i "checked out" a book from our local library about different martial art styles... mostly because it had a section of ninjutsu. it had a couple of guys from the bujinkan showing some techniques and different defenses. other than their hairstyles being outdated it was alright.

now i saw that they crossed their legs while doing a certain technique and found it strange. in rtms we really don't ever cross our legs while doing any technique for loss of balance and getting yourself tripped up. also i believe upon crossing your legs, for that instant you are limiting your weaponry. now you can't kick in defense.

i was wondering if anyone else uses "crossing legs" technique as a real option in your style? if so why? if not why? i personally don't think its practicle.

peace

I'm assuming that the 'crossing legs' you're referring to is Yoko Aruki, used in Koto ryu and Togakure ryu.. There really isn't an unbalanced point in the movement. The step itself is extremely solid and grounded.

Being "limited" also does not happen in yoko aruki, as there is a spiral effect that can occur. Is it possible for you to paste pics from the book?

Or be more spacific? there are many manly leg locks we do taht we cross our legs on

i "checked out" a book from our local library about different martial art styles... mostly because it had a section of ninjutsu. it had a couple of guys from the bujinkan showing some techniques and different defenses. other than their hairstyles being outdated it was alright.

now i saw that they crossed their legs while doing a certain technique and found it strange. in rtms we really don't ever cross our legs while doing any technique for loss of balance and getting yourself tripped up. also i believe upon crossing your legs, for that instant you are limiting your weaponry. now you can't kick in defense.

i was wondering if anyone else uses "crossing legs" technique as a real option in your style? if so why? if not why? i personally don't think its practicle.

peace

Yeah, I know the position you are talking about... its not a stance or anything like that... its a movement from one position to another. Its actually, as Jay pointed out, a fairly stable and easy movement.

i just returned the book today. about 5 days late. i will check it out again after i pay my fee. then i will post the pics somehow. i'll try and scan them.

it is a movement from one position to another. like i mentioned we don't practice it. as far as it being effective form of movement...? well i guess the togakure ryu would be the ones to know. i don't know the japanese names for the movements and i don't think it had the names of the techniques. anyway i'll try and check it out again soon. maybe today after work.
peace

the crossing legs thing is alot like the flow..from what iv'e seen its a transition move.

Think of it like this..

In order to walk u have to raise a foot. If u were to take the stance of one foot it would be unstable..but we assume taking that one step leads to putting the footdown..

i just returned the book today....... anyway i'll try and check it out again soon. maybe today after work. peaceUntil then, can you describe the movements you saw in the book? I can remember a couple of instances where you cross, but it usually has to do with spinning or turning kicks etc. In some Kung Fu arts, I've seen it quite a bit (with swords and other weapons). Personally, I'm kind of like you on this one. Seems a weakness. But, I'm definately willing to learn.

well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae), then you cross one leg over the other (making your legs in a "x" shape). also if i remember correctly he has his hands down at his side too. why he would have his hands at his side is beyond me.

peace

well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae), then you cross one leg over the other (making your legs in a "x" shape). also if i remember correctly he has his hands down at his side too. why he would have his hands at his side is beyond me.

peace
It sounds like you're talking about yoko aruki, which is a running technique which allows you to face to the side. We also employ it as a way to move laterally while keeping your body aligned with your opponent, say when employing a wrist lock takedown.
I'm not sure which book you're talking about, but my guess would be that the hands were left down to focus attention on the legs/feet.

Jeff

I'm not sure which book you're talking about, but my guess would be that the hands were left down to focus attention on the legs/feet.

Jeffthat would make sense.

The value of crossing the legs can be seen by the wide number of arts with little relationship with each other that use it. If something works, chances are more than one person will think it up.

In Indonesian arts the move it called sempok. In some western sword traditions it can be called quartata, volte or fleche depending on a few ways it is done and used. In one style of Bagua I have seen it refered to as the Pheonix stance. Even modern SWAT teams and the like can be seen to use versions of it on occasion.

Done right, it can be a good tool to keep in the toolbox. But I have seena few people try to learn it on their own and the results were not pretty. In the Bujinkan, cross stepping is most associated with the Koto ryu tradition.

well i will do my best to discribe it. (still haven't gone back to the library)

you stand up straight (for the bujinkan guys, shizen no kamae),peace
You're doing the same thing I am. When the Bujinkans say "Shizen no Kamae," I have to open a new page and go look it up. Wish they would give us the english translation too. Now I have to go look up "Koto Ryu." I'm with Hatsumi Sensei: "just stand." (Hope you guys see the polite request I'm making)

Personally, I have enough problems learning balance so I just don't do any type of cross-leg movements. See it a lot in chinese sword demonstrations and some chinese unarmed techniques. But, I'm only 1/32nd Chinese. Must be a transition movement.

Wish they would give us the english translation too.

More than likely, sojobow, the English translation wouldn't make any sense to you.

In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum....

Every stance you have is weak if you allow your opponent time to readjust his position.
Sean

More than likely, sojobow, the English translation wouldn't make any sense to you.

In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum...."Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu? This stuff is intriguing. Just found this (in part):
"Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School

The oral teachings of the Koto Ryu say that this art came from China, via Korea by Chang Busho, a Chinese Warrior.
This art was passed through many generations until the first Soke, Sakagami Taro in Japan."

Nothing wrong with backtracking through history to see where we came from so we'll know where we are going.
http://www.ninjutsu.co.nz/NinjutsuHistory2.htm

"Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu?
I would put more faith into what's written here:
http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html

Although, if you're just looking for information, the "Budo Daijiten" covers quite a bit, but of course there's alot more passed on through oral tradition.:asian:

In any event, I do find it interesting that Togakure ryu and Koto ryu methods are being discussed on the "modern ninjutsu/ninjitsu" forum.... the original question was for modern applications. we enjoy imput from the traditional guys though when they come to help. we were wondering why in the world would you tie up your legs crossing them when they can be used as effective weapons? thats when jay bell, technopunk and others stepped in to help clear things up. just a bunch of ninjutsu practicioners enjoying/discussing the differences.
Every stance you have is weak if you allow your opponent time to readjust his position.
Sean i like that! it was good for me!

peace

"Inquiring minds want to know" would be the most likely reason. You don't think a modern ninjitsu forum would be interested in a 34 generation Japanese Ryu-ha and an I-don't-know-how-old chinese Ryu?

