Strength or speed

[ppko]

Another thread got to think to start up this thread so which is more vital speed or strength. which one equals more power I will say speed (if done properly)

[8253]

I believe that you really must have both. Really the two compliment each other. A balance of speed and strength must be attained to be effective. One cannot take priority over the other.

[Mark Weiser]

From my study of Ed Parker System of Kenpo. He states in his books that accuracy and doing the technique slowly then you go for Speed.

[Hwoarang_tkd26]

I believe that you really must have both. Really the two compliment each other. A balance of speed and strength must be attained to be effective. One cannot take priority over the other.I agree, but I think that once you get your technique down and perfected, speed is probably what I would say is best (if I had to make a desision between the two.)
I think that if you just have one or the other, your techniques will be inefective.
Thats why I think that it it best to have an even mix of both.

- Hwoarang_tkd26

[BlackCatBonz]

well i personally dont think that either speed or strength mean anything if you are studying martial arts properly......morihei ueshiba in his later years needed neither strength nor speed and he was still a most formidable martial artist.
guru william de thouars has said that speed is >>REMOVED<<, timing is of the essence.
i think most any master of the arts that is up there in years would tell you the same thing.

shawn

[The Kai]

Speed, accuracy, timing and strenght. Speed is probably the biggest factor

Todd

[TigerWoman]

This is like saying, do you you need your leg or your foot never mind that it is attached. Speed without strength, timing, focus won't do the job. Strength without timing, speed, focus won't do the job. TW

[Zepp]

The poll needs an option for both being equal.

I suppose in terms of overall usefulness (not just power) speed is more useful in terms of evading a dangerous situation.

[punisher73]

I remember an acronym I saw/read somewhere (don't know where so I can't give proper credit).

PAWS

Power=Accuracy, Wisdom, and Speed

The wisdom was defined as doing the right technique at the right time (along with distance and timing).

But, I think they are both a close equal. It doesn't matter if you can hit like a Mack truck but are so slow that your opponent always sees it coming and it doesn't matter if you are as fast as lightning and always hit your opponent if it feels like a fly.

[chinto01]

I would say that you should develop form and technique and then add gradually an equal amount of speed and power.

[Eldritch Knight]

You can be the fastest, strongest person in the world, but you won't win if your opponent sees your strikes coming a mile away. Technique is the most important, followed closely by timing. Knowing when and where to hit is far more important than how hard you hit, or how fast. Of course, speed can open the realm of possibility by allowing you to get in more strikes, but this should generally flow from the mastery of technique.

[terryl965]

SPEED AND TIMING ALONG WITH INNER STENGTH WILL WIN OUT THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME BUT NO-ONE CAN WIN THEM ALL. NOW LET BE SERIOUS ABOUT THIS QUESTION, IT ALL DEPENDS ON THE FIGHTER YOUR COMPETITION AND THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT WILL COME FROM THE ENCOUNTER. SOME TIME WALKING AWAY IS THE BEST ANSWER TO YOUR QUESTION BECAUSE THOSE THAT WALK AWAY WILL HAVE ENOUGH SPEED AND INNER STENGTH TO TRAIN ANOTHER DAY. IN TODAY WORLD ARE WE TALKING STREET OR TOURNAMENT. CONFUSING HUH JUST LIKE THE QUESTION. PLEASE PUT FORTH MORE INFO.,SO YOU CAN GET THE RIGHT RESPONSE...GOD BLESS AMERICA :erg:

[Kenpodoc]

I think this question is misguided. What you really need is adequate speed and adequate power (combined with the need to accuratley strike your target.) I've seen (and felt) people go for speed and lose all power. Quickness, mobilty and proper foot work and body mechanics can overwhelm a powerfull opponent, provided they are not to big and too powerful (then run). In the long run one needs a combination of just enough speed combined with just enoug power and adequate accuracy. No matter haw fast your arms are they lose power if they move faster than your core body. Great power in a slow bumbling practioner will be of limited advantage. Good speed and power mean less if you fail to strike effective targets.

I chose Power however since on some reflection I decided that I'd rather fight the young Bruce Lee than Bob Sapp.

