I have taught self defense classes for women for many years.
Focusing on basic survival skills. I had one particular class that I was restricted from bringing in any male "attackers".

I found it hard to teach the techniques realisticly with this restriction. Most non-martial artist women do not attack with any force or commitment. I spent the entire class being both instructor and aggressor. Tough class to teach.

Any thoughts on how to make this type of class more realistic without sacrificing myself for the semester?

That's like teaching someone to swim without water? I know there are some body suits out there. They are little pricey, but this way they can beat the crap out of you and you don't get hurt.
Bob Thomas

i was an assistant instructor at a womens general self defence course for a while, and it is really hard to try to get them to hit with any force - almost impossible on eachother. The only way the instructuor found effective was to bring in assistants (read: kick bags with legs, like me), and tell the students - "Go on, hit him - he likes it!!".

Note to self - foot/shin pads dont protect against a foot stop from an angry 200+ pound mother of three......

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

[B]That's like teaching someone to swim without water? QUOTE

Your not kidding! I didn't, and still don't, have the funds to by the "red man suit". I do have good kick pads, but most of these ladies had never hit anything before. I had this one lady hold the bag while I demonstrated an elbow strike, and we had to pick her up off the floor. When I mentioned having men come in as tackling dumbies half of them were scrammbling for drop slips.

Just a side note: This particular group was from a battered womens shelter. A unique group, most of them with their self esteem beaten out of them.

maybe try asking around local clubs for experienced female martial artists to use as assistants. There are so many talented female martial artists, who would almost certianly jump at the chance to help these women learn to protect themselves....

In the situation of a womens shelter group... you would definately need martial art women as the dummies that get beat on...theres no other way. These martial art women should be tough though! And big if possible!

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Originally posted by DWright


I found it hard to teach the techniques realisticly with this restriction. Most non-martial artist women do not attack with any force or commitment. I spent the entire class being both instructor and aggressor. Tough class to teach.

Any thoughts on how to make this type of class more realistic without sacrificing myself for the semester?

True, I've seen this again and again. I hate these courses. I can see the need, and that there should be basis for them. But when reality hits it hits harder than the course itself.


I've never tried a womans only course, both because I'm a male and because I never had the chance to lead such a course. But I've whatched quiet a few, since my teacher has lead some. We've also had classes that were called classes for fitness. But not fitness as in great fitness, but for people with extra koordination problems, or with children that tag along, either because they were mothers with no one to take car e of there children. There were also these people that didn't want to be on hthe normal jujitsu class.

All-in-all these people had a motivation problem, that didn't give it the correct approach to make it realistic.

There was no way around this, since they didn't have anybody in the group that could "push" then in the right direction. A little help was when we had assistant instructors that could help. 2 -4 of them was really a great help. But htey had to be very good, and know what they were doing.

/Yari

My question is who imposed the restriction? I would try to get this person to see the necessity of having a male 'aggressor' for realism in what you're trying to teach. Not having a male attacker, or an experienced female martial artist, is like trying to teach someone how to drive a car in one of those $0.25 kiddie rides.

As for gear, if you can't get one of those big ol' padded suits (they ain't cheap!), maybe have the aggressor wear baseball knee/shin/instep pads and some sort of full helmet and have the students wear some sort of padded glove.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu

My question is who imposed the restriction
Cthulhu

Mostly themselves, and they don't/wont understand.
And when they get a real oppenent, it's the oppenents that's the problem. So it's the never ending story. There are some who can see the situation they are in, but most of them live this illusion.

Concerning padding and such, I've used it to some extent, but a total padding or punching ball the size of a human I've never tried. Usally because the dojo's I've been in havn't had the economics to invest in it. It might help a bit to have one, but there is something pysocological about having a real person infront of you.

/Yari

"My question is who imposed the restriction? I would try to get this person to see the necessity of having a male 'aggressor' for realism in what you're trying to teach. "

Cthulu, like Yari said it's the women themselves that put that restriction in place. These women being the women from the womens shelter. I can only talk from my experience but women that have been brutalised and terrified in their past sometimes over years, hundreds of times.... they can't have a male attacker. These women don't trust men, period. The thought of a man attacking them again even in a training atmosphere is way too scary for them. You can't really blame them for this, even if it means they miss out on training that may help them drastically.

I only know this because I myself have taught several womens self defence seminars and when it includes women from a shelter...they never show up. Women that have not been affected by violence seem to have no trouble kicking the tar outta a male volunteer. In fact they are usually smiling from ear to ear while I'm yelling "don't smile! you're supposed to be angry! get ferocious!"

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Why not pad someone up and have them in the class when the women come in and be in the class but don't have them take off the helment. Just identify "her' as the "attacker/aggressor". After about 2 or 3 classes you can "reveal" that it's really a man.

Wonder what would happen?