You may be well and "interested", but it is not appropriate to the forum. This would be like if we started a conversation about Tae Kwon Do kata on an Okinawan karate forum.

Also, to note, there is no such thing as a "Chinese ryu".

Nothing wrong with backtracking through history to see where we came from so we'll know where we are going.

You realize you are referring to a +1,000 year old oral history that may or may not be true, correct?? And, furthemore, has nothing to do with the yoko aruki of the ryuha in question??

the original question was for modern applications. we enjoy imput from the traditional guys though when they come to help. we were wondering why in the world would you tie up your legs crossing them when they can be used as effective weapons? thats when jay bell, technopunk and others stepped in to help clear things up. just a bunch of ninjutsu practicioners enjoying/discussing the differences.

That's all well and good... but the particulars of a method from the traditional Ninpo ryuha should be discussed in the traditional Ninjutsu forum.

Just sayin'.

That's all well and good... but the particulars of a method from the traditional Ninpo ryuha should be discussed in the traditional Ninjutsu forum.

Just sayin'.okay you can copy and paste this forum over there on the traditional side!:rolleyes:

Feel free to do so if you wish, enson. But, I have absolutely no intention of starting a discussion about yoko aruki at all.

k. thanks!;)

I would put more faith into what's written here:
http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html

Although, if you're just looking for information, the "Budo Daijiten" covers quite a bit, but of course there's alot more passed on through oral tradition.:asian:
Thanks. I'm listening.

Also, to note, there is no such thing as a "Chinese ryu". Sure there is. Here's one. http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html
There are a few others. Guess it depends on the day in question.

I'm not sure if you subscribe to the idea of pressure points and the 5 elemental cycle, but having your legs crossed is a "water" stance; therefore, if you strike someone in, say the temple, which is a fire point, then "water puts out fire" so to speak and you have a stronger attack. Some people buy it, others may not, some might never have heard of it, but it's another possible explanation. I find it hard to believe that any movements as distinct and obvious as crossing legs over like that don't have another purpose; I mean, why wouldn't you just sidestep to get into position for the next move in the kata? Just a thought - this elemental cycle/pressure point stuff is new to me.

this elemental cycle/pressure point stuff is new to me.the "elemental cycle" is a very common practice in ninjutsu. we are big on that! ;)
peace

It is thought that the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea, brought by Chan Busho, a Chinese warrior, in the form similar to koshijutsu. Yet it would be many hundreds of years before the style was shaped into Koto Ryu.

That says, if I am reading it right that Koto Ryu came from China, but didn't become "Koto Ryu" for hundreds of years. I would be willing to bet, that in China it was not actually called Koto Ryu, but that is the name it was given in Japan, after it developed "hundreds of years later" and that author refered to it as "the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea" for simplicity sake, or because he lacked the accurate Chinese name for the art as it exsited in china.

Thanks for the link. :)

Very possible. For example, I take Shaolin-do. Well, "do" is a Japanese word and "Shaolin" is a Chinese art. From what I understand, it happened that in Indonesia, I believe, Shaolin masters were punished for teaching Chinese arts, but they were allowed to teach Japanese arts; therefore, they added the Japanese "do" to the end of their name to trick those who were against it. Sounds like folklore, but probably some truth in it.

Technopunk - correct. Princples that many ages later developed into Koto ryu came from China.

Xequat - not so correct, that's just a story.

Ah, good to know, thanks. Why is it called Shaolin-do then?

Look around the net a bit, both pro and con on the stories behind Shaolin-do....some interesting reading.

Sure there is. Here's one. http://business.fortunecity.com/johns/510/kotoryu.html
There are a few others. Guess it depends on the day in question.

In no way is Koto ryu a "Chinese ryu". It has its very beginnings based on concepts originating from China, but that's all.

That says, if I am reading it right that Koto Ryu came from China, but didn't become "Koto Ryu" for hundreds of years. I would be willing to bet, that in China it was not actually called Koto Ryu, but that is the name it was given in Japan, after it developed "hundreds of years later" and that author refered to it as "the Koto Ryu came from China via Korea" for simplicity sake, or because he lacked the accurate Chinese name for the art as it exsited in china.

Exactly, this would be like calling American kickboxing an "Oriental sport". Its just plain bad logic.

Laterz.

In no way is Koto ryu a "Chinese ryu". It has its very beginnings based on concepts originating from China, but that's all.



Exactly, this would be like calling American kickboxing an "Oriental sport". Its just plain bad logic.

Laterz.now what does your entire post have to do about the original subject matter?:idunno:
peace

now what does your entire post have to do about the original subject matter?

A little bit, actually.

The techniques being discussed come, in part, from Koto ryu. Koto ryu was claimed to be a "Chinese ryu" by one of the posters. I corrected that claim.

Laterz.

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.

Of course, you really do not know what you are talking about or have any experience with the move, do you? Not even a picture of an application.

Anything can be a suicide move if done at the wrong time or at the wrong angle. The key is know when to use it as well as how.

So this is not a case where you stand still in front of someone with your legs crossed. You really should see it in action in forms such as "Koyoku" to see why it can work very well instead of trying to set it up in situations where it would not be appropriate so that it will fail.

Of course, considering your limited experience in martial arts, it may be hard for you to imagine how it can be used effectivly in combat on your own. So you should seek out competent Silat players and ask them about Sempok if you are really insterested. Or Bagua guys, Bujinkan, etc.

Of course, considering your limited experience in martial arts, it may be hard for you to imagine how it can be used effectivly in combat on your own. So you should seek out competent Silat players and ask them about Sempok if you are really insterested. Or Bagua guys, Bujinkan, etc.Thanks for the advice but I'll just take my teacher's word for now. Actually, I'm NOT interested.

