The Tapi Tapi Legacy: The 'New,' the 'Old,' and the Gatekeepers.

[Cruentus]

I. Intro

This will probably be the longest thread yet, but I want to address some important issues here. If you can bear through reading all of this, then I want to hear your opinions. They are very important to me. I feel that discrepancies involving “Tapi-Tapi” has been one of the key things that has separated the associations, as well as the individual practitioners. Therefore, I feel the issue should be discussed.

II. The development of “Modern” Tapi-Tapi.

I’ll begin with a little note about Professor Presas. Professor liked to take a simple idea and apply it to as many different concepts, in as many different ways possible. This is not uncharacteristic of the Filipino arts in general. One idea or movement has developed entire styles. This expansion of ideas is part of what was so cool about Professors seminars. In a day, he could start off with Single Sinawali with 1 or 2 sticks; 5 or 6 hours later he would have everyone doing empty-handed traps, locks, and takedowns off of the same movement. Why? Because “It’s all da same!” Remember? This way, regardless of skill level, everyone would benefit from his seminars.

Now, let’s discuss Tapi-Tapi within the last few years. For all intensive purposes, we’ll call it “Modern Tapi-Tapi,” so there won’t be any confusion. Modern Tapi-Tapi began in the 90’s as a drill, very much like the box drill, or any other give-and-take drill. One of the key differences was that instead of an even give-and-take, you had a “driver” who would dominate the entire segment of the drill. This drill, as Modern Tapi-Tapi was only a drill in the beginning, began to develop. Just as Professor had expanded upon other exercises in the past, eventually Tapi-Tapi became more then just a drill. It transformed into an intricate method of give-and-take, where one can express important Modern Arnis concepts. Professor had become very excited about his new innovation. He had even called it “the heart of the Art.” Yes, he did say this on more then one occasion; I was there for a few of them.

III. Flow

Professor called Tapi-Tapi the heart of Modern Arnis. He had also said this about other things in the past, however. Are we to assume, then, that he was wrong when he had said this before? Are we to believe that one Drill is the heart of the entire Art? If that is the case, then let’s just change the name of our art from Modern Arnis to Tapi-Tapi, and be done with it.

I don’t believe that he was wrong all those years when he had said the same about other things, and I don’t believe that all of Modern Arnis is to be based off of one drill. Our Art would be very limited if that where true. I think that every-time Professor said “This is the Key…” or “This is the heart…” of the Art, he was referring to a concept within the drill, not just the drill by itself.

This concept that I’m referring to is the “Flow.” The Flow is basically the idea of properly adapting to the change from one thing to another. In Modern Arnis, the Flow will allow one to constantly spiral upward in learning, always progressing to a higher level. In life, the Flow will allow one to adapt to it’s many changes, to constantly grow. In combat, the Flow will allow one to respond to the ever-changing circumstances, allowing one to stay alive. Professor, in every situation, had mastered the flow. I think that if we are to adequately interpret what he meant, we would all agree that Flow is the heart, and the Flow demonstrated in the drills is the heart, not the drill itself.

Now, this is not to diminish the Tapi-Tapi exercise. Over the last few years, Professor loved Modern Tapi-Tapi. Though this drill, he had developed a new way of teaching old and advanced concepts; concepts that he had previously used to beat other Arnisador’s and Martial Artist’s. These advanced concepts could be taught to beginners. Before the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, these concepts were privy to only the most advanced of his students. As some of Professors more experienced students will point out, Tapi-Tapi wasn’t necessarily in introduction to ‘New’ Arnis techniques; it was just a new and wonderful way of teaching the “Flow” of these techniques. This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow.

He became so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi, that the words “The Flow” and “Tapi-Tapi” became almost interchangeable. Nowadays, many of his students use the words “Tapi-Tapi,” in the same way that I, or others use “The Flow.” It is only a matter of rhetoric. I chose not to interchange the words, however, for a very important reason. I will explain my reason later on.

Now, after defining what Professor had said, I need to make a vital point. Could someone find the Flow in other Modern Arnis drills, other then Modern Tapi-Tapi? Could important innovations be made from other exercises? Yes! Professor had been doing this throughout his whole career, with students 10, 15, and 20 plus years ago. Advanced students learned the flow without Modern Tapi-Tapi. Keep in mind that there existed very complex exercises, such as “Solo Baston” and Stick Sparring methods that have been around for ages.

III. The “Old,” the “New,” and the “Gatekeepers.”

This explanation of Modern Tapi-Tapi is insufficient for the Gatekeepers. Unfortunately, the truth about Tapi-Tapi is not what the Gatekeepers would want you to think. The term “Gatekeeper” is actually not my term; it was made up and used as a joke during some of the old camp days. As funny as it was, the Gatekeeper definition far too accurately describes too many of our current leaders and practitioners of Modern Arnis. Gatekeepers are basically higher ranked individuals who want to make people believe that they are the ones who hold the key to the “Gates” of Professors methods, and no one else. It is their belief that only through them (and their interpretation of Professor) that successful knowledge of the art may be acquired. They are exclusionists. Their main concern is securing their position as Gatekeeper. They want to make up the rules for Professors art. They will let you “in” to learn only if you abide by their rules, and if you pay homage to them as the all mighty Gatekeepers. You must vow to never even try to learn anything in Modern Arnis beyond what they know, you must never question them, and don’t even suggest that you should become a Gatekeeper yourself.

Obey them and pay homage and you are welcome. Disobey, and you are ostracized by them. Even questioning them could lead to exclusion. They do this because they are afraid of losing face, and their technique is limited. They are only good to a point, and only at certain things. They want you to believe, of course, that they are just like professor. They want you to think that because they’ve hung around professor that this must be true. Do not, however, ever confuse them as being anywhere near like Professor. You see, the Gatekeepers have stopped learning. They have gotten good to a point, and then their ego’s kicked in, and they stopped training. Oh sure, they’d show their faces at the seminars, to stroke their ego’s. Professor might use them to demo, and every now and again they’d walk by you while you were training, just to tell you what to do. Professor would sometimes give them little “jobs,” to keep them occupied, and to make them feel special. Did you ever see them train? How about something basic, like block-check-counter with a less experienced student? You see, once they became Gatekeeper, they were too busy gate-keeping for training, or learning. They are not like Professor. Professor never stopped learning.

Now that we know what I mean by “Gatekeepers,” who are the “Old” and the “New”? To keep it simple, I have coined these terms. The ‘Old’ are people who trained with Professor before 1990, and the ‘New’ are people who have either started training, or continued their training with Professor after 1990. I separate the two, for our purposes here because both the ‘Old’ and the ‘New’ have different, but wonderful things to offer Modern Arnis. The ‘New’ had the blessing of being around for the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, and to witness Professors most recent innovations. The ‘Old’ had the benefit of training in other aspects of the art that hadn’t been a focus in more recent years. Both the ‘Old’ and the ‘New’ are equally important to the Art. For example, if I want to learn Modern Tapi-Tapi innovations, I might want to talk to a someone who trained w/ Professor in more recent years; if I want to learn something like Modern Arnis Daga y Mano, I may instead want to talk to someone who trained close with Professor before the 90’s. Do you see what I mean?


IV. The Gatekeeper Abuse of Modern Tapi-Tapi

Well, the Gatekeepers have since come and gone over the years, but they’ve always been the same. But we are now in a dilemma. The ones who have stuck around for the last 8 years or so are now using Modern Tapi-Tapi to do what they do best. They are using Professors wonderful innovation to exclude others. It has gotten worse since Professors death. This is what they want you to believe:

If you are a member of the ‘New,’ you are told that Modern Tapi-Tapi (the drill, not the flow concept) is the heart of Modern Arnis. After all, that is what Professor said, right? Well, since they are oh so wonderful at Modern Tapi-Tapi (hey, maybe they’re even a “master” at it), that they must know the most out of anyone about Modern Arnis. Therefore, you must learn through them if your going to get anywhere at all through the art. If you disagree with them or their methods, then you must completely misunderstand the art. And who really cares what your knife, double stick, empty hand, or other techniques are like; after all the Gatekeepers might know one drill better then you, so…you must pay homage to the Gatekeepers!

If you are a member of the ‘Old,’ you are told something even worse. You are basically told that your hard earned training, previous to the development of Modern Tapi-Tapi, is second rate. This is because Modern Arnis is a progressive art. So, if you haven’t been around for the last few years, then you somehow missed it. You missed the progression. So, scrap everything you know. Forget the fact that you trained with professor for years in the old day’s, learning all aspects of the “Flow,” and that you can probably single cane kick the crap out of some of the Tapi-Tapi Gatekeepers with Solo Baston techniques of the past. You don’t know a lick of Modern Tapi-Tapi, so you must now pay homage to the Gatekeepers!

This may seem exaggerated, but I don’t think I’m too far off. Granted, the Gatekeepers aren’t saying these things outright, but this is the message that they give. These gatekeepers, so long as they remain Gatekeepers, are bad for the art. They pit ‘Old’ against ‘New,’ student against student, and association against association. We’ve got ‘Old’ people coming out of the woodwork with a sense of duty after Professor’s death, and ‘New’ people are discouraging them with the message, “Wait, you haven’t been around for the last 5 years to witness Professors resent innovations, how dare you claim to know anything now!” The ‘Old,’ often on the defensive, give back the message, “ I’ve trained for a long time, and I know things that you’ve probably never seen. How dare you!” And let’s not even address how exclusionary some associations have been, with some of their key players being Gatekeepers themselves. All of these problems and arguments have been created and propagated by the Gatekeepers. As long as different members of the art argue over it’s aspects, then the Tapi-Tapi Gatekeepers will continue their rein. Everyone will be too busy arguing among each other, and not enough will pack together to expose them for who, and what they really are.

V. Conclusion

I feel that what the Gatekeepers have done with one of Professors most innovative drills, Tapi-Tapi, is outright wrong. I think that if Professor knew how this beautiful drill was going to be used to exclude, as opposed too include, I think that he would have re-thought a few things; especially the titles he gave, and the rhetoric he used when referring to Tapi-Tapi. I am careful, nowadays, when I use the words “Tapi-Tapi.” I say “Solo-Baston” when referring to the drill, and “Flow” when referring to the concept. I just don’t like what the Gatekeepers have done with the name. Don’t get me wrong, some of my Arnis friends avidly use the term “Tapi-Tapi,” and there are members of the “Masters of Tapi-Tapi” group whom I respect. Many of my friends still say Tapi-Tapi is the essence of the art, when I would say that the Flow is. Well… “It’s all da same!” Just understand why I use the word ‘Flow’ instead.

VI. Epilogue: What to do?

Well, what can we do about the Gatekeepers, and the misuse of Tapi-Tapi? How do we further the art like our founding father would have wanted?

First of all, do not train with the Gatekeepers until they stop being Gatekeepers. This is what we can do about the abuse of our art. Now I know that this sounds like I’m being exclusionary, but I am not. They can always stop being Gatekeepers. All they have to do is set their ego’s aside, and decide to work on furthering the art instead of excluding others. As difficult as this will be for them, it can be done. For as long as they remain Gatekeepers, though, do not train with them. No matter what they’ve learned, their behavior will not benefit you at all. Not in the long run. Remember, they are ultimately excluding themselves, and they can always stop what they’re doing to come back home to the art.

To further the art, just remember what Professor stood for. With that we must all join hands together! The ‘New’ and ‘Old’ must humble themselves and learn what each other has to offer. Everyone, regardless of experience, play’s an intricate role in this “Art within’ your Art.” If we all pact together the way Professor Presas would have wanted, we will continue the beautiful art of Modern Arnis!

Everyone in the art is a piece to its puzzle, and a piece that is lost could be lost forever.

Respectfully,
PAUL
:asian:

[Roland]

I will have to look further and maybe discuss some things with you to make sure.
All in all though, Paul, I think you got it right again.

:wavey:

[Brian Johns]

Paul,

You write very well and you expressed yourself quite well in your message. I do have a few things to say in response to what you stated in your long post.

One preliminary matter......since you refer to the "Gatekeeper abuse of Tapi Tapi", I assume that you are referring to the MOTTs. You indicated your belief that these Gatekeepers are excluding other folks. Quite frankly, I'm scratching my head over your feeling that they have excluded other people. I respectfully disagree with your opinion on that score. I can go into the reasons why I disagree with you on this issue. However, I think that any discussion of the MOTTs should be in a private e-mail between the two of us.

