American Ninjutsu - Forum Charter

"Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."

This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction.

American Ninjutsu
American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students).
To Shin Do is one thing, but Tew and Bussey???

Also I wouldn't say that "traditional ninjutsu" is "bound" by traditionalism, although that's a different matter altogether.

This "Charter" if you will is like all of them here, open to evolution as things progress. We had to start somewhere.

Our goals with this section are multiple.
- To give those individuals who study the non-Japanese versions, spin offs and adaptations a place to discuss without the fear of being bound by "Traditional" limitations.
- To prevent the continued disruption of the forums by the non-stop traditional/modern warfare
- To expand the services offered by MT to the martial arts community as a whole.


If the posted charter is inadequate, we are open to modification. Please use this thread to discuss and debate those modifications.

:asian:

Where were you when Kerry needed some speeches written? That is a very, very politically correct and kind and polite charter.

I think one defining factor between the To-Shin So system is Hayes Shihan has spent some documentable time studying an authentic ninjutsu system. It is open to discussion how much ninjutsu he was taught and there can be still more discussion on how much he retained.

But the bottom line for Hayes Shihan is; He was there and he can have an interpretation based on his experiences.

I feel safe saying Tew and Bussey have more knowledge of hair care products than ninjutsu.

So if you are looking for a delineating factor between True "American Ninjutsu" and posuers, I think verifiable, long term experience is needed. Otherwise you open the doors for any kid who's competent with a keyboard and camera to start his own "American Ninjutsu" style and this would just degrade the reputation of those who actually CAN make that claim. And there are some true spank-meisters out there. Seeing an "American Ninjutsu" Soke who is maybe, MAYBE twenty, describe how you can block a sword cut with a saya on his forearm, (Think Upper Block for you TKD and Karate types with the scabbard lying on the forearm.) is asking for dismemberment. Saya are thin wood paper and lacquer. And it's not the first cut that would kill him. But the next one...or the one after that. That's "American NInjutsu" But of a wholly different calibre than what anyone with two operating brain cells would want to be associated with.

I think another delineating factor may be language and weapons. If they use Japanese and the traditional Ningu, Hanbo, Ken, tachi, yari et al or the other set of "traditional" weapons, Nunchucks, sai, tonfa, (teehee) then the art is trying to be traditional. If the "American Ninjutsu" art is trying to use non-traditional japanese weapons, say a vacuum cleaner, then there is an attempt for it to be non-traditional.

Otherwise the instructors are just venal at worst, mercantile at best and trying to cash in on the '80's ninjer craze.

So perhaps a list of qualifications with points awarded for each item. So, sticking with the vacuum cleaner act; a school that teaches vacuum cleaner jutsu award some points for the vacuum cleaner but take away point for calling it Vacuum Cleaner no Kata. Full marks for Vacumm Cleaner Dance or Form. As this is not in traditional Japanese ninjutsu. (That I know of, Hehehehe) this would be OK. I guess. From what I have seen training with you Yanks, y'all like your guns. Long arms and pistols. So, that should factor in heavy. Yes, it's in Budo also, but it should be treated differently by y'all. (I say that with Love in my voice and an longing for my FN back. I'm sooo jealous of y'all. No, I don't need an FN but....)

One other point, calling it "American Ninjustu" takes out the Nindo ryu, which is a traditional Puerto Rican Ninja style, Uh huh, and there's a goofy guy called Juan Hombre who's a spanish Ninja, a bunch of crackheads Down-under who believe theirs is a Singapura style of Ninjutsu, some Dr. in Italy who's sword work is amazing but his photos are really cool, and on and on the parade goes. So, this nonclemature of "American Ninjutsu" seems limiting. Do you WANT to include these nutbars or restrict them? Personnally, if I were training with some fraud I would not want to be associated with the above frauds. Truly.

Perhaps first defining Traditional Ninjutsu, (Good Luck), then define "American Ninjutsu using that as a datum.

So those are my thoughts intersperesed with some humour despite the late hour. Hope that it helps and if it doesn't, it inspires intelligent discourse.

2 short points (as I'm also supposed to be well, more unconcious than I am now.) :)

As much as I'd like to claim credit for polite writing, the charter as posted was writen by this forums moderator after a phone discussion we had a few days ago.

You've raised some valid points which I hope we can examine and resolve.


Oh, the "Traditional Definition" as we use in that forum is the strict verifiable Japanese lineage, currently tracing through Hatsumi. It is also open to future expansion based on new information.

Before I start, I'd like to say that I'm far from an authority on Ninjutsu. That being said, I'd like to have a pleasant discussion, rather than a flame war.

Regarding Hayes, Bussey, etc. and the term "American". I was under the impression that Bussey did spend time in Japan as well as doing some training with Hayes. It seems to me that the "American Ninjutsu" term was coined by Bussey when he came back to the states. Comparing his thoughts, beliefs, teachings, etc. to someone like Hayes, it seems that Bussey modified what he learned to better suit the person living in todays world, compared to what it was like in Japan back in the day.

It also seems that Hayes himself made some changes with what he teaches.

Mike

Bob or Mike,

Correct me here if I am wrong, but after months of going over this in the Moderators Forums and the Steering Forum, I want to respond:

I think one defining factor between the To-Shin So system is Hayes Shihan has spent some documentable time studying an authentic ninjutsu system. It is open to discussion how much ninjutsu he was taught and there can be still more discussion on how much he retained. But that is not up for debate per se. Rather the forum is to split off those "protesting" American/Neo/Modern Ninjitsu.

I feel safe saying Tew and Bussey have more knowledge of hair care products than ninjutsu.

So if you are looking for a delineating factor between True "American Ninjutsu" and posuers, I think verifiable, long term experience is needed. Otherwise you open the doors for any kid who's competent with a keyboard and camera to start his own "American Ninjutsu" style and this would just degrade the reputation of those who actually CAN make that claim. Once again, this is an issue on any forum, not just Ninjitsu. The "he said, she said," or "my instructor is better than yours" is common throughout all the arts. Respectfully, you are expressing an OPINION, and that will not get them or their student's opinions limited or removed from the new forum.

I think another delineating factor may be language and weapons. If they use Japanese and the traditional Ningu, Hanbo, Ken, tachi, yari et al or the other set of "traditional" weapons, Nunchucks, sai, tonfa, (teehee) then the art is trying to be traditional. If the "American Ninjutsu" art is trying to use non-traditional japanese weapons, say a vacuum cleaner, then there is an attempt for it to be non-traditional. Now that is plain silly! What you call a weapon will not decide which catagory you are in, or all the traditionalist who like to challenge Modern/American will be over there and the same old same old arguements continue. We are trying to get away from this and allow space for both parties to dialogue re: their own Arts, not challenge others. "MartialTalk - FRIENDLY DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MARTIAL ARTS" (it says it right on our logo).

One other point, calling it "American Ninjustu" takes out the Nindo ryu, which is a traditional Puerto Rican Ninja style, Uh huh, and there's a goofy guy called Juan Hombre who's a spanish Ninja, a bunch of crackheads Down-under who believe theirs is a Singapura style of Ninjutsu, some Dr. in Italy who's sword work is amazing but his photos are really cool, and on and on the parade goes. So, this nonclemature of "American Ninjutsu" seems limiting. Do you WANT to include these nutbars or restrict them? (NOTE: ... I left out the sarcasm in the last sentence). I actually think what you posted until then makes good sense and we need to be inclusive of that group ... if they are represented here on this board.