I'm still apprehensive about crossing legs (or turning my back to someone for that matter). Some martial artist is simply just too darn fast and will see this opening and investigate it before we can reestablish strength positions. It (crossing legs) may look good in an exhibition of techniques, Kata or Forms. But, against a few people I know of, you would not be able to reorganize from the collapse.I don't blame you. There are definitely moves that I am apprehensive about, too. But the crossing legs could have a couple of reasons that I can think of. I've already mentioned that it's a water stance, so if you want to attack a fire meridian, then it might help to be in a water stance, but I wouldn't go into one unless I had my opponent in my control because of the issues you have brought up with balance. For example, if someone grabs me with both hands or pushes me, I could trap their arms/hands against my body and cross my legs to bring us down farther while keeping my back straight and not bending over, making me more susceptible to other types of attacks and limiting my visibility. If I have a good wrist lock, then it could only make it stronger, esecially if I use the fire meridians for my wrist locks. The thing is, I don't think that kata moves are intended to look good for demos. I think that they all have some practical purpose, but it is not always obvious.

Make sense? It's all I can come up with for now, but I think it could be useful.

. But, I have absolutely no intention of starting a discussion about yoko aruki at all. i went back to the library today and looked it up. it is called yoko o aruki. it explains that you can use the move to side step an on coming attacker. looks kinda silly!

peace

i went back to the library today and looked it up. it is called yoko o aruki. it explains that you can use the move to side step an on coming attacker. looks kinda silly! peace
I think its called "Old School." Still think that in these times, you cross your legs, you turn your back, you even step backwards - You die. Swordman said "do nothing of no use" (or something like that). Pure concept of Ninjitsu, "Maintain your Triangles - destroy his" but, when he crosses his legs, he's done all the work for you.

As previously mentioned, looks good in Forms. Looks good in swinging that weapon. Looks good in exercise (cross your legs and bend at the waste), just don't try it when flying a plane. But don't listen to my apprehensions, Roley says I can't fight anyway. But I can cheat.

Rather amazing how often people fail to understand the purpose of kata.

*shrugs*

i went back to the library today and looked it up. it is called yoko o aruki. it explains that you can use the move to side step an on coming attacker. looks kinda silly!

peace

Enson, the best response I can give you to this, is find a video where a qualified instructor in one of the Kans is demonstrating technique and watch his feet. You will see that as a stepping motion used to flow from one kame (thats "stance" for sojobow, since he requested we post terms in english) into another durring a fight... you never "stay" that way. Seeing it in motion would explain it a LOT better than any picture could. I wish I had a clip I could show you... it would clear it up I think.

Rather amazing how often people fail to understand the purpose of kata.

*shrugs*

It is hard to say if Sojobow cannot understand the purpose due to his lack of experience and knowledge, or if he is just continuing his quest to trash the Bujinkan whenever he can.

After all, he says he does have an interest in actually lerning it, but will demean it when he can. And this despite the fact that he has been told that other skilled arts such as bagua and silat have it.

It seems to me that Sojobow is just trying to trash the arts that can be traced back to Japan because his own teacher's claims fall flat on their face. He just tried to say that he had some pictures on the net that woudl destroy my credibility, but refuses to post them like he said he would. And that is not the only case of him trying to destroy the credibility of those that say that his art can't be found in Japan. Trashing a move he refuses to even seriously look into seems just part of his disruptions.

Enson, the best response I can give you to this, is find a video where a qualified instructor in one of the Kans is demonstrating technique and watch his feet. You will see that as a stepping motion used to flow from one kame (thats "stance" for sojobow, since he requested we post terms in english) into another durring a fight... you never "stay" that way. Seeing it in motion would explain it a LOT better than any picture could. I wish I had a clip I could show you... it would clear it up I think.you are probably right. i have not seen the move in action to make an acurate analysis. just seeing the pic though the guy looks ridiculous. he has his hands to his side and is moving out of the way with an oncoming attacker.

I haven't seen the book in question, so I have no way of even knowing if the person demoing yoko aruki is doing it correctly. It may look awkward, but by bending the knees, your legs are actually not tied up. And it's typically used, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, more for turning, or moving sideways while keeping your body square to your opponent.

Jeff

........You will see that as a stepping motion used to flow from one kame (thats "stance" for sojobow, since he requested we post terms in english) into another durring a fight... you never "stay" that way.Ok Pinky, now I'm gonna have to slap ya round a tidbit (got that from my hero).

Anyway. What Technopunk, Kreth and DR are verbally painting is what is known as a "transitition stance" (transition kame?). Also, a "transition flow." Point is, it (the technique) can be expressed quite logically "without" crossing the legs.

I'll explain my take further in benefits/drawbacks of modern (the thread)

Point is, it (the technique) can be expressed quite logically "without" crossing the legs.
Well, that's your opinion. Yoko aruki is very useful in a fight sense, in that it allows you to turn your body with less stepping. It's tough to explain, but the foot placement, when done properly, can let you evade a strike and turn for a better angle in one movement.

Jeff

kame (thats "stance" for sojobow, since he requested we post terms in english) .i think the right spelling is kamae. i could be wrong.;)
peace

Well, that's your opinion. Yoko aruki is very useful in a fight sense, in that it allows you to turn your body with less stepping. It's tough to explain, but the foot placement, when done properly, can let you evade a strike and turn for a better angle in one movement. JeffBelieve me, I'm not disputing the efficacy (sp.l) of Yoko Aruki. I'm only saying that I (personally) would be apprehensive in crossing as a transition step especially when there are ways to do the same motion/evasion with less motion. I can see instances where I might HAVE TO use Yoko Aruki, but it's only when I have made a previous mistake. But again, I'm not disputing the technique.

He just tried to say that he had some pictures on the net that woudl destroy my credibility, but refuses to post them like he said he would. And that is not the only case of him trying to destroy the credibility of those that say that his art can't be found in Japan. Trashing a move he refuses to even seriously look into seems just part of his disruptions.Read the post. I asked you a question and told you that I would not play until you answer my question on Ninja. Til you answer, just keep crying. We've moved on the bigger and better subjects. Stay in your dulldromes.

