bowing to buddah variations

[jaybacca72]

was wondering how others do this technique and what variations that have come about and possible what if grafting that has been discovered.
later
jay :-partyon:

[Touch Of Death]

was wondering how others do this technique and what variations that have come about and possible what if grafting that has been discovered.
later
jay :-partyon:To be honest, I haven't been asked to perform that tech in about fifteen years. I do insert the elbow thingy into "sleeper". :)
Sean

[tsunami]

We do bowing to budda as follows. The starting position is left knee down. The attack is a thrusting front ball kick. Execute an inward block for kick. Then we advance the right leg (about 6" or so) and drag up the left leg while performing a left uppward palm/claw to the groin along with an uppward elbow to the solarplexus (to check head butt) then pull the scrotum back towards you with your claw and sandwich it with a downward backnuckle strike. Then if you wanted to, (although I doubt he would still be there after the groin shots).you could switch-up your feet to left cat as you transition into prance of the tiger.
Hope this helps. George

[tsunami]

someday I will figure out just how posting works

[Seabrook]

was wondering how others do this technique and what variations that have come about and possible what if grafting that has been discovered.
later
jay :-partyon:
I teach this technique for a secondary right roundhouse kick, as you are down on one knee, of course.

I use a left extended outward block to the ankle, simultaneous with a right forearm block that guides along the opponent's leg, making sure to step-drag as I block. The right upward elbow to the groin is executed as I move up the opponent's leg, borrowing force.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[MisterMike]

There's a lot of variants of this technique but we should remember it was taken from Form 4.

I learned it for a front kick, as being on one knee it may be hard to stay upright when blocking a roundhouse kick. Mr. Seabrook, what do you mean by "secondary" roundhouse kick?

One noteable about why Bowing to Buddha is in Form 4 where it is:

The hand combinations are - upward heelpalm claw (grab) followed by a downward back-knuckle strike.

The preceding technique used - downward heelpalm claw (grab) followed by an upward back-knuckle strike.

Looks like opposites to me ;) And here I thought the forms were a random collection of cool techniques all strung together :rolleyes: (j/k)

[Seabrook]

By secondary roundhouse kick, I mean that the opponent is in a left neutral bow and executing a right roundhouse kick. I also prefer a hammerfist to the groin as opposed to a back-knuckle, but in reality, either will work.

Bowing to buddha is basically the same technique as Raining Claw but on a lower line.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[BIGDOG]

Bowing to Budda won't work against a roundhouse kick, from that position you have no bracing angle.BIGDOG

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Bowing to Budda won't work against a roundhouse kick, from that position you have no bracing angle.BIGDOG
Actually it does by shifting the "trail leg" to 4:30 to adjust the angle and provide the brace. Same foot manuever from 'Swinging Pendulum' prefixed to 'Bowing to Buddha' problem solved with a little open thought.

[Seabrook]

Bowing to Budda won't work against a roundhouse kick, from that position you have no bracing angle.BIGDOG
I went through this technique step-by-step at the recent LTKKA Las Vegas Camp. That is how Larry Tatum teaches it, so I beg to differ.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Ray]

I went through this technique step-by-step at the recent LTKKA Las Vegas Camp. That is how Larry Tatum teaches it, so I beg to differ.

Jamie Seabrook
I wouldn't second guess or disagree with Mr. Tatum.

But if you were down on one knee and you were attacked with the roundhouse kick, could you use that technique; or is there another that specifically addresses the situation?

[Seabrook]

Bowing to Budda won't work against a roundhouse kick, from that position you have no bracing angle.BIGDOG
I just noticed that it wasn't only the LTKKA group that teach this technique off a right roundhouse kick.

In fact, I visited the KenpoNet, and see they have it written out for a right roundhouse kick. Then I visited a WKKA site, and see they have it written out for a right roundhouse as well. So then I thought, hmmm, maybe I should check Infinite Insights into Kenpo, vol. 5, pp 82-83, and interestingly, Ed Parker himself had it listed for a right roundhouse kick.

Two questions:

(1) What do you teach it for?
(2) Why, specifically, do you think it doesn't work for a right roundhouse kick?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Ray]

I just noticed that it wasn't only the LTKKA group that teach this technique off a right roundhouse kick.
I think you're right.

I believe the tracy's may have a similar technique called "kneeling tiger" and might do it for a front kick.

Personally, I would hate to be on one knee facing a straight in kick from the front; but we'd block and counter as we could I suppose.

[Seabrook]

I know Big Dog is Pat Maguire who trains under Huk Planas, so I am VERY interested in knowing how the Huk Planas lineage teach the technique.

Thanks in advance.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)

[Kenpodoc]

I just noticed that it wasn't only the LTKKA group that teach this technique off a right roundhouse kick.

In fact, I visited the KenpoNet, and see they have it written out for a right roundhouse kick. Then I visited a WKKA site, and see they have it written out for a right roundhouse as well. So then I thought, hmmm, maybe I should check Infinite Insights into Kenpo, vol. 5, pp 82-83, and interestingly, Ed Parker himself had it listed for a right roundhouse kick.