This is the Mod/Admin Teams attempt to reduce the amount of friction between the two forums. You would think having separate forums would have worked, but the outrageous alleged "fraud busting", or "you are stepping in my puddle" continues to give the Mods fits. I am ready to create a heavily moderated forum and lock any thread where one of the other's steps in ... but I was out voted so Bob is attempting to help resolve the issues with newly created forums and redefining the parameters. Give it a shot and post or PM Seig with suggestions, if they are serious and worth consideration.

In the meantime, try to play nice.

-Michael Billings
MT Super-Moderator

Bob or Mike,
Once again, this is an issue on any forum, not just Ninjitsu. The "he said, she said," or "my instructor is better than yours" is common throughout all the arts. Respectfully, you are expressing an OPINION, and that will not get them or their student's opinions limited or removed from the new forum.

If you are going to stick with the guidelines Kaith put up in his first post in this sticky, Tew and Bussey needs to go. Also, you need to do a check-up on what the term ninjutsu means. I'd say the most accurate version of American "ninjutsu" you can find is what CIA/NSA etc. are dealing with nowadays.

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.

Don't tell me you've never heard of things like Mu Te Jinen ryu Goshinjutsu, Brian McCarthy, Wayne L Roy's own style, Ryu San Ryu and the like (none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - never said there aren't any more Bujinkan offshoots though)?

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.i have to agree with that point.

if everyone would read this charter carefully you will see that there is room to grow. if the style was not founded by an american then i'm sure that general ninjutsu(in the japanese section) might be able to accomadate them.

the fact of the japanese folk stepping in here just to try and set the recored straight, is proof of what was causing all the original flame wars in the first place.

i plan to keep a close eye on every post that comes in here. if you should be posting in japanese ninjutsu... then thats where you should post.

thanks in advance for playing nice.

peace
-mt moderator-

(none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - then they should go with the japanese ninjutsu... i'm sure there is room over there. this is for "american" ninjutsu styles... hence the name. "AN".

its all on what the american founder claims. there could be an american shihan teaching buj,gen,jen... etc. they claim to teach ninjutsu as taught in japan. the schools currently aknowledged here are claiming to teach ninjutsu for the american people/culture.

peace

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training.
Tew and Bussey do not have this.

the schools currently aknowledged here are claiming to teach ninjutsu for the american people/culture.Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.mod note:
your attempts to "fraud bust" have no place here. you can find any information you need about tew and bussey's training using the search function on this site.

-mt moderator-

Perhaps first defining Traditional Ninjutsu, (Good Luck), then define "American Ninjutsu using that as a datum.
Well, the definition for American ninjutsu has been posted and possibly may be altered as this thing gets going. We should NOT have to define American Ninjutsu based on what Japanese tradition or practitioners have to say about it. They should worry about their own art!

Nimravus, OK so you could be happy that we are no longer in the Japanese forum, now I think you would be happy with a forum called Wannabe Ninjers or something degrading. Is Toshindo is the only legit offbreak, then should there not just be a Toshindo forum?

This is all getting a little silly isn't it.
This is completely silly! This proves that some of the Japanese ninjutsu practitioners on MT are only out to cause problems with their elitist mentality. This was split do basically get away from all this mess. Why do they care what we do? Go back to your forum for gosh sakes!

Don't tell me you've never heard of things like Mu Te Jinen ryu Goshinjutsu, Brian McCarthy, Wayne L Roy's own style, Ryu San Ryu and the like (none of which are American though, but they're what I could think of right now - never said there aren't any more Bujinkan offshoots though)?
If they do not have an American founder they don't belong here. How hard is that to understand?

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.
Nimravus, this forum doesn't concern you. Who has been considered as AN is an administration issue.

Poor choices of examples, I'll admit that. My point was that there are more Bujinkan offshoots than To Shin Do.

Yes, even in America.

This is completely silly! This proves that some of the Japanese ninjutsu practitioners on MT are only out to cause problems with their elitist mentality. This was split do basically get away from all this mess. Why do they care what we do? Go back to your forum for gosh sakes!
I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu.

I will, as of right now, but I don't practice ninjutsu.
No, you practice Bujinkan Budo taijutsu and should be posting in the JN forum. I believe their charter is clear on that.

If you are going to stick with the guidelines Kaith put up in his first post in this sticky, Tew and Bussey needs to go. Also, you need to do a check-up on what the term ninjutsu means. I'd say the most accurate version of American "ninjutsu" you can find is what CIA/NSA etc. are dealing with nowadays.

IMO, Tew and Bussey belong in the AN section due to the fact that they do not follow the more traditional format of Ninjutsu.

Mike

Tew and Bussey do not have this.

Like I said, the boys over at Langley are more qualified to do that than Rick Tew or Robert Bussey.

I disagree. If you look at Kaiths post, the very first paragraph describes what falls under the term "AN".

Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

Here is his first paragraph above.

In the final paragraph, he states this.


American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training.

That being said, in effect Bussey did learn from a Japanese instructor, but created his own way of teaching. An American teaching HIS blend of a Japanese art.

Mike

True Bussey did train with Hatsumi, he did make it to 4th dan. Though that has been explained to me as not being a "good" 4th dan it was still a ranking given by the Kan. He no longer claims to teach Ninjutsu, so sort of a moot point. If the contention too is that what you are learning is not Ninjutsu but BBT then why all this fuss. When I was a Bujinkan member it was being advertised as Ninjutsu, so call it what it is.
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.

I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politics

True Bussey did train with Hatsumi, he did make it to 4th dan. Though that has been explained to me as not being a "good" 4th dan it was still a ranking given by the Kan. He no longer claims to teach Ninjutsu, so sort of a moot point. If the contention too is that what you are learning is not Ninjutsu but BBT then why all this fuss. When I was a Bujinkan member it was being advertised as Ninjutsu, so call it what it is.
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.

I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politicsgood point and well said.:D

People, a few more minor points. I've got a migraine, so this won't be my normal "feel good" style.

1- A name was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
2 - A definition was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
3- A delination of accepted content was needed. Again, I used the one suggested by the moderator.

All -3- items can be reworded at a later time, provided that it can be done in a civil manner. If enough traffic is generated, I have no problem spinning off seperate forums for Hayes, Tew, etc. I would have set up seperate forums for each of the X-Kans however my understanding is that at least 1 of those groups prefers that you don't.

American Ninjutsu was selected over the other possible names as a starting point. It may change, it may not.

Now, Stop the sandbox pissing immediately or I'll toss -ALL- the damned ninja forums. You people are currently generating around 95% of the complaints and reports we are getting. This crap ends. Now.

Kaith, good way to end your post. I agree with you. A call was put out for for ideas and I think I gave you some. People whining about their guys lack of credintials or excess thereof is not condusive to moving this dsicussion forward.

I actually read your post and caught the part that said it's a working model. I posted some ideas. Twirling a vacuum cleaner around by an above mentioned Ninjer Soke is on the Internet. Posting facts is not fraud busting, unless the facts bust a fraud. Sorry about that.

