EPAK Old vs. New

[Hand Sword]

Greetings to all of the kenpo practioners out here. I have a question maybe some of you can enlighten me on. I have heard and read about what is now the EPAK system is not what GM Ed Parker did, or taught to some of the Old Schoolers of your lineage. I was wondering, What are the differences, and why did GM Parker change it to the way it is taught? Thank you, and respect to all of you!

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

There is some really neat stuff out there that just does not translate well for instruction to the masses. There is a line between what really works well, and what works well-enough, and that line has a lot to do with the ability to make a living as a martial arts instructor.

I can imagine the dillemma: How does one temper down the material enough to make it palatable to the masses with checkbooks, but not so far down that people training it end up representing the bottom of the heap?

I asked a similar-veined question at a seminar recently, particularly regarding the differences in content and training styles between "then" and "now", since I started kenpo when it was still "grab and beat" karate for maiming, with a technical twist. Now, "it" (American Kenpo in general...keep in mind, each teacher has their own take on how they teach and what they teach, and not all kenpo is created equal, or related equally to the people learning it) seems to be more technical than applicable, having been lost largely in a sea of it's own mumbo-jumbo. I learned techniques and freestyle combinations as "the one against a...", and that's how I remember them. Since then, definitions and algebraic equations seem to have taken over the application of combative logic (in my mind).

The answer I recieved was an interesting one, which included references to what kenpo was used for, and by whom back in the day, as well as making it more accessible to a wider audience of participants. Even then, the stuff I learned was about blasting a guy hard and fast, with flurries of strikes to vulnrable targets. That's given way to checking off angles of execution with borrowed force from the marriage of gravity, yadd-yadda-yadda. In recent months, I've had the opportunity to dialogue with Mr. Chapel regarding some of the real vs. distracting technical components of the art. There are some higher level understandings of kenpo that are more technical than the stuff people get lost jabbering about, but which are not readily amenable to the public for communication or consumption. Cool stuff; hard to talk about (gotta see it, feel it and try it to even start getting it).

It's kinda like the Matrix idea...it's out there, but you gotta look for it, because it's not in the mainstream. It's in garages, backyards, and hidden studios, because the public in general would consider it too hard, too confusing, or too much work. And some of it is so hard it's simple, with other stuff being so simple, it's hard.

If, to you, kenpo is rattling off definitions, memorizing equations, and whipping out techniques in sharp-n-snappy form, then don't bother looking for the Matrix. You won't like it when you find it (Take the pill that doesn't send you deeper down the rabbit hole).

1. "Old" kenpo was both more rudimentary (i.e., grab-&-beat karate), and more complex (Mr. Parkers' early addition of a heavier Chinese influence).

2. Simplified physically, but made more "interesting" academically births "mainstream" kenpo.

3. Stuff he taught some of his seniors but not all? New ideas he had been working on and cleaning up (years on some, many years on others), but either did not want to make mainstream, or was not ready to deliver to the mainstream.

I remember an interesting comment by Doc Chapel on another thread, in which he noted that none of the kenpo BB's on Martial Talk could pass one of his yellow belt tests. The immediate reaction was to assume he was not teaching kenpo. Doc's response was that, yes, he was teaching kenpo...just not the stuff everybody was used to. That there are differences in performance of the basics, cleaning up bad habits, etc., that pretty much everybody would do wrong...just because they didn't know better, and likely came from teachers who, though accomplished, probably did not know better, either. I think I may have been the only one out of the crowd of SoCal kenpoistas challenging Doc on that thread who bothered to check out the differences. He is right. A black belt in EPAK would not pass one of his yellow belt tests, and he is teaching kenpo.

To wrap up my little rant (sorry, all), I clearly remember watching Mr. Parker teaching seminars and classes to rooms full of black belts who were so entrenched in their engrained performance of a movement or idea, that they were UNABLE to change what they were doing to accomodate the lesson or tweak Mr. Parker was trying to illustrate and impart. Typically, after a couple attempts at clarification and correction, he would just forget about it and move on to the next topic. I wasn't always able to break my own baggage patterns to catch up with what I was seeing, or even see all that was going on, but it was clear to me that what he was teaching the crowd was not what the crowd was doing. I suspect he tried to disseminate his newer stuff; people just couldn't let go of their "known" material well enough to embrace and learn the "new" material.

If you view Infinite Insights and the Encyclopedia as starts meant to prompt conversation, and not a gospel meant to define or dispel it, ... Reference the perspective of a different starting point, and you end up with a different kenpo. Same material, same defs and moves, but nevertheless quite different. Mr. Parker was excellent at playing with different starting points in his mind, and exploring what new ends these alternate paths might lead to. There were a few guys around when he would go on these explorations, some taking notes furiously, some not. Some of those musings -- and the techniques, concepts, and implications stemming from them -- are in the intellectual possession of the guys who were there. Most of Mr. Parkers top-tier students, seniors, and cherished friends were simply not present during these musings, and as such did not have access to the stuff they produced. Not an issue of super-secrecy; just proxemics and timing.

D.

PS -- Please understand that I make no claim or insinuation that I am a senior student, or anything even remotely close. I am one of those hobbyists that's been around for awhile (Mr. Parker's nickname for me was "wallpapuh" because I had hung around with a low profile for so long, no one noticed me anymore), and am among the couple thousand still active (in a sea of a couple million) that has been in kenpo long enough to say "I remember when...". I've watched a lot of changes happen over time, and seen the "take" on kenpo from several oldsters presenting their kenpo. I respect them all (well, most of them...), but they do not all specialize in providing the same information for the same purposes, under the influence of the same motivations.

[rmcrobertson]

I don't WANT to pass one of his yellow belt tests, silly comments like that are one part of what plagues contemporary kenpo, and yours is a grossly-inadequate description of kenpo's actual history--as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.

[Mark Weiser]

Now just responding to this thread may offend someone lol! But I think I would like to mention something here. Are we not all, those whom practice Kenpo and live Kenpo daily, in the same family?

Is it not the point, I am sure there are myraids of opinions, to advance in the Art as it benefits the practioneer? Makin Kenpo work for you?

Kenpo I belive was to be a Art that should be progressive in nature. Not to say "My Kenpo is better and more pure than your Kenpo"

[GAB]

Hi,
I was at a Shorin Ryu school the other night and watching the advanced class work. 80% were Black belts of various rank.

Pretty impressive, watching them move as a unit in a dance of various katas.

The owner was telling me how old these katas were and how some have been tweeked to the western world by Tracy and Parker. (not that it is a bad thing ) It was just a spontanious statement.

I thought that was interesting since I have heard and seen the same thoughts numerous times in discussion, on boards and in person, by the older more traditional martial arts about the Katas from China, Japan and Okinawa...