Jeff :asian:

[punisher73]

I see alot of posts that talk about speed vs. power. That wasn't the question, the question was is speed vs. STRENGTH more important in adding power.

[DeLamar.J]

Another thread got to think to start up this thread so which is more vital speed or strength. which one equals more power I will say speed (if done properly)
Speed is better, providing the technique is good also. I like the arrow analogy, an arrow is very light and fragile, a bowling ball is very hard and heavy. Drop the bowling ball on your stomach from a decent height. If you breath out and contract properly your ok. Then take the arrow, lighter, weaker, shoot it into somthing at high speed andf there you go, internal damage.
I think that is one good way to explain it.

[Paul B]

I personally don't think it's a clear cut case. You can be fast and weak,or strong and slow. Either way if your lacking precision,you might as well be doing the chicken dance,hoping one of your rapidly flapping wings will incapacitate your attacker.

Power(strength) comes from good,balanced delivery,which in time,will become "faster",but it is a mistake to sacrifice precision for speed or strength. I think I just said the same thing twice.:whip:

That's my 2c's. It's late.

[kenpoworks]

For me, Accuracy comes first, then Regulated Speed coupled with Timing.

Strength, well define Strength.

Also I don't think it should be an "OR" question, but a "Vs" question.

[Kane]

Alright guys I chose strength and I think it matters more than even technique sometimes. What is the use of speed when you can't even hurt the person? It won't help too much if you are up against a very strong man.

Think of this scenario. Who would win between a Olympic Gold Medalist Runner and a Olympic Gold Medalist Weightlifter? I can't even see the runner even fazing the weightlifter. Speed is hence defeated in this situation.


I had a friend in high school that was also really strong. I mean he was STRONG. He has never done any martial arts or wrestling his whole life. However, I knew that if he joined wrestling (since we didn't have a heavyweight wrestler) that it would be better for our team. It was his junior year in high school and of course he would have not done so well. However, I was wrong. He was undefeated until he got to state and he placed 8th which is damn hard for even someone who has wrestled for 5 years. Getting placed in a high school State wrestling competition is one of the hardest competitions, especially if you are in a state as competitive and populated as mine. Sometimes even harder than the nationals. I at this point had wrestled for a total of 11 years and I ONLY got a 7th at state (different weight class. That is good, but my friend got 8th at state in his first year by only "muscling his way through the season". It made my training for all those years in wrestling seem like nothing. In this scenario strength mattered even more than technique.


Finally, strength even matter more than speed/technique in the animal world. Cheetahs are VERY fast and have pretty good hunting technique. However, cheetahs are one of the weakest cats and are very lightly built for only speed rather than power. Hyenas often bully them and steal their kills. Hyenas aren't really that fast and they don't hunt that much (mostly scavengers) so they lack the famous neck biting technique every other cat has. Yet, they can easily take out a cheetah with its massive bite strength. In this scenario not only was speed defeated but technique as well.


I'm not saying technique and speed are useless against strength but what I am saying is technique and strength can only get you so far. I know martial arts teaches us that strength doesn't matter most of the time and we even see it in martial arts movies of scenes where kung fu master beat up multiple men much larger than himself. However, in reality it doesn't always work that way.


Oh and if a top heavyweight weightlifter was even a 1st degree black belt in a martial art, I would sugjest even Bruce Lee should run far and fast.

[Eldritch Knight]

Kane, I think you misunderstand the point of the question. Comparing an Olympic runner and weightlifter doesn't concern the type of speed and strength that's relevant to the martial arts. Though you're right about cheetas being the weakest of the cats, keep in mind that animals are brawlers - they do not have the intelligence to develop and use martial arts. Martial arts require a good command of strategy and an intelligent mind.

Whereas a brawler would be content to simply whach away until his enemy falls, a martial artist uses concentrated, directed blows in order to attach specific weak points on his enemy. This is especially true at the higher levels of martial arts. One of the 5th dans in my system is a former NFL linebacker - big guy. His teacher, a short tai chi man, can mop the floor with him, no exceptions. There isn't even a question of strength - intenal arts specialize in redirecting power and using the strength of one's enemy against them.