I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha. That the Bujinkan is normally considered ninjutsu would be semantically incorrect. However, I think all agree that it is the Source of all the off-shoots, whether through trained students, "trained students" or inspiration for the wanna-bes.

I think if the Non-Bujinkan types spent some time defining who they are they could really make some headway into being accepted. It is this huge overarching tendancy amongst them to vast tracts of hyperbole that really gets the bile up on people who train in the other three traditions. You're forcing us to beleive your made up stories about Ninja Shaolin warrior gods? Really? Wow! I never knew...

As for being traditional, I don't believe the Bujinkan is traditional either. It is an accretion of nine koryu or old schools. Those are Traditional. Is the word Tradition the right one? How do we define Tradition? Is folding Sensei's hakima traditional after a class in light-saber jutsu or pistol disarms? Is bowing and scraping Traditional? So, perhaps before we define Ninjutsu we should get a good working definition of Traditional and the other words they want to use to define their arts and businesses. American should be a pretty easy one. What other words so we need? Weapons? Ninja? Ninjutsu, obviously. Verifiable? What's wrong with being an unverifiable Ninja-type school? Think the guys in Corranado have any propblems not being verified. Langley probably doesn't care where the skills come from. Anyone else want to offer up some words for intelligent discussion and definition?

Newt Gingrich oncee said, " A room full of ordinary people could out-think a genius." If the adults could come to your thread here Kaith we could figure some of this out. I have seen little of what I asked for in the last line of my first post on this subject. I hold out hope.

Kaith,

I think it is great the way it is. Let the Japanese art practitioners figure out what they want to do. I don't think anyone else that considers themselves American Ninjutsu is making the fuss. Why don't we leave it as is and see what happens. That way you and the administators can see where and who the real fuss is coming from.

This is already a big enough change obviously for some (don't know why). Leave it alone and see what's up.

On that last note, I just wanted to say I love ALL of you VERY much!!! :) I am honored to be one of SKH's students and I am honored to be able to discuss the differences that make us who we are. EVERYONE has a place here and we should appreciate what Kaith has set up for us. I respect ALL you fellow ninjutsu practitioners and I hope you have found some fullfillment no matter who has trained you. I respect all of them too especially since they could all kick my butt. LOL. Anyway, Kaith I hope we aren't the reason you are taking a vacation. Have fun anyway. I'll take some good points please...Thanx!!!:-partyon:

to all the "an'ers" out there...

enjoy this forum and post often. invite your friends so that everyone can enjoy the infinate knowledge of martial talk.

peace
-mt moderator-

I know this is a tad off-topic, but since it was mentioend...

I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha.

I don't believe this is true for two principal reasons:

1) Any dichotomy between "samurai" and "ninja" is, well, silly. The groups people identify as "ninja" (the Iga-shu and Koga-shu) were (usually) the samurai of their respective provinces.

2) The "six samurai/three ninja" equation is not very accurate, either. Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu all have overt connections to the "ninja".

See the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.

Laterz.

ISee the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.

Laterz.i agree... please see the "traditional ninjutsu" forum for more info.
-mt moderator-

Enjoy yourselves. And don't get hurt. The Japanese Buyu need figure nothing out in regards to credibility. That is the realm of the Fraud ninja ryu and the Authentic Koga ryuha and with one exception the American experience.

It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.

I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.

Robert

PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.

Enjoy yourselves. And don't get hurt. The Japanese Buyu need figure nothing out in regards to credibility. That is the realm of the Fraud ninja ryu and the Authentic Koga ryuha and with one exception the American experience.

It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.

I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.

Robert

PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.Say what? Did ANYONE understand what this guy is talking about? Maybe only the Buj guys can... perhaps I need to spend more time in the Traditional ninjutsu forum to be able to understand what he's talking about!:idunno:

kinda confused myself:idunno:.

OK if you're going to give me bad points, at least tell me why or at least just write something smart a** to make me laugh. Thanks!!!

Checking people's spelling in their posts is a little childish, especially when you spell words like 'miasma' incorrectly :)

I hope this forum generates what the mods hoped it would. I would hate to see it shut down (and the JN forum also) because I love reading, and occasionally participating, in these threads. I happen to loathe the term 'American Ninjutsu' for the same reason I hate Tae Kwan Do dojangs advertising themselves as Karate...but that doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun and exchanging good information.

What's wrong with 'Neo-Ninjutsu'?? :uhyeah:

I am a Bujinkan member, I practice Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu which includes authentic ninjutsu.

I do not practice (officially, or formerly) as part of an American Ninjitsu / Neo-Ninja / Hybrid MA / MMA / Etc. dojo.

However, I am an American. I do practice ninjutsu as part of the art-style that I study. I also incorporate principles of the above mentioned AN / N-N / HMA/ MMA styles that have evolved out of our country's exposure to Japanese ninjutsu and its influence on the world.

Am I allowed to post here?

I sense that some of us are trying to make enemies out of members of our "rival" MA organizations / styles. (re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space :p ).

We're all budoka here. We are not enemies. If we become enemies, we may battle eachother like the honorable (or not) warriors that we are (or may in fact not be).

Share information; please be honest with eachother and with yourselves.
Conflicts seem to arise often because people cannot agree on what is or is not real when it comes to discussing aspects of these arts. Fraud-busting and the like (re: Nimravus' posts) occur because people are blatently using terms incorectly, or are otherwise lying or misleading to the public - even accidentally. As long as people understand exactly what it is that they are doing and have a frame of reference based on what is factually known then they can make honest decisions with themselves. And carry on merrily.

<sigh>

Just wanted to say, let's not be afraid to talk to one another - regardless of style - we're not sharing secret ninja knowledge or anything, just talking about our training experiences as martial artists.

You may decide among yourselves if you want to have American Ninjitsu separate from general Neo-Ninjitsu. If you're already drawing lines in the sand, might as well have a lot of lines, right?

I(re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space :p ).Shizen Shigoku,

Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip! :)

I'll try to limit my posts from now on.

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be AN

Great video resources on American Ninja here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/6301963679/002-2799917-0585638?v=glance
Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?

American Ninjutsu - .
JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool: ;)

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.

No.

Is karate simply "Okinawan Boxing"?? Is wrestling simply "Western Jujutsu"?? Are Ainu hunters simply "Native American Japanese"??

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?
The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.

Right, right... :rolleyes:

JOKE (well sort of) warning:

Wouldn't "American NINJUTSU" simply be CIA training? Espionage, weapons, intelligence gathering and interpretation, intelligence network management.....

Ninjutsu, based on my little contact with it, seems to be more about objectives and mission than about 'art' - though art can help get the job done.no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits."without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying :eek:

A Discovery Channel episode is out actually that compares the similarities between modern day CIA tactics and ninjutsu. I was very proud to see An-Shu Hayes be the authority to speak on behalf of ninjutsu. BTW, he is American :supcool: ;)
Yes, and Ed Parker was a Hawaiian, so shouldn't his system be "Hawaiian Kenpo"?

Let me put this another way.

You are calling this section "American Ninjutsu".
But Ninja, Ninjutsu, etc are Japanese words.
There never were American Ninjas.
Show me 1 historical document that states otherwise.