He was not putting it down, just explaining where they got there information, to concieve and implement their different styles and configurations on the old stuff that has been around for centuries.

I kind of like the Kabaron Guro's thought's about Escrima and Arnis, 'It's all chicken' just served differently...I like that thought, it help's one's own digestion of the whole package(meal).

The Sensei was very proud of his traditional way of Martial Arts.

Regards, Gary

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I don't WANT to pass one of his yellow belt tests, silly comments like that are one part of what plagues contemporary kenpo, and yours is a grossly-inadequate description of kenpo's actual history--as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.
As usual, Robert, you have managed to pass critical judgement on the comments of others, without making your own contributions towards responding to the inquiry at hand. Does our proud resident deconstructionist have any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

I make no blanket judgements in my reply and opinions; if that is the predominant impression, ohwell..whaddyagonnado. I do attempt to offer a simplified response to a complex question that lacks verbally economic answers, presenting personal experiences with people I've met or known as example: I, to date, do not recall having met you, or knowing you. Hence, YOUR worldview and experiences, related through our intimate communication about these matters, did NOT find it's way into my reply. (imagine that) I think a safe genralization is that all people are somewhere on a continuum of "more informed" to "less informed" about pretty much anything. That is not a judgement about good or bad; people just are where they are. As the state of information changes, so does ones place on that continuum. I suspect I know far more about computers than an indigenous cattle farmer in deep Africa, but far less than pretty much any local tech.

I differ from your perspective rearding silly comments plaguing kenpo, and regard some of your offerings on these threads as belonging to the tripe plaguing contemporary kenpo. Other pollutants include the ethnocentric-like arrogance of members of various "camps" in kenpo. (happy to provide specifics in more appropriate settings, but here I suspect it would constitute "thread drift" and/or "sniping").

Rather than simply punching holes in the argument of the other guy you happen to disagree with, try this on for novelty: Offer your own answer.

Interested in YOUR response to the spirit of the query of the thread (not the arguable semantics),

Dave.

[rmcrobertson]

And you, Dave, clearly would not be able to pass one of the midterms for composition classes I am giving next week, and I AM teaching composition.

But don't be offended in any way, because I'm simply describing the way things are.

On other matters, well, I find your descriptions of pretty much everything fundamentally flawed, and I'd note that deconstructing the misrepresentation of reality is a fundamental critical task.

For example, this recurrent fantasy that "the masses," were given third-rate knowledge, counterbalanced by the (sometimes unspoken, but always present) fantasy that, "the elite," (among whose ranks the writer always places themselves) Have the Secrets. In the lit crit game, we call that a binary opposition, and recognize that, "coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire."

Ya want your solution? Fine. 1. Read Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." 2. Read something like Said's, "The World, the Text and the Critic," or Foucault's essays on history and genealogy.

But what about fixing kenpo, you say? Well, first, give it up--impossible, and a power trip anyway.

But what about the...the...secrets that "the masses," don't know? Well, you know what? Here's the secret about the secrets: THERE AREN'T ANY.

How's yer work on the forms going? I promise: you really learn them, you really practice hard, you really use your mind, you do this for years, and you will find everything you want to know. But do note that this is a radically different strategy than saying, "I have the power, and you don't, and you must Come Unto Me for the Secrets of the Power."

There are no secrets in kenpo, except the ones we keep from ourselves.

The reasons we think there are Big Secrets have to do, to start with, two issues: a) the way that some folks make secrets to pump themselves up; b) our own attempts to sneak around the corner and avoid practice and long, hard, slow work.

[Kenpodoc]

I have had the privilege to at least at the Seminar level meet and work with the ne guard, the mid guard and the old guard. I 've found them all impresive, full of useful information and worth working with. I also don't think the differences are as big as is frequently implied. Certainly Mr. Parker added checks as the system progressed but so did his students. Mr. Parker changed how he taught Kenpo both over time and from student to student. However the New and Old guard move too much alike for there to have been as much real change as is often implied.

Jeff

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think it's awesome that you teach comp, Robert. Luckily, I passed fresh comp 20 years ago, and don't need to again. (phew!).

As for the implication of the author being in the know so as to create an "us and them", I would invite you to reread my posts. I am not in "the know". I do not believe all kenpo is created equal, taught equally, etc. There are those in the know...I do not include myself among them; I just happen to believe that everybody did not get the same stuff in their goody bags. I do a lot of stuff the old way, the wrong way, and the hard way. Re-learning will be a difficult and challenging task, and I am looking forward to it.

As for the forms...lotsa data; some of it inviting the practitioner to move in ways that are not "BC" (biomechanically correct), compromising harmony of structure, strength and stability. You can swing a golf club for years, get a pretty good game on, and still have room for improving your grip, stance, swing, etc. But you would have to find a golf pro who knew how to take you to the next level. And, despite your protestations, I (peronally) believe there is a next level to aspire to, and that there is information relative to that next level which has not found it's way into the bulk of AK, but that is certainly of AK origin (i.e., the mind of Mr. Parker).

Like I said...not super-secret stuff; just placement on a continuum, based on access to information available, but not always heeded.

And thanks for the references for the reading: I asked you for them on a another thread quite some time ago..was starting to think I might not get an answer.

STILL interested in your take on the differences btw various generations of kenpo practitioners, and the causes behind them. Please, keep in mind: Mr. Tatum's interpretation of kenpo, and it's history (including the presence or non-presence of information) is not the only one. Lotsa guys out there never got invited to the Gathering of Egos, but have been around as long or longer than your mentor. I'm not one of them, so please avoid using this as a binary thingy-ism statement; I am sure each oldster has their own take on history, and that it differs from every other OG's. (Does there exist a possibility for more than one reference point in a field of data?)

Keep deconstructing. I'm attempting to learn as we go. (hence, changing my position on the information continuum relative to these matters).

Regards,

Dave

[GAB]

[QUOTE=
For example, this recurrent fantasy that "the masses," were given third-rate knowledge, counterbalanced by the (sometimes unspoken, but always present) fantasy that, "the elite," (among whose ranks the writer always places themselves) Have the Secrets. In the lit crit game, we call that a binary opposition, and recognize that, "coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire."

Ya want your solution? Fine. 1. Read Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." 2. Read something like Said's, "The World, the Text and the Critic," or Foucault's essays on history and genealogy.

But what about fixing kenpo, you say? Well, first, give it up--impossible, and a power trip anyway. [/QUOTE]

Hi Robert,

I have heard this thought about the masses being taught wrong by more than one school of Martial Arts...

You are so sure of what you are saying, about this topic. I will bet you were not around when the first or second version on Ed Parkers Kenpo came out.