The fact is, when you're comparing pure strength and speed with regard to building power, keep in mind that martial arts doesn't require an abnormally large amount of muscle power. The human body, as protected as it may seem, is a fragile thing, and can be easily shattered by a few well delivered, well thought out strikes. Considering this, one can deduce that strength, while important, is hardly as much of a decisive factor as speed.

[GAB]

Hi.

My small contribution.

Speed against strength, strength against speed. Both persons of the same weight and size, speed has an advantage if you are scoring points.
If one does not have the strength to knock out or hurt the other, no mater how much speed that person has, they will win on points, but not on pain.
At some point in the contest, strength is going to win, if it is a fight to the finish.

I think you can see that in the Bernard Hopkins win over Oscar De La Hoya.

You see it happen all the time in Boxing Match's, where some one is moving up in weight and has not developed the strength of their opponent.

Equal speed and stronger, the stronger will win most of the time, if you are not counting tags. If it's a tag fight, speed keeps away, (boxer vs puncher) speed will win. 7 out of 10 times IMO. Look at Tyson vs Lewis...Strength won.

People who came to the fight will not like it, avoidance is the key, quicker, faster, speed, more endurance, etc.

Now on the reverse, more muscle, more oxegen consumption, lack of strength then comes into the play, exhaustion, boom, fall down, trip, weak, you are your own worst enemy. George Forman can tell you about being stronger and being beat when you run out of strength.

Lean and mean...

My thoughts.

Regards, Gary

[BlackCatBonz]

One of the 5th dans in my system is a former NFL linebacker - big guy. His teacher, a short tai chi man, can mop the floor with him, no exceptions. There isn't even a question of strength - intenal arts specialize in redirecting power and using the strength of one's enemy against them.
this was the point i was trying to make in one of my earlier posts. speed and strength mean zero. knowledge of timing and distance are the factors that will determine the better fighter. most people get so caught up in speed and strength they miss the whole purpose for training, STRATEGY. this is where you learn about timing and distance and when and where you hit.....not how fast and how hard you hit. even a great military power like the US against a smaller but still deadly force, will use the concepts of timing, distance, when and where, as opposed to relying solely on their brute force.
martial arts is all about intelligent fighting, not strong like bull and smart like dumptruck.

shawn

[The Kai]

Strategy and tactics are fine, but you need some speed and strenght at the point of application. Watch Archie Moore on the old boxing tapes if you ever get a chance

[sasquatchnaruto]

i think it goes

technique>speed>strength

even thought im a pretty strong guy

[Zujitsuka]

One's speed is dependent on one's strength.

There are different types of strength (limit, absolute, starting, expolsiveness, aerobic strength, linear strenght endurance, and non-linear strength endurance ).

As it applies to martial arts, the stronger I get, the faster I get. Particularly since I've been focusing on starting strength and explosive strength.

A lot of martial artists would not dare touch weights because they fear that weight training will make them slow. I used to believe that, but I've learned that you'll only become slow if you train like a bodybuilder.

Look into articles written by Coach Davies, Coach Staley, Istvan Javorek, or Pavel Tsatsouline to learn more on this.

Peace and health,

[Raewyn]

I would say techique, than speed, than strength. For me technique is most important as if I dont get it right than speed and strength dont count!

[Makalakumu]

F=MA

Mass is strength.
Accelleration is speed.

If you spar people of other body types, you will find that each of these are directly proportional and therefore equal. Therefore a person who trains both will be able to vastly increase the force of their technique.

This is, of course, a striking perspective. I have only been training in jujutsu for three years. Perhaps someone can give a grappling perspective.

upnorthkyosa

[KenpoNoChikara]

Speed is very importent, but don't forget strength and power. They are both absolutely vital, but I think many MA's forget just how importent phisical strength can be as well.

[bignick]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...

