Dojo / Dojang and religious symbols

[white belt]

I am a school owner and teacher and have been presented with a bit of an annoying problem. I'm sure some of you have heard about France and California with the controversy over Muslim headscarves. Today it became a potential problem in my Dojang.

A Muslim father has been bringing his two elementary school sons to me for about two years for lessons with my kids group. They are nice people and both parents have expressed gratitude to me several times about my sense of fairplay while teaching their children. Today the father shared with me that he would like his wife to join in the lessons. I have a few of the other parents training with their kids and it has worked out really well. He asked me if her (mom) wearing her Muslim headscarf, while training in the Dojang with the others, would be a problem. I replied that religious icons or symbols of any kind, that were conspicuous, were not allowed so as not to distract or detract from the training environment.

I told him (Muslim dad) the story of another potential student whose mother forbid her from bowing to the U.S. flag due to her Christian beliefs. The mom asked if that would be a problem and I said "yes". I explained there was no religious conotation behind it and that it was a show of respect and nothing more. She refused to allow her daughter to do as I require each of the other students to do and I explained that favortism is not allowed in my Dojang. I then reccommended a reputable Christian M.A. school in the area and she left in a fit of anger.

The Muslim father listened but, he said he had some thinking to do and left. I understand the potential for a lawsuit here and all. Any constructive thoughts on my situation?

white belt

[bignick]

i think you did the right thing...obviously you didn't do this out of any sort of religious discrimination...outside distractions should not be allowed in the dojang..whether or not a headscarf is distracting is up to debate...but obviously you felt it was and you were upfront and honest about it...

i feel you have very little to fear from a lawsuit...you are a private organization and have a right to refuse admittance to anyone you choose for any reason...may i suggest talking with some of the other reputable instructors in your area and if one of them will allow the headscarf in class, recommend the family to that school...or perhaps you have or could pursue starting an all woman's class...maybe that would be a more acceptable situation in which to practice without a headscarf

[Rob Broad]

Is there any chance of the headscarf interfering with her training, or being a safety issue in her training. The headscarf is more than just a religous symbol , to many it is a cultural symbol, just like the American Flag. If the headscarf is not a safety issue, thn I would accept it. If you think it might be a problem for other students, you could always suggest private lessons for the family.

[terryl965]

Well as far as a lawsuit is concern, there is not one. As a business you have the right to refuse service to anybody(bottom line). As far as a school though you have to respect ones cultures the head garment is not religous it is culture of there country. I have a mother who will wear hers and she competes in tourneys and understands that each tourament may have there own set of rules for this stituation. When she sparrs she goes to the restroom and take off her garment and put on her headgear never takes it off on the floor the headgear because she must have her head cover at all time while she is outside of there house. Hopes this helps,good luck with the family and GOD BLESS AMERICA

[AaronLucia]

Um...when in Rome, do as the Romans. :P

Although ultimately, you must always remember that you will bear the consequences of your actions, good or bad. :P

[OC Kid]

We have a written school policy about wearing items such as watches ect. Do you have a written policy???? If not you should.

[Sin]

I understand this problem very much.....I being a STRONG beliver in the constatution i belive she has the right to wear her head scarf...now on the other hand..you also can refuse service. Your best bet is to call it a safety issue or make it a policy to wear certain things to the Dojo.
doing something like martial arts requires you to follow your teachers ways. Maybe not to a personal sense but to a INSTINCTIVE FIGHTERS sense. what you learn from your teacher will help you one day. If it means taking a punch to the gut and standing still wile it happens...so be it......50 push ups...so be it.....following dress code in the dojo it must be done...the Dojo is for training, NOT for praying. Martial Arts is not about your belive structer its all about how you react.
But please everyone keep an open mind and an open heart to the many differant cultures found in he USA, because thats what America is all about.

[Shurikan]

We say prayer before each class, those who do not believe in prayer are just silent. The only jewelry allowed in class is a wedding ring, because there are some things that are more important to individuals then for the saftey of the class. I personally would not have a problem with the headscarf for a couple of reasons. 1) you might call it a distraction but your students probably could use a few of those hate to see them get in a confrontation on the street and get distracted by there opponent cause they wore a scarf or hat. 2) the respect that you want for your dojang (THIS ONLY MY OPIONION) should be returned to each student training there. The request for head scarf is not so they look cool or some gang clothing or anything it is there way of life.