With regard to your description and understanding of tapi tapi, I will have to respectfully disagree as well.

(1)
It transformed into an intricate method of give-and-take, where one can express important Modern Arnis concepts.

I do not agree with this statement. While this statement may be true for beginners, it is not so once you have had experience with tapi tapi. It is much more than "an intricate method of give and take." Tapi tapi is counter for counter and can be done out of any drill. Tapi tapi is the CONCEPT of counter for counter. It is most assuredly not a drill. At the higher levels of tapi tapi, there is no such thing as give and take. A person will learn to spot the openings and undertake the appropriate counter. Tapi tapi can be done with sticks, with empty hand, knives, joint locks etc. Tapi tapi can be done out of the sinawalis, the block check counter drills, punches, any of the 12 angles...anywhere.

Furthermore, tapi tapi at its highest level involves angling, body positioning, use of the checking hand, hip involvement, triangle footwork and timing. There is an element of pressure sensitivity and feeling your opponent's energy and redirecting it.

(2) <<<<This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow. >>>>

This may be purely semantics. But I think that there is a difference between the flow and tapi tapi. The flow is the ability to move from one technique to another. Tapi tapi is the concept of counter for counter. It's the ability to counter an opponent's technique.

(3) <<This is why Professor had become so passionate about Modern Tapi-Tapi. He found a great new way for his students to learn the flow. >>

As I said before, tapi tapi is much more than flow. It's counter for counter. Indeed, tapi tapi is Tagalog for counter/counter.

(4) <<<If you are a member of the ‘New,’ you are told that Modern Tapi-Tapi (the drill, not the flow concept) is the heart of Modern Arnis. After all, that is what Professor said, right? Well, since they are oh so wonderful at Modern Tapi-Tapi (hey, maybe they’re even a “master” at it), that they must know the most out of anyone about Modern Arnis.>>>

Without referring to the factions involved, I should point out once again that tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is the concept of counter for counter and can be done with any drill. It's the ability to sense your opponent's intent and energy and countering whatever he is doing at that moment. It's done with timing, footwork, body positioning and all of the other stuff that I've indicated above. There are DRILLS to learn the concept of tapi tapi. Tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is a concept and the concept is counter for counter.

There are those who would argue that there is no difference between the concept of the flow and the concept of tapi tapi and that it is all the same. That's probably true. However, the point of my post is to point out that tapi tapi is NOT a drill. It is a concept. This was something that was hammered into us by Professor. It is why he felt that it was the heart of the art in the past several years.

As for the remainder of the post and your political feelings regarding "gatekeepers" etc, I would be happy to discuss it but only through private e-mail. As I indicated above, I obviously have disagreements with your take on a certain faction and prefer not to discuss it in a public forum.





:soapbox:

Take care.

[bloodwood]

For all intent and purposes the Professor's stage was the seminar. Of course there were private lessons but the main forum for the Professor to put out his art to the masses, in the old days or the new was the seminar. He had previously tried to teach solo-baston and keep it going with the flow but it was over the head of most students who would attend the seminars. Although there were many advanced students at his seminars the teaching was geared toward the beginner or intermediate student. Recently the Professor became excited about the tapi-tapi drills because it was something all students could in some form or another do and feel good about themselves and not get frustrated. He used it to connect the different techniques.

The PROBLEM with tapi-tapi began when it became the end all be all. I saw this first hand at the school I used to train at. New students would walk in off the street and were immediately started out on advanced tapi-tapi sets. Basics such as trapping hands, angles of attack, footwork, zoning and disarms were barely touched on. We used to do what the Professor loved to call innovations. They made you THINK.
Now students are doing prearranged tapi-tapi sets and think they've got it all. Just try and add and extra strike in at the end of the prearranged set and most of them will get wacked in the head. When the set is over that's it, they're done until they start on their next set. Granted the advanced players can keep a drill going forever but for the majority that is not the case.

Tapi-Tapi is just another piece of the giant puzzle that the Professor has left us. I don't believe any of us will ever complete the Puzzle because it was designed to keep growing and keeps us searching for new pieces and new sections to complete, however if we get stuck on one piece and linger on it too long we will loose out on the big picture. :soapbox:

[Datu Tim Hartman]

I think what Paul is referring to is that if you weren't in the fold at the end, you were excluded from much of the information. In Paul's case, he was planning to see Remy at a seminar and was then told he was dead.

Paul would have gone to visit Remy if he had known he was ill. Many people were treated like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and covered in ****! Mao and I talked about this while Remy was still alive.

The problem is that the only time people would call each other was to promote seminars and camps they were hosting. I remember that MAO was shocked once when I called him. He asked me "What was up?" I said "Nothing, just called to say hello." and he was shocked. Prior to that he thought he was the only one to do that.

Besides Mao & myself, none of Remy's students would call to just shoot the breeze. Unfortunately, this is STILL the problem with most Modern Arnis people ( not all ). This is a kick in the balls to most of the people who were loyal to Remy and were left in the dark.

I won't be able to respond for a couple of days. I am leaving early in the morning for Datu Ric Journales wedding. I hope everyone has a safe weekend, and one more shameless plug....the camp is one week from today!!

[Rich Parsons]

Hi to all,

Thanks to Paul for the post :asian:

I want to agree and disagree, and what a better
place then a friendly forum. :cool:

First a quick history - I started back in the mid
80's. All my instructors started in the late 70's
or early 80's. (* with the exception of working
with the Professor at seminars and camps. Then
everyone was a teacher to me. *)

I would have to agree with almost all of what
Paul has said. Even the definitions he has given
to the terms being used are good.

Would I like to see more of Tapi-Tapi, yes I
would.

As for the exclusion, by certain 'camps' - well
before the break of the IMAF camp(s) - I attended
(showed up to) the Michigan Summer Camp. Both the
leaders talked with me.

Many of the things I was 'TOLD', were not what I
wanted to hear. Pay Money and join as a person
and as an instructor, and also join as a school,
then we can talk. Your Rank will have to be
re-evaluated by 'me'. Oh By The Way, you bringing
Professor into your club just for your club was
not good enough. You have not traveled with him
and been to many of seminars and camps.

With the exception of a couple of seminars hosts
in South East Michigan, my school was usually not
invited, and asked to leave right after paying
the admission price. If I had a reputation of
breaking heads or hands or being a 'Total' Jerk.
(* I can be a jerk sometimes :p *) I would have
understood. The 'Gatekeepers' term sums this up,
quite well for my experience. Note: No refund was
offered, even after being asked for one.

I was told by the GateKeepers I had no Rank.

Yes I was defensive. :D But, I am human.

Have I found most of the post educational? YES!
Have I found many knowledgeable people on this
site? YES!

Have I found many people with their opinions here?
Yes, and this is good!

Therefore WhoopAss :asian: I respect your right
and privilege to disagree, and to take certain
discussions to private. Yet, I ask you to if
necessary query me in private, so I may also
learn.

Doumo Arigato Gozaimashita :asian:

Rich

(* Everyone has something to teach me even if it
is nothing more than Patience for a person. *)

(* OOOPS - Renegade posted in between my start
and finish ;~) *)

[Mao]

Before this thread degenerates into something ugly, No one was ever MEANT to be excluded. At least not by the IMAF, inc.. There were alot of people who for one reason or another did not hear until late that Remy was ill, or already gone. There are probably several reasons for this. I won't go there now.
Of course there are many aspects to modern arnis. There are the "traditionals". Remy told me several times that people need to know these BEFORE they learned the more advanced stuff, i.e. tapi tapi among others. In order to learn the way tapi tapi is done, one can learn some pre arranged "sets". This is not to say that tapi tapi is to be done thisway, it's just an avenue to learning. Ultimately, tapi tapi is "where the fight is". It is difficult to fight from the largo range. Medio and corto range is where you'll get most of the "work" done. When practicing the traditionals, you can't just stop when you've done a couple rompida movements, eh? Chances are that you'll end up trading a few shots. Tapi tapi is used to aid in the prevention of this. The opponent has only a couple of options for the most part, take the bait or get hit. This can be debated from now 'till the cows come home. I don't want ot do that. The fact that some people are using tapi tapi as their "niche" is not wrong. Some use the knife, some use empty hand. Just as Remy use to do, some will "play to the crowd" to keep things interesting for the seminar participant. It is up to the "home" instrucors to teach most of the details. There isn't enough time in a seminar setting to get all the details for each type of movement.
As for some people not knowing about the Prof. until after his passing, this is hard. There were so many students of the Prof. that it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible to notify everyone. Besides that, many of us were more concerned about spending time with Remy since time was in such short supply. Now we can either cry in our soup about what's gone before or we can move forward and continue to train, TOGETHER, in brotherhood like the Prof. wanted us to. Ther will certainly be different groups. So what. There will be differing opinions. So what. We should just do our work. It is an awfully stiff person that can't get along in a group and ecxchange ideas. No one is king. It is a good idea to get more than one perspective from knowledgable people in order to form an educated opinion. Otherwise the view is slanted.
This post is long enough.
Lets be informed. Lets train together. Lets be quiet more often and listen.

[Brian Johns]

I think what Paul is referring to is that if you weren't in the fold at the end, you were excluded from much of the information. In Paul's case, he was planning to see Remy at a seminar and was then told he was dead.

Paul would have gone to visit Remy if he had known he was ill. Many people were treated like mushrooms. Kept in the dark and covered in ****! Mao and I talked about this while Remy was still alive.



It should be noted that there was a press release on the IMAF (and written by Dr. Schea) website in December of 2000 which detailed Professor's illness and his surgery. So the information was out there in public via the website several months before Professor's death. There was no attempt to exclude anyone. The information was on the website.

Perhaps the news of Professor's illness and death was not shared as much as it should have been. However, like I said, the information was on the IMAF website.

Lastly, if I recall correctly, a message was posted on the Escrima Digest within an hour of Professor's death. If I recall correctly, this post was done by Datu Hartman who was kind enough to share the information on the Escrima Digest and on the WMAA website. The notice of Professor's death was posted within a day or two on the IMAF website as well. So, again, the information was public.

So I have to agree with Mao's statement that:


No one was ever MEANT to be excluded. At least not by the IMAF, inc.. There were alot of people who for one reason or another did not hear until late that Remy was ill, or already gone. There are probably several reasons for this.

Take care.

[arnisador]

I have to agree with Paul about the importance and relevance of tapi-tapi. I see three major themes of the Professor's teachings on techniques: The "it's all the same" principle, the flow, and the counter-for-counter principle. I see him emphasizing different things at different points of his career but I do not see it as a logical progression leading up to the pinnacle, tapi-tapi, in an All Roads Lead to Rome manner. They are three core ideas of Modern Arnis in my opinion. For me, the big thing about tapi-tapi is how it trains the live hand to be so much more than just a "checking" hand--but this is an idea that was stressed prior to the introduction of tapi-tapi into the curriculum.

[SlimBobVin]

I think there is some sense of bitterness in this thread.
Paul is talking about the people we have all witnessed on occasion. The person who, while highly ranked in the art, chose to focus on things besides serious training at seminars in the recent past. The type of people who were not very kind to other people because they did not particularly care for that student's instructor or background or whatever. The kind of person who talked down to lower ranked students. The type of person who tried to use his/her influence to either boost their own ego or stand as an affront to others.

I beleive the acts of these Gatekeepers by no means tells us their understanding of the art, but instead, shows their lack of understanding of the personal relationship and love the professor had with each of his students.
Professor accepted everyone....even those who may have wronged them in the past.

The rhetoric and semantics is just that. So one person choses to focus on this drill and another person calls something by a different name. I never saw two people do empty hand form 5 the same way----Its the same thing. All of the people in this disscussion have had the opportunity to see what professor had in mind for his art. I don't believe it is a great secret one organization is keeping from the others. We all know the flow, we know the drills....most of all we know what professor stood for. There is no need to have secret emails or be bitter about any of this. There is definately no need for snide remarks.
The point to all of this is....if we say "don't train with the gatekeepers until they stop being gatekeepers" we are cutting of our noses to spite or face. People in other arts are looking at all of this right now and thinking less of our art.

WE ARE TURNING PEOPLE OFF.

