American Ninjutsu - Forum Charter

"Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."

This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction.

American Ninjutsu
American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students).
To Shin Do is one thing, but Tew and Bussey???

Also I wouldn't say that "traditional ninjutsu" is "bound" by traditionalism, although that's a different matter altogether.

This "Charter" if you will is like all of them here, open to evolution as things progress. We had to start somewhere.

Our goals with this section are multiple.
- To give those individuals who study the non-Japanese versions, spin offs and adaptations a place to discuss without the fear of being bound by "Traditional" limitations.
- To prevent the continued disruption of the forums by the non-stop traditional/modern warfare
- To expand the services offered by MT to the martial arts community as a whole.


If the posted charter is inadequate, we are open to modification. Please use this thread to discuss and debate those modifications.

:asian:

Where were you when Kerry needed some speeches written? That is a very, very politically correct and kind and polite charter.

I think one defining factor between the To-Shin So system is Hayes Shihan has spent some documentable time studying an authentic ninjutsu system. It is open to discussion how much ninjutsu he was taught and there can be still more discussion on how much he retained.

But the bottom line for Hayes Shihan is; He was there and he can have an interpretation based on his experiences.

I feel safe saying Tew and Bussey have more knowledge of hair care products than ninjutsu.

So if you are looking for a delineating factor between True "American Ninjutsu" and posuers, I think verifiable, long term experience is needed. Otherwise you open the doors for any kid who's competent with a keyboard and camera to start his own "American Ninjutsu" style and this would just degrade the reputation of those who actually CAN make that claim. And there are some true spank-meisters out there. Seeing an "American Ninjutsu" Soke who is maybe, MAYBE twenty, describe how you can block a sword cut with a saya on his forearm, (Think Upper Block for you TKD and Karate types with the scabbard lying on the forearm.) is asking for dismemberment. Saya are thin wood paper and lacquer. And it's not the first cut that would kill him. But the next one...or the one after that. That's "American NInjutsu" But of a wholly different calibre than what anyone with two operating brain cells would want to be associated with.

I think another delineating factor may be language and weapons. If they use Japanese and the traditional Ningu, Hanbo, Ken, tachi, yari et al or the other set of "traditional" weapons, Nunchucks, sai, tonfa, (teehee) then the art is trying to be traditional. If the "American Ninjutsu" art is trying to use non-traditional japanese weapons, say a vacuum cleaner, then there is an attempt for it to be non-traditional.

Otherwise the instructors are just venal at worst, mercantile at best and trying to cash in on the '80's ninjer craze.

So perhaps a list of qualifications with points awarded for each item. So, sticking with the vacuum cleaner act; a school that teaches vacuum cleaner jutsu award some points for the vacuum cleaner but take away point for calling it Vacuum Cleaner no Kata. Full marks for Vacumm Cleaner Dance or Form. As this is not in traditional Japanese ninjutsu. (That I know of, Hehehehe) this would be OK. I guess. From what I have seen training with you Yanks, y'all like your guns. Long arms and pistols. So, that should factor in heavy. Yes, it's in Budo also, but it should be treated differently by y'all. (I say that with Love in my voice and an longing for my FN back. I'm sooo jealous of y'all. No, I don't need an FN but....)

One other point, calling it "American Ninjustu" takes out the Nindo ryu, which is a traditional Puerto Rican Ninja style, Uh huh, and there's a goofy guy called Juan Hombre who's a spanish Ninja, a bunch of crackheads Down-under who believe theirs is a Singapura style of Ninjutsu, some Dr. in Italy who's sword work is amazing but his photos are really cool, and on and on the parade goes. So, this nonclemature of "American Ninjutsu" seems limiting. Do you WANT to include these nutbars or restrict them? Personnally, if I were training with some fraud I would not want to be associated with the above frauds. Truly.

Perhaps first defining Traditional Ninjutsu, (Good Luck), then define "American Ninjutsu using that as a datum.

So those are my thoughts intersperesed with some humour despite the late hour. Hope that it helps and if it doesn't, it inspires intelligent discourse.

2 short points (as I'm also supposed to be well, more unconcious than I am now.) :)

As much as I'd like to claim credit for polite writing, the charter as posted was writen by this forums moderator after a phone discussion we had a few days ago.

You've raised some valid points which I hope we can examine and resolve.


Oh, the "Traditional Definition" as we use in that forum is the strict verifiable Japanese lineage, currently tracing through Hatsumi. It is also open to future expansion based on new information.

Before I start, I'd like to say that I'm far from an authority on Ninjutsu. That being said, I'd like to have a pleasant discussion, rather than a flame war.

Regarding Hayes, Bussey, etc. and the term "American". I was under the impression that Bussey did spend time in Japan as well as doing some training with Hayes. It seems to me that the "American Ninjutsu" term was coined by Bussey when he came back to the states. Comparing his thoughts, beliefs, teachings, etc. to someone like Hayes, it seems that Bussey modified what he learned to better suit the person living in todays world, compared to what it was like in Japan back in the day.

It also seems that Hayes himself made some changes with what he teaches.

Mike

Bob or Mike,

Correct me here if I am wrong, but after months of going over this in the Moderators Forums and the Steering Forum, I want to respond:

I think one defining factor between the To-Shin So system is Hayes Shihan has spent some documentable time studying an authentic ninjutsu system. It is open to discussion how much ninjutsu he was taught and there can be still more discussion on how much he retained. But that is not up for debate per se. Rather the forum is to split off those "protesting" American/Neo/Modern Ninjitsu.

I feel safe saying Tew and Bussey have more knowledge of hair care products than ninjutsu.

So if you are looking for a delineating factor between True "American Ninjutsu" and posuers, I think verifiable, long term experience is needed. Otherwise you open the doors for any kid who's competent with a keyboard and camera to start his own "American Ninjutsu" style and this would just degrade the reputation of those who actually CAN make that claim. Once again, this is an issue on any forum, not just Ninjitsu. The "he said, she said," or "my instructor is better than yours" is common throughout all the arts. Respectfully, you are expressing an OPINION, and that will not get them or their student's opinions limited or removed from the new forum.

I think another delineating factor may be language and weapons. If they use Japanese and the traditional Ningu, Hanbo, Ken, tachi, yari et al or the other set of "traditional" weapons, Nunchucks, sai, tonfa, (teehee) then the art is trying to be traditional. If the "American Ninjutsu" art is trying to use non-traditional japanese weapons, say a vacuum cleaner, then there is an attempt for it to be non-traditional. Now that is plain silly! What you call a weapon will not decide which catagory you are in, or all the traditionalist who like to challenge Modern/American will be over there and the same old same old arguements continue. We are trying to get away from this and allow space for both parties to dialogue re: their own Arts, not challenge others. "MartialTalk - FRIENDLY DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MARTIAL ARTS" (it says it right on our logo).

One other point, calling it "American Ninjustu" takes out the Nindo ryu, which is a traditional Puerto Rican Ninja style, Uh huh, and there's a goofy guy called Juan Hombre who's a spanish Ninja, a bunch of crackheads Down-under who believe theirs is a Singapura style of Ninjutsu, some Dr. in Italy who's sword work is amazing but his photos are really cool, and on and on the parade goes. So, this nonclemature of "American Ninjutsu" seems limiting. Do you WANT to include these nutbars or restrict them? (NOTE: ... I left out the sarcasm in the last sentence). I actually think what you posted until then makes good sense and we need to be inclusive of that group ... if they are represented here on this board.

This is the Mod/Admin Teams attempt to reduce the amount of friction between the two forums. You would think having separate forums would have worked, but the outrageous alleged "fraud busting", or "you are stepping in my puddle" continues to give the Mods fits. I am ready to create a heavily moderated forum and lock any thread where one of the other's steps in ... but I was out voted so Bob is attempting to help resolve the issues with newly created forums and redefining the parameters. Give it a shot and post or PM Seig with suggestions, if they are serious and worth consideration.

In the meantime, try to play nice.

-Michael Billings
MT Super-Moderator

Bob or Mike,
Once again, this is an issue on any forum, not just Ninjitsu. The "he said, she said," or "my instructor is better than yours" is common throughout all the arts. Respectfully, you are expressing an OPINION, and that will not get them or their student's opinions limited or removed from the new forum.

If you are going to stick with the guidelines Kaith put up in his first post in this sticky, Tew and Bussey needs to go. Also, you need to do a check-up on what the term ninjutsu means. I'd say the most accurate version of American "ninjutsu" you can find is what CIA/NSA etc. are dealing with nowadays.

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.

Don't tell me you've never heard of things like Mu Te Jinen ryu Goshinjutsu, Brian McCarthy, Wayne L Roy's own style, Ryu San Ryu and the like (none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - never said there aren't any more Bujinkan offshoots though)?

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.i have to agree with that point.

if everyone would read this charter carefully you will see that there is room to grow. if the style was not founded by an american then i'm sure that general ninjutsu(in the japanese section) might be able to accomadate them.

the fact of the japanese folk stepping in here just to try and set the recored straight, is proof of what was causing all the original flame wars in the first place.

i plan to keep a close eye on every post that comes in here. if you should be posting in japanese ninjutsu... then thats where you should post.

thanks in advance for playing nice.

peace
-mt moderator-

(none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - then they should go with the japanese ninjutsu... i'm sure there is room over there. this is for "american" ninjutsu styles... hence the name. "AN".

its all on what the american founder claims. there could be an american shihan teaching buj,gen,jen... etc. they claim to teach ninjutsu as taught in japan. the schools currently aknowledged here are claiming to teach ninjutsu for the american people/culture.

peace

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training.
Tew and Bussey do not have this.

the schools currently aknowledged here are claiming to teach ninjutsu for the american people/culture.Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.mod note:
your attempts to "fraud bust" have no place here. you can find any information you need about tew and bussey's training using the search function on this site.

-mt moderator-

Perhaps first defining Traditional Ninjutsu, (Good Luck), then define "American Ninjutsu using that as a datum.
Well, the definition for American ninjutsu has been posted and possibly may be altered as this thing gets going. We should NOT have to define American Ninjutsu based on what Japanese tradition or practitioners have to say about it. They should worry about their own art!

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.
This is completely silly! This proves that some of the Japanese ninjutsu practitioners on MT are only out to cause problems with their elitist mentality. This was split do basically get away from all this mess. Why do they care what we do? Go back to your forum for gosh sakes!

Don't tell me you've never heard of things like Mu Te Jinen ryu Goshinjutsu, Brian McCarthy, Wayne L Roy's own style, Ryu San Ryu and the like (none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - never said there aren't any more Bujinkan offshoots though)?
If they do not have an American founder they don't belong here. How hard is that to understand?

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.
Nimravus, this forum doesn't concern you. Who has been considered as AN is an administration issue.

Poor choices of examples, I'll admit that. My point was that there are more Bujinkan offshoots than To Shin Do.

Yes, even in America.

This is completely silly! This proves that some of the Japanese ninjutsu practitioners on MT are only out to cause problems with their elitist mentality. This was split do basically get away from all this mess. Why do they care what we do? Go back to your forum for gosh sakes!
I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu.

I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu.
No, you practice Bujinkan Budo taijutsu and should be posting in the JN forum. I believe their charter is clear on that.

If you are going to stick with the guidelines Kaith put up in his first post in this sticky, Tew and Bussey needs to go. Also, you need to do a check-up on what the term ninjutsu means. I'd say the most accurate version of American "ninjutsu" you can find is what CIA/NSA etc. are dealing with nowadays.

IMO, Tew and Bussey belong in the AN section due to the fact that they do not follow the more traditional format of Ninjutsu.

Mike

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.

I disagree. If you look at Kaiths post, the very first paragraph describes what falls under the term "AN".

Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

Here is his first paragraph above.

In the final paragraph, he states this.


American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training.

That being said, in effect Bussey did learn from a Japanese instructor, but created his own way of teaching. An American teaching HIS blend of a Japanese art.

Mike

True Bussey did train with Hatsumi, he did make it to 4th dan. Though that has been explained to me as not being a "good" 4th dan it was still a ranking given by the Kan. He no longer claims to teach Ninjutsu, so sort of a moot point. If the contention too is that what you are learning is not Ninjutsu but BBT then why all this fuss. When I was a Bujinkan member it was being advertised as Ninjutsu, so call it what it is.
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.

I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politics

True Bussey did train with Hatsumi, he did make it to 4th dan. Though that has been explained to me as not being a "good" 4th dan it was still a ranking given by the Kan. He no longer claims to teach Ninjutsu, so sort of a moot point. If the contention too is that what you are learning is not Ninjutsu but BBT then why all this fuss. When I was a Bujinkan member it was being advertised as Ninjutsu, so call it what it is.
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.

I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politicsgood point and well said.:D

People, a few more minor points. I've got a migraine, so this won't be my normal "feel good" style.

1- A name was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
2 - A definition was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
3- A delination of accepted content was needed. Again, I used the one suggested by the moderator.

All -3- items can be reworded at a later time, provided that it can be done in a civil manner. If enough traffic is generated, I have no problem spinning off seperate forums for Hayes, Tew, etc. I would have set up seperate forums for each of the X-Kans however my understanding is that at least 1 of those groups prefers that you don't.

American Ninjutsu was selected over the other possible names as a starting point. It may change, it may not.

Now, Stop the sandbox pissing immediately or I'll toss -ALL- the damned ninja forums. You people are currently generating around 95% of the complaints and reports we are getting. This crap ends. Now.

Kaith, good way to end your post. I agree with you. A call was put out for for ideas and I think I gave you some. People whining about their guys lack of credintials or excess thereof is not condusive to moving this dsicussion forward.

I actually read your post and caught the part that said it's a working model. I posted some ideas. Twirling a vacuum cleaner around by an above mentioned Ninjer Soke is on the Internet. Posting facts is not fraud busting, unless the facts bust a fraud. Sorry about that.

I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha. That the Bujinkan is normally considered ninjutsu would be semantically incorrect. However, I think all agree that it is the Source of all the off-shoots, whether through trained students, "trained students" or inspiration for the wanna-bes.

I think if the Non-Bujinkan types spent some time defining who they are they could really make some headway into being accepted. It is this huge overarching tendancy amongst them to vast tracts of hyperbole that really gets the bile up on people who train in the other three traditions. You're forcing us to beleive your made up stories about Ninja Shaolin warrior gods? Really? Wow! I never knew...

As for being traditional, I don't believe the Bujinkan is traditional either. It is an accretion of nine koryu or old schools. Those are Traditional. Is the word Tradition the right one? How do we define Tradition? Is folding Sensei's hakima traditional after a class in light-saber jutsu or pistol disarms? Is bowing and scraping Traditional? So, perhaps before we define Ninjutsu we should get a good working definition of Traditional and the other words they want to use to define their arts and businesses. American should be a pretty easy one. What other words so we need? Weapons? Ninja? Ninjutsu, obviously. Verifiable? What's wrong with being an unverifiable Ninja-type school? Think the guys in Corranado have any propblems not being verified. Langley probably doesn't care where the skills come from. Anyone else want to offer up some words for intelligent discussion and definition?