In short i support any decision a school owner makes for there own school, But i would have no problem with your school or any other if a student wore there cultural scarf to class.

[Flatlander]

Clealy, this is a safety issue. How serious is she, really, about self defense and H2h combat? Ultimately, she's there for training, not socializing. You MUST stick to your guns here and make no exceptions. The very second that you do, you've opened the door for whatever other 'personal' issues may come along.

Best of luck to you, sir.

[Spud]

I respect your consistency and her spiritual needs, but it is your school and your rules. Can you simply adopt a policy on what attire/behavior is allowed/required on the mat? Approved gi, belt, school or plain shirts, specific limits on jewelry and head wear. Bowing to the flags, classmates, and instructors, turning away from the instructor or flags to adjust your uniform, how you address each other on the mat – the basics of your school etiquette. Then it is simply in black and white and not you having to justify calls on a case-by-case basis. And it also helps the newer belts figure out what is going on and why this guy is calling me mister

[Aaron Little]

Any thing someone wears in class is fair game to be used against them in sparring. I am sure there are a lot of great options for chokes that could take advantage of just such a headscarf.

In all actuality if it is something that she wears everyday, which of course it is, she needs to know the limitations it places on her ability to protect herself.

[white belt]

Thank you all for your insightful responses. I had one Christian gentlemen a few years ago say that he liked my school but, "didn't want his boy learning about the Yin Yang" on the S. Korean flag. He insisted that it was a symbol of the devil. I let that one keep shopping.

I half expect to be presented with some form of litigation based on discrimination by my students father concerning the scarf. There are a couple of students that right away would sew on "Jesus Saves" patches or some other such thing based on her precedent. I would then have no leg to stand on to defend anyone participating in their cultural / religious expressions from what I can see thus far. That could destroy the business end of things very quickly. I can't allow an environment of non-friendly confrontation in a facility where I pay the insurance premiums either.

Keep the thoughts coming.

[Feisty Mouse]

white belt - I think you did the right thing, in both situations you describe. The fact that you have a no-expections policy makes things more simple and easier for you, I think. It also lets the person or people asking about your policies know that you are trying to be fair to everyone.

I hope this woman will come train with you. Although perhaps she can take off her headscarf in a women-only environment? I think it indeed would pose a safety issue.

[Mark Weiser]

In starting a school you MUST have it as netural as possible. That means only allow the following in the Dojo.


Uniform(color/weight/size/style)
Patches(school Patch, National Flag, Martial Art Symbol or Flag0
Belt(color/sytle, length, how to wear the knot)
Shoes( Shoes while in Dojo and whetever allowed on the Mat)
Appearence(Haircuts or Neatly kept ,trimmed nails, Clean Uniform and Body, Body Odor control, Hygenie)
Just to give an example. In this day and age unless you have by laws addressing these issues you are open to a lawsuit. And if you run into a probelm not covered. I suggest doing an ammendment to your bylaws and explain the reason.

[Zepp]

Hiya white belt, it's good to see you around here again.

From a completely non-legal standpoint, I believe you're being unfair to the woman in question. A headscarf is not an overt religious symbol the way a "Jesus Saves" patch obviously is. The woman wears it because she believes that is what God wants her to do. It's not intended to make a statement of any kind. It's comparable to a religious Jewish man wearing a yamoulke everywhere. (I assume you would also disallow this in your dojang).

Unless you honestly believe there is a safety issue here, I think you should consider refining your policy to only exclude apparel of an overtly religious nature.

[Tydive]

A compromise idea. How about her wearing some kind of skull cap? I am thinking of something like those swim caps women wear while swimming, only of a lighter material. That way she is covered and you don't have to worry about the safety issues of the head scarf...

[jwreck]

In the Dojang I used to train in, there were several women that wore head-scarves. It was no big deal to anyone. I don't see why it should even be an issue. It would be about the same as someone wearing a head band or bandana to keep their hair up.

