Can anyone direct me to a website that list both the lineage of Hattori Hanzo as well as the nationality of his lineage. Particularly looking for the nationality of his "grandfather's" era backward.

That stuff is hard to come across, Information on Hanzo Hattori or Hattori Hanzo (depending on whether you're using western or Japanese ordering of a name) is not cheap,so i hope you have a nice storage of cash that you can filter in my direction:ultracool ..but you would be a fool, because i have no proof of information.

Now to be serious, I only know of "hanzo hattori's" life and the story of him and his band of Iga-Ninja, i dont know much about his lineage, nationality (which i presume is Japanese) but the nationality of his father or grandfather/s could possibly be Chinese, but i personally am sticking with Japanese.

There is a some information on him at www.ninpo.org (http://www.ninpo.org) but not a great deal.

-andrew

Can anyone direct me to a website that list both the lineage of Hattori Hanzo as well as the nationality of his lineage. Particularly looking for the nationality of his "grandfather's" era backward.
Here's a good place to start:

http://www.m-network.com/sengoku/haka/masanari450h.html

Let us know what you find!

Here's a good place to start:

http://www.m-network.com/sengoku/haka/masanari450h.html

Let us know what you find!
So far, this is part of what I found. Any suggestions on what to download to correct the problem. Also, it looks like a grave.


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The only thing about him that I have is this:

http://www.skhquest.com/articles/HanzoHattori.aspx

Hope this helps.

I hear there were actually 3 different Hattori families.

From what I understand there were about 4 or 5 ninjas that took on and used the name Hanzo Hattori.

Should this not be in the "traditional" section since it deals with stuff as it was in Japan a few hundred years ago?

And Hattori Hanzo's grandfather was Japanese. His great- great- great- grandfather was Japanese, etc. Hattori Hanzo made a name for himself in the 15th century, but the Hattori family can be found in records of the Japanese goverment at least as far back as the Kamakura era which started in the 12th century.

Of course, they probably thought of themselves as citizens of the section of Japan they lived in and not as Japanese. Interaction between other nations were so rare and off the map for them, that they tended to think of their "country" as the local area and warlord in charge of them. The way they thought about people from Kyushu or Kanto would be pretty much the same way we think about people from Pakistan and Spain. There was a central goverment most of the time that dealt with other countries, but it was so removed from the locals that it did not become part of their self image as citizens. Instead, they dealt with the fuedal lords that answered to the central goverment and took orders from them. Later, when the goverment broke down in the aftermath of the Onin war, the local warlords would set up their own goverments, giving only token loyalty to the central goverment and this feeling would be even more stregthened.

So the nationality of the Hattori family might be described as "Iga" for tens of generations.

Should this not be in the "traditional" section since it deals with stuff as it was in Japan a few hundred years ago?.not traditional... maybe general ninjutsu.

peace

From what I understand there were about 4 or 5 ninjas that took on and used the name Hanzo Hattori.That might be the problem. I've read a few sites that said Hattori was actually Chinese; or that his Mother was Chinese, or that both grandparents were Chinese. Just trying to find out the truth regarding another person referencing that there were quite a few Chinese in Japan being members of Ninja Clans.

That might be the problem. I've read a few sites that said Hattori was actually Chinese; or that his Mother was Chinese, or that both grandparents were Chinese. Just trying to find out the truth regarding another person referencing that there were quite a few Chinese in Japan being members of Ninja Clans.

Proof that there is no shortage of idiocy on the internet. No one with even a little knowledge of Japan's history would say or believe that there were "quite a few Chinese in Japan being members of Ninja Clans."

Sojobow, best to stop trying to get your historical information off of the internet and get a grounding from real sources. Pe!

From what I understand there were about 4 or 5 ninjas that took on and used the name Hanzo Hattori.So far, I've found the same numbers. Also found this link that may add some info.: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6753/HanzoHattori.html

The page starts out with this:


Hattori Hanzo & Hattori Ryu Peter Carlsson
Text and Research by Peter Carlsson Translated by Mats Hjelm v1.0 last updated march 12th 1996
One of the most famous NINJA families in IGA was without doubt the HATTORI family. They came from both the OTOMO HOSOTO, a high member of one of the more important Japanese families, and from China. The OTOMO family was in duty at the royal family mainly because of his knowledge in warfare. The HATTORI sons was later allowed to build their own family lines. ....."


last updated in 96 so things change. See if I can confirm more of the names given in the article and the chinese techniques used by the clans.