I can see instances where I might HAVE TO use Yoko Aruki, .like when one has to urinate! hee hee! :lol::rofl: man that was funny!
i seriously see no need for this technique when a shuffel would be more effective from my experience. man i need to scan that pic!
peace

Read the post. I asked you a question and told you that I would not play until you answer my question on Ninja. Til you answer, just keep crying.

Nope, look at the post yourself.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=281037#post281037

You said you were waiting for me to say that the event did not take place so you could spring your trap and post the photos. Well, I am saying the event did not take place.

So, if anyone thinks that Sojobow is here with an honest question and would come to a honest opinion of yoko aruki, then you merely need to look at his past behavior to see that he has an agenda and is quite willing to lie to push it forward. Trying to convince him that yoko aruki works is like trying to convince a fraud that they choudl not seel their products becasue they don't work. (I.e. because like Sojobow they know that and don't care.)

Nope, look at the post yourself.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=281037#post281037

You said you were waiting for me to say that the event did not take place so you could spring your trap and post the photos. Well, I am saying the event did not take place.
Nope, look at the post yourself.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16833&page=7&pp=15

Sure I can. This one is easy. But first, Define Ninja.

Enson, now i get it, it was funny. Urinate!!!!!!!!

Sure I can. This one is easy. But first, Define Ninja.

The post has nothing to do with defining ninja. You said you had photos you could post. Now you are trying to divert attention away from the fact you lied. Typical tactic, say you can do something, but when called on it put up something you want the other guy to do. But never do it. Same as the old 10,000 dollar challenge by Ashida Kim.

You said you had the photos, go ahead and post them.

The post has nothing to do with defining ninja. You said you had photos you could post. Now you are trying to divert attention away from the fact you lied. Typical tactic, say you can do something, but when called on it put up something you want the other guy to do. But never do it. Same as the old 10,000 dollar challenge by Ashida Kim.

You said you had the photos, go ahead and post them.
I see you. You believe that if you can keep interjecting your favorite 3 names into our threads in this subsection, the Moderators will lock the threads. You are on your own as I will not discuss any individual. There is just too much good information here to allow you to keep acting stupid. C U. NO RESPONSES FROM ME AGAIN off subject.

Now that Sojobow has been suspended, maybe this subject can finally be discussed calmly and honestly.

The following clip,

http://www.silat-video.com/pisau2.avi

shows a Silat style of cross step. Twice as a matter of fact. The movements are deep and there is a lot going on that may not be obvious to a causual viewer. The guy who made this clip is very, very skilled and has had some real experience in using what he shows.

like when one has to urinate! hee hee! :lol::rofl: man that was funny!
i seriously see no need for this technique when a shuffel would be more effective from my experience. man i need to scan that pic!
peace

Not neccessarily... there are times when to keep your power center in line with your opponent's weak spot you cannot do that without turning your body... that cross step can facilitate that better than a shuffle, without pointing you "away".

Crossing your legs is a way to ****(twist) your waste without having to turn your upper body. It allows you to generate a lot of power in a circular motion to either throw, strike or break an opponent.


Regards
FW

shows a Silat style of cross step. Twice as a matter of fact. The movements are deep and there is a lot going on that may not be obvious to a causual viewer. The guy who made this clip is very, very skilled and has had some real experience in using what he shows.i saw the video. i can make out what your talking about but... i just have a problem with tying up my legs. what if there ar mulitple attackers? you might need your legs for a back kick or a heel stomp kick. if all you are doing is fighting with your hands... well that might be the case. how much balance can you really have with the yoko aruki? what if you get pushed in the back by someone else. little hard to defend yourself with your legs crossed. again this is my opinion. its nice to see that some use this.
don, would you say (according to the video) that he bujin yoko aruki is similar?
i will say that we use crossing legs only in stealth walking, but never in combat. well at least from what i've seen.
peace

i just saw a kenjutsu kata form of hayes and he has yoko aruki. looks okay but i still wouldn't do so. i would use a pary/sidestep (sp?) instead.

peace

Incidentally, I believe there is no crossing of the legs, traditionally speaking, in Kukishin ryu. Koto ryu was to the best of my knowledge designed for self defense and guerilla combat rather than battlefield fighting.

Before I ever did Yoko Aruki, I had about 1 year of Aikido experience. In Aikido, we have two movements that are used as one exercise called Irimi Tenkan. I'm sure some have heard of it. Anyway, one steps foreward half step, followed by a full step and a pivot, until facing the opposite direction. This rotation proves to be the unbalance point (for the attacker) in a lot of attacks. when using Yoko Aruki, if caught up in a state of unbalance, it is practical to Tenkan (turn). doing so will not only free you of unbalance, but throw your Uke off as well. It all goes back to rotating the hips, which can be found in almost all MA.

Koto ryu was to the best of my knowledge designed for self defense and guerilla combat rather than battlefield fighting.

Guerilla combat? Really??

I find that very intriguing --- although it makes a great deal of sense, considering its an Iga tradition.

I think that was the case for most Japanese styles that emphasize dakentai more than grappling, at least those that were developed during the Sengoku Jidai, during the era of katchu bujutsu.

I'm not going to revitalize the old discussion about Chinese influences again, but I'm wondering if there are any parallels that can be drawn between the evolution of Koto ryu and the Indonesian kuntao styles. Both pummel the guy relentlessly until he's down and then give him a few more shots to make sure he stays there. In both self defense and guerilla warfare, hit-and-run is the name of the game.

makes sense, since Koto ryu seems to have so much technical aspects in common with some Karate styles. (Karate was also designed for SD)

Now that Sojobow has been suspended, maybe this subject can finally be discussed calmly and honestly.