Newt Gingrich oncee said, " A room full of ordinary people could out-think a genius." If the adults could come to your thread here Kaith we could figure some of this out. I have seen little of what I asked for in the last line of my first post on this subject. I hold out hope.

Kaith,

I think it is great the way it is. Let the Japanese art practitioners figure out what they want to do. I don't think anyone else that considers themselves American Ninjutsu is making the fuss. Why don't we leave it as is and see what happens. That way you and the administators can see where and who the real fuss is coming from.

This is already a big enough change obviously for some (don't know why). Leave it alone and see what's up.

On that last note, I just wanted to say I love ALL of you VERY much!!! :) I am honored to be one of SKH's students and I am honored to be able to discuss the differences that make us who we are. EVERYONE has a place here and we should appreciate what Kaith has set up for us. I respect ALL you fellow ninjutsu practitioners and I hope you have found some fullfillment no matter who has trained you. I respect all of them too especially since they could all kick my butt. LOL. Anyway, Kaith I hope we aren't the reason you are taking a vacation. Have fun anyway. I'll take some good points please...Thanx!!!:-partyon:

to all the "an'ers" out there...

enjoy this forum and post often. invite your friends so that everyone can enjoy the infinate knowledge of martial talk.

peace
-mt moderator-

I know this is a tad off-topic, but since it was mentioend...

I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha.

I don't believe this is true for two principal reasons:

1) Any dichotomy between "samurai" and "ninja" is, well, silly. The groups people identify as "ninja" (the Iga-shu and Koga-shu) were (usually) the samurai of their respective provinces.

2) The "six samurai/three ninja" equation is not very accurate, either. Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu all have overt connections to the "ninja".

See the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.

Laterz.

ISee the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.

Laterz.i agree... please see the "traditional ninjutsu" forum for more info.
-mt moderator-

Enjoy yourselves. And don't get hurt. The Japanese Buyu need figure nothing out in regards to credibility. That is the realm of the Fraud ninja ryu and the Authentic Koga ryuha and with one exception the American experience.

It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.

I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.

Robert

PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.

Enjoy yourselves. And don't get hurt. The Japanese Buyu need figure nothing out in regards to credibility. That is the realm of the Fraud ninja ryu and the Authentic Koga ryuha and with one exception the American experience.

It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.

I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.

Robert

PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.Say what? Did ANYONE understand what this guy is talking about? Maybe only the Buj guys can... perhaps I need to spend more time in the Traditional ninjutsu forum to be able to understand what he's talking about!:idunno:

kinda confused myself:idunno:.

OK if you're going to give me bad points, at least tell me why or at least just write something smart a** to make me laugh. Thanks!!!

Checking people's spelling in their posts is a little childish, especially when you spell words like 'miasma' incorrectly :)

I hope this forum generates what the mods hoped it would. I would hate to see it shut down (and the JN forum also) because I love reading, and occasionally participating, in these threads. I happen to loathe the term 'American Ninjutsu' for the same reason I hate Tae Kwan Do dojangs advertising themselves as Karate...but that doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun and exchanging good information.

What's wrong with 'Neo-Ninjutsu'?? :uhyeah:

I am a Bujinkan member, I practice Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu which includes authentic ninjutsu.

I do not practice (officially, or formerly) as part of an American Ninjitsu / Neo-Ninja / Hybrid MA / MMA / Etc. dojo.

However, I am an American. I do practice ninjutsu as part of the art-style that I study. I also incorporate principles of the above mentioned AN / N-N / HMA/ MMA styles that have evolved out of our country's exposure to Japanese ninjutsu and its influence on the world.

Am I allowed to post here?

I sense that some of us are trying to make enemies out of members of our "rival" MA organizations / styles. (re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space :p ).

We're all budoka here. We are not enemies. If we become enemies, we may battle eachother like the honorable (or not) warriors that we are (or may in fact not be).

Share information; please be honest with eachother and with yourselves.
Conflicts seem to arise often because people cannot agree on what is or is not real when it comes to discussing aspects of these arts. Fraud-busting and the like (re: Nimravus' posts) occur because people are blatently using terms incorectly, or are otherwise lying or misleading to the public - even accidentally. As long as people understand exactly what it is that they are doing and have a frame of reference based on what is factually known then they can make honest decisions with themselves. And carry on merrily.

<sigh>

Just wanted to say, let's not be afraid to talk to one another - regardless of style - we're not sharing secret ninja knowledge or anything, just talking about our training experiences as martial artists.

You may decide among yourselves if you want to have American Ninjitsu separate from general Neo-Ninjitsu. If you're already drawing lines in the sand, might as well have a lot of lines, right?

I(re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space :p ).Shizen Shigoku,

Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip! :)

I'll try to limit my posts from now on.

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be AN

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance
Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?

American Ninjutsu - .
JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool: ;)

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

No.

Is karate simply "Okinawan Boxing"?? Is wrestling simply "Western Jujutsu"?? Are Ainu hunters simply "Native American Japanese"??

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?
The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.

Right, right... :rolleyes:

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits."without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying :eek:

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool: ;)
Yes, and Ed Parker was a Hawaiian, so shouldn't his system be "Hawaiian Kenpo"?

Let me put this another way.

You are calling this section "American Ninjutsu".
But Ninja, Ninjutsu, etc are Japanese words.
There never were American Ninjas.
Show me 1 historical document that states otherwise.

Mr. Hayes does not teach Ninjutsu, he teaches To Shin Do.
What is To Shin Do?
"To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages. At the same time, our training program is built around a very modern approach to handling the kind of threats and confrontations most likely in our own contemporary culture."
From http://www.skhquest.com/training/ToShinDoDescription.aspx

"Today, I offer courses in the modern 21st Century ninjutsu application that I refer to as To-Shin Do, based on ninja principles but updated for the real threats of today."
From http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

Based on his own words, he is not teaching "Ninjutsu".

Regarding Mr. Tew, on his website he has the quote "As American as Apple Pie".
Unfortunately, it seems he doesn't understand what that really means. People believe Americans invented Apple Pie. Apple Pie was infact English. ""Thy breath is like the steame of apple-pyes," wrote Robert Greene in "Arcadia" in 1590."

Misspelling a few foriegn words, and borrowing concepts and techniques and tossing them into a blender does not an art make. Thousands of McDojos do that all the time, using similar words as his. What makes his system any different than theirs?
While he makes many valid points on his website, especially concerning BJJ/JJ, it still leaves the point of why call it NinjItsu, and not say, JKD, unanswered. Like JKD, his martial system is a combination of borrowed techniques and concepts, tossed in a blender and flavored with American Apple Pie.

What is to stop me, from doing the same and opening some schools, and calling it "Real American Ninjutsu."? If I did, and gave out some black belts, would I then have earned a spot here?

You can call me troll, and you can smack me as often as you like in the rep system. What you can not escape is the fact that you can not justify the use of a foriegn word for an American system. And, before anyone says "Well, he doesn't", I counted over 10 uses of the word "Ninja", "Ninjutsu" and "NinjItsu" on his home page alone. Oh, but thats not really it. His system is Rick Tew Martial Science. Right. That is why on his home page he makes a distinct seperation between RTMS and NinjItsu.
"Training Today's Ninja - Rick Tew's Martial Science and Tew Ryu Ninjitsu is your source for up to date total warrior information and training. 2 seperate items.

If the reason for havign a seperate area is so that the Americans can have their own variation, then you must include Ashida Kim and HaHa Lung as well. Both are also Americans, teaching Ninja.

Your line in the sand is weak.

Right, right... :rolleyes:
Good response. Can't refute the facts, resort to retort.

"without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying :eek:
Christian quotations don't apply to me, nor does the visions of Black Elk.

I will however return the quote, with a quote: "The more gross the fraud the more glibly will it go down, and the more greedily be swallowed, since folly will always find faith where impostors will find imprudence."

""If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of ninjutsu, devoid of the influences of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secret for becoming invincible -- the attainment of the 'mind and eyes of god'."" -- Takamatsu Toshitsugu

Of course, the later is that "Traditional" stuff you reject, right?

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Enson
-MT Moderator-

no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace
Actually it would be more like saying that the Marine corps infantry training is similar to Army infantry training. And the answer is yes, they are similar...in tools/goals/philosophy....but may differ in some specific details.

Again, I admit to a small amount of Ninjitsu knowledge, but a friend and student of Ninjutsu described the historical Ninja as the 'Japanes Medieval Special Forces' so I don't think that if you compare goals, tactics, intent, structure that it is too far a reach.

What was the purpose of the clan training? What topics were covered? What tools/weapons were they trained in? What command and control issues did they address?....and it goes on.

The biggest difference I can see is the scale because of the governmental structure. Modern CIA/Intel operators work for a nationalistic structure and not a clan structure, but the function and use of the training is essentially the same to me. What it has become in terms of hobby/commercial application is based on what went before, but - as with all commerical martial arts - has had all the 'meaningful stuff' condensed into the things that can be trained legally and responsibly for the day we live in when in the past the training was different.

I would argue they differ substantially, loki.

Different social structure, different cultural values, different level of technology and natural resources, different motivatons and goals, different political environment, so on and so on.

They are similar in the sense that they both specialize(d) in "unconventional warfare", but that's about it.

Bester, Dude. I feel your pain. However I suggest you leave the "Amercian Ninjer" types to their our devices. That they c annot see the obvious is because they do not want to see the obvious. They train in fraudulent systems. Period.

To the Gentleman who suggested the "American Ninjer" types try to catalogue the differences in their different marketing strategies, I have already tried to engage this crew in intelligent conversation but it didn't fly. Too bad it would be to the advantage os some of them to be able to say on the ANFS ( AMERICAN NINJER FRAUD SCALE) My school ranks a 5.9 on a scale of 10. This would be emprical though still somewhat subjective. It would take lots of work and thought. This is the wrong forum for it. This is the forum for Ninjer reach-arounds.

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from?

To the people who are giving me negative karma points. Please note that it doesn't affect me in my real life. My girlfreind still loves me, my cat still hangs out here, My son loves me, My teachers put up with me and my students haven't gone away. I am employed and making money. The Karma doesn't seem to be working on me. It only makes you feel better in this pathetic little world that means so much to y'all. Cool. If you had any man parts of signififgance you would leave your name each time you drill me for karma. Don't worry I won't drill you back, it doesn't matter in real life.

Robert

What is the difference between American Ninjutsu and Modern Ninjutsu?

If is is a western version of a Japanese system, would the terminology be written in English, much like American Kenpo (I hold a 2nd Degree Black Belt)?
Also I believe at one time it was called Hawaiin Kenpo, then it became American Kenpo. Also isn't the term Ninjitsu incorrect? To be a true system of Ninjutsu shouldn't the founder have a recognised background in the traditional system i.e Bujinkan under Hatsumi Soke? What makes a true off shoot system in the first place?

Sorry this debate has me enthralled...my brain is working way too hard on a Friday afternoon.

Later
Patrick

Alot of that's been covered in the Japanese section already...long reading, I'll sumarize for ya.

Some of those in the Modern/American did train in legitimate ninjutsu. They then added their own improvements and modernizations, some cultural, others egotistical.

Others trained under fakers, realized the fraud and tried to legitimatize their own work to correct the failings of their teacher.

Others are flat out frauds, in it for the money alone, and unable to defeat wet peat moss without cheating like a WWE champion.

Ninjitsu is either not a real word, ot means something totally different.

Legitimate Ninjutsu with verifiable lineages traces back to Hatsumi.

Be careful in the AN forum as some are sensitive when you point certain truths out.
Other folks welcome new information and have open minds and empty cups.

Shizen Shigoku,

Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip! :)

I'll try to limit my posts from now on.This not an official warning, just a nudge. Posting merely to increase your belt rank is against MT rules. That is why the Bar and Grill was created, to discourage such tactics. If it becomes apparent a member is doing something to circumvent this rule, their posts will be culled and or combined and disciplinary measures will be taken.

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.

If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must. But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way? We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?). What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this. Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.

At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.Correction: American "Ninjutsu" forum and not American "Ninja." There is a big difference. The second one never existed. The first one is Kraith's invention to start us on the right track.

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from? Robertmoko/robert... as you might see i have started many threads since the time i joined martial talk. not for any specific answers but to generate dialogue on mt... so youngins like yourself would have a place to post. you might also take notice on the dates of every thread. not many recent questions have been asked on your side of the fence by myself. maybe a passing mod. can confirm this for me. your continueing dead end arguement has been going on long before you found this forum on your yahoo search engine.
if a traditionalist would post here... without obvious agendas (such as yourself) we would have no problem with it. now the real question is why would you take the time to "troll" our side of the fence if you are so fulfilled on the traditional side? grass is greener maybe?:idunno: your obvious insecurities are oozing.:eek:
I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. i personally think you should do it. i encourage it with the upmost vigor. please? i hold andrew, gmunoz, and the other "yes ninjers". to the highest esteem. they are good people and should be respected. i would stand by them anyday then have to be in an organization where racism and elitism is practiced by so many. if that is what traditional ninjutsu is about i'm glad i study "an". maybe michael pearce should get on again and scold the "trolls" for making the trad. ninjers look bad?

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be ANThen what do we do about all the Ninjitsu schools out there that decided to drop the word Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu but teach Ninjitsu none the less to a certain degree and don't want to be included in these arguements? Why not try this: Only have a Ninjutsu forum for those schools that teach 100% Ninjutsu or 100% Ninjitsu? No mixing of any other artform is allowed. No Samurai, Kenjutsu, Kenpo, Kung Fu. If its not 100%, it doesn't belong in either forum. I'd like to see who then qualifies. Think maybe Kaith got it right when he mentions that maybe its time to just drop ALL Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Forums. No one seems to know what it is anyway.

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… :rolleyes: …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.

Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must.Despite my reputation, I'd rather not. But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way?Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult. We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?).It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed. What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this.The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue. Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you. I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig

I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.The Sniping Policy

Effective 9/21/04

Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.Found Here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

For the record your suspension was for two weeks because it was the second time you were suspended.

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… :rolleyes: …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.
"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.

"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.



That is pricless :rofl:
I was thinking maybe "top with a sour grape".......

Ok, joke that some will get, and others simply be pissed about aside.


My problem with this forum is it seems to cater only to a select, elitist few. You can not ask certain questions because that is "bashing". Other questions when asked you are told to "go search", rudely. Anyone who has any real traditional training or experience is told to "Go Away".

How does this censorship help?

There are enough quality martial arts instructors excluded by this forum as included.