So far, I've found the same numbers. Also found this link that may add some info.:

Again, you should do some real research instead of relying on the internet. You might then realize that there was some movement by refugees, etc from China to Japan early on- like the 8th century or so. But by the time the Hattori family was known in Japan (records from the Kamakura era 12th/13th century), that was no longer really the case. By the time they were known as a ninja family (16th century) you have well over five centuries difference time wise.

It would kind of be like me trying to say I had some sort of relationship with the Danish homeland because part of my family was there 300 years or so ago. Trying to say that I have kept our secret Viking sword art alive despite the move and the changing times is just plain silly. Which is how those of us familiar with Japanese history look on stories of Chinese ninja in Japan.

Again, you really should take the time away from your computer to do some real research. You also should take some courses on critical thinking and the like as well as trying to pay attention to facts and try to piece things together. I can't help you if you miss the facts already there, like the fact that the Otomo family was the one that came from China and the Hattori were an off-shoot of that clan. Otomo is not a name linked with ninjutsu, so it is kind of silly to think that all the ninja skills they supposably brought with them from China made it into only one small branch family. That type of thing is common sense and critical thinking and if no one can help you in that. But you can study Japanese history and understand just how much differences there was between the times Chinese were coming to Japan in large numbers and the time that ninja finally developed.

The more I look at that article that Sojobow relies on, the more I am confused. It says that the Hattori family came from the Otomo family and China. I am not clear anymore if it is trying to say that the Otomo clan came from China, or if there was something else. It gives only details about how the Otomo clan had some of it's members start to use a different family name. (That is not rare in Japanese history.) But it gives no mention of how the clan was supposed to have come from China in the article. Nor does it give any direct sources for the China statement for me to go and check.

The Otomo clan was active in the imperial court since before they started to record history. They are mentioned in the Nihon Shoki and other early history books based on earlier stories. It is kind of hard to say they came from China.

And of course, the bottom of the page said the article should not be counted as fact. Sojobow seems to have missed that. The same author was the one who accidently put in a referene to the Koga Hachiman Tengu that was discussed a while ago. No such group existed and it is bad Japanese. The author does not read Japanese AFAIK, and has shown no wide knowledge of Japanese history. I have trouble with people just trying to zoom in on one piece of Japanese history (like ninjutsu history) without a firm background in the wider picture. I also have trouble with people taking stuff from Hatsumi and not noticing how he puts qualifiers in such as "according to oral tradition" or "the stories passed down in the scrolls say..."

Again, this article should not be taken as fact and clearly says so. I could provide a lot better info on the subject matter, but I only know what I know and can not give books and page numbers for others to check for themselves. So for now I will refrain.

What is it with Neo folk and China? I was once having a discussion with a "shodan in Koga Hai-Lung ryu" in which he defended the "authenticity" of Ashida Kim's system. When I pointed out to him that the sound L doesn't exist in Japanese, he immediately changed his position claiming that technically, Ashida's system is mostly Chinese...

What is it with Neo folk and China? ..I can't speak for ALL Modern (you say Neo), however, I do think it is the other way around. What is with other folk and Japan?

I first said: lineage of Hattori Hanzo, knowing this is incorrect in Modern english but used the name in this order to avoid the discussion we're now having.

Genin Andrew comes next with "Information on Hanzo Hattori or Hattori Hanzo (depending on whether you're using western or Japanese ordering of a name)"

gmunoz reply: www.skhquest.com/articles/ (http://www.skhquest.com/articles/)HanzoHattori.aspx

and: 4 or 5 ninjas that took on and used the name Hanzo Hattori.

Don Roley with: Should this not be in the "traditional" section since it deals with stuff as it was in Japan a few hundred years ago?............And Hattori Hanzo's grandfather was Japanese.

