I know Filipino stickfighting (and the Venezuelan stick fighting system, Garrote Larense) has been heavily influenced by Spanish fencing, but does anyone know exactly what fencing techniques and concepts have been adopted into the Filipino stickfighting systems?

I only fenced for about 18 months, and competed for about 9 of those, so dont take any of this as gospel, but....

As i understand it, Spanish fencing is heavily enamoured of the discipline of sabre - which focusses on upper body attacks (you can't score below the waist), and slashing attacks, which do not occur in foil or epee - that is , in sabre you can score with a hit from any part of the first 1/3rd of the blade, while with foil and epee you can only score with the point. As such, sabre has more circular attacks and defences than the primarily linear foil and epee disciplines.

How this relates to FMA i cannot say, as i've never studied any, although i'd very much like to.

I didnt really study sabre much and this is stretching my memery somewhat, so please, don't take my word for it.

Cheers

Baoquan.

I believe one of the main things which FMA got from Fencing was the use of long and short sword or sword and dagger (Espada y daga). Perhaps some of the footwork as well, but I think there is such a variety in FMA that it would be hard to trace where different techniques would come from in general. For example, one system may have more influence than others, or a master long ago may have learned some fencing from a Spanish person and incorporated into his system while another didn't.

Bryan

I believe the #5 block in Modern Arnis (the inverted stick parry; where the stick points downward, and parries) was a fencing rip-off.

:)

I believe the #5 block in Modern Arnis (the inverted stick parry; where the stick points downward, and parries) was a fencing rip-off.

I think bladed weapons were used by Filipinos before their contact with the Spanish, so who's to say whether they developed it after their contact?

Bryan

Right, so I'm not positive about that one. That was just something that I had heard.

Well I would like to start with the Foil and Epee
techniques of the thrusts.

Think number(s) 6/10 and 7/11 for these thrusts.

These thrusts in my opinion could be say to
have the influence.

As for the number 5 Black (AKA Vertical Block)
if you follow this up with an immediate back
hand strike to the opponents wrist, this allows
for the disarm. i.e. cutting the opponents
forearm.

As for disarms, look at the number 4 disarm,
where you loop the point of your stick / blade
around the opponents wrist and then force the
disarm.

Once again I think this could be a fencing
influence.

Now if one was to investigate the sabre for the
cutting techniques versus the thrusting
techniques. I would like to investigate the
umbrella and slanting and the horizontal blocks.
These Blocks are down with the cane / blade
flowing or cutting and if applied as in offense
offense then the 'block; becomes an attack to
the opponents forearm.

It is late, I will post some more thoughts later.

Rich

I trained with some SCA fighters and many
were interested in my Florentine fighting style.
Doublo Baston or Espada y Daga AKA Two sticks
or Sword/stick and dagger.

One of these guys taught fencing, and he was
mildly surprised with the commonality of some
of the thrusts and disarms between Modern Arnis
and Fencing.

So, my thoughts are not based upon my training
in fencing, but only in crossing blades with
fencers and having both of us give and take
to demonstrate the respective arts.

Well, I just thought I would add some more
thoughts.

Have a nice time training

Rich
:cool:

to answer this best you would have to look at the german styles of fencing. You are like what the? right now but yeah. The history of the se asian islands goes to the Dutch then the spanish. The spanish primarily thrust when fencing but the greman/ dutch fencing have the same angles of attack as modern arnis. If you are interested in more information email me you home address.
It is good to hear you are kicking ass in full swing.

Can someone summarize for me the main schools of fencing (Italian, Spanish, German) and roughly when they were practiced as such? A web link will of course suffice!

Originally posted by arnisador

Can someone summarize for me the main schools of fencing (Italian, Spanish, German) and roughly when they were practiced as such? A web link will of course suffice!

Yes and would it be possible to also include
the weapon of choice for each school?

Thank you

Rich

Originally posted by arnisador

Can someone summarize for me the main schools of fencing (Italian, Spanish, German) and roughly when they were practiced as such? A web link will of course suffice!