Bottom line---Don't gatekeep--- ok lesson learned. Let's fix this attitude problem. Maybe its as simple as the phone call to say hello that Mao and Renegade give. Maybe its not. The truth is we all make mistakes and mistakes can be forgiven and reconciled. We should all live to accomplish this for our art and our professor.

[Dan Anderson]

Hi Folks,
Some comments before I shuffle off to Buffalo,

Whoopass - Tapi Tapi IS a drill, one of several which teach the counter the counter concept. The flow is not just the ability to move from one technique to another. Tapi tapi IS NOT
senior to the flow. The flow, in Modern Arnis, is everwhere. Prof. Presas went over this with me many, many times. Tapi tapi, the drill, is exactly just that, whether done right on right or left on right. Once one begins to think out of the box then it expands to a conceptual level and becomes more.

Bloodwood - I totally agree that tapi tapi is just another piece of the puzzle Prof. Presas left us. Folks, one piece of the puzzle is not the entire puzzle.


Mao I agree with you on most parts, especially on this post not getting ugly and let's just train together, no one is king. The king has passed and let's hope that the many crown princes get along.

Paul It sounds like the gatekeepers are the MOTTS, in your view. If so just say so. I haven't found so much a superior snot-ball attitude in them as I have a real unwillingness to communicate and that can be taken as attitude. Personally, I feel they are in a type of a no-win situation - damned if they do and damned if they don't sort of thing. They were with RP at the last (along with Tim Hartman), were given the reins of IMAF and now have to carry on in the face of all the stuff which is occurring in the total heirarchy of Modern Arnis (other organizations, prior senior students and the like). Remy Presas is a tough act to follow without him passing away on us to add to it.

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis
:wink2:

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Hi Folks,
Some comments before I shuffle off to Buffalo,

. . .

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.

Yours,
Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis
:wink2:

Dan,

I would be more than willing to talk over this
and other topics over a cold one in Buffalo.:asian:

As to the cross pair of canes, I would also be
willing to take any lessons you would be willing
to give.:)

Have a nice day and see you and everyone else in
Buffalo.:cool:

Rich

[Mao]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Tapi tapi, the drill, is exactly just that, whether done right on right or left on right. Once one begins to think out of the box then it expands to a conceptual level and becomes more.

This has been said. By me for one. We are saying the same thing. Tapi tapi is more than a drill. You can treat it like a drill if you want to, but your not getting the whole point if you do.
Another point that I made earlier was that people are going to have differing opinions according to what Remy had said to them and according to their level. Let's move on.

[Brian Johns]

Anyway, I'm willing to discuss any of this and anything else (except why the Portland Trailblazers choke in the playoffs) over a cold one or across a pair of canes. See y'all in Buffalo.



Dan,

Having been a lifelong fan of the Cleveland Indians, Browns and Cavaliers, I know the feeling of seeing your own team choke over and over and over. You may want to drink more than a few cold ones to help cope with the yearly disappointments.:cheers:


WOOOOOO!!!!

[bscastro]

Having been a lifelong fan of the Cleveland Indians, Browns and Cavaliers, I know the feeling of seeing your own team choke over and over and over.

Don't mean to interrupt the discussion, but as a former Clevelander, I have to sympathize. Okay, that's all.

Bryan :)

[Mao]

I am from N.Y. originally but spent most of my formative years in Cleveland. Well, actually Olmsted Falls which is a western Suburb. Many great memories. I still have family there and visit often.

[Dan Anderson]

Whoopass and bscastro -
Going way off the thread but did you see the Blazers blow a lead with 2.9 seconds to go and let Kobe and Robert Horry sink 2 three pointers to win the game?!?:cuss:
That's nearly as bad as (insert something here concerning Jeff Delaney)!
Buffalo bound for a couple of cold ones.
Dan

[Cruentus]

Hello, Everyone...

Time to clear the air! :fart:

Whoop: First of all, WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!:D

O.K., now second: I'm glad to hear your response. You describe Tapi-Tapi as a 'concept' rather then a drill, which is fine. You make the distinction between the 'drill' and 'concept'; you describe the concept of Tapi-Tapi in a similar manner that I describe 'flow.' In other words...


Nowadays, many of his students use the words "Tapi-Tapi" in the same way that I, or others, use "The Flow." It is only a matter of rhetoric.

I know your distinction between flow and Tapi-Tapi is a little bit different then mine, but I think that between us it may just be a matter of rhetoric. "It's all da same!" ;) I think that we both essentially have the same concept, even if we chose to explain it differently.

About MOTTS, and how they fit in. Just keep reading, and I'll explain.

Thanks for your reply, though.:cool:

Renegade: "You got it baby!" See you in 5 days!!!!!!! WOO!

Dan Anderson: First of all.....:asian:

First: I just wanted to say hi! You probably wouldn't remember me because the last time I saw you was in 1995, at a seminar w/ you and Prof. in Michigan, hosted by Jay Spiro. I was impressed with your teaching style, and the info/technique that you had to offer. It was informative and fun!! You seem to know a lot about Modern Arnis. In general, though, I feel that your an all around accomplished and knowledgable individual. I really value your opinions. I look foward to seeing you in Buffalo, checking out your book, and chattin' over some Beers! :cool:

Now, lets get down to business...

You said this:

Paul It sounds like the gatekeepers are the MOTTS, in your view. If so just say so. I haven't found so much a superior snot-ball attitude in them as I have a real unwillingness to communicate and that can be taken as attitude.

Dang, man! :eek:
I'm not sure what you ment exactly by that, but I sure hope you don't think that I have a 'superior snot-ball attitude' by not properly communicating. So, I had better clarify where I think the MOTTS fit in to all of this.

I did not mean for the Gatekeepers to mean the MOTTS, specifically. Now do I think that SOME members of the MOTTS are Gatekeepers, though? You had better believe it! There are some MOTTS that I still think are cool, though, as far as I remember (given that's it's been over a year that I have talked to them), and I look foward to training or at least meeting up w/ them in the future.

That doesn't matter, though. SlimBobVin got it right, for the most part:

"Paul is talking about the people we have all witnessed on occasion. The person who, while highly ranked in the art, chose to focus on things besides serious training at seminars in the recent past. The type of people who were not very kind to other people because they did not particularly care for that student's instructor or background or whatever. The kind of person who talked down to lower ranked students. The type of person who tried to use his/her influence to either boost their own ego or stand as an affront to others."

One thing that he left out was the word 'exclude' because gatekeepers try to exclude others.

I left the definition of "Gatekeepers" broad for a reason. I don't want to finger-point. Not at the MOTTS, or anyone. It's to easy to place blame on others. I want everyone, from the most experienced to the least, to take their own inventory. First, one needs to evaluate oneself to make sure that they aren't 'gatekeeperish.' And if someone has chosen one of Professors students as their teacher, then they need to take personal evaluation of their own teacher, and decide whether or not they are training under someone who is always learning, or w/ someone who thinks that they are the end-all.

I just wanted people to take their own inventory. Even though I am angry about certian things, I'm not the kind of guy who fingerpoints, or outright acts like an @$$hole. A goof, or an idiot, maybe, but NOT an @$$hole! :p

Thanks for the reply; I hope you get this before I see you in Buffalo!

MAO: How's it goin? I just wanted to address what you said:

"No one was ever meant to be excluded..."

Sure, no one sat down and said, "This person, this person, and this person will be excluded, this person won't be...." to play favorites. I didn't point fingers at any-one person, once again. But, let me tell you a little about what happend to me, and you can judge for yourself.

I went to Summer camp 00,' just to visit. I Hung out, Tapi-Tapi-ed w/ professor for a few minutes (basically so he could kick my butt a few times for good measure), and got thrown on the board against my will. Professor had talked to me, however, about testing next camp for rank again, and travelling and doing seminars the up-and-coming year. I told him that it would be difficult for me to see him til' next summer camp, on account that I was finishing up school. The reality was I didn't really have the $$, either. He seemed cool with that.

As the year progressed, I had heard that he had gotten hospitalized, and had undergone surgury Winter 01'. The impression from the message that I had got was that he was going to pull through. I think that even those close to him believed this in Winter 01'. He has gotten sick before, and he has always pulled through. To me, he always seemed so strong, despite whatever ailements he had. I just never thought he would pass away this soon.

Things progressed, and I graduated College. I get a flier for summer camp 01', with no detailed progress on professor, just that he wasn't going to be there. I was under the impression, still, that he would pull through. I was broke (the story of my life) with a degree; but no job yet with it. I wasn't going to kill myself to pay $400 to go to a camp that Professor wasn't going to be at. No offense, I just didn't have the cash. Instead worked on my resume,' worked construction to get as much $ together that I could, and I prepared for fall camp, or to take a trip to visit Prof. if he wasn't going to be there.

Then, he died. I was ready to go see him, and he died. When was I told? Well after his body was buried in the Philipines. I didn't even know he was on his death bed, and now he is gone. He would have liked to have seen me and my Bro. one last time, and we sure as hell would have liked to have seen him. One has to ask why I wasn't notified. It's not like I just got my Lakan 8 years ago and dropped out, or something like that; I had the man over my house, and I hosted a seminar for him just over a year before. I was a member of the Association. So...Why?

Here is why, or so I think:

If someone close to me was on there death bed, and I had control over there estate, or business, for instance, my prorities would be to spend time w/ that person for sure, but to make sure that all of the people that where close to him knew the situation. It would be my duty.

The same duty was imposed, whether they were ready for it or not, on certian individuals. Posting something on a website, or a blirb in a Martial Arts Magazine IS NOT ENOUGH. As Renegade said, those who were out of the loop were mushroomed. Something should have been mailed out to all old IMAF members, and to all of the people who had recieved a Black Blet from Professor at the very least!

No one took the initiative. Hell, if I would have known, my hiny would have gotton on the phone, at the very least

Maybe people where too broken up, or just didn't really know what to do. Or maybe certain people were too concerned with hogging time, or trying to obtain or maintain status before the man died. Maybe certain people didn't want everyone to know. I don't profess to know all the answers, and I think that the answers will vary per individual. All I know is that I was excluded. I got the puno of the corto baston, if you know what I mean, and I wasn't the only one. And for that, SOMEONE owes me and others an f-in apology.

Now, please understand that I'm not getting on an open web-talk to fingerpoint. I'm not going to place blame on any org., IMAF inc. or others, either. I also don't hate anyone. I will NOT agree, however, that no one meant to exclude others. I think that is exactly what certian individuals had meant to do, whether openly or inadvertantly.

"We can either cry in our soup, or move forward and train..."
I have definatily moved foward to train, and my attention is put on training, and uniting with others. The 'gatekeeper' subject is me addressing something that has been a problem for sometime, and that may always be a problem. I just feel that the points I made when opening this thread needed to be made. I WAS NOT kicking a dead horse over what had happend to me.

So, training and uniting is my top priority, not grudge holding. Yet, even still; you can't blame me for being pissed off about what happend. There is nothing anyone can do to give me my time back.

Thanks for your input, though. I do look forward to getting together w/ you soon!
:)

EVERYONE: The purpose of me starting this thread to begin with was to get people to take their own inventory, and to address those that exclude others. Yet, as MAO put it so well, "...let's continue to train, together, in brotherhood..."

AMEN! I hope to train with all of you soon, in brotherhood. :asian:

[Mao]

There were alot of people who didn't know till late in the game, or till the game was over. I can only think of one individual whose motives were less than honorable. Most were doing what Remy had asked them to. I was the one who brought up another person to the Prof. to try to get the two in close contact. And this person has been around a LONG time. In the first stages, Remy didn't want people to know, or worry. Then , later, he didn't really want to deal with the baggage that some people would bring with them. As to why you specifically were not "notified", I don't have an answer. I do know at one point that the Prof. wanted a press release published. This is how "the masses" were being told. I personally didn't get in touch with you. I am sorry for that. I wasn't thinking about everyone else that may need to know. It was not intentional. Have you tried to contact the guilty parties to tell them how you feel. There would be several guilty parties in more than one organization. I can tell you that there was a point in time when everyone involved, doctors, nurses, family included were trying to keep visitation, including phone calls, to a minimum in order to not stress Remy. Your right, you should have been told. As has been said, though, I think the press release was an effort to acomplish this.
I hope we can get together soon to train, and talk. I always liked working with you and Norotious Nate. Please say hi to him for me.
till later,
Dan :)

[modarnis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PAUL

<<One has to ask why I wasn't notified. >>

Sorry that you are taking this so personally Paul. In your last post you describe receiving flyers for camps and other things that would lead me to believe you are "somewhat in the loop". At least 6 months prior to the Professor's death, the Modernarnis.com website (The one which is for all intent and purpose the IMAF Delaney site) had contact info for the Professor, including his wife's phone number in B.C.

