just want to find out eveyone's thoughts on it.

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.

i guess the draw back is you cant say your studing pure traditional ninjutsu styles :P butthe good side is you can generaly do what you want :P

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.What is misleading? Why is whatever misleading - misleading? :idunno:

My guess is the major drawback would be studying something with a misleading name. It starts all sorts of arguments.seems like you are the one starting the arguements! :mp5: :jedi1: . you haven't been around in awhile and apparently haven't noticed the 2 sub forums. chill out man, breathe, and get along!

i would think would have to agree and say that you can't run around saying that your art is 4000 years old. and you only use traditional weapons passed down from generation to generation... then again why would you want to? i think that adaptation is essential to a thriving art form.
"its not the strongest who survive, but the ones that can adapt to their enviroment" (i read that somewhere;))
peace

What is misleading? Why is whatever misleading - misleading?

Because the name of the art you are studying is also the name of an art claimed by about 70 different ryuha in Japan 400 years ago. Yet, clearly, there is no Japanese connection or origination here.

It would be like me developing my own, independent, and even worthwhile martial art tradition... but then calling it Heretic-style Pankration. Knowing full well, of course, that it has no relationship whatsoever to the Greek martial art of the same name.

It misleads people, and starts arguments.

seems like you are the one starting the arguements!

Not really. I'm just pointing out a drawback to the systems in question, which was part of the thread topic.

you haven't been around in awhile and apparently haven't noticed the 2 sub forums. chill out man, breathe, and get along!

I have noticed everything that has been going on, and have been watching on and off the entire time. I also fail to see how the creation of a new forum changes facts.

A question was asked, an answer was given. Simple as that.

i would think would have to agree and say that you can't run around saying that your art is 4000 years old. and you only use traditional weapons passed down from generation to generation... then again why would you want to? i think that adaptation is essential to a thriving art form.

Ummm.... okay.

That's all well and good, and I certainly don't disagree with any of it. But, it doesn't change the fact that the names are misleading to many. I'm not pointing out the effectiveness of these arts as a drawback, but simply the misleading quality of their names. That's all.

Have a good one. Laterz.

what style of modern are you refering to? some of the styles here are very founded in ninjutsu concepts. others... well they can't even show a picture of their soke. so if you are talking about the names being misleading... you need to make yourself more clear that way the practicioner of that style can rebuttel.
if you don't you are just trying to start an arguement.

peace

I agree to use a name (like Karate, Ju Jutsu, Ninjutsu, etc.) there should be some lineage, from the country of origin to teacher to student and on down. How much, or how long you trained before forming your own style of it is another debate.


As for the real topic here, I think they are the same as traditional. It all depends on who is teaching.

Is it ok if a neo uses the word "Ninjitsu" since traditionalist said numerous times that, in Japan, there is no such word? Its hard to find 70 year-old ryuha using the term anyway. could I use Koga Yamabushi Karuma Hachi-ryu of Ninjitsu.

Anybody know who holds the copywrite on "Ninjitsu" (or Ninjutsu for that matter)?.

sojobow

well as you know people are known for how and what they post. so if you say "ninjitsu" people already expect it from you.

like i have already stated... it doesn't really matter (if it doesn't matter to you)... at least on this side. it also could be a pronunciation (sp?) issue.

peace

what style of modern are you refering to? some of the styles here are very founded in ninjutsu concepts. others... well they can't even show a picture of their soke. so if you are talking about the names being misleading... you need to make yourself more clear that way the practicioner of that style can rebuttel.

Fair enough.

The modern styles I specifically had in mind were the ones of very recent creation with no solid connection to the Japanese traditions whose names they "share" --- such as Dux ryu, Ashida Kim's group, Tew ryu, Saito ryu, and so forth. I don't put groups like Hayes' Toshindo style into this categorization (nor do I feel they should be classified under the modern forums to begin with). As far as I can see, Toshindo is the only style here based on authentic Japanese "ninjutsu concepts". The others are primarily Western inventions.

And, the point I was making still holds true --- the name given to the styles is misleading. It would be like calling your style a kenjutsu school when its actually based on savate.

Is it ok if a neo uses the word "Ninjitsu" since traditionalist said numerous times that, in Japan, there is no such word? Its hard to find 70 year-old ryuha using the term anyway. could I use Koga Yamabushi Karuma Hachi-ryu of Ninjitsu.

Actually, that was not what has been said at all, sojobow. Ninjitsu is indeed a Japanese word... it just means something completely different than what its claimants says it does.

Also, while being technically correct Japanese, it also doesn't make much sense. "Fruit of stealth"?? C'mon...

Anybody know who holds the copywrite on "Ninjitsu" (or Ninjutsu for that matter)?.

Nobody does. Of course, such a line of arguing really has little to do with the central critique I made --- that the name given the arts in question is misleading.

Even if somebody truly did "own" the word in question, it would still be misleading and confusing to call American hybrid styles by that name.

it also could be a pronunciation (sp?) issue.

Technically, its a transliteration issue.

Jutsu and jitsu, as I said before, refer to two different kanji in the Japanese language. They are not interchangeable.

Laterz.

Sojobow,

This is another exhausted topic, Ninjitsu with the (i) is the same as Ninjutsu with the (u) just different spelling, a few swapped letters. But the meaning remains the same. Just like mom (american spelling) means the same as mum (Australian/English) a letter has been changed to help with the accuracy of pronounciation. Spelt different, meaning reamains the same.

The term "ninjitsuist" was created by yourself or Dux, as before you i had never heard it. Correct me if i am wrong.

thanks
-andrew

Seems that some of us utilize the word "Ninjitsu" as an adjective rather than a noun. Its like wearing the Ninja outfits. If it helps you focus in practice, by all means, wear it.

Fair enough.

The modern styles I specifically had in mind were the ones of very recent creation with no solid connection to the Japanese traditions whose names they "share" --- such as Dux ryu, Ashida Kim's group, Tew ryu, Saito ryu, and so forth. I don't put groups like Hayes' Toshindo style into this categorization (nor do I feel they should be classified under the modern forums to begin with). As far as I can see, Toshindo is the only style here based on authentic Japanese "ninjutsu concepts". The others are primarily Western inventions.

Laterz.*sigh*
all you have done is to come here and start arguements. its because of people like yourself that this forum got split in the first place. its funny how you don't get much action on the traditional side... grass greener maybe?:rolleyes:
are you bored over there on your side? hee hee! :lol:
rtms tew ryu ninjutsu's connection to japanese history is not relevant to this forum.(but because some who love to bring up past converstations like they never have been spoken of before... i will go on) i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?) but like i have said before and if you want to scroll up with your mouse we are in the modern forum, and indeed rtms tew ryu ninjutsu is a modern style based on ninjutsu concepts. it was founded in america (like baseball), developed here, and doesn't claim to come from japan. like toshindo was developed here.
my question to you heretic888 is how many times have i said that already? you have a search button on the top.
peace

*sigh*
i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?)
Well, technically, Bussey never received a teaching license in Togakure ryu, or the Bujinkan for that matter.

Jeff

Well, technically, Bussey never received a teaching license in Togakure ryu, or the Bujinkan for that matter.

Jeffokay. i said the only probable connection. the rest doesn't matter to me.

peace

This is another exhausted topic, Ninjitsu with the (i) is the same as Ninjutsu with the (u) just different spelling, a few swapped letters. But the meaning remains the same. Just like mom (american spelling) means the same as mum (Australian/English) a letter has been changed to help with the accuracy of pronounciation. Spelt different, meaning reamains the same.

Actually, this is inaccurate. I refer you to the delineations between the "jutsu" and "jitsu" transliteratons I mentioned before.

There are other Japanese words translated into English that use the "jitsu" kanji as distinct from "jutsu". There is no reason that this "ninjitsu" should have special exceptions made for it.

all you have done is to come here and start arguements. its because of people like yourself that this forum got split in the first place. its funny how you don't get much action on the traditional side... grass greener maybe?

Actually, it because of people that passed their American hybrid styles as "ninjutsu" that the forum got split up. Of course, you could just localize it and say the thread-starter created the arguments, since drawbacks were part of the topic.

rtms tew ryu ninjutsu's connection to japanese history is not relevant to this forum.(but because some who love to bring up past converstations like they never have been spoken of before... i will go on) i will admit that the only probable connection sensei tew has to togakure ryu is his training under bussey.(is that japanese enough for you?) but like i have said before and if you want to scroll up with your mouse we are in the modern forum, and indeed rtms tew ryu ninjutsu is a modern style based on ninjutsu concepts. it was founded in america (like baseball), developed here, and doesn't claim to come from japan. like toshindo was developed here.

A false comparison, I'm afraid.

Toshindo was founded by a man who not only has a teaching license in Bujinkan Ninpo but is also a judan with over two decades in the art under his belt. Rick Tew trained for a time with Robert Bussey, someone with less than 5 years in the Bujinkan who never reached godan, never received a teaching license, and constantly attacked Hatsumi-soke's methods even when he was in the Bujinkan.

Also, how much specific training did Robert Bussey actually receive in Togakure ryu itself?? Hard to claim "ninjutsu concepts" without Togakure ryu being involved....

Besides, all of this doesn't change the simple fact that calling an American hybrid art by the name "ninjitsu" is a major problem-starter --- for just the same reasons I outlined in my first post. It may indeed be a great martial art, but the naming is a drawback.