[bignick]

by the way..i refrained from voting because with only one...you've got nothing

[An Eternal Student]

Both are equally important in my opinion.Thing is, speed with the correct use of weight behind it, can do tremendous damage.Even if the person is only about 8 stone in weight, thats still going to do a lot of damage if its done high speed.I think the problem is, most peoples speed training is focused on competition style, so they stop at surface contact.This means that their moves are light flicky ones.Speed training for self-defense is complete different, when you punch or kick you try to focus your whole weight into it.
The style of Karate I do, Wado-Ryo, creates speed through a sort of whip-lash action.When you punch with one hand, the other hand moves back at the same time as your fist moves forward.Most of the power comes from the hips as you slingshot your fist in to their face.The trick is to always aim about 6 inches behind your actual target.If I want to punch a guy in the nose,I should punch like Im trying to go straight through his head and hit a target on the back of it.A high speed attack like that, which doesnt stop at the surface, can do a hell of a lot of damage.

[Makalakumu]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...

Good post.

I would say that a punch or a kick IS accelerating though. A simple calucation can demonstration this.

[(Vo - Vi) / t] = a

Moving from stillness to motion, means that Vi = 0 m/s. Therefore Vo will be a positive number when a punch or a kick strikes your head. Speed comes into the equation by measuring the time it takes to move from stillness to impact. This acceleration generates the force behind the blow.

Momentum P = mv only talks about an interaction between mass and velocity. Momentum is conserved in a punch or a kick when the target's mass reaches a calculated velocity. Nothing is actually said about force.

MiVi = MoVo

Therefore

MiVi / Mo = Vo

See what I mean?

upnorthkyosa

[Patrick Skerry]

I think Bruce Lee was noted for both speed and power, but everyone commented on his speed. He was quick as a cat. So I think speed is more important.

[The Kai]

guru william de thouars has said that speed is >>REMOVED<<, timing is of the essence.
i think most any master of the arts that is up there in years would tell you the same thing.

shawn
Looking through the archives last night a found the tpae with the quote from Guru de Thouars, while it is true he calls speed bull***, timing is everything. The complication comes when he defines timing as "speed and slowness working together"." Watching the tape at the point where he discounts speed, you will notice that he moves pretty fast to Block/evade a punch when he demo's.

Todd

[bluemtn]

Both are vital. As a beginner, you start out slow, and as you progress, you may get faster, but should get stronger techniques before you get faster.

[shesulsa]

Did not vote, because both are important.

[Suntail]

I'm with Zujitsuka on this one. Isn't speed a resultant of strength? The stronger I get, the faster I am. The faster I am, the more power I generate.

In physics, the acceleration is from when you make contact to when contact stops. Also, in pure physics, speed is more important. A force applied over a distance divided by time is equal to power. So fd/t. Less time is more power. But then where does the speed come from?

Maybe everyone just has different ideas of strength?

-Talon

[Flatlander]

Actually, from the perspective of physics, I would posit that momentum (m*V) would, in fact, be a more valuable context from which to approach the problem.

[Makalakumu]

Actually, from the perspective of physics, I would posit that momentum (m*V) would, in fact, be a more valuable context from which to approach the problem.

Again, I would have to disagree. Force needs to be present in order to do work, though and I think we would all agree, fighting is work...;) Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.

Your intuition is correct in linking the mass and velocity aspects of this problem though. See the following derivation...

If you take F=MA and substitute A = Vo-Vi/t you get...

F = M (Vo-Vi/t)

Thus we can multiply t on both sides to rearrage the equation...

Ft = M (Vo-Vi)

Assuming a 0 initial velocity, which is correct in many striking situations, the equation now becomes...

Ft = MV

This is the equation for a quantity known as impulse. Force generated is time dependent meaning that more force generated in a shorter time interval makes mass move at a great velocity.

Or inversely...

MV = Ft

A mass moving at a certain velocity at a certain velocity generates force that is time dependent.

In realspeak this means that if I push as hard as I can on a board, it may not break, but if I apply the same force in a strike, the board breaks.

upnorthkyosa

[Flatlander]

Regarding the ability to do work, Upnorth, I completely agree. However, you did say:
Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.
Given that velocity is a vector quantity, that is all that I require. As well, I find momentum to be much easier to work with in solving collision type problems. At any rate http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon12.gif, we're basically into the realm of semantics.

