how often do you train in shuriken?
do you train to use them or just to practice the art?

in rtms we train with them regularly(sp?) not with the idea that we will have a ninja utility belt on or any other nonesense like that, but you never know what sticks or other projectile weapons might be available.
peace

i would see that as a little narrow. Everything doesnt fly like a shuriken whether its straight like a knife or a like an electric saw. Thats why if they were to train in that , which they should, then they should get some stuff (anything) from outside and have there students throw it at a target. That way if there is a garbage can lid where your hand is then you can throw it at your enemies or pursuers without any problems, right. Maybe im wrong but if i wanted to end a fight quick and they have a gun or somethin (i dont know, criminals are creatively stupid) then CRASH there's a nose bleed.

If i remeber Shuriken is generaly anything you can throw to distract some one, though it is now is another name for "Chinese" Stars

Now the school im traied in its viewed a side thing, your expected to do it and its a belt requirement, and you can ask people about it, but due to we train inside a gym no one comes in loaded with stars and spikes and throws them

I play with them whenever i am in the mood for them, there quite fun and a good waste of time but doubt i woudl ever use them in a actual real battle at lest with my skill, the stars are easy to aim and throw anyways but there designed that way, spikes are a bit harder and not as painfull i would think, and i love the saying from a shuriken how-to sites about knifes: "Why would someone want to throw there perfectly good knife?" i would rather stand and fight with my knife then just throw it and hope for the best :P

But maybe its with my gun exp. but i wouldnt throw a trashcan lid at someone with a gun

It seems that Enson is referring to the shuriken as it relates to the art itself. Not that anything else could not be "shuriken" (Garbage can lid).

In To-Shin Do, traditional ninjutsu weapons aren't usually involved as it directs itself more to the modern day scenario. Weapons like that are offered through the Classical training programs of our school.

Be blessed.

i have a question.
When you train with shuriken, do you think that for training you should use anything so your not astonished to find an apple under your hand as your thrown down by your enemy (pursuer or bully from school) then that would be some good ruffage wasted on him?

Start with the traditional weapons first: stars and spikes, then when you understand the principles, apply those principles and practice with knives, spears, rocks, credit cards (I've seen someone throw a credit card like a shuriken and burried it in a wooden target), drink coasters, ashtrays, etc. So you can learn all the little differences in weight, aerodynamics, etc.

Unfortunately, I myself haven't trained much in thrown weapons. I've used spikes in the dojo maybe twice, stars once or twice, and a variety of others at a particular seminar. I do most of my shuriken practice at home.

As for throwing a perfectly good knife: I think it's a move of desperation. Sometimes in the dojo when doing techniques with tanto, after things break down and it starts getting freeform, I often find myself jumping away and throwing the knife at my partner just to end the chaos. Now that I think of it, that's very similar to the way I push away and then kick, when my partner gets a little too sticky with the grappling when I just want to get away.

In both cases, it's not something one plans for, it just happens.


Oh yeah, and don't throw anything at someone with a gun - their long-range weapon is better than yours. Exception would be if you can take them by surprise, especially from cover, and most especially if you have a clear escape route.

Thanks ill try that.

If i remeber Shuriken is generaly anything you can throw to distract some one, though it is now is another name for "Chinese" Stars

Now the school im traied in its viewed a side thing, your expected to do it and its a belt requirement, and you can ask people about it, but due to we train inside a gym no one comes in loaded with stars and spikes and throws them

I play with them whenever i am in the mood for them, there quite fun and a good waste of time but doubt i woudl ever use them in a actual real battle at lest with my skill, the stars are easy to aim and throw anyways but there designed that way, spikes are a bit harder and not as painfull i would think, and i love the saying from a shuriken how-to sites about knifes: "Why would someone want to throw there perfectly good knife?" i would rather stand and fight with my knife then just throw it and hope for the best :P

But maybe its with my gun exp. but i wouldnt throw a trashcan lid at someone with a gunIn agreement with what you say here (expecially the last sentence regarding someone with a gun). If I might add, the only thought I would add is that the use of the weapons may or may not be obsolete, but the body mechanics used is not. As Enson says, if we have a 17-round clip, locked and loaded, why waste ammo space with toys?