Now excuse me while I practice my Heretic-style Pankration. *chuckle*

Besides, all of this doesn't change the simple fact that calling an American hybrid art by the name "ninjitsu" is a major problem-starter --- for just the same reasons I outlined in my first post. It may indeed be a great martial art, but the naming is a drawback.

although you opinion is strong its not always factual. its nice that you have the liberty to comment on arts/styles you really have no experience in. thats the benefit of forums!:ultracool
bussey himself says that he has is ranking in togakure ryu and bujinkan. *shucks* anyway this is from bussey's website:
He also traveled to Japan on numerous occasions, and, on his first venture, at the age of only 18, and long before the out-break of "Ninja-mania," became a licensed instructor of Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu under Masaaki Hatsumi which, in 1979, established Bussey as a pioneer of Ninjutsu in America. Bussey made history by sponsoring the first open U.S. meeting with Japan-trained instructors in hopes of setting the ground work for an international fellowship. Hatsumi proposed the Bussey would "father" American Ninjutsu as the Bujinkan's top representative. Bussey rejected the idea and instead chose a less conspicuous position by teaching only a handful of people in Nebraska and side-stepping the potential for political conflicts. Bussey was offered and politely turned down master level certification in Ninjutsu on four occasions, which would have ranked him higher than any non-Japanese master in the thousand year history of the art. In Bussey's words, "I felt it would have been unfair to both parties to accept such a position. I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".

It's good that you have so much faith in one of your teacher's teachers' teachers (gee, I hope that come out right) --- but, honestly, I'm not going to continue this line of conversation since it will inevitably lead to a flame war.

Let's just say that's not the story I've heard.... then again, whadda I know?? :rolleyes:

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

If studying an art is a life-long endeavor, can anyone be justified in leaving and forming their own?

What are the implications for people like Ed Parker, who uses the term Kenpo? Is he wrong too?

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

If studying an art is a life-long endeavor, can anyone be justified in leaving and forming their own?

What are the implications for people like Ed Parker, who uses the term Kenpo? Is he wrong too?thank you. exactly my point. bruce lee, ralph severe, all the greats!;)

its jealousy and envy that are eating ninjutsu folk up. ninjutsu whether people like it or not is bigger than just japan and the people there. blame hayes, hollywood, bussey, tew, anyone you want. like hamburgers and chinese food. "global". its no more a secret art that you can only practice in the caves of japan. like karate, kung fu, etc. ninjutsu too has many branches. some now have become distorted and twisted but i think all arts have their bad apples. they're fun to look at and gawke at, but non they less they still exist.
peace

How long should have Robert Bussey stayed with the Bujinkan before splitting and naming his own style of Ninjutsu?

Well, unless he was granted menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninpo, then it would be disingenous to claim that what is being taught is "ninjutsu".

its jealousy and envy that are eating ninjutsu folk up. ninjutsu whether people like it or not is bigger than just japan and the people there. blame hayes, hollywood, bussey, tew, anyone you want. like hamburgers and chinese food. "global". its no more a secret art that you can only practice in the caves of japan. like karate, kung fu, etc. ninjutsu too has many branches. some now have become distorted and twisted but i think all arts have their bad apples. they're fun to look at and gawke at, but non they less they still exist.

Gee, talk about misinterpretation.... :rolleyes:

Bussey was ranked a Yondan, in the days when the training was pretty hard I would assume. Today a Yondan gives you Menkyo, sort of. As long as you have a Shidoshi over you, if I am not correct.
I have seen some of Busseys stuff, what exactly is wrong with it?
Higuchi who is now also a "reject" and everyone says knows nothing was going to be an ambassador of the Ninja arts as well, that was directly from a book I read quoted from Hatsumi.
Unfortunatly, credibility is an issue here. There are a dumpload of charlatains out there claiming to be Ninja masters. But also within the Kans, there is a lost control of quality. I have seen people with menkyo that move like yellow belts, in the Kan. I have met some amazing people too in the Kan. But that being said, being in the Kan does not mean you are learning anything better or more effective.
Some of the people that the internet warriors denounce I have met and trained with personally, their talents far exceeed many of their detractors.
Exponentially.
I find it funny (mind you I am not an authority on this either) that we argue about Japanese traditionalism and the art itself yet most of the Indies I meet are much more versed in Japanses culture than their American Kan counterparts. So becuase your particular lineage comes from Japan, and by the way isn't accepted by many Japanese authorities on the issue, does it make it more legit.
This is just my opinion, and I am a nobody. I am an ex kan, who is now in an indie org. Mostly due to the politics and back stabbing. I felt like a hypocrit staying there. Now I train with groups of the most amazing folks that get shot down all the time.
I would invite people to come see them sometime and detract them to their face. I don't mean that in violence, even in discussion.
Some are more flashy and colourful yes, no doubt. They have effective systems though. Devoted to their schools and their students, that is really what impresses me.
If anyone wishes to discuss the merits of a particular school, I have likely met them and trained with them, ask me.

There is my .2c Canadian funds

Bussey was ranked a Yondan, in the days when the training was pretty hard I would assume. Today a Yondan gives you Menkyo, sort of.

Not at all. There is no rank that correlates to a menkyo kaidensha. The two are completely unrelated.

A yondan, among others, would be a shidoshi-ho. If I am not mistaken.

Fair enough for the correction, but a shidoshi ho, is liscenced (menkyo) to teach under a shidoshi am I not correct. Or does Menkyo not mean a teaching liscence and Menkyo Kaiden not a full proficiecy cert so to speak. Sorry thats how it was explained to me by my Bujinkan Shidoshi

Ah, methinks I misinterpreted your prior post. My apologies. :asian:

Fair enough for the correction, but a shidoshi ho, is liscenced (menkyo) to teach under a shidoshi am I not correct. Or does Menkyo not mean a teaching liscence and Menkyo Kaiden not a full proficiecy cert so to speak. Sorry thats how it was explained to me by my Bujinkan Shidoshi"Menkyo" in Japanese means "License" in English. You can have an "Unten Menkyo" which is a "driver's license"...that's all that "menkyo" means. A kyu grade certificate is a "menkyo". A dan grade certificate is a "menkyo". "Menkyo Kaiden" is the name of a certificate in Japanese martial arts schools that signifies that training is "completed". It doesn't mean you stop training. To the best of my knowledge, in the Bujinkan, only a few Japanese shihan and one man from France have received "Menkyo Kaiden" in any of the Bujinkan arts. Usually a scroll or handwritten book with a description of the techniques and philosphies of the school is given along with a "Menkyo Kaiden". Sometimes though, in other Japanese arts, something hand made by the teacher, like a tsuba (sword guard) or a painting serves as a certificate of "menkyo kaiden" although I have never heard of this in the Bujinkan. :asian:

Thank you for the clarification. Now I know.

Higuchi who is now also a "reject" and everyone says knows nothing was going to be an ambassador of the Ninja arts as well, that was directly from a book I read quoted from Hatsumi.

What book and what page number?

I do not trust your memory Dave. I have read all of the books by Hatsumi you could have and I do not remember seeing that tidbit. I have also asked about Higuchi in Japan. Trust me, no one I talked to here will vouch that he trained in Japan like he claims.

Well, unless he was granted menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninpo, then it would be disingenous to claim that what is being taught is "ninjutsu".


I thought Menkyo Kaiden was specific to the Ryu? If so, that would invalidate Mr. Bussey from using the Togakure or Bujinkan names, but not necessarily Ninjutsu, correct? Isn't this where we get the "Modern" distinction?

Just asking. I do find all of this very interesting as it pertains to other styles as well.

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeff

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeffso no one should learn from him then? thats it i'm gonna write him right now! if hatsumi doesn't approve (although he did back in the day) then i personally am going to write all the students to cease and desist! :rofl::rolleyes:

the fact is he still teaches effective ninjutsu and his students are top notch in my book. does it really matter that he really didn't finish conforming to hatsumi?
i refer back to this: I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".
peace

The point is, he never had a shidoshi (teaching) menkyo, much less menkyo kaiden. The claim on Bussey's website is false, period.

Jeff

Perhaps his claim of a "teaching license" is debateable, but the real point is "when can you use the term Ninjutsu to describe your own style?" OR Karate, or Ju Jutsu?

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

While the roots run long and deep for some ryu, does this not allow for new ones?

Bussey's claims are what most are stuck on, rather than accepting people with valid training who pioneer their styles. (I personally would not follow somone who openly lies.)

There were 50+ Koga ryu. Did they all spontaneously emerge or did they have to ask permission from a particular source before teaching? It's my understanding Menkyo Kaiden was not around since the first days either.

Just some thoughts.

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

While the roots run long and deep for some ryu, does this not allow for new ones?
Just some thoughts.traditionalist claim that hatsumi is teaching a modern version of what he taught back then (refer back to skh thread). now if thats the case then only a handful can really claim to be traditional like hayes, bussey, novan, etc. the rest have learned a modern version of what was taught back then.

imo ninjutsu does allow for new systems to develope. like i stated before some will be twisted and distorted. some will come from disgruntled practicioners, and some will take the concepts and develope new ones. i believe whatever it is they should be honest and up front not claiming to learn ninjutsu in a dream or other nonsense.
peace

I thought Menkyo Kaiden was specific to the Ryu? If so, that would invalidate Mr. Bussey from using the Togakure or Bujinkan names, but not necessarily Ninjutsu, correct? Isn't this where we get the "Modern" distinction?

Yes, Menkyo Kaiden is specific to individual ryuha.

The shidoshi-ho and shidoshi licenses, however, refer to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu as a whole. You can teach the Bujinkan method without necessarily making menkyo kaiden in any of the ryuha.