Mr. Hayes does not teach Ninjutsu, he teaches To Shin Do.
What is To Shin Do?
"To-Shin Do techniques are based on an ancient and well-tested system of warrior disciplines handed down by nine historical Japanese family lineages. At the same time, our training program is built around a very modern approach to handling the kind of threats and confrontations most likely in our own contemporary culture."
From http://www.skhquest.com/training/ToShinDoDescription.aspx

"Today, I offer courses in the modern 21st Century ninjutsu application that I refer to as To-Shin Do, based on ninja principles but updated for the real threats of today."
From http://www.skhquest.com/articles/ancientmodernninjutsu.aspx

Based on his own words, he is not teaching "Ninjutsu".

Regarding Mr. Tew, on his website he has the quote "As American as Apple Pie".
Unfortunately, it seems he doesn't understand what that really means. People believe Americans invented Apple Pie. Apple Pie was infact English. ""Thy breath is like the steame of apple-pyes," wrote Robert Greene in "Arcadia" in 1590."

Misspelling a few foriegn words, and borrowing concepts and techniques and tossing them into a blender does not an art make. Thousands of McDojos do that all the time, using similar words as his. What makes his system any different than theirs?
While he makes many valid points on his website, especially concerning BJJ/JJ, it still leaves the point of why call it NinjItsu, and not say, JKD, unanswered. Like JKD, his martial system is a combination of borrowed techniques and concepts, tossed in a blender and flavored with American Apple Pie.

What is to stop me, from doing the same and opening some schools, and calling it "Real American Ninjutsu."? If I did, and gave out some black belts, would I then have earned a spot here?

You can call me troll, and you can smack me as often as you like in the rep system. What you can not escape is the fact that you can not justify the use of a foriegn word for an American system. And, before anyone says "Well, he doesn't", I counted over 10 uses of the word "Ninja", "Ninjutsu" and "NinjItsu" on his home page alone. Oh, but thats not really it. His system is Rick Tew Martial Science. Right. That is why on his home page he makes a distinct seperation between RTMS and NinjItsu.
"Training Today's Ninja - Rick Tew's Martial Science and Tew Ryu Ninjitsu is your source for up to date total warrior information and training. 2 seperate items.

If the reason for havign a seperate area is so that the Americans can have their own variation, then you must include Ashida Kim and HaHa Lung as well. Both are also Americans, teaching Ninja.

Your line in the sand is weak.

Right, right... :rolleyes:
Good response. Can't refute the facts, resort to retort.

"without a vision, the people perish". i think i read that somewhere. bester your lack of vision is terrifying :eek:
Christian quotations don't apply to me, nor does the visions of Black Elk.

I will however return the quote, with a quote: "The more gross the fraud the more glibly will it go down, and the more greedily be swallowed, since folly will always find faith where impostors will find imprudence."

""If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of ninjutsu, devoid of the influences of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secret for becoming invincible -- the attainment of the 'mind and eyes of god'."" -- Takamatsu Toshitsugu

Of course, the later is that "Traditional" stuff you reject, right?

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314 Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Enson
-MT Moderator-

no cia training is something that the cia do.
american ninjutsu training is something an'ers do. am i just pointing out the obvious? its like saying isn't army training what the police acedemy teaches? two different things.

peace
Actually it would be more like saying that the Marine corps infantry training is similar to Army infantry training. And the answer is yes, they are similar...in tools/goals/philosophy....but may differ in some specific details.

Again, I admit to a small amount of Ninjitsu knowledge, but a friend and student of Ninjutsu described the historical Ninja as the 'Japanes Medieval Special Forces' so I don't think that if you compare goals, tactics, intent, structure that it is too far a reach.

What was the purpose of the clan training? What topics were covered? What tools/weapons were they trained in? What command and control issues did they address?....and it goes on.

The biggest difference I can see is the scale because of the governmental structure. Modern CIA/Intel operators work for a nationalistic structure and not a clan structure, but the function and use of the training is essentially the same to me. What it has become in terms of hobby/commercial application is based on what went before, but - as with all commerical martial arts - has had all the 'meaningful stuff' condensed into the things that can be trained legally and responsibly for the day we live in when in the past the training was different.

I would argue they differ substantially, loki.

Different social structure, different cultural values, different level of technology and natural resources, different motivatons and goals, different political environment, so on and so on.

They are similar in the sense that they both specialize(d) in "unconventional warfare", but that's about it.

Bester, Dude. I feel your pain. However I suggest you leave the "Amercian Ninjer" types to their our devices. That they c annot see the obvious is because they do not want to see the obvious. They train in fraudulent systems. Period.

To the Gentleman who suggested the "American Ninjer" types try to catalogue the differences in their different marketing strategies, I have already tried to engage this crew in intelligent conversation but it didn't fly. Too bad it would be to the advantage os some of them to be able to say on the ANFS ( AMERICAN NINJER FRAUD SCALE) My school ranks a 5.9 on a scale of 10. This would be emprical though still somewhat subjective. It would take lots of work and thought. This is the wrong forum for it. This is the forum for Ninjer reach-arounds.

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from?

To the people who are giving me negative karma points. Please note that it doesn't affect me in my real life. My girlfreind still loves me, my cat still hangs out here, My son loves me, My teachers put up with me and my students haven't gone away. I am employed and making money. The Karma doesn't seem to be working on me. It only makes you feel better in this pathetic little world that means so much to y'all. Cool. If you had any man parts of signififgance you would leave your name each time you drill me for karma. Don't worry I won't drill you back, it doesn't matter in real life.

Robert

What is the difference between American Ninjutsu and Modern Ninjutsu?

If is is a western version of a Japanese system, would the terminology be written in English, much like American Kenpo (I hold a 2nd Degree Black Belt)?
Also I believe at one time it was called Hawaiin Kenpo, then it became American Kenpo. Also isn't the term Ninjitsu incorrect? To be a true system of Ninjutsu shouldn't the founder have a recognised background in the traditional system i.e Bujinkan under Hatsumi Soke? What makes a true off shoot system in the first place?

Sorry this debate has me enthralled...my brain is working way too hard on a Friday afternoon.

Later
Patrick

Alot of that's been covered in the Japanese section already...long reading, I'll sumarize for ya.

Some of those in the Modern/American did train in legitimate ninjutsu. They then added their own improvements and modernizations, some cultural, others egotistical.

Others trained under fakers, realized the fraud and tried to legitimatize their own work to correct the failings of their teacher.

Others are flat out frauds, in it for the money alone, and unable to defeat wet peat moss without cheating like a WWE champion.

Ninjitsu is either not a real word, ot means something totally different.

Legitimate Ninjutsu with verifiable lineages traces back to Hatsumi.

Be careful in the AN forum as some are sensitive when you point certain truths out.
Other folks welcome new information and have open minds and empty cups.

Shizen Shigoku,

Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip! :)

I'll try to limit my posts from now on.This not an official warning, just a nudge. Posting merely to increase your belt rank is against MT rules. That is why the Bar and Grill was created, to discourage such tactics. If it becomes apparent a member is doing something to circumvent this rule, their posts will be culled and or combined and disciplinary measures will be taken.