If one wanted to be in the flow of information, little or no effort would put them in touch with numerous people who had up to the minute reports.

I received word of the Professor's death from 6 separate sources, within 8 hours. 5 of those sources were mailing lists from seminars/camps I had attended.

Info on the major memorial services in Chicago, Philadelphia, and the Philipines was updated daily on Modernarnis.com.

All of us were saddened by the Professor's death. Many of us had him as guests in our homes and schools or hosted repeat seminars with him.

I think your post was rather selfish and belittles the loss hundreds if not thousands of people suffered when this great man died

[Brian Johns]

Going way off the thread but did you see the Blazers blow a lead with 2.9 seconds to go and let Kobe and Robert Horry sink 2 three pointers to win the game?!?
That's nearly as bad as (insert something here concerning Jeff Delaney)!
Buffalo bound for a couple of cold ones.

Ooooohhh, I know the hurt. I have to really empathize with you and the Portland fans on this one. Having suffered from the Cleveland Browns' meltdowns in the AFC Championship games in the 1980s (at the hands of the Raiders and twice against the Denver Broncos, including that infamous "Drive" by Elway), the last second shots by Michael Jordan to eliminate the Cleveland Cavaliers from the playoffs in the late 80's and early '90's and the losses by the Indians in the 1995 and 1997 World Series. Losing the 1997 World Series to the Florida Marlins really really hurt. Bottom of the ninth, the Tribe is up 2-1 and two outs away from the first World Series title since 1948 and they blow it. That hurt big time.

So I know what it's like. :(

[Bob Hubbard]

The Buffalo Bills.

Need I say more? :)

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by modarnis

[QUOTE]

Sorry that you are taking this so personally Paul. In your last post you describe receiving flyers for camps and other things that would lead me to believe you are "somewhat in the loop". At least 6 months prior to the Professor's death, the Modernarnis.com website (The one which is for all intent and purpose the IMAF Delaney site) had contact info for the Professor, including his wife's phone number in B.C.

If one wanted to be in the flow of information, little or no effort would put them in touch with numerous people who had up to the minute reports.

I received word of the Professor's death from 6 separate sources, within 8 hours. 5 of those sources were mailing lists from seminars/camps I had attended.

The problem here is that we who have computors assume that everyone does! About 50% of the US have them in thier homes. As far as the website goes, Remy never promoted it. You would never hear Remy say "If you want more info check out my site". Many Modern Arnis people are not on the net. I think that it would have been easy for the IMAF to make up a postcard with contact info to let everyone know. If you can send out flyers for camp, why not ones to help inform our Modern Arnis family on such a great loss?



All of us were saddened by the Professor's death. Many of us had him as guests in our homes and schools or hosted repeat seminars with him.

Paul is one of these people. I have been with Remy in Paul's home. Paul hosted Remy for seminars. Remy liked Paul more than one of his many students.

[Mao]

I initially heard about the Prof. in a strange way. Sounds wierd but I was mowing the lawn and felt a "disturbance in the force" and couldn't get Remy outta my mind. I called a friend in Chicago who new that there was something going on but didn't know what. I called Tim Hartman who filled me in up to that point. I then made phone calls to specific people and then went to Victoria the first time. This is a digest version but basically how it went. This was before the press release or anything else.
When I asked who else knew, I was told that at that point Remy didn't everybody knowing due to the worry factor and the stress that all the phone calls and visitors would bring. Still, some people knew. Dr. Shea, Tim, David Hoffman, Myself and some others. Any of us could have begun making phone calls to everyone we knew, but didn't. Again, there were alot of people who felt close to Remy that didn't know at that point. It was not a personal thing. I even called another person who I am friends with and who was very close to Remy who wouldn't openly tell me anything because he was asked not to talk openly yet. I was a bit surprised but understood that he was doing what he was asked. I think that to take all this personally, given that it was such a stressful time with alot of matters to take care of, would be a bit near sighted. I certainly do not mean to belittle Pauls feelings. He is entitled to feel the way he does. Paul, I hope that it doesn't color the way you feel about certain people. I know you say that it does not, but who do you want an apology from? I could fell the same way about certain people but it would not be edifying and could stunt my growth. It is a mature attitude that you have in saying that you would still like to train with everyone. We were all hurt by the whole situation surrounding Remys illness and passing. It will take time to heal. You're a good man, Paul. I hope to see you soon.

mao

[Roland]

Paul, you forgot one group, what I call the
"Bizarro Professor Clones".
These are the guys who act like they can teach, but know they are really not able to do so. To compensate, they go around imitating Profesoor, word for word, action for action, and, worst of all, try to give themseleves a bad Filipino accent!!!
And I do not mean the ones who 'move' like Professor because they are pretty good, or the ones who like to imitate Professor's voice out of fun and love.
These are the ones who are so tall that Profeessor may have had to stand on tippy toes sometimes to demonstrate a 'particular' technique, so now, when they teach it, they do so too. Even if they are tall enough that would never need to reach so high.
Or those who really do not understand a technique, and could not explain it if their life depended on it, so say things like, "Can you do this..., good, then do this!" When we all know that they at least graduated with a North Amercain Highschool diploma, and we have heard them speak their point of view numerous time, in English, to know that they should know better. I think they do this to try to get people moving, otherwise they might have to admit that they can not explain it better.
How about those ones who, after they finish a technique, they stand there and try to shake their stick, or their shoulders in a vibrating motion, to try and create the illusion that they are moving real fast!?! Come on, get real!
I think these people imagine they are paying tribute to the Professor, when I think they are just ruining his memory!
I feel a little sorry for them, maybe they do not know better.
But it still makes me ill!

:soapbox:

[Bob Hubbard]

another point to keep in mind. I've been told by several people that they wouldn't believe it until they read it in BlackBelt or similar publications. That the web -must- be wrong.

Renegades right, the majority of MA folks I know are just not PC people, or likely to surf on a regular basis. Sure the info was out there, but if you weren't checking regularly, you just didn't find it.

For many reasons, information was not broadly released. Person A had an agenda, so they kept it close. Person B was concerned, so they kept quiet. Person C thought Person D was handling the phone calls. Person D just wanted a chance to say good by, and didn't even think about the phone, or the web Person E was too heartbroken from the loss to function. Persons F-H were wondering why everyone got quiet lately.... etc etc etc.

Remy was a great man, but his death didn't make the 6 o'Clock news. The local papers didn't put the notice on page 1 (or any pages really). The majority of us found out when it was too late.

Tim sent out notices and it was on his web site. JD had the notices on his. It was mentioned in ED and there was a short couple of threads on RMA about it, and I believe Sandor had it on his site too, but thats really all I saw.

Sadly, for -many- reasons, people were left out of things. Many are angry about the feeling of exclusion. Personally, I don't think there were many purposeful exclusions. Rather, a communications breakdown that hopefully we can avoid in the future.

School owners, Organization leaders hold the responsibility to get information out to people. If you would just take 5 minutes at the end of each class to update your people on the big picture, post a quarterly news-sheet on your school BB, and mail a few 'keeping in touch' newsletters each year, we would all benifit from a tighter sence of brotherhood in the arts.

Remy is gone, but the memories, and the gifts he left behind should be shared in the spirit he did.

Lets all just put the past behind us, and share and train together. I think thats the best way we can all honor GM's memory.

Peace.
:asian:

[Cruentus]

Come on, guy's....the Lions:p

Roland: Bizarro Professor Clones!? Isn't that the name of the new Star Wars movie? :D

Modarnis: Unfortunatily, you have missed the point of this entire thread. :(

Renegade: Thank you. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Oh, and 1 more thing.....

3 day's til camp! WOOOOOOOOOO!

MAO: I don't want anyone to feel guilty for not personally calling me. I just thought that a mailing, or even a funeral card, or something would have been nice. You did help to clarify a few things. Thank you. It does make me feel better. I know that there are a lot of good people out there, and I'm not holding a grudge TOWARDS anyone. You know me, and I think that you know that I'm not going to let what happend get in the way of furthering the art, or my own personal growth.

I'm not letting what happend alone color my feelings towards certain individuals, however, I can't deny the fact that I do have negative feelings towards some individuals. These negative feelings, however, are not based on what happend to me regarding Prof. death, and now I'm trying to place blame. These negative feelings have been compiled over years of being around them, training with them, and THEN watching the way they have been conductiong themselves over the past few months. I think that these people that I'm thinking of basically used Professor to everyone else's detriment, and they owe EVERYONE an apology, not just me.

I'm not really going to sweat that, though. If I ran into any one of these people today, though, I'd be as cool with them as I could be. And no, not because I'm a fake bastard, but because I'm the kind of person who will always give someone the benifit of the doubt, or a second chance.

So, basically, it's all cool. :cool: I'm moving on, as I have been, and I'll peice it all together as I go along.

Speaking of training, I have to meet my Girlfriend's (of 6 mo.) family for the 1st time way out West Michigan THE SAME WEEK AS YOUR SEMINAR. I already promised. If I can get out of it somehow w/o breaking my promise, I'll let you know.

Until next time........:jedi1:

Everyone: I didn't start this thread so I could cry over my woes. :wah: Really. I started it because I wanted everyone to THINK! To take inventory on themselves, and what's been going on around them. If people can't take a good look at themselves, and put their baggage and ego's in the garbage, then people will never be able to move foward.

So I'm ready to move foward. I hope you all are to....:)

[Mao]

well said. I hope we get to play soon.
mao

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Tapi tapi, the drill, is exactly just that, whether done right on right or left on right. Once one begins to think out of the box then it expands to a conceptual level and becomes more.

You are abspolutely correct Dan, too many people fail to think outside of the box; they see the drills, but not the applications that are possible. Some see the applications, but only those stressed by Remy and anything else is heresay or "wrong".

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mao

This has been said. By me for one. We are saying the same thing. Tapi tapi is more than a drill. You can treat it like a drill if you want to, but your not getting the whole point if you do.
Another point that I made earlier was that people are going to have differing opinions according to what Remy had said to them and according to their level. Let's move on.

Mao, you have nailed a significant problem right through the middle of the target! A signicant number of people "...have differing opinions according to what Remy had said to them...".

Remy said a lot of things to different people and he also said different things to the same person(s) depending on time, place and circumstances. In short Remy lacked consistency in his comments. There is very little that I will discount, out of hand, when I am told that Remy said this or that. I have witnessed changes in statements by Remy. I have witnessed him creating titles on the spur of the moment and I have seen/heard him disavow earlier statements, that I KNOW that he made.

Dan Anderson, wrote:

Paul It sounds like the gatekeepers are the MOTTS, in your view. If so just say so. I haven't found so much a superior snot-ball attitude in them as I have a real unwillingness to communicate and that can be taken as attitude. Personally, I feel they are in a type of a no-win situation - damned if they do and damned if they don't sort of thing. They were with RP at the last (along with Tim Hartman), were given the reins of IMAF and now have to carry on in the face of all the stuff which is occurring in the total heirarchy of Modern Arnis (other organizations, prior senior students and the like). Remy Presas is a tough act to follow without him passing away on us to add to it. [end of quote]

The MOTTs and Delaney have created some problems for themselves as has Tim Hartman. They will work through them as best they can, but failure to communicate only adds fuel to this firestorm of charge and countercharge. None of these groups have been very open to information and ideas from outside of 'their own select circle of friends'.

If people want to move above and beyond this current mess, then they need to open the lines of communications and STOP using Remy statements as their compass. In the best of times he was not consistant in his statements; now all we have is what he told us before he passed away. If people took the time to talk with one another and compare the statements, most would realize that this is very bad case of the students engaging in "martial arts organizational fraticide". In reality it is a waste of everyone's time and energy!

People need to get on with their martial organizational lives. If someone is too closed minded to invite you to do a seminar or participate as an instructor at a camp, get over it! Do not spend your time and money with them! Go where people are ready to welcome and work cooperatively with you!