He changed in the middle of the stream more times then others have in their quest for the almighty dollar...The third time he got it right you say???

Others will disagree with you. The problem is you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up...I know you are well worded...

I guess I will get a red mark, Oh well...

Regards, Gary

[rmcrobertson]

gee, GABBY, gee Kenbudo-Kai Kenpokarrghka or whatever, let me respond with the same narcissism with which I was addressed.

1. From what I can see of your writing--what was that name again? Dave? a little work on writing wouldn't hurt none at all. perhaps it would teach generosity in prose. "The Gathering of Egos." Sweet. Be sure to lecture me some more on my proper place in kenpo, won't you?

2. dear gabby hayes, let me just point out that I've no idea what Mr. parker got right when--not did I address this in any fashion.

I repeat: all this jazz is the avoidance of the long slow work of learning, and an attempt not to see the way that consumer culture insists upon the short cut.

You're happy with your teachers, your training? Mazeltov, I am happy with mine. Let me quote an old story about Mr. Parker, here's the punch line: "lengthen your own line," rather than trying to cut theirs.

Gee, it looks to be important to you to cut everybody else down. Why is that?

But then, there's not a chance in hell you'll read the stuff I suggested, is there. (Incidentally, I DID give you some references, as I always do. Did you try them?) Is there a chance in hell you'll take honest advice to heart, and just work on putting in the mat time?

There are no secrets, save for the ones we keep from ourselves.

Oh, and my take on "different generations?" Look up the stuff on genealogy; "different generations," is far too phallologocentric, too father-and-son opriented; see Harold Bloom, "The Anxiety of Influence."

This, too, ain't no big secret. Look it up.

Hey dudes, try this: MY "mentor," and there have actually been several, and the first happened to be a girl, left me more interested in kenpo, and my own practice, and students, than in them. What did yours do?

[GAB]

Hi Robert,

This was kind of a test case, I have been writing on this board since we had our first disa-agreement. You very seldom if ever address what I have to say, Ramble or ???

So you did. Thanks, at least I have not been put into the "do not read classification".

Since I am somewhat retired, I get to the local library quite a bit. I just went to Borders the other day and bought another book by, Mark V. Wiley about Cabales Serrada Escrima. Good stuff.

I am currently also reading a book by...Richard Rudgley, The Lost Civilizations of the Stone Age. He has some very interesting information about the Jomon Civilisation, the oldest pottery known to man and the true beginning of the Japanese people...

Yes, I will follow up your advise, on the various authors you talk about with regularity.

It is interesting to note, the the early civilizations were just as interested in the fertility of man (women and godesses along with a Phallic symbol or three) as we are today.

As far as the elite of Kenpo today. I believe Larry Tatum has that position in the Ed Parker world (according to Clyde).
Since he was anointed at the Gathering of Eagles. I would say that is true, in the Hollywood sense.

In Sparta (Greece) the Mothers would tell their sons, come home on your shield or don't come home at all, Wow! Now that is what motherhood seems to be like in the far right, still...

The Early cultures were really hung up on fertilization they worshiped it, can we ever fathom the thoughts they had regarding this???? Look how much time and energy they gave to the subject. Still do apparantly, just read the posts regarding the topic.

Your Mentor was a women, funny so was General Mac something, any relation?

He was from a long line of men in the Service to their country.

Phallocentrism, I am not sure if the word is politically correct anymore?

President Bush has held his up pretty well though.

I workout in FMA 2 to 3 times a week formally, and at other times for fun..Read voraciously, many books on many subjects, Plus I just started at a Shorin Ryu Dojo last week to see/do some of the old stuff again...History is good....Keeps me humble, LOL...

I have to give the english to you though, I still am not, nor will I ever be there. I think, I thought it was for sissies. I was wrong...Oh well, 8 out of 10 isn't bad..At least thats what my Physic. 101 Professor told me...Or maybe it was my shrink??Getting old I forget.

Regards, Gary

[rmcrobertson]

You know what, Gary? I couldn't care less about people's English, spelling, or any of that stuff on these forums. That's their fantasy, not mine.

What I care about--and what more and more makes me convinced it's silly to even post on these things--are ideas, differences, explanations, information. Instead, there're these endless self-aggrandizing arguments about who's got the biggest whatever.

A little touch of manners wouldn't hurt, either. What exactly is the reason for throwing in remarks about Mr. Tatum's being--your words--"anointed...in the Hollywood sense," or--your words-- "you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up," or Dave's assorted cracks about, "the masses," and, "our proud resident deconstructionist...any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

Hell, guys, assume I'm quite wrong--happens all the time--what exactly are those sorts of cracks supposed to do that's worth doing?

You guys are happy with your studies. Me too. Mazeltov for us all. So can we skip the crappy comments? The constant jockeying for position? The confusion between new discoveries and announcing everybody else's stupidity?

I don't even necessarily disagree with some of the points. But I am heartily sick of the bad manners.

Old vs. new. How tired.

[Mark Weiser]

I am not sure what the personal beef is guys but can we all just get along please. The problem I see is what is going to happen to the American Kenpo as set forth today when the first generation of Black Belts pass from us and it is up to the Second or Third Generation to carry the Flag of Kenpo in the World. Would it matter who is better or who does what now?

I think we should all work together and do our personal best with the resources available to each of us to make KENPO better and stop all the divisions. I am not sure why these conversations occur. I wonder if the Senior Black Belts in Kenpo carry on like this or do they recongize each others contributions to Kenpo and give respect and honor to KENPO in doing so.

Sincerely,
Your fellow KENPOIST Mark E. Weiser

[GAB]

You know what, Gary? I couldn't care less about people's English, spelling, or any of that stuff on these forums. That's their fantasy, not mine.

What I care about--and what more and more makes me convinced it's silly to even post on these things--are ideas, differences, explanations, information. Instead, there're these endless self-aggrandizing arguments about who's got the biggest whatever.

A little touch of manners wouldn't hurt, either. What exactly is the reason for throwing in remarks about Mr. Tatum's being--your words--"anointed...in the Hollywood sense," or--your words-- "you will pull the Professor routine and nothing to back it up," or Dave's assorted cracks about, "the masses," and, "our proud resident deconstructionist...any input to offer directly to the query of the thread, or should I expect you to simply continue finding flaw?

Hell, guys, assume I'm quite wrong--happens all the time--what exactly are those sorts of cracks supposed to do that's worth doing?

You guys are happy with your studies. Me too. Mazeltov for us all. So can we skip the crappy comments? The constant jockeying for position? The confusion between new discoveries and announcing everybody else's stupidity?