Peter Carlsson them presents us with something very interesting. His article title is translated as:
Hattori Hanzo & Hattori Ryu Peter Carlsson while his weblink is http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/6753/HanzoHattori.html.....

Back to Don Roley with a couple of jewels:

1) Again, you really should take the time away from your computer to do some real research.

2) But you can study Japanese history and understand just how much differences there was between the times Chinese were coming to Japan in large numbers and the time that ninja finally developed. (Who asked???}

3) Doing what his previous post told me not to do. : The more I look at that article that Sojobow relies on, the more I am confused. (Don Roley)

4) No such group existed and it is bad Japanese.

5) I have trouble with people just trying to zoom in on one piece of Japanese history (like ninjutsu history)........

Then your: What is it with Neo folk and China?

But the real diamond in the ruff came from our resident Traditional Historian and Moderator with: Proof that there is no shortage of idiocy on the internet.

Actually, the thread question is directed to finding out a warfare technique taught to the Iga and Koga during the time of (dare I say) Hanzo Hattori. The technique was of Chinese origin. However, if Hanzo had no Chinese ties in lineage, he may not have been taught the technique (actually 2 stratagems). If no Chinese were residing in the two areas, those living there would not have been taught how to use the two strategems and this is the reason for the INQUIRY.

Seems like either Genin Andrew's "Information on Hanzo Hattori or Hattori Hanzo (depending on whether you're using western or Japanese ordering of a name)" or Don Roley's "Proof that there is no shortage of idiocy on the internet." is correct. Either all who put the Hanzo before the Hattori, or those who mention the word "China," or those who aren't really interested in the magnificance of the history of the Japanese are called those with no shortage of idiocy on the internet.

At least this idiots question has been partially answered. There were Chinese (from China) in the areas and still imagrating during the time of (dare I say) Hanzo. Thus, they may have taught the 2 Stratagems. Now all I have to find out is how the Strategems work.

At least this idiots question has been partially answeredYou wrote it, not me, but I'll agree with you there.


Actually, the thread question is directed to finding out a warfare technique taught to the Iga and Koga during the time of (dare I say) Hanzo Hattori. The technique was of Chinese origin. ... There were Chinese (from China) in the areas and still imagrating during the time of (dare I say) Hanzo. Thus, they may have taught the 2 Stratagems. Now all I have to find out is how the Strategems work.Well, if this is really your purpose I'll make things REALLY easy for you. It's a well known fact that the samurai living during that time period studied "the 7 Military Classics" of China. Ralph D. Sawyer has translated all seven of these texts into English and they are available in one big volume entitled "the 7 Military Classics of Ancient China". All seven of those texts were fairly well known to the samurai before, after and during Hanzo's lifetime. You would probably have an easier time finding the answer to your question by reading Ralph Sawyer's translation rather than asking if "Hanzo's grandparents were Chinese".

:shrug:



:readrules

Personally, I'm hoping sojobow learns to use the quote function before I go permanently cross-eyed... :rolleyes:

Jeff

Ummmm.... can someone please explain to me why Sojobow just summarized every post on the thread?? I mean, what was the point?? :idunno:

sojobow, please help out by using the quote button. it would help. i understand that you are trying to show a pattern but it does lead to confusion.

peace

At least this idiots question has been partially answered. There were Chinese (from China) in the areas and still imagrating during the time of (dare I say) Hanzo. Thus, they may have taught the 2 Stratagems.

Oh, and where did you get your proof that there were Chinese teaching the Japanese ninjutsu in the 16th century? Or that there were Chinese in the Iga area as late as that?

This does seem to be the agenda that you have tried to hit time and time again. Since you lack any type of link to Japan, it now seems that you want to create the impression that ninjutsu is a Chinese art and leave open the idea that schools such as the Koga Yamabushi ryu should not be treated as frauds even though there is no evidence of their existence in Japan. It is of course a silly theory, but you only have to create the impression and not really provide proof or impress those that know the subject matter well.