I'll try to roughly summarize them and will follow up with more info if u need. I used to be a doce pares student, at the time i was conducting a research on the influence of european sword fighting systems on the filipino styles myself. Some will define espada y daga the "true" italian martial arts. In the filipines there is infact a sub-system called "l'italiana". It was one of the first fencing schools in europe eventually the france the spanish hungarians and germans developed their own on these basis.

in germany one of the most acaptivating sytles was schlagerplay, the schlager is a basket-hilt broadsword used exclusively from the german and austrian fighting fraternities at the beginning of the 19th century all the way up the the 21st. (a pretty bad ass style)

in italy you have mainly the saviolo and giacomo di grassi schools plus the southern and northern fencing traditions with various forms of sword. I'll get a little more into the spanish, french and hugarian styles on my next post and i'll try to include some more detailed infos on the polish sabre traditions.

:)

Originally posted by KickingDago

Some will define espada y daga the "true" italian martial arts. In the filipines there is infact a sub-system called "l'italiana".

Fascinating! Yes, please do continue!

Originally posted by arnisador



Fascinating! Yes, please do continue!

http://ejmas.com/jwma/

perhaps this link is a good starting point, it's very informative on the subject of western fighting styles however some of the artcles written for this site are made by dudes who also practice filipino martial arts and often analize the affinity in between western and filipino styles.

Speaking of fencing and escrima, I note that escrime (http://www.fie.ch/) is the French term for fencing.

On the Modern Arnis forum is a discussion (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2899) of the Modern Arnis number five strike including it's similarity to a fenciner's thrust and how that technique works for a stick as opposed to a blade.

Originally posted by arnisador

Speaking of fencing and escrima, I note that escrime (http://www.fie.ch/) is the French term for fencing.

Now that's wild! Hmm, has there ever been a French takeover
of the Phillipines?

Must just be a coincidence! Sort of like garrote larense, the Venezuelan stick-fighting style that's very fencing-like, or the similar Canary Islands system. The French has []la canne[/i], sword-like stick-fighting in savate. See:

http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=551

for more on all of these.

Of course Jodo is a Japanese sword-influenced stick art, and many FMA systems use the stick in a very sword-like manner.

The Spansih word for fencing is el cercar according to www.altavista.com, but that could be the corral sense rather than the fighting sense--I don't know. The word 'skirmish' is given as escaramuza by AltaVista and this is said to be the origin of the term escrima; '(battle) harness' becomes arnés, i.e. the FMA arnis.

The French did rule over Indochina and gave the Vietnamese their alphabet, of course, and there are always claims and counterclaims about the influence of Muay Thai on Savate and boxing or vice versa.

See also this article (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=81675#post81675) and the following posts.

See this link to answer questions about styles and schools of fencing.

http://www.martinez-destreza.com/fenweap.htm

Thanks
Jeremy Bays

Thread on Espada Y Daga Drills (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6819).

Filipino sword and dagger seems very different to me from European sword and dagger systems. Of course, a bolo and a rapier are very different swords!

Speaking of fencing and escrima, I note that escrime is the French term for fencing.


Now that's wild! Hmm, has there ever been a French takeover
of the Phillipines?


NO, escrima or eskrima in bisaya is a spanish word so the similarities are in the spanish word escrima and the french escrime
there is notthing to do with the french language and a French takeover because there was no such takeover........

also we have a great deal to thank our spanish forefathers, the spanish influnced us a great deal culturally, but in the martial arts little is known of how deep this influence took place we have kept many spanish terms in our martial arts.

Also yes pinuti y daga (espada y daga) is very different from espada y daga of the spanish school, but i guess we will never truly know because the spanish school is no more more reseach needs to be conducted on the spanish school....