Belive me people, that is life outside of the IMAF, the MOTTs and WMAA. This is not an insult, it is a fact of life. People can create whatever titles, organizations and documents that they wish, but the bottom line comes back to this:

Can you do the art, Do you have good solid basics, Do you move and shift away from the on-coming weapon, Do you know how to adapt and 'translate' the techniques to fit the new situation, Can you move beyond the drills, Do you see the art as a living expression of yourself, Can you make the art 'flow' with precision? Look inward at yourself before looking outward and criticizing others.

I enjoyed the Buffalo Camp this past weekend. I met some new people and renewed a couple of older contacts from my days in the IMAF under Remy. Tim is to commended for the effort and stepping outside of his own organizatin and small circle of friends to bring in different instructors. The significant question that has to be asked and answered by both the Delaney Group and the MOTTs, is quite simple - are they open to doing the same kind of thing - working beyond their immediate comfort zone of what Remy said and taught? As Dan Anderson, noted in a post regarding another thread, the above mentioned groups do not seem to be open to independents!

The answers to the questions above will be the real indicator of whether or not these folks are working within a living art or they are working to cast everything in stone so that art becomes an instrument of *orthodoxy*.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Tapps]

Well said Dr. B !!!

I thought one of the highlights of the WMAA camp was the round table discussion. It offered a lot of input from some very different people who shared the professor as a bond.

[Celadora]

From reading this thread from the beginning, I have no ¨respectful disagreeing¨ but some major problems with what has been said. I am enraged by what I am reading.

It sounds to me like Paul is a foreman of Tim Hartman. Since his profile states his alignment with the WMAA and instructorship of the WMAA in Michigan, I presume my assumption is correct. However to my confusion, neither Michigan school nor instructor is listed on the WMAA website. Ironically, all the comments he has made which could and have been interpreted as bashing of the MOTTS have only served to give Mr. Hartman a change of topic.

Conveniently Mr. Hartman announced how ¨He’s going to step in here¨ and changed this thread from a topic of the hierarchy of tapi-tapi instruction to the topic of communication problems instead. Ok then, if we are going to change the topic of the thread, let’s change the thread.

It’s a shame one cannot state a view differing the popular opinion of the WMAA coalition on this forum without being ganged up upon, as I probably will be as soon as I release this post.

Paul took an intelligent post by Modarnis and simply shot it down by saying it is missing the point when he/she counters the communication problems. To my reading of these posts together, the points made by Modarnis seem very relevant. Ironically Paul doesn’t counter as “missing the point of the entire thread” all the sports banter which truly has no place here, just the comments that, can we believe, disagree with his.

Renegade: ¨Besides MAO and myself, none of Remy´s students would call to just shoot the breeze¨ Are you sure of that? Could anyone else disprove you on that? I find that hard to believe amidst all the close friendships that have grown out of training and fellowship in Modern Arnis over the years.

I was notified within 36 hours after the Professor fell sick in Germany, and in person, not by e-mail. I was notified of his death within 12 hours by telephone as well. Both of these communications, as well as updates whenever they came through during his 9 months of sickness, were from the Modern Arnis instructor I was then training under. So why, Paul, didn’t Mr. Hartman call you?

You also state that you believe some of the MOTTS are still good people but then are not for sure ¨given that it’s been over a year since I’ve talked to them. ¨ Whose fault is that? Is no one able to accept mutual blame here?

¨To take inventory on themselves, and what's been going on around them,” requests Paul. Please follow your own advice, Paul. What is your agenda here? You wrote the first post knowing full well that your words would be perceived as attacks. Then Renegade took the post and changed it to another topic that again has caused yet more attacks and controversy. No one can argue the fact that the Professor taught tapi-tapi in what he thought was the best way to communicate his ideas. Nor can anyone argue that the Professor personally installed the majority of the players in the hierarchy of Modern Arnis leadership. If one wants to debate the relevance of tapi-tapi in this “friendly” forum, keep it to that without the personal attacks on the leaders one might not like.

Yes I’m bitter too. I wish I had a group I trusted to train under, one that doesn’t backbite and bicker, as I currently perceive most of the groups doing.

[Bob Hubbard]

A few points: (I'll let the others who are better qualified address any others)

1- PAUL / WMAA Web Site : I'm the webmaster for the WMAA. I received Pauls info this past weekend at the camp, and have not had a chance to do the updates. It will be up along with the camp photos, etc within the next few days.

2 - Differing opinions - as the Administrator of this site, I welcome -ALL- opinions. Invitations to all major US Modern Arnis groups were sent out repeatedly since our launch. Some came, some didn't, some came later. There are a larger number of WMAA folks here than other groups due mostly to the fact that Tim Hartman is 1 of our biggest promoters. We also have high ranking members from both IMAF groups, MARRPIO and other groups (Datu Hoffman, Datu Knuttel, D. Presas to mention a few). I wish they had more folks here, as no one has the full picture, and only by sharing can we truely see more. If you would like to see more non-WMAA people posting here, please, pass the word and encourage them to sign up and get involved. Personally, I think it would make things a lot more balanced. (yes, I am a WMAA member. That doesn't mean I won't train with the IMAF, MOTT, etc.)

3 - Communication - my understanding is that there were communications issues. 1 of the reasons for this forum is to help everyone keep in touch and stay up to date. Beyond that, I really can't say.

4 - Tapi-Tapi, etc - Please, discuss the techniques and concepts of the art. This forum (meaning the Modern Arnis section) could use a good, in depth look at what makes up MA, its history, influences, and direction.

5 - Sports refs, tangents, etc - it happens. We try to stear things, but ultimately, its the responsibility of our members to focus, and not wander. Policing things, and spliting off topics every time they branch would be a full time job. Sometimes, we try to interject a little humor to allow for a cooling of heads when things turn hot (like this one).


Your points are very valid. Perhaps we should have split this into 2 threads. We as students in this art can bang our heads against the wall, shutting ourselves off from those who can 'fill in the gaps', or we can agree to disagree on some points, yet move beyond that and share that which has been left to us.

Peace
:asian:

Bob Hubbard
Administrator

[Cruentus]

Here we go..:argue: :soapbox:

It's funny how one can drive a point home so well, yet it is missed by some who REFUSE TO LISTEN!

Celadora; you, like Modarnis, HAVE COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT! :rolleyes:

So, of course, I'm going to "shoot down your post" as you call it. And given your tone, what'd ya expect?

So, once again, I'll illustrate my points and intentions CLEARLY, so that anyone with an IQ above 65 will be able to understand.

Here we go:

a). I wanted to trace the development of Tapi-Tapi as I have seen, explain how it connects with the 'Flow' concept, and how it all fits together with Modern Arnis.

b). I wanted to discuss Practitioners who's training was concentrated on before 1990, and pre-Tapi-Tapi ('old'), practioners who's training concentrated after 1990 ('new'), and practitioners who believe that they, and only they and their group have the entire picture of Modern Arnis, and that one can only see the entire picture of Professors art through them ('gatekeepers'). I wanted to discuss the relationship between these factions's, and how the relationship effects the progression of Modern Arnis.

C). My intention overall: To spark some ideas so that people can take personal inventory, so that they may grow. The hope is that we will all eventually grow together, so that we may all someday unite, despite different affiliations, organizations, and opinions.

There, now was that so hard? :rolleyes:
You see the original thread had absolutely NOTHING to do with me taking communication barriers too personally, or MOTTS, WMAA, or anything that you and Modarnis had mentioned, therefore it IS safe to say that both of you have missed the point of this entire thread.

Now I’ll address some other points that you have mentioned.

1. First, here is my relationship with Tim Hartman. When I was 15 and went to my 1st summer camp at Michigan State, he was there. My teacher at the time, Ted Redish, was a black belt under Professor, and friends with Tim. All throughout my training Tim had been there for me, and helped me out. He helped me to get better. Plus, over the years we’ve hung out and had a good time at the seminars and camps. I can’t say the same about some of the other higher ranked students. Plus Tim was a black belt when I started going to camps; therefore I always viewed him as a teacher. Most of the MOTTS where not black belts when I started; I’ve always viewed them as students who were my senior. Ted got preoccupied and stopped teaching when I was 17. So, I began running my own training sessions just to have people to train with, but Professor became my primary teacher. After he had passed away the natural progression of things was for me to join up with Tim. I had always viewed him as a teacher to me, unlike the others.

My relationship with the WMAA is fairly new. Until recently, I wasn’t really considered one of ‘Tim’s guys’. My info will be up on the WMAA site fairly soon, as Kaith explained. I happened to like what Tim is trying to do with the WMAA, and I’m proud to be a part of it. This doesn’t mean that I’m not friends with and willing to train with others from other orgs. I consider Whoopass and Mao friends, who are on this forum, for instance.

Oh, for the record: Tim did try to call me, by the way, but wasn’t able to get a hold of me. Pretty big of him considering I wasn’t officially his student then, I was on the old IMAF mailing list (where all of my new contact info was) and not on his. All of this, plus considering that he was pretty busy fighting to see his own teacher himself, while certain people tried to keep him away. Overall, I’d say he tried his best.

2. In regards to what Tim had said: The ‘communication barrier’ subject is completely related to the thread, as was everything else he had said. You see, would there be this barrier if people weren’t trying to ‘gatekeep’? Hmmmmm?

3. My Communication with MOTTS: Once again, I was Professors student, not theirs. They are my peers. I take mutual blame for not keeping in touch with them, but I really didn’t have to. They weren’t my teachers. I kinda assumed that whoever took over the old IMAF would have made sure that everyone knew what was going on. They didn’t. Whoops-e-daisy! Guess that because I wasn’t online during that period that I get screwed. Oh well, right? If you need clarification on the ‘communication argument,’ it’s been discussed. Maybe you should READ the other posts.

4. In terms of me ‘Bashing the MOTTS’: Like many other points you’ve made, they’ve been discussed in other posts on this thread. Maybe you should READ them, too.

5. In terms of your whining about WMAA members jumping all over you: Well, why don’t you just cry. :wah: Or, you could realize that this is an open forum for all Orgs., not just WMAA, and everyone is entitled to their opinion.

6. Personal attacks: I never once name dropped, or pointed fingers at anyone, either IMAF groups or MOTTS alike. ‘Gatekeepers’ could be in ANY organization, or independent. You equated the ‘Gatekeepers’ as an attack on the MOTTS, even though I clarified before that attacking individuals or groups wasn’t my intention. So, it is YOU who have equated MOTTS with ‘Gatekeepers’, not me. If that’s your opinion of them, though, then I guess you’re entitled to it.

7. Notification: I’m so glad that you got notification of Professors situation; that you were ‘in the loop’ so to speak. You should feel real special. Maybe you should, like, create a cool title for yourself, such as ‘Grandmaster of people who were in the loop” and go on tour. Just a thought. Or perhaps you could respect the fact that many where kept out of the loop, and were hurt by it.

8. Follow my own advice: If you READ what I’ve said before, I have already. Why don’t you follow yours about “bite back” and “Bickering” ?

Well, that’s it. Yea, I know…I’m kind of an @$$hole in this post. But it doesn’t really matter. Celadora and Modarnis have proven to me their inability to LISTEN to what others are saying, so it doesn’t matter what I say here anyways. It’s not like you’ll actually LISTEN to me anyhow. You both have also not shown me civility, so why should I show you any?

To everyone else; sorry you had to witness my angry ranting.

PAUL

P.S. In terms of the critique about keeping on subject, and all the in between sports talk…. :2xbird: ….and read my signature.

[arnisador]

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

All Modern Arnis groups are welcome in this forum and we have had a number from the WMAA, the IMAF (Dr. Schea's group), the WMAC (from before its inception), the DAV (the German group), and MARPPIO, as well as independents (such as Mr. Anderson).

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,
Firey little beast, aren't you. I can't believe that you wrote such a long post and didn't mention how wonderful I am. Not even once. This shows, to me, a very serious lack forethought and preparation in your thoughts. Now I understand why I never got the jacket.
Dan

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

I can't believe that you wrote such a long post

When I found out that the person riding in the backseat of the car on our way to Applebees this weekend was PAUL from this board, the first thing I said was "You're the guy that wrote that long-winded post!" (Then I went back to cracking on the Canadians.) I see he has no intentions of stopping--they're all going to be long.


and didn't mention how wonderful I am

Since this is a short post, I'll pass comment too. :D

[Celadora]

I am laughing rather than crying, Paul. Your callous words have only served to prove my point more efficiently. Unless of course I cry over the significance of what I read here. What type of impression do you give to yourself and your organization with harsh remarks such as these? What type of leadership do you display by responding in such a manner to what can be interpreted as constructive criticism?