. As Enson says, if we have a 17-round clip, locked and loaded, why waste ammo space with toys?uh.... i said that? :idunno:
don't remember, but if i did... okay! ;)

anyway re: the trash can you might not want to throw something that could be used as a shield. not like it will stop a bullet but could help to hide your exact location.

peace

Well i only mentioned that because i live in detroit and its open plain kinda except the houses so the only cover is the houses there aren't any alies (those narrow passage ways that a car can barely get through, i cant spell) really. Plus people tend to hang in a gang so even abully has his crew of bullies. So the first thing i thought of was to throw the garbage can lid and there goes that bullies nose, now its time to run with all my might. See where i got that from. The garbage can can be cover, but not if the guy has an automatic anything gun, and so i agree but who carries a gun around with them, besides gangstas (which most bullies just happen to belong to).

i can see what you mean. it all depends on what situation you are in. the same idea would work with small boulders, the trash can itself, and other heavy objects. shuriken as i have studied would be more of using a weapon as a projectile (sp?) to win the fight (so you might just be on to something). what you are talking about is a modern application used for a ninjutsu concept. :) right up my alley!

peace

oooo great finally i made some sense. Okay so with the situation comes the answer (sometimes) for escape unless you started it then you get your just desserts.

I remember watching part of 'The Hunted' last night in which the main guy, Bennicio Del Toro (or however his name is) uses just a knife to kill two hunters with rifles. So alot of it is circumstancial...

Well that guy was a feakin genius when it came down to survival.

I just read a post that said that bujinkan ninjutsu is slower in technique oir something like that than modern ninjutsu. Is that true.

how often do you train in shuriken?
do you train to use them or just to practice the art? Are all of you sure that all of these items you've listed are actually considered old school shuriken?

For those in modern schools, do you use the term "shuriken?"

But why does it have to stop there? Why dont they have an ACTUAL modernized ninjutsu with the taijutsu and nothing else with the weapons training of the ninja with some modernized sparring type stuff and some other stuff?

ninhito: "Thanks ill try that."

Thanks, you'll try what? This isn't a chat room, it doesn't make sense to reply with a post that is in response to someone else when we don't know who you're responding to, what you're responding about, and why you would post at all without contributing further to the discussion.*

Sorry I have to slap you around like this in public, but this is a lesson many could benefit from.

*Contributing Further = asking a question, expressing an opinion, or sharing useful information.

Ok, with that out of the way . . .

"oooo great finally i made some sense. Okay so with the situation comes the answer (sometimes) for escape unless you started it then you get your just desserts."

You made perfect sense. That is the point of training: learn a concept or principle with some specific weapon or technique, and after much practice, be able to apply those principles to many different situations. And, yeah, if you started the fight and get beat up then you had it comin'.

AaronLucia: "I remember watching part of 'The Hunted' last night in which the main guy, Bennicio Del Toro (or however his name is) uses just a knife to kill two hunters with rifles. So alot of it is circumstancial..."

That was a cool movie. I think it's "Benicio", with one 'n' but I could be wrong - great actor!

It is all circumstancial! Nothing in real life happens exactly as planned. No situation can be perfectly planned for. But the more you practice, the more you increase your chances of success.

ninhito: "Well that guy was a feakin genius when it came down to survival."

And that was due to training and practice, so he was able to use his skills to shift the balance of power away from two men with guns and towards his one man with a knife.

Here's a fun fact for you movie trivia buffs:

The survival / tracking skills portrayed in that movie are from the Tom Brown school. Many Bujinkan practicioners study the Tom Brown methods, and while I am unsure whether Mr. Brown ever studied ninjutsu himself, he does endorse the Bujinkan (specifically) and ninjutsu in general as being closest to the tracker/scout lifestyle.

Here's another interesting fact (according to the official Tom Brown Tracker School website): Tom Brown and family and his tracking school is moving to Florida.

ninhito: "I just read a post that said that bujinkan ninjutsu is slower in technique oir something like that than modern ninjutsu. Is that true."

Maybe if you tell us where you saw that post, we could check it out for ourselves and continue discussing that opinion in the thread it was brought up.

(ya' know to avoid thread-drift, which many of us veteran forum readers find annoying).

ninhito: "But why does it have to stop there? Why dont they have an ACTUAL modernized ninjutsu with the taijutsu and nothing else with the weapons training of the ninja with some modernized sparring type stuff and some other stuff?"

I don't understand this question. What is it in response to? Why does what have to stop where? "Actual modernized ninjutsu?" "with the taijutsu and nothing else?" "with the weapons..?" "and some other stuff?"
What exactly are you asking here? And what does it have to do with shurikenjutsu? Maybe there is another thread already in existance that would be better for this sort of question. Maybe in the Traditional/Neo thread in the general section.


All the best,

S.S.

Okay let me clarify. Why does the shurikenjutsu have to stop there, like at the shuriken? Why dont they have modernized version of bujinkan (because i dont have a clue what the difference in the X-kans) with everything a little adapt to the way things are now? I know bujinkan does not spar but how do you know you're doing the technique right?

I have had some limited instruction in shuriken-do. We throw knives, spikes, etc. It's frustruating but relaxing training - a skill you're always reaching for.

ninhito: "Okay let me clarify. Why does the shurikenjutsu have to stop there, like at the shuriken? Why dont they have modernized version of bujinkan (because i dont have a clue what the difference in the X-kans) with everything a little adapt to the way things are now? I know bujinkan does not spar but how do you know you're doing the technique right?"