I don't even necessarily disagree with some of the points. But I am heartily sick of the bad manners.

Old vs. new. How tired.
Hi Robert,

I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship, nothing wrong with that but it is just that.

I think Ed Parkers stuff now can be considered Traditional, It goes back quite a while in America, Larry being the older style because he made his tapes over 15 years ago, or maybe I am wrong, I don't think so.

Bad manners, I am not trying to be bad mannered just pointing out your bad manners. I think we can get along, I have a lot of respect for Clyde if he thinks its good, that is good enough for me...

The reason I talked about the Professor routine is you are always talking about the tests you give and none of us can pass them, etc..

Robert, I enjoy your threads a lot. Let it go at that. I am not trying to find fault, Old and new, yes that is correct. Or it can be the new, and the older version of the same thing, only without the fluff.

Mark,
Most of the hard talk is from the seniors, regarding other seniors...
Or wannabe seniors, who are or may not be able to do the stuff any longer and want to remember the old days.

I don't think we are out of line, we are just pushing buttons, I am not offended, why should others be?

What have we said to be monitered, or corrected??? I make an observation and bring it to the forefront, what is wrong with that?

Should I say, like I did one time. I am going to say this, please don't be offended, still offended..OK....

This is a discussion about different ideas and thoughts, we are going to differ,
ok, get used to it.

You are sticking up for your Jewish religion, so what, I am not stuffing my Agnostic attitude up your nose...Give it a break...

Regards, Gary

[Mark Weiser]

Hmmm interesting response and all I can say is have at it guys if you two want to debate that is fine. I will step out of it and just watch. Thanks

[GAB]

Mark, I like your input, why take it like that.
I would enjoy some more of your thoughts. Come on you were a fighter in the post about Jewish and Palestinians, be proud of that.

Same thing with old and new thoughts on any subject...I think the best book Ed Parker wrote for me, was the first one he wrote about Kenpo Karate.
Why because it was in my time frame, showed how to fold the Gi make a fist train etc. Good stuff...Next to that is the Encyclopedia, not by him but published in his name by his son... Still all about his stuff though...

I just did not like Karate and Religion taught at the same place, still don't...

I have the utmost respect for the Karate or Kenpo or Chinese arts he blended with it. But everyone in this day and age of information, has to understand he borrowed, it was not new it was new to us in America.

Not to me, I had already been in the Marine Corp and visited those places and and had four hard years of training... We (marines)were on Okinawa since we captured it, been training in the very thing he said he invented.

Kind of a hard thing to listen to when you know better...

My thought on that one.
Regards, Gary %-}

[Mark Weiser]

GAB I checked your profile and we do have some things in common.


You are former LAPD I served with the Sedgwick and Shawnee County Sheriff Depts for a bit.
USMC I too served Active Duty USMC 1979-1983 Oknawa and 29 Palms twice there.

[GAB]

GAB I checked your profile and we do have some things in common.


You are former LAPD I served with the Sedgwick and Shawnee County Sheriff Depts for a bit.
USMC I too served Active Duty USMC 1979-1983 Oknawa and 29 Palms twice there.


Good Mark, thanks for checking me out and just not giving up on me...

We can talk somemore. G

[rmcrobertson]

Hey, Gary, thanks for the gratuitous insult directed at the head of my school! I honestly don't know whether to be more offended by that, or by your lack of understanding, but I do know that I don't care to try and get along with someone who writes, "I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship."

Still, thanks. I find it very helpful, when I have these little discussions, to have somebody take me off the moral hook, when I feel that I've been unfair. What's more, I'm all in favor of martial arts types who have no idea what they're talking about...I figure, the more of those there are, the safer I am.

I won't be responding to you again on this thread, or at all until you apologize. Not that it matters all that much...

[TwistofFat]

what were we talking about?

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Hi Robert,

I was just pointing out that Larry Tatum is a lot of glitter and lights and Las Vegas Showmanship, nothing wrong with that but it is just that.

I think Ed Parkers stuff now can be considered Traditional, It goes back quite a while in America, Larry being the older style because he made his tapes over 15 years ago, or maybe I am wrong, I don't think so.

Regards, Gary
Me thinks you should shut up now Gary, you've no idea what you're talking about.

DarK LorD

[Touch Of Death]

MOD WARNING
Please Keep the discussion polite and respectfull.
Sean Wold

[GAB]

Ok, To Robert and Dark Lord.

I am going to apologize to you both at the same time, I guess I did not convey my feeling correctly...

I will have to consider more closely as to what I say about your school and your Master. I in no way ment it to be demeaning.

I am sorry that it was taken that way...

Regards, Gary

PS: Robert, to you I sincerely say, I am sorry if I offended you or your Master...It matters to me...Regards, Gary

To the Moderator I did not mean to have it go this way... Gary

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Ok, To Robert and Dark Lord.

I am going to apologize to you both at the same time, I guess I did not convey my feeling correctly...

I will have to consider more closely as to what I say about your school and your Master. I in no way ment it to be demeaning.

I am sorry that it was taken that way...

Regards, Gary

PS: Robert, to you I sincerely say, I am sorry if I offended you or your Master...It matters to me...Regards, Gary

To the Moderator I did not mean to have it go this way... Gary
He is not my MASTER. I serve no MASTER under any circumstances, nor does he like to be characterized that way. Really Gary, you should know me better by now.

DarK LorD

[rmcrobertson]

I think you conveyed your meaning very clearly indeed, Gary, and I believe that between this and work I've about filled my quota for the week of gratuitous insult subsequently denied.

All you have to write, dude, is that you don't agree. All you have to say is that you don't particularly care for this aspect or that aspect of what Mr. Tatum does. All you have to do is to advance your own ideas.

Instead, there's this stuff. Sigh.

[Hand Sword]

Sorry to see all the divisions and arguing here. All of the kenpo here is the "birthchild" of Mr. Parker. All of your instructors were "raised" in kenpo by Mr. Parker. It's like a bunch of children arguing over their inheritance. However, back to the question I've raised. From what I've heard and read, EPAK kenpo that now exists was something that created, from the original teachings of kenpo, for commercialism. This is fine, because that is the state of the martial arts today, which is to make money. I was hoping to get through to the old schoolers out here, or to get to them by those of you that can get to them.

What is the real difference (s) between what Mr. Parker did, or what is referred to as Parker Kenpo, and what is now the EPAK system that is taught?

I truly feel bad if I've opened wounds from the splintering of the system that happened after Mr. Parker's passing. Mr. Parker worked tirelessly to "raise" his kenpo child, and sacrificed a lot. Please try to come together, no one's kenpo is better than someone elses, it's all Mr. Parker's Kenpo. Respect to all of you!

