new self-defense programs based on techniques from X-Kans..

[wadokai_indo]

Hello all, I have a question. No disrespect intended towards anyone, I just want to start a healthy discussions, so help me God :)

Imagine a woman who has years of experience in Karate. Then she studied in one of the X-Kans (Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan) until she received Shodan status. After practicing some more, she decided to start a new self-defense program for women ("by women for women" is the catchword), based on techniques from the X-Kans. She picked a few Katas to deal with certain situations (for example, Kaigo Kudaki for defending against rear breast grab/full nelson, Gyakute Nage for defending against a right hand slap, Ketsumyaku to deal with rear choke, Yokuto to deal with front choke etc).

She doesn't call this new program "Ninjutsu", she call it something else, "Defensive Karate-Taijutsu".

Will this new program be considered as "Modern Ninjutsu"? Or maybe it is more fitting to call it "Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu"? Providing that she studied under a genuine X-Kan instructor licensed by Japan, will her program be considered as having a valid lineage?

Awaiting your comments,

Ben Haryo

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm

[wadokai_indo]

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pirates.htm
Wow, thank you Nimravus for this very interesting article! :)

[Shizen Shigoku]

wadokai_indo: "Will this new program be considered as 'Modern Ninjutsu?'"

Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: It would depend on what your definition of 'Modern Ninjutsu' is. If it's "Put whatever you want together and call it 'Ninjutsu' - then yes.

"Or maybe it is more fitting to call it 'Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu?'"

That's better. Easiest thing to do is just call it "Women's Self Defense" and if anyone asks where the instructor learned self-defense techniques, she can tell them her background.

[wadokai_indo]

wadokai_indo: "Will this new program be considered as 'Modern Ninjutsu?'"

Short Answer: No.
Long Answer: It would depend on what your definition of 'Modern Ninjutsu' is. If it's "Put whatever you want together and call it 'Ninjutsu' - then yes.

"Or maybe it is more fitting to call it 'Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu?'"

That's better. Easiest thing to do is just call it "Women's Self Defense" and if anyone asks where the instructor learned self-defense techniques, she can tell them her background.
Yes yes, that sounds much pleasant to the ears & does not need to use strange Japanese words which are not comprehensible to non-Japanese! :)

And if she meets people who likes to inquire about lineages, all she needs to do is to show her karate & Ninpo certificates, right? With a clarification that she is not currently teaching karate and/or ninpo but her own creation instead?

Anyway Thank you very much for your comments!

[Shizen Shigoku]

wadokai_indo: "Yes yes, that sounds much pleasant to the ears & does not need to use strange Japanese words which are not comprehensible to non-Japanese!"

Exactly. While having a style that has an exotic foriegn-sounding name to it has its appeal, so does having a name that is simple and accurate.

"And if she meets people who likes to inquire about lineages, all she needs to do is to show her karate & Ninpo certificates, right? With a clarification that she is not currently teaching karate and/or ninpo but her own creation instead?"

Yup. And if they inquire on how they too could learn karate or ninjutsu, she would be able to refer them to her instructors.

That's the real reason why honesty is the best policy. It's just plain easier.

[wadokai_indo]

wadokai_indo: "Yes yes, that sounds much pleasant to the ears & does not need to use strange Japanese words which are not comprehensible to non-Japanese!"

Exactly. While having a style that has an exotic foriegn-sounding name to it has its appeal, so does having a name that is simple and accurate.

"And if she meets people who likes to inquire about lineages, all she needs to do is to show her karate & Ninpo certificates, right? With a clarification that she is not currently teaching karate and/or ninpo but her own creation instead?"

Yup. And if they inquire on how they too could learn karate or ninjutsu, she would be able to refer them to her instructors.

That's the real reason why honesty is the best policy. It's just plain easier.
And I guess the traditional Gi can be replaced with modern sports clothing as well, so the ladies can looks "trendy" while training :D

In the long run, do you think this kind of special programs will take away the "market" of the traditional martial arts? (this is what I am concerned about)..

I mean, these days many people just want common-sense self-defense and doesn't really cares that much about preserving traditions...

[Cryozombie]

And I guess the traditional Gi can be replaced with modern sports clothing as well, so the ladies can looks "trendy" while training :D

In the long run, do you think this kind of special programs will take away the "market" of the traditional martial arts? (this is what I am concerned about)..


Nah... worrying about marketing is silly... most people, if those people are serious, they will investigate, ask questions, look around... not choose based on "flash" or Billboard ads... So I would say no.

[wadokai_indo]

Nah... worrying about marketing is silly... most people, if those people are serious, they will investigate, ask questions, look around... not choose based on "flash" or Billboard ads... So I would say no.
Ahh yess, makes sense.. So, traditional arts for serious people, short courses for those who just wants to have some basic goshinjutsu techniques...

thank you!

[sojobow]

"Or maybe it is more fitting to call it 'Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu?'"