First of all, shurikenjutsu doesn't stop there. All the different objects and concepts we have been discussing here is part of the basic shuriken training in the Bujinkan.

Second, there is a modernized version of Bujinkan - it's called Toshindo.

Third, the Bujinkan does not need to be "modernized" in order to adapt to the way things are now.

Fourth, some in the Bujinkan do spar. It isn't part of the core curriculum though, nor is it recommended as something that is necessary to learn the art or to "know you're doing the technique right."

ninhito,

all of your questions regarding the bujinkan and their effectivness should be asked on the traditional side. this thread is only regarding the shuriken as it is used in the modern schools.

shizen,

toshindo is not considered by most to be a modern version of bujinkan... just a modern version of ninjutsu. hayes developed it to be a practicle version of ninjutsu. their are a few toshindo practicioners here that can explain it better than i.

peace

Enson: "ninhito, all of your questions regarding the bujinkan and their effectivness should be asked on the traditional side."

The questions he is asking are about comparing Bujinkan to modern schools, so they are ok to ask in the modern section, or maybe since he is mentioning both traditional and modern, the questions belong in the general section.

However, if the question/comment isn't about shuriken, then I agree it doesn't belong here.

"shizen, toshindo is not considered by most to be a modern version of bujinkan... just a modern version of ninjutsu. hayes developed it to be a practicle version of ninjutsu. their are a few toshindo practicioners here that can explain it better than i."

Hayes learned ninjutsu from the Bujinkan, he then "modernized" / updated it / made it practical to modern situations (as if the Bujinkan wasn't up-to-date and modern enough :rolleyes: ).

QED, Toshindo = modern Bujinkan (by transitive property). Of course it isn't really part of the Bujinkan as Hayes has made it entirely separate.

Mr. Hayes did not learn his ninjutsu from the Bujinkan. His first 3 degree certificates were in Togakure Rye ninjutsu. I don't think that most Bujinkan practitioners would define To-Shin Do as modern Bujinkan, IMO. It isn't Bujinkan or modern bujinkan. To-Shin Do, as Mr. Hayes defines it, is a 21st century application of ninjutsu concepts taught to him from Masaaki Hatsumi.

Mr. Hayes on the other hand does also teach a traditional course if one prefers it. The Shadows of Iga class taught in Dayton also extends a Bujinkan Budo certification signed by Dr. Hatsumi. Even though this is done, it is not a Bujinkan school. To-Shin Do is what it is. A current application of ninjutsu concepts. Bujinkan is different. My two cents.

Does Hayes have menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu? Personally, I doubt it.

So much for the Shuriken thread. No one defined what a Shuriken is anyway. Gotta duck those trash cans.

Right right. Sorry guys. Shuriken is the thread. I apologize.

as it was explained to me:

re: shuriken= a name that was given to discribe the use of projectile weapons. within the spirit of this rtms takes it to a new level using any weapon we can find to learn how to throw it.
the actual meaning of the word... i dont' know.:idunno:

peace

The actual meaning of the word is: blade (or weapon) hidden in the hand.

That is more proof that I am very unknowledgeable about budo; I thought shuriken meant hand (shu) released (ri) blade (ken).

jibran: "That is more proof that I am very unknowledgeable about budo; I thought shuriken meant hand (shu) released (ri) blade (ken)."

It could mean that; it depends on how it is written. I have always seen shuriken written with the same kanji for 'ura' (inner / hidden) for 'ri.'

手裏剣 shu-ri-ken

手　 te / shu = hand
裏　ura / ri = inner / hidden
剣 ken = blade

SO Enson...

Shuriken in Tew Ryu...

Can you give (if possible, I know its hard in writing) an example of a shuriken throwing technique (body/hand movement, etc) and what you normaly target with the shuriken when using them?

SO Enson...

Shuriken in Tew Ryu...

Can you give (if possible, I know its hard in writing) an example of a shuriken throwing technique (body/hand movement, etc) and what you normaly target with the shuriken when using them?i have not trained personally in shuriken (shurikenjutsu)... sensei doesn't trust me with blades or sharp objects yet! hee hee!;)

from what i have seen it all stems from the spirit and breath within and should be one fluid movement... when i saw it done we were using the targeting boards from century.

which shuriken did you use? flat ones that look like stars or the spike/dart ones?

anyway, you can call a shuriken a shuriken or a shaken. Like you can call a ninja a ninja or a shinobi. Shaken is the catagory name, like knife. A shaken can be any small hand sized throwing object that you can hide in your hand. Shuriken is more specific, like a brand name. And a bo/straight (dart) or hira/flat (star) is the type, like a switch blade. I hope that helps.