What is American Ninjutsu?
You limit the scope to 3 people. 2 with questionable backgrounds, though we are not allowed to ask those questions without moderator abuse of power and tag teaming.
What about all those others who lie just outside the line?
If we have American Ninjutsu, do we have English Ninjutsu? African Ninjutsu? etc?

"Stop being a TROLL!!!" is all I hear.
Well, I am asking questions. If that is trolling, then shut the damn board down already.

If the world insists that the art you study is crap, and everywhere you go you hear the same comments about its origins being fraudulent, maybe, just maybe, you might want to take the fingers out of your ears and listen?

I ask questions. I make comments. You can react, or respond.
Why is it that whenever I ask questions in here, the moderator and his tag team partner there get defensive, react negatively and keep ordering me to leave?

I have questions on Hayes. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed to post them in the wrong forum?

I have questions on Tew. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed not only not post them, but to leave unless I am a student of his?

Why all the fear of simple questions?
Why the inability to respond to them politely?
Why the accusations of agendas, trolling, etc?
Why is the scope of this forum so narrowly defined?

I will probable not be around to see any replies. I'm sure I'll be seeing a vacation shortly for daring to ask questions in this forum.

Despite my reputation, I'd rather not.Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult.It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed. The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue. I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.
The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig
Good enough. I will report any and all suspicious posts from traditionalists as bad posts and pray to God someone does something about it. I sure hope you keep your end of the bargain.

Can we please get back to the topic here?

Here Comes Krystal Nacht as sponsored by the "American Ninjer" wanna-bes. What a giggle.

Enson, Thanks for your wonderful attempt to educate a younin(sic) like me. While the sentiment may be true your facts are grossly incorrect. This forum has been instigated not to research your 'style' but to support and validate your 'style'.

All of your little arguments to date are subjective. Everyone posting in here is subjected to a two-part questioning process; Does this person train in a fraudulent art as support by our little cabal or do they train in a verifiable system; and Are they saying nice things about us or asking questions? A negative answer to both parts of the questions and the you let slip your intellectual chihuahuas of sniping and dispersions. Truly fearsome.

Instead any attempt to quantify they various skill levels of the various wanna-be sokes goes down in a flurry of posts calling for a martial cleansing. Nice. Brown is your favourite shirt colour?

Not there is anything wrong with this NOT being a place where Ninjutsu is discussed, there is nothing wrong with this being a comfort zone for you. It's OK to have a blankie. But if this is the unworded aim of this "American Ninjutsu" ( And Snowjob take note of how the American Ninjers types spell the name of HamandCheeses "art") forum then your mission statement or vision at the beginning of it should be changed, Enson.

I do think that it is incorrect and you have misled Kaith with your agenda for this forum. I have attempted to start an intellectual discussion of the various level of claims of the myriad of ninjer Sokey-Dokeys out there but am met with yapping of the upmost(sic) ineffectiness.

And now one of the Chihuahua brothers wants to report every post. Oh Gawd that's hilarious. Let me guess, leibensraum? uh huh.

Re-check your own agenda Enson then come back when you can be more subjective about this whole thing. You are too close to it to be objective. Nor would I go about shaking your little finger at people and saying they have an agenda.

I am an ignorant man. There's tons I don't know and would love to. I have a buddy who's a robotics prof. Damn. Cool. I am utterly ignorant of robotics. The definition of ignorant is " 1 having or showing a lack of knowledge or of education in things in general. 2 uninformed about or unaware of a specific subject 3 lacking social training." The Penguin English dictionary.

Now flip on over to the Cross-stepping thread. There you are asking about cross-stepping. Then pages of uses and how it is a valid technique in many arts, because, well it is. And yet you go on to argue for pages with all the other people there how he, Enson, doesn't think it's valid as it's not in his system. No agenda there right?

Personally I think your little sensei-boy will come out OK if we do a public ranking on his claims. I think he has some training years ago in Budo, what would now be called dated or Jurriasic training by us with "real agendas" bwahahaha. He would certainly beat out types like Ferbes and Dux and Duncan in turn his claim is not as strong as Hayes shihan or possibly Bussey. Bottom of the list would be ninja clowns like Ashida Kim, those guys in Australia and buddy who trains in the "swampest places". Would it come out that Tew's, style is a fraudulent style of ninjutsu, sure. You already now this Enson but refuse to believe it. His style of dance is your comfort zone. This forum is not about growth, or learning, it's about what feels good to you. It feels good to tell the guys who do not train in what you want to train in that they are wrong. Good for you. Seems like sort of a closed mind to me.

Carry on as if you were normal.

If anyone else wants to start thread in the Traditional section whereby we can discuss the various scoring points for the frauds and maybe set up a group of objective critiera with which to measure them all by, I would fully support it. I have put some thought into it ealrier on in this thread, thinking it was called for however this is the wrong place for objective intellectual intercourse.

Well said Moko. Well said indeed.


Now, gmuñoz we can go back to discussing the parameters for this area, those that have been excluded, and those that have been somehow granted "legitimacy" OR we can go back to your personal vendetta against me, and anyone who does not wish to accept things without question.

I thought this thread was to discuss the charter for this section, not to play out you and your tag-team partners personal issues and problems.

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal. :rolleyes:

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal. :rolleyes:


Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.

All this is from Rick Tew’s website:

POINTS OF REALITY
Too often in the martial arts, students learn self-defense that is unrealistic and possibly detrimental to the defender. When it comes to practicality, fight with facts, don't be fooled by your training.
1)Most fights end up on the ground.
Prepare by improving your grappling skills.
2)There are no rules and no judges in combat.
If it works, use it, and don't stop until it does.
3)Kicks above the waist are unrealistic.
It is better to be safe than sorry.
4)How you train is how you will fight.
If it is not contact you will be surprised.
5)Point sparring is not realistic for true combat.
Pull your punches and pull your chances.
6)Most people punch to the face or head.
Get used to hooks and crosses, wild and fast.
7)Attackers don't hold their punch in the air.
Learn to control your opponent, not dance around a frozen one.
8)Everything is forgotten in a fight.
All defenses will be natural reactions from years of practice.
9)Punches and kicks can hurt you too.
The attacker might also be prepared, do not underestimate an opponent.
10)Most punches and kicks are off target, thus useless.
Don't waste energy, focus on primary striking areas.

1) This is some PR the Gracies came up with years ago. I have yet to see any stats on it to prove it one way or the other. From my own personal experiences and from seeing other fights I would say that figure is false.
2) No s****, now tell us something we don’t know.
3) Funny I saw Rick Tew do not one but damn near all of his kicks to the head on his training videos. Specifically tape #2 & #4....especially #4!!!! In video #4 the kicks looked like they came straight out of a Tae Kwan Do Class 101 manual, mostly to the head and many high spinning back kicks, with one or two Muay Thai knee strikes thrown in and some hand movements that can be seen in ½ dozen different MA.
4) 4,5,6,7…..common sense.
8) I beg to differ.
9) :rolleyes: still not very enlightening.
10) Most people swing in a fit of rage….maybe that is a contributing factor.

So would you say Rick Tew is a good representation of what American Ninjutsu is?

Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.
The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?

Now, gmuñoz we can go back to discussing the parameters for this area,
The parameters have already been set Bester. Please refer to the charter.

The parameters have already been set Bester. Please refer to the charter.
No, they have not.

Kaith said "If the posted charter is inadequate, we are open to modification. Please use this thread to discuss and debate those modifications."

I believe the charter is inadequate as it excludes qualified non-Japanese, while including un-qualified pretenders.

You stated: The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?

What is Legitimate Ninjutsu Training?
You must disqualify any lineage tracing to Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or HaHa Lung. They are proven frauds.



I have been trying to discuss and debate.
YOU have been attacking me for disagreeing with you.

I ask again. Are you able to cease your personal vendetta against me and engage in a polite discussion of the charter for this forum?

You stated:
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?

What is Legitimate Ninjutsu Training?
You must disqualify any lineage tracing to Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or HaHa Lung. They are proven frauds.?in one word... "yes". can't you read?:rolleyes:

ashida kim, frank dux, ha ha lung all claim to do things as done in japan. take your ignorant arguement somewhere else.
none of the frauds claim to do things for the american culture.

What

Is

Legitimate

Ninja

Training?

3) Funny I saw Rick Tew do not one but damn near all of his kicks to the head on his training videos. Specifically tape #2 & #4....especially #4!!!! In video #4 the kicks looked like they came straight out of a Tae Kwan Do Class 101 manual, mostly to the head and many high spinning back kicks, with one or two Muay Thai knee strikes thrown in and some hand movements that can be seen in ½ dozen different MA.
?like mr. miyagi?:rolleyes:

Hey! Miyagi is Japanese. He not arrowed here.

What

Is

Legitimate

Ninja

Training?Bester, what's up man? Seems to me that perhaps some people have become offended, and don't want to co-operate. However, from the staff discussions that I have been privy to, my understanding is thus:

Legitimate ninjutsu training would be having trained either beneath Hatsumi, or someone else that he has qualified to teach. As you may well know, there are a few folks who's arts have evolved down their own paths, and are either excommunicated from the organisation, or no longer teach the pure art of budo taijutsu, rather, they have integrated other concepts from other sources. So they may have developed a method that is flavoured as ninjutsu, but is not pure.

Please bear in mind, this is just from stuff that I have followed in various places around here. I have no specific ninjutsu training, though my instructor does have his bb. I am uncertain as to the specific lineage, but I believe it to be Bujinkan.

Hope I was helpful, folks. :asian:

Just to add, I don't believe this forum is intended to really be exclusive to US organisations, and is a work in progress.

Just to add, I don't believe this forum is intended to really be exclusive to US organisations, and is a work in progress.thats exaclty right.

So why am I receiving so much grief when I am doing exactly what the administrator said to do?

You stated:
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?If you are an American and show legitimate ninjutsu training that can be traced back to Japanese lineage, and claim not to do things as in Japan but in America, then YES, you can submit to be listed on this forum.

THat is what the charter is meaning. How difficult is this? If one claims to do things as done in Japan then they need to submit to the Japanese Ninjutsu forum, ie., Ralph Severe Kamiyama and his system. He stipulates he does things as in Japan. He should be in JN.

So why am I receiving so much grief when I am doing exactly what the administrator said to do?Bester, bear in mind that these guys were the focus of constant persecution whilst in the Japanese section. It is not surprising to me that they are seeing attack more often than necessary, and perhaps the agressive nature of questioning is reinforcing that perception now.

I'm not criticizing you here, Bester. Just articulating my take. I could be wrong, or crazy. Or both, or neither. Take your pick.

:asian:

like mr. miyagi?:rolleyes:

Sorry, don't follow your meaning. Can you explain?

Gentlemen, please, enough. The various issues and complaints from all sides are under discussion by the admins and supermods. Due to the large number of complaints, please give us a few days to properly process them.

Please refer to the warning now stickied on this forum.
No more flaming or other abuse will be tollerated.

Bester, Dude. Good luck. There is an agenda here at work with a little cabal of kids who want this to be a place where the specious claims of their Sokey Dokeys are considered legitimate. They bring this on themselves.

If the original three "American Ninjutsu" ryuha or schools I guess, are "verified, please show work. ie show us where Hayes shihan has trained, with whom, when, for how long, rank achieved, teachers lineage. This should not be a problem. Then show the work for Tew and Bussey. Opps! Look a personal attack! I'm asking a hard question. Bwahahahhaha.

The original charter reads as such:

Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."

This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction."

End quote.

Things to note. It seems whoever wrote the charter included people who trained in Japan. There goes Tew. (Opps, another personal attack.) It is my understanding Tew has not been to Japan. No need he wouldn't learn anything there, I'll bet. Twenty years ago Tew would be 10? 15? Cool. Bussey was there and if the guys do their due diligence as per their rules they will find the info on his experience out there. I have it here at home, too.

This is the line that is providing lots of grist for the "personal attacks".

"The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above"

Really? Show work. Until then none of the schools qualify. Deal with it. Life is rough and if you link up with losers who can't finght their own fights you get to lose for them. Show work.
Now I can just hear the kids crying, "Please help."
Someone else will say, "Well who are you to ask that we prove what we are?" No one, dude. But if you hang it out there you better be able to deal with the pain when people stick things in it to see if it's real.
So, what I would suggest for the people who are interested in a mature discussion, which looks like the stubble jumper dude and the P10 guy is we could start trying to set the criteria for the kids. Both Gmunoz and Enson are affiliated with two of the schools in question and once the grown-ups have figuered out the OBJECTIVE (Look it up!) questions and criteria they can do the home-work and leg work
Now here's the neat part, they could then apply it to other schools and we would have a scale of fraudiness (Word?) Then give it a name like the Knowledge-based Ninjutsu Objective Barometer. Each school will then earn a score on the KNOB scale. How cool would that be?

Robert

PS Enson, the bit about american culture is not where you want to go with an International readership.

That is pricless :rofl:
I was thinking maybe "top with a sour grape".......

Check this out......a "negative ding" from Enoson the "Mod" for my post above

your not smart are you? -enson

and one from a side kick of his no doubt.....

You're an idiot

So ENSON, I am an idiot am I?
Fine, send me an email and explain why you think so.

The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?


That's all fine and well but what my question was how are they different technically?
For example……I looked at Rick Tew’s home instruction demo video #2 with him twirling those “num-chucks” around like something that came out of a cheap movie and I just can’t imagine folks at the Bujinkan doing something like that, especially since it is an Okinawan weapon.
This is the kind of thing that I am wanting to understand about how they differ........seem what I mean? Things like RTMS does spinning back kicks, American Ninjas do XXXXXXXX, Japanese Ninjas do XXXXXX......stuff like that.

Thread locked for administrative review.