My attacks focus on Paul, but my frustrations come from the current state of Modern Arnis as a whole. As I have stated long before in similar words in other posts, What would the Professor think if he could read what has been written here of his teachings and of the organization he founded?

I never began the idea that Paul was attacking the MOTTS. That connection was first mentioned by WhoopAss in the third post and was continued along the thread. I only reiterated the point that Paul’s statement has been interpreted in such a manner. Don’t shove that blame on me.

I found quite interesting the discussion on tapi-tapi and would love to add my personal sentiments. I as well felt that tapi-tapi is a bit advanced for beginners, and I would often leave camps and seminars feeling overwhelmed. Luckier than most, I had a strong base of training partners and instructors to reinforce the basics outside of camps. However, I trusted that tapi-tapi was the way Professor thought best to teach, and who would know better than he?

As for Gatekeepers, I never saw them. Anyone of greater, equal, or lesser rank than I was a teacher, and advice and instruction were always welcome.

The disgusting parts of this thread are the parts that have been perceived as personal attacks against leaders and what some feel is a lack of communication directly blamed on the leaders. Whether or not Paul intended the post to be an attack, it has clearly been interpreted that way for 3 pages already. Once more I restate, What would the Professor think if he could read this and see what has become of Modern Arnis today?

[Cruentus]

:roflmao:

Yea, yea....I know. I sorta lost it in that last post. Those who know me know I'm nutz-o, but I can usually curb my wacko behavior on a talk forum. I apoligize to all who had to witness my behavior. My points may be valid, but I probably didn't help the situation much. :shrug:

With all my long winded rantings, and I didn't once mention how cool Dan Anderson is. Sorry Dan! I'll be on my way to lansing to wrestle Scott down for his jacket after this post.

Arnisador, I didn't make fun Canadians once yet either! There's a lot of ammo too; like when I stopped at Taco Bell and they where serving cheese fries. Whaaa!?!? That's almost stranger then chedder cheese on apple pie, cinnaman on carrots, or other strange Buffalo foods. I'm not even going to get into the salty bread and roast beef. :barf: :rofl:

Celadora: I really don't have much else to say to you, dude. I know that you want to propigate that your first post was "constructive criticism," but seriously, you can't honestly believe that. You did not constructively critique anything; you blatently attacked me, Tim Hartman, and the WMAA. The funny part of that is you're absolutily not a credable source for your 'points.' You don't even know me, what I'm about, or the dynamics of my relationships with the Modern Arnis world. So, I attacked back. Maybe that wasn't the best decision, but what type of reaction did you really expect with your post? The bottom line is that thusfar you have not proven to me yet that you want to openly discuss anything. The only thing that you have shown me is your inability to listen to others, and your intentions to start arguements to attempt to try to make others look bad. So, I refuse to entertain you any longer. Until I see that your willing to openly and peacefully talk (and a childish response to this thread won't prove to me anything), I don't see myself responding to anything else you have to say.

PAUL
:cool:

P.S. The wings lost to St. Louis 6-1! :cuss:

[Dan Anderson]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Celadora

What would the Professor think if he could read what has been written here of his teachings and of the organization he founded?

He would probably say, "Dan, this is not good."

I found quite interesting the discussion on tapi-tapi and would love to add my personal sentiments. I as well felt that tapi-tapi is a bit advanced for beginners,

Hoo wah yes!

However, I trusted that tapi-tapi was the way Professor thought best to teach, and who would know better than he?

No problemo there.

The disgusting parts of this thread are the parts that have been perceived as personal attacks against leaders and what some feel is a lack of communication directly blamed on the leaders.

Sorry, man. It's the leaders who lead or get shot when they don't lead. If they are supposed to lead, they should or get out of the way. The no-communication is an indicator of ability to lead. I am a stickler on communication and the no communication issue on the subject of my teacher's illness is no secret to anyone who has been within earshot of my indelicate voice. You got lucky and were in the loop so perhaps you haven't imagined yourself in the position of hearing that data third or fourthhand.

Once more I restate, What would the Professor think if he could read this and see what has become of Modern Arnis today?

Again, he'd probably say something like, "Oh! Dan! What is this?They are very upset! This is not good. You must talk to them so they will be happy."

That's what my teacher woud have said to me.

Dan Anderson
6th Degree Black Belt
Senior Master Modern Arnis

[Mao]

ALRIGHT ALREADY!
Remy got sick. He assigned various positions. He passed away. It is very sad for us. Now we all know. The playing field is level. Can we move on? So much bickering is not edifying. And it sucks.
Perhaps some of this could be taken to a private arena so that if some one new visits this forum they are not turned off to modern arnis. Dan's right: "This is not good."

mao

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Mao

Can we move on?

I hope so. This thread is now just a he said-she said.

[Roland]

Either that, or get our butts out of our computer chairs and do some real training!

what do you think?!

:soapbox:

[BRAM]

I'm not really qualified to comment on this I guess. I'm not a MOTT nor a Guardian not anything but a student of Modern Arnis..
I remember in the 80's Professor doing single stick sparring..
you know..#1 high low high low #2 buttpunyo striking #3 clearing Payong-Umbrella, #4 butt- punyo sweeping
#5 Slant & umbrella passing...then add a strike to immediate head counter and a counter to the counter..He used to call that counter to counter Tapi Tapi..and it fit inside of single stick sparring..
Then of course we got to do as he did and change up from right to right to left to right..as long as we paid attention...
But always in interview, in class, in seminars..he used to say that having the FLOW was the key..FLOW is what Modern Arnis was about...
He;d show me something show me how it was different from something else then ask me could I see its all the same..
yes it confused me but it forced me to try to see it..
He told me and many people that he personally got the FLOW from the space between Redonda X movement and Sinawali...
yes. I know he may have said something else to others.. I don't want to make that an issue..Justthat I add to the comments of he was into the ability to FLOW.

late 80's and early 90's I remember the Tapi Tapi actually being a single stick sparring drill thatthen the main stay was understanding left to right..and the camps and seminars reflected that..
Bruce Chiu was traveling with Proffesor and doing a lot of Left to right and I was amazed that it was the thing to do.Bruce and I swapped knife drills for his expertice in Tapi Tapi...He was doing it all the time with Professor at least in Florida..But its still what I knew as left to right with a set pattern of trapping..
But the trapping came from Sinawali application , sinawali Boxing Drills and the ability to use the FLOW..

I never knew what a MOTT was till just before the Professor died..
I think its( Tapi Tapi) another way , a part of the era..part of that particular tme that Professor had found to teach FLOW..the ability to go with what happens within the space of action-reaction..
everyone grows and changes....He was changing wih thoe that were with him..He found new ways to expresshimself..its not better or worse than we all did before..

We're all got part of the truth as we are able to see it and express it..
sorry for the long rant..
Its only my opinion and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and I have stuck to the main ORIGINAL thread..


bram

[Dan Anderson]

Mao -
Don't be so crabby. State your point (which you did) but don't be so crabby.

Roland -
Just spent the weekend training. My computer time is late in the evening when everybody is asleep.

Bram -
You just stepped on my toes...ha ha. Just doggin' ya. Good to "hear" you up on this forum. The flow is the way to go, baby.

All of you who missed the Buffalo camp missed tons of good vibes and lots of sweat breakin' and burning sticks smell. We had fun fun fun and daddy didn't take our T-bird away. Hoo wah, can you tell it's late?

Dan :boing1:

[Cruentus]

Bram: It was good to hear from you. That's the kind of stuff I like to hear on this thread, not the 'he said she said' that I made the mistake of involving myself in.

DAN: The beach boys? Oh man...we need to add some different music to your repituior.:D

[Cruentus]

Look, this will be 2 short posts in a row! Whooooooohoooooo!:cool:

[Dan Anderson]

Paul,
My music repertoire muns very deep - check out the addition to my web page and check the list. Actually, I don't think I even own any Beach Boys. King Crimson, Miles Davis and the biggest assortment of progressive rock and jazz/rock - that's a different story. See if you recoignize more than a handful of names.
www.danandersonkarate.com/music
Dan
PS - Keep smilin'

[Mao]

I'm not being crabby. I'm being succinct and to the point. Have you been around this forum for long? This petty stuff is just that, petty. And it sucks. If you think that it is good for the art, then go ahead and continue the "he said, she said" crap. I won't. If you've been around this forum for any length of time you'd know what I mean. Unless that's your style.

mao

[Cruentus]

I heard something about your music selection. It's HUUUUUGE!
I haven't even had time to look through the entire thing yet. I'll definatily get back to you on that.:ubercool:

[Dan Anderson]

Mao,
I have been on this forum long enough to agree with you that the pettiness, etc. should not be there. I also agree with being succinct and to the point. But you have just contradicted yourself and opened yourself up with your last comment, unless that's your style, which comes across as the type of snot-ball comment you rail against. Come on, Dan.

Dan Anderson

[Mao]

I gave what I got. What you posted to me seemed confrontational. I don't want a confrontation, nor will I easily back down from one.

mao

[Guro Harold]

I have refrained from posting on this topic for a while because I had to examine myself first.

Why was this thread and the other threads regarding succession started? Whether well intended or not, most of these threads have dealt with knowledge and power.

So was this the legacy that GM Presas wanted to leave to us? Its only been less than a year and we still have not shown proper respect for his memory.

Here are some of the issues that I have whether they be "Old", "New", or "Gatekeeper":

How many of us visited him when he was sick? God bless all of those who took care of him, not for their own promotion in the art but for the promotion of his health.

How many old/new/gatekeepers went to his funeral in the Philippines? There was only one US student, Lori Harwood, who was there. In spite of 9/11 and being stuck there for three weeks, she was there. Please bear that in mind when you see her and cut her some slack. I heard from the Presas family that the masters in the Philippines were shocked that there were not any top representatives to accompany his body.

How many threads or posts were created to lament that due to our circumstances or the crisis that gripped our country, that as much as we wanted to be at his funeral, we could not?

How many people know what the Presas family had to endure and how much they had to go through in order for the Professor to be buried in his homeland? How many of us know how much Datu Shishiar Inacallo and three of GM Presas' followers in the homeland had to do in order for him to have a burial plot?

How many of looked at MARPPIO out of suspicion instead of reaching out to them out of some mutual respect and loss of their father and our Grandmaster, though their loss will always be greater because he was their father.

How many of us were shocked by the "tribute" that was printed by the "Co-Successor"? How many people who were personally trained by GM Presas wrote rebuttals to state that he was more and contributed more than being a rolling stone?

I can't change the past, nor my past decisions, or letting time, money, or distance get in the way of visiting him. But I can control how I represent his legacy to me and how I represent his art and whether or not I do it with dignity and humility.

[Mao]

That was well stated. I'm sure there are many answers to your thoughts. I agree that much, not all, of what has taken place is related to power, who wants it, who thinks that they have it and the ego's that go with these things. I have not read the tribute you mentioned. I don't visit that site 'cause I don't need the frustation. I am doing what Remy had asked me to do with the people he asked me to do it with. You have, and continue to, represent yourself and our mutual love of the art, in a good and positive manner. I'm glad to have met you in Raleigh also! I hope your at the Mich. camp.

Mao

[DoctorB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BRAM

[B]I'm not really qualified to comment on this I guess. I'm not a MOTT nor a Guardian not anything but a student of Modern Arnis..
I remember in the 80's Professor doing single stick sparring..
you know..#1 high low high low #2 buttpunyo striking #3 clearing Payong-Umbrella, #4 butt- punyo sweeping
#5 Slant & umbrella passing...then add a strike to immediate head counter and a counter to the counter..He used to call that counter to counter Tapi Tapi..and it fit inside of single stick sparring..

Hello There Bram,

Very nice comment and example. I guess that some of us Modern Arnis "long-timers" still rememeber this kind of thing that Professor taught in the early 1980's through the mid 1990's. I came on scene in 1982 as a white belt, studying under Don Zanghi. My training in Modern Arnis was through the local academy in Buffalo AND the seminars as well as camps were for additional intense training, specificly with Professor. I was lucky enough to have Modern Arnis AS MY ART, not merely the art within my original art!

