In my readings of American History, during the expansion period between 1801 and 1831, I came across a method of fighting practiced by riverboatmen, miners, trappers, and mountainmen called "Rough & Tumble", which was described as the meanest, foulest form of dirty fighting known. Everything was allowed: knives, guns, biting, spitting, kicking, gouging, and foul language. Every dirty trick was allowed, and not only were these done in self-defense, but "rough & tumble" matches were organized in the early 'rendevouz' camps and riverboat & mining settlements.

Has anyone else come across the "rough & tumble" method of American fighting?

It does sound familiar. I'm thinking the Mountainman/Trapper Rondezvous. About a year ago, I visited the Mountainman Museum in Pinedale, Wyoming. They showed a film on it's history and activities. I'm going to see if they have a website to find out if that's where I've heard about it. If I find anything out, I'll post back.

We have a book in the University Library here called ROUGH AND TUMBLE FIGHTING but it is just simple old style judo. I do not think that is what you are looking for.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
Woodland Archery (http://www.WoodlandArchery.com)

Sounds like the origins of the bare knuckle boxing matchs that became sanctioned fighting now.

I wonder how much contact with Native Americans had on this "Rough and Tumble" stuff.

Was it set up as a 'how to' book or just an informational text?

Seems like fun! :boxing: I found this link on the net that might provide some extra info.
http://ahfaa.org/unarmed.htm

The book I found was a "how-to" style book the demostrated basic Judo type information. I know the book was published in London England.

Not sure about the Native American influence on this style of fighting. I think it was more of a testerone influenced sport then anything. Come on...with all that free time, what else is their to do but beat each other up :whip:

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
Woodland Archery (http://www.WoodlandArchery.com)

The book I found was a "how-to" style book the demostrated basic Judo type information. I know the book was published in London England.

Not sure about the Native American influence on this style of fighting. I think it was more of a testerone influenced sport then anything. Come on...with all that free time, what else is their to do but beat each other up :whip:

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
Woodland Archery (http://www.woodlandarchery.com/)
Do you know what a 'stump trained (fill in the livestock of your choice) animal" is? :)

Last i checked this style as called a 'Backwoods Brawl' and i bet its hard to watch :P

See "Gouge and Bite, Pull Hair and Scratch: The Social Significance of Fighting in the Southern Backcountry" by Elliott J. Gorn, found at:

http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm (http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/2001/jmanlyart_gorn_0401.htm)

Interestingly I just got done reading a book by Louis L'amour called Flint. One of the characters says "Nobody ever stood up to me in a fistfight, nor a rough and tumble either." Later in the book Flint and this man fought and the fight is well described. It mentions the charcters doing techniques like the "flying mare" and other well known techniques. Louis is known for doing his research and I found this part of the novel very interesting. He might no more about this fighting style.

ive read books about this too. there was stand-up fist fight fighting in which the fighters would loosely follow queensbury rules. then there was rough and tumble, which was simply anything goes......but i never heard of guns or knives and other weapons being used.

Interestingly enough "Rough & Tumble" is mentioned in the Disney Davey Crockett movie in the scene where he fights "Bigfoot". The scene contains things like throwing sand in the opponents eyes and biting fingers so it seems similar enough. Of course it's Disney though so no eyes get gouged out.

I'm a huge Louis L'Amour fan, I've read all of his books many times. L'Amour was a boxer who won 51 of 59 professional fights and all of his books have great fight sequences with very descriptive action.