[rmcrobertson]

Bad news: I don't do martial arts to make money. Neither do most people I know.

More bad news: "traditional kenpo," like traditional martial arts, were not without the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.

[GAB]

Alright if I have somehow confused this I am just as confused, anyone want to punch in www.ltatum.com (http://www.ltatum.com) and give me your thoughts on this particular topic the way it has degenerated.

If you go to the website you will see where I am coming from.

If I am wrong... Then like I said before I apologize...I am pretty sure about the words I read and see on this site and the information portrayed...

Yes Clyde, I am just going by what I have seen and read, the above site is for all to see and make their own decision...

I am not going to say another thing regarding this topic or the Master depicted on the website...

Sincerely, Gary

[Hand Sword]

Bad news: I don't do martial arts to make money. Neither do most people I know.

More bad news: "traditional kenpo," like traditional martial arts, were not without the pursuit of the Almighty Dollar.
I apologize, I didn't mean people are practicing the martial arts to make money, my target was to the school owners and instructors. I came up from a self defense/ miltary point of view in regard to the arts where a blackbelt truly meant something, that ordinary people respected. People now seem to make light of martial artists, in terms of respecting there fighting ability. Five year olds have blackbelts! Dojos have become day care centers, handing out belts like candy, watering down the teaching, going for quantity over quality. The students I remember, black belt or not, were definitely people you'd want on your side for the real stuff, rather than dealing against them.

As far as this personal arguing, I've had enough of this, I'm trying to get info in a serious manner, from people who were there and know, not conduct a popularity contest, between the kenpo factions. Again, MUCH RESPECT to everyone, could we please focus on the question.

[Touch Of Death]

Alright if I have somehow confused this I am just as confused, anyone want to punch in www.ltatum.com (http://www.ltatum.com) and give me your thoughts on this particular topic the way it has degenerated.

If you go to the website you will see where I am coming from.

If I am wrong... Then like I said before I apologize...I am pretty sure about the words I read and see on this site and the information portrayed...

Yes Clyde, I am just going by what I have seen and read, the above site is for all to see and make their own decision...

I am not going to say another thing regarding this topic or the Master depicted on the website...

Sincerely, GaryOK here's the deal, while Mr. Tatum has a master rank, students don't run around calling him MASTER nor do they consider him their personal master. The fact that other systems use this term more widely may be the cause of some confusion. The ad you refer to is just that, an ad. It said who, what, and why in two words.
Sean

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, it's just THIS old tired issue. Once upon a Time There Were Giants in the Earth, and They Lived Only for the Martial Arts...the Sin Entered Into Our Art, and Lo, Kenpo began to slide into the Pit of Hell....

It's not a serious discussion because the question isn't phrased seriously.

Things just change. That's all. They just change. trust me; there are people in today's kenpo fully capable of going toe to toe with anybody from the days of yore; there were people in the Days of Heroes With Black Belts that I'd look pretty damn good next to.

When you impose this Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire structure, you conceal what's actually going on...unless ya wanna blame capitalism, which I'm more than willing to do.

Oh, by the way...you might at times consider that in the Good Old Days, martial arts were pretty deeply racially segregated, and they pretty much excluded women.

Then too, while I am not a particular big fan of bratty little yuppie larvae on the mat, it strikes me that it is far from the worst thing in the world to have kids learning at least a little something about the martial arts--and far from the worst thing in the world to have martial artists constantly reminded of reality.

[TwistofFat]

I have been in EPAK for just about 12 years so I am no authority on Old/New but wanted to make an observation.

I have had the opportunity to grow up in the east under the Planas/Wedlake tree but learned many of the forms from Mr. Tatum (in person, on tapes and with one of his BB in Cleveland). I have noticed differences in 'movement' based upon west versus east (a gross over-simplification) and have been told I "do forms like the west coast guys" (I usually take that as a compliment unless I foul them up).

Many of my southern Kenpo brethren train as we can in small groups and quarterly seminars in some distant locale. I think Mr. Parker's art may look a bit different embodied in Misters Dye, Tatum, Planas, etc but man it still hurts like stink. The Kenpo we practice may differ slightly but a)we hammer on fundamentals, b)train using realistic environs and c) cross train in other systems as we see fit and 4) go back to a qualified EPAK instructor to make sure I am still doing EPAK and not my own bad version.

The EPAK Kenpo as taught to me now is very different from what I learned 10 years ago - in no small part due to my rank, but also tailored to my stregths and weaknessess. I am certain Mr. Parker taught things to his students that may not be in the manual (I cannot imagine Mr. Parker never again used his Judo!).

Mr. Parker provided a great service to American MA's by provding a framework that could be memorized and studied and then refined in person. As his art grew and his team of instructors grew and taught it became harder to provide the hands on required to move beyond the book. But he taught some solid MA's and provided great reference materials for the masses to learn. I am glad he did or I never would have discovered EPAK 2000 miles away from LA.

For those few who put the years in the system and then really look to learn the rest, we have to rely on Mr. Parkers students who will certainly teach slightly different than their instructor.

Thanks - Glenn.

[Deschain]

I just did not like Karate and Religion taught at the same place, still don't...Who did that?


I have the utmost respect for the Karate or Kenpo or Chinese arts he blended with it. But everyone in this day and age of information, has to understand he borrowed, it was not new it was new to us in America.Ok


Not to me, I had already been in the Marine Corp and visited those places and and had four hard years of training... We (marines)were on Okinawa since we captured it, been training in the very thing he said he invented.Wow, you must be one salty dog. You were in on the capture of Okinawa? EP said he invented Okinawan Karate? Can you please provide a reference? I thought, according to what I have read on Martial Talk, that EP brough the Kenpo he learned from Chow to the mainland and the expounded upon what he had been taught.


Kind of a hard thing to listen to when you know better...

My thought on that one.
Regards, Gary %-}Could not agree with you more, keep preaching!

[Michael Billings]

Heck, I don't even know what you mean by old v. new.

EPAK I assume, since that is the title. So we are starting circa 1954 or so?

Old as in pre-1960
1960-1970 Tracy era material, Chinese Kenpo (NCKKA - LaBounty), etc.
1970-1980 Evolution to 24 Tech manual (the big red book) & Infinite Insights being written
1980-1990 Continued Evolution with new manuals unpublished, Mr. Parker starts repairing relationships within Kenpo and bringing people back under the IKKA umbrella?

Hard to break down by material or organizations. When was it not fragmented?

-Michael

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

...as are all histories that separate people simply into the good and the bad.


On other matters, well, I find your descriptions of pretty much everything fundamentally flawed, and I'd note that deconstructing the misrepresentation of reality is a fundamental critical task.