Again, ninjutsu is a Japanese, not a Chinese art. Arts that can show proof of a link to Japan can be talked about in the traditional section even if they train in how to shoot a pistol or clear rooms like a SWAT team. Any art that uses the ninjutsu name but can not show a link to Japan can post here. If you do not claim to be anything other than a modern invention like Tew ryu, then there is no problem. But if you claim to teach or have trained in an art that goes back a few generations and are not in the traditional section, then I guess the best thing to do would be to try to convince people that your art is not in there only because it is a Chinese ninjutsu art.

sojobow, please help out by using the quote button. it would help. i understand that you are trying to show a pattern but it does lead to confusion. peace
At least you noticed the pattern of those using Hattori Hanzo versus Hanzo Hattori. Personally, I really don't care about this "link to Japan" or this "in Japan." What I want to do is learn to Win today! Don't care much which Nation provides usefull assistance. Don't care much if its Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Scooby Doo, Shoot You Ryu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Stick Fighting, American Special Ops, Rome's Romanizations or why some Kanji is vertical and other's horizontal or why so much "Ninjutsu" was originally written in Chinese and not Japanese. Important thing, did the techniques taught work. If the Samurai attacked Iga and Iga beat them back, I want to know what Strategy was used by Iga and what fighting techniques were used to Win. Don't give a flying bee about the correctness of the History "in Japan." Who won and how they won is of interest. Have enough trouble with American History and how Bush won Florida. Again, operative word: Won.

Don't care much which Nation provides usefull assistance. Don't care much if its Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Scooby Doo, Shoot You Ryu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Stick Fighting, American Special Ops, Rome's Romanizations or why some Kanji is vertical and other's horizontal or why so much "Ninjutsu" was originally written in Chinese and not Japanese...
When you wake up in the morning, you beat yourself on the head with pots and pans, don't you?

Don't give a flying bee about the correctness of the History "in Japan." ...
THAT has been abundantly clear.

Don't give a flying bee about the correctness of the History "in Japan."
Which is why I asked what the deal is with Neo people and China, seeing as ninjutsu is a Japanese phenomenon.

Who won and how they won is of interest.
In China, you mean? :wink2: In that case, why don't you do us all a big favour and move on to a couple of forums for the discussion of China and its martial history - emptyflower.com for example?

At least you noticed the pattern of those using Hattori Hanzo versus Hanzo Hattori. Personally, I really don't care about this "link to Japan" or this "in Japan." What I want to do is learn to Win today!

Then this begs the obvious question, sojobow, why is it that you were the one that started a thread pertaining to the familial linega of Hattori Hanzo?? You seem to be contradicting yourself. Again.

Don't care much which Nation provides usefull assistance. Don't care much if its Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Scooby Doo, Shoot You Ryu, Shaolin Kung Fu, Stick Fighting, American Special Ops, Rome's Romanizations or why some Kanji is vertical and other's horizontal or why so much "Ninjutsu" was originally written in Chinese and not Japanese.

Then perhaps the "ninjutsu forums" are not the most appropriate place for you.

If the Samurai attacked Iga and Iga beat them back, I want to know what Strategy was used by Iga and what fighting techniques were used to Win.

If you want to know the strategies and tactics employed by the historical "Iga ninja", then:
1) You should be asking this in the Traditional Ninjutsu forum.
2) You are studying the wrong art. Togakure ryu Ninjutsu is the closest thing to what you are asking for.
3) You are, in fact, asking questions that pertain to the accuracy of Japanese history.

Don't give a flying bee about the correctness of the History "in Japan."

You just contradicted yourself again. You claim no interest in Japanese history, but the subject you claim to be interested in (the strategies and tactics of the Iga "ninja") has a hell of a lot to do with Japanese history and culture.

Who won and how they won is of interest. Have enough trouble with American History and how Bush won Florida. Again, operative word: Won.

This is not the Study. Discuss your political opinions elsewhere.

Laterz.

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Michael Billings
-MT S-Moderator

In the end, Iga was conquered by Nobunaga's forces.
What I find interesting, is how and why the martial heritage of Iga has survived to this day.

What I find interesting, is how and why the martial heritage of Iga has survived to this day.

Prolly cause the Iga folks got real chummy with the Tokugawas. :)

Ba-da-bip, ba-da-bing-bang-boom.:ultracool