[white belt]

Thanks again for the thoughts. To clarify I don't feel it is a safety issue concerning her field of vision being compromised. I am more concerned from the standpoint of someone being overtly demonstrative or being taken as such by others who are more private with their beliefs. Then I may have fertile ground for bad circumstances not anticipated. It goes without saying that the places that we train can sometimes breed or appear to breed favortism.

I have heard a story from two sources concerning a hospital staff worker who was eating pork in the hospital cafeteria and a coworker reported this to their superiors as an affront to her Muslim faith. The management let it go and the Muslim woman turned and successfully sued the hospital on some type of religious intolerance charge. The hospital then turned around and fired the woman who started this by eating her ham sandwich! Appeals are pending last I heard.

I admit having mixed feelings (concerning the scarf) on an emotional level having worked with the children of the family for so long. They had confidence problems dealing with self esteem. They are now realizing they have as much potential as anyone from any other culture. I guess this is the real bug in my head. Justified or not I don't like this circumstance for more reasons than I first realized before starting this thread.

The variety of opinions offered here has broadened my perspective though. I will just have to take it on the chin in some way.

Thanks.

[Aaron Little]

You expressed above a concern that if this particular student were allowed to wear the headscarf other students might want to have “Jesus Saves” patches on their uniforms.

As the issue is one of religious expression and not of safety I pose the following question:

What would be the policy for a prospective student with “Jesus Saves” tattooed on his neck?

[white belt]

A fixture instead of an adornment question. Tattoos are a whole other can of worms. Religious ones in conspicuous places could cause problems as well I suppose. Good question. Right now I am looking for less questions and more answers. I'm torn enough over items worn. Mike Tyson or Kimo type tattoos are an invitation to trouble IMO. I would let someone decorated in that fashion look elsewhere. Kids are easily influenced and body art limits future career prospects if too conspicuous. I had one guy coming in that was involved in special effects makeup. He thought it was entertaining to wear contact lenses that looked like real snake eyes and then stare down his sparring partner. I had to tell him to knock it off and take his hobby outside of the training hall amusing or not.

I have a particular religious viewpoint that I don't share with my students. It doesn't matter concerning my goals for them. The tattoo thing is a tough one. Christian or not I would hope for more conservative discretion in my training hall.

Thanks (?)

[Aaron Little]

White Belt,
I have put a lot of thought into your question, as it is one that is completely new to me. My question regarding the tattoo was more of a seed for thought than anything else. It is my belief that you, as the business owner, should have the right to set the rules pertaining to your business.

For myself I see the individuality of the students as being very important to what we do. There are no uniforms in my classes. With my major demographic being college students I see a vast area of t-shirts in class. Some funny, some political, some religious, and some just plain strange. I do have several students with tattoos. One that comes to mind is on the guy's neck and I am sure some would find it rather offensive. I know that he certainly regrets having it. I have students with odd/unique facial piercings. I do ask them to take them out during class but that is only in regards to the safety of everyone involved. I feel rather comfortable is saying that I have never lost a student due to the appearance of others in the class.

What type of class is it that you do?

[Zepp]

I have heard a story from two sources concerning a hospital staff worker who was eating pork in the hospital cafeteria and a coworker reported this to their superiors as an affront to her Muslim faith. The management let it go and the Muslim woman turned and successfully sued the hospital on some type of religious intolerance charge. The hospital then turned around and fired the woman who started this by eating her ham sandwich! Appeals are pending last I heard.

The major difference between this situation and yours is that you're not dealing with employees. You're entitled to make some arbitrary decisions about what you allow your customers to do.

I think the bigger issue is what you mentioned about being accused of favoritism. Dealing with that requires you to assess what kind of atmosphere you have at your dojang.

If you do decide to allow the woman to train while wearing her headscarf, please let us know how it goes.

[white belt]

I have a Taekwondo Dojang. I have worked out doing submissions with some talented grapplers / competitors in their club. Tattoos abound. Mean looking guys, nice personalities. A very polite thumping. In my Dojang the students are more the Joe Average / Soccer Mom type. Even though both groups are assets to our community, people do tend to stereotype.