Two questions:

(1) What do you teach it for?
(2) Why, specifically, do you think it doesn't work for a right roundhouse kick?

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com (http://www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com)
The over simple answer is that Huk Planas says it's not for a roundhouse.

As written it has the wrong bracing angle without adjustment.

I've had people kick me with full intent to play with this very question. For me it worked well against a front kick and it could be used against a roundhouse with minimal modification.

Jeff

[MisterMike]

Form 4, where the technique came from, again, to add technique content for all the colored belts, starts this technique by dropping to a knee with a DOWNWARD forearm block. How do you block a roundhouse kick with a DOWNWARD forearm block?

To me, it fits a (lifting) front kick a lot better, and you are braced for it.
After the DOWNWARD forearm block, the elbow is anchored to push the kicking leg to the side and create line of sight for the upward elbow to the groin.

A lot of people use the vertical forearm position jsut before the upward elbow as the block for a roundhouse, but as others have stated, you need to have a bracing angle to withstand the force of the roundhouse kick.

[BIGDOG]

You're right if you change your angle it can be made to work.But Jamie you said as written. Go back and read it again. I was taught why it would'nt work on the mat with Mr. Planas(a painful experiance).BD

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

You're right if you change your angle it can be made to work.But Jamie you said as written. Go back and read it again. I was taught why it would'nt work on the mat with Mr. Planas(a painful experiance).BD
I'm sure I could give you just as much of a painful experience on how it does work, as well as Blinding Sacrifice LOL.

DarK LorD

[Kenpojujitsu3]

Two things to remember:
1. The techniques are written in the 'ideal phase' to study motion, but can modified slightly in most cases to handle other attacks and variables (What-if) when the time for actual application comes.
2. Techniques are often done in two versions the 'form version' and the 'non-form' version.

Example (1): 'Form 4' Bowing to Buddha uses a front kick because the previous technique (defensive cross) used a front kick. Bowing to buddha is an opposite of that technique but the attack remains the same to help students find the connection on their own. The hands travel in opposite directions, we move forward instead of backward, we start kneeling instead of standing, we grab the left leg instead of the right leg, etc. The 'non-form' version of bowing to buddha is often taught against a roundhouse kick to facilitate teaching off-angle-ing and moving up the circle from a kneeling position and executing dance of deaths takedown from a grounded position to 'turn the tables'

Example (2): 'Short 3' Crossing Talon teaches the hand pin wrist lock takedown instead of the strike takedown used in the technique. In the 'form version' the person is at a distance and we pin the hand to keep them from fully retreating. In the 'non form' version the range is closer and our focus is on canceling the punch by striking the right arm not on the opponent increasing the distance.

Example (3): 'Form 6' The first side of twisted rod has us advancing after a retreating attacker with a pistol while keeping contact with the gun bearing arm, while the second side is done in the 'technique version' against a stationary attacker.

Example (4): 'Long 3' Glancing Spear is missing the check with the lead hand to facilitate the glancing effect off of our wrist since we don't have the opponents shoulder to use in the form. The check is also missing to make it easier to see that the motion in Glancing Spear is reversed to another 'nearby technique' in the form.

Also don't forget that the book doesn't fight for you and neither does your instructor. So don't get so hung up on:

"Technique X doesn't work because it's not written that way."
"Technique X doesn't work because instructor Y said it doesn't."
"Technique X does work because Master Z teaches it that way."

The techniques work or don't work because of the application or lack of application of principles, not because the books or any person say they do/don't. So if a technique won't work figure out the WHY and do what fits within the principles of motion to make it work as necessary. The WHO said this and WHAT'S written doesn't matter if the principles that say WHY are adhered to.

[RaysOnAwaV]

After reading some of the post I can help but to think of a technique called five swords. In the ideal phase of the attack your opponent is throwing a right roundhouse punch. So what your saying BIGDOGG is that this technique will not work because I have no bracing angle?

Let me ask you a question. When you are training with your opponent and he throws a right roundhouse punch, do you what till the punch is at the end of it's appex? Or do you step in and close the gap and block (or strike Mr. Hale) the punch before he is able to generate some power?

With bowing to budda we have a roundhouse kick coming at us naturally if you do nothing at all, but put up a universal block, and allow your opponent to generate power he may be able to knock you over. We have to get in there and meet there action. The sooner X meets Y the greater the deflection.

I feel there is nothing wrong with working bowing budda using a front kick. But we should not discard the ideal phase of the technique. In the beginning didn't like Entwined Lance. I felt that my chop to the arm with an eye poke and a right leg check was not very effective. But I believe Mr. Parker created the system a certain way for a reason. There is a natural progression to the techniques. The way I view Entwined Lance now as a 3rd black is not the same as when I learned it. Some techniques may not have street value, but may have been created for other reasons.