The following clip,

http://www.silat-video.com/pisau2.avi

shows a Silat style of cross step. Twice as a matter of fact. The movements are deep and there is a lot going on that may not be obvious to a causual viewer. The guy who made this clip is very, very skilled and has had some real experience in using what he shows.
just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed. One thing I will say is that in these types of demonstrations, one usually over-exagerates which is why I have a problem with most kata and forms. Good for demonstrations, but the side-view gives us no real value. I say to try and visualize the technique being demonstrated from either behind or directly in front of the guy. You'll then see the restriction of motion, range etc. But I do like the maintenance of head-level. The final movement would only be of use in attacking or defending in a direction 180 degrees from the original attacking direction. Basically, a weak chinese variation IMO.

just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed.

I thik you are just saying that as part of your constant attacks against anything that is done in a Japanese style. I can poin tot as far back as how you made comments about Dale Seago and was not able to back up what you said for a precedent.

And I can clearly see the power from the leg movements being used in both forward and backwards during the cross step. pause the clip and go through it frame by frame if you have to. But if you have the eyes and experience to see, you will note that the arms and the legs move in coordination and in the same vector of force, aimed by the hips.

I thik you are just saying that as part of your constant attacks against anything that is done in a Japanese style. I can poin tot as far back as how you made comments about Dale Seago and was not able to back up what you said for a precedent.Personally, I have a lot of respect for Dale Seago.

And I can clearly see the power from the leg movements being used in both forward and backwards during the cross step. pause the clip and go through it frame by frame if you have to. But if you have the eyes and experience to see, you will note that the arms and the legs move in coordination and in the same vector of force, aimed by the hips.Am I not allowed to make a simple observation? Right or wrong, tis just an observation. Again, because of the angle we're exposed too (a side-view), you don't really see the limitations he places himself in by narrowing or even eliminating the triangles of power, eliminating other vectors and opening other passing lanes (my own term). But, because the video is a "demonstration", it isn't something I'd use in a real fight. It is only a demonstration. A training tool.

Look at this one: http://www.chuskungfu.org/movie/northern_danney1_lq.mpg

The blocks, I am told, are similar to one in xingyi's za shi chui called cat washes face. (sliqueRick). Personally, I find the demonstration interesting in that the kick is an excellent technique (even though I wouldn't use it other than for demonstration purposes). The blocks are good exhibitions but they (the punches) actually would not have struck any target as the distance is unrealistic. But imagine viewing the demonstration from behind either individual versus this side-view.

Come to think of it, Dale Seago has a video demonstration of choshe dori which shows the same problems with these type of training videos. If one wants to cross their legs, be my guess. It just makes me grimmish as I know what would happen to me if I did this against one of our blackbelts. I'd be on my back with my legs still crossed trying to regain consciousness. Not only is crossing legs bad, but so is backing up. Just an opinion of this lowly purple belt in martial talk. Incidently, the leg power you mention is actually up and down versus any forward or backward vector.

Keep posting on this subject, its getting interesting.

Am I not allowed to make a simple observation? Right or wrong, tis just an observation.

Of course. You have proven in the past that you have an agenda and can not back up what you claim, but no one is excluded from the discussion merely based on that. Just as long as everyone knows what type of person you are.

Of course, it would be easier if you answered Bester's question he posed to you a while back about just how proven your experience is, and then backed it up with independently verifiable proof.

Of course. You have proven in the past that you have an agenda and can not back up what you claim, but no one is excluded from the discussion merely based on that. Just as long as everyone knows what type of person you are.

Of course, it would be easier if you answered Bester's question he posed to you a while back about just how proven your experience is, and then backed it up with independently verifiable proof.don, please re-read your post. it doesn't make any comments to crossing legs, yoko aruki, or the likes. lets all try to keep this thread on topic.
peace

it doesn't make any comments to crossing legs, yoko aruki, or the likes. lets all try to keep this thread on topic.

Also note, enson, that comments about crossing legs, yoko aruki, or Koto ryu's history of guerilla warfare in Iga --- all while very interesting and definately worth discussing --- have absoluting nothing to do with the benefits and/or drawbacks of "neo" ninjutsu groups (since, as a few have pointed out, many of them don't apparently teach the yoko aruki of Koto ryu and Togakure ryu).

I maintain that this topic should be discussed on the traditional ninjutsu forum (since we are referring to a traditional method of Koto ryu and Togakure ryu). This is not the thread's topic.

Just my thoughts, anyway. :asian:

The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.



just too many obvious weaknesses and openings. No power generated in a forward momentum as well as intentional restrictions self imposed.

Sojobow, are you stating that crossing the legs cannot generate power? Are you familiar with Judo or Aikido techniques where one crosses the legs? the leg gets pulled up to a more solid base in which power is generated from.

The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.

Hrmph.... and I thought it was about the benefits/drawbacks of neo-ninjutsu.

Although, technically, a complete lack of crossing-legs techniques could be argued to be a major drawback...

:asian:

Hrmph.... and I thought it was about the benefits/drawbacks of neo-ninjutsu.

:asian:
Wrong thread.

The discussion is why Neo groups DON'T use Yoko aruki, or crossing legs of any sort.

Sojobow, are you stating that crossing the legs cannot generate power? Are you familiar with Judo or Aikido techniques where one crosses the legs? the leg gets pulled up to a more solid base in which power is generated from.
I can't think of an instance where crossing one's legs can generate power. Again, I'm thinking of instances where you cross your legs while you upper torso is still facing an opponent. I am familiar with Judo but not aikido techniques. I have seen some aikido techniques where you cross your legs to inhance turning your upper torso in an opposite direction. Feel free to define a Judo technique whereby you cross your legs.

I can't think of an instance where crossing one's legs can generate power.

Probably just a lack of experience on your part. I had trouble understanding the concept a couple of decades ago. But a little experience in various martial arts since then has opened my eyes. It would be best if you have a real teacher teach you it. You can find similar moves in many arts like Bagua as well.

Excuse me Mr. Roley,

Realizing that you are a moderator now, I don't want to overstep my bounds, although the question must be asked.

When you go to the zoo, you go straight for the monkey cage, don't you?
You dangle food just out of reach, stick your greasy fingers in the cage and taunt the animals by making faces, don't you!? Because that's exactly what you're doing here...