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.

If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must. But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way? We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?). What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this. Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.

At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.Correction: American "Ninjutsu" forum and not American "Ninja." There is a big difference. The second one never existed. The first one is Kraith's invention to start us on the right track.

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from? Robertmoko/robert... as you might see i have started many threads since the time i joined martial talk. not for any specific answers but to generate dialogue on mt... so youngins like yourself would have a place to post. you might also take notice on the dates of every thread. not many recent questions have been asked on your side of the fence by myself. maybe a passing mod. can confirm this for me. your continueing dead end arguement has been going on long before you found this forum on your yahoo search engine.
if a traditionalist would post here... without obvious agendas (such as yourself) we would have no problem with it. now the real question is why would you take the time to "troll" our side of the fence if you are so fulfilled on the traditional side? grass is greener maybe?:idunno: your obvious insecurities are oozing.:eek:
I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. i personally think you should do it. i encourage it with the upmost vigor. please? i hold andrew, gmunoz, and the other "yes ninjers". to the highest esteem. they are good people and should be respected. i would stand by them anyday then have to be in an organization where racism and elitism is practiced by so many. if that is what traditional ninjutsu is about i'm glad i study "an". maybe michael pearce should get on again and scold the "trolls" for making the trad. ninjers look bad?

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be ANThen what do we do about all the Ninjitsu schools out there that decided to drop the word Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu but teach Ninjitsu none the less to a certain degree and don't want to be included in these arguements? Why not try this: Only have a Ninjutsu forum for those schools that teach 100% Ninjutsu or 100% Ninjitsu? No mixing of any other artform is allowed. No Samurai, Kenjutsu, Kenpo, Kung Fu. If its not 100%, it doesn't belong in either forum. I'd like to see who then qualifies. Think maybe Kaith got it right when he mentions that maybe its time to just drop ALL Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Forums. No one seems to know what it is anyway.

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… :rolleyes: …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.

Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must.Despite my reputation, I'd rather not. But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way?Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult. We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?).It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed. What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this.The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue. Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you. I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig

I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.The Sniping Policy

Effective 9/21/04

Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.Found Here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

For the record your suspension was for two weeks because it was the second time you were suspended.

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… :rolleyes: …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.
"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.

"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.



That is pricless :rofl:
I was thinking maybe "top with a sour grape".......

Ok, joke that some will get, and others simply be pissed about aside.


My problem with this forum is it seems to cater only to a select, elitist few. You can not ask certain questions because that is "bashing". Other questions when asked you are told to "go search", rudely. Anyone who has any real traditional training or experience is told to "Go Away".

How does this censorship help?

There are enough quality martial arts instructors excluded by this forum as included.

What is American Ninjutsu?
You limit the scope to 3 people. 2 with questionable backgrounds, though we are not allowed to ask those questions without moderator abuse of power and tag teaming.
What about all those others who lie just outside the line?
If we have American Ninjutsu, do we have English Ninjutsu? African Ninjutsu? etc?

"Stop being a TROLL!!!" is all I hear.
Well, I am asking questions. If that is trolling, then shut the damn board down already.

If the world insists that the art you study is crap, and everywhere you go you hear the same comments about its origins being fraudulent, maybe, just maybe, you might want to take the fingers out of your ears and listen?

I ask questions. I make comments. You can react, or respond.
Why is it that whenever I ask questions in here, the moderator and his tag team partner there get defensive, react negatively and keep ordering me to leave?

I have questions on Hayes. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed to post them in the wrong forum?

I have questions on Tew. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed not only not post them, but to leave unless I am a student of his?

Why all the fear of simple questions?
Why the inability to respond to them politely?
Why the accusations of agendas, trolling, etc?
Why is the scope of this forum so narrowly defined?

I will probable not be around to see any replies. I'm sure I'll be seeing a vacation shortly for daring to ask questions in this forum.

Despite my reputation, I'd rather not.Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult.It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed. The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue. I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.
The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig
Good enough. I will report any and all suspicious posts from traditionalists as bad posts and pray to God someone does something about it. I sure hope you keep your end of the bargain.

Can we please get back to the topic here?

Here Comes Krystal Nacht as sponsored by the "American Ninjer" wanna-bes. What a giggle.

Enson, Thanks for your wonderful attempt to educate a younin(sic) like me. While the sentiment may be true your facts are grossly incorrect. This forum has been instigated not to research your 'style' but to support and validate your 'style'.

All of your little arguments to date are subjective. Everyone posting in here is subjected to a two-part questioning process; Does this person train in a fraudulent art as support by our little cabal or do they train in a verifiable system; and Are they saying nice things about us or asking questions? A negative answer to both parts of the questions and the you let slip your intellectual chihuahuas of sniping and dispersions. Truly fearsome.

Instead any attempt to quantify they various skill levels of the various wanna-be sokes goes down in a flurry of posts calling for a martial cleansing. Nice. Brown is your favourite shirt colour?

Not there is anything wrong with this NOT being a place where Ninjutsu is discussed, there is nothing wrong with this being a comfort zone for you. It's OK to have a blankie. But if this is the unworded aim of this "American Ninjutsu" ( And Snowjob take note of how the American Ninjers types spell the name of HamandCheeses "art") forum then your mission statement or vision at the beginning of it should be changed, Enson.

I do think that it is incorrect and you have misled Kaith with your agenda for this forum. I have attempted to start an intellectual discussion of the various level of claims of the myriad of ninjer Sokey-Dokeys out there but am met with yapping of the upmost(sic) ineffectiness.

And now one of the Chihuahua brothers wants to report every post. Oh Gawd that's hilarious. Let me guess, leibensraum? uh huh.

Re-check your own agenda Enson then come back when you can be more subjective about this whole thing. You are too close to it to be objective. Nor would I go about shaking your little finger at people and saying they have an agenda.

I am an ignorant man. There's tons I don't know and would love to. I have a buddy who's a robotics prof. Damn. Cool. I am utterly ignorant of robotics. The definition of ignorant is " 1 having or showing a lack of knowledge or of education in things in general. 2 uninformed about or unaware of a specific subject 3 lacking social training." The Penguin English dictionary.

Now flip on over to the Cross-stepping thread. There you are asking about cross-stepping. Then pages of uses and how it is a valid technique in many arts, because, well it is. And yet you go on to argue for pages with all the other people there how he, Enson, doesn't think it's valid as it's not in his system. No agenda there right?

Personally I think your little sensei-boy will come out OK if we do a public ranking on his claims. I think he has some training years ago in Budo, what would now be called dated or Jurriasic training by us with "real agendas" bwahahaha. He would certainly beat out types like Ferbes and Dux and Duncan in turn his claim is not as strong as Hayes shihan or possibly Bussey. Bottom of the list would be ninja clowns like Ashida Kim, those guys in Australia and buddy who trains in the "swampest places". Would it come out that Tew's, style is a fraudulent style of ninjutsu, sure. You already now this Enson but refuse to believe it. His style of dance is your comfort zone. This forum is not about growth, or learning, it's about what feels good to you. It feels good to tell the guys who do not train in what you want to train in that they are wrong. Good for you. Seems like sort of a closed mind to me.

Carry on as if you were normal.