The hospital / work environment, as opposed to club, point is well taken. I brought that story into the mix just as an example of how far some people will go to make a stand. Also how far off center attempted justice can get. Mr. Murphy (of Murphy's law) seems to visit me from time to time. I'm hoping he doesn't have Muslim relatives.

Thanks again for the opportunity to have your thoughts.

[Rob Broad]

WhiteBelt

Your jobs is to teach your art, and if the headscarf isn't a safety issue then you should allow it. Your are infringing on her persoanl rights and freedoms. By allowing it to be worn in class you might do a lot towards helping others embrace other cultures. Sometimes instructors see it as their job to help influence their students lives and guide them down the right path. While this may be true with children it really does hold and sway when it comes to adults. You are offering a service, the teaching of your style of martial arts. Just imagine if this woman was a professional cleaner, and you wanted to hire her but she refused because of your beliefs, that wouldn't be fare, and you would feel unjustly dealt with.

Your job is to instruct your style, unless you have a valid reason not to do so then you should teach her. If it was person convicted of assualts then you would have justification not to teach but to not do so because of her head scarf is very prejudice.

[kenpo tiger]

I agree with Mark. If you have an established dress code, then there is no issue.

On the other hand - and, mind you, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate - is this woman wears her headscarf at all times, then it would be on her if she was to be attacked, wouldn't it? Just some food for thought.

As to certain Jewish men wearing yarmulkes: they are not the same as a headscarf. The principle is the same - that one's head must be covered at all times - but they are typically flat on the head, worn on the back of the head, and securely fastened. They do not impede one's eyesight nor interfere with physical functioning. In fact, members of the Israeli army wear their yarmulkes (or kipahs) under their helmets. However, it is considered part of the uniform. KT

[white belt]

On the dress code issue, I have a face to face conversation with each of my prospective students explaining dress code. They all understand there are no exceptions. If I allow "culture" or place of origin to dictate appearance, then individual self importance wins over the group and environment. That scenarios results are obvious. If a person disagrees with my requirements of non-favortism, then I try to help them find an appropriate alternative (competing school) with sincerity. The dress code replys are good points and I agree.

On the subject of "my job", part of the description is to make sure my group (who is conforming out of respect to their fellow students) is given a level point of reference when training with a person or persons who is / are little more than a total stranger in mock mortal combat situations. If someones appearance is viewed as a form of condescention in a personal or cultural way, antagonism develops. I have CEOs, etc. sparring with waiters. The plain white uniform sheds outside title and gives those with a maleable pysche a chance at refining their perception of self. Being demonstrative about your religion in said environment dismantles the core of this concept and many times breeds contempt. Contempt compromises safe training and that in turn greatly diminishes the purpose of training to ensure ones personal safety. I would be discriminating to a multi ethnic group of 60-70 as opposed to one person. Not enjoyable but, much more fair and perhaps safer for the "special" one.

I am very appreciative again for the comments. I am beginning to seperate my emotions from my logical instincts better with each reply. I am lucky to have found such a good source of intelligent opinion as this forum.

[Mark Weiser]

The Major Problem is we are all becoming a great melting pot in which we all at one time or another either by intent or by accident will offend others by our own actions and way of life.

The Key to ones character is how do you respond and react to new problems. In dealing with this issue there maybe other questions not asked yet.


Has the student be attending the classes prior to the incident
Has the student recently had a religious conversion or experience
Pandora's Box once opened leads to other problems - meaning this once you have allowed yourself to crack open the door. You will have set things in motion that you will have no control over. This means for instance if someone wishes to wear other traditional religious items. You deny them they will in turn point out the fact you have allowed the other person to wear their reiligous item.
Honestly if you want to practice your religion then it should be left to the reiligous instution you belong too. Not in the Dojo It is a place of Business to teach an Art not to practice or condone a paticular religion.

This will open a whole bunch of problems if allowed. In this day and age of the instant lawsuit you and I as Instructors have to always be careful.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

[white belt]

An added note. I have been teaching this woman's two little boys for nearly two years. They had very low self esteem due to their origins and being in a potentially hostile new homeland. I catch them when they fall and explain to them that other people (at public school) who may say they are weak or substandard are lying and that they can do or achieve what any other person can regardless of culture of origin or appearance. I teach them that the best revenge is success and then forgiveness. They are bright and goodhearted. I add this for any who come late to the thread and want to label me. If I am to be labeled, at least read the entire thread thus far.