For example, this recurrent fantasy that "the masses," were given third-rate knowledge, counterbalanced by the (sometimes unspoken, but always present) fantasy that, "the elite," (among whose ranks the writer always places themselves) Have the Secrets. In the lit crit game, we call that a binary opposition, and recognize that, "coherence in contradiction expresses the force of a desire."

Ya want your solution? Fine. 1. Read Derrida, "Structure, Sign and Play in the Discourse of the Human Sciences." 2. Read something like Said's, "The World, the Text and the Critic," or Foucault's essays on history and genealogy.
Spoken like a true elitest, seperating people into those who know about binary opposition, and those who do not. If pots had tongues, I'm sure they would call the kettle black. Bit of an irony: In the very act of accusing others of being misinformed and blatantly wrong, you must, inherently, operate from a position in which you are the correct one, and your correctness is based on information you have, and "they" do not, placing you in the position of the informed elite expressing forces of desire.

My sniping is not necessary, and I tire of people with half the story telling me I'm wrong, because I only have half the story. I love most of your posts, Robert, because there are too few thinking men in the martial arts. But I know what I based my comments on, and I know how I operationally define generalities such as "the masses". Without requesting elaboration or definition for an informed deconstruction, you leapt to critique. Rudely. And you accuse us of having issues.

Deconstructing misinterpretations of reality assumes that your model of the world is better, more real, or more accurate than an others, and as a proponent of subjective reality, I doubt that. I am sure that Derrida, Said, and Foucault are brilliant men with excellent points (I look forward to reading their work when more pressing life issues have subsided). History is full of the works of men who were brilliant, near the mark, but not entirely correct. Until the skies split and hosts of angels harken the arrival of any or all of these gentleman, I will assign them in my own mind to the place I assign all people: just a man. Bright, perhaps. Innovative and ground-shaking, even. But merely proponents of a philosophy or perspective that is correct sometimes, but not always. As are all philosophies and perspectives.


But what about fixing kenpo, you say? Well, first, give it up--impossible, and a power trip anyway.
I don't think of it as arrogant or elitist to commit my time as a hobbyist to improving my golf swing, forehand, or pitch. In the field of biomechanics, there are whole texts and ongoing journal publications dedicated to simple acts which were initially assumed to be under the domain of innate ability. Pitching a baseball; swinging a golf club; diving into a pool, etc. Placed under the microscope of kinesiology and applied biomechanics, these simple tasks are revealed to be quite complex, with specific sequences required for completion with efficiency. Findings from these studies continues to inform the training and conditioning of professional athletes who have only a half-dozen or so motions to worry about in the course of their performance. How much more complex are the kenpo yellow-belt requirements compared to a tennis serve? Are you suggesting that Mr. Parker -- one man with thousands of moves to index -- intuitivley managed to get it ALL down, and relay it ALL perfectly for the generations to come, while other sports have hundreds of athletes and researchers working thousands of hours to refine 1 or 2 moves, desperate to uncover the next important link to improvement?

That's just stubborn and naive; the power trip seems to me to be more invested in a person who dogmatically refuses to explore the possibility of change, and attempts to verbally spank and/or humiliate people who advocate positions and conclusions different than his. If the same methods for improving a single stroke (for years) are applied to a different kenpo move a month, making the necessary changes to account for detected deficiencies, years would go by and we would still not be into the forms.

Simply stepping back into a left neutral bow involves complex open- and closed-chain kinematic events that return proprioceptive information to the brain...with inhibitory and corrective information being looped back at reaaaly fast speeds...that the study of weight shifts, pivots, translation of the moving foot posteriorly combined with the pelvic, spinal, and HAT dynamics would provide hundreds of hours of study. In that study you could video-tape 100 veteran kenpo practitioners from different angles, and detect subtle differences in all of them. From among these differences, and based on what is known (thus far) about the energy of motion in the body parts involved in this simple kenpo activity, a theory could be developed about what the maximally efficient and effective way is to step back into a neutral bow. And I assure you, we are probably all doing it wrong. Is there room for improvement in kenpo? As one of the most complex activities involving the use of the body in sophisticated, multi-layered movements, heck yeah. Will I change it? Not enough to matter, and certainly not enough to say "I have the secrets". But perhaps if I start, generations to follow will adopt the work (not the changes, but the activity of researching the changes), do a better job than I, and someday kenpoists will know the very best way to step back into a neutral bow. All the better if my name is lost in the anonymity of time: I'm sure it would only be used for mockery's sake, anyway.


I have the power, and you don't, and you must Come Unto Me for the Secrets of the Power."
Odd. I do not recall saying this. There are people interested in genuine improvement, based on informed observation, who do not seek fame, glory, and the inevitable worship of masterdom. If someone said "push button A, and you'll be able to pay your bills, on time and without stress for the rest of your life (or even for a couple of months, for that matter), or Press B, and you'll be world-famous (or even locally known) for being the guy who revamped all of kenpo for the world, making it infinitely better and bringing you glory and adoration for all time", I'd press A in a friggin heartbeat...and STILL be interested in investigating improvements in kenpo. In my opinion, contrary to your blanket assertions on this and other threads, modifications that serve us are not folly or sin.


There are no secrets in kenpo, except the ones we keep from ourselves.
In the spirit of keeping with binary opposition statements, "spoken like one who was never told the secrets". (that was humor, Robert, not vindictive sarcasm...for the record).


The reasons we think there are Big Secrets have to do, to start with, two issues: a) the way that some folks make secrets to pump themselves up; b) our own attempts to sneak around the corner and avoid practice and long, hard, slow work.
I make no secrets to pump myself up, and am plainly derrogatory about my own, outtashapeandsuckingwind lack of skill and information. As I've said before: I don't know much, but I'm very opinionated with what I do know. Much of the source information that has fed my conclusions has little to do with what I know or don't know, and is based on information gleaned from others... people wih different information than you or I have access to. More experienced others than you or I (verecundium?); some with something to gain, most without. As for your less-than-hidden innuendo regarding looking for secrets to avoid time on the mat, that dog don't hunt, bubbelah. While others were having healthy childhood experiences and engaging in happy adolescent activities like football, homework & dating, I was a karate geek, practicing my arse off day and night. Only had "a few" moves, and milked them day in and day out with a thirst for more, fascinated by what was possible with the human body (by the way), and not with being able to kick other peoples butts in an expression my phallogigantism. Feuled by my own pathology, sure. But not by seeking fame. Sorry dude.