Probably just a lack of experience on your part. I had trouble understanding the concept a couple of decades ago...
Donny Shihan, you're nothing but a monkey teaser and you should quit dangling your banana in front of the cage.
:asian:

Well, let's delve a little into the methodology of how techniques were traditionally transmitted... Back in the olden days, men would go out to battle, if they came back alive, they might write down some notes showing how. Over time, some of these notes began to be practiced as kata.
Now, do you really think that if every time a warrior crossed his feet, he got steamrolled and then butchered, that the technique would have ever been passed down?

Jeff

i understand that c.l. is practiced in other arts. this is fine and good for others. we personally don't practice it from what i have seen. maybe someone will come in and teach it to us, and revolutionize our way of thinking. "maybe". i do have to say that the "triangulation" would be off tying up your legs even for an instant.

peace

Wrong thread.

Yikes!! My bad. :whip:

Sorry, it was really late at night when I typed that. Must'a gotten all them subscribed threads confused....

i understand that c.l. is practiced in other arts. this is fine and good for others. we personally don't practice it from what i have seen. maybe someone will come in and teach it to us, and revolutionize our way of thinking. "maybe". i do have to say that the "triangulation" would be off tying up your legs even for an instant.

peace
There's some kuden in regards to yoko aruki (the "leg-crossing" technique) which has to do with spacing of the feet and bent knees. This actually allows a lot of freedom in leg movement while not sacrificing balance. You're right though, it's not something that can be easily explained here, or demonstrating in pictures or video...

Jeff

Nooo... don`t give them the kuden, we need them to retain the big powerful "I got a pair hanging" stances. On another thread I see they want the way to use a shishinken....

Blind: "Nooo... don`t give them the kuden, we need them to retain the big powerful "I got a pair hanging" stances. On another thread I see they want the way to use a shishinken...."

Oh come on, gotta throw 'em a bone sometimes.

Ooh, try this one, using shishinken and yoko aruki at the same time.

If that don't make you look like ninja's, nothing will!

Probably just a lack of experience on your part. I had trouble understanding the concept a couple of decades ago. But a little experience in various martial arts since then has opened my eyes. It would be best if you have a real teacher teach you it. You can find similar moves in many arts like Bagua as well.the insults just keep going on and on. kind of like the energizer bunny. Actually, some martial artist just don't spend very much time practicing that which lacks efficiency in a Modern Age. simply because many arts practice anything in particular does not translate to efficiency.

Keep the Moderater Insults coming since it makes your day. In fact, why not give me a couple of new Moderator negative points? Someone is being real funny giving me those green points too.

In today's combat, please keep crossing your legs cause someone else did it 400 years ago. I need all the advantages I can get cause I'm slow.

In today's combat, please keep crossing your legs cause someone else did it 400 years ago. I need all the advantages I can get cause I'm slow.

Sojo, I hope you are not implying you plan to fight one of us.

In today's combat, please keep crossing your legs cause someone else did it 400 years ago. I need all the advantages I can get cause I'm slow.well at least your honest about that. keep it up!;)

peace

Keep the Moderater Insults coming since it makes your day. In fact, why not give me a couple of new Moderator negative points? .. i believe you have this theory that moderators are attacking you... we are not! please cease and desist immediatly your implications that moderators are trying to give you negative rep. your implications are uncalled for and have no merit. please excuse yourself and keep your post as civil and respectable as possible.

-mt moderator-

Actually, some martial artist just don't spend very much time practicing that which lacks efficiency in a Modern Age.

Uhhhh... kettle, pot, black, jig of wackiness??

Cross step technique is ONLY used when stealthing. I would assume every ninja dojo would teach whether you are traditional or not.
When you preform the technique correctly you have perfect balance. If not you'd fall over. You get into a flat stance like a horse stance. Feet should be shoulder width apart. Hands can be at sides or in front of you. You can move them or not, up to you. (I like to keep my hands at my sides around stomach level) Now as you take your first step lean into it. Like as if you were going to balance on one foot, cause in actuality you are. Cross the leg in front or behind the other leg. Step softly, that is the key to the technique. And repeat.
If you did it correctly you did not make a single sound and did not fall over. Congrats if you did it.

Cross step technique is ONLY used when stealthing.

First sentence and I already have to stop and correct you.

Let me ask you just how much experience you have with the subject matter? If you had studeid under someone like Dale Seago or a teacher knowledgable of what is in the Koto ryu, you would know many applications for the move in combat.

Welcome to Martialtalk. Maybe you should take some time reading some posts that have gone on before, stop over at the forum devoted to introducing yourself and do so. You seem pretty enthusiastic about ninjutsu, but list that you ahve no rank in it. I find that pretty interesting and would like to see more in the forum devoted to introductions.

I for one gotta say welcome Kallifallen. Don't let these veterans intimidate you. They bleed red too and get weak when around Kryptonite! Some of these guys live in Japan and nothing is correct unless they say it is. But please, don't leave Martialtalk because of condescending remarks made by them. I enjoy your enthusiasm.

Stockholm Taikai 1998. Hatsumi sensei demonstrating the technique "setsuyaku" on Arnaud. Yoko aruki bonanza. Anyone can see that Hatsumi sensei has no intention of being stealthy at the time (well, not more than usual anyway, tee hee).

Some of these guys live in Japan and nothing is correct unless they say it is. But please, don't leave Martialtalk because of condescending remarks made by them.

I have to say, gmunoz, that you seem to be taking what "these veterans" actually say completely out of context. I didn't detect a hint of condescension in Don's previous post.

I don't know about anyone else, but personally I'd probably listen when someone who has 10 to 15 more years experience in the art than me gives some advice. But, maybe that's just me. ;)

Laterz. :asian:

But, maybe that's just me. ;)


No, not just you. This is a reasonable approach that I would find more conducive to learning, as well.

Don Roley,
Fine I'll let you lead. I understand it was too farfeatched of me to say the cross step is only for stealth, but I don't know you should not cross your step in combat. And I don't think I written out the application to good either but it was to give an idea of the movement. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.
Yes, I don't have a rank. But I have read and learned a nice amount on the art. May not be a good reason to post detailed stuff since I don't know all the details but I'm trying. And I'm trying to shed some light on what I know.
Um, not too sure what the introduction will help in but okay. I understand.