Thanks.

[AnimEdge]

Its good that you have a no exeptions policy in your school, i am unsure about the legal aspect of things but i would guess it woudl be a good idea to come up with some written laws and uniform guidlines if you dont have them.

In my school(Ninjutsu) the guy who was once incharge of the (RBWI) Robert Bussey broke off from the traditional Togakaru Ryu style manly becouse of the religouse aspect of it, so when he came back to the states(from what i know) the only thing he changed when he tought was the religouse aspect, it was switched from western believes to cristianity.

I dont know the spacifics of what he tought sence he is retired but his predeccor school: PPC(Person Protect Concepts) In this school the only religouse anything said or done is in the spacifics of the Academy Tentets, we only say: :love, Joy, Peace,Patitence,Kindess,faithfullness,Gentleness, and self-control

Now we only say those but they have religouse meanings like:
Faithfullness: I am faithfull to fullfill gods will for my life

Now that is obviosly a cristanity thing

Though the tenets are of cristan scource there also general for everything, faithfullness can also mean to stay true to your self and others and ect ect.

That and we do like a few secounds of silence when we bow our heads are the only religouse anthing in our school

We dont bow or anything instead we shake hands when we spar
and so that generaly get rid of any religouse whatever, like you said about the Ying Yang being viewed as "the devil", and not bowing at the flag, sence we dont do antthing like this we have no problems, but clothing might be diffrent

Im a supporter of the whole everyone to them selfs when it comes to religions, i am cristian(i think, though i cant spell it well) and i am far from a religouse person(in fact i cant spell that right eather), i dont care what your religion is and i dont care if you care what mine is so to me when it comes to the scarfs and other clothing that if they want to wear it then they should, now in my HS(whitch i just graduated) they had a no hat policy, but they allowed those head scarfs and no one really cared, so i am gladded that my school is very low on the religions aspects of MA

Now when it comes to those in a MA setting is diffrent, many schools have a strict uniform policy, you come in wearing the school Gi and nothing else, no jewly no watches no nothing, so underthat i view that she and anyone should have to take off there scarfs out of repect of the school becouse that is the schools uniform and if they dont like it they dont have to pay.
Now in my school we dont have a set uniform, you wear whatever it is you can wear to get the job(techs strikes so on) that you dont mind ripped, now a guy in my class once worn one of those jewish hats those little small ones, and no one said nor cared that he wore it, and as for that we had no problem throwing him and making him to stuff(with or without the hat) that made his hat fall off, after awail he took it off tired of putting it back on and has not warn it sence. Now if a girl warn one of those scarfs we would warn her that it might get ripped and torn and might fall off and if she had no problem with that we would go on with class like she didnt wear it, now if her religion required to wear some big spike metal hat, something that could injure someone we wopuld have asked her to remove it.

Anyhow i think (due to it seams you are stricked no excuse policy) that you stick with what you said and if you get sued you probly(dont hold me on it) be safe as long as you never played "favorites" and alowed some one to not bow or wear a hat or anthing then you will probly be fine :P

[CanuckMA]

The difference between the scarf and the 'Jesus Saves' patch is that the Muslim woman MUST wear the scarf. The patch is optional. In the same way that an observant Jewish man would wear a kipa, an observan Sikh wears a turban. The scarf is not a safety issue.

[AnimEdge]

If the scarfe is not a safty issue and she doesnt mind having it yanked and pulled on then i woudl think it would be fine to ware...unless it goes agenst the uniform code of the school :P

[MichiganTKD]

The problem is, if you allow a student to wear a Muslim headcovering in class, regardless of the reason, other students will likely use that as an excuse to sport religious or political outerwear of their own. It's an all or nothing proposition. Either every student is allowed to wear head coverings or none do. I've no problem with students having religious or political convictions. But you cannot make exceptions for one student but not another.
Aside from the safety issue (lowered peripheral vision), I would tell her no students are allowed to wear head coverings in class, period. Only exception is authorized class gear or doctor-authorized gear. Otherwise, nothing a uniform can't cover.
One of the reasons we wear white uniforms in class is to eliminate distinctions between students. If one student is allowed to dress differently, regardless of reason, all that goes out the window.