I've heard a few discussions on this subject. But I would like to point out that the people who invaded and occupied the philippines would be soldiers. Soldiers did not fight like nobles duelled. So the fencing reproduced in manuals of the time and passed down into modern fencing would not be like that of the Spanish soldiers of the time. Our lack of knowledge about soldeiry training and combat at the time severly limits how much comparison we can do,

But I would like to point out that the people who invaded and occupied the philippines would be soldiers. Soldiers did not fight like nobles duelled.

not entirely true you have based this statement with little fact.

there were more civilians migrate and settled in the philippines then soldiers, people from spain, which most of todays filipino's can trace there ancestry to, portugal, mexico and south america as well as other country's such as france and of course later on from the U.S.
All of these nations have helped mould the philippines and the filipino people to what we are today....


ALSO in the times of the Spanish rule and after there where very wealthy Land owners or the DON's who where considered Nobles these nobles would have lived in the lap of luxury and would have mimicked life in spain. infact Jose Rizal practiced EUROPEAN FENCING as what most of the higher class in europe at the time did also...
the bottom line is we are not sure the spanish school was know as the mistical school eskrima also is mystical and belief in the supernatural exist till this day all intertwined in our national religion the roman catholic church....maybe this was influenced by the spanish.....
Al so if you dont look at the "1-12 eskrima systems" those with a sylabus......you can see slight similarities with the principles of the old manuals, look at illustrisimo, MMOH, BEAE, and other systems in the philippines without a sylabus and you can see some similarities..........


terry

I in no way meant to imply that the Spanish did not have an impact on life in the Phillipines. I meant that I did not think that the martial culture of nobles would be closely linked to the FMAs. Far more likely the martial knowledge of soldiers. But I am definately not an expert of Phillipino cultre, so you could correct me on that.
But soldiers would not fight in the same way. In the 16th century, when the spanish came to the Phillipines, the longsword and rapier were both taught by fencing masters in Europe. The longsword being the three foot long pience of steel wielded in two hands and often used for strong slashes. Compared to the rapier, which was usually much more concerned with the thrust, which was considered more deadly. The tactics used to employ these weapons is of course quite different. In later centuries, we see fencing masters concentraing more on the duelling weapons of the rapier and then smallsword. Neither of these weapons was used in battle, being near useless against armor. I'm drawing all of this from fencing manuals of the time, many of which can be seen at http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm
And the problem I see once again is there isn't a lot of documentation as to how the Spanish soldiers fought in these times. We can assume they used the same firearms, polearms, and sabers that other Europeans used, but I actually don't know that.
It's not that there aren't similarities between spanish duelling and FMAs, but I think it would be more because of the similarities any blade art shares with others. It's just sound martial principles.

I'm drawing all of this from fencing manuals of the time, many of which can be seen at http://www.aemma.org/library_top.htm

also william wilsons page and theHaca now thearma

thehaca.com

there are plenty of manuals..
yes i have had an interest in these manuals since 1999

"I meant that I did not think that the martial culture of nobles would be closely linked to the FMAs. Far more likely the martial knowledge of soldiers. But I am definately not an expert of Phillipino cultre, so you could correct me on that."

i personally think that the soldiers where influenced by the nobles when it came to the sword.

but i also know that many of the natives at the time in the Philippines thought of the way the soldiers fought with their weapons (apart from musket) as beign inferior to their way...

we should respect eskrima as beign a native art of the philippines and maybe it was influenced from the native arts and also our spanish forefathers and other immigrants from other countrys who have immigrated to the P.I during the spanish period.....it will always be speculations of its true origings because the way it is today it is neither entirely native nor entirely spanish it was almost 100% developed during the spanish period..

we should respect eskrima as beign a native art of the philippines and maybe it was influenced from the native arts and also our spanish forefathers and other immigrants from other countrys who have immigrated to the P.I during the spanish period

And at that, I can say I completely agree.

An article in the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International discusses the Italian system of Nova Scrimia, which appears to be a fencing system but they are shown practicing with sticks as well as with rapiers. They mention that, in reconstructing the historical system, they made use of the fact that the Spanish version of it had been partially preserved in Southeast Asia.

