Knife Fighting

[Don Roley]

I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

I know the guy that has this web site (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html) and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.

I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I'll just say this...Mariette van der Vliet.

Just take my advice 'cause I won't tell you twice that you'd better play nice or she'll put you on ice...%-}

[Don Roley]

I'll just say this...Mariette van der Vliet.

Oh c'mon, don't tease me like that. All I can say is that she is not Japanese. So, where is she from? South Africa? What is her experience in the Bujinkan, etc? And how "pure" is her stuff, or is this a case of someone taking stuff from other arts and packaging it as Bujinkan? I can do that myself with my latest experience in silat thank you very much.

(BTW- silat is a very good art when taught by a good teacher. The guy whom I stayed with and learned from is worth his weight in gold. If there is an art you are thinking of studying other than Bujinkan you can't do much worse than look him up. Oh- did I forget to mention his name? maybe if you buy me a beer sometime.... :supcool: )

[Kreth]

OK, I'll weigh in. Most of my knife training has been knife vs. knife or muto dori. For lack of many tanto kata, it's mostly been a case of adapting other techniques (ie. empty hand or shoto).

Jeff

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Oh c'mon, don't tease me like that. All I can say is that she is not Japanese. So, where is she from? South Africa? What is her experience in the Bujinkan, etc? And how "pure" is her stuff, or is this a case of someone taking stuff from other arts and packaging it as Bujinkan? I can do that myself with my latest experience in silat thank you very much.

Umm, she's married to Sveneric Bogsater, whom I'd be very surprised if you don't know who that is??? Shes' from the Netherlands, has been training since 1984, has plenty of combat experience from her work with street gangs (though I'm not totally clear as to what that was all about), and almost always teaches knife/counter knife-oriented taijutsu at her seminars. Both using knives and defending against them. Very simple, very efficient, very brutal. http://www.ninpo-berlin.de/Deutsch/members/mariette.htm

And there ARE knife kata in the Bujinkan as far as I know, it's just that they aren't listed in any densho. I have personally seen written collections by Bujinkan shidoshi of knife kata dealing with sentry removal for example. The Jinenkan also teaches specific tanto kata, where tori uses knives to defeat swordsmen.

[AnimEdge]

The knife fighting i have gone over in ninjutsu(RBWI) for knife on knife is a general they strike you deflect into a bunch of blows/techs and end it(kill/disable/runaway) there, but it is quite interesting to watch people spar with knifes on how much they would be cut up and so on if it was a real blade

[Kreth]

The knife fighting i have gone over in ninjutsu(RBWI)...
Don was asking about Bujinkan knife training.

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section
Please keep the discussion on-topic.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Cryozombie]

Don,

We have done Knife on Knife, and Knife vs Stick.

We also have trained in HOW to use a knife... as far as how to stab and cut with it (we stab and cut a target, of course, not another person, using a "live" knife...)

Interesting lesson there... most of them Folders you carry in your pocket... (Or we carry, or whatever) those little finger knubs are NOT enough to keep your hand on the knife and keep your hand from sliding along the blade when you really stab someone/thing... Not pretty if you dont learn that in advance and adjust how you hold it.

[Don Roley]

Interesting lesson there... most of them Folders you carry in your pocket... (Or we carry, or whatever) those little finger knubs are NOT enough to keep your hand on the knife and keep your hand from sliding along the blade when you really stab someone/thing... Not pretty if you dont learn that in advance and adjust how you hold it.

Can I get an "AMEN" from the audience please!

:cheers:

I carry a Spyderco Delica and have a plastic version of the thing. What I like about the small size of it is that in a "boshi-ken" grip I have the pommel firmly resting against the meaty part of my palm. I practice full power stabs with the plastic version to check my grip.

I just can't believe that a teacher in lawyer- rich North America would try this sort of thing with live blades like you say. Hell of a way to find out your grip won't hold up.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I mainly use my Benchmade MDP Griptilian with trainer for that type of training.

[Cryozombie]

I just can't believe that a teacher in lawyer- rich North America would try this sort of thing with live blades like you say. Hell of a way to find out your grip won't hold up.
Oh... dont mis-understand...

The grip thing we do with a plastic knife... before we get to the "actuall" cutting and stabbing we do with a live one.

[r erman]

I spend a lot of time with the knife as well. From a japanese MA perspective the tanto was a back-up weapon, and used primarily in conjunction with jujutsu technique as a force multiplier(envision a samurai who lost his sword throwing down and subduing another and then dispatching with his tanto or wakizashi). This is what I try to do mostly now-a-days--using the blade in conjunction with different throws and locks or deploy it afterwards with kime waza.

I also work alot on blade retention and unarmed blade defense(tanto dori).

I do enjoy blade vs. blade as well and have a lot of fun with this, but it is knife fencing and not knife fighting in my book.

As far as american sensitivity, I don't 'teach' blade deployment or more offensive/pre-emptive blade technique to those not invioved with military or law enforcement. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with most students. I do, however, teach blade defense and retention to those who want it...

[Don Roley]

I also work alot on blade retention and unarmed blade defense(tanto dori).

I was thinking about the matter of blade retention. I have seen some books I can mention on knife fighting and, in most of them,their ways of keeping someone from grabbing your arm is pretty crude and ineffecient compared with the te hodoki I work on. And when you use the skills from eda- koppo ........

Anyone else besides me noticed that and use it as part of training?

[heretic888]

Pardon my ignorance (and Japanese illiteracy), but what is eda koppo?? :asian:

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A simple way of putting it would be pocket stick techniques, mainly concerned with the locking of arm and pressure point striking.

[heretic888]

Ah, I believe I know what you speak of. Thanks. :asian:

[Kreth]

I was thinking about the matter of blade retention. I have seen some books I can mention on knife fighting and, in most of them,their ways of keeping someone from grabbing your arm is pretty crude and ineffecient compared with the te hodoki I work on. And when you use the skills from eda- koppo ........

Anyone else besides me noticed that and use it as part of training?
Well, I have one of the Cold Steel Pro-lite folders, since we're comparing schwantzes here... :D
Yes, I think te hodoki is very useful for knife retention, not to mention I get a kick out of the perplexed look on someone's face the first time I show them how easy it is for me to escape their wrist grab *and* cut them. I also like some of the eda koppo stuff (and think it applies well to an un-opened folder), I teach it as a "non-lethal" option.

Jeff

[Kreth]

Another comment... IMO, folders are not suited for stabbing motions, they're more useful for slicing or slashing cuts. A bit grim, but I'd be more concerned with a stab, that my blade would end up embedded in bone...

Jeff

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

As long as it has a good finger choil, like the ones on the CRKT Ryan Model 7 and Benchmade AFCK, you should be fine.

[Kreth]

Well, what I was getting at was more the blade type. True, with a good hilt and grip, you should be ok, but the majority of folders don't have a stabbing point.

Jeff

[Cryozombie]

Well, what I was getting at was more the blade type. True, with a good hilt and grip, you should be ok, but the majority of folders don't have a stabbing point.

Jeff
Dunno... the CRKT I carry has a Tanto Point... I think that's suitable for stabbing...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Dunno... the CRKT I carry has a Tanto Point... I think that's suitable for stabbing...
Tanto points...:uhoh: :barf:

[Cryozombie]

Tanto points...:uhoh: :barf:
Thats helpful.

Thanks.

Why :barf: ?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just teasing. Sorry. :asian: Don't like americanized tanto blades, that's all. I really don't buy into all this talk of their superior piercing ability.

[Rich Parsons]

I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

I know the guy that has this web site (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html) and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.


I like Animal's thoughts, and agree that you most likely will not meet someone a knife duel.



I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.


I agree that your approach is more realistic from my experience.

As to the US, and or Michigan, I do nto teach Knife fighting per se, I teach some basic knife defenses, and then when trusted students have been around a while then our club will work the other knife work with them.




Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.



I realize you said no FMA, and I have only trained FMA with the exception of just my street experience before and during. From my experience when I did have a knife on me and was facing one, I never had the time to get the knife out. I had to react empty handed or with what was in my hands already.

If you believe this non-value added, then let me know and we can remove it.
:asian:

[Cryozombie]

Just teasing. Sorry. :asian: Don't like americanized tanto blades, that's all. I really don't buy into all this talk of their superior piercing ability.Ah. I dunno about that. I just liked the smooth, switchblade-like action of the one handed operation of that knife... I can deploy it FAST when I am removing it from my pocket.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Ah. I dunno about that. I just liked the smooth, switchblade-like action of the one handed operation of that knife... I can deploy it FAST when I am removing it from my pocket.
Spyderhole + AXIS + ziptie = greased lightning.:jedi1: :ultracool

[Don Roley]

Another comment... IMO, folders are not suited for stabbing motions, they're more useful for slicing or slashing cuts. A bit grim, but I'd be more concerned with a stab, that my blade would end up embedded in bone...

Jeff

I think my Delica would do pretty well by stabbing. I am not extra worried about it getting caught up on bone. Not more than any single edged knife. But if it does, I have a move that basically pushes off with the non-weapon hand to pull it out. Never tried in myself and have to trust it works on faith, don't you know.


I realize you said no FMA, and I have only trained FMA with the exception of just my street experience before and during. From my experience when I did have a knife on me and was facing one, I never had the time to get the knife out. I had to react empty handed or with what was in my hands already.

If you believe this non-value added, then let me know and we can remove it.

No, it has value. I am just not interested in discussing other arts training drills or techniques. I follow the threads in other sections for that.

And your point that you can't get to the knife in a fight is one I have heard elsewhere. Marc talks about it a lot. In fact, I think he made the point that if you can get to your knife before the fight, you are looked at as if you had the chance to run- legally speaking.

But there have been times when I have pulled a knife without anyone knowing. Maybe it is just because I am paranoid and want it in my hand before trouble starts. I still remember a case a few weeks after 9-11 when I thought two middle eastern guys were giving me dirty looks on the train. It may sound racist, but I wanted to put some distance between me and them without attracting attention. I moved away from them and to the door and got off at the next stop, moved down a few cars and got back on. The whole time I had the Delica opened and hidden. Not easy in the middle of a train.

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing to remember with a folder is that it is not one solid piece of steel! Because of this fact and that it folds back in upon itself if you stab you
do have a chance of the balde coming back into it's folded position. If you have
ever tested what happens when you hit something hard you will know exactly
what I mean! Now this does not mean that you can't stab but that you need
to have a certain grip if you are going to stab. Further, Folders are genuinely
designed to slash with rather than stab! My advice is just be cautious with
stabbing and get some serious instruction before you engage someone with
your folder! Oh and by the way, I have not found a folder that I have tested
that did not have problems when hitting something hard. (Like Bone) Maybe not every time, but eventually they all responded by folding back in on themselves!
Just my two cents. Hope it helps!

Brian R. VanCise

[Don Roley]

One thing to remember with a folder is that it is not one solid piece of steel! Because of this fact and that it folds back in upon itself if you stab you
do have a chance of the balde coming back into it's folded position.

I have heard similar statements before. But I wonder.....

I am looking at my Delica and I see that the set up is pretty solid. There is a section of metal as thick as the blade that snaps into place right behind it when opened, so that there is a break but no difference in width and/or strength between it and a solid blade. I have seen other knives made in China and the mechanism that locks the blade in place can be almost paper thin.