That's better. Easiest thing to do is just call it "Women's Self Defense" and if anyone asks where the instructor learned self-defense techniques, she can tell them her background.It is better to call it "...'Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu?'" Guarantee you though, as soon as her website goes live, she's gonna get hit for using the term "Taijutsu." She will be the topic of one of these threads just like the GeninAndrew's school. There will be definate inquiries into her "lineage"; her own boog teachers, and someone will bring up the "weakness" of her teacher's abilities and why in the world would she combine Karate with the authentic Taijutsu. She's gonna get hit hard.

If she's paying rent, she's gonna start using the term Taijutsu or Ninjutsu in here Fictious Business Name. Some names sell, some don't. What the heck is "Women's Self Defense" anyway? Lord help her if she uses Kanji.

Good thing though, the Karate people would care less.

[wadokai_indo]

It is better to call it "...'Modern Self-Defense form based on karate and Taijutsu?'" Guarantee you though, as soon as her website goes live, she's gonna get hit for using the term "Taijutsu." She will be the topic of one of these threads just like the GeninAndrew's school. There will be definate inquiries into her "lineage"; her own boog teachers, and someone will bring up the "weakness" of her teacher's abilities and why in the world would she combine Karate with the authentic Taijutsu. She's gonna get hit hard.

If she's paying rent, she's gonna start using the term Taijutsu or Ninjutsu in here Fictious Business Name. Some names sell, some don't. What the heck is "Women's Self Defense" anyway? Lord help her if she uses Kanji.

Good thing though, the Karate people would care less.
Ehh... so things could get that complicated? whoa..

So I'd better advise my friends not to use any Japanese words at all when starting their own self-defense program!

[Enson]

"would this be considered modern ninjutsu?"

no. ninjutsu is a package deal. taijutsu is only one aspect of ninjutsu so the answer would be no. women's self defense would be a better name for it. she can have that translated to japanese to make it sound more cool, but in either case... unless she teaches the full package she should refrain from the ninjutsu title. (of course imo)
her students would be welcome to come and post under modern (as with any other part of mt).

peace

[wadokai_indo]

"would this be considered modern ninjutsu?"

no. ninjutsu is a package deal. taijutsu is only one aspect of ninjutsu so the answer would be no. women's self defense would be a better name for it. she can have that translated to japanese to make it sound more cool, but in either case... unless she teaches the full package she should refrain from the ninjutsu title. (of course imo)
her students would be welcome to come and post under modern (as with any other part of mt).

peace
Yes, I agree with this.. in fact it is rather silly to use Ninjutsu or even Taijutsu term here in Indonesia.. people doesn't understand it at all! In Indonesia most of our people doesn't know about Ninjutsu or the Ninjas, and Ninja movies are not very popular (even in the 80s with the Michael Dudikoff films and Chuck Norris films)..so there are no "cool" factor at all..

Thank you for your input, and peace to you too!

[unterlich]

In my opinion, I agree is "she" called her new style : "neo ninjutsu", because the main idea of the nin is endurance power from the heart (in my own words :D) + the jutsu mean ing technique or anything like that.

so the ninjutsu technique that "she" developed from the old times karate and X-Kans system combined with the street fighting goshinjutsu (for women of coz) equals

"NEO NINJUTSU FOR WOMAN"


I'm sure the uniform would be nice in swim suit or gymnastic clothes :p
and I hope the X-kans Kancho's wouldn't mind obout the neo clothes

I remember that the daughter of Sato Kimbe also well knowed for her jujutsu + bagua
'N I've heard that she developing also her new technique

Danke Schoen

[unterlich]

I wonder why do ppl like so much to be a ninja, while in Indonesia, ninja is a very famous term for burglar, thief, etc

[unterlich]

continuing the nin concept :

if she continue using the term ninjutsu is no problema, coz she teach techique how to be tamper-proof heart woman

like in COSMOPOLITAN magazine motto : Fun Fearless Female :d

[wadokai_indo]

I wonder why do ppl like so much to be a ninja, while in Indonesia, ninja is a very famous term for burglar, thief, etc
Yes, that is why I said that here in Indones, the name "ninja" or "ninpo/ninjutsu" will not be an advantage in attracting students.. the best case will be the local Genbukan club (I believe you're in that club Unterlich?), which has 20 members total... and this country has 250 million people... and it's been open since 2000!

[unterlich]

hmm in YK about 8-10
dunno in Jakarta and Bekasi, i never ask mr martadi for that

[heretic888]

if she continue using the term ninjutsu is no problema, coz she teach techique how to be tamper-proof heart woman

There are many, many schools that could make the same claim. Doesn't make them "ninjutsu".

I do think you may be confusing "ninjutsu" with "ninpo", personally. :asian:

[Enson]

I do think you may be confusing "ninjutsu" with "ninpo", personally. :asian:what would be the definition of the two?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Something like the difference between breaking/MC-ing and hiphop?:D

[heretic888]

what would be the definition of the two?

Well, at the rest of mucking up and making myself look like an ass....

