phys ed system. <b>That's</b> why they get taught first. They are, at minimum, second or third generation katas compared to the traditional sets that originate in Fujian Southern Crane/Monk Fist/etc. Their techniques are largely derivative of earlier sets, with an extra emphasis on repetition. You can't really say that the successive gedan barais in Pinan Nidan (to yank one out of the air) were intended to be interpreted with the same depth as the potential lock flows in the 2nd-5th moves of Passai Dai. They do work wonders for ingraining the technique, though.

And to answer your implicit question: not all kenpo is EPAK.

Many students want to hurry through them to get to more advanced kata, but that is a mistake. I would give up a number of "higher" kata to keep the Pinan.
I'm not slagging the Pinans by any means. I just don't think they're meant for the same things. I freely admit I haven't done as as serious a study of them as I have, say, Naihanchi Shodan -- but then again, I happen to think that Naihanchi Shodan is a more "serious" kata. You make the call.

You are correct in that you cannot "know" a kata in a year. It takes more like 5 or 10 years.
I'm not talking about the numinous aspects of "mastering" or "exploring" a kata. It's easy to talk about taking ages to truly learn a kata, but the fact is that even learning it in the first place shouldn't be rushed. Nor should training katas come at the expense of skills development. Have you ever taken time for a friendly tegumi/okinawan sumo bout? That's the kind of thing Okinawans did in addition to repeating kata movements. These direct experiences inform how one creates bunkai. If you don't have 'em, you won't find 'em.

Plus, it takes time to develop intent with each movement. For instance, I was working the topfist the other day to see how it works with several sequences where it's implicit (my Xingyi training introduced me to this possibility). I want it to be just as reflexive as a jab/cross or grab/uraken. That takes time.

Oh, and it is "Pinan" and "kata." No plurals in Japanese.
Fortunately, I am speaking English.

Well, I have trouble saying that one kata is any more "serious" than any other unless we are talking about Fukyugata or Gakki Sai in relation to more "advanced" kata. I would class the Pinan as second generation kata because Itosu developed them from pre-existing kata. I happen to think Itosu was a genius and that the five Pinan are a master work. People get hung up on the fact that he developed them for phys ed students. That may be true, but many things designed for one reason become important far beyond their original purpose. The Pinan Nidan of Motobu ha has no "successive gedan barai." Everything is a combination of block punch or block trap/grab. You're thinking JKA. Anyway, you are correct that much of Okinawan kata came from China originally. When I first witnessed some guys from Cho Lay Fut and Shaolin train I thought, "damn, they look like us." Kung Fu has gotten a bad rap in this country what with all the scarves tied to swords, carnival clothing, and Wu Shu acrobatics. In some kata, the Chinese influence just leaps out at you. It would be impossible to sort it all out as there was so much cultural exchange between Okinawan and China. Please, no one, and I mean no one, is talking about "numinous aspects of kata." You train hard all your life, that's it. Learning never stops, but you are right in that it should not ever be rushed. Yes, we do some pretty rough old Okinawan drills and a lot that come from Goju and Higaonna. Anyway, go run the Pinan. Gene