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Don, not all folders are made equal are they! Clearly this is the
case with all tools. Some folders do a far better job than others but
clearly when you look at a folder it is designed as a utility knife for
carving, camping, woodwork, etc. and while some are geared for
personal protection they clearly are a better design for a slashing, cutting
motion than stabbing! Now I am not saying that you cannot stab, I'm
just saying that I probably would not do it unless I had no other option!
I have tested similar blades to the one you carry with the same type of
locking mechanism and invariably they will fail! Not always and clearly
not all folders are made equal but look at the design, they are designed
for cutting, slashing and not stabbing! Thats my two cents, you do not have
to agree just think about what I am saying!

Brian R. VanCise

[Rich Parsons]

I have heard similar statements before. But I wonder.....

I am looking at my Delica and I see that the set up is pretty solid. There is a section of metal as thick as the blade that snaps into place right behind it when opened, so that there is a break but no difference in width and/or strength between it and a solid blade. I have seen other knives made in China and the mechanism that locks the blade in place can be almost paper thin.

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.


I have a folder, that I keep just to show that it locks, yet when gripped and ready to be used, the force of the grip pushed in the lock and oopps the knife can be closed. I had this close on me in a live blade drill, I did years ago.

Inspect your blade, and see how you grip it when you are not thinking about it only reacting. Then stop and see if the blade is till functional.


As to your getting away from possible problems, this is the first step in self defense. Recognizing thare is a possible problem. The second is tryng to avoid it. The knife was there based upon your evaluation of the situation and that there were two or possible more. Check you local laws, multiple attackers many times is considered deadly force, which allows for equal use of force i return, asuming you have tried to move away first.

As to Marc's comment, in many states if you can get to your knife and do not get away then you are looked at as both being the attackers, and no one is the defender. Yet, check the local and state laws, to make sure.

:asian:

[Cryozombie]

I wonder if there are any cases on record of a blade collapsing like everyone worries about. And if there is, was it/they a Chinese type version or the Delica type version.
Don...

Ive had it happen quit a bit just F-ing around with cheap "Frost Cutlery" folders... Ive never tested it with my CRKT, I've never wanted to stab something just for SnG with my good blade.

[Don Roley]

You know,
I have noticed that most people (even the non-ninjutsu practicioners) have been talking as if a folding knife is the standard, normal knife to have.

That seens logical to me. My Delica is a tool. I have never spilled blood with it, but boy do the boxes tremble with far when I walk by.

In Japan, my weapon carry choices are almost none. If it is meant as a weapon, I cannot carry it. Even pepper spray and electronic stun devices are being debated for banning. Some bad people used them to rob and/or rape people and so the politicians are taking the easy route of just banning them.

I figure that if I get stopped with a Delica, I barely have an excuse to carry it. I do expect trouble if the police really want it. But it is so much better than anything else.

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.

[hicho]

Interesting discussion.


But what about the folders that are weapons? In Ohio, a small folder pocket knife is not considered a weapon unless used as such (basically, you won't get in trouble when carrying a folder unless you use it against someone creating bodily harm). The trouble comes in with something that looks like a straight blade, even if it is a folder*. Some pocket/utility knives have "the look" of a large tanto when open. If a civilian or officer becomes fearful of it, then you'll have issues. In my experiences, most Kershaw, Al Mar, or Spyderco folders (with or without clips) are fine.

Two days ago at a local Mexican lunch restuarant (Chipotle), a customer came in and was wearing a 10" bowie knife out in the open. He was a construction worker, and quite a few people's eyes got mighty big because of it. Had his order not been carry-out, the old "inducing a panic" syndrome might have caused the authorities to show.

As for thrusting vs cutting, well, that's just part of "knowing your tool".

(*The above info can be validated via ORC (Ohio Revised Code) 2923.11, .12, and .20.)

Take care and train safe,

Jeff O.

[Kreth]

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.
Actually, my Pro-Lite does have a tanto tip, and yes, I use it primarily as a tool for work. The yokote is excellent for precision cutting.
In the US, laws vary from state to state on carry lengths and restrictions. In NY where I live, there is no maximum length set in stone as of the current year.

Jeff

[Rich Parsons]

In Japan, my weapon carry choices are almost none. If it is meant as a weapon, I cannot carry it. Even pepper spray and electronic stun devices are being debated for banning. Some bad people used them to rob and/or rape people and so the politicians are taking the easy route of just banning them.


Many people from the USA, could not understand why I would walk around in cities in Japan by myself at night, and not worry. I knew that weapons were not the norm for the culture. And, I also do it here in the USA as well. Very good points about cultural differences.



I figure that if I get stopped with a Delica, I barely have an excuse to carry it. I do expect trouble if the police really want it. But it is so much better than anything else.


Yes, This is true also in New Zealand, and other countries I have traveled in.



But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting. It seems to me they run counter to the idea of a ninja- like low- profile blade. To those that carry them, why do you take the chance? You know, or at least should, that the ninja tried to keep as low a profile as possible.


As an Engineer, who travels, I explained a half serrated edge and tanto tip blade, as my personal choice for safety in accidents. If another engineer was trapped in a vehicle I would want to be able to cut the seat belts to get them out. This worked in Arizona, when I was called out of line when they ex-rayed by checked bags. Most of the Police and EMT's present also had a serrated edged blade for such usage. Now will this excuse work for just anyone? No, it barely worked for an engineer (* just does not put fear into people does it *), who was wearing business causual clothing, and had a small possible reason for the usage. Lots of questions and wasted time.


I did have an officer take a Balisong form my trunk, as he thought it was ued only for fighting, and did not beleive I used it for FMA training. I went straight to the Police station and requested it back. The shift supervisor called him, and we all had a discussion. Once it was determined teh knife was in a bag, in the trunk, and the bag contained all my other training implements and clothes, and I had just come from teaching a class, I was able to get my knife back.

Lots of issues, and lots of time. Even if you know the local rules of operation and or laws, you still do not argue with the local authorities, on site. You either go get a lawyer, or go up the line of command. Just be prepared for the time and issues and questions they will ask you.

:asian:

[Cryozombie]

I carry my CRKT cuz like it says on the blade you only have 1*

(Thats 1 ass to risk)

Its a folding knife... so its only a weapon if I state I intend to use it as such... unless I am downtown chicago. I carry it for whatever purpose I need it for... even if its my own defense.

I used to carry a Kusarifundo tucked into my belt and back pocket... looked like a standard biker's walletchain, until someone commented when I took my wallet out of my pocket the chain was still in there and asked what it really was... I stopped that practice after that... THAT was a weapon, not my little CRKT

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I for one like my new bandana plus from Survivalsheath...besides the trapping aspect, load it up with some coins or other heavy material and you have basically the same weapon as Steven Seagal had in the infamous "sock with a pool ball" scene.:ultracool

[Don Roley]

This worked in Arizona, when I was called out of line when they ex-rayed by checked bags.

Whoah! Are you saying that you had a knife in your checked bags, and they had a probelm with that? Not carry- on, checked bagage? And it was a knife, cutlery... a few peices of metal in a particular form and not anything that contained powders, accelerants, etc?

I have only traveled back to America handfull of times since 9-11. I had not noticed things were that nutty. Or am I missing the point yet again?

[Rich Parsons]

Whoah! Are you saying that you had a knife in your checked bags, and they had a probelm with that? Not carry- on, checked bagage? And it was a knife, cutlery... a few peices of metal in a particular form and not anything that contained powders, accelerants, etc?

I have only traveled back to America handfull of times since 9-11. I had not noticed things were that nutty. Or am I missing the point yet again?

Don,

We can talk about my security stories. I always get lots of attention no matter what or who I travel with. ;) It is off topic, so I will relate else where.

As to the topic, it was a couple of years ago and the National Championship game was being played in Arinzona, and well I am a large male, traveling alone, no jewelry, with lots of wierd electronics for testing in vehicles, that may or may not have engine smells to them. As always, just people doing their job where I am concerned.

[r erman]

But what about the folders that are weapons? I am talking about the ones that have tanto blades that are good for thrusting.

I have two folders I carry at different times(i.e. I don't carry both at the same time).

One is a 'tanto' like blade--an Emerson CQC-6. The other is the big brother of your knife Don--the Spyderco Endura.

The spyderco, even with the partial seration, is much less threatening than the Emerson, but both are legal in my state. The blades are under 4 inches, and neither can be opened by centrifugal force alone(which according to Missouri law would be an illegal 'switchblade').

I used to only carry the Emerson because of the overall ruggedness, but have been carrying the spyderco more and more because it is quicker to deploy as the clip is on the 'end' of the handle(so if opened the blade would project down).

Although, I've seen a number of other folders I'd like to have these two do fine--however, when James William's Hissatsu folder comes out I'll definetely have to get one.

[Don Roley]

You know, I realize now that we are on a little mental disconnect. I have been thinking about avoiding trouble with the police. Most of you guys have been worried about remaining legal.

It must be nice to live in countries where the police can't search you without probable cause. And merely being a minority is not considered probably cause. And you guys don't have to worry about being deported even if you do nothing criminal.

I just realized that after years of living in Japan, my entire outlook is from a different perspective than you. Weird.

I still say that the ninja would carry around nothing that would raise eyebrows. Doesn't mater if it is legal or not. Even today, if a police officer sees that you defended yourself with something that was obviously meant as a weapon and not primarily as a tool, they might decide to investigate it as if you were looking for a fight.

As for me, even though knives like the Spyderco Civilian are legal, I know that if the police ever shook me down and found that wicked- looking blade they are just going to look and me and grin before saying, "Anta no kuchi Cho-kawaii." :uhyeah:

I don't need that kind of trouble when I live at the mercy of Japanese immigration.

[r.severe]

Donny,

This doesn't seem like any traditional subject matter of any of the Kans to me... Why is it on the traditional forum?

What experience do you have with knife fighting?

What I have heard from Japan is you are pretty much weak and non-combative in nature.

What's the 'real' story behind Donny?

ralph severe, kamiyama

[Kreth]

Ralph,
Please keep the conversation on-topic. Also, please keep the discussion polite.

Jeff
-MT Mod

[althaur]

Something people that are carrying knives need to do is constantly practice drawing it and opening it(if it is a folder). I am lucky in that as a memeber of the armed forces, I can carry and conceal a folder or fixed blade while in uniform. I go a little overboard in some peoples opinion. I have 2 folders and one fixed on me usually. While I'm sitting at my desk I will often be flipping my folders open and closed.

Too many people get hung up on using the weapon. The weapon is still your body. You have to use your body to gain the distance and time to draw/open a blade, then worry about using it. You also need to train on when to use it. Sometimes it's a lot better to leave a folder closed and hit with it. Other times simply "popping" it open for the BG to see and hear is enough.

For an idea of the blades I carry, look at these two sites.

www.hideawayknives.com Makes a boshiken from hell.
www.striderknives.com These are what go with me on deployments.

[Kreth]

While I'm sitting at my desk I will often be flipping my folders open and closed.
Good point about practicing, glad to see I'm not the only one that does this at their desk... :D

Jeff

[Don Roley]

Josh, Jeff,

You guys do that while you are at work? With live knives?

I could never get away with that. I try to maintain a low profile, very ninja like. I do my blade manipulation drills at hime, in front of the TV, with drones.

[althaur]

I have my own office. People still think I'm wierd though. ;) That may not just be from the knives though.

