I'm curious, maybe someone here can answer a question for me...

In Richard Von Donk's Home study course, How often are you allowed to test for rank? Is there a certain "waiting" period, or can you test as often as you feel ready? I have asked this question over in AN about the Toshindo home study course as well... No real reason, Im just curious as to the answer.

Thanks!

Technopunk: "...In Richard Von Donk's Home study course, How often are you allowed to test for rank? Is there a certain "waiting" period, or can you test as often as you feel ready? "

I have the home study course materials (reference materials only, as I have access to plenty of quality dojo), and I'm looking through the manual . . .

I don't see any requirements for minimum time between rank, or for limits on how many times you can retry a rank. It seems like learning at your own pace is a selling point of the program. In the manual, it has average training times for each rank, but no required minimum.

Questions regarding RVD's HSC come up quite often, so maybe we can gather up all the questions and answers and compile them into a sticky post all about HSC's.

Here are some other facts about the RVD HSC that I can provide since I have the manual open in front of me:

Blackbelt Course Training Manual 5th ed., pg. 13

- Background and Overview -

"Training both inside and outside of the school is a fundamental necessity to training . . . Many techniques, . . . and exploration of applications are covered in training sessions. . . much of this skill is almost impossible to learn on one's own without guidance. You must continually seek training from a licensed Bujinkan instructor, . . . training in a crowded school is the best experience that you will ever have in a controlled situation. Books, and other sources of information . . . are of no use without a qualified instructor to guide you through constant practice sessions with many other students . . ."

The way the video testing is done, is you tape yourself performing the required techniques for the rank you're working on, mail the tape to a review panel with $40 and an application form, and wait for feedback. If you pass, you will be sent your rank certificate and a critique sheet with positive feedback concerning strengths and weaknesses. If you don't pass, you will receive feedback on how to improve, and a refund of $30 (or you may elect to have the ABD hold the $30 for when you do pass). $10 is not refundable as it goes to the review panel for their time. They will also keep your tape regardless if you pass or fail, so make a copy if you want one.

Testing for shodan (black belt) is only done in person, and it is also highly recommended to go in for review in person sometime around 4th kyu and again before 1st kyu.

Also required for shodan is the earning of at least five weapons specialist ratings. These can be learned at seminars, or through video testing - which would require additional purchase of weapons training videos, etc.

Some of the kyu ranks also require a book report. For example, 7th kyu requires a one page report on the concepts found in Hatsumi's "Essence of Ninjutsu." Oral reports are also required on topics such as features / qualities of various weapons, strategy, injury prevention, etc. I assume that a speech recorded at the end of a video testing tape would suffice. So demonstration of physical techniques is not enough, ABD also wants students to have good comprehension, writing, and public speaking skills, and I imagine that they can get a feel for someone's personality by reading their works or watching them speak.

sounds similar to our hsprogram. cool.

peace

So in theory could a person with say a 1st Dan in Toshindo potentially purchase and study these tapes, modify his techniques, send back a tape every couple days and earn a Bujinkan BB in a few weeks/months based on his/her prior Toshindo training since the techniques are inherently similar?

Would that be a correct assumption?

from what i have heard... you can take the toshindo course and just ask for a ranking in bujinkan and not a ranking in toshindo. hayes gives both upon request. just depends what you are going to use it for.

peace

That is correct. You can purchase the To-Shin Do curriculum, test, and in lieu of a rank in To-Shin Do, you can receive a Bujinkan diploma/rank. This is per An-Shu Hayes. No need to dual rank.

That is correct. You can purchase the To-Shin Do curriculum, test, and in lieu of a rank in To-Shin Do, you can receive a Bujinkan diploma/rank. This is per An-Shu Hayes. No need to dual rank.
But if you were looking for Dual Blackbelts...

But if you were looking for Dual Blackbelts... Please see my response in American Ninjustu forum. Interesting question...

I just had a weird thought pop into my head.

How do people like RVD insure that the person that is on the video they are grading are the ones that they are issuing to rank to?

Or that the persons performing the movements have actually understood anything worthwhile?

Why would I not pass? Perhaps you know the material, but do not understand it or perform effectively. We will send you a "coaching note" with suggestions, and you can test again.
That is from the To-Shin-Do HSC. I believe that if you do not pass; you can retest without repaying the ranking fee.
In the "knowledge test" you are supposed to detail a personal benefit gained from training that you did not expect. It seems that Mr. Hayes seems to at least be putting an effort towards making sure that the students actually understand the material. Mr. Hayes encourages students to introduce themselves at the beginning of this test; this way, the grading board recognizes the student by face and name, they also know who to award the ranking (BBT or TSD) to.

Don Roley: "How do people like RVD insure that the person that is on the video they are grading are the ones that they are issuing rank to?"

Ooh, interesting. I've never thought of that. Do you mean that someone who wants the rank cert. to hang on the wall but doesn't want to do any work for it or develop any skills asks someone who is already proficient in martial arts to record themselves and give the other's name?

Pretty devious. I guess the ABD just has to assume that people are being honest.

I know that before you are allowed to test for rank you have to be a dues paying member of both the international Bujinkan, and the ABD, and there is a long application form that one has to fill out that gives a lot of background information. Plus the requirement to test in person at least for shodan should keep some of the fruad down, but still I guess it is possible to cheat that way.

Technopunk: "But if you were looking for Dual Blackbelts..."

You mean use the Toshindo HSC to get a Toshindo shodan, and then get the RVD HSC to get a Bujinkan shodan?

I see no reason why not (at least in practicality - it is possible, but just seems a bit silly to me).

I just had a weird thought pop into my head.

How do people like RVD insure that the person that is on the video they are grading are the ones that they are issuing to rank to?