[AnimEdge]

I agree with you but in mine no one really cares what you wear as long as they can do everything in it, i could wear a big hat in mine and no one would care but if it goes agesnt the rules of the dojo then there should be no exeptions

[bignick]

i do agree with the previous posts that there is a difference between the jesus saves patch and the headscarf...but i still stick to my guns that if that is your policy in your school than you need to uphold it. this reminds of the woman in florida who tried to get her driver's liscense photo with the whole burka on because she had recently converted to Islam...all you could see was here eyes...now i respect her beliefs and i feel she should be allowed to wear it in her daily life...but where's the common sense?

it doesn't have a whole lot to do with the current debate...but it just popped into my head reading these posts

[AnimEdge]

Common sense? what a oximoron(sp) :P

[white belt]

Thanks for the observations. There are Christians who in their faith MUST advertise and help others onboard. The lady who did not allow her daughter to bow to the flags MUST not allow her to. I am not against them adhering to their beliefs. They are informed before joining the school as to the guidelines. I have certain beliefs as well. Mine are private so as not to infringe on those members who do join.

I have known this lady for nearly two years. I like her and her family. Her sons being students of mine will not allow me to give her favor over others already a part of the school. I understand the importance to her in what she wears. I am not pursuing her to be a student, her husband approached me. I would not ask anyone to forsake their religion to be a member of my school. Just wanted to make that point clear.

Again thanks.

[AnimEdge]

good point :P

[Marginal]

Thanks for the observations. There are Christians who in their faith MUST advertise and help others onboard. The lady who did not allow her daughter to bow to the flags MUST not allow her to. I am not against them adhering to their beliefs. They are informed before joining the school as to the guidelines. I have certain beliefs as well. Mine are private so as not to infringe on those members who do join.

Still, one wonders if she ever thinks at all about requesting the same regarding the pledge of allegance.


I have known this lady for nearly two years. I like her and her family. Her sons being students of mine will not allow me to give her favor over others already a part of the school. I understand the importance to her in what she wears.

I was wondering if there could be a compromise reached by simply having her wear headgear during training. It's more about the head being covered than anything else isn't it?

[white belt]

Headgear for the entire duration of the class. That is an interesting point. Does she have to wear the scarf only? I don't know. We don't wear headgear for most of our classes. Would that be a stumbling block I wonder. I drain my students sweat w/o their heads being covered. Would she be able to handle it and would she want to. I am wincing at the comfort issue but, maybe to her it would not be an issue. Anybody reading this thread please jump in and express your opinions and understanding of the religious signifigance of the scarf / headgear point made by Marginal. Thank you for your insight.

Also, is physical contact with adult male students, while training, forbidden under Muslim scrutiny? I haven't had the opportunity to ask that one.

Thanks.

[Rob Broad]

I would schedule a sit down with her and her husband, and see what exactly they are looking for ,and what is permitable and what is not. If you think you can get by with what the want and can allow then talk to your students to see if there any objections. From there you can plot a course, whether it be her in class, her doing private lessons with you, her not inclass, or teh family completely leaving. The family completely leaving is teh worst case scenario, and hopefully that won't happen.


Headgear for the entire duration of the class. That is an interesting point. Does she have to wear the scarf only? I don't know. We don't wear headgear for most of our classes. Would that be a stumbling block I wonder. I drain my students sweat w/o their heads being covered. Would she be able to handle it and would she want to. I am wincing at the comfort issue but, maybe to her it would not be an issue. Anybody reading this thread please jump in and express your opinions and understanding of the religious signifigance of the scarf / headgear point made by Marginal. Thank you for your insight.

Also, is physical contact with adult male students, while training, forbidden under Muslim scrutiny? I haven't had the opportunity to ask that one.

Thanks.

[SMP]

I think this is a very good Subject.

Here are some other questions to consider.



Do you think that it is only a religious symbol? - or a way of living?

Is it not allowed because it is a safety concern or because it is a religious symbol?

If a student had a tattoo of a religious symbol that was not covered by your school uniform would you ask them to cover it?