Seeing as how Togakure ryu is currently the only publicly-taught legitimate ninjutsu ryuha (although other ryuha, like Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and Kukishin ryu contain some ninjutsu in their teachings, I believe), it is very disingenuous to pass off anything else as "ninjutsu" in and of itself. Ninpo, however, is another animal altogether...

The "modern" distinction, I would say, comes from people that misuse or misunderstand the term "ninjutsu" altogether. There are currently only three actual ninjutsu ryuha, only one of which has been publicly taught (to my knowledge, anyway). Not everything done in the Takamatsu-den is "ninjutsu".

But, hey, that's all just my opinion. :asian:

so no one should learn from him then? thats it i'm gonna write him right now! if hatsumi doesn't approve (although he did back in the day) then i personally am going to write all the students to cease and desist!

Gee. Way to misinterpret what's actually being said. :rolleyes:

At no point did any of us say you shouldn't learn under Bussey. We are simply questioning his claims (which, to be frank, are bunk).

I refer back to this:
Quote:
I have absolutely no regret, because I would simply have helped spread an ancient art filled with illusions, sterile philosophies, and limitations".
n

Apparently, his definition of "limited", "illusory", and "sterile" is "non-Christian". Which, really, is what this all comes back to.

Perhaps his claim of a "teaching license" is debateable, but the real point is "when can you use the term Ninjutsu to describe your own style?" OR Karate, or Ju Jutsu?

Well, one would at least expect it to have some kind of connection to the schools that teach those arts --- and not just a hybrid American style a 20-something cooked up.

Is "Modern Ninjutsu" a correct term then? Does Hatsumi not teach a modern style of his own interpretation along with the traditional?

It is my understanding that the kata change. The principles do not.

And, again, the only "ninjutsu" being taught is from Togakure ryu (and possibly parts of Kukishin ryu, I dunno).

There were 50+ Koga ryu. Did they all spontaneously emerge or did they have to ask permission from a particular source before teaching? It's my understanding Menkyo Kaiden was not around since the first days either.

To be honest, the terms "shinobi no mono" and "shinobijutsu" was probably applied to these groups by outside sources. Its not likely they originally refered to themselves as such. But, I guess the names stuck.

traditionalist claim that hatsumi is teaching a modern version of what he taught back then (refer back to skh thread). now if thats the case then only a handful can really claim to be traditional like hayes, bussey, novan, etc. the rest have learned a modern version of what was taught back then.

If by "modern" you actually mean "continually evolving, developing, and adapting", then sure.

Laterz all.

If by "modern" you actually mean "continually evolving, developing, and adapting", then sure.

Laterz all.and totally effective, awesome in real combat, etc., etc. way to promote your style eh?:rolleyes:

peace

Gee. Way to misinterpret what's actually being said. :rolleyes:

At no point did any of us say you shouldn't learn under Bussey. We are simply questioning his claims (which, to be frank, are bunk).
At least someone is reading what I posted without trying to put a spin on it. Bussey is not licensed to teach any of the Bujinkan schools. If you like what he's doing, great. Personally, I think his stuff relies way too much on speed and power and won't work unless you're both stronger and faster than your opponent.

Jeff

It seems to me that the term "Ninjutsu" is soley a marketing ploy. The actual historic ninja didn't call themselves ninja or their art ninjutsu. Hatsumi doesn't even teach ninjutsu in its pure form anymore. IMO there is nothing wrong with using the term ninjutsu to describe your art if you want to stree the stereotypical qualities that are attributed to that word.

FW

I am of course obviously biased on the topic, as some are on the other

Don, I will bring the book into my office and scan the quote. I only saw it last week and could be a little off but not that off.
But regardless I will bring it in.
I mean that doesn't mean the author of the book isn't quoting out of his butt either but it looked interesting. Not his butt...the book.

Not his butt...the book.i almost fell on the floor in front of the owner here. man that quote almost got me fired... i was laughing so hard! :rofl:

Glad I was a source of a smile for you.
Hey are there any RTMS folks on the east coast. There is a good indie summit going on in March.

Which summit is that? Any details? :)

There will be a summit for the independent systems in April in Pennsylvania. Good price too, all inclusive for food and training

For more details send me an email at bujingodai@yahoo.ca

Glad I was a source of a smile for you.
Hey are there any RTMS folks on the east coast. There is a good indie summit going on in March.yeah actually they are all over the usa! where...? well i would have to find out for certain, and how many.

peace

It would be cool to have them at summit.

there used to be a forum on the website but unforunately to many trolls got on and they shut it down. that would have been one way to track them down. some of them are at the college right now in training. they are in phase right now. i trained with them the other day. they were from all over the place.
peace

and totally effective, awesome in real combat, etc., etc. way to promote your style eh?

If you want.

At least someone is reading what I posted without trying to put a spin on it.

You're welcome. :p

It seems to me that the term "Ninjutsu" is soley a marketing ploy.

Ehhhhhh.... not entirely. :rolleyes:

The actual historic ninja didn't call themselves ninja or their art ninjutsu.

Ummmmm.... yeah they did, actually.

The Bansenshukai and Shoninki, both historical ninjutsu treatises dating to the 16th and 17th centuries, refer to the "art" practiced as shinobijutsu and its practitioners as shinobi no mono. The Shoninki even goes a little bit into distinguishing shinobi no mono from nusubito (thieves).

Hatsumi doesn't even teach ninjutsu in its pure form anymore.

I don't know if Hatsumi-soke ever taught "pure ninjutsu", whatever that might mean. The most basic techniques of the Bujinkan, for example, the sanshin no kata and kihon happo, come from Gyokko ryu --- which by no means is a ninjutsu ryuha (unless somebody knows somethin' I don't).

IMO there is nothing wrong with using the term ninjutsu to describe your art if you want to stree the stereotypical qualities that are attributed to that word.

And if you don't mind the fraudulent basis of your school being questioned. :uhyeah:

Well, laterz all.

Been waiting for someone to bring up this point. Basically, a major difference in traditional/classical and modern is the method used to teach the art.

In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus. You, as student, must go through the rigid structured training sequences. The sequences are very close to the sequences in the scrolls of the schools. As you go up in rank, you are taught more "complicated" techniques, throws, chokes etc. Don't really see a weapon til you're almost a blackbelt (takes years). Everyone (almost internationally) goes through the same scroll of throws, scroll of yawara.

In Kenjitsu, as another example, you basically are being taught the sword use of the samurai. Again, ancient "tradition." So, you're infused with what was allowed and not allowed in the Samurai traditions. Same in Karate, Archery etc. It takes a long time (years) to go from beginner to teacher and its all tradition without much regard to todays "efficiency."

Looking at Kenjitsu. DO NOT HOLD THAT SWORD IN YOUR LEFT HAND. Why? Tradition. Modern, when confronted with an identified Kenjitsuist, put the sword in your left hand and cut him twice. He just doesn't understand the new angles of attack. (Read all this in a book and on the web(smile). Or, cut the fingers on his grip. He will not put the sword in the other hand with the good fingers, he'll just drop the weapon and run. In Jujitsu/Judo, and in most other "traditional/classical" schools I've been involved, trained or worked out with, if you have a physical problem, it's hard for you as these schools traditionally, don't make room for the handicapped. Example, you have some type of damaged leg or knee and can't bend the knee. You then cannot go through the first scroll of Nage Waza. But, you can use the advanced throws where you are on one knee with the injured leg straight out. Sensei will not allow you use nor will he teach you the advanced throws BEFORE learning the firt scroll. In Kenjitsu, YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT HAND. Tradition dictates you go somewhere else. You will not be taught with everyone else.

Summary: Traditional/Classical Arts: Long, drawn out training similar to ancient. Modern. Deal with what works TODAY. Its kind of like basketball centers. Old School, you shoot the three, you set on the bench the rest of the game. Centers get rebounds, shoot hook shot up close, a pass the ball to the guards. New School, grab that rebound and go coast-to-coast or pull-up and shoot the three (Shaq).

Just my opinion from an extremely limited experience.

In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus.

You obviously have no knowledge of the subject matter and are just trying to push your agenda at the sake of truth again.

In the Bujinkan dojos I train at, the focus is getting home at the end of the day alive and in one piece. If what you wrote were true, then how the heck can Hatumi have come out with a book on pistol fighting.

Again, a person with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter and who is quite willing to lie to push that agenda.

You obviously have no knowledge of the subject matter and are just trying to push your agenda at the sake of truth again.

In the Bujinkan dojos I train at, the focus is getting home at the end of the day alive and in one piece. If what you wrote were true, then how the heck can Hatumi have come out with a book on pistol fighting.

Again, a person with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter and who is quite willing to lie to push that agenda.Quote:
Originally Posted by sojobow
In the Kans (i.e., Koden, kodo, etc), the Jujitsu and Judo schools, tradition is the main focus.


For one with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter, I do know this:

Koden{Kan} and Kodo{Kan} are Jujitsu and Judo systems. If your focus in Bujinkan is getting home in one piece at the end of the day, just stay home period. Put the Sakki away and help me find the Hachi Tengu.

Put the Sakki away and help me find the Hachi Tengu.

They don't exist, never have. You really have no knowledge what so ever about the subject of traditional Japanese systems or the way things are done. Despite this, you must spend a few hours everyday posting stuff that has no value.

On the matter of how traditional "kan" training goes, you should at least try to experience some of the arts you use as examples. But that would mean you are actually interested in finding the truth. Who here thinks Sojobow is in this for the truth?