You should have seen the looks on peoples faces when I was teaching a combatives class with knives. I was showing them where to cut/stab if the person was wearing body armour to defeat it and kill/incapacitate the person. You would have thought that none of these soldiers realized they were in the military before. Sheesh!

[Kreth]

You guys do that while you are at work? With live knives?
Well, as a network admin at a small production factory, I inherited the office of the old HR manager, namely, in the basement. So, I don't have much company here when things are running smoothly. There's nothing down here, but me, my minion, and a conference room.

Jeff

[r erman]

You know, I realize now that we are on a little mental disconnect. I have been thinking about avoiding trouble with the police. Most of you guys have been worried about remaining legal.

With you being in Japan I can see where you are coming from. However, you had asked about how blades were viewed in the States, as you wouldn't live in Japan forever. Where I'm from having a pocketknife--even a clipit--is more common than not.

I am more concerned with survival first, and explaining myself to authorities second. If I ever had to use a blade I would have a damn good reason for it.

[Shogun]

I work in a music store, and at night, I have to breakdown boxes. sometimes we get in those carboard standups, so I do my knifefighting then, with my Gerber. I love my gerber. I'm a gerber baby.

[Dale Seago]

I have my own office. People still think I'm wierd though. ;) That may not just be from the knives though.

I think it's mainly a result of the fact that you've been training with me the last few years. . .


You should have seen the looks on peoples faces when I was teaching a combatives class with knives. I was showing them where to cut/stab if the person was wearing body armour to defeat it and kill/incapacitate the person. You would have thought that none of these soldiers realized they were in the military before. Sheesh!

I think you'll find when you arrive in the 'Stan that folks will be much more appreciative.

Speaking of weird. . .At the request of a couple of folks in the dojo, tonight's class was on "long gun" (rifle/carbine/shotgun) disarming & retention. "Closed" class, current Booj folks only, no "tourists". For some reason people just came out of the woodwork tonight -- instead of about 15 there were around 40. There were people from other dojo there that I literally haven't seen in two to four years.

There also was a black-belt couple from Ohio who happened to be in town and dropped in, and were a little surprised when the rollup door to the street went down and the place began sprouting AR-15s and Mossberg pump shotguns. When I explained what was going on, though, and the procedures we were going to use in order to get away with committing gross safety violations, they were fine with it and had a lot of fun.

[althaur]

I think it's mainly a result of the fact that you've been training with me the last few years. . .



I think you'll find when you arrive in the 'Stan that folks will be much more appreciative.


I do believe you did corrupt me in some way. :uhyeah: I am looking forward to training with the troops that are over there. That should give me some new perspectives on our art that a lot of people don't take into consideration or are just never exposed to. Then again, some big mutated "operator" may show me where the holes in my training are. LOL

[Don Roley]

I work in a music store, and at night, I have to breakdown boxes. sometimes we get in those carboard standups, so I do my knifefighting then, with my Gerber. I love my gerber. I'm a gerber baby.

So, if you get a stand up of new kids on the block I am sure you start drooling in anticipation. :)

Is your Gerber a folder? I just got a Gerber boot knife. Very nice double edged dagger. But there would be hell to pay if I got caught with it.

[Kreth]

I'm not a big fan of Gerber knives. I do like their Multi-tool, however. IMO it's a much better design than the Leatherman.

Jeff

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I suppose I'm the only one here who burns a few sticks of incense at my altar with the Benchmade logotype on it before going to bed every night? :fanboy:

[r erman]

No I have a benchmade Nimravus--why does that name sound familiar?

Also, my Emerson CQC-6 is actually the now defunct benchmade mass production model.

[hicho]

Warning - thread drift:


There also was a black-belt couple from Ohio who happened to be in town and dropped in, and were a little surprised when the rollup door to the street went down and the place began sprouting AR-15s and Mossberg pump shotgunsMr. Seago,

Small world - those were two students from our dojo. One of them was taking CEU's for his job, and he and his wife thought they'd stop in and train. They were going to try to catch up with Garth too, as they met in 97 at hombu.

Ohio's ccw laws recently changed. I am sure your class brought alternative views to weapons training as a whole.

Take care,

Jeff O.

[Dale Seago]

Warning - thread drift:

Mr. Seago,

Small world - those were two students from our dojo. One of them was taking CEU's for his job, and he and his wife thought they'd stop in and train. They were going to try to catch up with Garth too, as they met in 97 at hombu.

Ohio's ccw laws recently changed. I am sure your class brought alternative views to weapons training as a whole.

Take care,

Jeff O.

I seem to recall they did say they'd managed to train with Garth on Sunday, but don't hold me to that. :) In any case, it was a delight to meet them and have them train with us, and they seemed to be "getting" what I was trying to communicate.

Back on topic, sortakinda: Folding knives seem to be pretty common here, and certainly don't arouse comment from anyone. My own "everyday carry" is a Benchmade drop-point Griptilian; my wife's is the "Mini-Griptilian" (smaller version of the same knife). We like axis locks.

Fixed-blade knives (single-edged, double-edged, doesn't matter) are entirely legal to carry under California law as long as they're not concealed; so my other most commonly carried knife is a 13.5-inch blade handmade Scottish dirk, usually while I'm wearing a kilt (which anyone in my dojo can tell you is often):

http://www.bujinkansf.org/dirks/Tartmhor%20Bare.jpg

[Kizaru]

What I have heard from Japan is you are pretty much weak and non-combative in nature.
What's the 'real' story behind Donny?
ralph severe, kamiyama
Don Roley's a skinny little wimp, I'm a deviant, you're a big fat guy from Texas.

Big deal, we've all got our demons...get over it, you'll be happier.

[Kreth]

Moderator Note.
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314). Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Jeff
-MT Moderator-

[Shogun]

So, if you get a stand up of new kids on the block I am sure you start drooling in anticipation. http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif

Is your Gerber a folder? I just got a Gerber boot knife. Very nice double edged dagger. But there would be hell to pay if I got caught with it.We got in a Neo standup from Matrix, and I tore that thing up. Any boy band or standup that imposes on me. lol.

My Gerber is a folder. just barely legal, too. (lengthwise).

[Don Roley]

Ok,
With the exception of a few like Dale, we all seem to think that a modern ninja would be carrying around a folder instead of a fixed blade.

Hatsumi has never AFAIK taught a method of opening a folder. We are kind of on our own here. How would we train for this while keeping the spirit of what Hatsumi teaches us?

I would say that the stuff I see on Kelly McCann' video "Inside the Crucible Volume 3" is the closest to what I think the Bujinkan would do. That is my opinion without any direct instruction on the matter by Hatsumi himself. It is simple and easy to do without being fancy. The fact that McCann has verifiable experience adds to the appeal.

In short, you just put your finger in the inside of the ring and just move it forward without trying to make a circle or anything. For those familiar with Bujinkan terms, go from a koppo ken to the boshi ken in as direct a fashion as possible.

I have practiced opening my drone with my hands so cold I could not feel them, after a workout of pushups that left my muscles shaking and when I was under the influence of single malt Scotch. The more complicated moves like I find on Michael Janich's stuff just do not work in those conditions based on my experience. I expect real combat to be worse that a freezing handed workout after an drinking binge.

Anyone train differently and managed to get things to work under pressure?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hatsumi has never AFAIK taught a method of opening a folder.On accounts of someone who went to Japan a few months ago, Nagato sensei has and does, which would indicate...?

[Kreth]

In short, you just put your finger in the inside of the ring and just move it forward without trying to make a circle or anything. For those familiar with Bujinkan terms, go from a koppo ken to the boshi ken in as direct a fashion as possible.
This sounds reasonable, and close to how I do it. Maybe with slight differences depending on the opening mechanism (thumb stud/blade cutout). Expanding on this, I've also played around with opening the blade in different situations: while keeping it concealed, moving into a variation of seigan while opening (to display the blade as a deterrent), etc...

Jeff

[Blooming Lotus]

I spend a lot of time with the knife as well. From a japanese MA perspective the tanto was a back-up weapon, and used primarily in conjunction with jujutsu technique as a force multiplier(envision a samurai who lost his sword throwing down and subduing another and then dispatching with his tanto or wakizashi). This is what I try to do mostly now-a-days--using the blade in conjunction with different throws and locks or deploy it afterwards with kime waza.

I also work alot on blade retention and unarmed blade defense(tanto dori).

I do enjoy blade vs. blade as well and have a lot of fun with this, but it is knife fencing and not knife fighting in my book.

As far as american sensitivity, I don't 'teach' blade deployment or more offensive/pre-emptive blade technique to those not invioved with military or law enforcement. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with most students. I do, however, teach blade defense and retention to those who want it...
haven't read the whole thread because gotta run any moment, but do we have a favourite empty hand knife defence tech as opposed to retention ??? And what are thoughts on distance......... close the gap or try your luck from long - mid range???

Blooming Lotus

[DWeidman]

haven't read the whole thread because gotta run any moment, but do we have a favourite empty hand knife defence tech as opposed to retention ???
Sure. My favorite empty hand knife technique is the one that presents itself.



And what are thoughts on distance......... close the gap or try your luck from long - mid range???

Blooming Lotus
Yes.

-Daniel

[Dale Seago]

I agree with Dan on this one.

[Don Roley]

haven't read the whole thread

Perhaps you should. :wink2:

Moving on, Kreth brings up a good point. Just a few days ago I was waiting for laundry to dry at the laundromat and had reason to worry about some folks hanging around outside. I reached over myself with my left, pulled my Delica from my waistband carry, opened it in reverse grip and inserted it in the front flap of my shirt in such a way that they could not see it. If trouble had happened, it would have been in a much better position for fast deployment.

It is best to have a knife in your hand before trouble starts, especially with folders. The problem is getting it out without giving away anything or freaking out the people around you. Carrying the thing in the waistband like I do decreases the likelihood of it being seen, but outside of a cross draw like I did, the movement to get to it is bigger and more easy to be seen. I sometimes carry the Delica clipped in my pocket, but that increases the chance it will be noticed.

[Shogun]

instead of a folder, You could sharpen your teeth, and then if someone attacked you, you could bite em. jk.

I have a DVD (Fighting mad) where a girl has a knife in her pocket, and another girl gets above her an starts pummeling her. Girl A (knife girl) finally gets the knife out, but can only get in a stab on the lower leg, and Girl B doesnt even feel it. girl B got stabbed, but not bad. and if Girl B had a bludgeoning object, girl A would have been in some %$. So,....its probably better to make your knife more available if you sense danger....before it happens.

Kyle

[DWeidman]

It is best to have a knife in your hand before trouble starts, especially with folders. Considering the legal ramifications to bringing a knife to bear in a fist fight... I am not sure that it is the wisest choice. In California, you are really rolling the dice on this one - as you don't have cause to escalate to a leathal response until a leathal threat materializes...

This is the catch 22 to having a weapon on you...

The good guys are always behind the 8-ball on this one...

-Daniel

[tshadowchaser]

True and if it opens with one hand. fick of the wrist, etc, Calif. will hit you with a felony.
The person who displays a knife or uses one in most states is on the wrong end of the law unless they can prove that their kife may have been in danger

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just discovered these two hotties on 888knivesrus:

http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/PC2254GT

http://www.888knivesrus.com/product/PC2259GT

Only thing I don't like is that the one with the guard (I like my fingers) is a bit long. Does anyone think it would be worth it to purchase two of the same type, and take the edge off on one of them and use them in training, or would it be smarter to do the same thing with a pair of Hissatsu instead?