[bignick]

Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.
again, staying with this....when a velocity changes is when you have acceleration...since you have a mass with changing velocity you have force....

but i think you nailed it on the head when you brought up impulse, there was actually a physics problem in one of my books about breaking board vs. bricks...and the next chapter had one on a judo hip throw(rotation, etc...)...strangley enough...if i remember correctly, a brick requires less force to break, but you need to be moving at a much faster speed

[Vadim]

I think that speed combined with proper execution of a technique will give you the necessary power. The natural strength that you have within your body also plays a factor. In conclusion a combination of both is key.

-Vadim

[Zujitsuka]

I'll chime in again and say speed. The key to power in martial arts is how fast you can get your body moving in a given direction and place your body's weight behind a strike, throw, etc. Power isn't necessarily determined by how much you can bench press or squat.

Martina Sprague expertly explains this in her book entitled FIGHTING SCIENCE: The Laws of Physics for Martial Artists.

[Kenpodoc]

"Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass. "
Good point. Thus a coasting car cannot cause any actual harm. In fact if the car is decellerating it will draw impact out of you since the accelleration is suddenly a negative number. %-}

Jeff

[loki09789]

I'll chime in again and say speed. The key to power in martial arts is how fast you can get your body moving in a given direction and place your body's weight behind a strike, throw, etc. Power isn't necessarily determined by how much you can bench press or squat.

Martina Sprague expertly explains this in her book entitled FIGHTING SCIENCE: The Laws of Physics for Martial Artists.
Agreed it is not necessarily determined, but if you have established/improved/increased the base strength of a muscle group and then train that part of the body to recruit that increased strength base in power generation/speed application, you will have a more 'powerful' strike because of that change in the strength component.

There was a performance lab study done on a girls college volleyball team where one of the categories was the vertical jump (applied to spiking/blocking) and one of the things was the cyclical or periodization pattern in the training so that as you leveled out on 'speed strength' and couldn't seem to improve, you would cycle into more basic core exercises again (squats, lunges,...) and then reapply those 'new muscles' to the plyometric/dynamic application... by cycling the routines, improvement continued in an individual way because the body and performance told the trainers/athletes when things needed to change.

[Zujitsuka]

Agreed it is not necessarily determined, but if you have established/improved/increased the base strength of a muscle group and then train that part of the body to recruit that increased strength base in power generation/speed application, you will have a more 'powerful' strike because of that change in the strength component.

There was a performance lab study done on a girls college volleyball team where one of the categories was the vertical jump (applied to spiking/blocking) and one of the things was the cyclical or periodization pattern in the training so that as you leveled out on 'speed strength' and couldn't seem to improve, you would cycle into more basic core exercises again (squats, lunges,...) and then reapply those 'new muscles' to the plyometric/dynamic application... by cycling the routines, improvement continued in an individual way because the body and performance told the trainers/athletes when things needed to change.

What you said is on the money my man. I really like the way you explained periodization. When it comes to weight training, the thing is that some people don't understand that there are different kinds of strength (starting, absolute, limit, explosive, etc.) and think that by developing absolute strength, they will be able to hit harder and faster. However, if one is doing slow lifts, these objectives will not be realized.

This is why olympic lifts like the clean and jerk, and the snatch are more functional for martial artists as they develop starting strength and explosive strength. When you throw in some plyometrics as you mentioned, one learns how to relax and then to suddenly turn-on muscles to accomplish the task at hand. In our case (as martial artists), to knock someone on their tail.

[5 hand swords]

Speed, accuracy, timing and strength. Speed is probably the biggest factor

ToddWow! Out of this expanded group of choices I would pick accuracy.
If I hit it correctly speed and strength (which has been combined to = Force and "can you say false alternitive" about the orignal question?) is much less importent and Timing is nothing without it.
A Miss is a miss at any speed or strength level and the more you miss with, the more open to a weak/slow but accurate blow you are.

[ghostdog2]

Speed Kills.

[still learning]

Hello, Which came first the egg or the chicken? Which is more important,the strenght or the speed? I like chicken and eggs. I guess I like them both. At least we can improve on both the speed and strenght for ourselves. Fast or strong? Nice to be the fast and strong when running away to escape. (In this case ,speed is better).