You had a similar training situatiion, I believe, plus you also hosted camps and seminars for Professor. Therefore, you had more opportunities than most others who trained within the art to talk privately and over extended periods of time with the man, as did I. Hence you are aware of many of the various statements that he made and retracted as am I. So I think that I can say without being impolite to anyone, that there are many people who were told many things by Professor... it's simply a matter of which statement do you choose to believe!

An example that I will relate to our readers: I heard Professor promise to help a certin under-belt in Modern Arnis, to open his own school; he also stated that he would put up the operational money necessary to get the school stated AND that the school would serve as the international headquarters for the IMAF! We were at dinner in a private home with just 5 people present, beside myself and the potential new school operator. The school was never opened under the conditions promised!

[B]Then of course we got to do as he did and change up from right to right to left to right..as long as we paid attention...
But always in interview, in class, in seminars..he used to say that having the FLOW was the key..FLOW is what Modern Arnis was about...
He;d show me something show me how it was different from something else then ask me could I see its all the same..
yes it confused me but it forced me to try to see it..
He told me and many people that he personally got the FLOW from the space between Redonda X movement and Sinawali...
yes. I know he may have said something else to others.. I don't want to make that an issue..Justthat I add to the comments of he was into the ability to FLOW.

Damn, Bram, you really are a Modern Arnis long-timer to know, remember and relate to that statement!

[B]I never knew what a MOTT was till just before the Professor died..
I think its( Tapi Tapi) another way , a part of the era..part of that particular tme that Professor had found to teach FLOW..the ability to go with what happens within the space of action-reaction..
everyone grows and changes....He was changing wih thoe that were with him..He found new ways to expresshimself..its not better or worse than we all did before..

Amen to that, Brother Bram... preach on Brother....

[B]We're all got part of the truth as we are able to see it and express it.. sorry for the long rant..
Its only my opinion and I hope I haven't stepped on any toes and I have stuck to the main ORIGINAL thread..

When speaking the truth, do not apologize. Professor was dynamic not static in his thinking and approach to this art that he called Modern Arnis. He was growing and changing, he was refining and re-defining the art because he viewed it as a living creation, not a static art-form to be mimicked by rote and numbers!

There are a great number of people who knew the icon and seminar leader, the stick magician! These folks have lost a leader and guide through the maze that they call Modern Arnis. Some of these people are claiming leadership positions and as Dan Anderson has stated so well... they should lead or get out of the way (paraphrased, not quoted). I fully agree with that idea and in fact I am not looking to any of those folks to lead me anywhere!
I will follow my own destiny as I was doing before I met Professor and as I have since I quite the IMAF.

Professor and I remained friends, we talked from time to time and he never discourged me from following my own path. He told me more than once "Make money and be happy." So I am very delighted to see a post such as yours because it goes back to what we were taught early on by Professor. Now for the bigger question, how many of the people who studied under Professor can actually apply the lessons?

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Cruentus]

Palusat, DoctorB, and Bram:

All great posts! Thank you for words of experience, and bringing this thread back on track. I'm Irish and in my early 20's, so that means I'm Hot-headed and I don't know s**t!:D This would explain why I exploded, and got off track myself!

I am just glad to hear other people's take on things in the Modern Arnis world, whether I agree or not, so long as it stay's open minded.

Bram: I remember that drill, I think, but I was about 14 or 15 when I did it! (wow, memories!)

DoctorB: It was good to hear your input. I saw you in Buffalo; I really ment to introduce myself after the 'talk,' but I was getting ready for My students Black Belt test. I was a little nervous and extremely hyped up; almost like it was my test! :CTF:
I was partnering with him for it. I am proud to say that I now have my 1st Black-Belt student!

I had hoped to introduce myself to you later, or the next day, but I didn't see you, unfortunatily. Sorry about that. I'm sure I'll see you at future events, however.

:cool: :asian:

[Dan Anderson]

Palisut -
Unfortunately, most people in the martial arts have been innundated with tales of succession and tradition and who the master picks to be the leader of the clan. It is something we must all contend with on a personal level. I personally believe that each one of us honestly wants to follow what our teacher intended. The interesting thing is that Prof. Presas had different relationships with each of us, some more personal and some more technical. I have spoken to many of the long timers and we are following what he had intended for each of us. Dr. Shea follows what RP intended for him. Tim Hartman follows what RP intended for him. (insert name here) follows wht RP intended for him/her. I am not so certain that the issue is knowledge and power although it certainly looks that way. RP was a complex individual and some things are not easily clarified now that he is gone. Your last statement was beautifully said.

Dr.B -
I remember RP's constant emphasis on the flow and use it to guide my training.

Paul -
Getting a student to Black Belt gives you goose bumps, doesn't it.

Mao -
It looks like the written word on a page has done its usual thing. It doesn't give intonation, inflection and intention. Either privately email me with you phone number or you can get my phone number from my website. Let's talk. I believe we probably have far more in common than in opposition.

Dan Anderson

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Mao

... I hope your at the Mich. camp.
Mao

M.A.O.,

If I am in the country in May, I would like
to stop by and say hi, and introduce myself.
I hope my Work schedule allows for this.

Have a nice day

Rich

[Mao]

Rich Parsons,
And you would be welcome. Perhaps we'll see you then.

mao

[BRAM]

A couple of more thoughts on Tapi Tapi and on its place on Modern Arnis...
I just watched the first 9 volumes of Professor Presas' last video series on Mano DeTranka: Tapi Tapi...
Basics were taught: stances, Abecidario, Corridas, Numerado...then Block check counter, then block check conter and counter to the counter..or Corridas into Tapi..then locking then disarms...
It all looked like the old days..Then the basic single stick sparring was taught right to right-left to right as the connecting bridge..
and the Tapi Tapi Drills became the glue that held the OLD stuff together..
It reinforced my original thoughts that Professor Presas found a method for tying all of the material together into one long continuous drill.. a wonderful never ending drill that encompasses most of the library of Modern Arnis.many times on the video he states you must learn to make your own Tapi Tapi, to insert whatever you know..to in other words learn Flow..
Learn by rote, add new set skills and then learn to add the what ifs..till the what ifs are standard and there are no suprizes...
Remember spinning throw inside and out? palm press to floor?
of course standing centerlock? Compress elbow? passing inside and out? application of Palis-Palis? of course we all do..
Do I need more time to actualize this version of Tapi Tapi? yes..
Do I know a bunch of it? yup..
Will I get it as good as the MOTTs..and those they teach? I guess if i play enough..
Will the MOTTs get as good as the old guys at slam n jam? I guess with enough play time..
Seems like we have stuff to share..
Stuff we all do..
stuff we all learned from the Professor...

I know Tim knows the Tapi Tapi of the tapes very very well..I can only guess that his students are as up to speed on all of it

I guess I have some stuff to learn..
Thanks for all of you sharing & giving me a chance..

Bram

[DoctorB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BRAM

[B]A couple of more thoughts on Tapi Tapi and on its place on Modern Arnis...
I just watched the first 9 volumes of Professor Presas' last video series on Mano DeTranka: Tapi Tapi...
Basics were taught: stances, Abecidario, Corridas, Numerado...then Block check counter, then block check conter and counter to the counter..or Corridas into Tapi..then locking then disarms...

Hmmmm.... Professor teaching stances... oh wow, now that is a change from the times I was with him through 1994, it sounds like he had gone back to basics and resetting the curriculum... was he in the process of moving away from the "art within your art" approach? Sounds like to me, but of course we will never know for sure!

[B]It all looked like the old days..Then the basic single stick sparring was taught right to right-left to right as the connecting bridge..
and the Tapi Tapi Drills became the glue that held the OLD stuff together..

Yeah, makes sense and it helps to explain why there are some difficulties with people taight in different eras of Modern Arnis training.

[B]It reinforced my original thoughts that Professor Presas found a method for tying all of the material together into one long continuous drill.. a wonderful never ending drill that encompasses most of the library of Modern Arnis.many times on the video he states you must learn to make your own Tapi Tapi, to insert whatever you know..to in other words learn Flow..
Learn by rote, add new set skills and then learn to add the what ifs..till the what ifs are standard and there are no suprizes...
Remember spinning throw inside and out? palm press to floor?
of course standing centerlock? Compress elbow? passing inside and out? application of Palis-Palis? of course we all do..

Sounds to me like you are on the right path, Bram. One of the bigger difficulties that I see within this entire discussion is the problem of rote replication vs. open thinking and movements.
On a copuple of ocassions I have had people get upset with me when I went outside the "drill" and was told, "You can't do that, it's not part of the drill!" I remember all of things that you mentioned and I still use them, plus a number of other things from different areas of the arts.

[B]Do I need more time to actualize this version of Tapi Tapi? yes..
Do I know a bunch of it? yup..
Will I get it as good as the MOTTs..and those they teach? I guess if i play enough..
Will the MOTTs get as good as the old guys at slam n jam? I guess with enough play time..
Seems like we have stuff to share..
Stuff we all do..
stuff we all learned from the Professor...

Damn it, Bram, would you stop acting like a committed student of the arts! Your thinking is going to upset some people and I really do not want to reqad through a lot of posts about how wrong you are wwhen you do not follow the drills and teachings of Professor, exactly as taught by Professor... how dare you consider and advocating making the art fit yourself ;-)


[B]I know Tim knows the Tapi Tapi of the tapes very very well..I can only guess that his students are as up to speed on all of it

I guess I have some stuff to learn..
Thanks for all of you sharing & giving me a chance..

In reality and being serious for just a moment, there is stuff for all of us to learn.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[modarnis]

Originally posted by DoctorB

.... Professor teaching stances... oh wow, now that is a change from the times I was with him through 1994, it sounds like he had gone back to basics and resetting the curriculum... was he in the process of moving away from the "art within your art" approach? Sounds like to me, but of course we will never know for sure.

I see within this entire discussion is the problem of rote replication vs. open thinking and movements.
On a copuple of ocassions I have had people get upset with me when I went outside the "drill" and was told, "You can't do that, it's not part of the drill!" I remember all of things that you mentioned and I still use them, plus a number of other things from different areas of the arts.



I've had the good fortune of training with Bram in Florida and New Orleans in the past. I've never met Dr. B, but he is of the era of my original instructor Lee Lowery. Several interesting points/observations from these comments:

First, I doubt the Professor ever intended to abandon the notion of 'the art within your art' Around the time of the training/shooting for the last video series, I believe the Professor was reevaluating aspects of the system. Footwork is central to most of the techniques and drills, locks, strikes and finishes. The Professor's footwork was so evolved it seemed nonexistent to the causal observer. His body angling, weight distribution and efficiency were clearly that of a person who devoted their lifetime to daily training. He moved and generated power in a similar way to masters of internal practice. For us mere mortals, stance work, body positioning and angling are a much more conscious effort.

I believe the Professor knowing this was central to the preservation of the art decided to include it in both the video series, along with his emphasis to black belts at the last 3 or 4 camps I attended prior to his illness.

The art within the art concept, as well as the emphasis on footwork changed as the student demographic changed. In the early 1980's, many of the Professor's initial students were master level instructors in diverse disciplines. These were folks who had a solid grasp on stance, movement and angling and could apply these concepts to Modern Arnis despite the diversity of their base styles, hence the phrase 'art within your art' As time went on, less of his students had that level of foundation, so a return to basics to provide a solid base for everyone seems like a natural step.

On to the contrast of rote replication and free thought/movement. Again, to actually have a degree of free thought and movement, one needs a degree of mastery of rote repetitive concepts. Whether martial arts, other sports, surgery, cooking, whatever: the ability to free think/free play only develops fully after a mastery of the basics.

The old slam/jam guys:cool: make connections (flow) much more easily and can deviate from a rote pattern because of their understanding of the basics. Even the Professor had basic fall back techniques that could come out of any drill/series or free play. The new video series places emphasis on abercidario, corridas, angling, and other basics that provide a conceptual springboard for free play. In short, there is an interdependency (a yin/yang if you will) between free thought, and an initial understanding gleaned from a significant amount of rote replication.