If anyone else wants to start thread in the Traditional section whereby we can discuss the various scoring points for the frauds and maybe set up a group of objective critiera with which to measure them all by, I would fully support it. I have put some thought into it ealrier on in this thread, thinking it was called for however this is the wrong place for objective intellectual intercourse.

Well said Moko. Well said indeed.


Now, gmuñoz we can go back to discussing the parameters for this area, those that have been excluded, and those that have been somehow granted "legitimacy" OR we can go back to your personal vendetta against me, and anyone who does not wish to accept things without question.

I thought this thread was to discuss the charter for this section, not to play out you and your tag-team partners personal issues and problems.

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal. :rolleyes:

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal. :rolleyes:


Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.

All this is from Rick Tew’s website:

POINTS OF REALITY
Too often in the martial arts, students learn self-defense that is unrealistic and possibly detrimental to the defender. When it comes to practicality, fight with facts, don't be fooled by your training.
1)Most fights end up on the ground.
Prepare by improving your grappling skills.
2)There are no rules and no judges in combat.
If it works, use it, and don't stop until it does.
3)Kicks above the waist are unrealistic.
It is better to be safe than sorry.
4)How you train is how you will fight.
If it is not contact you will be surprised.
5)Point sparring is not realistic for true combat.
Pull your punches and pull your chances.
6)Most people punch to the face or head.
Get used to hooks and crosses, wild and fast.
7)Attackers don't hold their punch in the air.
Learn to control your opponent, not dance around a frozen one.
8)Everything is forgotten in a fight.
All defenses will be natural reactions from years of practice.
9)Punches and kicks can hurt you too.
The attacker might also be prepared, do not underestimate an opponent.
10)Most punches and kicks are off target, thus useless.
Don't waste energy, focus on primary striking areas.

1) This is some PR the Gracies came up with years ago. I have yet to see any stats on it to prove it one way or the other. From my own personal experiences and from seeing other fights I would say that figure is false.
2) No s****, now tell us something we don’t know.
3) Funny I saw Rick Tew do not one but damn near all of his kicks to the head on his training videos. Specifically tape #2 & #4....especially #4!!!! In video #4 the kicks looked like they came straight out of a Tae Kwan Do Class 101 manual, mostly to the head and many high spinning back kicks, with one or two Muay Thai knee strikes thrown in and some hand movements that can be seen in ½ dozen different MA.
4) 4,5,6,7…..common sense.
8) I beg to differ.
9) :rolleyes: still not very enlightening.
10) Most people swing in a fit of rage….maybe that is a contributing factor.

So would you say Rick Tew is a good representation of what American Ninjutsu is?

Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.
The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?

Now, gmuñoz we can go back to discussing the parameters for this area,
The parameters have already been set Bester. Please refer to the charter.

The parameters have already been set Bester. Please refer to the charter.
No, they have not.

Kaith said "If the posted charter is inadequate, we are open to modification. Please use this thread to discuss and debate those modifications."

I believe the charter is inadequate as it excludes qualified non-Japanese, while including un-qualified pretenders.

You stated: The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?

What is Legitimate Ninjutsu Training?
You must disqualify any lineage tracing to Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or HaHa Lung. They are proven frauds.



I have been trying to discuss and debate.
YOU have been attacking me for disagreeing with you.

I ask again. Are you able to cease your personal vendetta against me and engage in a polite discussion of the charter for this forum?

You stated:
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?

What is Legitimate Ninjutsu Training?
You must disqualify any lineage tracing to Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or HaHa Lung. They are proven frauds.?in one word... "yes". can't you read?:rolleyes:

ashida kim, frank dux, ha ha lung all claim to do things as done in japan. take your ignorant arguement somewhere else.
none of the frauds claim to do things for the american culture.

What

Is

Legitimate

Ninja

Training?

3) Funny I saw Rick Tew do not one but damn near all of his kicks to the head on his training videos. Specifically tape #2 & #4....especially #4!!!! In video #4 the kicks looked like they came straight out of a Tae Kwan Do Class 101 manual, mostly to the head and many high spinning back kicks, with one or two Muay Thai knee strikes thrown in and some hand movements that can be seen in ½ dozen different MA.
?like mr. miyagi?:rolleyes:

Hey! Miyagi is Japanese. He not arrowed here.

What

Is

Legitimate

Ninja

Training?Bester, what's up man? Seems to me that perhaps some people have become offended, and don't want to co-operate. However, from the staff discussions that I have been privy to, my understanding is thus:

Legitimate ninjutsu training would be having trained either beneath Hatsumi, or someone else that he has qualified to teach. As you may well know, there are a few folks who's arts have evolved down their own paths, and are either excommunicated from the organisation, or no longer teach the pure art of budo taijutsu, rather, they have integrated other concepts from other sources. So they may have developed a method that is flavoured as ninjutsu, but is not pure.

Please bear in mind, this is just from stuff that I have followed in various places around here. I have no specific ninjutsu training, though my instructor does have his bb. I am uncertain as to the specific lineage, but I believe it to be Bujinkan.

Hope I was helpful, folks. :asian:

Just to add, I don't believe this forum is intended to really be exclusive to US organisations, and is a work in progress.

Just to add, I don't believe this forum is intended to really be exclusive to US organisations, and is a work in progress.thats exaclty right.

So why am I receiving so much grief when I am doing exactly what the administrator said to do?

You stated:
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?If you are an American and show legitimate ninjutsu training that can be traced back to Japanese lineage, and claim not to do things as in Japan but in America, then YES, you can submit to be listed on this forum.

THat is what the charter is meaning. How difficult is this? If one claims to do things as done in Japan then they need to submit to the Japanese Ninjutsu forum, ie., Ralph Severe Kamiyama and his system. He stipulates he does things as in Japan. He should be in JN.

So why am I receiving so much grief when I am doing exactly what the administrator said to do?Bester, bear in mind that these guys were the focus of constant persecution whilst in the Japanese section. It is not surprising to me that they are seeing attack more often than necessary, and perhaps the agressive nature of questioning is reinforcing that perception now.

I'm not criticizing you here, Bester. Just articulating my take. I could be wrong, or crazy. Or both, or neither. Take your pick.

:asian:

like mr. miyagi?:rolleyes:

Sorry, don't follow your meaning. Can you explain?

Gentlemen, please, enough. The various issues and complaints from all sides are under discussion by the admins and supermods. Due to the large number of complaints, please give us a few days to properly process them.

Please refer to the warning now stickied on this forum.
No more flaming or other abuse will be tollerated.

Bester, Dude. Good luck. There is an agenda here at work with a little cabal of kids who want this to be a place where the specious claims of their Sokey Dokeys are considered legitimate. They bring this on themselves.

If the original three "American Ninjutsu" ryuha or schools I guess, are "verified, please show work. ie show us where Hayes shihan has trained, with whom, when, for how long, rank achieved, teachers lineage. This should not be a problem. Then show the work for Tew and Bussey. Opps! Look a personal attack! I'm asking a hard question. Bwahahahhaha.

The original charter reads as such:

Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.

American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."

This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction."

End quote.