-Michael Billings
MT S-Mod

After reviewing this thread, I am reopening it. Two members have been suspended already. I am adding a third. Moko for violation of the sniping policy,

If I might interject a couple of simple thoughts:

The original "Charter" is fatally flawed in that it actually eliminates every neo-ninjitsu ryu ha. The introductory sentence (regarding the "root") is actually untrue. The remainder of the introductory paragraph is also untrue. Sounds good - just not true. Allow me to present a train of thought administration might consider:

*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";
*Ninjutsu (by definition expressed by Hatsumi Sensei) is the study of the arts dealing with how the Japanese Ninja accomplished their accomplishments. Thus, Ninjutsu is concerned with the Japanese Ninja and is enveloped within the age of the living Ninja. Anything having to do with post-Ninja era warfare would Not be a concern with Ninjutsu by Hatsumi's own definition. Thus, the study of the use of automatic firearms would not be a concern or included in Traditional Ninjutsu as automatic firearms were not inclusive the study of the Japanese Ninja's ways of accomplishments during their (the Ninja/Shinobi) era of existance. Another example would be modern aircraft, computerized techniques etc.;
*If a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu Ryu started to include modern sciences or evolved outside of the traditional study of the way of the Ninja, that traditional schools would lose its traditionalism and actually become a "Neo" school;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools, on the otherhand, would cover a time period from circa 300 BC to the present thus covering the time periods before, during and after the age of the Japanese Ninja;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools are not limited by any definitions or other parameters defined within Traditionalism. Neo-Ninjitsu does not possess a requirement of any Japanese ties as its "roots" but to first, Sun Tzu. The term "Ninjitsu" is not found in many styles and schools that we would consider Ninjitsu schools not because of any resemblence to any physical nature of the Ninja, but they are to be considered Ninjitsu in that these schools do rely heavily on such skills as stealth, invisibility, deception, subterfuge, clandestine fighting and other terms originating from the Art of War and accepted by both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu philosophy. Also embedded within both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu are the philosophies of Spirit, Mind and Body. These three catagories were not inventions of the Japanese Ryu but were accepted by the Japanese and other non-japanese schools. Neo schools accept these conventions as originating from a pre-Ninja warring state's era.
*A Non-Japanese Founder of a martial arts school has every right to use the term Ninjitsu as these Founders are not expressing any ties to Japan, but ties to the philosophy of warfare expressed and established by those practicing the Art of War. The concentration of these schools is in that of total warfare. How to defeat ANY existing system of warfare or we might say: the study of how ANYONE today accomplishes winning. Not like the definition of Ninjutsu which specifies how the Ninja accomplished in Japan, but Neo's are concerned how ANYONE and EVERYONE is, are was, able to "accomplish."

I will admit that it is unfortunate that the term "Ninjitsu" was adopted by the Neo Schools and this adoption did cause tremendous confusion not only due to it's romanized spelling (which actually does infer that there is a difference in the two schools) but also because one can easily also infer some type of Japanese discipline. But, as anyone can see today, the term is being used in a much diminished capacity in todays schools. I can foresee that, within a short time period, few Neo-Ninjitsu schools will no longer use the term and will instead adopt such terms a "Martial Science" schools or these schools will simply drop any monikers as in Mr. Bussy's schools or Dux Ryu.

Nothing I have expressed above should be considered any absolute truth by any standard but is expressed hopefully to assist the administration in establishing this section of their forum. Right of wrong, hopefully it will be food for thought.

This is the kind of thing that I am wanting to understand about how they differ........seem what I mean? Things like RTMS does spinning back kicks, American Ninjas do XXXXXXXX, Japanese Ninjas do XXXXXX......stuff like that.Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.
I disagree with this. It implies that traditionalists are unable to deal with modern situations.

Jeff

I disagree with this. It implies that traditionalists are unable to deal with modern situations.

Jeffi don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

peace

Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

I see......so does this mean you train with modern weapons like an AK-47 and things along those lines?

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

Again...your wording gives the assumption (incorrectly) that the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan do not.

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

peace


So having said that.....what kind of modern weapons and tactics are you training/in with?

Hrmmm..... I'm surprised that no one has addressed the spewage that was sojobow's last post. :rolleyes:

That's because there comes a time when you look at a post and know there's just too much typing involved to be worth it.

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today.

But the same thing can be said about the groups centered in Japan. Hatsumi has a book out on knife and pistol fighting, Tanemura has a video on how to use collapsing batons, etc.

Right now we have a thread in the forum devoted to arts centered in Japan on knife fighting. A troublemaker stepped in and said that the subject was not appropriate to the "Traditional Ninjutsu" section. This despite the fact that the description listed says that the forum is about arts found in Japan, and no mention of having to deal ONLY with old style stuff.

If the title of this forum is "modern", then no matter how many disclaimers and notices you give, I think that people will be unwilling to talk about pistols in the traditional section and swordsmanship here.

Valid concerns, and one which we can hopefully address as appropriate. My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.

I also understand that the "moderns" study some of the traditional weapons, and in many cases work in the tweaks to deal with the modern variants.

I don't see a vast difference in the end-result, just how you get there.

My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.
Adapting sword retention techniques to pistol retention is a good example of this.

Jeff

I see......so does this mean you train with modern weapons like an AK-47 and things along those lines? what i'm trying to make clear is there is allowances for new weapons. whatever the instructors in each school feel they want to integrate. not just say, "the ninja never used it so either will we"... i.e. tonfa, nunchuku, ninja to etc. each school is different so there might very well be some schools that teach ak-47 or how to fly a fighter jet. ours doesn't because those planes are darn expensive. hope this helps.
imo the bujinkan don't count as a ninjutsu school because from what i have read here, they only have a few kata that teach ninjutsu. also hatsumi is the founder of his style so he can integrate whatever he wants to... this just isn't the place to discuss hatsumi and the bujinkan.

peace

imo the bujinkan don't count as a ninjutsu school because from what i have read here, they only have a few kata that teach ninjutsu.

So, how many kata do you guys have that teach "ninjutsu"?? ;)

So, how many kata do you guys have that teach "ninjutsu"?? ;)"American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society."
this is from the charter. hope this helps.

Gee, that doesn't sound like Budo Taijutsu at all. Nope, nope, nope. :rolleyes:

Hrmmm..... I'm surprised that no one has addressed the spewage that was sojobow's last post. :rolleyes:Perhaps is it because some truth was within the post whether one admits it or not? The post was an attempt to open honest dialogue from another point of view.

Here is my first highlight statement: If its true, NASA, we have a problem as Kaith's opening would reveal some real logistical flaws. The greater problem is that its seems we constantly must have other's not Neo define what a Modern/Neo constitutes. Who is representing the Neo at these conventions on Ninjitsu? I do hope they have an open mind and leave their pre-conceived notions at the meeting room door.

First Statement: "*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";"

in one word... "yes". can't you read?:rolleyes:

ashida kim, frank dux, ha ha lung all claim to do things as done in japan. take your ignorant arguement somewhere else.
none of the frauds claim to do things for the american culture.This is blatantly false and, besides being counter-productive to this very important thread, is also counter-productive to what we all hope you grow to achieve here. We're all pulling for your success.

This is blatantly false and, besides being counter-productive to this very important thread, is also counter-productive to what we all hope you grow to achieve here. We're all pulling for your success.according to the charter this would not be false. it all depends on what is claimed. if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones "currently" (this means there can be additions)accepted are ones claiming to do things for the american culture.

*note* thanks for pulling for me!;)

if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section.
Except nowhere in the charter for that section does it make allowances for lineage claimed through a James Bond character, so he won't be joining us... ;)

Jeff

Except nowhere in the charter for that section does it make allowances for lineage claimed through a James Bond character, so he won't be joining us... ;)

Jefflol lol! :rofl:

Perhaps is it because some truth was within the post whether one admits it or not?

Or, perhaps you were presenting the point-of-view of your school and trying to pass it off as applying to all American ninjutsu.

First Statement: "*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";"

First off, none of the groups being represented here are a "ryuha".

Secondly, the "roots" of all the arts covered here are either in the Takamatsu-den or other modern martial arts schools. None of these guys just cracked open Sun Tzu one day, and decided to make up a martial art based on it. They learned their stuff from other, contemporary sources.

Of course, what is more than likely is that they are using a superficial translation of Sun Tzu to fabricate some false claim of authority. Which, frankly, is what seems to be going on here. But, the catcher is that this claim for authority is retroactive --- i.e., Sun Tzu "wisdom" is applied as a "source" for the art after the art has already been created from other sources.

Ta ta.

according to the charter this would not be false. it all depends on what is claimed. if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones "currently" (this means there can be additions)accepted are ones claiming to do things for the american culture.

*note* thanks for pulling for me!;)Another blatantly false statement: .......... if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones .......". Remember, I train daily and know what is said or not said. I am physically in the theatre in which you claim some knowledge of verbal and or physical truths. You are not. There is no record of our being or doing anything "as done in japan" that I am aware of. As I stated before, your type of statements do nothing to assist us in assisting Kaith. An yes, according to the charter (which is not written or codified in any stoneworks), quite a few of the "this's" would not be false. However, as stated, my contention is that the charter is itself flawed such that anyone using it will temperarily be justified in their juxtapositions until the charter is correct/amended. At that time, any current blatantly false statements have no use. And again, we are pulling for your success here. Continuation of 2nd, 3rd, 4th...hand opinions do nothing towards that success.

Hope the little one is well.

Valid concerns, and one which we can hopefully address as appropriate. My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.....I don't see a vast difference in the end-result, just how you get there.Well said, however, if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja. If the current practice includes anything not covered in the time period and locations of the living Ninja, then those practices are not by definition - Ninjutsu but are then associated with some modern hybrid. I don't want to infer that these extra-curricular activities are good or bad - only that they are not any type of classical japanese artform.

The end result is not in question. The question is differentiating Ninjutsu and Neo.

if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja.

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.I've already presented this information. I have not seen your request so I had no reason to provide it to you. A few of your school members even responded that the Book reference may have been incorrect and they provided what they thought was the correct Hatsumi Sensei Book. For your files, I will provide it again for the benefit of other readers of this thread since they should know what Hatsumi's own definition of Ninjutsu is. One would think his own students would already know this. Give me a few minutes to relocate it again. As Gov. Arnold said: "I'll be bock."

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.I'm back. Tried to use the quote function correctly this time.

Here is the exact quote, per your request. I also took the liberty to use the quote injected into a search engine and found another source which I will provide since, it seems, that Hatsumi Sensei and I are not to be believed. I added the bold typefaces and not the text.

The Quote:

"As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

Thus, according to the above, Ninjutsu is the study of the ways of accomplishments of the Ninja. To put it another way: "how the Ninja did what they did" - bad English and all.

The Source:

Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi: The Historical Ninja
Secondary Source: Bujinkan South Africa: http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

While reviewing the History of Ninjutsu webpage, I also hope that readers will also note the following quote taken directly from the page. Although I was given at least 20 negative red points as well as a name change to "Bonehead," here is the highest ranking member of the Bujinkan expressing the same statements as inherited from his own teacher as I have inherited from mine:

"Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T’ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor’s court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled."

So it seems that my multiple sources thus far are Dr. Hatsumi, Dr. Hatsumi's Teacher, my Hanshi. Everything I have presented to this Forum have like sources.

Thus, to belabor my point regarding the "root" portion of the Charter for this section:

""Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. ...." (Kaith Rustaz)

I maintain that this statement is incorrect as proven by Dr. Hatsumi's statement above and should be corrected to state that the "roots are founded in rich Chinese tradition, history, and culture...."

Also, this would remove the constraint of American Ninjutsu (Modern Ninjitsu) having schools that have to "qualify" utilizing some "Japanese" legitimizations. I would also believe that anyone in the United States Military and anyone outside of Japan would be welcomed here - and qualify to enter their school in this section - as long as that entity believes and practices the philosohies related to Spirit, Mind and Body. Spirit, Mind and Body should be the only pre-requisits as a school of Modern Ninjitsu (or whatever the Administration decides to label this section/subsection).

Just my own opinion.

........ But, the catcher is that this claim for authority is retroactive --- i.e., Sun Tzu "wisdom" is applied as a "source" for the art after the art has already been created from other sources. .Ta ta.Although there were many "Sun Tzu's; Sun Wu's" etc, this statement I find extremely interesting. Please be so kind as to further elaborate on this statement. Especially the portion "the art after the art has already been created from other sources." Hopefully, your reply will not be considered off - topic. It is too interesting a concept and needs a response. thanx.

"As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

Thus, according to the above, Ninjutsu is the study of the ways of accomplishments of the Ninja. To put it another way: "how the Ninja did what they did" - bad English and all.

Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle.... :rolleyes:

Although there were many "Sun Tzu's; Sun Wu's" etc, this statement I find extremely interesting. Please be so kind as to further elaborate on this statement. Especially the portion "the art after the art has already been created from other sources." Hopefully, your reply will not be considered off - topic. It is too interesting a concept and needs a response. thanx.

What's to elaborate??

Most of the "neo" groups weren't inspired by the Art of War to create their own distinctive style of "ninjutsu". They simply studied contemporary martial arts available today, and based their own style off of that.

Retroactively projecting the Art of War into your style's founding doesn't change that.

Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle.... :rolleyes:

Not to mention, the source cited by sojobow was actually "ghostwritten" by Stephen Hayes. ;)

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MT Moderator-

I would have to say I agree with Heretic, I can't say that anything I or any other indie was due to reading the art of war.

This thread is getting pretty confusing.

I think it pretty safe that most of the American Ninjutsu founders based their principle training beliefs on those that they had learned or were inspired by the Japanese systems. For some reason or another didn't like the way it was being run, how it was being taught or some other reason broke off to do it themselves. Orrr trained in a form of self defence they saw as being closely related to the philisophical/physical training Ninja ideals and called it Ninjutsu. Its late I'm tired so I am sorry if that sounded very scatterbrained. Don I am sure you'll correct me LOL.

These are my thoughts on this matter. I have taken a long time to figure out what I wanted to say , so this is only MHO on the matter.
If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.
If the person has made up a system based on what he has only read, seen in movies, or heard was taught then that person should call what he teaches something else.
Claiming that you teach something without ever haveing studied it is wrong. KNowing that something exsists and useing that name to promote yourslef is wrong. Teaching something you THINK resembles something else and useing their name is wrong
My thoughts only

If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.

Ah, but how long would they have to study under a teacher in the kans and/or what level would they have to reach to qualify? Are we talking about someone like Stephen Hayes- who studied in the Bujinkan for years and reached tenth dan, or are we talking about someone who has been to a single seminar by a low ranked Bujinkan instructor? Where do we draw the line?

I have known people who have done the bare minimum to try to justify their use of the ninjutsu name. One group was started by a guy that originally claimed to study under a bogus "Koga" system. After he started his system he found out that there is no legitimate Koga ryu in North America- so he took a total of two seminars with someone claiming to teach Bujinkan. When it was proved that this guy was merely using the name Bujinkan (after a lot of screaming and charges of a cover up by Hatsumi) this guy joins the Genbukan for about a year before getting out. Mind you, his joining a legitimate system that is found in Japan was a full two decades after he started his own system of modern ninjutsu. His is not an isolated case with many people taking video black belt courses to justify using the name. Do they count?

And what about the people that study under a person who starts their own martial art? Do they count too? As you can see, this is getting complicated, but these questions will come up. Toshindo really is not ninjutsu and uses a different name. Same with Bussey's RBWI or Severe's Art of Combat. So, if someone gets a video black belt from Hayes, can they be counted as legitimate if they start their own Ameircan ninjutsu style? These people do not bother to show up to Japan to train with people who are the head of ninjutsu orginizations, but instead seem to do the bare minimum to justify the use of the name.

If we are going to qualify Hayes (who most of us feel is qualified to do what he did) but not the guy who took a single seminar with the local Bujinkan dojo, we had better be able to say why and point to some objective standard.