They don't exist, never have. You really have no knowledge what so ever about the subject of traditional Japanese systems or the way things are done.You're right, I have absolutely no knowledge of your "traditional Japanese systems." However, I do have years of experience in "Classical" Japanese systems as in the Kan's I named above. So, you can ellaborate all you want on your traditional systems, I'll deal with the Classical systems that I have first-hand experience in.

....
Looking at Kenjitsu. DO NOT HOLD THAT SWORD IN YOUR LEFT HAND. Why? Tradition. Modern, when confronted with an identified Kenjitsuist, put the sword in your left hand and cut him twice. He just doesn't understand the new angles of attack. (Read all this in a book and on the web(smile)...I didn't feel it was necessary to quote the whole post to make my point. In modern kenDO you do not hold the shinai with the left hand on top, or with only the left hand. Why? It's a sport. Taking a look at "traditional" kenjutsu, sometimes the left hand IS on top, and sometimes ONLY the left hand is used to hold the sword. Example- In Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu, in the second set of naiden (for lack of a better term "inner teaching") techniques entitled Ku Ka No Tachi (Sword Techniques in Nine Parts), in the very first technique, Hissho (Certain Victory) the "defender" changes from a right hand on top to a left hand on top grip before advancing on the opponent. Again in Shinkage ryu Kenjutsu, in the group of Gaiden (Outer Teaching, for lack of a better term) techniques known as Jokakusei Chudan JuYon Sei (Fortress Posture Mid Level 14 Techniques), in the 13th technique Jokakusei Jun Ura o Fusegi Harai , the technique is finished by cutting the opponent's foot off at the ankle with a single left handed stroke. There are more like this, but I'll save everyone the boredom and quit here. There are photos of these techniques in a book called "Shinkage ryu Sword Techniques Vol. 2" by Tadashige Watanabe.

In my opinion, it would be a misconception to believe that Japanese sword schools only put the right hand on top.

This next part is just conjecture I've come up with on my own. Where did this stereotype come from? I think it's because sport kendo is alot more popular than kenjutsu in Japan these days. When sport kendo was created, it was for anyone to play. Rules were created where the only target areas were the helmet, gauntlets and chest protector, the most heavily armored places on samurai armor. Kenjutsu targets on the other hand, aren't for scoring points, they're for getting around armor and/or incapacitating the opponent so they are unable to counterattack. In my opinion, the samurai probably created the rules in this way so if they ever crossed live blades with a non-samurai trained in sport kendo, that person would be at a disadvantage, instictively attacking the samurai's most heavily armored areas. But that's just my educated guess.:asian:

In my opinion, it would be a misconception to believe that Japanese sword schools only put the right hand on top.

I can understand if someone would believe that if their knowledge of kenjutsu was pretty shallow. I myself can only think of three arts off the top of my head that switch from right to left hand forward. It can be pretty rare. And the skills are not taught at first. You need to get a base down before you start learning tricks and such like that. Most people would learn right on toip of left.

Which kind of ties into the theme of this thread. How many people that start their "modern" form of an art bother to stick around to go through the basics completely and then learn the semi-advanced stuff like putting the left hand forward? On the other hand (pun not intended) there are those who read or see somewhat advanced techniques like that and try to emulate them without a good deal of experience with the important basics.

Miyamoto Musashi started killing people when he was in his teens. Despite this, in his book he wrote that he only started to truely understand martial arts when he was about 50. Yagyu Muneyori wrote soemthign to the same effect. And the greatest samurai killer, Tsukuhara Bokuden, took his third musha shugyo where he actually started to teach when he was about that age.

So, how many creators of "modern" ninjutsu are within two decades of hitting that age when they promote themselves to master status? Three decades?

Something to think about in terms of the drawbacks of studying modern ninjutsu. And that is not even counting the chance that you may be studying with a fraud, or someone who learned from a fruad.

Something to think about in terms of the drawbacks of studying modern ninjutsu. And that is not even counting the chance that you may be studying with a fraud, or someone who learned from a fruad.i think it boils down to faith! if you believe in you art... (i've said this before it think) and you believe that it is superior... then it is superior for you. the same goes with instructors. lets take the "amazing dux" :rolleyes: ; sensei said that dux is a much different person now than he was 20 years ago(for the worse). but, we know that dux has his followers that are loyal and think/believe what he teaches is superior. more power to them i say. does that still make him a fraud...? probably. does that make what he does right...? probably not! but his students are loyal to him and his "theories".
re: sword. once again i will only speak what i know (if i have read it... i will state so), we train with both hands, two hands, one hand, reverse grip, whatever. i do agree that there should be a well founded practicioner in the basics before he goes on and starts claiming that he can teach you how to fight with the blade between your tabi!;) so there you have it my opinion!
But that's just my educated guess.:asian:that was a nice guess!:asian:
peace

For one with an agenda, no knowledge of the subject matter, I do know this:

Koden{Kan} and Kodo{Kan} are Jujitsu and Judo systems.

Congratulatons. You "know" something that any 9 year old with a high-speed internet connection could find out in 2 minutes.

In any event, you certainly don't seem to "know" the correct transliteration of jujutsu into English. Surprise, surprise.

transliteration of jujutsu into English. Surprise, surprise.whats with this new word... "transliteration"? i don't think i have ever heard it before martial talk! hee hee! :) sounds like "word a day" in here!:rofl: now spell... ;)


peace

Enson:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=transliteration

Heh. Learn somethin' new everyday. :asian:

would it mean:





trans·lit·er·ate http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron.jpg (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/T0320400.wav) Listen: (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/T0320400.wav) [ trhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/abreve.gifns-lhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/ibreve.gifthttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/prime.gifhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/schwa.gif-rhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/amacr.gifthttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/lprime.gif, trhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/abreve.gifnz- ]
tr.v. trans·lit·er·at·ed, trans·lit·er·at·ing, trans·lit·er·ates

To represent (letters or words) in the corresponding characters of another alphabet. ?
i guess you do learn something everyday!:ultracool
peace

I touched on this subject in the general section under Traditional/Neo:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=287198#post287198

As for the transliteration issue:

ninjutsu = ninjitsu only if you are using two different romanization systems. If you are being consistent, and if you are using the most commonly accepted way of transliterating Japanese, then they are vastly different.

nin = shinobi = 忍　= endurance, patience, stealth
jutsu = 術 = art or set of techniques
jitsu =　実 = truth; reality

That's why I think it's so funny (because of the irony if you follow me) that some of these modern/neo (read: non-authentic) styles call themselves ninjitsu. If you don't get the joke, I'm sorry.

I'm not even going to discuss effectiveness, or believing your art is superior on faith. I guess to the practicioner, those things would be benefits.

But the drawback remains, as heretic plainly stated - repeatedly (without being argumentative) that arts that were not created in Japan that have Japanese names (especially when they spell them incorrectly) are misleading.

For everything else I feel about this, please refer to the post I referenced above.

Thanks for your patience and understanding,

S.S.

shizen,

alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study. that is okay. i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe.

in rtms we consider what we do ninjutsu concepts and not anything like traditional. we have integrated many techniques in our school that work for us. others we don't. if you want to call it "mixed"... okay.

there are actually students that come in from other schools that help give a different spin on things. they use what they have learned and put a ninjutsu twist on it to make it, in their own words, "more effective". i have never studied anything outside of rtms. what i have learned has been strictly under the instruction of sensei or instructors. we believe that tew ryu should be something that comes from within. each and every student will have their own way of doing a technique and none should be identical. we don't make clone warriors but total warriors... if you get my joke. what works for you... well use it. where ever you have holes we help fill in.

its hard to explain all in one post but i hope you get the difference now between the two sides. good info posted from you though. keep it up.

peace

alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study. that is okay.

No, its "biased" from an actual understanding and knowledge of the Japanese language. Last time I checked, both 'nin', 'jutsu', and 'jitsu' are Japanese words and concepts.

This is not a matter of "well, your art says this and mine says this". Its a matter of plagiarizing a Japanese term for recognition from the public.

i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe.

The only underlying "way" I have seen to unite any of the modern groups together is that the concept of ninjutsu is "any martial art you decide to call by the name 'ninjutsu'". I can consider kenjutsu a "concept", and decide to call my polka dancing school a "kenjutsu school" --- dudn't make it so, bucky.

*chuckle* Laterz. :rolleyes:

Enson: "shizen, alot of your post is mostley biased by the art you study."

How do you figure? What have I said that is not objective fact?


"i personally (as i have mentioned before) consider ninjutsu as a concept. a way of fighting/living etc. that is what most of us modern schools believe."

I understand that. I have no problem with another art being influenced/inspired by ninjutsu, heck, I don't even really mind that much if they call what they do ninjutsu (if McDonalds can call what they serve, "hamburgers," then why not?).

However, the fact remains, that ninjutsu is a Japanese art with a specific definition. It is made up of many concepts that are common to many martial arts. Saying that your art is influenced or inspired by ninjutsu is fine. Calling it "ninjutsu" when it isn't is misleading . . . but really not that big of a deal.

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that. No one would have a problem. "Tew Ryu Ninjutsu (or Ninjitsu - I forget how they spell it)" Just sounds silly.

But then again, the American language is completely derived from words stolen from other languages, so whatever.

heretic888: "Its a matter of plagiarizing a Japanese term for recognition from the public."

It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."

Enson: "in rtms we consider what we do ninjutsu concepts and not anything like traditional. we have integrated many techniques in our school that work for us. others we don't. if you want to call it "mixed"... okay."