Probably not a good idea. IMHO it'd be a serious betrayal of their trust.

Besides, men and women move very differently, and noticable differences in the super-structure :D I think they'd realise pretty quick.

Gou - if u'd like, i can recommend some "educational" material highlighting the differences between men and women.. :p

in all seriousness, i think you'd probably upset a lot of your class.

Cheers

Baoquan.

Ya the minute they see someone in a helmet who is "unidentifiable"....they wouldn't go for that. I've dealt with some battered women that couldn't even train with a woman. Any kind of psuedo violent drills or movements freaked them right out, even when it was a woman doing it with them. It makes me very sad and I just want to get my hands on these men that have done this to them...but the damage has already been done.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

I do not have a large womans class; but i do have a couple of female students. What i try to let them see is that the agressor means business. That they must strike with confidence authority and accuracy to designated vital areas to disable, maim or go the distance in defending against violent aggression of any type. If the attacker does not understand the counters of the female; they cannot defend against them. She should be tactful, intelligent, brutal, deadly, and have total confidence within herself to put the fingers through the eye socket and not just poke the eyes. To bite and tear flesh and not just bruise the skin. Strike the throat to rupture the trachea, crush the larynx and not just choke the attacker into submission. The attacker will lie and be just as tactful to counter her submissiveness and give her the body bag treatment , and at the least leave her for dead! The woman as the attacker is worse than the man. Especially when using the element of suprise. Thus, the female student must be as gentle as a lamb, yet as brutal as a bull striking into flesh with it's horns; as meek as a recluse, yet as outgoing as a soldier; as talented and intelligent as an academy award winning leading and supporting lady, yet as deceitful as any wild animal hungery for food; as soft as a sponge, yet as hard as cold steel; with the heart of a saint! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

Let's never try anything different because then we might learn something or be innovative.

Thanx guys! What was I thinking?
:rolleyes:

Gou you are such a freak on a leash, and I mean that affectionately.....uhm are men allowed to say the word affection? Anyway it's not a matter of trying anything new with these women, it's just a matter of what they will allow you to do for their training....and it's not much.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Gou you are such a freak on a leash, and I mean that affectionately.....uhm are men allowed to say the word affection?

I dunno. You just did. So I guess they can. By the way...thanx...I like you too. This doesn't mean were gonna swap spit in the showers though. We just like each other. Heh...

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
Anyway it's not a matter of trying anything new with these women, it's just a matter of what they will allow you to do for their training....and it's not much.

I hear what you are saying. But how does anyone get anywhere with out trying new things? 200 years ago mentally ill people were considered witches and burned. 100 years ago, they were given lobotomies. 50 years ago they drugged them into a zombie state or used electric shocks as therapy. Today, you just never know who is considered mentally ill because people can live, work, and play like anyone with new meds, ideas and therapies.

We all know battered women have always existed but until fairly recently in history it was never acknowledged. Now there are new servcies, and social mores etc that are attempting to deal with the problem. Who's to say that what we're doing now we won't improve upon what we're doing tomorrow? The only way to do that is to try new things and push the envelope.

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
I can only talk from my experience but women that have been brutalised and terrified in their past sometimes over years, hundreds of times.... they can't have a male attacker. These women don't trust men, period. The thought of a man attacking them again even in a training atmosphere is way too scary for them. You can't really blame them for this, even if it means they miss out on training that may help them drastically.

I agree. What is the point? If you want to offer training say that you offer it in an environment of support but make sure that you don't tell them that what what you are doing is realistic because it's not and it won't be until you bring in the person most likely to attack them. I don't blame them at all. I do point a finger at people claiming that what they are showing them WILL work and give them the impression that it will work the moment it really happens.

Originally posted by Damian Mavis
It makes me very sad and I just want to get my hands on these men that have done this to them...but the damage has already been done.

I think we need to point out that this won't really help much. I agree that some people only understand a fist but for the most part the guys doing the abuse are sick in the head too. Not that it excuses their actions, it doesn't. At all. But they need to get help and start on a road to recovery too. Just like women who constantly find abusive situations. At some point they have to take some responsibility for their living situations too. It's a situation that both parties need to adress and while I'm sure beating someone senseless might be fun it's not effective in the long run as this spreads like a disease through families.

This is a tough topic to even talk about as sometimes people want to be sooo politically correct you can't voice an opinion.