Oh yeah, this is getting complicated. We are not talking about definitions, but rather standards. And we need to choose who sets them and justify them. And we know that whatever we choose, there will be those that whine and complain at being left out.

I think there needs to be a section like this where people can talk about how their style of ninjutsu uses nunchaku like Rick Tew does and not get grief from the guys in Japan. It is a matter of fact, not opinion, that the ninja did not use nunchaku and no one in Japan teaching ninjutsu uses them. But whether a modern style using them is in the spirit of ninjutsu or not is purely opinion.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the problems we seem to be facing is by setting a type of exclusivity about this section, instead of opening up to more points of view. We already have a section where we can talk about things done in the way of Japan. So if we have a section where there are no requirements or set definitions/ standards of who is qualified to start their own style or not, then the guys from the kans have nothing to complain about people being misled. That is why I voted for the term "ninja concepts" becasue I felt that as long as we were clear that we were talking about what people felt (i.e. concepts) then there would be less of a problem that trying to determine who was and not a legitimate authority on ninjutsu.

Sorry to go on like this.

Hello, I am not sure what you all are trying to say, a little loss here? What is "American Ninjutsu"? Who ever started this has there interpretations of what it means, and can make it anyway they want it to fit for themselves. What is a true ninja? It is liking sayin," what is true karate"? Everthing envolves as time past. I think you are all right in your way of looking at it,no two people will see it the same, isn't this true for more things in life? Real Ninjutsu? What is it today,japanese way,american way, or my way? It is how you see it? All are correct. What is American? All or parts of our hertiage. Can be mix of everything. American Ninjutsu is just words, with many definitions, and each one of you will have it's own meaning...true? Define REAL? Is there one answer?.......Seems like some of you have there own feelings and express it with all your heart!..........still a little loss....

Japanese Ninjutsu
American Ninjutsu
My Ninjutsu

which one is correct to use? Why can't we use all or any? it.s our choice? ( In free America) An american car made with japanese parts..What is it?
Aloha

Do you want to know what I find funny?
Hayes, though he is the only one with legitimate Bujinkan training; does not call his American art by the "Ninjutsu" name but the ones without verifiable training use it (the name).

I was planning to stay away from this forum, but...

If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.
That's assuming he did learn NINJUTSU while in any of the -kans, as opposed to taijutsu and bukiwaza.

Claiming that you teach something without ever haveing studied it is wrong. KNowing that something exsists and useing that name to promote yourslef is wrong. Teaching something you THINK resembles something else and useing their name is wrong
:cheers:

Do you want to know what I find funny?
Hayes, though he is the only one with legitimate Bujinkan training; does not call his American art by the "Ninjutsu" name but the ones without verifiable training use it (the name).i thought hayes said something like "21rst century applications of ninjutsu." i might be wrong but i read that somewhere.

although everyone makes a good point... i have to agree with "still learning" on this one. why does a simple internet forum have to be so politically correct. why can't someone that obviously disagrees with whatever system just stay away? i don't think "jkd" should be a real style... but if the practicioners want to have a forum... so be it. i'm not saying not to question things... but... does it really make a difference to you? you want to impress someone with all your knowledge... place yourself apart in your training and in what you teach. not jump on every practicioner of the style you disagree with. that to me is silly and immature.

the trad. folk wanted us out of jma section... they said as long as we were out of their area we could talk about our styles in freedom... after obvious segregation that was hammered on to everyone outside of their circle of beliefs... we finally got the permission to move. now... those that do not study... buj, gen, jen, kling whatever... are not in the jma section... we still get hammered. weird:idunno: . what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj. why compare what is being done? if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and sign a couple of monthly payment plan papers and state how they have the only real ninjutsu. is that what its come to? now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts. more segregation? i think so! :angry:

so where is the middle ground? american ninjutsu is something that is done in america. why is that so hard for people to accept. they state the obvious saying "thats not the way its done in japan, or thats not japanese ninjutsu what you guys are doing"... who cares? not me! i for one am not trying to be a buj practicioner or any other style. i just wanted a "friendly discussion about the martial arts". if politics is taught more than ethics... thats a shame.
here is an article by sensei...
http://www.totalwarrior.com/Rick_Tew_s_Ninjitsu/Total_Warrior_Magazine/Tradition_its_History/tradition_its_history.html
may clear things up for some.

peace

what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj.
Maybe so, but WHY oh WHY use the "n-word" at all?? To prove WHAT point???

Maybe so, but WHY oh WHY use the "n-word" at all?? To prove WHAT point???Perhaps so that the people who study these arts know where the sub forum is located.

Enson: "...why does a simple internet forum have to be so politically correct. why can't someone that obviously disagrees with whatever system just stay away? i don't think "jkd" should be a real style... but if the practicioners want to have a forum... so be it. i'm not saying not to question things... but... does it really make a difference to you? you want to impress someone with all your knowledge... place yourself apart in your training and in what you teach. not jump on every practicioner of the style you disagree with. that to me is silly and immature."

You are completely missing the point. The disagreements from the traditionalists have nothing to do with political correctness, impressing people with knowledge, segregation, 'jumping on practicioners,' or disagreeing with style.

It is really, really simple, and I'm amazed that it is so hard to understand. Ninjutsu is a Japanese word with a specific definition that refers to a particular group of arts. If someone calls what they do ninjutsu, when it is not ninjutsu, then they are lying to people. That's it. It's that simple. That is the only complaint.

If someone teaches kung fu and calls it karate, they are lying to people. No matter how nice they are, how effective their style is, or how happy their students are. The fact remains that they are ok with deceiving and misleading people, and that is a problem. It hints to underlying character traits that many people find objectionable.

"The trad. folk wanted us out of jma section... "

For obvious reasons: Discussing non Japanese arts.

"they said as long as we were out of their area we could talk about our styles in freedom... "

I don't remember seeing anyone say that.

"...those that do not study... buj, gen, jen, kling whatever... are not in the jma section... "

Because they are not Japanese in origin, so it only makes sense...

"...we still get hammered."

Why do you think that is?

"...what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj. why compare what is being done?"

Again, completely beside the point. Comparisons are irrelevant.

"... if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and ....."

Irrelevant.

"... now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts."

Why do you think that is?

Really. ?

Segregation? Please, that has nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with "we are better, you suck" so we want to keep everybody separate. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art that is discussed in a Japanese art section, everything else that is not Japanese, and is not ninjutsu, shouldn't be discussed in a Japanse art section, and it should not be called ninjutsu. If the founders of these other arts just didn't lie to people, there would be no complaints.

"... american ninjutsu is something that is done in america. why is that so hard for people to accept."

I accept that American arts are done in America, I accept that there are people practicing ninjutsu in America. I do not accept that there are people practicing non-ninjutsu in America and calling it ninjutsu.

"... they state the obvious saying "thats not the way its done in japan, or thats not japanese ninjutsu what you guys are doing"... who cares? not me! i for one am not trying to be a buj practicioner or any other style."

Still irrelevant. It is obvious isn't it? You don't have to be in the buj' but if you're not or not in one of its derivatives, then you are simply not doing ninjutsu. It's a shame that the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei, but that's just the way it is.

I read the article by Mr. Tew -

"A paper trail will not help you to survive a life or death situation. Just because you are born or bred as part of a lineage does not mean you will succeed either. "


Irrelevant. Discussing effectiveness and authenticity of lineage in the same sentence is meaningless, they are two completely separate issues.


"History in the martial arts dictates that there is a tendency to see the East as the primary source of martial traditions, but the East does not have a monopoly on fighting arts .."


Obvious, yet obfuscating. Again it is besides the point. No one is saying that an art has to come from Japan to be real or effective.


"We teach under the system of Martial Science – which happens to be an American System regardless of any monopolies or influence foreign instructors have ..."


No one is saying he can't call what he does Martial Science. That is an accurate name. He can even say that the science is based on or influenced by ninjutsu. Nothing wrong with that. But calling it American Ninjutsu is rediculous.


"The English created "Cricket" which we turned into "Baseball" and it is now as American as Apple Pie. "


Yes, but Americans don't call what they do American Cricket.


"Have you heard of Football, Basketball or Baseball? So who is to say that we don't have the ability to develop or enhance any foreign concept?"


Ever heard of anyone playing American Football and calling it Rugby?


The rest of the article was very nice but continued to throw in "effectiveness is more important than authenticity" as a red herring to the primary issue. It also made the common accusation that traditional systems are outdated, when in fact they have been evolving just as much as the Modern or American systems (but have been doing so for far longer).


All in all, it was a long, fallacy-filled excuse for getting away with lying to people.

Perhaps so that the people who study these arts know where the sub forum is located.
I wasn't really referring to the name of this forum.

Ahhhhh. So sorry. :asian:

Is Texas Hold'em still not poker? :idunno:

You are completely missing the point. The disagreements from the traditionalists have nothing to do with political correctness, impressing people with knowledge, segregation, 'jumping on practicioners,' or disagreeing with style.maybe not for you but... you barely joined mt. at first there were people saying we should be called modern ninjutsu and then they wanted the name modern too. like a spoiled cousin of mine who not only wanted his toy but mine too.


It is really, really simple, and I'm amazed that it is so hard to understand. Ninjutsu is a Japanese word with a specific definition that refers to a particular group of arts. If someone calls what they do ninjutsu, when it is not ninjutsu, then they are lying to people. That's it. It's that simple. That is the only complaint.
and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)

If someone teaches kung fu and calls it karate, they are lying to people. No matter how nice they are, how effective their style is, or how happy their students are. The fact remains that they are ok with deceiving and misleading people, and that is a problem. It hints to underlying character traits that many people find objectionable.
yet there is american karate... epak and others... okinawan karate, japanese karate... kenpo, kempo, vallari, miyagi do karate (from the karate kid),etc. wierd huh? now are all these people misleading too?
For obvious reasons: Discussing non Japanese arts. okay
I don't remember seeing anyone say that. haven't been here long.

Because they are not Japanese in origin, so it only makes sense...
so are many concepts that japanese have... asian influence. so they shouldn't make cars and call them "japanese cars" because that is an american idea. or have electricity, etc.
Why do you think that is? i think i stated why already. some people just don't like what we do and would like us to play by their rules. they don't see they are in a different ball park.

Again, completely beside the point. Comparisons are irrelevant.
and yet some from your school are so bent on trying to find them... weird again.:idunno:

"... if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and ....."

Irrelevant.
i don't think so

"... now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts."

Why do you think that is?

Really. ?
because elitism runs wild in people that would like to have even their own name trademarked. its just a title... why use it? why would you? if the word ninjutsu is being used by the wannabes :rolleyes: they why don't you change? "we did its called buji", okay why argue if someone is using a name you abandoned?
Segregation? Please, that has nothing to do with it. This has nothing to do with "we are better, you suck" so we want to keep everybody separate. funny how you automatically said you were better first. just thought i would point that out. now sit back and think on why you worded it this way.
Ninjutsu is a Japanese art that is discussed in a Japanese art section, everything else that is not Japanese, and is not ninjutsu, shouldn't be discussed in a Japanse art section, and it should not be called ninjutsu. If the founders of these other arts just didn't lie to people, there would be no complaints. then we shouldn't be able to speak other languages, wear italian suites, make greek food,... it gets ridiculous after awhile.
and sure there would be complaints. "you are using a katana" thats our sword... when will it stop? i have a gut feeling a long time from now or maybe never. accept that American arts are done in America, I accept that there are people practicing ninjutsu in America. I do not accept that there are people practicing non-ninjutsu in America and calling it ninjutsu.well you might have to learn how to deal with it... for the sun will rise tomorrow. accept it or not, your opinion here... although well stated will not change the mind of my sensei or hayes, bussey, bussey offshoots. so why lose sleep? just accept there are things you can't change.


Still irrelevant. It is obvious isn't it? You don't have to be in the buj' but if you're not or not in one of its derivatives, then you are simply not doing ninjutsu. It's a shame that the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei, but that's just the way it is.
no more taco bell for you... in fact you can't eat hamburgers either because you arn't the one that invented it! ha ha! :rofl:
it is a shame... you are missing out on expanding your list of friends if you believe that the only source of ninjutsu is hatsumi.

I read the article by Mr. Tew - good


"A paper trail will not help you to survive a life or death situation. Just because you are born or bred as part of a lineage does not mean you will succeed either. "


Irrelevant. Discussing effectiveness and authenticity of lineage in the same sentence is meaningless, they are two completely separate issues.
your opinion of course


"History in the martial arts dictates that there is a tendency to see the East as the primary source of martial traditions, but the East does not have a monopoly on fighting arts .."


Obvious, yet obfuscating. Again it is besides the point. No one is saying that an art has to come from Japan to be real
the only authentic ninjutsu left in the world flows from Hatsumi sensei, your words not mine</B></FONT>


"We teach under the system of Martial Science – which happens to be an American System regardless of any monopolies or influence foreign instructors have ..."


No one is saying he can't call what he does Martial Science. That is an accurate name. He can even say that the science is based on or influenced by ninjutsu. Nothing wrong with that. But calling it American Ninjutsu is rediculous.
he does... its like learning american ninjutsu or an american version of ninjutsu.


"The English created "Cricket" which we turned into "Baseball" and it is now as American as Apple Pie. "


Yes, but Americans don't call what they do American Cricket.
don't count it out


"Have you heard of Football, Basketball or Baseball? So who is to say that we don't have the ability to develop or enhance any foreign concept?"


Ever heard of anyone playing American Football and calling it Rugby?
when i lived in costa rica i learned that they call soccer football... since it came to america the name was changed... like the buj.;) that is so weird though because we play "american football" and its different but still football... the country where football was derived should sue. imagine the settlement? we are using their word!


The rest of the article was very nice but continued to throw in "effectiveness is more important than authenticity" as a red herring to the primary issue. It also made the common accusation that traditional systems are outdated, when in fact they have been evolving just as much as the Modern or American systems (but have been doing so for far longer).
irrelevant! hee hee!




All in all, it was a long, fallacy-filled excuse for getting away with lying to people.
look at the totalwarrior website... or anyone else you see is lying... since you have stated all of that... did anything change? i can imagine it won't anytime in the near future. so why stress about something that your opinion can't change? just move on.

all in all. have fun with your training.

peace

at first there were people saying we should be called modern ninjutsu and then they wanted the name modern too. like a spoiled cousin of mine who not only wanted his toy but mine too.
This is a bit inaccurate. What some of us traditionalists objected to was the fact that some of the modern practitioners like to paint traditionalists as practicing a stagnant art that is ineffective in the present.

Jeff

Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle.... :rolleyes:Appreciate your opinion. But its quite simple; in plain English, it says ""As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. ..."