Well, SKH and RVD probably wouldnt know until you went to take your BB test. Both require you to be present to get your BB. actually, SKH requires you to be present for Brown belt (1st kyu).


Or that the persons performing the movements have actually understood anything worthwhile?
Keeping the theme of being present, if a Judan cannot teach the appropriate skills, than perhaps reconsider the system you are training in

Also, if you are using the HSC for Bujinkan, you must be there for 2nd Kyu, 1st Kyu, and Shodan.

I happen to know (and have trained with) 2 guys who got their ranks (currently sandan) from RVD home course...they are nice guys and can quickly tell you the names to any kata, however that is all they can do- the kata. They have a definite inability to adapt or extend from the kata as Hatsumi stresses. They also seem to have inherited the "let's make more money" business sense from RVD as well. :rolleyes:

Curiuos as well... does the RVD home study course cover all the material in the... er... whassitcalled... tenchijin?

The bujinkan guide to everything you are supposed to know by blackbelt.

:idunno:

Im having a serious brain-fart right now

Curiuos as well... does the RVD home study course cover all the material in the... er... whassitcalled... tenchijin?
Maybe a better question would be, "Which Tenchijin"?

There's the original one in Japanese, which was available through the Honbu in Japan until about 4 years ago, and then there are all the translations. When I bought my copy in Japanese, I was told "Don't translate this", and on the very last page it says something to the extent of "Don't copy and distribute". But there are English "Versions" floating around out there; I've seen 4 versions out there so far and EVERY ONE OF THEM has a combination of deletions, additions, and "liberal adaptions".

Maybe a better question would be, "Which Tenchijin"?

There's the original one in Japanese, which was available through the Honbu in Japan until about 4 years ago, and then there are all the translations. When I bought my copy in Japanese, I was told "Don't translate this", and on the very last page it says something to the extent of "Don't copy and distribute". But there are English "Versions" floating around out there; I've seen 4 versions out there so far and EVERY ONE OF THEM has a combination of deletions, additions, and "liberal adaptions".
Well... er... the real one?

:)

I think Don actually hit the nail right on the head with this one. But then of course the required "live" testing should keep most of the fraud down as others have pointed out.

The one thing that sticks out to me is this...with video testing, you can re-do it as many times as you like to make sure everything looks all great but in a dojo, that benefit does not exist! Try doing any kata while having people come at you trying to take your head off and the instructor watching you intently is stressful. There are many times I wished I could redo many of my tests! :)

This is why I do not endorse rank by video programs. Makes me wonder exactly what kind of skill a person ranked by video really has.

Deaf

Exactly right Mr. Deaf. Part of the training is the travel it takes to find and train with good instructors. Like a modern-day warrior pilgrimage. Also, certain technical aspects get lost on video, or the person doesn't know what to look for, such as where the foot is pointing, how far the knees should bend, and so on. You also can't catch the feeling or the spirit of the lesson being taught. There are just too many pitfalls in this type of training. Not to mention that the instructor demonstrating on the home study course may not be all that good or out of practice.

Technopunk: "does the RVD home study course cover all the material in the... er... whassitcalled... tenchijin?"

tenchijin: http://starbuck.virtualave.net/main/ninpo/tenchijin.htm

rvd hsc: http://www.ninjutsu.com/shodan-curriculum.shtml

Technopunk: "does the RVD home study course cover all the material in the... er... whassitcalled... tenchijin?"

tenchijin: http://starbuck.virtualave.net/main/ninpo/tenchijin.htm

rvd hsc: http://www.ninjutsu.com/shodan-curriculum.shtml


Both of the lists at those links have omissions and/or additions.

. . . not to mention the frequent confusion between the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki, and the Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu book - which is divided into Ten, Chi, and Jin sections.

The bujinkan guide to everything you are supposed to know by blackbelt.The TCJRnM is what you are supposed to know by Godan - not blackbelt.

-Daniel

PS - and for Kizaru - the Japanese version is the preferred version. Anything close, however, is a good step in the right direction - despite your objections to the translation issues....

DWeidman: "The TCJRnM is what you are supposed to know by Godan - not blackbelt."

Well that seems more manageable then, and also explains why one shidoshi told me that all that was required for shodan was proficiency in ukemi, sanshin, and kihon happo - which is only part of the Ten Ryaku section.

I'm curious, since I've only seen samples and outlines of the TCJ, does it include any weapons training? What are the usual guidelines for weapons proficiency by shodan? by godan?

If only the Ten Ryaku is required for shodan, when should the majority of the Chi Ryaku be covered? When should one be learning mostly from the Jin Ryaku?

The RVD HSC seems to be drawn mostly from the Ten and Chi sections + at least one weapon focused on per kyu rank.

Well that seems more manageable then, and also explains why one shidoshi told me that all that was required for shodan was proficiency in ukemi, sanshin, and kihon happo - which is only part of the Ten Ryaku section.
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If only the Ten Ryaku is required for shodan, when should the majority of the Chi Ryaku be covered? When should one be learning mostly from the Jin Ryaku?

The majority of the syllabus that I have seen, tend to include both Ten and Chi in their kyuu syllabus. The idea being that from shodan - yondan, one is studying the kata in order to learn the principles and strategies contained therein. In order to be focused on this objective, one should have already learned the parts that make up the kata hence the training of both Ten and Chi during the kyuu levels.

The TCJRnM is what you are supposed to know by Godan - not blackbelt.

That is what we use as the standard for shodan

That is what we use as the standard for shodanUm.... Ok.

Who is the "we" found in your quote?

It is my understanding that Hatsumi put the TCJRnM as a guide of things you are supposed to know by the time you test for your Godan. If you want to put it all in 9th kyu - knock yourself out...

-Daniel

PS. You will note the TCJRnM isn't broken down by Kyu or Dan - it is a guide - not a curriculum...