Aside from making people happy and relaxed, this is why the Professor often started with single Siniwali. It is a rote replication drill which has many important aspects of the art at the ready. After a few thousand reps, you can see the avenues for free play. The secret of Modern Arnis was given away every time I trained with the Professor Practice, practice (fractice)

Respectfully,

Brett:cool:

[BRAM]

Brett:
its good to hear you are OK..
I still go up to conecticut to moms house once in a while..
We in Modern Arnis are extremely lucky in many ways..
There are the 6 tapes from the 80's..copyright 1986..covering the whole system...or as much as he deemed to put on tape..
I still watch them alot..I catch things i missed the first few hundred times..
then Professor did Tape #7 on his own...Modern Arnis Self Defense...
Then over time he did live seminar tapes with George @ video quest: Sinawali Application...
the missing set of 6 Vancouver Tapes...
the unfinished Espada y Daga tape
Then he current set of tapes done basically before he was stricken ill...of course in real time it should be 8 tapes not 15 .5 tapes...but thats a marketing thing...

What we have is a video encyclopedia of the Professor showing us Modern Arnis over a full decade...we can see all the connecting bridges....they are right infront of us...
From single stick sparring to Tapi tapi to Mano De Tranka...
the evolution of teaching is there for us to see, feel and best hear him talk..
"is it real or is it Memorex?"..( Ok I date myself with that one..)

Brett has a point..no one had to show us sidekicks, punches, stances etc..most of us had done that for years already..
we had to understand the art within the art..
teaching my own students I didn't have that as a given.. I had to teach stances, movement etc..
As many of you have done with your students..
they didn't start from the middle as we did..

I look frward to seeing what I missed, whats new and to adding what is my own ..to the future of Modern Arnis..

I learned the old way.."he cannot touch you , he is cut..You do this..it is cut already"..it precludes grabbing the tool of later time..
He taught me. because I had the way..a feel for steel..I learned to cut..
Bruce Chiu used to laugh and say that I was crazy for my love of cutting..and we marveled @ how much the same our Arnis was yet how different it became...

maybe on day I can share the way of steel as I was taught by professor with others in Modern arnis..
and in return I'll learn some of the new ways of Stick..

But as I said we are lucky..
WE have a video library and a living library to check our knowledge from...

be safe..

Bram

[DoctorB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by modarnis

[B]

I've had the good fortune of training with Bram in Florida and New Orleans in the past. I've never met Dr. B, but he is of the era of my original instructor Lee Lowery. Several interesting points/observations from these comments:

Ahh... yes and I had the good fortune to meet and do some training with Sifu Lee; more interesting and insightful were the conversations we had with several others that were real eye openers into Professor's Modern Arnis

[B] First, I doubt the Professor ever intended to abandon the notion of 'the art within your art'

Perhaps "abandon" is too restrictive a term, but quite clearly Professor seemed to understand that there was a need for making another change in the direction that he wanted Modern Arnis to move. I am not saying that the presentation of stances and footwork is bad or good. Perhaps it is a recognized reflection of something that was discussed recently at a meeting that I atttended where several people brought up the subject of basic or foundation skills that were lacking in some Modern Arnis people.

It appears that Professor had already taken note of the same thing and he was moving toward correct the problem. I have seen far too many people relying on handwork - blocks and parries as the basis of their defenses. I was not the only person to notice that situation at the recent meeting.

[B] Around the time of the training/shooting for the last video series, I believe the Professor was reevaluating aspects of the system. Footwork is central to most of the techniques and drills, locks, strikes and finishes.

Well now Brett, it seems that we are in general agreement on this matter of basics such as footwork.

[B] The Professor's footwork was so evolved it seemed nonexistent to the causal observer. His body angling, weight distribution and efficiency were clearly that of a person who devoted their lifetime to daily training. He moved and generated power in a similar way to masters of internal practice. For us mere mortals, stance work, body positioning and angling are a much more conscious effort.

I would not go quite as far you have, with regard to Professor's footwork being so evolved, in fact I submit that part of the problem with those students, lacking foundational skills in Modern Arnis, even some advanced black belt holders is that they mimicked Professor, without understanding the other aspects of evasion that you have so correctly identified such as body angling and weight distrubution. I have seen far too many people in Modern Arnis plant their feet, take root and try to make everything happen with their hands or stick.

I have also seen knife defense taught by some Modern Arnis people who stand directly in front of the blade! That particular example was mentioned by someone else at the recent group meeting, before I could raise the matter, so I am not the only one who sees this lack of fondational skills situation.

I would also like to caution against the notion that we are mere mortals and Professor was so elevated above us that we could never be at or rise to his level... there is always room for growth and improvement. That seems to be where Professor might have been headed with a renewed emphasis the basics for his followers. A strong house requires a firm foundation as does any martial artist.

[B] I believe the Professor knowing this was central to the preservation of the art decided to include it in both the video series, along with his emphasis to black belts at the last 3 or 4 camps I attended prior to his illness.

[B] The art within the art concept, as well as the emphasis on footwork changed as the student demographic changed. In the early 1980's, many of the Professor's initial students were master level instructors in diverse disciplines. These were folks who had a solid grasp on stance, movement and angling and could apply these concepts to Modern Arnis despite the diversity of their base styles, hence the phrase 'art within your art' As time went on, less of his students had that level of foundation, so a return to basics to provide a solid base for everyone seems like a natural step.

OK, now you have come back to my original point. In order to make the current group of Modern Arnis players better, Professor was moving away from "the art within your art" in order to stress basic foundation skills. As I said "abandon" might have been too strong a term, a better term might be "de-emphasising" the art within your art idea. Now he could and would begin to address the problems brought to the seminars and camps by the newer students, who lacked the necessary foundational skills.

[B] On to the contrast of rote replication and free thought/movement. Again, to actually have a degree of free thought and movement, one needs a degree of mastery of rote repetitive concepts. Whether martial arts, other sports, surgery, cooking, whatever: the ability to free think/free play only develops fully after a mastery of the basics.

No disagreement from me on this point as stated above.

[B] The old slam/jam guys:cool: make connections (flow) much more easily and can deviate from a rote pattern because of their understanding of the basics. Even the Professor had basic fall back techniques that could come out of any drill/series or free play. The new video series places emphasis on abercidario, corridas, angling, and other basics that provide a conceptual springboard for free play. In short, there is an interdependency (a yin/yang if you will) between free thought, and an initial understanding gleaned from a significant amount of rote replication.

Again, there is disagreement with your above statement. My point was and still is that too many people are doing the art by rote patterning AND that is all that they can do; we have seen the very best that they have to offer. They are lacking depth and scope in my opinion, whether it is presented as "flow" or "tapi tapi". I did not learn Modern Arnis as an "add on art" or "the art within your art". I studied and practiced it from white belt to 3rd degree black belt on a daily basis for 15 years. I am an "old school student". Tapi tapi is not new stuff to me, it has merely been repackaged by Professor to meet some objectives that he set up but did not necessarily fully articulate.

What I would really like to see is an Open Symposium of Modern Arnis Instructors demonstrating the art as they believe that it should be taught. I would include Delaney, Schea/the MoTTs, Dan Anderson, Bram Frank, Kelly Worden, Tim Hartman and Lisa McManus, among others do their thing. Let their skill be the indicator of each participant's true rank. There really is not a single best way or method of doing Modern Arnis, but it is quite possible to see who has the class and skill to do the art well, verus others who are going through the motions.

Talking and writing on forum proves nothing in the final analysis. Let's take this matter to the floor and then we can compare and contrast what each of the participants have to offer. We will be able to see who has the strong solid foundation and skill levels to make Modern Arnis really sparkle and fly gracefully with fluidity plus power.

I would be willing to host this kind of symposium in June or July, 2003, in Buffalo, NY. Is there anyone willing to be a participant? Just drop me a line at so that we can get this ball rolling:
<escrima_kenpo@hotmail.com>

Please forward this proposal to Delaney, Randi Schea, Ken Smith, Kelly Worden, etc. We could have a very siginficant event. A summit of the top Modern Arnis Instructors, where action replaces nasty words passed back and forth on forums. Given what I saw in Las Vegas, at the Kenpo Gathering of Eagles, a symposium of this kind can clear up a lot of misconceptions and nonsense within the art of Modern Arnis. Professor Presas, Is Gone! The time to set new directions in the art has arrived. Are people willing to accept the challenge of moving the art forward?

If people are really tired of the dumb politics and pointless shouting at one another, then we need to come together and let everyone show what they have to offer people who are interested in Modern Arnis.

Jerome Barber. Ed.D.

[Cruentus]

all good posts!:D

DoctorB, I'm not sure what to think of that offer, but I think I like it.

It looks like I'll have to bring my buddies from the National Guard to bounce the event, and we'll be all set.:rofl:

:2pistols: :apv: :rockets: :tank: :ak47:

Seriously, though, I'm really interested to hear the responses to that offer! I hope that an event like what you suggest does happend eventually; and I hope 2003 isn't to soon for it.

:asian:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL

all good posts!:D

DoctorB, I'm not sure what to think of that offer, but I think I like it.

It looks like I'll have to bring my buddies from the National Guard to bounce the event, and we'll be all set.:rofl:

Seriously, though, I'm really interested to hear the responses to that offer! I hope that an event like what you suggest does happend eventually; and I hope 2003 isn't to soon for it.

:asian:

Thanks Paul, but I doubt that we would need the NG there. This is a very natural and reasonable thing that I am suggesting. It almost goes without saying that there are differences between various people about what is good, better and the best Modern Arnis, but it is also my contention that the best of the best would want this opportunity to show everyone what they have to offer.

What damn good does it do to have different factions all claiming to be the true presenters of the art? Bring everyone together and let's sort it all out by teaching and demonstrating one's knowledge and ability regarding Modern Arnis. If everyone is hiding in their own sphere of influence and maintain seperate existences, how will anyone evr know who the Better and Best Modern Arnis players really are?

I was always told that there is a time for talking and a time for silence, there is a time for action and a time for stillness... I believe that we have reached the point in time where we need some action, we need to have people put their skills on display in an open symposium for all to see and evaluate. The cream will most certinly rise to the top and we will know who the best people are by their actions on the training/teaching floor.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[Cruentus]

Well Said!!!!!!:D :cheers:

[Guro Harold]

For a lighter or "lightsaber" side of this discussion, check out Star Wars: Attack of the Clones. So not to disclose any spoilers, I will not go in details, but, one aspect is "classic" style verses "new".

And yes, I am going to see it tonight at 12:05 am!!!!

:eek: :cool: :duel: :xwing: :jediduel:

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by PAUL

Well Said!!!!!!:D :cheers:

Thank you Paul. There is already some interest in the symposium idea, three e-mails and a phone call. All four people are ready to be presenters if the dates are set up fairly soon! As of this writing no one from the Delaney Group or Schea/MoTTs Group has contacted me, but the idea is now and only out there for a bit over 24 hours.

I will keep the group posted if new contacts and information develop.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[dng1032]

Dr. Barber,
Please go to the following thread...
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2010

I share the same idea of a joint gathering and am in support of your idea...you can count me in if it comes to light...

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by dng1032

Dr. Barber,
Please go to the following thread...
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2010

I share the same idea of a joint gathering and am in support of your idea...you can count me in if it comes to light...


Thank you for your support, Guro David. Let's work to make the symposium come to light. All we really need are some commitments from a few people to be there as presenters. We can work with as few as three(3) or as many as ten(10).

I am hopeful that people will not just sit on their hands, waiting for someone else to do all of the work. I will get the facility and lodging. I will make up the program and coordinate event, but some people need to step forward and commit to being here. If I get three(3) commitments to instruct, I will set a definate date for symposium!

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

[BRAM]

I think this will be good for all of us..
We can see where some concepts become others..We can see the driving principles of those concepts..
And we can see how we each translate...I do remember the Professor always telling me one of the keys was to be able to translate...
I look forward to learning new ways to see and teach Modern Arnis..
and to meeting new people...

be safe

bram

[Bob Hubbard]

I have moved the majority of the symposium posts to their own thread. Please pick up all symposium related topics there so that its easier for everyone to follow.

Thank you.
-Kaith

[Mao]

depending on the date. I already have some scheduled events. But if nothing clashes, I'd be happy to be presenter as well as a representative of the IMAF, INC. (Dr. Shea).
Guro Dan McConnell
Modern Arnis of Ohio
Hilliard Budo Center