And FYI: Not as an insult to you, Clyde, or anyone...Mr. Tatum does have a reputation among some members of the martial arts and kenpo community as being deeply motivated by the potential for financial gains, as well as for being an egotist. As a testament to his skill, there are few people willing to tell him this to his face, so it is entirely possible he is unaware of this perception. There is also a perception that his students attempt to use intimidation and rancor as a means of preventing people with opposing views from participating in activities such as web chats. Again, not an attempt to anger or insult, so if this comes as news to you and offends, I do apologize for the offending aspect of it, as none is intended.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- Still interested in your perspective the differences and similarities of "old" vs. "new" kenpo; the advantages and disadvantages of of each; and what motivations may have caused the selective dissemination of information, if any such thing occurred. This has been a personal fascination of mine through time, and I would enjoy learning the perspectives of one so well-entrenched in kenpo, and firm in their convictions.

[rmcrobertson]

I think you conveyed your meaning very clearly indeed, Dave, and I believe that between this and work I've about filled my quota for the week of gratuitous insult subsequently denied.

All you have to write, dude, is that you don't agree. All you have to say is that you don't particularly care for this aspect or that aspect of what Mr. Tatum does. All you have to do is to advance your own ideas.

Instead, there's this stuff. Sigh.

[Mark Weiser]

I recently received this email from a First Generation BB and I would like to share this with all us Kenpoist on MT. I found this persons honestly and insight refreshing. I hope this does not offended anyone but I thought it was important.

"Since the passing of Mr. Parker, our Kenpo family has basically been torn apart, for greed, and fame, I am not a person you looks for a $$ in every aspect of my life, nor am I concerned with fame, i started martial arts for one reason, to learn what it means to be a humble and honest person to better myself and to make better decisions in my life, as i grew up, things in my life changed, the one constant was martial arts, Ed told me once that through out life, challenges will test your sincerity and your faith, but always remember that there are people out there that do not have the fundamental belief in something like Martial arts to keep their lives moving in forward direction, so regardless of my problems or pains i may suffer, to be focused on a point ahead of me, and to fight thru whatever problems I may be having at that time, once I move past it, it will always become a learning experience that I can benefit from. Most 1st gens out there have forgotten the main reason why they began, to excel to better themselves, to teach others regardless of financial gain. I am not the best I am not the greatest, but what I am is dedicated to a goal, to keep the flame burning, to better myself and my students. to become better persons and the best martial artist they can be."

Very truthful and honest about the current state of Kenpo. I wonder if someday we can all benefit from this persons wisdom.

[Hand Sword]

I recently received this email from a First Generation BB and I would like to share this with all us Kenpoist on MT. I found this persons honestly and insight refreshing. I hope this does not offended anyone but I thought it was important.

"Since the passing of Mr. Parker, our Kenpo family has basically been torn apart, for greed, and fame, I am not a person you looks for a $$ in every aspect of my life, nor am I concerned with fame, i started martial arts for one reason, to learn what it means to be a humble and honest person to better myself and to make better decisions in my life, as i grew up, things in my life changed, the one constant was martial arts, Ed told me once that through out life, challenges will test your sincerity and your faith, but always remember that there are people out there that do not have the fundamental belief in something like Martial arts to keep their lives moving in forward direction, so regardless of my problems or pains i may suffer, to be focused on a point ahead of me, and to fight thru whatever problems I may be having at that time, once I move past it, it will always become a learning experience that I can benefit from. Most 1st gens out there have forgotten the main reason why they began, to excel to better themselves, to teach others regardless of financial gain. I am not the best I am not the greatest, but what I am is dedicated to a goal, to keep the flame burning, to better myself and my students. to become better persons and the best martial artist they can be."

Very truthful and honest about the current state of Kenpo. I wonder if someday we can all benefit from this persons wisdom.
I agree completely! As I said in a previous post, I wish all kenpo/kempoists could come together, and exchange ideas. Especially, to be able to truly conversate with the old schoolers, getting their experiences with GM Parker, and new innovations they have added, before all of the old masters pass away.

[Mark Weiser]

Honestly I wonder if Kenpo can actually come under one banner again due to the damage if I may use that term between different associations and the passing of those passions to the 2nd or even 3rd generation of BB's. Since many of us are 2nd or 3rd Generation BB's we have to rely on the Senior BB's for guideance and insight on how Kenpo must move forward. How we (that is each of us) can be the Martial Artist that SGM Parker would have wanted us to be.

We do well to honor his Art of Kenpo if we all respect each other and learn from each other knowing that each of us can and are able to contribute to Kenpo in some way making Kenpo better as well as making each of us better Kenpoist aka Human Beings.

Maybe I am a dreamer but I do belive after gleaning from his books, talking by phone or via computers, and studies from other BB in Kenpo. We would all like to be respected despite our differences. We are all Kenpoist and we need to respect each other therefore HONORING SGM Parker's memory.

[Hand Sword]

Honestly I wonder if Kenpo can actually come under one banner again due to the damage if I may use that term between different associations and the passing of those passions to the 2nd or even 3rd generation of BB's. Since many of us are 2nd or 3rd Generation BB's we have to rely on the Senior BB's for guideance and insight on how Kenpo must move forward. How we (that is each of us) can be the Martial Artist that SGM Parker would have wanted us to be.

We do well to honor his Art of Kenpo if we all respect each other and learn from each other knowing that each of us can and are able to contribute to Kenpo in some way making Kenpo better as well as making each of us better Kenpoist aka Human Beings.

Maybe I am a dreamer but I do belive after gleaning from his books, talking by phone or via computers, and studies from other BB in Kenpo. We would all like to be respected despite our differences. We are all Kenpoist and we need to respect each other therefore HONORING SGM Parker's memory.
I agree with you completely, it's kind of ironic that the biggest obsticles to the reunion that must be overcome is supposedly what M.A.'s (of all styles) stress to do in their training: Respect for others(this one especially in our family, since, as I said earlier, Mr. Parker was the "Father" of all of our instructors instructors), and their abilities, and for being a positive force in their enviroment.

[Kenpodoc]

I wasn't there but it doesn't appear that Kenpo was ever one big happy family even under Mr. Parker's guidance. Most "Families" are full of internal discord and in my experience the families who claim no conflict are often the sickest. Martial artists are by nature opinionated, aggressive and unlikely to agree on everything. Personally, I take advantage of the discord by meeting different people and seeing different ways of interpreting the art. This discord is actually part of Kenpo's strength.

Jeff

[Michael Billings]

Originally Posted by Mark Weiser

Honestly I wonder if Kenpo can actually come under one banner again due to the damage if I may use that term between different associations and the passing of those passions to the 2nd or even 3rd generation of BB's. ... and I would ask if we actually NEED to come under one banner? I do not think it will ever be possible, as Black Belts have been "leaving" or been "booted" out of the IKKA since it's inception, and forming their own organizations ... and that was in Mr. Parker's lifetime. Some were sanctioned by him, but most were not. Did that mean they did "bad" Kenpo? Nah, it is just where Kenpo was when they left Mr. Parker, then they evolved or redacted material, and added other material as their organizations grew.