Nova Scrimia

they research many of the old stick fighting manuals of europe from the early 20th century and also the mid to late 19th century's

Yes, they talked a lot about researching from old manuals. They now have videos out I gather--the magazine only showcases the people who have new videos out.

id like to see it

theres a web site called

savateaustralia.com

this has old manuals on the walking stick but from what i have been told there are hundreds of old stick fighting manuals

savateaustralia also have a video i have it its ok
a lot of the strikes they use are abanico strikes

There are indeed hundreds of stickfighting styles. There is a Yahoo! mailing group called "Eurostick" or something like that which is filled with people who study and research such styles. I can't find the link to that specific one, but here are some links to information on some specific ones
http://home.dbio.uevora.pt/~oliveira/Jogo_Pau/J_Pau.htm
a portugese stick fighting
http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Coetzee_0902.htm
zulu stick fighting
http://ahfaa.org/irishgangs.htm
irish stick fighting
http://www.the-exiles.org/manual/lang/lang.htm
By an English officer who lived in India
I'm trying to find my other source, but in Europe sword-like sticks called "wasters" were used in training for hundreds of years.

thamks for that i already have those sources,
i was wondering if you have found any other in particular the italian stick fighting method which NOVA use as their base?

I have heard it suggested that before the spanish, Filipino systems did not include the numbered striking systems. I have no idea if this is correct, but I've heard it.

Some of the striking and blocking styles are fairly similar between some filipino and sabre fencing systems.

On the other hand, both arts utilize some "self-evident" truths about weapons usage, like an emphasis on striking with the farthest portion of the weapon. It would seem silly to call this something that was shared, rather than something that was simultaneously developed because of its effectiveness.

This kind of thing makes it hard to say what things have transferred from one art to another and what things are indigenous to each style.

~TT

interesting discussion!

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Interesting thread

In volume 3 #2 1994, in the Journal of Asian Martial Arts there is an article by Mark Wiley entitled "The Evolution & Etymology of a Filipino Fencing Form"

He covers several things that have been discussed here.

Mark

2 cents ....

Very interesting.

I did some SCA fencing for a while and found that the use of the live hand to parry is very similar.

this is NOT true with classical or college fencing (where they keep the off hand behind them) it is in fact illegal under those rules to use the off hand.

I'm not saying the FM Arts got this from fencing only that my Modern Arnis training translated very well to this type of combat

Originally posted by arnisador
An article in the current (May 2003) issue of Budo International discusses the Italian system of Nova Scrimia, which appears to be a fencing system but they are shown practicing with sticks as well as with rapiers. They mention that, in reconstructing the historical system, they made use of the fact that the Spanish version of it had been partially preserved in Southeast Asia.

Would like to read more details on this. The Spanish wrote of Filipinos possessing sticks and weaponry well before they held any of the northern portions of the islands.

I'd also like to find out if the Italian weaponwork also influenced the Spaniards - during the 1500's when they battled one another.

During this time of course, the European methods of war involved cavalry, artillery, firearms and the pike /lance formations. Minimal swordplay were drilled by infantry, and was reserved for those on horseback (cavalry).

Most likely the soldiers who fought in the Philippine islands were trained as infantry men with use of the firearm and pike. They did not use much cavalry on the islands. Records show that Spanish requests for weapons were predominantly for their firearms.

As per numbering systems. The Filipinos had a numbering system well before the Spaniards arrived. It would not be inconceivable for a bartering, trade culture like the Philippines to use numbering in their fighting methods. As far as similarities with any of the numbering - taking into account the vital areas of the body and the natural flow of combat - there's bound to be cross over. I'd surmise that the Spanish practice of historical omission, and the Filipino's penchant for blending their culture with outside influences- it's probably a bit of both rather than a total lack of any numbering system.

--Rafael--
---------
---------
------

Originally posted by arnisador
I know Filipino stickfighting (and the Venezuelan stick fighting system, Garrote Larense) has been heavily influenced by Spanish fencing, but does anyone know exactly what fencing techniques and concepts have been adopted into the Filipino stickfighting systems?

Cinco Teros is very simlar to saber.

Tim

Can't find it...but escrime and escrima probably have the same Latin root. Anybody know it?