I understand it was too farfeatched of me to say the cross step is only for stealth, but I don't know you should not cross your step in combat.
There are times when it's entirely possible to cross-step in a fight.
And I don't think I written out the application to good either but it was to give an idea of the movement. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.
Yes, I don't have a rank. But I have read and learned a nice amount on the art. May not be a good reason to post detailed stuff since I don't know all the details but I'm trying. And I'm trying to shed some light on what I know.
Um, not too sure what the introduction will help in but okay. I understand.
Would you accept medical advice from someone who never went to med school, but had "read and learned a nice amount" on medicine? Reading something does not necessarily equate to knowing it.

Jeff

I have to say, gmunoz, that you seem to be taking what "these veterans" actually say completely out of context. I didn't detect a hint of condescension in Don's previous post.

I don't know about anyone else, but personally I'd probably listen when someone who has 10 to 15 more years experience in the art than me gives some advice. But, maybe that's just me. ;)

Laterz. :asian:Perhaps I did take Don's post out of context here. If I did I apologize to him for that. I must admit that I've been around here for a few months now and it seems that DR and a few others are suspicious of any newbie's statements and almost go on the offensive with them. Questions asking what their experience is and almost what qualifies them to offer such a statement. Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy everyone's participation. After all this is what this forum is for. I would like to see more encouragement from "veterans" and not so much the negative perception received from us lowly, meager practioners just trying to get involved here. Of course this is my opinion. Moderators should encourage all to involve themselves, irregardless of whether someone's opinion is naive or not. Just seems like newbie's are put on the defensive right away. I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. If so, then I probably should leave MT like the others that have in the short few months I've been here...

Again, if that is not what Don meant, then that's cool. It just seems that way many times.

Perhaps I did take Don's post out of context here. If I did I apologize to him for that. I must admit that I've been around here for a few months now and it seems that DR and a few others are suspicious of any newbie's statements and almost go on the offensive with them. Questions asking what their experience is and almost what qualifies them to offer such a statement. Maybe it's just me, but I enjoy everyone's participation. After all this is what this forum is for. I would like to see more encouragement from "veterans" and not so much the negative perception received from us lowly, meager practioners just trying to get involved here. Of course this is my opinion. Moderators should encourage all to involve themselves, irregardless of whether someone's opinion is naive or not. Just seems like newbie's are put on the defensive right away. I hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. If so, then I probably should leave MT like the others that have in the short few months I've been here...

While I'm sure Don and Kreth are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, I'd like to interject here.

What "the veterans" generally seem to be doing, from my point of view, is correcting inaccuracies that often get tossed around on these forums --- such as the Hollywood ninja-to, combatic applications of yoko aruki, a specification as to what exactly 'ninjutsu' is, and so on. The problem is that, a lot of times, people really are spouting stuff that is just plain not true.

I'm a neophyte myself, so do understand where you're coming from. But, it will really help in the long run (IMO) not to get uppity every time one of your preconceptions gets challenged (its happened to me more than once, I can assure you of that).

Like I said before, I'd be a bit more open of the advice of buyu that have been at it for a decade or so longer than myself. ;)

Kreth,
When can you cross-step in a fight? I sadly don't see any room to.
I understand what you mean on the "don't believe novice's speech," but I won't compare a doctor to a martial artist. Those are two completely different professions. You could of at least compared them to a teacher or a mechanic.
Anyway, isn't this a forum? A place you can go to be corrected and ask questions so you can learn. Whether I'm a novice or not does it matter (if I know the answer)? I mean, I'd just hate it to see people say, "Don't believe the novice's or the lower kyu's. The higher kyu's and the black belts you should listen to because they have been learning that art longer."

While I'm sure Don and Kreth are perfectly capable of speaking for themselves, I'd like to interject here.

What "the veterans" generally seem to be doing, from my point of view, is correcting inaccuracies that often get tossed around on these forums --- such as the Hollywood ninja-to, combatic applications of yoko aruki, a specification as to what exactly 'ninjutsu' is, and so on. The problem is that, a lot of times, people really are spouting stuff that is just plain not true.

I'm a neophyte myself, so do understand where you're coming from. But, it will really help in the long run (IMO) not to get uppity every time one of your preconceptions gets challenged (its happened to me more than once, I can assure you of that).

Like I said before, I'd be a bit more open of the advice of buyu that have been at it for a decade or so longer than myself. ;)
I must say that my point isn't about keeping an open ear to those who have been at it longer. That, for most, should be a given. I think, rather I know - that my point is with regard to the received attitude by which those veterans clarify the misconceptions of those who are still learning. We are all still learning. It's as if the particular veterans have a chip on their shoulders and make some feel as if it isn't correct lest they nod their head in approval. It's condescending in a way.

I don't care how experienced a person is or how knowledgeable they think they are if their attitude sucks or they make me feel less than. I'm completely open to advice of more experienced folks, but not from those with nasty elitist attitudes. It's all in their attitude - whether they intend it or not - it's the way they're perceived by others.

We're all learning, and we're all human. No one likes to put up with having to correct the same errors over and over again.

I don't care how experienced a person is or how knowledgeable they think they are if their attitude sucks or they make me feel less than. I'm completely open to advice of more experienced folks, but not from those with nasty elitist attitudes. It's all in their attitude - whether they intend it or not - it's the way they're perceived by others.


:-offtopic

But as long as it seems that is ok, let me just state that I have seen pretty bad examples of attitude from people who know nothing- and they are the ones to most often complain about other people's attitude.

If I had a dime for every time some person came across laying down the law, only to have all of his statements shot down with fact and logic and then complain about how the other side is snotty.... I could take a quick trip to the states.

When you talk about opinions, you state your opinions. The opinion of a medical doctor on a patient' condition tends to carry a bit more weight than an intern or a layman. Sometimes the background of a person does make a difference when trying to determine whether to believe their opinions or not.