-Michael

[Seig]

I do not think we need to come under one banner, but it would certainly be nice if an organization, such as the AKSC, could set a standard for quality that all could agree on. I am not talking about a standardized across the board curriculuum. I do not believe that possible.
What I do believe is possible is that people that are members of this board, and of senior rank, could sit on a panel and say, "Yes, that is quality Kenpo" or "That is absolute junk."
Thanks to board such as Martial Talk, the barriers that have existed for so many years are slowly comming down encouraging a free flowing exchange of information. With this exchange of information is the opportunity for respect and friendship to foster where before it could or would not.

[Hand Sword]

Heck, I don't even know what you mean by old v. new.

EPAK I assume, since that is the title. So we are starting circa 1954 or so?

Old as in pre-1960
1960-1970 Tracy era material, Chinese Kenpo (NCKKA - LaBounty), etc.
1970-1980 Evolution to 24 Tech manual (the big red book) & Infinite Insights being written
1980-1990 Continued Evolution with new manuals unpublished, Mr. Parker starts repairing relationships within Kenpo and bringing people back under the IKKA umbrella?

Hard to break down by material or organizations. When was it not fragmented?

-Michael
If I was vague on the question, I apologize. I was trying to get info, cause I know a lot of you a very well versed on the subject. I was constantly hearing from EPAK practitioners, and reading a few things that referred to the kenpo of today as being a commercializes, water down version, compared to the kenpo that was taught by Mr. Parker in the beginning. Or, to better put it, it's not the kenpo that Mr. Parker would use or practice for his own skills. So, I just wanted to find out, if this was true, and if so, what were the differences between the two versions? (sorry about the confusion, I work the graveyard shift, and sometimes things don't come out the way I was thinking).

[Doc]

... However the New and Old guard move too much alike ....
Jeff

... that YOU have seen an interacted with. I accept your limitations on yourself, but not me. Simply put, I was taught differently from some others.

Dr. Dave did indeed come to see me and I think I made a modest impression on him of the significant differences that may be attained of the "same old material." How is that Possible? Like he said, "you gotta feel it." Trust me Dr. Dave is modest but he is no slouch himself, and is well educated. That's why we got along so well. Although he didn't understand how I achieved the results, (while he rattled off muscle groups and bone structure I didn't even remember) he had the opportunity to experience it and "feel" its undeniable reality. At first it can be somewhat perplexing. like an optical illusion physically manifesting itself. "This can't be possible," some say, "but nevertheless I feel it and it works." Dr. Dave really knows his stuff, and it was a pleasure to share with him.

I agree there are no secrets. There is only want we know, and that big black empty hole that we don't know. The secret is to first admit it and begin filling the hole from those that know more than we do. Of course finding them is another story, even if we do admit it.

Ed Parker said, "We can not become great until we come to the relaization that what we know is very little." I'm working on it Boss.

[Kenpodoc]

Doc,

I had no intention of putting limitations on you. I have not met you but would surely like to some time. My comment was merely meant to imply that the later practitioners were not better than the earlier students because of some new secret knowlege. There appears to be a core of Mr. Parker in all of his students but they have each applied that knowlege differently. I believe that those differences are part of the Strength of his system. I never met Mr. Parker so the closest I can get is to meet different students of his, compare movement and style and look for the center. Obviously this is not entirely accurate. This is just the closest I can get. I agree that feeling is believing and sure would like to experience at least a part of your Kenpo.

Jeff

[Doc]

Doc,

I had no intention of putting limitations on you. I have not met you but would surely like to some time. My comment was merely meant to imply that the later practitioners were not better than the earlier students because of some new secret knowlege. There appears to be a core of Mr. Parker in all of his students but they have each applied that knowlege differently. I believe that those differences are part of the Strength of his system. I never met Mr. Parker so the closest I can get is to meet different students of his, compare movement and style and look for the center. Obviously this is not entirely accurate. This is just the closest I can get. I agree that feeling is believing and sure would like to experience at least a part of your Kenpo.

Jeff

Fair enough sir, I look forward to someone of your stature and your own impressions.

[The Kai]

I was at a Shorin Ryu school the other night and watching the advanced class work. 80% were Black belts of various rank.
Pretty impressive, watching them move as a unit in a dance of various katas.
The owner was telling me how old these katas were and how some have been tweeked to the western world by Tracy and Parker. (not that it is a bad thing ) It was just a spontanious statementI wonder why would Ed parker or the Tracy's touch a Kata in the Shorin -Ryu Karate system??


You are so sure of what you are saying, about this topic. I will bet you were not around when the first or second version on Ed Parkers Kenpo came out.
He changed in the middle of the stream more times then others have in their quest for the almighty dollar...The third time he got it right you say???GAB First,or my own sake could you please tell me where and when you studied EPAK?
2.) What changes and what effect did it have on the system, Parker made it more flowing? I can see where that is a hugh finacial windfall


I have the utmost respect for the Karate or Kenpo or Chinese arts he blended with it. But everyone in this day and age of information, has to understand he borrowed, it was not new it was new to us in America.Borrowed? in what sense? Did Parker promise to return the Martial art he learned? Fact is EPAK is a unique system








already been in the Marine Corp and visited those places and and had four hard years of training... We (marines)were on Okinawa since we captured it, been training in the very thing he said he invented.
Again Kenpo is not Karate! I don't think Parker ever claimed to have invented kenpo. he did claim to have infused his own concepts within the art. IMHO some of the concepts Parker evovled were years ahead of their time
FWIW
Todd

[Goldendragon7]

Ed Parker said, "We can not become great until we come to the relaization that what we know is very little." I'm working on it Boss.

Well, close {wording a little off but same idea:ultracool}...... but I Agree, however, if he were here today........ He would probably change it to ......

"One becomes HUMBLE he comes to the relaization that what he knows is very little." [5th Orange Belt saying]

:asian:

[Doc]

Well, close {wording a little off but same idea:ultracool}...... but I Agree, however, if he were here today........ He would probably change it to ......

"One becomes HUMBLE he comes to the relaization that what he knows is very little." [5th Orange Belt saying]

:asian:
Listen Buddy Boy, I was quoting the man talking to me, not what he wrote in a book. So there smarty pants.

[Goldendragon7]

Listen Buddy Boy, I was quoting the man talking to me, not what he wrote in a book. So there smarty pants.

hee hee...... Now put that tongue back in your mouth!

:ultracool