Ray

[don bohrer]

We teach it against a right rising knee (a). Our (b) version works is suited for a kick.

don (el paso)

[Castle]

Hello fellow Kenpo practicioners,

Due to the elbow strike used in A version, Kneeling prayer or bowing to buddah (I have heard both names used) is better suited to a knee strike because of the range. The B version will work better against a rising front kick. Circle of China, Kneeling tiger and Prayer of Death may all be considered variations of Kneeling Prayer since Kneeling Prayer is learned before any of these other techniques.

[Kenpo17]

This technique starts with you on your left knee, left knee being down. Now, the attack is for a step-through low kick with your right leg to the head. As you are on your right knee, with your right arm you cut acrossed your body to block the on coming kick, then as you shuffle in, still on your right knee, you elbow to the stomach if you can, if not elbow to the groin area, and as you bring your right elbow down, get your left hand under the attackers groin and with your right hand, make a fist and smack down on the attackers groin, and meet your left hand. On the hammer-fist down on the groin, you go all the way through the groin area and meet your left hand which will remain open. That is the base technique. Someone else will have to explain the extension, because I can't think of it off the top of my head, and I don't have anyone here to be my uke while I try to figure out how to explain it. Hope I did a good job explaining the base technique though.

[tigdra]

I learned bowing to buddha for a right knee and the technique starts down on one knee but we execute a downward forearm immediatly followed by an inward block almost like making "J" letter in the air. then we follow with the claw, upward elbow, groin snatch and hammer sandwich.

[kenpo3631]

In conversations with my instructors they say that in their conversations with Ed Parker that the techniques were in no particular order and that the forms were the real study of motion.

[kenpo3631]

The techniques work or don't work because of the application or lack of application of principles, not because the books or any person say they do/don't. So if a technique won't work figure out the WHY and do what fits within the principles of motion to make it work as necessary. The WHO said this and WHAT'S written doesn't matter if the principles that say WHY are adhered to.

or people really don't understand the system and change things to "make" them work when they really don't need to be changed

[Ray]

or people really don't understand the system and change things to "make" them work when they really don't need to be changedOr maybe some of what we see as "changes" were really in the system before it became 154 base techs + 96 extensions?

[kenpo3631]

Or maybe some of what we see as "changes" were really in the system before it became 154 base techs + 96 extensions?

No. I disagree. I have seen and still am learning how the forms were laid out and why things were done they were done. I am not saying you can't do Bowing to Buddha by changing "your" angle. But why? You learn in Swinging Pendulum that standing in the line of attack for the roundhouse kick is a bad idea. The power the roundhouse kick generates is phenominal. So armed with that information, why would you attempt to take on a roundhouse kick while on one knee? Are you willing to play the action/re-action game?

So maybe I should have re-worded my intial comment to James' statement. Because I partially agree with him.


So if a technique won't work figure out the WHY and do what fits within the principles of motion to make it work as necessary. The WHO said this and WHAT'S written doesn't matter if the principles that say WHY are adhered to.

I agree that practioners should figure out why too. I just go about it differently.

[Ray]

No. I disagree. I have seen and still am learning how the forms were laid out and why things were done they were done. I am not saying you can't do Bowing to Buddha by changing "your" angle. But why? You learn in Swinging Pendulum that standing in the line of attack for the roundhouse kick is a bad idea. The power the roundhouse kick generates is phenominal. So armed with that information, why would you attempt to take on a roundhouse kick while on one knee? Are you willing to play the action/re-action game? I suppose we don't always get the luxury of deciding where we'll be when an attacker throws a kick. Maybe we'll be on one knee, maybe we won't.

We don't have the luxury of deciding what the attacker will throw, be it a roundhouse kick, front kick, ax kick, etc.

We do have the option to move somewhere. Maybe a angle change to brace against the roundhouse kick, but like Mr. Miyagi says "the best block is to not be there"...so maybe we move closer to the attacker, too close for the roundhouse to be effective (as in Calming the Storm). So, given the option, we're probably going to move somewhere. It seems formulaic to me in almost every tech: Move (your body), block and attack...whether done serially or in parallel, it's the same formula. So I agree that we will move, just a question of where.

But what does happen if we're down on one knee one day and our option to move is severly limited? What then?

[madeku]

iv always worked a variation it as an offensive technique. as in you're down tying your shoe and someone comes up, you just got suckerpunched and you're down on your knee(s).

left hand checks/strikes the person's right leg (assuming its his lead leg) above the knee, right upward elbow, and the oh so fun claw back knuckle. left hand circles around clockwise around the opponent's right knee, and pulls while you push to the bladder with the right hand. if you happen to be on both knees, bring the right foot up so you have stability while you push. (at this point you could insert a backknuckle to their left leg ala dance of death) the right hand circles under their right leg, and passes it to your right right side, rolling them over. get up and run, or stomp some ass.

did it on someone who didnt tell me they forgot a cup.. not pretty. funny, but not pretty.