[Dale Seago]

True and if it opens with one hand. fick of the wrist, etc, Calif. will hit you with a felony.


Not (necessarily) true at this time -- As an instructor in California I need to keep abreast of the laws here. You're referring to section 653K (regarding switchblades) of the California Penile Code, the statutes they'll use to screw you if you fail the "attitude test". What you describe used to be a misdemeanor, not a felony; however, in January of 2002 the law was changed.

It now states,


653k: Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.

For purposes of this section, "passenger's or driver's area" means that part of a motor vehicle which is designed to carry the driver and passengers, including any interior compartment or space therein.

(Edit: For a good overview of CA knife laws see this page by a former student of mine, Jim March, at http://www.ninehundred.com/~equalccw/knifelaw.html)

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So, does that mean that all folders that can be opened with wrist flicks/inertia openings are illegal...?

[Dale Seago]

So, does that mean that all folders that can be opened with wrist flicks/inertia openings are illegal...?

No, it's a matter of how it's designed/intended by the manufacturer to be opened. If you have a Spyderco with a "thumb-hole", or a Benchmade with a "stud" for opening. . .that just happens to have loosened up over time to the point where you can open it with a wrist-flick alone. . .it's still legal.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

While we're at it, how come AXIS locking knives aren't seen as assisted openers?

[Cryozombie]

While we're at it, how come AXIS locking knives aren't seen as assisted openers?
Or Kershaws?

[r erman]

I don't think they are as particular in my state. No exceptions for loose clipits:


(18) "Switchblade knife" means any knife which has a blade that folds or closes into the handle or sheath, and

(a) That opens automatically by pressure applied to a button or other device located on the handle; or

(b) That opens or releases from the handle or sheath by the force of gravity or by the application of centrifugal force.

I like the vague reference to 'ordinary pocketknife' in this section:



(10) "Knife" means any dagger, dirk, stiletto, or bladed hand instrument that is readily capable of inflicting serious physical injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person. For purposes of this chapter, "knife" does not include any ordinary pocketknife with no blade more than four inches in length;

FWIW, I've really enjoyed this thread--a breath of fresh air around here.

[Don Roley]

Legal matters are hard to talk about with any degree of specificity because of different areas and their laws. By my count, we have at least people from three countries involved in this discussion.

But I think we can all agree that we can talk about logic or we can talk about the law. But by talking about one we are not neccesarily talking about the other.

[Cruentus]

Just a couple of things that aren't art specific, as I do not study ninjitsu, but may add value.

#1. First rule for carrying a knife for self-defense: DON'T carry a knife for self-defense. Getting a CPL and carrying a pistol is actually safer for you legally as well as physically; if you pull a knife or a gun for self-defense, lethal force still needs to be justified for either in any state. But believe it or not, a legally concealed carry pistol is more legally acceptable then a blade used to cut someone to smitherines.

That being said, if you DO carry a knife, then your knife abides by the laws of your state, AND is for utility, fishing, hunting, wilderness survival, a part of a costume or traditional dress (scottish dirk), etc., etc., etc.....and YOU CAN PROVE that is what it is for. If you carry a knife for self-defense only (especially if it LOOKS like it is for self-defense only) then that can be looked at as premeditation if you ever have to use it on someone, and it ends up in court. Observe the Preen-Wilson case for a recent example if you don't agree, however, remember that the law doesn't really whether or not you agree.

Good self-defense is using a little common sense and taking care of these details, nipping in the bud problems you could run into later down the line.

#2. I'd practice with your carry tool, including live cutting drills on targets, before you carry. Your traditional knifework from your style may be very good, but you need to apply that to the tool that you'll be carrying. Don sets a good example by working with the Delica and trainer.

Work out any problems you might have with Grip, etc., in the training hall rather then the street or field.

Also, you should be able to deploy your knife in a second or less even with an adrinaline dump; so practice opening those folders frequently.

#3. Carry a good quality tool, especially if it is a folder. It doesn't need to be the most expensive thing at the knifeshow, but it needs to be reliable. You won't have to worry about locks failing, blades breaking, etc., with a good quality piece of steel.

#4. For teaching: Just be clear as to WHAT your teaching and what it is for. Example: Assuming your pupils aren't military, if there is traditional/technical value, lets say, in teaching some sentry removal methods, then cool...teach em'. Don't worry too much about the psychopaths using your deadly methods (wink) for evil; hopefully you've screened them as much as you can. The reality is, the psycho's will just buy a shotgun at the nearest sporting good store if they wish to go on a spree, rather then waste their time and $$ on your class. That being said, make sure you specify what that sentry removal method is for, and that you specify that it IS NOT for self-defense. It may have value, as a lot of impractical things in martial arts have value (hence the "art" part of "martial art"). But don't have your students leaving your class thinking that that something like a sentry removal is at all practical, or that it will go over well in court as a self-defense claim.

So, in other words, if you teach knife methods from any style, ninjitsu or otherwise, go ahead and teach the traditional way as specified in your style. However, make sure you do yourself and your pupils justice by specifying the purpose of what you are teaching, and basically seperating what is prudent and appliable for self-defense in TODAYS world, and what is not. You don't want pupils walking away thinking that things like sentry removals as in my example, or that slice-em-cut-em-gut-em up stuff that exists in almost every knife art is prudent for self-defense.

Cool...hope that added too the discussion.

PJMOD

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Just a couple of things that aren't art specific, as I do not study ninjitsu, but may add value.Don't worry, neither do we (when we train at least), but it was sound advice.
First thing my instructor said when a couple of new guys were taught knife techniques for the first time: "has anyone in here ever cut someone's throat? Didn't think so. You WILL get busted for it. I guarantee it."

[Don Roley]

If you carry a knife for self-defense only (especially if it LOOKS like it is for self-defense only) then that can be looked at as premeditation if you ever have to use it on someone, and it ends up in court. Observe the Preen-Wilson case for a recent example if you don't agree, however, remember that the law doesn't really whether or not you agree.

I just have to bring up a dead horse after reading the above.
:deadhorse

I have been talking about low profile knives to avoid attention. Not only is that safe for me, but I also feel that is the way the ninja of old would look at things. They did not want to attract attention by carrying anything that could be classified as a "weapon" and instead relied on staffs, kunai, etc while undercover. Some people have pointed out that certain knives I balk at are legal to carry.

But I know and have trained briefly under Alain Burgess. If you do a web search you will find that he is a guy who has had a lot of fights and now has a few videos and books for sale. What you may not find is the fact that he is a prosecuter now. I have heard him talk about things relating to self defense and what happens in the courts afterward and it really is a wake up call.

I just got a message from him in my mail box where he was talking about how he had handled a cane during training that had been sharpened. He said that if he had seen this thing after a violent encounter, he would be much less likely to beleive that it was a case of a person being attacked and more along the lines of someone looking for trouble. Even if you avoid criminal prosecution, you run the risk of people coming after you later for huge sums of money on their own. And their slimy lawyers will be sure to point out anything that makes it look like you were out there to try to prove to yourself that you are a macho he- man. Alain kept talking about an appearance that you were trying to hurt others.

So, I have to say again, why would a person studying a ninjutsu tradition carry a knife that was obviously made to hurt others? If you are attacked and you use a utility knife like my Delica, you still may be in trouble if there is anyone hurt. But what do you think your chances of spending a night in jail, having to get a lawyer and facing a frivilous civil suit later if the police roll up to find you standing over someone with a blackened, double edged knife with a name like "warriors edge"? Take a look at this page (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/lethalforce.html) just to see what sort of trouble you have going into the situation even without a nasty looking toy to make the police raise their eyebrows.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Hey Don, are balisongs legal to own in Japan?

[Don Roley]

Hey Don, are balisongs legal to own in Japan?

I know you can buy them, but I do not think they are legal to carry around. I have not researched it much, so take that with a grain of salt. But I have seen them for sale.

[Cruentus]

I just have to bring up a dead horse after reading the above.
:deadhorse


Exqueeze me? :cool: Perhaps it was a dead horse point to you, but I got a few nice comments regarding it, so perhaps it wasn't a dead horse to everyone and was worth elaborating on. Anyways, we're in agreement. Nice link to Macyoung's site, btw... :ultracool

Paul

[Cruentus]

Oh...and Don, I got nothing on my search on Alain Burgess. Could you help me out there? Tx, Paul. :asian:

[Don Roley]

Oh...and Don, I got nothing on my search on Alain Burgess. Could you help me out there? Tx, Paul. :asian:

Could it be because Don Roley is an idiot who can't spell certain people's last name correctly? :idunno:

Here is his web page.

http://www.burrese.com/

[Cruentus]

Could it be because Don Roley is an idiot who can't spell certain people's last name correctly? :idunno:

Here is his web page.

http://www.burrese.com/

:rofl: Thanks man...I'll check it out. :)

[Don Roley]

BTW,
I started a thread related to this, but then realized it was not Takamatsu-den specific so we moved it to the knife arts section. But I still think that most people taking part in this discussion would enjoy it.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19327

[Don Roley]

Spyderhole + AXIS + ziptie = greased lightning.

Could you go into more detail please?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

If you fasten a small ziptie on the top of a Spyderhole it basically works like a wave feature.

BTW, is it true that there has been a lot of injuries caused by metal training knives in the Honbu etc, which is now the reason Soke only wants us to use soft weapons in training?
Since I long since decided to boycott Cold Steel and I think the A/F rubber trainers are ugly as crap, I've been looking into some goodies from www.takknife.com (http://www.takknife.com) and www.sof-stx.com (http://www.sof-stx.com) . Any opinions on these?

[r erman]

The best training knives I've ever used were made from the same plastic they use for a lot of cutting boards. I have a very close replica of my emerson CQC-6 that a friend made.

These are serious enough to respect if you fence with them, as they can raise welts. But they are relatively safe as well.

[Kreth]

Since I long since decided to boycott Cold Steel..
I'm curious what prompted your boycott of Cold Steel. I've always had good experiences with anything I've bought from them. I have a couple of their rubber training knives as well, which are very nice.

Jeff

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Lynn Thompson quote of the day: "if every woman in America carried a sharp knife and knew how to use it, no one would be raped. The knife is the perfect self defense weapon for women, only a firearm is better."

'Nuff said.
We did however have one hell of a good time with the "More Proof" video at our last dojo party.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Any opinions on the Spyderco Perrin Street Bowie from a Bujinkan perspective, BTW?

[Don Roley]

Any opinions on the Spyderco Perrin Street Bowie from a Bujinkan perspective, BTW?

I take if from the lack of responses that nobody owns one.

I saw a picture of one. All I can say is how are you going to explain carrying something that big around and try to explain the name "street bowie" to a jury after you gut someone with it? "It is just a tool! I was not looking for trouble!" does not sound that convincing with this type of blade.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Looked it up and it appears that it's only the custom version that's called "street bowie". True, not the most sheeples friendly piece of steel in the world, at least not the black bladed version, but I wonder if something that looks like a kitchen knife isn't at least looked more favourably upon than a dagger or something with a sharpened false edge.

[Mountain Kusa]

Hello Don,

It seems everytime we turn around in our group, we are pulling out training knives. With this being said, We also train a little differently. In the U.S. Gangs are carrying the relatively new folding box cutters. They are small, negate the need to learn how to sharpen a knife, (one just changes to a new blade when needed), and are hidden easily. They will cut the bedooky out of you. The one I own has a very strong back and lock at least 1/4" and the angle of the holder exposes much of the razor.