[Blooming Lotus]

Wow! Out of this expanded group of choices I would pick accuracy.
If I hit it correctly speed and strength (which has been combined to = Force and "can you say false alternitive" about the orignal question?) is much less importent and Timing is nothing without it.
A Miss is a miss at any speed or strength level and the more you miss with, the more open to a weak/slow but accurate blow you are.
Accuracy is good, but skill is better and accuracy only a part of it. Over and above that, quantity of skills you can use effectively is better again. For example, today we had a days worth of defence tactic training and my instructor of 20 yrs expreience, myself the only female, and men all much larger than myself, but with less skill or repetoire, used what they had ( like strength, locks and holds not catering for elbows/ foot - knee stomps / pressure points ( and wheretf might they be they ask :0 :0 ;) ) etc , where as that's the scope I use in every defence small and female as I am, but at the end of the day, they just fell short on counters. Sounds a little egotistical, but I'm convinced, size or no size, all else equal, the most techs ( options ) wins the day.

on the original question though, speed pending the skill you're using it to execute.
( btw : a "good" technique will take care of itself and work regardless )

Blooming Lotus

[ghostdog2]

The question was: Which creates more power, speed or strength. I used to play a lot of golf and this issue was the topic of endless research and debate. In that sport, the question is: how to apply more force to the golf ball and get more distance. The answer: greater clubhead speed not a heavier club or "stronger" swing. Why? Their answer is that F=MV(squared). Force equals mass times velocity squared. Therefor, any increase in velocity (since it will be squared) has a greater effect than an equivalent increase in mass.
I don't vouch for the accuracy of the physics or the conversion of golf swing theory to MA, but it's food for thought.
As an aside, any technique will diminish in effectiveness if your opponent can see it coming a mile away. My instructor emphasises speed."Let your punches fly, kick fast and through your target. The power will be there." Seems to work, imho.

[Kenpodoc]

The question was: Which creates more power, speed or strength. I used to play a lot of golf and this issue was the topic of endless research and debate. In that sport, the question is: how to apply more force to the golf ball and get more distance. The answer: greater clubhead speed not a heavier club or "stronger" swing. Why? Their answer is that F=MV(squared). Force equals mass times velocity squared. Therefor, any increase in velocity (since it will be squared) has a greater effect than an equivalent increase in mass.
I don't vouch for the accuracy of the physics or the conversion of golf swing theory to MA, but it's food for thought.
As an aside, any technique will diminish in effectiveness if your opponent can see it coming a mile away. My instructor emphasises speed."Let your punches fly, kick fast and through your target. The power will be there." Seems to work, imho.
F=MA,
kE=MV(squared) Mild nit picking since it's kinetic energy you want to discuss anyway. Unfortunately MA striking effectiveness is more complicated than golf.

Respectfully,

Jeff

[Ippon Ken]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...
Using the equation for force you'll find that speed (velocity) is twice as important as mass (hence velocity squared). That's how tornadoes and hurricanes can imbed a piece of straw (hay) or a twig into a tree trunk. Little mass but extreme velocity. Now beyond speed efficient transfer of power is very important in striking. Using the smallest and strongest contact areas along a line (radius to first 2 knuckles, big toe-tips) etc. will deliver more force into the target in a concentrated matter (small area) which results in penetrating force versus superficial distribution. This is where whipping, relaxed motions that follow through the target, returning just as fast or faster if possible (vs. pushing punches), will maximize striking force. This same principle applies to high velocity bullets, arrows and any projectile.

Thrown correctly a punch or a kick is a projectile, not unlike a ball and chain (manriki) or mace. Note that whipping and snapping strikes are NOT synonymous. As for the Cheetah thing, uhhhh, their weapons (jaws) aren't using velocity. That speed involves locomotion.

Strength for striking entails some muscle but more sinew (connective tissue like tendons and ligaments). Relying solely on muscles only lasts when you're young, and full-force is not seen without flexiblity even if you're young and strong but stiff. Also antagonistic and protagonistic muscle action need to be understood before you can maximize striking efficacy and efficiency. This is why the progression of primarily striking arts usually goes from hard to soft as things become more ingrained in muscle memory and become more second nature or reflexive with years and years of proper, diligent training.