I totally respect RTMS. I think it is a really cool martial arts system. They don't mislead people as much as some neo-ninja schools that just flat out lie and say they are teaching ancient ninjutsu arts passed down through secret masters and other silly stuff like that.

heretic888: "I can consider kenjutsu a 'concept', and decide to call my polka dancing school a '"kenjutsu school'"

You have a polka school? That's awesome! :D

Enson: "there are actually students that come in from other schools that help give a different spin on things. they use what they have learned and put a ninjutsu twist on it to make it, in their own words, "more effective". i have never studied anything outside of rtms. what i have learned has been strictly under the instruction of sensei or instructors. we believe that tew ryu should be something that comes from within. each and every student will have their own way of doing a technique and none should be identical. we don't make clone warriors but total warriors... if you get my joke. what works for you... well use it. where ever you have holes we help fill in."

That's beautiful - and guess what? It's the same in the Buj'. We don't try to create clones, everyone adapts the art to fit themselves, not the other way around. When others come in from other styles, we examine their techniques and strategies and try to incorporate them into our taijutsu. What often happens though, is that after enough testing, we find that those other techniques and strategies don't do anything to improve what we already do - even with "a ninjutsu twist on it" - so we tend to make note of it and move on.

"its hard to explain all in one post but i hope you get the difference now between the two sides."

I understand. I'm just trying to help people realize why so many traditional artists have problems/confusion with some modern styles - and that it does not come from bias; it comes from an educated knowledge of the facts.



Have fun and be safe, and keep training!

But then again, the American language is completely derived from words stolen from other languages, so whatever.........Have fun and be safe, and keep training!
BINGO. Why most of us don't understand this point is the cause of all this cyber-screaming. It's like the French jumping on Americans for using the term "bouldvard" in a street-name like Tokyo Boulevard. In the West, Ninjutsu means something altogether different than Ninjutsu in Japanese.

That doesn't make it any more correct.

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that. No one would have a problem. "Tew Ryu Ninjutsu (or Ninjitsu - I forget how they spell it)" Just sounds silly.!this is just to expound on that:

rick tew's martial science or rtms is the name of the school/style. it is a combination of ninjutsu, tkd, kickboxing, and other arts. not subjecting itself under the rules of these arts (i.e. using a "ninja punch" or "tkd kick"), it sets itself apart by not having any rules and using what works to survive another day.

because of the overall ninjutsu influence and application of ninjutsu concepts it is also called (historically/presently) tew ryu ninjutsu or tew ryu ninjitsu (for those that don't care about kanji or benji or any transliteration;)). rtms does not claim to teach ninjutsu as it is taught in japan, but teach an american modern version of it. for that reason we do not affiliate with any japanese ryu, but only stick with our ryu started by sensei.

peace

BINGO. Why most of us don't understand this point is the cause of all this cyber-screaming. It's like the French jumping on Americans for using the term "bouldvard" in a street-name like Tokyo Boulevard. In the West, Ninjutsu means something altogether different than Ninjutsu in Japanese.

I'm afraid that is a rather weak analogy, actually.

In both France and the United States, "boulevard" refers to a street or road. It doesn't "mean something different" in those respective countries; its just a term the Americans adopted as an alternate name for "street" or "road".

The same cannot be said of "ninjutsu". "Ninjutsu" means something quite different in Japan than it does among most of the neo-groups in America.

In Japan, "ninjutsu" has more to do with things like philosophy, tactics, strategy, 'truth and falsehood', stealing-in methods, nightfighting, hit-and-run scatter tactics, silent infiltration, espionage, and so forth... that is ninjutsu. This is why, in the Bujinkan, only three of the ryuha are correctly referred to as "ninjutsu" (with only Togakure ryu actually being publicly taught, from what I've heard).

I've also been told that ninjutsu, per se, is far more conceptual and tactical in nature than most other ryuha....

This is a major distinction that most of the neo-groups, including the Tew ryu folks, usually fail to grasp. "Ninjutsu" cannot really be said to honestly apply to in-depth teachings of hand-to-hand combat or battlefield weaponry; it may "polish off" or "add to" a prior training in those subjects, but it would be quite odd to see a ninjutsu ryuha teaching them in-depth itself.

As I said before, a lot of the confusion here is that the neo-groups don't actually seem to know that ninjutsu is in the first place, but then retroactively apply the term to their art(s). This doesn't stem from a different "cultural understanding", it stems from ignorance.

Of course, there's ninpo, too. But, that's another subject altogether... :asian:

This is a major distinction that most of the neo-groups, including the Tew ryu folks, usually fail to grasp. "Ninjutsu" cannot really be said to honestly apply to in-depth teachings of hand-to-hand combat or battlefield weaponry; it may "polish off" or "add to" a prior training in those subjects, but it would be quite odd to see a ninjutsu ryuha teaching them in-depth itself.:asian:its fun to see you comment on systems and styles that you have limited knowledge of. rtms does not represent the neo groups in their enterity... just a small portion of it.
what is taught in rtms is just that... what is taught. we do not say that we are right for everyone else... just what we do.
peace

For example, "Tew's Martial Science" - that's a wonderful American name for an American art. It is accurate and descriptive. Now under that title, one could say "We teach x, y, and z, and arts / strategies inspired by and influenced by ninjutsu." If more modern styles did that....
It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."
I couldn't agree with you more. Someone pass me a taco...

its fun to see you comment on systems and styles that you have limited knowledge of. rtms does not represent the neo groups in their enterity... just a small portion of it.
what is taught in rtms is just that... what is taught. we do not say that we are right for everyone else... just what we do.

Yup, it was a generalization. Unfortunately, it was an accurate one.

What characterizes a lot of the "neo groups" is that they use the term ninjutsu (or ninjitsu) to refer to fairly conventional and straightforward combat methods. Very little, if any, of the "ninjutsu" that is generally taught is geared toward things like guerilla warfare, infiltration, sabotage, nightfighting, and so forth --- most of it is "modern" self-defense, and rightly so (given out current cultural climate).

In all likelihood, a lot of this "ninjutsu = everything" mentality comes from the '80's, when the entire corpus of what was taught in the Bujinkan was referred to as "ninjutsu", and shortly after that to "ninpo taijutsu". There's a reason that's no longer the case.

Laterz.

Then there's good ol' Ronald "Way of the Winds" Duncan. I didn't know there were any systems of "shinobi-no-jitsu" with predominantly aiki-based unarmed techniques...

rick tew's martial science or rtms is the name of the school/style. it is a combination of ninjutsu, tkd, kickboxing, and other arts.

Uh, how can it have ninjutsu in it? Where did Rick Tew learn ninjutsu?

Is he saying that he learned ninjutsu from Frank Dux? Dux claimed to have learned ninjutsu from a Japanese teacher, but no one of any intelligence believes him. The Frank Dux web site says that Tew and Dux are still on good terms, so is Tew claiming that he learned real Japanese ninjutsu from Dux?

Or is he saying that he learned it from Robert Bussey? Bussey trained in Bujinkan. Bujinkan has ninjutsu in it. But I see nothing that indicates that Bussey learned the fighting techniques of the Togakure ryu or anything else ninja specific. He certainly did not retain what he did and changed the contents as soon as he set up shop. He added things that run counter to the central principles of arts like the Togakure ryu. I have a tenth dan friend that started out in his schools before changing to Bujinkan and will vouch from personal experience that to get good in Bujinkan he had to forget much of wha the learned in Bussey's school. And Bussey eventually gave up even using the term ninjutsu about the time Ninja Magazine went out of business.

Let me take a step back here and explain that there are unarmed fighting techniques of ninjutsu in the Togakure ryu. They do have their own charecteristics. If you look at what the ninja did and what they needed, then these techniques (called the tonsogata) fill the need. Just as the art used by Japanese police fill their need to restrain suspects, and the WWII combatives of Rex Applegate fill their need for simple, lethal moves for a soldier with limited time and no worry about excessive violence, the tonsogata fills the need the ninja would have faced. I do not agree that you need to learn things like running espinonage nets in order to study ninjutsu- but doing things like the tonsogata that is in line with what the ninja needed seems a bare minimum requirement.

So when I say that what Robert Bussey and Frank Dux do not teach ninjutsu as it is taught in Japan, I mean that they do things that the ninja of old would not have needed. So how can the claim be made that Rick Tew learned ninjutsu when neither of his teachers even seemed to have learned anything like the Tonsogata?

And I have always been quite clear that I see a wide difference in what Rick Tew does and what is called ninjutsu in Japan. I do not consider him a fraud like others I can say that about because I can point to no lie that I know he has made. AFAIK he has backed up all his claims of who he trained with, etc. But this forum was made for people like him who use the ninjutsu name, but have no real link to Japan and/or do things differently from Japan. I have no problem with that as long as we are clear. But again, how can the claim be made that Tew ryu incorperates ninjutu when Tew can't point to ever learning things like the tonsogata?

Nice post, Don. :)

Just one lil' thing...

I do not agree that you need to learn things like running espinonage nets in order to study ninjutsu- but doing things like the tonsogata that is in line with what the ninja needed seems a bare minimum requirement.

Oops. That may have been a mischaracterization on my part. If so, I apologize. :asian:

I would agree, though, that to learn "ninjutsu" you really should be studying to handle the kind of situations that feudal-age spies, saboteurs, and guerillas would find themselves in (which, at the very least, would be stuff like the tonsogata that Don mentioned). So-called "modern American self-defense", while it may be very practical and appropriate for our day and age, cannot be construed as "ninjutsu".