This is a truly interestting topic. Let's get a little more down and dirty. I have a female friend whom has experienced her father being shot at point blank range before her eyes as a child. She has moved on and straightened out her life for the most part! She is one of the strong ones whom through hard therapy, hard work and patience has overcome a tendency of experiencing future possible chaotic experiences. So, she took responsibility and control over her life. Now, women who somehow only pick one chaotic experience after another, only to stress themselves too the limit and blame others for their own irresponsibility are in need of mental help. The point here is that even though the individual may not fully recover from this type of trama, that she may be able to lead a normal healthy lifestyle. I also work as a volunteer with these type's of individuals. My girlfriends cousin was shot to death about 2 weeks ago in her car in the local post office parking lot at point blank range in front of her 9 year old daughter! The child here again may never fully recover, yet through therapy and support, she may just have a chance of leading a normal life in her future without the chaotic experiences that her mother was a costumed too! We can all see from these 2 factual examples, that violence is evident for these personality types. Gou, i agree that environmental changes need to be made, as well as personality adjustments and if at all possible proper educational violent abuse training! Anymore suggestions? Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

My husband Seig and I teach Karate I & II at a college besides our own Dojo, This college also offers Self Defense for women. Taught by a woman who absolutely Refuses any males into the class as lecturers, or as a potential 'play' opportunist to the female students. (now what get's me is how are these women going to ever learn what it's like to throw a 200 plus pound man. or defend against someone 2x her power and strength with just other girls acting as the 'bad guy'? What a load of rubbish~!! Some of her students are dually enrolled in karate .. when shown how to defend against a headlock, they were flabbergasted at the ease of the technique, stating their instructor went through 20 steps to our 1 step, and when they go back to their Self defense instructor .. she says. .She doesn't want to see them doing anything of their Karate class in her class.
Poppy cock I say~!!

In the spirit of Martial Arts
Tess

The Women's instructor actually said,"Oh, you're one of Sensei Seigel's. We don't do that here." I wanted to cry.

That makes me mad! If I wasn't so d@mn good looking I'd put on a dress and hit that class just to be a troublemaker. Sadly, they'd see right through my disguise.
:rolleyes:

Gee Gou, I would enroll just to see you in a dress.. *smirks.. you can borrow one of mine if you like.. I have a sweetheart of a chiffon that might fit your frame.. I'm sure Seig wouldn't mind.. ~!

All in all.. yeah it's pathetic the way the teaching *which I say while biting my tongue* is done~!!

Tess

I find that many schools teach in different ways and while I may not agree with how they do things I find people will usually gravitate to the style of school they want to be in.

That said I don't even bother pointing out how other schools train compared to what I do anymore. Some schools train unrealistically for me. Some are too light and others take please hurting each other. But who am I to say what people, like/want/need? I'm just a guy doing what I feel is right for me.

I wouldn't worry about what other schools do in so much as I just worry about me. Mostly because "me" is the only thing I really have control over.

A problem in these situations is that the battered individual (there are battered men too) finds themself trapped. They justify it "I must diserve it", or when offered alternatives, the go back to the familiar because its 'known'. I briefly dated a gal several years ago who came from an abusive relationship. Guy used to beat the snot outta her just for kicks. A very out of control 'tough guy', ya know? I had to bail out of that relationship after I found out that while she was dating me, she was sleeping with him. It was easier to go back to the pain.

I think (not an expert here) that for these individuals, you need to work with them, rebuilding their sence of self worth, and self control before you can really put them into situations where they confront the symbol for their pain.

At the recent WMAA camp this last weekend, Guro Jay Spiro touched on many of these issues. On how to get out of real street situations, not just the 'school practice technique'. The 'thinking' that goes on before you try any particular technique, etc.

These individuals have had it beaten into them that they are no good, can't stand up to the abuse, are worthless and are powerless. Pain is a great teacher. You are fighting against responses that have been burned into them over a lot longer period of time than you have to work with them. No 4 week course is going to adequately reverse years of 'training'.

Yes, there are more efficient ways to do things, but perhaps these people need all the 'baby steps' to rebuild their confidence. (maybe the course is crap too, I'm just giving benifit of doubt too).

Patience, and working on the rebuilding of the individual is key, I think, to restoring these tortured souls to a good place in life.

:asian:

Well as far as giving these people flace hope? someone comming out of a bad class that told them (they can now deffend themselves) probably wouldn't be able to, that is true. But on the other hand it isn't like they are likely to start picking fights and they arne't likely to think they are invulnerable to physical assault. In a class where none of the women would show up if there was a male attacker I don't think these things are an issue so I would say that any boost to their sence of self worth is good. I mean realy the object isn't to make them good fighters but rather to give them a psychological boost to help them recouperate(sp). As far as your class goes.. I would say offer to teach multpile courses, and intro course an intermediate course where you try to get them to be more agressive twards each other and an advanced course where you have male attackers. Make all progretion voluntary and when someone chooses to advance you know their making headway. The name of the game is teaching them to deffend themselves (from your perspective as a combat instructor anyway) but you can't do that if they are afraid to come to class and to get them past that fear they need alot of work, it's alot harder than taking an average person who wants to learn how to fight and teaching them but it's not impoaible and I think it would be worth it in the end.

if you have to have a female attacker, bring in a female who is an experienced martial artist, a brown or black belt. If you bring in a female assistant who has martial arts experience and doesn't mind playing punching bag for the day, then you have the women in a nonthreatening environment, and an attacker who can make things a little more realistic without making things uncomfortable.