These can also be trained with as the blade can be removed for training, though extreme care should be taken to ensure it is done. We have even trained with the regular box cutters as used in a warehouse.

I have been told by a policeman friend of mine that they want to cut you and make you bleed so you will know you can die and rob you or worse. I once saw a friend of mine cut with a 1 1/2" blade on the palm of the hand which resulted in a 8 hour surgery, 5000 dollar bill, and loss of feeling in that hand for the rest of his life even after neuro surgery, (this was 20 years ago) because he wanted to be stupid and figure a small blade would do nothing.

Good question and posts

[Dale Seago]

In the U.S. Gangs are carrying the relatively new folding box cutters. They are small, negate the need to learn how to sharpen a knife, (one just changes to a new blade when needed), and are hidden easily. They will cut the bedooky out of you. The one I own has a very strong back and lock at least 1/4" and the angle of the holder exposes much of the razor.

Certainly illustrates the need to train as though the opponent always has a weapon that you just may not have seen yet. In my dojo that's often actually the case: We do a fair amount of stuff involving use of kakushi buki or small hidden weapons. And of course, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander: whatever the bad guys use we can use too, and I rather like the design of this folding boxcutter.


. . .I wonder if something that looks like a kitchen knife isn't at least looked more favourably upon than a dagger or something with a sharpened false edge.

Not here in California anyway -- no advantage in either direction. A concealed fixed-blade is a felony no matter what the style. Likewise, a fixed-blade worn openly is totally legal no matter what (barring certain statutorily defined venues such as schools, government buildings, etc.).

So when I wear a fixed-blade knife, it's 'most always my handmade Scottish dirk.

I'm also looking forward with great anticipation to one item in a forthcoming line of historically-correct 19th century style bowies from Hanwei, the Bell Bowie. (http://www.casiberia.com/cas_website/pdfs/009k.pdf) This is a reproduction of one of 14 surviving bowies made by Samuel Bell. Bell -- like Bowie -- is a Scottish name, and this one has a remarkably "Scottish dirk-like" look to it.

Samuel Bell was a cutler and silversmith in both Knoxville, Tennesee and San Antonio, Texas. He was born in Washington County, Pennsylvania; and at the age of 14 went to work in an arms factory making swords for use in the War of 1812. He later became mayor of Knoxville before relocating to San Antonio. While in Texas he made a pair of silver spurs for General Sam Houston (also Scottish, from the Gaelic huisdean), who wore them at the Battle of Sam Jacinto.

(Other trivia: There were 30 Scots among those who fought in the Battle of the Alamo, and piper John MacGregor stood on the adobe walls in the midst of the battle to pipe the men on in true Scottish tradition.)

I'm of partial Scottish ancestry and also a Texan by birth, and this knife just really calls out to me!

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Not here in California anyway -- no advantage in either direction. A concealed fixed-blade is a felony no matter what the style. Likewise, a fixed-blade worn openly is totally legal no matter what (barring certain statutorily defined venues such as schools, government buildings, etc.)Possibly so. I was however more referring to the actual use of the blade in self defense.

Heard the other day that knives are legal to carry in Germany as long as they don't have a downward curving blade, like a kukri shape...seems strange, especially since I've heard that many German Pekiti Tirsia-practitioners are fond of the CRKT Ryan Plan B and the aforementioned AFCK...

[Mountain Kusa]

Not here in California anyway -- no advantage in either direction. A concealed fixed-blade is a felony no matter what the style. Likewise, a fixed-blade worn openly is totally legal no matter what (barring certain statutorily defined venues such as schools, government buildings, etc.).
So Dale, does this mean in California that a small folding blade may be carried conceiled?

[Dale Seago]

So Dale, does this mean in California that a small folding blade may be carried conceiled?

It does. It also means a large folder may legally be carried concealed: Under the law, it's not a "dirk or dagger" unless/until it's being carried or worn with the blade open. If I wanted to carry around, say, a Camillus Cuda Maxx "folding bowie" with 5 & 1/2" blade it would be no problem.

[Dale Seago]

Possibly so. I was however more referring to the actual use of the blade in self defense.

I think Don Roley has more than adequately addressed the potential impact of names, appearances, and "intent reflected in design" of certain sorts of knives, and I agree with him. That's why the folders I & my wife carry are arguably "utility" rather than "tactical" knives. As a strict matter of law, it's a non-issue. However, would an attorney attempt to use such things as a psychological ploy to influence members of a jury? Count on it!!

To give you an idea how far such things can be carried, I served on a jury in a criminal trial a few years ago in San Francisco. The defendant was charged with assault with a deadly weapon (to wit, a knife) and infliction of great bodily injury on a security guard outside a bookstore of which the defendant was a patron and which employed the guard.

According to the prosecuting attorney the defendant's abiding interest in military history (the section in which he spent nearly all his time) attested to his defective and dangerous character, while his prior honorable service as a US Marine was evidence of his physical deadliness. It was also clear, to me, based on personal experience that her description of the "attack" on the guard and the way the injury was inflicted was not physically possible: It was akin to watching someone trying to create a kata by combining movement and techniques from several unrelated arts, with no understanding of any of them.

Oh, and the deadly weapon? It was a non-locking Swiss Army knife.

The great bodily injury? A wound no more than an inch wide which only penetrated the skin, didn't even go through the subcutaneous fat layer.

The assault? The guy didn't knife the guard just outside the store when they got into an argument and the guard threw him out, as alleged. The guard had harrassed and bullied this guy over a period of weeks. On this occasion, the guard finally threw him out. . .then abandoned his post and followed him for two or three blocks, threatening him (during which time the defendant surreptitiously palmed the knife and opened a blade). When they finally reached a point where the guard thought they were unobserved, he made his move -- whereupon the defendant poked at him with the can-opener blade, jumped back, and yelled at the guard to leave him alone.

During jury selection it was already established and known that I was (at that time) both an account manager with a uniformed guard service (responsible for staffing and guard training -- and disciplining -- at a number of client locations), and a martial arts/self defense instructor who taught weapons use as well as empty-hand stuff. I'm also a former Marine NCO, as well as a former Army officer. I thought neither side would want me, but they both thought I was perfect for their case.

I do think I had a considerable influence on the jury during deliberation. The defendant walked, acquitted of ALL charges. No "assault", just self-defense. No great bodily injury inflicted. No deadly weapon -- in fact, it was a finding of fact by us that it was not even a knife at the time it was used because of the blade that was deployed.

[Rich Parsons]

It does. It also means a large folder may legally be carried concealed: Under the law, it's not a "dirk or dagger" unless/until it's being carried or worn with the blade open. If I wanted to carry around, say, a Camillus Cuda Maxx "folding bowie" with 5 & 1/2" blade it would be no problem.

Dale,

No disrespect meant here, just curious.

If this is true then how come no one will ship a balisong knife to California? I mean is their specific legislation against this style of knife?

Thanks

[Dale Seago]

If this is true then how come no one will ship a balisong knife to California? I mean is their specific legislation against this style of knife?

Unfortunately it does fall within the statutory description of a "switchblade" in section 653K of the California Penal Code (see my post on this on page 5 of this thread). It's not illegal to own a switchblade, but it is a misdemeanor to purchase, import, or to possess one other than on your own property.

The relevant part here -- emphasis added by me, below -- is:


For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.


For whatever it's worth, if it was a wee bitty balisong with a 1.9" blade, it would not legally be considered a switchblade.

[Cryozombie]

Ok, so here is a situation...

As a PC tech, who is often charged with manufacturing Category 5 (cat5) cabling for our Motorolla Canopy Wireless internet connection, I often need a knife for cutting and splicing cabling.

Obviously that would not be a Bowie, or a Tanto, or a Dale-esque (I coined a new phrase for ya there Dale) scottish dirk...

But what would be "acceptable" for that?

My CRKT, which I commonly use for that, would be seen by its design as NOT a utility knife... the Skeletonized handle, serated edge and Tanto point just dont speak "utility"...

Likewise, a folding boxcutter, while termed "boxcutter" and therby given the name of a utility knife would seem like a utility knife, but would be useless for cutting the cabling because of how brittle a box cutter blade can be...

So, is perception more important, or "proof of use"?

[Dale Seago]

Could go either way for you in Chicago. 'Course, if you like CRKT (and I do myself), you could always just go for a different model, like this one:

http://www.knifesite.com/fullsize/CR6782.jpg

[Cruentus]

So, is perception more important, or "proof of use"?

I'd say both. If the knife is used in self-defense, it boils down to if your attorney can beat up the prosecuting in court. So, it's best to have your ducks in a row in as many ways as you can beforehand. If you can avoid getting the knife that is marketed or percieved as a "fighting knife" AND that cuts you cable well, that is preferable.


I wish I had advice on a good cable cutter off the top of my head, but I don't cut a lot of cable so I am probably not the best person to ask. What comes to mind though is the new SOG trident TF-2 or TF-3: (http://www.sogknives.com/Folding/SOG-Trident/TF-2.htm)

The reason this comes to my mind is because I am looking at getting one myself. They have a little notch in the handle that they call the "groove," basically it allows you to use your blade as a wire cutter or line cutter without having to open the knife. I don't know about cutting cable, but that may work.

However, this knife is terrible for "perception;" with its automatic feature it may not even be legal to carry in your state, with its tactical look and marketing towards operators this gives the prosecutor a heck of a lot of ammo to use against you.

I was thinking another choice to look into would be something like an Xicar cigar cutting knife: http://www.xikar.com/knives_xi744.asp?order_id=

Instead of cutting Cigars, your could use the hole feature to cut cable? You might have to modify it though.


I only thought of these two options because these are two toys I am looking into getting next. I am sure there are other options that'll do a better job...

Paul

[Cruentus]

The few times I had to cut wire or cable though, my spyderco persian did a fine job: http://www.newgraham.com/persian.htm

But again, I don't know about repeated and continue use for the job, but I can attest that the persian has a very strong and durable blade and handle.

If you like that design but want an even sturdier, bigger handle and blade, I say go with the Chinook II (but take this guys review with a grain of salt): http://www.knifenetwork.com/reviews/review_02_spyd_chinook_al.shtml

O.K...I'll shut up now and let someone who knows more about cable cutting speak... ;)

Paul

[Cryozombie]

O.K...I'll shut up now and let someone who knows more about cable cutting speak... ;)

Paul
Nah, its good input. Im thinking along these lines tho, and I dont think I was clear in my original post...

I want a knife that is first and formost good for self-defense, WHILE AT THE SAME TIME being "utility" enough to use on a daily basis... thats why I dont just carry a swiss or a leatherman...

And my question is pretty much in line with, how well does that translate in the courtroom?

[Dale Seago]

And my question is pretty much in line with, how well does that translate in the courtroom?

Well, that pretty much gets back to my last post above: You can expect the D.A.'s prosecutor to use every possible sleazy trick, and if you're lucky you'll have someone like me on your jury or as an expert witness for the defense. (Of course, the latter could be arranged without "luck" even being involved.)

[Cruentus]

Well, that pretty much gets back to my last post above: You can expect the D.A.'s prosecutor to use every possible sleazy trick, and if you're lucky you'll have someone like me on your jury or as an expert witness for the defense. (Of course, the latter could be arranged without "luck" even being involved.)