In any event, the line I've been usually told regarding all this is that "ninjutsu" (a la Togakure ryu) is geared more towards "adding to", "topping off", or "going beyond" the bujutsu learned in previous school(s) (a la Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu) --- for example, adding heavy elements of kyojitsu tenkan ho (among other things). Thus, it would be odd to be claiming to learn "ninjutsu" in your very first lessons, IMO.

Well, that's how its been explained to me, anyway. Laterz. :asian:

Uh, how can it have ninjutsu in it? Where did Rick Tew learn ninjutsu?So when I say that what Robert Bussey and Frank Dux do not teach ninjutsu as it is taught in Japan, I mean that they do things that the ninja of old would not have needed. So how can the claim be made that Rick Tew learned ninjutsu when neither of his teachers even seemed to have learned anything like the Tonsogata?
?that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...
your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof. if another of our favorites that also post on modern were to say such a thing he would be bashed for 3 pages.
i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.
the claims he makes is because he feels he recieved legitimate ninjutsu training from bussey. if that sets wrong with you... shucks!
what dux claims with his connection to sensei is just that claims. tew left because of being disillusioned (sp?) by dux. sensei has said things re: dux that i care not to mention on a public forum.
oh yeah... good post!
peace

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...
Neither is most of the Bujinkan followers around the world.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training.
Actually, you need to perfect your taijutsu before you can begin to study ninjutsu in-depth.

Neither is most of the Bujinkan followers around the world. not according to some.


Actually, you need to perfect your taijutsu before you can begin to study ninjutsu in-depth. very informative... thanks.

peace

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...

Which goes full circle to the point I made in my very first post on this thread --- that the "neo" groups tend to use a term to describe their art(s) in such a way that is misleading, contradictory, and confusing. That's a substantial drawback, IMO.

Using "ninjutsu" to refer to "modern self-defense" methods would basically be akin to calling shoot-fighting a form of Hwarang-do.

your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof. if another of our favorites that also post on modern were to say such a thing he would be bashed for 3 pages.

Sounds to me like you're misconstruing what Don actually said, Enson.

I believe the point that he's trying to make is that, as far as "ninjutsu" is concerned, Frank Dux is a fraud and Robert Bussey never learned Togakure ryu in-depth.

The problem is that in the early 80's, the Bujinkan tended to refer to the entire corpus of what was taught as "ninjutsu" with everything tending to be referred to as Togakure ryu Ninjutsu by name (even though they may have come from other ryuha). Later, it was changed to "ninpo taijutsu". Now, it is called "budo taijutsu".

Bussey split from the Bujinkan at a time when everything was blanketed as "ninjutsu", which is a bit misleading. Thus, he probably took that label with him when he went on to teach others.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard.

Actually, what Don said is a pretty balanced and reasonable standard for "ninjutsu" if you are at all concerned with authenticity and accuracy, as opposed to the constant revising of definitions that are seen in the neo organizations.

you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.

I don't recall anything at all about Don mentioning learning Japanese. IMO, this is projectionism on your part.

not according to some.

Uhhh.... care to give some names?? It would be interesting to know who it is that thinks the "majority" of Bujinkan members are in Japan...

Laterz.

that would be a great post, but unfortunatley its on the wrong side(modern). sensei doesn't claim to teach things as they are in japan... because well we are not in japan...

I was not talking about what he taught, I was talking about what he learned. More specifically, I was asking how he could say that he had incorperated ninjutsu when I cannot see how he has ever learned it. If he wants to call what he does ninjutsu, then that is fine. But to imply that he has ever learned the art seems a bit decietful. In other words, if he said that he took what he thought the ninja would do today and that is why he calls it ninjutsu, then that is honest. But to say that his Martial Science is comprised of ninjutsu is saying that he has learned ninjutsu.

your post of having a friend that knows a guy, that knows a guy sounds like an urban legend, and has no merit without proof.

You misunderstood. My friend was the one that trained with Bussey dojo. It was not a friend of my friend or anything like that. And he is not the only one to say that what Bussey does is not like anything done in the Bujinkan. Bussey himself has said that when he claimed to have "modernized/improved" it.

i'm so glad that your requirements for what a ninjutsu pracitcioner should know is not the standard. you would have us all reading and writing japanese before we got any real training. a language that is not used at all in america...imo.

Please don't get so defensive and start trying to imply I am saying things that I am not. I do think that since Japan was the birthplace of ninjutsu and the term is part of the Japanese language that it is only natural that it should conform to what is in Japan rather than just what anyone wants it to mean. You would not be keen on someone using the term "American cowboy" and yet not even trying to be anything close to what that term meant in America.

the claims he makes is because he feels he recieved legitimate ninjutsu training from bussey. if that sets wrong with you... shucks!

Again, please stop getting rather testy and defensive. Bussey has not used the term "ninjutsu" for a good decade or so. Check with his web site and you can barely find the term on it anymore. So, how can Tew feel that he learned ninjutsu from Bussey to make part of his martial science when Bussey does not set himself up as a ninjutsu teacher anymore? And even if he we grant that maybe Tew thought he was learning ninjutsu, the fact remains he could not from Bussey and he does not know the differences from Bussey style and Japanese ninjutsu.

what dux claims with his connection to sensei is just that claims. tew left because of being disillusioned (sp?) by dux. sensei has said things re: dux that i care not to mention on a public forum.

I do not find it hard to believe that Dux lied about a relationship like that. But I think it is unfair to say that you could say something bad about Dux that you heard from Tew, but refuse to give specifics. It is kind of what you tried to accuse me of by talking about a friend of a friend. If you do not like to give specifics, then it is unfair to make it clear that what was said is not good on a public forum.

not according to some.
The Bujinkan has far more practitioners outside of Japan than inside. This is a fact.

The Bujinkan has far more practitioners outside of Japan than inside. This is a fact.

It amazes the Japanese as well. I think you can say the same about Judo, Karate and Aikido as well. Japanese arts that have mainly non-Japanese practicioners when you look at the total worldwide.

What are we talking about here? Benefits/drawbacks of modern or Bujinkan schools? Someone please clarify.

It's not exactly plagiarism, but it is similar. It's like if I made a hamburger with one bun, folded it in half, and called it a taco. It'd be like, "well, it kinda looks like a taco, but that's not the way they make them in Mexico."I see your point but on another hand, when someone comes from Mexico, they too must learn that a taco in the U.S. are different. No matter what they are in Mexico, they are different in America. They can gripe, bicker, pout, and pump their fists in the air. When you ask for a taco, they will get something similar, but definitely different. Your analogy is terribly inaccurate. Actually the tacos in America are better - more satisfying, bigger, more full. If you go to Mexico there will be different versions of what you ask for in a taco. If you simply ask for a taco, you may get a rolled up tortilla with whatever filling that it calls for depending on the area of Mexico you're from. You may also get a small, round, open tortilla with fish, meat, or vegetables. I've traveled to Panama, Costa Rica, and other areas as well. You ask for a taco and whatever place you're in determines the meaning for that word. In America, you ask for a taco, you will get a taco based on America's meaning.

IMO, the same applies to ninjutsu. Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.

So called "American Ninjutsu" refers to training in armed and unarmed combat skills. That isn't ninjutsu.

So called "American Ninjutsu" refers to training in armed and unarmed combat skills. That isn't ninjutsu.
Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools. Modern's have no objection in training and working out with the "authentics" as well as anyone in any other style or system. Its all a learning process.

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." They are mostly concerned with what is efficient in relation to winning today. What is more important today, winning or being stuck on "authentic? But if one wants to keep rolling down their spine, and crossing their legs, be my guest.

Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.
:sadsong:

Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description.
That sounds more like Budo Taijutsu practicioners.

I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.
See comment on quote #1.

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." They are mostly concerned with what is efficient in relation to winning today.
Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?

Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.
This dodge was invented by Ashida Kim when he was called on his (incorrect) use of ninjitsu. He then amended his claims to state that he used the kanji for truth (as opposed to art) intentionally.
Several of the questionable groups continue to use this tactic: "Well, of course what we do isn't ninjutsu, but it's in the same spirit." But they will loudly talk (or post) about ninja this and ninjutsu/ninjitsu that until called on it. As Don said, misleading.
But if one wants to keep rolling down their spine, and crossing their legs, be my guest.
I have never been taught to roll along my spine in a Bujinkan dojo. And if you can't understand how yoko aruki can actually be useful in the right situation, well...... :idunno:
Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.
Would be nice if the budding fantasy author in our midst took a break from the forums to get some training in, or do some actual research (other than Google).

Jeff

Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?i think sojobow is more interested in strategy as a personal hobbie, and not refering to neo skills. then again sojobow is sojobow and i only understand about half of what he writes.

Would be nice if the moderators chill on the arguments and just realize that Enson is right, stop making excuses for each other and move on.
thanks, :asian:
That sounds more like Budo Taijutsu practicioners.sounds like they do everything modern does... maybe we are not so different eh? "i'm turning japanese, i think i'm turning japanese... i really think so"

peace

i think sojobow is more interested in strategy as a personal hobbie, and not refering to neo skills. Now, I think we both know that if that was the case, he wouldn't keep mentioning what works today, and the most efficient manner in which to "win".

sounds like they do everything modern does... maybe we are not so different eh? Modern people do not study taijutsu as a way of understanding ninjutsu. By this I mean that there is no ninjutsu without taijutsu.

Then there's good ol' Ronald "Way of the Winds" Duncan. I didn't know there were any systems of "shinobi-no-jitsu" with predominantly aiki-based unarmed techniques...