My take. Take it or leave it, but it's based on "the real" versus assumption. Peace.

[Loren W. Christensen]

In my opinion it depends on what you’re doing. Some say that you need speed to “open the door” and power to close it. This means you need a quick offense to startle/hit the threat, and then you need power to bring him to his knees. That said, the situation might call for power first, since you might have only one opportunity to hit.



Others argue that power isn’t necessary as long as you hit a vital target. Of course speed helps you get your blow there before the threat can block or evade.



Many masters say that neither speed nor power are important because it’s all about timing, hitting the target at a precise moment.



As an aside, the good news is that lifting heavy weights stimulates the fast-twitch muscle fibers that develop both speed and power.



Loren Christensen

www.lwcbooks.com

[Kenpodoc]

The formula you are looking for is Kinetic energy (KE)

KE = (mass x velocity squared)/2 or 1/2 mv2 or 1/2 x m x v x v

Velocity is clearly more important than mass since it is squared but in biophysics this gets more complicated. Velocity is at least partially related to strength. But it is also related to well coordinated relaxation of opposing muscles and the coordinated movement across multiple joints.

There are very fast Martial artists who mostly perform fluttering butterfly techniques because of poor timing, inefficient use of there own mass, and failure to penetrate so that the braking action comes from within their own tissues and not from the opponents.

There are very strong martial artists whose resting tone is so high that much of their strength goes into fighting the opposing muscles in their own body.

An example of the use of physics to amplify speed and effect is the whip. A simple easy motion at the handle can lead to a supersonic flesh tearing action at the tip.

I love watching old movies of Edmund Parker. A big powerful man but totally relaxed and each movement looks effortless but the timing and coordination of his body movement combined to cause powerful accurate strikes. A current martial artist displaying this is Vladamir Vasiliev (Systema). He never looks like he is hurrying or working hard but the effect is so devastating that it almost looks fake.

Jeff

[Shidan]

Speed :D

[OC Kid]

To me timing, you can be fast,strong but if your timing is off nothing will work

[AC_Pilot]

Neither. Strength x speed = power. One needs both to excell against a variety of opponents.

[Simon Curran]

Physics aside, I recently witness my trainer (about 160 lbs and very fast) sparring with one of the trainers from our sister club (about 325 lbs and average speed)

I probably don't need to tell you how that looked, my trainer used his speed to get in and out very fast, but eventually he was just about bowled over as a result of pure mass.

[ArtlessArt]

There is one thing that I've noticed in this thread as missing, what about endurance? All the speed, strength, technique etc... is worth nothing if you can't hold your own for more than a few minutes (and I have sparred some guys that were easily 150+ pounds more than me, way stronger and probably way meaner, but were huffing and puffing after minutes).

That being said its not speed or strength that matters, but the whole package. Thinking otherwise is gonna leave you counting lights on a dojo ceiling, while the bigger/smaller, but better trained competitor/martial artist/whatever is mopping the floor with you.

[Knifehand]

There is one thing that I've noticed in this thread as missing, what about endurance? All the speed, strength, technique etc... is worth nothing if you can't hold your own for more than a few minutes (and I have sparred some guys that were easily 150+ pounds more than me, way stronger and probably way meaner, but were huffing and puffing after minutes).

That being said its not speed or strength that matters, but the whole package. Thinking otherwise is gonna leave you counting lights on a dojo ceiling, while the bigger/smaller, but better trained competitor/martial artist/whatever is mopping the floor with you.
I agree. but this is all academic if you are fighting people of your belt rank or of the same skill level. I can't see a cho dan needing much strength, speed or endurance to be a yellow belt. In a self defense situation, however, speed makes all the difference. Regardless of how stong you are, you can put someone down by going for pressure points and critical areas such as the solar plexus or the area between the nose and the mouth (in Joong), quickly and accuratly, you wouldn't need much endurance.

a few aspects that were not mentioned were Balance, focus, and coordination.

[CountPike]

It depends on the strike. Jabs and roundhouses for instance you want speed to create a greater inpulse but for hooks and sidekicks plain strength is good.

Speed is closely realted to strength. Strength with conditioning will however ultimately out-do plain speed.