Ninpo is supposed to be more like a philosophy, a way of looking at and doing things, a sort of worldview, having a lot to do with things like strategy, philosophy, and so on.

Ninjutsu is supposed to be a collection of martial arts skills one would find particularly useful on a sabotage or intelligence mission.

That's how I've been explained it, anyways.

Laterz. :asian:

[wadokai_indo]

Ninjutsu is supposed to be a collection of martial arts skills one would find particularly useful on a sabotage or intelligence mission.

That's how I've been explained it, anyways.

Laterz. :asian:
I guess this means that Taijutsu training is just a part of Ninjutsu training, let's say Taijutsu is Jujutsu for Ninjas, am I right?

[wadokai_indo]

hmm in YK about 8-10
dunno in Jakarta and Bekasi, i never ask mr martadi for that
10 people in YK and 10 people in Jakarta, makes it total 20 right? I never been to the Bekasi branch though..

[heretic888]

I guess this means that Taijutsu training is just a part of Ninjutsu training, let's say Taijutsu is Jujutsu for Ninjas, am I right?

Nope. Taijutsu really just means 'skill with the body'. Its a term found in a good number of Japanese martial arts, new and old, the most popular being aikido. Same goes for jujutsu.

Also, there are many ryuha in the Takamatsu-den that don't have anything to do with "ninja" (i.e., Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu and Asayama Ichiden ryu Taijutsu).

I would say that ninpo taijutsu is part of ninjutsu training, and ninjutsu training is part of budo taijutsu. If you want to look at it that way.

That's how I see it anyway. :asian:

[wadokai_indo]

Nope. Taijutsu really just means 'skill with the body'. Its a term found in a good number of Japanese martial arts, new and old, the most popular being aikido. Same goes for jujutsu.

Also, there are many ryuha in the Takamatsu-den that don't have anything to do with "ninja" (i.e., Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu and Asayama Ichiden ryu Taijutsu).

I would say that ninpo taijutsu is part of ninjutsu training, and ninjutsu training is part of budo taijutsu. If you want to look at it that way.

That's how I see it anyway. :asian:
Err.. in the genbukan, Takagi Yoshin-ryu is called Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu and is considered a Jujutsu style, that's why this Ryuha is the backbone of the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei (KJJR)..

[heretic888]

Err.. in the genbukan, Takagi Yoshin-ryu is called Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu and is considered a Jujutsu style, that's why this Ryuha is the backbone of the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei (KJJR)..

Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu and Hontai Yoshin Takagi ryu Jujutsu are not the same ryuha. They have different soke, and teach different things.

[wadokai_indo]

Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu and Hontai Yoshin Takagi ryu Jujutsu are not the same ryuha. They have different soke, and teach different things.
Hmmm.. that's not the way I was told. Both Ryuha traced their lineage to Ohkuni Onihei, then down to Takamatsu sensei (they diverged a bit into Ishitani-den and Mizuta-den, but all ended up in Takamatsu sensei). The technique names is also the same in their shoden no kata and chuden no kata (I am yet to see the rest of the catalog).

I admit that some of the movements are not similar, even though they have similar names.

But still, I am 100% positive that both Ryuha are very closely related.

[heretic888]

I never said they weren't "closely related". I said they were different ryuha.

[unterlich]

yeah, in the past they're the same ryuha, but since takamatsu den broke up, they became different ryu ha

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Nope. Takamatsu sensei had separate teachers of Takagi Yoshin ryu and Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu. He learned Takagi Yoshin ryu from Mizuta sensei and Hontai Takagi Yoshin ryu from Ishitani sensei.

[r erman]

There are about five branches of Takagi ryu that I think are still active. I don't think all are traced back to Takamatsu, but rather his teachers(or theirs).

[Kizaru]

Also, there are many ryuha in the Takamatsu-den that don't have anything to do with "ninja" (i.e., Takagi Yoshin ryu Jutaijutsu and Asayama Ichiden ryu Taijutsu).:asian:
I was under the impression that Hatsumi sensei had learned Asayama Ichiden ryu from someone else other than Takamatsu sensei.

[wadokai_indo]

I was under the impression that Hatsumi sensei had learned Asayama Ichiden ryu from someone else other than Takamatsu sensei.
Yes, he learned Asayama Ichiden-ryu from Ueno Takashi sensei, or so I was told.

[J. Lee]

Lots of explanations and maybe's :

Honest approach is to ADVERTISE by word of mouth
and let her skill promote her activities

I notice a shift in topic for this thread !
Another shift is " SEARCH " SELOUS SCOUTS

j lee

[wadokai_indo]

Lots of explanations and maybe's :

Honest approach is to ADVERTISE by word of mouth
and let her skill promote her activities

I notice a shift in topic for this thread !
Another shift is " SEARCH " SELOUS SCOUTS

j lee
Ah yes.. from women self-defense, it drifted a little towards the history of takamatsu den ;)

So sorry for the drift. Guys, please go back to the topic.. :)