I couldn't find anything like that on the website.

The Way of the Winds™ system not only entails training in ninjitsu, but also encompasses a comprehensive approach to all of the many facets of Ronald Duncan's history as a martial artist. Self defense and combative strategies are the main emphasis of training as students are also exposed to the traditional Budo arts. such as jujitsu, aiki-jujitsu, kobujitsu (weaponry), and Karate-do.

It seems to be his own system based on traditional Budo as well as ninjitsu.

He does have an impressive background.

Newsgroups: rec.martial-arts
Date: 1995/10/27


Here is the listing of Ronald Duncan's martial art experience that one of
his students was kind enough to forward to me. Hopefully other martial
historians will look into it and see whether it raises questions with
them or not...

Professor Ronald Duncan

1943 Boxing
1944-48 Chi-Chi-Su
1948-54 Kappo-Ryu
Takenouchi-Ryu
Yoshin-Ryu
Toda-Ryu
Sekiguchi-Ryu
1954-56 Kodokan Judo
Shaken-Jutsu
Shuriken-Jutsu
1956 Hassei-Ho Ryu
Ho-Jutsu
1957 Kodokan Judo
Aikido/Aiki-Jitsu
Tenshin-Shoden Katori-Shinto-Ryu
Kindai-Ryu
1957-59 Kodokan Judo
Kempo
Kendo
Kenjutsu
Yawara
Kuimiuchi
Karate
1960-62 Oda-Korosa (Koga)
Kyushin-Ryu Ninjustu
1962-64 Hakko-Ryu
Dai-nippon-Ryu
Sosuishitsu-Ryu
1964-66 Masaki-Ryu
Miura-Ryu
Tenshin-Shoden Katori-Shinto-Ryu
Toda Ryu
1966-69 Kyushin-Ryu
Masaki-Ryu
Gyokku-Ryu
Kiai-Jutsu
Haragei-Jutsu
1970-74 Kobujutsu
Madaku-Ryu
Oda-Korosu-Shinobi-No-Jutsu
Shaken-Jutsu
Yadome-Jutsu
1974-79 Zaha-Ryu
Fuhi-Ryu

I seriously doubt Duncan has been involved with Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu so long so as to having learned any ninjutsu. Other than that and the Bujinkan, ninjutsu is not very easy to come by. Furthermore, he refers to ninjutsu (actually, "ninjitsu") as physical techniques of combat. It is nothing of the sort. Then there's his knife techniques. Those seem more Filipino in origin than Japanese. I gather that can be attributed to his association in the 70's with Leo Gaje of Pekiti Tirsia Kali.
I'm not even going to comment on his technique with a kodachi in which he drops the scabbard on the floor simply because he doesn't know what to do with it for the moment.

My Japanese is poor at best, but doesn't Oda Korosu mean something like "killing Oda"? Surely, he isn't referring to the technique used by the ninja who killed Oda Nobunaga?:uhyeah:

I couldn't find anything like that on the website.
He does have an impressive background.
"Yadome" is arrow stopping; I can only imagine how he accomplishes that...probably makes himself look like a pin cushion...

And he's got Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu listed twice in there, along with other arts within the same time period. As far as I know, after you take the "Keppan" (blood oath) in Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu, you agree not to train with any other ryu-ha...

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.Awesome. If you're not even using the name ninjutsu, then I guess you don't need to continue posting here! There's no relation or connection at all, so you can just move on! Awesome...

Neos are not concerned with "authenticity." .Okay, following your logic you have two groups. One is "authentic" the other, which you call "Neo" is "not authentic". If something is "not authentic" then what is it? I think it's great that we're beginning to see things from the same perspective!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif:asian:

IMO, the same applies to ninjutsu. Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu. I have trained in the Tonsogata under Hatsumi and other Japanese, and I have the misfortune of seeing a lot of "neo" groups over the years. Trust me, they are different. Most people probably can't tell, since most people can't tell you the difference between Wing Chun and BJJ. But if you have some experience and know what to look for, then it is obvious that the Neo groups are nothing like Togakure ryu ninjutsu in Japan.

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, can someone say ditto?;)

peace

:sadsong:
Please don't try to tell me you thinkthe strategy used in the Battle of Iga is efficient in relation to winning today?Ok, I won't tell you. I don't know what the strategy was but I'd like to.
IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu. I have trained in the Tonsogata under Hatsumi and other Japanese, and I have the misfortune of seeing a lot of "neo" groups over the years. Trust me, they are different. Most people probably can't tell, since most people can't tell you the difference between Wing Chun and BJJ. But if you have some experience and know what to look for, then it is obvious that the Neo groups are nothing like Togakure ryu ninjutsu in Japan.Were these neo groups you observed located in Japan or elsewhere. I notice you constantly mention Kim, Duncan and others. Have you observed their teachings and students personally? Would have been an excellent post had you not used the word "misfortune." I'd guess there are those that think and say the same thing about you and your school.

All these comments on others is getting old especially when you don't have any first-hand knowledge of them or even can show us the quotes from those not present to defend themselves. would be nice if Kreth showed us what he's talking about versus giving us his opinion. Let us decide for outselves (the Neo way) versus swallow other's opinions (the Other way). Just show us what was said (" ") versus "I said that he said that they said was in ......"

Enson was right again. Enson 2 Others 0.

IIRC, you do not have much experience with many American Ninjutsu schools, nor can tell the Tonsogata from Gyokko ryu.Don,

Please don't take this as an attack against you as I normally see you do with others. My question is what experience, to speak of, do you have with American Ninjutsu schools other than seeing others (neo schools as you put it)? I was under the impression you train in Japan? Please clarify.

My question is what experience, to speak of, do you have with American Ninjutsu schools other than seeing others (neo schools as you put it)? I was under the impression you train in Japan? Please clarify.


Before I do so, maybe you would like to explain the experience that the judgement by you I was responding to is based on. Namely,

Ninjutsu in America is similar to what it is in Japan, but definitely different. Can we say therefore, that it isn't ninjutsu? Absolutely not.


Based on what you have written on the internet, it seems that your experience with martial arts is confined to a video home study course from Stephen Hayes for a short period of time so far. You claim Hayes as your teacher, but you live several time zones away and don't even seem to have ever been in the same room with him. You have made no mention of personal instruction in a regular Bujinkan dojo, a trip to Japan or instruction under Hatsumi.

Despite this lack of personal experience, you feel qualified to say that the ninjutsu in Japan and American (neo) ninjutsu is similar. On the other hand, you, Enson and Sojobow are all lining up to say that I am not qualified to say that they are not similar unless I have had a good deal of personal instruction in American ninjutsu.

So, when you want to say that an art is similar, personal experience is not needed in Japan, but no one else can say that they are different unless they meet your standard of personal instruction.

Personally, I think it is far easier to look at something and say that it is different from what you do than to actually learn that art. So, after years of learning the Togakure ryu in Japan, I feel no hesitation in looking at something and saying that it shows charecteristics different from what I am learning. I would not say that I know the other art well enough to do it or receive rank in it based solely on watching a video, but saying that it is not the same as something I have spent years of personal instruction in is another matter.

Personally, I think it is far easier to look at something and say that it is different from what you do than to actually learn that art. So, after years of learning the Togakure ryu in Japan, I feel no hesitation in looking at something and saying that it shows charecteristics different from what I am learning. I would not say that I know the other art well enough to do it or receive rank in it based solely on watching a video, but saying that it is not the same as something I have spent years of personal instruction in is another matter.
:iws:

would be nice if Kreth showed us what he's talking about versus giving us his opinion.
You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself. Or, even better, go to one of Dale's classes, I'm sure he can show you some good applications for it.

Jeff

I am an indie, want to state that off the front. But I do have to state some obivous facts.
One, as Kreth said if you can't see the effectiveness of Yoko Aruki or think that most other systems roll over the spine, re examine your opinion. If it is based off of Ashidas works, which I have seen. Is total kife, not Ninjutsu....authentic or not.

Another, Don Roley would have significant experience in the field. He has been training and researching for a while. Though I often disagree with his blanket statements of the indies, he as a rule has backup for what he writes.
Though again, I don't know how many of the indies schools have actually been Japan. I for one have not. 2005 is my year, and I would be more than happy to meet Don finally and chat.... and learn. I doubt the training in N America is much like over there. IMO from what I have seen on tape anyway.

As for Duncan, eh I wasn't too fancy over the tape he made some years ago, but thats me. Maybe he'd hand me my ass, so I am not going to say it doesn't work til I have felt it. But the gun stuff on the tape looks poor in my opinion, nor does the Taijustu have a "look" to it that I see as Ninjutsu. Whatever floats your boat, we all have opinions.

I don't care too much about whether your system is authentic, don't take that the wrong way as it sounds poor. But I just don't like outright lies of generational background and mystical temple training. Unless of course you can back it up.

I would however be interested in seeing who has actually met, trained etc etc, with any of these schools. I have done so with many of them. So my opinion is generally based on physical evidence.

Again Don, it seems you have gotten jiggy again... My intent was not to throw you into another one of your tantrums. Please accept my apology.

My experience with Bujinkan is only what I've seen on home video courses (Michael Pierce). There is also a Bujinkan group here in my hometown that gets together every Thursday night. From what I have seen, as I posted previously, taijutsu appears similar. It most definitely is different, but similar. I'm sorry if you don't agree, but that's my opinion from my experience.

You obviously aren't in agreement with how I train in To-Shin Do. No need to expound as you have so done in the past. I frankly don't care what you or anyone else thinks about how I choose to train or whether or not you think it's real training or not. That is not the topic for this discussion.