And then there are facts. And facts are not really as debatable as opinions. And in the case of this thread, cross stepping is not only used for stealth training in the Bujinkan- it is also an important move in techniques from the Koto ryu and the like. And there are other arts that use similar techniques. I have already mentioned, and provided video links, for other arts such as Silat that use cross stepping. This is a fact. Now if you want to say you think that everyone who has ever done cross stepping in all the varied arts it appears in is wrong and you are right then we are dealing with opinion. If there are no facts to bring to the table and let others see for themselves, and people cannot be confinced by the logic of your arguments, then the background of the person may be an issue.

Anyway, isn't this a forum? A place you can go to be corrected and ask questions so you can learn.

But go back to your original statement and you can see that it was not a question, or an opinion. You stated what you did as if it was a fact set in stone. You see the problem?

You may feel that you are being treated like you know nothing, but when you state things that are not true with such conviction, what other response is appropriate?

Sometimes it is best to just to try to listen more than you speak.

Kreth,
When can you cross-step in a fight? I sadly don't see any room to.
It would be impossible for me to answer this without knowing more about the type of fight. You might as well ask when you can throw a left jab in a fight.
I mean, I'd just hate it to see people say, "Don't believe the novice's or the lower kyu's. The higher kyu's and the black belts you should listen to because they have been learning that art longer."
I'm not saying people shouldn't listen to you. I'm saying you should avoid phrasing your opinions as fact, especially given your lack of real training.

Jeff

:-offtopic

But as long as it seems that is ok, let me just state that I have seen pretty bad examples of attitude from people who know nothing- and they are the ones to most often complain about other people's attitude.

If I had a dime for every time some person came across laying down the law, only to have all of his statements shot down with fact and logic and then complain about how the other side is snotty.... I could take a quick trip to the states.

When you talk about opinions, you state your opinions. The opinion of a medical doctor on a patient' condition tends to carry a bit more weight than an intern or a layman. Sometimes the background of a person does make a difference when trying to determine whether to believe their opinions or not.

And then there are facts. And facts are not really as debatable as opinions. And in the case of this thread, cross stepping is not only used for stealth training in the Bujinkan- it is also an important move in techniques from the Koto ryu and the like. And there are other arts that use similar techniques. I have already mentioned, and provided video links, for other arts such as Silat that use cross stepping. This is a fact. Now if you want to say you think that everyone who has ever done cross stepping in all the varied arts it appears in is wrong and you are right then we are dealing with opinion. If there are no facts to bring to the table and let others see for themselves, and people cannot be confinced by the logic of your arguments, then the background of the person may be an issue.

Fair enough. I've seen and used crossing legs even in a standard Juji no Kata and it all depends, imo, on the positioning of the individual and their opponent. Sometimes it works for me, other times no.

It would be impossible for me to answer this without knowing more about the type of fight. You might as well ask when you can throw a left jab in a fight.

I'm not saying people shouldn't listen to you. I'm saying you should avoid phrasing your opinions as fact, especially given your lack of real training.

Jeff
Could it be that the lower ranked practitioners aren't intending to state opinions as fact and that the upper ranks have a preconceived notion and tendency to read it as such?

Could it be that the lower ranked practitioners aren't intending to state opinions as fact and that the upper ranks have a preconceived notion and tendency to read it as such?
Well, I dunno... how does this read to you?:
Cross step technique is ONLY used when stealthing.
To me, it looks like someone speaking as an authority on the subject.

Jeff

Fair enough. I've seen and used crossing legs even in a standard Juji no KataExplanation, please?

Well, I dunno... how does this read to you?:

To me, it looks like someone speaking as an authority on the subject.

Jeff
Good point. However, when I read his profile and he admits he has no rank, then it helps me filter his statements and not get too "jiggy" when he posts. It's pretty easy. The posts are kinda cute actually.

Explanation, please?Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what everyone is referring to on crossing legs. In Kenjutsu Juji no Kata, a standard downward cut from Dai Jo dan no Kamae, one may cross their legs while taking a forward step and cutting horizontally across the neck. ie. they can evade or block the downward cut and a horizontal cut is followed up in response.

Your opponent strikes downward at you. You evade his strike by taking a right step backward while cutting down on his wrist. If that, for whatever reason, didn't end the fight, then one can use that same right leg they stepped back with and cross their left leg cutting horizontally across the neck.

Your opponent strikes downward at you. You evade his strike by taking a right step backward while cutting down on his wrist. If that, for whatever reason, didn't end the fight, then one can use that same right leg they stepped back with and cross their left leg cutting horizontally across the neck.
Sounds to me like kocho gaeshi?:confused:

I forgot to ask An-Shu what the name was for crossing feet like that. I don't know exactly what Enson meant by crossing legs... Perhaps he can clarify his question/inquiry.

Best thing to do would be for Enson to post the offending photo here that confused him.

Even better would be to seek out a proper qualified teacher who knows how to use cross-stepping. It is not just an Eastern Martial Arts technique either. When I bought my first Fechtenbuch, (Fighting book or manual. It was printed 1471ish) I was excited to see that we had those same technologies in the West.
I think the only difference is we learned better how to kill with firearms while the East retained lower levels of technology.

History aside, crosstepping is a valid technique and people shouldn't let the ignorance of their teachers hold them back.

Anyone who has military or police etc experience can tell you with a little practice, the about face becomes very second nature. crossing legs is a huge part of footwork in western fencing. western boxing also has a side step in which the legs are crossed. this is all relative proof that it has value. it just takes some practice.

Kyle

after doing some kenjutsu training i saw that there is some crossing legs... it just depens where your feet are in position with your enemy's. not so much a cross step but but almost a body shift while keeping your sword in front of your enemy.

i.e., downward strike (#12) and then "horizontal high" to the head (#2)... upon going to the #2 strike you step across with your lead leg while doing your strike.
now you can also side step with back leg while doing the #2 strike. like i said, just depends how you end up after the #12 strike.
did that make sense?

peace

Not really! But I understood it! does that make sense? lol lol