Regards,

SCS


"Speaking of fencing and escrima, I note that escrime is the French term for fencing.


Now that's wild! Hmm, has there ever been a French takeover
of the Phillipines?


NO, escrima or eskrima in bisaya is a spanish word so the similarities are in the spanish word escrima and the french escrime
there is notthing to do with the french language and a French takeover because there was no such takeover........"

On a Balitawak International website, Atillo has it in his Balitawak lineage that Bk players were previously in Doce Pares and that the name was out of respect for a French prisoner who taught/trained with one of the Saavredo (sp?) brothers while they were serving sentences together.

I have also heard it mentioned that the general trend is that the southern island arts are more euro influenced and the northern island arts are more influenced by muslim, indiginous and eastern influence. Does anyone know of this theory or see any trends that might give it credence?

Paul Martin

Now that's wild! Hmm, has there ever been a French takeover
of the Phillipines?

They tried in 1844-1845 to capture the Island of Basilan but were defeated....

Originally posted by loki09789
On a Balitawak International website, Atillo has it in his Balitawak lineage that Bk players were previously in Doce Pares and that the name was out of respect for a French prisoner who taught/trained with one of the Saavredo (sp?) brothers while they were serving sentences together.

I have also heard it mentioned that the general trend is that the southern island arts are more euro influenced and the northern island arts are more influenced by muslim, indiginous and eastern influence. Does anyone know of this theory or see any trends that might give it credence?

Paul Martin


Paul M,

I do not know about your statment. I would find it hard to believe that the north was more influenced by Muslims or those that follow the belief of Islam. I thought the southern Islands were the area of the highest population density of the Islam Religion.

Curious to hear if anyone has any data though :)

:asian:

Saavedro (sp?)

Lorenzo "Tatay Ensong" Saavedra
Teodoro "Doring" Saavedra

I have also heard it mentioned that the general trend is that the southern island arts are more euro influenced and the northern island arts are more influenced by muslim, indiginous and eastern influence. Does anyone know of this theory or see any trends that might give it credence?

The Southern Islands have by far the most densily muslim population....
Some muslims migrated to Luzon in the last thirty years to escape the war in the South that's why there are some small communities in Manila, Baguio...

The muslim escrima system I know is very different from the Visayan - Luzon systems...
Footwork has little in common.....
muslims also practice silat and other less known martial arts.

Given that filipino muslims are very secretive regarding their martial arts (even between themselves), I can hardly imagine them influencing the fighting arts of the christian populations.

There were huge christian migrations to Mindanao in the 50's, mostly from Panay and the Visayas.... therefore many systems from those Islands should be found in Mindanao.


Mabuhay ang filipino silat at Arnis.

For those who helped me with my PI influence comment, thanks for the update. I read it on the Escrima DIgest years ago and thought it made sense, but thanks for the details. Also the spelling corrections will come in handy too.

What is the major distinction between muslim practiced arts and other arts in FMA? Is there more 'spirit' or mental instruction because of the connection to the Islamic faith? The little I have seen of Silat/Kun Tao arts seem to be very 'intense'.

Paul Martin

There is a lot of mental instruction in Silat, Kuntao Silat, and Kuntao... Internal training is very important for those arts... it is influenced by islamic faith (suffism) but is also strongly connected to pre-islamic beliefs...
There are few islamic fundamentalists in the Philippines and filipino muslims have their own interpretation of Islam......

I didn't see any spiritual training in muslim escrima or muslim combat judo ..... blades are the tools of training (bolos already used on coco nuts) and sticks are rarely seen....

Actually filipino muslims seem to have different arts for different weapons: the art of the knive, the art of the bolo, how to use of the rope, how to use the spear.... Footwork is very different from all I've seen in christian systems... they have the victory pattern footwork and much more based on different geometric forms and a different way to move....

It is very hard to get informations on their martial arts as they are very secretive even between themselves, peoples won't usually admit they know martial arts even to their close friends (In my case it took five years)....

Hope that helps.

I don't know this art!