My simple question to you was what experience do you have with American Ninjutsu schools? That's it. I don't care to argue with you. I do respect you as a person and your apparent knowlege of Japanese Ninjutsu - I simply wanted to know. If it's too much trouble or that question seems offensive to you, then I appologize and just forget it.

you, Enson and Sojobow are all lining up to say that I am not qualified to say that they are not similar unless I have had a good deal of personal instruction in American ninjutsu.

So, when you want to say that an art is similar, personal experience is not needed in Japan, but no one else can say that they are different unless they meet your standard of personal instruction.
.again can someone say "ditto"? these same tactics are used by you too don. being fellow mods and all i will tell you that you love to put people under the fire but can't stand a little candle flame yourself. try to understand others will defend their position... however wrong it might seem to you... just as you do yours.
You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself. lets keep this on the same topic. there is a seperate thread for that.
re: gmunoz's study... well that is something for gmunoz to answer... but, if he feels he is getting quality instruction from his methods then you should respect that and not expect everyone to do as you do. again you can refer to other threads for this as well under general martial arts talk... there has been countless threads on this.
peace

Errr.... what was the topic again?? :idunno:

My simple question to you was what experience do you have with American Ninjutsu schools?

Well, I seem to have upset you, based on your comments. I was not attacking you, just pointing out the logic you used. You seem to have taken offense with me pointing out that you seem to find it ok to call Hayes your teacher without meeting him, but do not seem to think that I can even express an opinion unless I have personal experience. Calm yourself and merely look at the stance you have taken and how strange I find it.

I will say this, if you can say that something is similar in Japan without ever being here, then I can say that I do not see the same based on my sources. And I have had experience by various means with such groups as Dux ryu, Nindo ryu, Tew ryu, Duncan's group and various other groups. I stand by my statement that none of them so far knows or practices anything close to the Tonsogata you find in the Togakure ryu. And, I think we can both agree that in terms of the Togakure ryu and the way things are done in Japan, that I am by far the more experienced.

From what I have seen, as I posted previously, taijutsu appears similar

I apologize as I am not totally sure as to the purpose of this statement, but I can say that similarities in appearence or even techniques does not mean that they share similar roots. For example, take ori in Bujinkan may be VERY similar to a Shaolin wrist chin na taught by Yang style Tai Chi. An irime nage in Aikido may appear very similar to a clothesline that a linebacker trains in. However, you could not suggest that these arts share common herritage or are based on the same thing. The only link is to say that there are only so many ways to move the human body and you will see similar techniques between all arts.

again can someone say "ditto"? these same tactics are used by you too don. being fellow mods and all i will tell you that you love to put people under the fire but can't stand a little candle flame yourself. try to understand others will defend their position... however wrong it might seem to you... just as you do yours.

I think the problem here is that if you feel that Don is not arguing well, then you are failing in the same way. I think he feels that you can't claim knowledge of similarities because you have no Japanese ninjutsu experience. But the coin has two sides...and you would feel that he can't claim knowledge of similarities with out experience in American ninjutsu.

So the real question is whether or not any of you are qualified to comment on each other's arts with out experiencing them?

One last thought about the whole candle flame thing. It seems to me that Don has held his composure well against some very pedantic posts such as "Enson 2 Others 0" and "My intent was not to throw you into another one of your tantrums"...I know you did not say these things Enson.

You're kidding, right? You want me to show you how yoko aruki works on a chat forum? I've already explained the basic mechanics, try it out for yourself. Or, even better, go to one of Dale's classes, I'm sure he can show you some good applications for it.

JeffNope, don't want to show me the crossing legs technique. This what I'm referring to. would be interesting to see the Ashida Kim dodge post where he then amended the claim. Also, show us these "several questionable group's" tactics. Since it doesn't belong in this thread, just start another one with the information. Pardon the confusion you had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sojobow
Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art.


This dodge was invented by Ashida Kim when he was called on his (incorrect) use of ninjitsu. He then amended his claims to state that he used the kanji for truth (as opposed to art) intentionally.
Several of the questionable groups continue to use this tactic: "Well, of course what we do isn't ninjutsu, but it's in the same spirit." But they will loudly talk (or post) about ninja this and ninjutsu/ninjitsu that until called on it. As Don said, misleading.

Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea as to what he just said?? :idunno:

Am I the only one who has absolutely no idea as to what he just said?? :idunno:
Apparently, he wants me to show him exactly when Ashida Kim changed his story, as well as every time one of the fraud groups has used the "well it's not REALLY ninjutsu, we just call it that" dodge... :rolleyes:

Jeff

Apparently, he wants to show me exactly when Ashida Kim changed his story, as well as every time one of the fraud groups has used the "well it's not REALLY ninjutsu, we just call it that" dodge...

Ummmm..... ok?? :idunno:

So... what exactly was his point?? Just to repeat something you already knew??

So... what exactly was his point?? Just to repeat something you already knew??
Sorry, typo in my post... he wants me to show him... Not like I'm going out of my way to prove something to a guy who can't even provide a source for his quotes....

Jeff

Sorry, typo in my post... he wants me to show him... Not like I'm going out of my way to prove something to a guy who can't even provide a source for his quotes....

*shrugs* Personally, I wouldn't even waste my time. Not like its that important anyway.

I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting. Unless you are referring to Takamatsu-den offshoots like Toshindo or the RBWI, I just don't see it. Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard.

Laterz. :asian:

*shrugs* Personally, I wouldn't even waste my time. Not like its that important anyway.

I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting. Unless you are referring to Takamatsu-den offshoots like Toshindo or the RBWI, I just don't see it. Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard. Laterz. :asian:Two misrepresentations:

1)*****"I do find the claim that the neo groups as a whole no longer use the term "ninjutsu" or "ninjitsu" to refer to their arts rather, well, interesting."

2)*****"Dux, Kim, Duncan, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu". Nothing, as far as I can see, has really changed in that regard. "

No one here made the claim that neo groups as a whole no longer use the term and at least one of the 4 schools you've listed has long ago stopped referring to themselves, as a whole, as "ninjitsu." To address themselves as a "ninjitsu" school, one must first obtain special permission from the founder.

No one here made the claim that neo groups as a whole no longer use the term

Really?? Well, then, how do you explain your first post on the 6th page of this thread:

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.

I think the appropriate response now would be "gotchah". :rolleyes:

and at least one of the 4 schools you've listed has long ago stopped referring to themselves, as a whole, as "ninjitsu."

Uhhhh.... nope. Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu" schools.

To address themselves as a "ninjitsu" school, one must first obtain special permission from the founder.

*chuckle* Wish someone would'a told them that 20 years ago. :rolleyes:

Heh. Laterz.

find it ok to call Hayes your teacher without meeting him, but do not seem to think that I can even express an opinion unless I have personal experience.
And I have had experience by various means with such groups as Dux ryu, Nindo ryu, Tew ryu, Duncan's group and various other groups. I stand by my statement that none of them so far knows or practices anything close to the Tonsogata you find in the Togakure ryu. And, I think we can both agree that in terms of the Togakure ryu and the way things are done in Japan, that I am by far the more experienced.i have to disagree with most of your post. if gmunoz is learning from hayes through whatever medium then hayes would be his teacher. how do you learn of gossip? on the phone talking to someone. the phone itself is not the teacher but the person on the other line. you need less fire and more earth!:flame:

re: your experience with said schools. i don't know how since you are in japan and you said there are no such schools over there. "things that make you go humm?"
your post sounds like something sojobow would say and you therefor have no proof. you are so big on documentation. show me your membership card from rtms so i can see you have experience with this school. and i know you will say you were never a memeber and blah blah blah... but then how can you honestly say that you have experience in a certain ryu without actually studying it?
remember that you our on the modern side of ninjutsu and the way things are done here are not how they are done in japan. please keep the insults of other schools on the trad. side.

I think the problem here is that if you feel that Don is not arguing well, then you are failing in the same way. I think he feels that you can't claim knowledge of similarities because you have no Japanese ninjutsu experience. But the coin has two sides...and you would feel that he can't claim knowledge of similarities with out experience in American ninjutsu.

So the real question is whether or not any of you are qualified to comment on each other's arts with out experiencing them?

i agree with you. i am not trying to argue with don, i'm just trying to show him that he is using the same tactics that he despises so much.
peace

Really?? Well, then, how do you explain your first post on the 6th page of this thread:

Point 1: Neos do not use the the term Ninjutsu or Ninjitsu to describe their art. Neos may have used the term as a description day one - back in the day some 20 years ago, but, because of the evolution, they have long-since left this static, somewhat useless description. I understand how one can come to the conclusion that the moniker is an actual description of what neos do, but the confussion is really the result of not having any real-life experience in the neo (actually "Modern") schools.

I think the appropriate response now would be "gotchah". :rolleyes:Yep, you got me on that one. Should have realized that most of us here only believe that there are only 4 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools in existance. However, since I'm stuck on 4 out of probably 500 "Neo-Ninjitsu" schools that don't use the term "ninjitsu", I will defer to your generalization, or is it my generalization. Ya got me.

Uhhhh.... nope. Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, and Saito all still refer to their respective schools as "ninjitsu" schools.Here are the very first two lines from a certain website that I really don't want to discuss further. But, for clarification and as an example, I'll submit it:

"In 1980, long before the ninja craze, Hanshi Frank W. Dux founded the first American system of Ninjitsu--Dux Ninjitsu--later popularly shortened and referred to as Dux Ry