Agreed, and exactly what I say about the prosecutor. So, one needs to stack the cards in their favor in every way that they can before an incident, because during a self-defense encounter that requires lethal force, the last thing you want to be thinking about is how much trouble your going to get into.

I say check out the Spyderco Persian. It's beautifully crafted with a nice hefty blade that holds an edge well, and it looks more like your outdoorsman's or fishing knife rather then a tactical tool of destruction. It'll uphold rugged use as well, and can handle most tasts; so I assume it'll handle cutting cable just fine.

Paul

[Kreth]

As a PC tech, who is often charged with manufacturing Category 5 (cat5) cabling for our Motorolla Canopy Wireless internet connection, I often need a knife for cutting and splicing cabling.
Ok, now you're just confusing people: Cat5 for a wireless connection...? ;)
Seriously, I tend to use a dedicated cutter when terminating cable. Something like this (http://www.lanshack.com/product1.asp?SID=10&Product_ID=173)...

Jeff

[hicho]

Ok, now you're just confusing people: Cat5 for a wireless connection...? ;)
Seriously, I tend to use a dedicated cutter when terminating cable. Something like this (http://www.lanshack.com/product1.asp?SID=10&Product_ID=173)...

JeffHahaha...that's funny Jeff,

We use Motorola's Canopy wireless backhaul for a seven-building WAN at work. The Canopy system uses shielded CAT-5 for power injection and data to the wireless radio itself - hence the reason for cutting CAT-5.

I carry a Kershaw or Al Mar "clip it", but usually cut CAT-5 with a pair of wire cutters or RJ-45 crimpers.

[Kreth]

We use Motorola's Canopy wireless backhaul for a seven-building WAN at work. The Canopy system uses shielded CAT-5 for power injection and data to the wireless radio itself - hence the reason for cutting CAT-5.
I understood. It just looked strange when I first read the post. Although, now that you mention it, I'm surprised they don't use Cat6 instead...

I carry a Kershaw or Al Mar "clip it", but usually cut CAT-5 with a pair of wire cutters or RJ-45 crimpers.
And just so I'm not accused of thread-hijacking: I think my Cold Steel ProLite would be a bit of overkill for stripping cable... ;)

Jeff

[Rich Parsons]

Unfortunately it does fall within the statutory description of a "switchblade" in section 653K of the California Penal Code (see my post on this on page 5 of this thread). It's not illegal to own a switchblade, but it is a misdemeanor to purchase, import, or to possess one other than on your own property.

The relevant part here -- emphasis added by me, below -- is:

For the purposes of this section, "switchblade knife" means a knife having the appearance of a pocketknife and includes a spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife or any other similar type knife, the blade or blades of which are two or more inches in length and which can be released automatically by a flick of a button, pressure on the handle, flip of the wrist or other mechanical device, or is released by the weight of the blade or by any type of mechanism whatsoever. "Switchblade knife" does not include a knife that opens with one hand utilizing thumb pressure applied solely to the blade of the knife or a thumb stud attached to the blade, provided that the knife has a detent or other mechanism that provides resistance that must be overcome in opening the blade, or that biases the blade back toward its closed position.


For whatever it's worth, if it was a wee bitty balisong with a 1.9" blade, it would not legally be considered a switchblade.

Dale,

Thank you.

My problem is that even though thumb studs or thumb whole knives require a little work, almost all (* All I have handled *) can be opened with the flip of a wrist. So, I could see a officer with a grudge or attitude could think the pocket knife was not acceptable as well.

Is the fact that the statute specifically states does not include those devices with a thumb stud disqualify these blades, even though there is not enough resistance, and a wrist flip will open them? I realize this is for California only.

Still curious

Thanks

[Dale Seago]

Is the fact that the statute specifically states does not include those devices with a thumb stud disqualify these blades, even though there is not enough resistance, and a wrist flip will open them? I realize this is for California only.

As a matter of fact, that language was added to the statute -- went into effect in 2002 as I recall -- precisely because law enforcement officers were charging people with misdemeanors simply because they were in possession of folders which could, if one tried hard enough or enough times, be opened with no other action than a wrist-flick.

[GAB]

Quote here>>>>
As far as american sensitivity, I don't 'teach' blade deployment or more offensive/pre-emptive blade technique to those not invioved with military or law enforcement. I wouldn't feel comfortable doing so with most students. I do, however, teach blade defense and retention to those who want it...[/QUOTE]
Hi.
I like this Quote, Regarding sensitivity of knife fighting in America, especially CA.

Most of the stuff in martial arts are a felony if you carry or use. Yes it is nice to know how to defend and counter. But to cut and maim and kill is a whole nother thing.

I come from a law enforcent back ground and can't seem to break that mentality.

I have quite a bit of a different attitude...

I believe empty hand is the way to go and then there is the intelligence to not go there in the first place... But hey, I am not a 25 year old male running around with a lot of testosterone and ignorance, regarding most out comes, of knife fights and shootings.

Seen the other side and it is not pretty and no second chances when you are mortally wounded because you failed to pick the correct action.

Hard some times, but you need to know that America, is a place with lots of laws and that is the way to handle it. Not in a street fight with an illegal knife that some bozo in a martial arts class want's to sell you.

I wish they would start prosecuting the teachers and not the student who has been primed for this stupidity...

Just my thoughts on this.

Regards, Gary

[Rich Parsons]

As a matter of fact, that language was added to the statute -- went into effect in 2002 as I recall -- precisely because law enforcement officers were charging people with misdemeanors simply because they were in possession of folders which could, if one tried hard enough or enough times, be opened with no other action than a wrist-flick.

Thank you Dale.

I like to understand the other state's history and statutes as well, as I travel and also many a state will adopt what others have as a starting point.

Best regards

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This thread has been dormant for a while, so I just thought I'd share something I forgot to mention before...while in Japan (Ueno one evening to be more precise) I was looking around for the place where someone had told me I could find an iaito, just outside the station, but managed to get lost just enough to find my way to a cutlery store where I asked the shopkeeper if he had any butterfly/balisong knives. He told me they were illegal in Japan. However, upon asking two police officers, they directed me to the (supposedly) infamous illegal weapons store I realized I had been looking for the whole time.:ultracool If it's a weapon, and illegal, that shop has it. Of course, the swords I found there weren't the most high-quality available, so I settled for an Al Mar Warrior, an Emerson kerambit knockoff and an aluminum aikuchi with a wooden lacquered scabbard. Though I'll admit I regret I didn't trust that the balisongs they offered were actual USA imports and got myself one...

[Don Roley]

On another forum Chris Moon, a very knowlegable practicioner of Takeuchi ryu, said the following.


Just recently I was watching the Takagi Yoshin Ryu video from Hatsumi Sensei and I could not help but notice how many of the kata there resemble Takenouchi Ryu kogusoku just minus the blade. It is not hard to make these interchangeable

I know that in Koto ryu certain sections are supposed to be used with small blades as variations of the standard kata. (BTW- Kizaru is the guy here that really knows the most about that school. If you get the chance to meet and train with him in it I would suggest you take it.) The above quote says to me that maybe other schools have that type of movement not just possible, but built in and intended.

I have thought about pushing one of the instructors I see fairly regularly now on the matter of formal knife fighting like in the Koto ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu and was wondering if anyone can make some suggestions on where to start, etc.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Aren't the "blades" used in Koto ryu teppan, rather than knives? If memory serves me correctly, teppan are like regular senban shuriken, only without sharpened edges (but still pointy enough to slash with).

[Don Roley]

Koto ryu does have Teppan and I used them in the year of Koto ryu here in Japan. But that is not what I was talking about.

[saru1968]

Hi All



So Far in my experience of training in the Bujinkan in britain, the person who's name pops up with regard to knfe fighting is Norman Smithers and so far i've yet to hear a negative about his knife skills.



If ever he's running a course on this go along and see for yourself. The way he uses knives with his taijutsu is amazing and like hidden weapons you only know hes got a knife after you've been cut/stabbed.



Only my opinion though.



Gary

[Don Roley]

For those that don't know Norman, he is ex- French Foreign Legion and SAS.

I don't think he knows my name, but we have interacted while he was here. I respect his knife skills, but I know he is trying to gain a deeper insight into the way things are done in Japan rather than his past experience.

[Kizaru]

I know that in Koto ryu certain sections are supposed to be used with small blades as variations of the standard kata.I've heard the same thing. Particularly that the first movements in the shoden level techniques are supposed to facilitate a smooth, concealed draw and the final movements are supposed to help you get your tool out of the opponent's body (like the left hand claw strike at the end of Yokuto or the Ganseki Nage at the end of Koyoku) so you're ready for the next attacker. Other sections have other fine points as well. As far as it being a "small blade" though, I think that's all relative. I could be wrong, but I think traditionally, that "small blade" was a shoto or wakizashi or something similar to the Takenouchi ryu kogusoku wedged into the belt flat across the belly. Of course, I'm sure with a little imagination, anyone could apply the principles to a modern folder or what not.


(BTW- Kizaru is the guy here that really knows the most about that school. If you get the chance to meet and train with him in it I would suggest you take it.) I would suggest you don't believe everything you read on the internet.


(The above quote says to me that maybe other schools have that type of movement not just possible, but built in and intended.I would agree.



(Aren't the "blades" used in Koto ryu teppan, rather than knives? If memory serves me correctly, teppan are like regular senban shuriken, only without sharpened edges (but still pointy enough to slash with).Once again I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that senban shuriken were organic to Koto ryu Koppojutsu while the teppan (flat iron plate) was organic to another form of Koppojutsu taught in the Bujinkan. I believe that the founder of that art had a reputation for being able to break swords with a single punch; although he probably had a teppan concealed in his hand when pulling it off.

As far as the sharpened edges on senban shuriken, it's been my experience that the edges are NOT sharpened, so that they can be "palmed" similar to how a modern magician would "palm" a coin.

[Kizaru]

The following page has some photos of Takenouchi ryu students training with the kogusoku.

http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Actually, I recall having been told about the difference between senban shuriken and teppan while in Japan, but I don't know by whom.

[Kizaru]

The following page has some photos of Takenouchi ryu students training with the kogusoku.

http://www.geocities.jp/minamoto_hitotsugu/
Sorry, to see the page with the kogusoku, you need to click on 小具足腰之廻(the second one down from "menu").

Enjoy.

[Kreth]

Sorry, to see the page with the kogusoku, you need to click on 小具足腰之廻(the second one down from "menu").

Enjoy.
It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Jeff

[r erman]

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Jeff

As far as I know, 'kogusoku' is another term for unarmed and small weapons combat--like jujutsu, taijutsu, yawara...etc.

Maybe, I'm missing something. Are you talking about kozuka-kogai?

[r erman]

It's kind of hard to tell from the pics on that site, is the kogusoku a specific type of knife, or a dull-edged weapon similar to a kunai? A google search turned up mostly aikijujutsu and jujutsu sites, and what appears to be a French escrima site.

Answered my own and your question. Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku is a specific set of kata within that ryu that deal with tanto and wakazashi grappling techniques...

FWIW, Yanagi Ryu has a pretty extensive system of tantojutsu--I believe Bugei.com still sells a video covering some of this.

[Kreth]

Answered my own and your question. Takenouchi Ryu Kogusoku is a specific set of kata within that ryu that deal with tanto and wakazashi grappling techniques...