I would suggest that you let the instructor show off a bit, some throws, demo stuff that looks painful but really isn't, to show the people in the class not to be afraid to show a little power, and then let the assistant show off too, just to prove that things aren't a one way street and it isn't always men beating up on women and that chicks can kick some tail too.

Team teaching is probably the best way to go about it... make sure the female assistant is the only one touching the people in the class, if they're nervous about having a man there. You can tell them to "keep your wrist straight when you punch" but make sure your assistant is actually the one that walks over and bends the wrist to the proper position. Laugh, make jokes, and try to keep everything as relaxed as possible. These people aren't here to be black belts, just to learn a few things to quickly stop an attack, or at least slow it down.

kick/punch bags are another good way to get people to hit with full force. that way it isn't a person they're hitting, so it makes it okay.

hope that helps.

Greetings all...

Just came in here for the first time.. i usually hang out in the Hapkido club. I know for me when i comes to stictly women's self defence class.. i won't go to them.. I prefer to train with both Men and Women.. because in reality its like 95% chance that's its gonna be a man who's the attacker.. Now i can understand that some women hate men and fear them (due to past confrontations) but why are they taking a self defence class training with a individual who more than likely won't be the attacker.
My instructor tells us that Fear can be an excellent alli to have in a confrontation... you adrenaline goes up.. you body gets ready to handle the situation.. I know that when first taking up self defence or martial arts.. its not a given.. you must learn how to handle the fear in the situation that you are presented with..
and if most of the women don't Fear other women.. how can they mentally be trained to handle another situtaion if one so arises..

My advise to you.. depending on how long the corses go.. try to get male presence in the class if possible.. heck even if they are just standing doing nothing.. If the women leave the class with some strategies on how to defend themselves.. but no mental preparation for the sex of the attacker.. what good is the training, when the Fear of a man takes over and the training is forgotten.

Good luck to you and all the women that you train.

I hear that there is a all girls club down on Huron Church Road called "Studio 4" that has some bad asses that like to roll. I think I might have to head on down there and show them how it's done.

Don't get hurt!:D

GouRonin,


Ya but those are cheap dirty fighters.. if you want Hi-Class style.. go downtown.. and bring your money.. it aint cheap.. niether are the drinks ;)

Have you actually said to them that training with a male may be beneficial, at the same time reassuring them that you won't be bringing a male in against their wishes?

Perhaps you could get your husband/boyfriend to collect you after training, in front of them. Maybe even allow a little affection, a kiss or hug, so that they will see that not all men are bad and can be trusted and are beings that you can be comfortable around. Failing that how about a male friend/ family member comes to collect you once and a while? Not asking too much is it?

:)

Originally posted by Eraser
Ya but those are cheap dirty fighters.. if you want Hi-Class style.. go downtown..

Nah, that's how I fight too. Cheap and dirty. It's funny how high-class always starts to drool when I show up. Everyone likes a bad boy.

GouRonin,

Well it looks like you've been down here practicing a few times, in my neck of the woods... I'm proud that my home town can provide such useful training tools... hehehehehe:D

Originally posted by DWright

I have taught self defense classes for women for many years.
Focusing on basic survival skills. I had one particular class that I was restricted from bringing in any male "attackers".

When I teach Ladies Self Defence, I do the theory part, and I have a female assistant who teaches the application with me as the "dummy"

All the women seem to like taking the opportunity to "have a go" at me. (Some sort of female macho thing, I guess)

The bottom line is... You have to practice defending yourself against the type of person who is likely to attack you.

For women, that may be a big ugly SOB who thinks he will have you as his plaything.

Practice against the big guys, and the rest are not so much of a problem.

Hope this helps,

Les

Sorry this took so long for the follow up, but here is how this played out. I was able to recruit "safe males" that all of the women agreed on. Local police reserves, and even some of the staff from the local womens shelters. Even some of these women brought their fathers for the other women to beat on.

I took a few minutes teaching these guys how to take a safe fall, then started training again. I had made arrangements with the self defense instructor from the police department to be my assistant and the women loved seeing him hit the mat.

Some of the women seemed to break out of their shell and even have fun. I hope to have the chance to do this class again.

Sounds great....hmmmm, safe men. That is a fantastic idea. Thankyou very much.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

Seems I got here a little too late but I will elaborate on the "safe men" approach.

A friend of mine said that when he has done self-defense classes for women he has asked the women participants to bring in an attacker that they are comfortable with. This could be a friend or family member. Many bring in their fathers, or brothers to help them with the class. Some would bring in a girlfriend if they were uncomfortable with a male attacker.

:asian:

Some interesting thoughts in this thread.