So: "the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu..." speaks for itself. Not trying to get people to believe anything in particular. Only trying to open Kaith's meetings to inputs available from sources he would consider well above my own.

If Ninjutsu is the ways of accomplishment of the Ninja, Neo's don't limit themselves to the study of only this artform so the term "Ninjutsu" shouldn't be a moniker for this section. You teach English so you should know that the sentence structure is quite clear on the definition. The definition may not be what you had hoped for, but it exist - from Hatsumi.

The is no twisting of the Chinese angle. Hatsumi only gave us what his teacher taught him. I posted his (Hatsumi's) explanation. No need of any "twisting." It (Hatsum's explanation) speaks clearly and is basically, what the Modern warriors also know. No secrets, no twisting, just facts. Feel free to take it up with your Soke. No need to 'start.' No need to continue with any dishonesty projections towards me. It is your Soke, it seems, you may need to confer with.

I'm really starting to like the little guy. The hightest member of the Genbuks also states basically the same explanation of the Chinese Connection. Don't think we're all dishonest do you?

and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)Good point. So what if I starting selling a roast-beef sandwhich and called it "Pizza" - is the fact that the sandwhich is good outweigh the fact that I lied? What about the other guy in town who sells "Pizza" - the real thing... is what I am doing have an associated influence on my customers (or people who aren't my customers - but know there is at least one HUGE LIAR in the "Pizza" business)? Weird, eh?
and sure there would be complaints. "you are using a katana" thats our sword... when will it stop?Well - what if you are using a english long sword and calling it a "Katana" - would we be right to complain that you are WRONG with your word choice?

well you might have to learn how to deal with it... for the sun will rise tomorrow. accept it or not, your opinion here... although well stated will not change the mind of my sensei or hayes, bussey, bussey offshoots. so why lose sleep? just accept there are things you can't change. Oh! Like rape and murder? They are going to happen - so just accept it. Even better - is that you are suggesting that we not call out liars and frauds when we see them - just accept that they exist and we can't change it.

Are you kidding me? (For what it is worth, there are all kinds of psycotic people who don't believe rape and murder are bad - should we just accept them and pretend it is ok for them to believe and act on their "beliefs"?)

I know I am using a stronger metaphor than is needed - but the argument that you are supporting is riddled with so many falacies that I don't even know where to start with it. Anyone with an adolescent's "common sense" should be able to shoot holes in that one, dude.

look at the totalwarrior website... or anyone else you see is lying... since you have stated all of that... did anything change? i can imagine it won't anytime in the near future. so why stress about something that your opinion can't change? just move on.
You are right - I can't change Rick's mind. I can, however, inform the rest of the world (or those reading this website) that Rick's claims and the name of his "system" is on EXTREMELY shaky ground (and can't stand to even the most basic set of questions). I think that anyone doing research on your "school" should know about these things - don't you?

Probably not - but since you can't change it - I guess you will just have to accept it.

Cheers -

-Daniel

PS - actually - it would be even more appropriate to just straight out LIE about Rick. Why not? There are liars in the world - so you should just accept it (specifically if I "believe" I am right - right?)

and pizza is a italian food yet we still seem to eat it up. doesn't matter who's variation it is. its that simple ;)
In America, order a pizza, and you will be served a pizza.
In Italy, order a pizza, and you will be served a pizza.
This is not the case with "ninjutsu training".

yet there is american karate... epak and others... okinawan karate, japanese karate... kenpo, kempo, vallari, miyagi do karate (from the karate kid),etc. wierd huh? now are all these people misleading too?
Unlike karate, ninjutsu isn't about physical techniques.

so are many concepts that japanese have... asian influence. so they shouldn't make cars and call them "japanese cars" because that is an american idea. or have electricity, etc.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you were to teach an American version of the concept known in the Japanese language (which is spoken in Japan, funny enough) as ninjutsu, you'd be teaching methods of strategy, surveillance, informations gathering and espionage as done in Langley, for example. NOT a set of physical techniques.

they don't see they are in a different ball park. Then what use is there in the word "ninjutsu"?

"we did its called buji", okay why argue if someone is using a name you abandoned?
Because its misleading?

funny how you automatically said you were better first. just thought i would point that out. now sit back and think on why you worded it this way.
:sadsong:

then we shouldn't be able to speak other languages, wear italian suites, make greek food,... it gets ridiculous after awhile.
You still don't want to face the fact that the "AN" interpretation of the word ninjutsu is an inaccurate one in respect to the language in which the term was coined!!

it is a shame... you are missing out on expanding your list of friends if you believe that the only source of ninjutsu is hatsumi.
Speaking up whenever you think something is wrong is indeed a good way to gain a lot of enemies.
It is also a great way to make REAL, albeit relatively few, truly good friends.

your opinion of course
Are you indicating that a historically inaccurate style is automatically more efficient than an accurate one?

your words not mine

He wrote "an art". That does not automatically imply that the art he was referring to was that of ninjutsu.


he does... its like learning american ninjutsu or an american version of ninjutsu.
How does an American interpretation of Japanese military tactics and strategy turn into bodily techniques with or without weapons along the way???

irrelevant! hee hee!


Now you're contradicting yourself. See "your opinion of course".

Appreciate your opinion. But its quite simple; in plain English, it says ""As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. ..."

So: "the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu..." speaks for itself. Not trying to get people to believe anything in particular. Only trying to open Kaith's meetings to inputs available from sources he would consider well above my own.

If Ninjutsu is the ways of accomplishment of the Ninja, Neo's don't limit themselves to the study of only this artform so the term "Ninjutsu" shouldn't be a moniker for this section. You teach English so you should know that the sentence structure is quite clear on the definition. The definition may not be what you had hoped for, but it exist - from Hatsumi.

The is no twisting of the Chinese angle. Hatsumi only gave us what his teacher taught him. I posted his (Hatsumi's) explanation. No need of any "twisting." It (Hatsum's explanation) speaks clearly and is basically, what the Modern warriors also know. No secrets, no twisting, just facts. Feel free to take it up with your Soke. No need to 'start.' No need to continue with any dishonesty projections towards me. It is your Soke, it seems, you may need to confer with.

I'm really starting to like the little guy. The hightest member of the Genbuks also states basically the same explanation of the Chinese Connection. Don't think we're all dishonest do you?It was Stephen Hayes's text, not Hatsumi sensei's!!

boy, did i strike a nerve or what? good post guys... "you too should be a ninja!" (chris farley - beverly hills ninja)

It was Stephen Hayes's text, not Hatsumi sensei's!!

Yep. And I think that if Sojobow were really interested in the truth, he would ask other people if they thought that the passage meant what he says it says (i.e. "Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments"), or if it is instead what I say it says (i.e. what they did was called ninjutsu). I am sure that the vast majority of people will go with what I say and not him.

boy, did i strike a nerve or what? good post guys... "you too should be a ninja!" (chris farley - beverly hills ninja)
How about reflecting on what you wrote...

Weird how more than one of us has the EXACT same beef with your misconceptions...

Good post yourself.

-Daniel

"It is better to be thought an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt..."

I just wanted to say thank you to those that brought up the points in Enson's response to my post. After reading his attempt at a counter, all I could do was shake my head and sigh.

I've done all I could. The facts are on the table, take them or leave them as you wish.

To further clarify:

What I don't want to do is repeat myself too much, so please reference these threads that previously covered the same ground:


Traditional / Neo: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17877

My opinions to be found in the following posts:

#24 (busting Aaron's balls :D): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=286909#post286909

#29 (comparison of traditional vs. "neo" hybrids): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198

#32 (more comparisons and clarifications): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288069#post288069

& #54 (on use of the term, "ninja"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=290781#post290781


Benefits / Drawbacks of Modern: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17421

My opinions to be found in the following posts:

#61 ("ninjutsu" vs "ninjitsu"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287525#post287525

#64 (on using the term, "ninjutsu"): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288527#post288527

#121 (how I feel about the whole discussion): no link necessary

and to a lesser extent, #128 (why you don't want to cite me as a source to back up your claims): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=292747#post292747

Ok guys I have decided to lock this thread!!! Oh wait, nevermind I can't do that. LOL. :rolleyes: Anyways, just FYI, I attached this link incase you wanted to read about Steven K. Hayes' view of "Ancient vs Modern Ninjutsu." Enjoy. :)

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

Why don't you ask Dean here if he agrees with Stephen Hayes's distinction between modern, "useful" training, and traditional budo taijutsu...? Page is in Croatian, but I think you get the point.

http://specwog.bujinkan.hr (http://specwog.bujinkan.hr/)

Why don't you ask Dean here if he agrees with Stephen Hayes's distinction between modern, "useful" training, and traditional budo taijutsu...? Page is in Croatian, but I think you get the point.

http://specwog.bujinkan.hr

I meant no disrespect to ANYONE. I was trying to be funny. Ouch, I guess I crashed and burned on that one eh??? The link I provided was just purely info for the curious to his point of view. Sorry if I offended anyone. I allways try not to. Oh, by the way, please only give me "good rep points". LOL. Thanx. Red is just not my color.

Alright jerk. My signature is supposed to be a joke. Silly, he he, lol type of thing. Stop sending me bad reps and demanding I change it, especialy without signing it. I am allowed to set up my signature how I want. Who the hell are you anyway??? If someone of importance tells me I have to do something I will. Stop being a prick.

Never told you to do anything.

====================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-

====================

Never told you to do anything.I didn't name you specifically. Sorry if you thought I was talking to you. No, someone keeps sending me bad rep points and telling me on there to change things. I just figured if they were important enough, they would be able to do it themselves. The points are silly anyway, that's not what ticks me off. It's when someone demands things they have no place to demand. Sorry Flatlander for being rude though. I will just stop posting on this thread. I am obviously not welcome.

Satt, if you feel that someone is abusing the rep point system, then please PM a Supermod and they will commence an investigation. Rep point abuse is against the rules, and not very cool either.

Please, continue posting wherever you choose. You are free to post where you like, provided you follow Martial Talk posting policies.

:asian:

I looked at who had 'dinged' Satt.
here were more than 1 person commenting on the sig bit.
Said sig bit is not a violation of our signature rules.
I see it in a jesting manner.

My only problem is the misspelling of "Always". :wavey:

I have no qualms about fessing up for that, and this is certainly not an appology.

Kaith Rustaz: "I looked at who had 'dinged' Satt. There were more than 1 person commenting on the sig bit. Said sig bit is not a violation of our signature rules. I see it in a jesting manner."

My comment was not about the signature line, "Good rep points ALLWAYS welcome!!!" I too think it's cute, and have no problem with it. I really like "MORE COWBELL!!!!!!!" too - a great SNL bit! :D

Maybe I should send you some good rep' because I like your sense of humor, that should balance things out a bit.

However, I did 'ding' you, Satt, for the following:

"I meant no disrespect to ANYONE. I was trying to be funny. Ouch, I guess I crashed and burned on that one eh??? The link I provided was just purely info for the curious to his point of view. Sorry if I offended anyone. I allways try not to."

It was for, what I saw to be, assuming that Nimravus was offended because of what he responded with. It seemed overly defensive and accusatory. That is what I disagreed with.

The comment about, "Oh, by the way, please only give me 'good rep points'. ..." was more of an after-thought. I thought it an immature attempt at trying to shield yourself from criticism.

If you want people to agree with you and give "good rep points" then write agreeable posts. That's how the system is supposed to work.

Writing the following, however, "Alright jerk. ... Stop sending me bad reps ... ... Who the hell are you anyway??? ... Stop being a prick." is not an example of writing agreeable posts - especially when followed by a tag-line that says "Good rep points ALLWAYS welcome!!!"

"I will just stop posting on this thread. I am obviously not welcome."

You are certainly welcome here (probably more so than I am, 'cause I'm just here to stir up trouble :p ), and I don't think anyone is making demands of you - at least I'm not - rather I am offering suggestions to better help you take advantage of the system that is in place for your benefit.

If a moderator informs me that what I did is considered abuse of the reputation point system, then I will definitely give you some good rep' because I like your sense of humor - that will balance it out. However, now I feel I have to ding you again because of the "Alright jerk ... Who the hell are you anyway??? ... Stop being a prick." incident.

So in the end, nothing will change unless you decide to earn a good reputation instead of trying to beg for one.

I appologize for participating in the thread drift and taking things off-topic.

I really didn't want to waste my time discussing this (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311453#post311453 (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311453#post311453)),

but I am still confused about the following:

Rick Tew: "A paper trail will not help you to survive a life or death situation. Just because you are born or bred as part of a lineage does not mean you will succeed either. "

Shizen: "Irrelevant. Discussing effectiveness and authenticity of lineage in the same sentence is meaningless, they are two completely separate issues."

Enson: "your opinion of course"

Explain to me how 'effectiveness' and 'authenticity' being separate issues is just my opinion.

I am not disagreeing with what Mr. Tew said. What he said is completely true. A paper trail or lineage or being part of an authentic tradition will not help you survive anything or succeed at anything. What he said actually reinforces the fact (or is it just 'my opinion' :rolleyes: ) that a style's effectiveness and its claims of historic lineage have little to do with eachother.

A style can have the most authentic, most verifiable historic lineage that goes back for eons, and still not be effective in combat.

A style may have no authenticity, no lineage, be made up on the spot, and even be making fraudulent claims about itself and be the most kick-ass fighting style the world has ever known.

However, both of the above are true vice-versa. That is why it is irrelevant to discuss such things - it does not further Mr. Tew's case that his style is better because it has no verifiable history (at least that's what the purpose of the article seems to be about).

The only thing I can see that links authenticity (read: verifiable historic lineage that spans many years) and effectiveness is that something that is authentic is more likely to be effective than something that is not because it has been around longer, more people have studied it, it has had more opportunities to evolve and improve, and so on. But then again, said traditional style may just be a dead art with little or no effectiveness, so again - it's irrelevant.

If that's just my opinion, then at least it's reasonable; however, if it is just an opinion, it is unable to be disproved. If you would like to cede that it is a fact, then at least you'll have the opportunity to argue against it.

Would anyone else like to agree or disagree with the following: "effectiveness and authenticity of lineage . . . are two completely separate issues."

Would anyone else like to agree or disagree with the following: "effectiveness and authenticity of lineage . . . are two completely separate issues."Because that particular discussion is not going to specifically address the definition of "what is American ninjutsu?", I'll ask that you begin a new thread to persue it. :asian:

Flatlander: "Because that particular discussion is not going to specifically address the definition of "what is American ninjutsu?", I'll ask that you begin a new thread to persue it."

Ah, good point. Perhaps I'll do that. But I don't know yet what forum to bring that up in. It is general enough to belong in the general section, but I would most like to see it discussed from a modern vs. traditional ninjutsu viewpoint.