FWIW, Yanagi Ryu has a pretty extensive system of tantojutsu--I believe Bugei.com still sells a video covering some of this.
Thanks, that makes sense. When I read Kizaru's post referring to the kogusoku, I assumed he was referring to a weapon. Looking back at a few of the links I turned up, they seem to jibe with your previous post.

Jeff

[Kizaru]

Thanks, that makes sense. When I read Kizaru's post referring to the kogusoku, I assumed he was referring to a weapon. I've been to visit a Takenouchi ryu dojo in the Tokyo area, and the students and shihan refered to the long training knives they were using as "kogusoku". They refered to the techniques as "Kogusoku No Gata". Now, I'm not part of the Takenouchi ryu, but I'm guessing that somewhere in there's some dojo jargon rearing it's head. Spoken and written Japanese, like spoken and written English, are often a little different.

The webpage I cited before has this to say:


この小具足腰之廻の形は、われ、相手とも一尺二寸の小太刀を用いて、座合から組討となり、相手を小太刀で仕 留める技で、鎧組討を想定した形である。相手は素手の場合や太刀で掛かる形もあります。Rou ghly translated: "In these Kogusoku Goshi No Mawari Gata, myself, along with my opponent are using kodachi of 1 shaku 2 sun (about 14 inches). This is a hypothetical form of attack and defense, where from both of us being seated we come together in attack and the opponent is brought down by a technique with the kodachi. There are also situations [or applications] where the opponent is unarmed or using a tachi."

So, formally they're calling the long knife they're using (on that particular page) a "kodachi of 1 shaku 2 sun". I think informally, they refer to it as a "kogusoku".

Semantics, semantics, semantics.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A while ago I toyed with the idea of giving someone a surprise by doing a John McClane - that is, strapping a weapon (in this case a knife) between my shoulder blades. Since I figured it would make rolling on semi-hard surfaces a bit awkward I gave up the idea, but lately I've been thinking about getting a Benchmade CBK and removing the cutting edge to achieve the desired result. Any thoughts on this, or for that matter, push knives in general?

[Brian R. VanCise]

Nimravus,

I truly enjoy working out with Push Knives and they are extremly effective for close encounters! One of the advantages of them is that they are hard to disarm, though not impossible! They also puncture well and can slash! They are a great tool for the military operator! However, for pure self defense, while they would be great to use they are generally illegal in most places and would really catch the eye of the Police or the local prosecutor! For that reason in my opinion they are more of a military application tool than a pure self defense tool! I know if I was behind enemy lines, after my M-16 (or equivalent), handgun, grenade, possibly Machete or Tomahawk a push dagger would be a very effective tool down the line!

Brian R. VanCise

[Cryozombie]

Speaking of Push knives... a freind of mine sent me a link to this for 5 bucks...


Im sure the quality is OH SO FINE...<cough cough> but I think I may order one to add to my collection...

[arnisador]

Why the two blades? It looks like scissors!

[Kreth]

I think also that that particular knife could get you into trouble in areas where balisongs are illegal, as it has two pivoting blades...

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Any opinions on the Spyderco Yojimbo? I'm torn between the fact that I kind of like the unconventional blade profile and the fact that I don't want to contribute to Michael Janich's economy...:uhyeah:

[Don Roley]

Any opinions on the Spyderco Yojimbo? I'm torn between the fact that I kind of like the unconventional blade profile and the fact that I don't want to contribute to Michael Janich's economy...:uhyeah:

A) the blade shape seems to favor thrusting over cutting. And with a folder a lot of people say that you should concentrate on cutting.

B) this was a knife designed for fighting. You get caught with the thing after an incident and trying to convince the DA that you were not looking for a fight gets a lot harder. Thousands of dollars in lawer's fees harder.

C) it does not seem to be as usefull for every day tasks as a Delica or an Endura. You get a lot more use out of a knife (read "experience") with daily use and are a lot less likely to think of it as dead weight if it is something you can use to cut twine, cardboard, etc.

Just as an aside, my views on knives are that they are tools that can be used as weapons if needed. I carried my knife today even though all I was going to was a school on the eve of the day before school begins. You never know what you might need to cut up. But if I was thinking that there might be trouble, I don't reach for a knife (that is just a daily thing) but instead go for pepper spray and in extreme cases an ASP baton. The knife really is a tool for me. And as such, I am more likely to have it on me when things go south than anything that is mainly a weapon.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A) the blade shape seems to favor thrusting over cutting. And with a folder a lot of people say that you should concentrate on cutting.

B) this was a knife designed for fighting. You get caught with the thing after an incident and trying to convince the DA that you were not looking for a fight gets a lot harder. Thousands of dollars in lawer's fees harder.

C) it does not seem to be as usefull for every day tasks as a Delica or an Endura. You get a lot more use out of a knife (read "experience") with daily use and are a lot less likely to think of it as dead weight if it is something you can use to cut twine, cardboard, etc.


Not going to argue about B (a moot point anyway since I don't carry knives on my person regularly, I'm more of a collector/knifesturbator:ultracool ), but knowing the MBC curriculum, I don't think it was designed to thrust any more than slash. As for C, I honestly don't see the reason, other than perhaps what appears to be a very thin and fragile point.

[Dale Seago]

B) this was a knife designed for fighting.

Coulda fooled me -- I thought it was a folding kiridashi:

http://www.canit.se/~griffon/knives/misc/jap_gard1.jpg

I rather like the "shirasaya" version, personally: It's just a short stick until you need it to be something else. :wink2:

Not to mention that these are a helluva lot less expensive. The laminated steel is a nice feature too.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Well, yes...but no finger choil or guard on those...I like my fingers.:idunno:

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Can anyone else but me read my last post? Just checking.

[Cryozombie]

I can.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Aiight, it seems that the database hung up on me for a while, and even after my typing Dale's writing appeared as the last thread entry.

[Dale Seago]

Can anyone else but me read my last post? Just checking.

Nope, can't read it.

Sissy.

:p

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You just go ahead and take a trip to Eureka Valley with your pretty skirt on. :rofl:

In the meantime I'll go fry up some bacon with a bare torso. Now who's El Macho!?%-}

[arnisador]

I read you loud and clear!

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Recently noticed that Knifecenter just put out something I've been waiting for quite a while now (for reasons recently mentioned in this thread):

http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=CR2907T

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hi Nimravus,

The Hissatsu was developed by James Williams of Bugei who does
sell some excellent products. While I have not held the trainer or
the real thing in my hands I have been thinking about buying one
soon! The design of the knife looks great! Definately going to have
to get one soon!

Brian R. VanCise

[Don Roley]

I had a little incident last night.

I was reading the paper while on the train to class when my radar started pinging and I found a guy coming straight toward me. It was clear he had too much to drink and the term 'liquid courage' would be appropriate in this case.

I talked with him and settled the matter without incident. He got off the train the stop after he started trying to talk to me. I think I scared him and his depature was a face- saving retreat.

After he got off, I put the pocket knife I had pulled and had hidden in my right hand back where I carry it. No one on the train, much less the guy who was the most immediate threat, knew I had pulled it out and had it in my hand and ready to use at any time.

I have been looking through all the books and such I have on 'knife fighting' today and I can't seem to find one that seems to deal with the idea of getting a knife ready to deploy without actually attacking with it or taking an obvious stance and such. I suspect it is just something I have picked up through the years I have been here.

Is the idea of getting something like a knife ready to use without at least posturing with it something that anyone has heard of being taught outside of ninjutsu? Has anyone who trains in ninjutsu at least played with the idea?

[Jonathan Randall]

I had a little incident last night.

I was reading the paper while on the train to class when my radar started pinging and I found a guy coming straight toward me. It was clear he had too much to drink and the term 'liquid courage' would be appropriate in this case.

I talked with him and settled the matter without incident. He got off the train the stop after he started trying to talk to me. I think I scared him and his depature was a face- saving retreat.

After he got off, I put the pocket knife I had pulled and had hidden in my right hand back where I carry it. No one on the train, much less the guy who was the most immediate threat, knew I had pulled it out and had it in my hand and ready to use at any time.

I have been looking through all the books and such I have on 'knife fighting' today and I can't seem to find one that seems to deal with the idea of getting a knife ready to deploy without actually attacking with it or taking an obvious stance and such. I suspect it is just something I have picked up through the years I have been here.

Is the idea of getting something like a knife ready to use without at least posturing with it something that anyone has heard of being taught outside of ninjutsu? Has anyone who trains in ninjutsu at least played with the idea?

Yes, I had a similiar experience last year. I was reading at a Starbucks when I heard a loud voice. When I looked up I saw a man who's demeanor and physical appearance screamed Methamphetamines. Before I realized this, I had made eye contact with him - which, BTW, triggers paranoids. He turned to the person with him and said that he was going to "fist fight that boy", referring to me. Because, as a painter, I usually carry a utility knife, I had to consider my options and I pretty much did exactly as you did. Fortunately, he left without incident. Meth is a MAJOR problem in Northern California and a California Highway Patrol Officer was recently murdered in a case that was related to Meth trafficking.

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showpost.php?p=71590&postcount=15

[Brian R. VanCise]

Hey Don,

To your question above about getting out the tool so that you
are ready to deploy it is something I teach and have been taught
both in Budo Taijutsu and also in FMA. If you have a tool you need
to be in position to deploy it if needed. I have had similar incidents
to yours above and it is important to be smooth in what you do
so that the other person has no clue what is going on. I am glad
that you were able to diffuse the situation verbally, as that is always
the best option.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining (http://www.instinctiveresponsetraining)

[arnisador]

I'm glad you were able to safely defuse that situation. People underestimate the value of confidence that one can get from martial arts training.


Is the idea of getting something like a knife ready to use without at least posturing with it something that anyone has heard of being taught outside of ninjutsu?

Definitely in FMA, both as a tactic and as a warning that others will use this approach against you. The hidden or unseen knife is always a threat.

[Rich Parsons]

I had a little incident last night.

I was reading the paper while on the train to class when my radar started pinging and I found a guy coming straight toward me. It was clear he had too much to drink and the term 'liquid courage' would be appropriate in this case.

I talked with him and settled the matter without incident. He got off the train the stop after he started trying to talk to me. I think I scared him and his depature was a face- saving retreat.

After he got off, I put the pocket knife I had pulled and had hidden in my right hand back where I carry it. No one on the train, much less the guy who was the most immediate threat, knew I had pulled it out and had it in my hand and ready to use at any time.

I have been looking through all the books and such I have on 'knife fighting' today and I can't seem to find one that seems to deal with the idea of getting a knife ready to deploy without actually attacking with it or taking an obvious stance and such. I suspect it is just something I have picked up through the years I have been here.

Is the idea of getting something like a knife ready to use without at least posturing with it something that anyone has heard of being taught outside of ninjutsu? Has anyone who trains in ninjutsu at least played with the idea?

Don,

Glad all went well.

I know Paul J teaches the pull and make it available technqiues, as well as the legal ramifications of the local state.

If asked by a close student I will go over it myself with them. Not something I usually teach to general public.

From my experience, when I had a knife in my pocket if I did not pull it upon first thought of approach, it would be too late and remain in my pocket through the altercation. If a weapon is out of your reach, then it is out of the fight. If you have no time to get it yourself. There are clear drills for getting range and dealing with accessing the weapon, but if you get into trapping and grappling range, and reamin there, you have to have a weapon in a place you can acesss without giving the opponent too much of a momentary advantage. Some FMA's teach you to check the opponent for your own safety and for access to a weapon while your hands are busy with the opponent.