Things to note. It seems whoever wrote the charter included people who trained in Japan. There goes Tew. (Opps, another personal attack.) It is my understanding Tew has not been to Japan. No need he wouldn't learn anything there, I'll bet. Twenty years ago Tew would be 10? 15? Cool. Bussey was there and if the guys do their due diligence as per their rules they will find the info on his experience out there. I have it here at home, too.

This is the line that is providing lots of grist for the "personal attacks".

"The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick Tew’s Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert Bussey’s schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above"

Really? Show work. Until then none of the schools qualify. Deal with it. Life is rough and if you link up with losers who can't finght their own fights you get to lose for them. Show work.
Now I can just hear the kids crying, "Please help."
Someone else will say, "Well who are you to ask that we prove what we are?" No one, dude. But if you hang it out there you better be able to deal with the pain when people stick things in it to see if it's real.
So, what I would suggest for the people who are interested in a mature discussion, which looks like the stubble jumper dude and the P10 guy is we could start trying to set the criteria for the kids. Both Gmunoz and Enson are affiliated with two of the schools in question and once the grown-ups have figuered out the OBJECTIVE (Look it up!) questions and criteria they can do the home-work and leg work
Now here's the neat part, they could then apply it to other schools and we would have a scale of fraudiness (Word?) Then give it a name like the Knowledge-based Ninjutsu Objective Barometer. Each school will then earn a score on the KNOB scale. How cool would that be?

Robert

PS Enson, the bit about american culture is not where you want to go with an International readership.

That is pricless :rofl:
I was thinking maybe "top with a sour grape".......

Check this out......a "negative ding" from Enoson the "Mod" for my post above

your not smart are you? -enson

and one from a side kick of his no doubt.....

You're an idiot

So ENSON, I am an idiot am I?
Fine, send me an email and explain why you think so.

The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?


That's all fine and well but what my question was how are they different technically?
For example……I looked at Rick Tew’s home instruction demo video #2 with him twirling those “num-chucks” around like something that came out of a cheap movie and I just can’t imagine folks at the Bujinkan doing something like that, especially since it is an Okinawan weapon.
This is the kind of thing that I am wanting to understand about how they differ........seem what I mean? Things like RTMS does spinning back kicks, American Ninjas do XXXXXXXX, Japanese Ninjas do XXXXXX......stuff like that.

Thread locked for administrative review.

-Michael Billings
MT S-Mod

After reviewing this thread, I am reopening it. Two members have been suspended already. I am adding a third. Moko for violation of the sniping policy,

If I might interject a couple of simple thoughts:

The original "Charter" is fatally flawed in that it actually eliminates every neo-ninjitsu ryu ha. The introductory sentence (regarding the "root") is actually untrue. The remainder of the introductory paragraph is also untrue. Sounds good - just not true. Allow me to present a train of thought administration might consider:

*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";
*Ninjutsu (by definition expressed by Hatsumi Sensei) is the study of the arts dealing with how the Japanese Ninja accomplished their accomplishments. Thus, Ninjutsu is concerned with the Japanese Ninja and is enveloped within the age of the living Ninja. Anything having to do with post-Ninja era warfare would Not be a concern with Ninjutsu by Hatsumi's own definition. Thus, the study of the use of automatic firearms would not be a concern or included in Traditional Ninjutsu as automatic firearms were not inclusive the study of the Japanese Ninja's ways of accomplishments during their (the Ninja/Shinobi) era of existance. Another example would be modern aircraft, computerized techniques etc.;
*If a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu Ryu started to include modern sciences or evolved outside of the traditional study of the way of the Ninja, that traditional schools would lose its traditionalism and actually become a "Neo" school;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools, on the otherhand, would cover a time period from circa 300 BC to the present thus covering the time periods before, during and after the age of the Japanese Ninja;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools are not limited by any definitions or other parameters defined within Traditionalism. Neo-Ninjitsu does not possess a requirement of any Japanese ties as its "roots" but to first, Sun Tzu. The term "Ninjitsu" is not found in many styles and schools that we would consider Ninjitsu schools not because of any resemblence to any physical nature of the Ninja, but they are to be considered Ninjitsu in that these schools do rely heavily on such skills as stealth, invisibility, deception, subterfuge, clandestine fighting and other terms originating from the Art of War and accepted by both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu philosophy. Also embedded within both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu are the philosophies of Spirit, Mind and Body. These three catagories were not inventions of the Japanese Ryu but were accepted by the Japanese and other non-japanese schools. Neo schools accept these conventions as originating from a pre-Ninja warring state's era.
*A Non-Japanese Founder of a martial arts school has every right to use the term Ninjitsu as these Founders are not expressing any ties to Japan, but ties to the philosophy of warfare expressed and established by those practicing the Art of War. The concentration of these schools is in that of total warfare. How to defeat ANY existing system of warfare or we might say: the study of how ANYONE today accomplishes winning. Not like the definition of Ninjutsu which specifies how the Ninja accomplished in Japan, but Neo's are concerned how ANYONE and EVERYONE is, are was, able to "accomplish."

I will admit that it is unfortunate that the term "Ninjitsu" was adopted by the Neo Schools and this adoption did cause tremendous confusion not only due to it's romanized spelling (which actually does infer that there is a difference in the two schools) but also because one can easily also infer some type of Japanese discipline. But, as anyone can see today, the term is being used in a much diminished capacity in todays schools. I can foresee that, within a short time period, few Neo-Ninjitsu schools will no longer use the term and will instead adopt such terms a "Martial Science" schools or these schools will simply drop any monikers as in Mr. Bussy's schools or Dux Ryu.

Nothing I have expressed above should be considered any absolute truth by any standard but is expressed hopefully to assist the administration in establishing this section of their forum. Right of wrong, hopefully it will be food for thought.

This is the kind of thing that I am wanting to understand about how they differ........seem what I mean? Things like RTMS does spinning back kicks, American Ninjas do XXXXXXXX, Japanese Ninjas do XXXXXX......stuff like that.Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.
I disagree with this. It implies that traditionalists are unable to deal with modern situations.

Jeff

I disagree with this. It implies that traditionalists are unable to deal with modern situations.

Jeffi don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

peace

Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.

I see......so does this mean you train with modern weapons like an AK-47 and things along those lines?

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

Again...your wording gives the assumption (incorrectly) that the Bujinkan, Genbukan and Jinenkan do not.

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today. just depends on how you read it.

peace


So having said that.....what kind of modern weapons and tactics are you training/in with?

Hrmmm..... I'm surprised that no one has addressed the spewage that was sojobow's last post. :rolleyes:

That's because there comes a time when you look at a post and know there's just too much typing involved to be worth it.

i don't see it that way. it just states that it is open to new weapons and tactics that are around today.

But the same thing can be said about the groups centered in Japan. Hatsumi has a book out on knife and pistol fighting, Tanemura has a video on how to use collapsing batons, etc.

Right now we have a thread in the forum devoted to arts centered in Japan on knife fighting. A troublemaker stepped in and said that the subject was not appropriate to the "Traditional Ninjutsu" section. This despite the fact that the description listed says that the forum is about arts found in Japan, and no mention of having to deal ONLY with old style stuff.

If the title of this forum is "modern", then no matter how many disclaimers and notices you give, I think that people will be unwilling to talk about pistols in the traditional section and swordsmanship here.