There are these threads already in existance:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17421 - Benefits / Drawbacks of Modern

and

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17877 - Traditional / Neo

One is in the American Ninjutsu section, the other in the general (Japanese) Ninjutsu section.

Would either of those be appropriate to bring it up in . . .

Nevermind, the Traditional / Neo thread has been locked.

Would the Benefits / Drawbacks thread be appropriate, or should I really just start a new thread? And if so, what forum does it belong in?

Thank you and any other moderator that could help me with this.


p.s. as for my question in my above post (#166), maybe Enson could just send me a PM to help me understand his viewpoint. If no one else is interested, no need to clutter up valuable forum space.

Said sig bit is not a violation of our signature rules.


Bob,

The only guideline he maybe in violation is the length, meaning the number of lines. I think he has changed it since your comment, yet teh current one is as of this post is over the 6 line recommendation.

Other wise, I would recommend you guys check out the Bob and Tom Show at BobandTom.com and they have a whole skit, show about Cowbells, and even recommended listenting. ;)

Perhaps I'll do that. But I don't know yet what forum to bring that up in. It is general enough to belong in the general section, but I would most like to see it discussed from a modern vs. traditional ninjutsu viewpoint.Start up a new thread in this forum, and we'll see what develops. :asian:

Flatlander: "Start up a new thread in this forum, and we'll see what develops. :asian:"

Okie-dokie!

Here it is: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19408

:asian:

It was Stephen Hayes's text, not Hatsumi sensei's!!Sure it was (even though the name "Stephen Hayes" is not mentioned). We see Hatsumi's pictures, Hatsumi speaking in the "first person," Hatsumi speaking of "his inheritance." I do realized that Hatsumi has a limited use of the English Language and do understand the concept of translations. But, you may disregard the entire Book if you like. It only proves that very few actually training in Hatsumi's schools actually know what it is they train in. Example: in another Forum, I asked the simple question: "What is Ninjutsu." Out of over 50 replies, NONE were even similar to any other reply. Usually, the Boogs entered at least 3 answers until they finally gave up and just said "that's why I always say that we don't train in Ninjutsu, we train in Taijutsu."

Look at the Charters of all these sections and subsections. Show us where there is a definition of Ninjutsu anywhere in this entire Forum. But they want to force their definition of Modern on this section. The overwhelming number of modern schools use the term "Ninjitsu" and not "Ninjutsu" but if you wish we call it Modern Ninjutsu, so be it. Blaming not knowing what the definition of your artform on Stephen Hayes is ok with me. Do as you wish. Me student. No teacher. Hayes is wrong. I am wrong. Hatsumi is wrong. It's all good. Just trying to help Kaith with his quest.

As an aside: Here is what SKH says about Ninjutsu as taught by Hatsumi. Interpret as you wish but, to me, it confirms Hatsumi's statement and not any reinterpretation by anyone posting in this thread.

"From An-shu Stephen K. Hayes:
There was heavy emphasis on what 16th Century aggressors would throw at a defender. These attacks were based on the ways people moved, the way they dressed, and the environmental conditions of those days. In the classical training of those days, we did not go into anything like defending against boxer jabs, wrestler takedowns, kick boxer round kicks, and small group verbal-hassle-and-test surprise muggings - those were not things that were threats in the Japan of the 1500s."

Yep. And I think that if Sojobow were really interested in the truth, he would ask other people if they thought that the passage meant what he says it says (i.e. "Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments"), or if it is instead what I say it says (i.e. what they did was called ninjutsu). I am sure that the vast majority of people will go with what I say and not him.Since the "vast majority of people" are Bujinkans, they will go with whatever you say. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out the outcome of your one-sided poll. So, we'll end up with "your truth" and not "the truth." I'll stick with Hatsumi and SKH and let the Bujinkan Budo's stick with Roley. You guys are no fun at all. I'll bet you guys think Ninjas used the Katana too.

It. Was. Stephen Hayes. Who Wrote. That. Book!!!:rpo:

It's called ghostwriting, for crying out loud!!

Since the "vast majority of people" are Bujinkans, they will go with whatever you say. Doesn't take rocket science to figure out the outcome of your one-sided poll. So, we'll end up with "your truth" and not "the truth."

I said ask people. Not just Bujinkan people. But if you don't want to ask, well I gues you can just continue on with your quest and I will reference this portion whenever the subject comes up again.

And yes, ninja used katana.
:-offtopic

It. Was. Stephen Hayes. Who Wrote. That. Book!!!:rpo:
It's called ghostwriting, for crying out loud!!Hatsumi is very much alive. Says he will not leave the Island or send otheer Japanese teachers outside the Islands, but he's very much alive and need no ghostwriter. To be even more correct, the Secrets Book was written by Stephen Hayes, Masaaki Hatsumi (if incorrect, post the page as my own came from Amazon.com). Point in discussion is not who wrote the book, but the quote defining Ninjutsu by Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi. Is the definition directly attributable to Masaaki Hatsumi or not? If the definition is a direct quote from Hatsumi, end of discussion. If the definition is not directly attributable to Hatsumi (which I believe is the wish of most of the repliers here), present to us a definition attributable to Hatsumi Sensei.

Why would anyone wish Kaith the responsibility of defining their artform. Doesn't seem to fair to me since we have all these brilliant Japanese minds on this Forum :rolleyes: . One would think that a very simple way to install these definitions would be:

Ninjutsu: Directly from a quote by Masaaki Hatsumi;
Ninjitsu/Modern: Direct quote from a Founder of a Modern System/Style. Our opinion of the Founder is not relevant. If he/she has a style/system in practice today, it's Founder's definition is what matters;
Kali: Direct quote defining the art from a Founder of Kali.

The Founder or students of Kali should not be harnessed with the burden of defining another's Martial Science/Art especially if the Founders of these (other) systems/styles have Books, Articles, Websites that contain their definition of what they do. (poor english but I think you understand).

So, if you don't agree with the quoted definition of Ninjutsu that I have presented, find another attributable to Masaaki Hatsumi and post it for Kaith's and our benefit.

Lighten up and have fun. No need to cry out loud:)

Not what you say it is Snowjob.

By your definition, if a Firefighter wears his boots, suspenders and pants and swings his hose around calling it Ninjutsu, then we have to accept it as ninjutsu.

What an amazingly stupid and acrimonious concept.

We can also make this a Russian firefighter, or a Nigerian and it is still a valid form of Ninjutsu. It would not seem to matter to the definition if these Sokeys gagged on wasabi, What they say goes for you, Snowjob.

Which if fine if you have low standards. In light of who or what you train with this is consistant.

As for a definiton of what is ninjustu and what is schlong-jutsu, please leave that up to the adults.

Say Hi to HamandCheese for me. I may be heading into Seattle shortly, got an address for him?

Robert

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
Sheldon Bedell
-MT Moderator-

Hatsumi is very much alive. Says he will not leave the Island or send otheer Japanese teachers outside the Islands, but he's very much alive and need no ghostwriter.

I would agree. But Stephen Hayes seemed to think that in order to make what he wrote more understandable to an American audience, he would have to add in material for them. Some things that are understood to a Japanese audience would not be by an American one. So he took some things from various books Hatsumi wrote in Japanese and translated some of it, as well as added in a lot of other stuff that cannot be found in anything Hatsumi has written in Japanese.

And unless you have the original Japanese books and can read them, you are not in a position to tell which was originaly written by Hatsumi and what was added in by Hayes with his level of understanding at the time. Rather frustrating for many of us as we try to tell people that nothing that Hatsumi has written in Japanese supports certain sections like that about ninjas supposably being persecuted minorities, them not having access to curved swords, etc.

I'll bet you guys think Ninjas used the Katana too.
OF COURSE NOT!!!!

Everyone knows that Suzuki Motors only started manufacturing the Katana motorcycle a few years ago!!! There's no way the ninja of feudal Japan, Moscow, Tahiti or Dagobah could possibly have gotten their hands on one before then. We must look sooo gullible if we look like we're under that impression! REALLY! Motorcycles in feudal Japan!?!

Well anyway, it's a good thing we have members here that can straighten us out and let us know how things really are. :asian:

I would agree. But Stephen Hayes seemed to think that in order to make what he wrote more understandable to an American audience, he would have to add in material for them. .It's ok with me. Lets look at what we have so far:

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

*Book is published with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei as Authors;
*Book cites a direct definition by Hatsumi Sensei of what constitutes Ninjutsu;
*Book also cites documents passed on to Hatsumi Sensei, by his teacher and 33 Soke, regarding the connection of or the Chinese influence(s) on Ninjutsu and Japanese Culture;
*Referenced pages are posted on Bujinkan South Africa's website under a caption - History of Ninjutsu;
*Referenced website list Masaaki Hatsumi as the Author;
*Kaith asks for certain definitions - one being "Ninjutsu," the other being a title for this subheading;
*sojobow, being so well loved in this forum section and subsection, submits a definition of Ninjutsu as he has not been suspended in the past couple of days;
*Definition of Ninjutsu is gleaned directly from literature directly attributed to Hatsumi Sensei, Founder of the Bujinkan school and Soke of all schools within the "Bujinkan" and who should actually KNOW what the definition of what constitutes a portion of his own style;
*This Soke/Founder also list another source - his own teacher and the person passing to this Soke at least 9 other schools, ryus, ryuhas or whatever;

*Now, we are to believe that the only one who knows what Ninjutsu is is actually the Soke of the 9 schools and Founder of the 10th because his students posting here evidently don't know;
*To cover up that they don't know, they want us to disregard 2 Soke, 3 Founders, other Soke-quoted references and good-ol sojobow;
*Now, due to the sojobow-submitted definition(s), Kaith has a direct definition of Ninjutsu from the Founder and Soke of an "authentic" Japanese organization and it-ain't-good-enough. Then to add to this, another poster starts debating Suzuki Motorcycles and their Sword-making divisions;
*But the Budo Taijutsu practioner posting here can't seem to present to administration any other definition but (to paraphrase) "Ninjutsu is what the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and some other offspring do." "And don't believe the Book that Masaaki Hatsumi authored cause it ain't written in Japanese"
*Still no definitions submitted as requested - other than "it whatever we do."
*when all else fails, go back to post #66 by that guy we all love to hate.

I take back my previous statement about you guys not being any fun. Truth is, you Budo Taijutsu guys posting here are a barrel of fun stuff. Gotta luv em :) Now, I'm really having fun and learning a lot.

Come on guys. It's really simple. Fill in the Blanks: "Ninjutsu is the art of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ."

(yep, I'm hooked on phonix too)

Come on guys. It's really simple. Fill in the Blanks: "Ninjitsu is the art of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ."　
Hmmm....seven blanks..."Ninjitsu is the art of S-N-O-W-J-O-B"???

Hmmm....seven blanks..."Ninjitsu is the art of S-N-O-W-J-O-B"???What ever happened to those Private Messages you were supposed to be posting for all of us to read? Post em in the correct thread please.

What ever happened to those Private Messages you were supposed to be posting for all of us to read?
Still hurting over that? I apologized, I said I was sorry.

When I was 14 years old, I probably would have flinched at your jab there, but ya' know, I think I'll hold onto my aces and play them when I'm ready to play them.

Hang in there.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

Sojobow,
You post directed at me was rather disjointed and just seemed to bounce back and forth among certain things.

Let me see if I can get this straight. You want people to accept your definition of ninjutsu, quote a book and assign your own meaning to it. When I point out that your reading of it really is not what 99 percent of the population would say it is, you start tossing even more barbs at those disagreeing with you.

And if you want to start bringing up past history (i.e. with Kizaru) there is a ton of stuff we could bring up that you have failed to give a decent answer to in the past. Since they were first, maybe we should deal with them, or you can drop your sniping at him and deal with the issue.

==================================================
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Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
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================================================== =

Why is the definition if ninjutsu even being discuissed? I thought our guidelines were clear.

It's ok with me. Lets look at what we have so far:

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

*Book is published with SKH and Hatsumi Sensei as Authors;
*Book cites a direct definition by Hatsumi Sensei of what constitutes Ninjutsu;
*Book also cites documents passed on to Hatsumi Sensei, by his teacher and 33 Soke, regarding the connection of or the Chinese influence(s) on Ninjutsu and Japanese Culture;
*Referenced pages are posted on Bujinkan South Africa's website under a caption - History of Ninjutsu;
*Referenced website list Masaaki Hatsumi as the Author;
*Kaith asks for certain definitions - one being "Ninjutsu," the other being a title for this subheading;
*sojobow, being so well loved in this forum section and subsection, submits a definition of Ninjutsu as he has not been suspended in the past couple of days;
*Definition of Ninjutsu is gleaned directly from literature directly attributed to Hatsumi Sensei, Founder of the Bujinkan school and Soke of all schools within the "Bujinkan" and who should actually KNOW what the definition of what constitutes a portion of his own style;
*This Soke/Founder also list another source - his own teacher and the person passing to this Soke at least 9 other schools, ryus, ryuhas or whatever

Sojobow, the article in question is an excerpt from the second chapter of Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. Once again, this was written by Stephen Hayes. Not Masaaki Hatsumi.

*Now, we are to believe that the only one who knows what Ninjutsu is is actually the Soke of the 9 schools and Founder of the 10th because his students posting here evidently don't know;
*To cover up that they don't know, they want us to disregard 2 Soke, 3 Founders, other Soke-quoted references and good-ol sojobow;
*Now, due to the sojobow-submitted definition(s), Kaith has a direct definition of Ninjutsu from the Founder and Soke of an "authentic" Japanese organization and it-ain't-good-enough. Then to add to this, another poster starts debating Suzuki Motorcycles and their Sword-making divisions;
*But the Budo Taijutsu practioner posting here can't seem to present to administration any other definition but (to paraphrase) "Ninjutsu is what the Bujinkan, Genbukan, and some other offspring do." "And don't believe the Book that Masaaki Hatsumi authored cause it ain't written in Japanese"
*Still no definitions submitted as requested - other than "it whatever we do."
*when all else fails, go back to post #66 by that guy we all love to hate.

I honestly have no clue as to what the point of the above quotation is. Its not even logically coherent. :idunno:

Come on guys. It's really simple. Fill in the Blanks: "Ninjutsu is the art of _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ."

A definition of 'ninjutsu', as well as the philosophical meaning of 'nin', is given in the Bansenshukai. Do a little research & reading (I know, guys: first time for everything, right??).

Heh. Laterz. :rolleyes:

Sojobow, the article in question is an excerpt from the second chapter of Ninjutsu: History and Tradition. Once again, this was written by Stephen Hayes. Not Masaaki Hatsumi.

. :rolleyes:if that is the case why would hatsumi let the book be written in such a manner. he would have to give hayes permission to write a book in his name. weird, no?

He once told some American guy that he could be the next Soke too...

He once told some American guy that he could be the next Soke too...would that be bussey? hmmm so he says one thing and does another... weird... inconsistant too.