[Dale Seago]

Don, I've done that on occasion, as have a number of my students, and it's also something I explicitly teach.


From my experience, when I had a knife in my pocket if I did not pull it upon first thought of approach, it would be too late and remain in my pocket through the altercation. If a weapon is out of your reach, then it is out of the fight. If you have no time to get it yourself. There are clear drills for getting range and dealing with accessing the weapon, but if you get into trapping and grappling range, and reamin there, you have to have a weapon in a place you can acesss without giving the opponent too much of a momentary advantage. Some FMA's teach you to check the opponent for your own safety and for access to a weapon while your hands are busy with the opponent.

Rich, I agree with you here. Regarding your last sentence in particular, this is something Hatsumi sensei teaches as well.

[Rich Parsons]

Don, I've done that on occasion, as have a number of my students, and it's also something I explicitly teach.



Rich, I agree with you here. Regarding your last sentence in particular, this is something Hatsumi sensei teaches as well.


Dale,

Good Technique is not unique to one specific art. :D :) :asian:

[Don Roley]

Dale,

Good Technique is not unique to one specific art. :D :) :asian:

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

[Rich Parsons]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

Well, I know I would have, and have had issues with such an idea in print with my name attached to it. I know this to be true of one of my instructors as well.

Those in the know would see it as common sense, and they can come and see me or others and get that training. Yet, in the USA a Knife is an offensive weapon while the gun is a defensive weapon. So, if you teach people to have a weapon out, the person coming at you is no longer the aggressor, or at least in Michigan this is true. You have elevated the situation even if the other person does not know it. Why did you pull it, unless you intended to stab or cut the bad person. What this means in the eyes of the law is that this is premeditated and therefore not self defense.

Why do not others put it in print? I am not sure. but they may have had some legal advice in North America. As to other countries and older texts, one might assume that pre 20th century, every one carried a knife as a tool and also as a last resort fo self defense. In some places it might be pre 19th century.

[Don Roley]

So, if you teach people to have a weapon out, the person coming at you is no longer the aggressor, or at least in Michigan this is true. You have elevated the situation even if the other person does not know it. Why did you pull it, unless you intended to stab or cut the bad person. What this means in the eyes of the law is that this is premeditated and therefore not self defense.

Interesting. During the little incident, I did not deploy the blade and had my thumb ready to do so. Aside from the 'click' it makes, on some level I was thinking of being able to take care of a situation using it more like a koppo stick if it turned out to be no weapons involved. As soon as I could see both of his hands, I knew this to be the case.

What about knives like the Gunting, that are designed to be used with the blade closed? It seems like you might be setting yourself up for some real trouble by going half way with using a knife when the law only knows one or the other.

[Dale Seago]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

It's kuden rather than formal-transmission material. :-)

The legal issue is of course important to us. Accessing a folder in advance, while keeping it concealed, is not necessarily in itself illegal because it does not constitute "brandishing" the tool. It's not threatening anyone. Generally speaking, if it's legal to carry on your person it's legal to hold it in your hand.

[Rich Parsons]

Interesting. During the little incident, I did not deploy the blade and had my thumb ready to do so. Aside from the 'click' it makes, on some level I was thinking of being able to take care of a situation using it more like a koppo stick if it turned out to be no weapons involved. As soon as I could see both of his hands, I knew this to be the case.

What about knives like the Gunting, that are designed to be used with the blade closed? It seems like you might be setting yourself up for some real trouble by going half way with using a knife when the law only knows one or the other.

Well speaking from local laws only, the prosecuters will open the blade and show the jury or judge what could have happened or what you were willing to do with the weapon. If your truly want to use a Gunting like device the obtain the trainer or the CRIMPT (* usually law enforcement *) for impact only. In other states it might be a little different, yet most states refer to the blade as an offensive weapon.

Click on the sponsor for the Armory, GLSDA, and register there, as they try to educate and lobby for laws that are user friendly for self defense.


The tool itself is not a bad idea or design, it just does not sit well inside of my pocket. The ramp pokes me, and the pocket holder does as well. Not on my loose jeans or work dress pants (* Which I am not allowed to have the device *). But if I ride on my motor cycle it is uncomfortable.

So, I carry pens for the type of impact technqiues, and if I carry a blade it is capable of being carried no matter what I wear, shorts, work slacks, jeans, etcetera.

[arnisador]

I've heard the Gunting argued both ways...that if kept closed it's "only" a nonlethal tool, and that even if you use it closed you are still using a (deadly) knife on someone. I don't know what people would say...I know in the well-known NYC bouncer case (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=384) (bouncer killed while trying to eject a smoking patron), the judge cited the "evil-looking" knife as part of his reason for the sentence he imposed. (Lots of discussion of this on Eskrima Digest.) I think the Gunting is a good idea, but expect grief if it's found on you, I'd guess.

[arnisador]

But it is strange that in all the sources I have on 'knife fighting' there does not seem to be a mention of the idea of getting to a knife and having it in hand secretly. The only mention is a story by Marc MacYoung in one of his books. Of course, MacYoung is pretty much down on the macho 'knifer' culture that seems to surround those that identify themselves with knife fighting.

He has posted some interesting material on Eskrima Digest recently. It's lead to a discussion that is somewhat politically incorrect, but still makes interesting reading. See e.g. the link contained here (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?t=411).

I bought his recent 'Secrets' book but haven't started it yet.

[Cruentus]

Don,


I know Paul J teaches the pull and make it available technqiues, as well as the legal ramifications of the local state.


We do cover this extensively in our programs. Our basic idea is that a weapon is no good unless it is in your hand and available. We cover tactics from many diffferent possibilities, including palm ready and pocket ready tactics.

I will agree, though, that most martial arts schools don't cover these aspects. Generally speaking, it doesn't fit their training objectives.

Paul

[Cruentus]

Also, one more quick comment as I have limited time.

I see that there is some discussion here about the knife as an impact tool. Thinking about using a knife as an impact tool is like thinking about using your pistol as a club. You might be facing less legal ramifications if you "pistol whip" someone rather then shoot them, but then again.....

There are many shades of gray here, unfortunately. But think of it along these lines, because once you have a knife out the force continuum goes up IMEDIATELY, possibly making a scuffle turn into a lethal force encounter INITIATED BY YOU WHO PUT THE KNIFE INTO PLAY. So, you have a few choices to make and things to think about here so that you can make the right decisions under stress that will protect you both physically and legally.

Good luck,

Paul Janulis

[budomuso]

I work out with the knife a lot. I mean, a lot.

I noticed on another board that people were talking about Bujinkan Knife fighting skills as if they were going to face a knife with a knife.

I know the guy that has this web site (http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html) and according to him and other I trust, that just does not happen all that much in North America.

I try to use a knife as if I was facing a club or a short sword. Does anyone else do stuff like this, or do they also use it as if it was going to be a knife duel?

For that matter, I was wondering just how sensitive a subject teaching people how to carve up others is in North America. I will not be in Japan my whole life
and was wondering just how much trouble Bujinkan instructors might get into by teaching both ninjutsu and knife fighiting. America can be a pretty silly place in terms of things like that.

Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

Don, ask your teacher.

[dougp]

You should check out the AMOK system at www.knifefighting.com (http://www.knifefighting.com). They are huge into the blade. You may get some good info there.

Doug

[Cryozombie]

Doug, thanks for the link, but Don is asking SPECIFICALLY about Bujinkan methods:



Please, no comments about FMA or anything like that. I have trained in and have a lot of respect for the arts of south east Asia, but if I wanted to ask about a knife fighting system other than the Bujinkan way, I can ask in the appropriate section.

[Nexus]

Every Monday at our dojo, we are asked what we'd like to work on the most. I'm always the first to shout, Knife defence! he he he...but we run through quite a few drills in which we are unarmed and the uke is armed with a tanto... here in Melbourne, we do get alot of Junkies approaching people with a knife of syringe demanding money...yes the wise thing would be to hand the cash over, but you never know what they might do once the money is in their hand. So we train against wild slashes, thrusts, lunges the works.

On the legalities, it's amazing how often my sensei says: "once you've disarmed your opponent, this could "accidentally" occur" and show a finishing technique ;)

[Don Roley]

Don, ask your teacher.

I have. I suspect that I have been shown more about Japanese ways of using a knife than anyone in the Bujinkan overseas. Every time it is just the two of us and he asks what I want, I pull out the knives.

But living in Japan, I do not know about the way things are taught in North America and my teacher can't answer my questions.

I have learned a lot about the legalities and such from this thread and I would like to thank all the people who have answered in a costructive manner.

[Don Roley]

On the legalities, it's amazing how often my sensei says: "once you've disarmed your opponent, this could "accidentally" occur" and show a finishing technique ;)

That is not wise.

If you disarm the other guy you do not need to kill him. And I find the idea of playing around at cold- blooded murder rather offensive.

Oh, and have you ever had someone drop out of training in your dojo? Guess what will happen if someone like that reads about a student of their old dojo killing someone in an accident after disarming a knife attack? Do you think that maybe he might just come forward, with other ex-students, to tell people how you were shown how to stage an "accident"?

Oh yeah, you are going to prison for a long time and your Bujinkan teacher will bring shame on the entire orginization. Hatsumi has never taught an "accidental" way of killing someone like that while I was around. I would suggest you tell your teacher he should talk to him about the matter next time he comes to Japan.

[Cryozombie]

Speaking of knife fighting... if you missed the very GRAPHIC photos (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31868) of what a knife wound looks like posted by Bigsahdow in the general section, I suggest a look. Not because I am morbid and they are gross (tho, both of those things are true) but because I think Bigshadow did us a service posting them there as a reality check.

[Tengu6]

Does anybody have any info about a system that opens a spyderco quickly? It has something to do with zip ties I think. i thought there was a post about it in here but I cant fiind it.

I recently purchased a Spyderco Native and unlike ANY spyderco I have previosly owned, this thing is vertualy impossible to open one handed, I am wondering if it is defective. It openes with no resistance 2 handed, but one handed the blade will not budge.

Markk Bush

[Cruentus]

Use a two handed opening method.

We prefer a two handed opening method (or what I call the "old-timers opener") because it is far more reliable then most of the "industry" opening methods, kenetic opening methods, or pocket catches that are out there. On top of reliability, with practice and proper execution, a two handed opener can be as fast or faster then other kenetic opening methods.

The fact is, some of the Spyderco's don't open kenetically well. That is O.K., however, as they are still good knives. My favorite carry knife was the Spyderco Persian for awhile, which basically has to be open two handed (or one handed fumbling with the thumb hole, which I do not recommend).

Sometimes, the simple-stupidest method is the best, in my opinion...

Paul

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A ziptie in a spyderhole may work as a modified wave feature. Though it seems a lot of people have experienced mishaps from doing it.
I have a Spyderco Civilian which initially was quite hard to open with inertia or otherwise. The trick is to grip it underneath the blade's balance point, and like a lot of knives reverse inertia openings are actually a little easier. I also have a Benchmade 350 which was quite stiff out of the box, a little oil took care of that.

Though recently, I think I'm beginning to head more towards Dale's direction...if you have time to access and open a folder, there are probably better courses of action available to handle the situation.

[arnisador]

Use a two handed opening method.

See the discussion here (http://fmatalk.com/showthread.php?p=3691#post3691) for more on this!

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I hereby give the Emerson Hard-Wear Endeavor my unqualified endorsement.