Valid concerns, and one which we can hopefully address as appropriate. My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.

I also understand that the "moderns" study some of the traditional weapons, and in many cases work in the tweaks to deal with the modern variants.

I don't see a vast difference in the end-result, just how you get there.

My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.
Adapting sword retention techniques to pistol retention is a good example of this.

Jeff

I see......so does this mean you train with modern weapons like an AK-47 and things along those lines? what i'm trying to make clear is there is allowances for new weapons. whatever the instructors in each school feel they want to integrate. not just say, "the ninja never used it so either will we"... i.e. tonfa, nunchuku, ninja to etc. each school is different so there might very well be some schools that teach ak-47 or how to fly a fighter jet. ours doesn't because those planes are darn expensive. hope this helps.
imo the bujinkan don't count as a ninjutsu school because from what i have read here, they only have a few kata that teach ninjutsu. also hatsumi is the founder of his style so he can integrate whatever he wants to... this just isn't the place to discuss hatsumi and the bujinkan.

peace

imo the bujinkan don't count as a ninjutsu school because from what i have read here, they only have a few kata that teach ninjutsu.

So, how many kata do you guys have that teach "ninjutsu"?? ;)

So, how many kata do you guys have that teach "ninjutsu"?? ;)"American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set “kata,” but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society."
this is from the charter. hope this helps.

Gee, that doesn't sound like Budo Taijutsu at all. Nope, nope, nope. :rolleyes:

Hrmmm..... I'm surprised that no one has addressed the spewage that was sojobow's last post. :rolleyes:Perhaps is it because some truth was within the post whether one admits it or not? The post was an attempt to open honest dialogue from another point of view.

Here is my first highlight statement: If its true, NASA, we have a problem as Kaith's opening would reveal some real logistical flaws. The greater problem is that its seems we constantly must have other's not Neo define what a Modern/Neo constitutes. Who is representing the Neo at these conventions on Ninjitsu? I do hope they have an open mind and leave their pre-conceived notions at the meeting room door.

First Statement: "*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";"

in one word... "yes". can't you read?:rolleyes:

ashida kim, frank dux, ha ha lung all claim to do things as done in japan. take your ignorant arguement somewhere else.
none of the frauds claim to do things for the american culture.This is blatantly false and, besides being counter-productive to this very important thread, is also counter-productive to what we all hope you grow to achieve here. We're all pulling for your success.

This is blatantly false and, besides being counter-productive to this very important thread, is also counter-productive to what we all hope you grow to achieve here. We're all pulling for your success.according to the charter this would not be false. it all depends on what is claimed. if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones "currently" (this means there can be additions)accepted are ones claiming to do things for the american culture.

*note* thanks for pulling for me!;)

if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section.
Except nowhere in the charter for that section does it make allowances for lineage claimed through a James Bond character, so he won't be joining us... ;)

Jeff

Except nowhere in the charter for that section does it make allowances for lineage claimed through a James Bond character, so he won't be joining us... ;)

Jefflol lol! :rofl:

Perhaps is it because some truth was within the post whether one admits it or not?

Or, perhaps you were presenting the point-of-view of your school and trying to pass it off as applying to all American ninjutsu.

First Statement: "*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";"

First off, none of the groups being represented here are a "ryuha".

Secondly, the "roots" of all the arts covered here are either in the Takamatsu-den or other modern martial arts schools. None of these guys just cracked open Sun Tzu one day, and decided to make up a martial art based on it. They learned their stuff from other, contemporary sources.

Of course, what is more than likely is that they are using a superficial translation of Sun Tzu to fabricate some false claim of authority. Which, frankly, is what seems to be going on here. But, the catcher is that this claim for authority is retroactive --- i.e., Sun Tzu "wisdom" is applied as a "source" for the art after the art has already been created from other sources.

Ta ta.

according to the charter this would not be false. it all depends on what is claimed. if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones "currently" (this means there can be additions)accepted are ones claiming to do things for the american culture.

*note* thanks for pulling for me!;)Another blatantly false statement: .......... if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones .......". Remember, I train daily and know what is said or not said. I am physically in the theatre in which you claim some knowledge of verbal and or physical truths. You are not. There is no record of our being or doing anything "as done in japan" that I am aware of. As I stated before, your type of statements do nothing to assist us in assisting Kaith. An yes, according to the charter (which is not written or codified in any stoneworks), quite a few of the "this's" would not be false. However, as stated, my contention is that the charter is itself flawed such that anyone using it will temperarily be justified in their juxtapositions until the charter is correct/amended. At that time, any current blatantly false statements have no use. And again, we are pulling for your success here. Continuation of 2nd, 3rd, 4th...hand opinions do nothing towards that success.

Hope the little one is well.

Valid concerns, and one which we can hopefully address as appropriate. My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.....I don't see a vast difference in the end-result, just how you get there.Well said, however, if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja. If the current practice includes anything not covered in the time period and locations of the living Ninja, then those practices are not by definition - Ninjutsu but are then associated with some modern hybrid. I don't want to infer that these extra-curricular activities are good or bad - only that they are not any type of classical japanese artform.

The end result is not in question. The question is differentiating Ninjutsu and Neo.

if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja.

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.I've already presented this information. I have not seen your request so I had no reason to provide it to you. A few of your school members even responded that the Book reference may have been incorrect and they provided what they thought was the correct Hatsumi Sensei Book. For your files, I will provide it again for the benefit of other readers of this thread since they should know what Hatsumi's own definition of Ninjutsu is. One would think his own students would already know this. Give me a few minutes to relocate it again. As Gov. Arnold said: "I'll be bock."

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.I'm back. Tried to use the quote function correctly this time.

Here is the exact quote, per your request. I also took the liberty to use the quote injected into a search engine and found another source which I will provide since, it seems, that Hatsumi Sensei and I are not to be believed. I added the bold typefaces and not the text.

The Quote:

"As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

Thus, according to the above, Ninjutsu is the study of the ways of accomplishments of the Ninja. To put it another way: "how the Ninja did what they did" - bad English and all.

The Source:

Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi: The Historical Ninja
Secondary Source: Bujinkan South Africa: http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

While reviewing the History of Ninjutsu webpage, I also hope that readers will also note the following quote taken directly from the page. Although I was given at least 20 negative red points as well as a name change to "Bonehead," here is the highest ranking member of the Bujinkan expressing the same statements as inherited from his own teacher as I have inherited from mine:

"Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T’ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor’s court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled."

So it seems that my multiple sources thus far are Dr. Hatsumi, Dr. Hatsumi's Teacher, my Hanshi. Everything I have presented to this Forum have like sources.

Thus, to belabor my point regarding the "root" portion of the Charter for this section:

""Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. ...." (Kaith Rustaz)

I maintain that this statement is incorrect as proven by Dr. Hatsumi's statement above and should be corrected to state that the "roots are founded in rich Chinese tradition, history, and culture...."

Also, this would remove the constraint of American Ninjutsu (Modern Ninjitsu) having schools that have to "qualify" utilizing some "Japanese" legitimizations. I would also believe that anyone in the United States Military and anyone outside of Japan would be welcomed here - and qualify to enter their school in this section - as long as that entity bel