Don't know who said it first, but "don't judge the world by your own crappy standards". Japanese use a lot of subtle means of communication that quite simply don't transfer well to westerners. Then again, it's not very Japanese to tell you what's expected of you to do or to understand, you're supposed to figure that out for yourself if you have any manners whatsoever.

Kyojitsu tenkan ho.

thats convinient... blame it on the culture. its our way to say something and do another... that opens the doors to many other doubts... "we say our style works but it doesn't?" ???????????

thats convinient... blame it on the culture. its our way to say something and do another... that opens the doors to many other doubts... "we say our style works but it doesn't?" ???????????

You clearly haven't spent much time in Japan.

Just what I was going to say. Thank god for cultural diversity.

You clearly haven't spent much time in Japan.clearly! hee hee! i didn't know that was a requirement to study martial arts...

It is if you want to understand the Japanese. I'm going there myself in about 16 hours.

It is if you want to understand the Japanese. I'm going there myself in about 16 hours.say what?

I. Am. Going. To. Japan. In. A. Few. Hours. You following me yet?

I. Am. Going. To. Japan. In. A. Few. Hours. You following me yet?okay... are those your credentials?

Say what?

And what is it about going to Japan to understand the Japanese that doesn't make sense?

clearly! hee hee! i didn't know that was a requirement to study martial arts...

Its not. But, you asked why things are done the way they are done in Japan.

Take in mind that several Japanese would be just as bewildered at the way we do things in the West, as well.

Its not. But, you asked why things are done the way they are done in Japan.

Take in mind that several Japanese would be just as bewildered at the way we do things in the West, as well.no, no, i looked back and never asked that. that was a response given to me regarding my question on why hatsumi let a book be written in his name.

He's Japanese. You apparently have a hard time understanding the way Japanese are.

Ben Cole uttered the following phrase once and no one has said it better yet: "Hatsumi sensei will gladly give you the rope you need to hang yourself with".

He's Japanese. You apparently have a hard time understanding the way Japanese are.

Ben Cole uttered the following phrase once and no one has said it better yet: "Hatsumi sensei will gladly give you the rope you need to hang yourself with".apparently so. i don't think it is a cultural thing saying "okay write a book with my picture on it and my name on it but totally wrong ideas... then after you make me rich i will totally deny ties to you or the book." again hatsumi never said this... just hearsay and rumors.

no, no, i looked back and never asked that. that was a response given to me regarding my question on why hatsumi let a book be written in his name.

You asked why Hatsumi was apparently "inconsistent". We gave you an answer. Apparently, it was one you didn't like.

If Hatsumi sensei has denied his ties to Stephen Hayes, which I seriously doubt he has, that book would have nothing to do with it.

Did it ever occur to you that it may have been Stephen Hayes who WANTED to write the book in question?

If Hatsumi sensei has denied his ties to Stephen Hayes, which I seriously doubt he has, that book would have nothing to do with it.

Did it ever occur to you that it may have been Stephen Hayes who WANTED to write the book in question?sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.

sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.

What about launching a war under false pretenses?? :p

Sorry, I couldn't resist. :D

sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.
Going further in that direction, is it just me or has anyone else thought of the hilariousness of the fact that Stephen Hayes claims to teach his own interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's art using Western principles, while at the same time clinging to his old "five elements theory"?

Going further in that direction, is it just me or has anyone else thought of the hilariousness of the fact that Stephen Hayes claims to teach his own interpretation of Hatsumi sensei's art using Western principles, while at the same time clinging to his old "five elements theory"?actually i think don roley said that hayes is the only one that used the five elements, and that wasn't done in japan. weird.

Hayes got the idea from his studies of Tendai Mikkyo --- and perhaps a rather interesting interpretation of the sanshin no kata --- and, since Ninpo was obviously influenced by Mikkyo, kinda "smushed" the two together.

My guess is you'll see things Hayes calls "Ninpo" that are actually only taught in Mikkyo, and you'll see things he calls "Mikkyo" that are actually only taught in Ninpo.

But, really, that's another topic altogether. ;)

sure just doesn't seem like an "american" thing to do. write a book under false pretenses and all.
Ashida Kim, Haha Lung, Frank Dux, the list could go on and on. Americans, like every other nationality, are not perfect. I think as we pass into adulthood, we realize that the world "is" and it's not necessarily the way we think it "should be" or expect it to be.

Now I'm not saying that SKH wrote that book under "false pretenses" though. Who's to say that wasn't his best understanding of the information at the time, or that he beleived the information to be correct?

actually i think don roley said that hayes is the only one that used the five elements, and that wasn't done in japan. weird.

I think you missed the point. The five element theory is not American, nor is it part of the way the Bujinkan is taught in Japan. Re-read the post by Nimravus again and it will now be clearer as to what he was trying to say.

Sojobow,
You post directed at me was rather disjointed and just seemed to bounce back and forth among certain things.

Let me see if I can get this straight. You want people to accept your definition of ninjutsu, quote a book and assign your own meaning to it. When I point out that your reading of it really is not what 99 percent of the population would say it is, you start tossing even more barbs at those disagreeing with you.Not at all. I don't want people to accept my definition as I have not presented my definition. what I presented was someone elses (Hatsumi Sensei's) definition. I have assigned no meaning as the definition is quite clear and speaks for itself. Quite clear and less than 5 words. When did we have this scientific pole where 99 percent of the population would have a different opinion than that of given by Hatsumi Sensei? No barbes were intended. I only ask that that 99 percent that disagree with the definition presented, present their own. Thus far, no takers. Not one single definition of Ninjutsu was presented by anyone other than the one I presented. Only complaints at the only definition presented. I believe it would help a lot more if you drop the complaints and present to this Forum and the administration, your (meaning you and the other 99 percent) own definition. Misdirection by constantly complaining could only mean that no one knows any definitions.

And if you want to start bringing up past history (i.e. with Kizaru) there is a ton of stuff we could bring up that you have failed to give a decent answer to in the past. Since they were first, maybe we should deal with them, or you can drop your sniping at him and deal with the issue.The difference is that what I have failed to give a decent answer to in the past is (1)it's your opinion that the answers were not decent but they were honest, and (2)Kizaru was totally dishonest. He knows it and you know it so defending him may also indicate some type of dishonesty on your part. I am not sniping at him or anyone else for that matter. I would consider his last post above "sniping" for that matter and it is noted that he did not "deal with the issues" just as you have not dealt with the issue. As there is no written definition of "sniping" on this Forum, excuse me from doing so. In reality, any answer I present is decent.

Wanna give us your definition now or are we to read another one of your unfounded complaints?

==================================================
Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Dan Bowman-
-MT Moderator-
================================================== =I think I may have asked more than once before but have yet to be presented with the information.
I have read just about all of the information you have linked us to. I have noted such written Policies as:
General Rules, More specific policies, terms of usage, etc.. You do have written Policies such as:
Account Policy
Avatar Policy
Image Posting Policy
Complaint Policy:
Copyrighted Material/Content Policy
Signature Policy
and others.
However, I'd really like to read what a "Sniping Policy" is defined as. Maybe I just keep missing it. Please cut and paste it here for me. I keep getting bounced but never actually know why.

Why is the definition if ninjutsu even being discuissed? I thought our guidelines were clear.I think it has clearly been shown that those guidelines are actually incorrect begining with the initial sentence. Whether or not they remain so is up to you and other members of your administration. I will accept whatever is agreed upon. I do believe that you are finalizing things very soon so the definitions are really of no use and I, for one, will discontinue participating in the discussion within this thread. Not really getting anywhere anyway.

Not at all. I don't want people to accept my definition as I have not presented my definition. what I presented was someone elses (Hatsumi Sensei's) definition.

And again I will point out that the book says that what the ninja did was known as ninjutsu- it was not a definition as you are trying to portray it as.

Here is the quote,

As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands.

Now, you take that to 99 percent of the population and ask them if that means that ninjutsu is the study of things AS THEY WERE DONE and they will say no. The correct definition would be that there were a group and they were called ninja. And the stuff they did was called ninjutsu.

Try inserting the words "doctors" and "medicine" instead of "ninja" and "ninjutsu" and we can clerly see the flaw in your interpetation.

if that is the case why would hatsumi let the book be written in such a manner. he would have to give hayes permission to write a book in his name. weird, no?It is not the case at all. They are giving you incorrect information. Here is something that may help. Watch out for the twist and turns though. It's like someone writing a book about Abraham Lincoln. They include the Gettsburg Address in their book and we get an arguement that the writer of the book wrote the Gettsburg Address and not Lincoln. It was Lincoln stating 4 score - 7 years ago....... It was Masaaki Hatsumi, Soke of Toga....Ryu Ninjutsu, who defines what Ninjutsu is to his Ryu and its students. If his students don't want to accept his writings, so be it. Ask them if Masaaki Hatsumi receives Royalties from the book. Ask them if all this debate keeps going on because sojobow quoted their Soke.

The words of the insert are those of Masaaki Hatsumi.
http://japanbookplaza.com.au/shop/product_info.php/manufacturers_id/263/products_id/590
http://www.reviewcentre.com/reviews19872.html
http://www.ukmao.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=500-105
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0865680272/104-4388744-9055901?v=glance

Books by Masaaki Hatsumi:
Essence of Ninjutsu
The Grandmaster's Book of Ninja Training
Stick Fighting
Books by Stephen Hayes:
The Mystic Arts of the Ninja
Ninjutsu
Secrets from the Ninja Grandmaster: Revised and Updated Edition.
Guess which ones by Stephen Hayes were Co-authored by Masaaki Hatsumi?

It is not the case at all. They are giving you incorrect information.

Nope. The fact that Hayes took some stuff that Hatsumi had written in Japanese from various books, added in some stuff he thought would be needed for a western audience and gave total credit to Hatsumi is well known. There are a lot of things that can be found in the book that are not found in any Japanese book by Hatsumi.

Hayes tried the best he could with the knowledge he had almost a quarter century ago. He honestly thought that what he wrote was just enough for non-Japanese to understand what was going on. There have been debates over this for many, many years.

And this is all besides the point that the meaning you are trying to put into the section being debated is not what anyone else would, or has so far.

And again I will point out that the book says that what the ninja did was known as ninjutsu- it was not a definition as you are trying to portray it as.

Here is the quote,

Quote:
As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands.


Now, you take that to 99 percent of the population and ask them if that means that ninjutsu is the study of things AS THEY WERE DONE and they will say no. The correct definition would be that there were a group and they were called ninja. And the stuff they did was called ninjutsu. .
Then 99 percent of the population will also fail English. Because the two phrases are separated by a comma (,), the phrases can be grammatically transposed but the sentence will still be structurally correct.

Example:

Sentence phrases as written;

"....., the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu,"

Phrases transposed:

".....Known as Ninjutsu, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment,..."

written with the same words for Grammar:

Ninjutsu: the ninja and their ways of accomplishment.

Think we're just beating this dead horse for no apparent reason. Just let it go. You're in Japan and another of his students is apparently on his way. Why don't the both of you just ask Masaaki Hatsumi. (But don't say sojobow sent you :) ). You're teaching English to the Japanese so we'd think you knew this already :idunno:

You're in Japan and another of his students is apparently on his way. Why don't the both of you just ask Masaaki Hatsumi. (But don't say sojobow sent you :) ). You're teaching English to the Japanese so we'd think you knew this already :idunno:

Well, since you want to try to confuse the issue with grammer rules and all that, let us just cut to the chase.

As a teacher of English and a student in Japan of ninjutsu in Hatsumi's orginization, I know that the definition you are trying to promote is incorrect.

If you really want to let the matter rest as you say, instead of trying to get me to shut up, then don't respond and let it rest. If you respond in any way, you will prove you merely are trying to get the last word in and get your definition accepted. Kind of like an Itachi no Pe. (http://www.paxbaculum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143)

There have been debates over this for many, many years.

And this is all besides the point that the meaning you are trying to put into the section being debated is not what anyone else would, or has so far.
I think the debate should be taken up with the Publishers and not me. Most books have a title page which identifies the Title, Author(s), Publisher(s), Copywrite Date(s), Library of Congress index numbers. The listed Publisher(s) pays the listed Author(s). It is also apparent that the same phrase is listed in more than one book. No need of debating me, just open the books to the Title Page(s). If both gentlemen are cashing checks from the Publishers, its all good too.

The Authors don't seem to be debating so why should we?

Also, knowing it would sink ships around here, I doubt very seriously if Kaith would insert anything presented by at least two people - one currently present and one never present but constantly named. Too dangerous.

Think we're just beating this dead horse for no apparent reason. Just let it go.

If you really want to let the matter rest as you say, instead of trying to get me to shut up, then don't respond and let it rest. If you respond in any way, you will prove you merely are trying to get the last word in and get your definition accepted. Kind of like an Itachi no Pe. (http://www.paxbaculum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143)

Yet still it goes on.

Oh, and if you want to lecture people about grammer, you had bettter see what is missing from the beggining of your quote above.

As a teacher of English and a student in Japan of ninjutsu in Hatsumi's orginization, I know that the definition you are trying to promote is incorrect.If the definition I presented is incorrect and, as you know that the definition is incorrect because you're in Japan, simply share with us the correct definition that you must then know and the discussion ends with your well documented definition.

.....instead of trying to get me to shut up, .... Now that would be a miracle, as well as an impossibility, on my part. Note the use of the comma(,) Rearrange the phrases. They will still say the exact same thing.

Kind of like an Itachi no Pe. (http://www.paxbaculum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1143) Now you know I don't speak Japanese. Is this another of those Japanese Pies discussed before? We speak English in this Section. A stick is a Stick.

Just a thought. Since at least 3 of the 10 Hatsumi Sensei schools contain some element of Ninjutsu within their curriculums, is the definition handed down to Hatsumi Sensei different in each of these schools or are they the same? Just a thought. Please show us the definitions (if available). Very interested.

MOD NOTE-

Thread Locked Pending Admin Review-
Topic has degraded into Nonsense-

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-

I think I may have asked more than once before but have yet to be presented with the information.
I have read just about all of the information you have linked us to. I have noted such written Policies as:
General Rules, More specific policies, terms of usage, etc.. You do have written Policies such as:
Account Policy
Avatar Policy
Image Posting Policy
Complaint Policy:
Copyrighted Material/Content Policy
Signature Policy
and others.
However, I'd really like to read what a "Sniping Policy" is defined as. Maybe I just keep missing it. Please cut and paste it here for me. I keep getting bounced but never actually know why.http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=sniping
Main Entry: 2snipe
Function: intransitive verb
Inflected Form(s): sniped; snip·ing
1 : to shoot at exposed individuals (as of an enemy's forces) from a usually concealed point of vantage
2 : to aim a carping or snide attack

Is that plain enough?
Seig
MT Ops Admin