[Akula]

I was going to try to stay out of this thread, but here it goes.

My understanding (and please, someone correct me if I'm wrong) is that the head covering is more of a cultural issue, not a religious one. When working with some people from Pakistan previously, the husband approached a swim instructor I know and asked if his wife and kids could take lessons. The answer was yes, and the wife and daughters showed up in full coverings for the first class. They were then informed that this could not work as it is a very large safety issue in water. After talking with the husband, he agreed to allow his family to wear 'western' style suits for the lessons. No problems from then on. All it seemed to come down to was the husband giving permission to his wife and daughters to do this.

Second thought - if allowed, would all of your current students be okay with this, or would they have a problem?

[CanuckMA]

The covering of the hair is religious, not a symbol but an obligation. The style and amount is more cultural.

[white belt]

Some of the questions have been covered in earlier posts but, the consistency of analysis is noted and appreciated. Thanks for your time and keep sharing.

white belt

[bignick]

just checking to see if there have been any further developments...have you had a conversation with the husband about this again?

[white belt]

No, I may have a chance tomorrow or Thursday.

Thanks.

[bignick]

oh...thanks...just wondering...people kept offering all their advice and opinions...and i was wondering if anything actually got resolved

[Maltair]

I'm kinda suprised this point didn't come up...

Just on a business level, you would be closing your doors to all customer's that wear a head dress. Depending on you location, that could be a lot of customers.

[white belt]

Update time. The father dropped off the kids for their Tuesday lesson. Went well. Afterwards, as people were gathering their things and exchanging goodbyes, I greeted the dad and let him know in general how his sons did. I mentioned (very cordially) that in reference to our short conversation last week that if he had any further questions on "the topic" discussed I can explain things further. He replied "That's okay, I too can explain things". He made a rather sour expression as he finished his remark, and had his boys bid me goodnight. That was that.

I have my impression of his implication. Opinions are welcome.

Thanks.

[bignick]

hmm...well..i don't know how much more you can do other than actually talk in depth with him...you made the offer, he didn't want to take it...but it was made nonetheless....

thanks for the update

[CanuckMA]

I'd say that you have just lost 2 students and possibly a number of referals. I don't know the ethnic make up of your location, but you have closed your doors to religious Muslims, Jews and Sikhs. I don't agree with your decision. But it's your dojo.

[white belt]

I would have to agree about losing the sons as students soon. You left out demonstrative Christians on the list by the way. The make up of my school is largely Christian, some others who I don't have reason to know, etc. I have Caucasian, Black, Asian and Hispanic ethnicities. If the father is considering me to be a bigot or some other such thing, he is wrong. I am not concerned about his family making trouble, it's the potential backlash from a militant Christian who wants to push the issue of equality. I have and will in the future have that mentality come in for lessons. I am a small business owner and must be vigilant for lawsuits, etc. I have less a chance for legalities with my present situation. I don't like it but, I must make a sacrifice from time to time.

An added note. The family has a close friend (Muslim) who teaches M.A in the area. They chose me because, according to them, I have proven to be more trustworthy. The other gentleman has a rep. for financial greed. What a tangled mess, eh?

I am not giving up on them. They may yet settle down. I appreciate the diversity of perspectives shared guys. I will post any new developments.

Thanks.

[kenpo tiger]

I'd say that you have just lost 2 students and possibly a number of referals. I don't know the ethnic make up of your location, but you have closed your doors to religious Muslims, Jews and Sikhs. I don't agree with your decision. But it's your dojo.
I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.

I doubt there are that many ultrareligious Jews in the MidWest, although not knowing where the school is, I wouldn't say that for certain. Besides, they wouldn't be taking martial arts from anyone outside 'the tribe' - trust me on that one.

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.)

[Feisty Mouse]

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.) Hear, hear.

[CanuckMA]

I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.

I doubt there are that many ultrareligious Jews in the MidWest, although not knowing where the school is, I wouldn't say that for certain. Besides, they wouldn't be taking martial arts from anyone outside 'the tribe' - trust me on that one.

As to losing referrals, that's a risk you take to stand by your principles, isn't it. I'd rather train with someone with principles (and finally do after two missteps.)


Jews are in with Moslems and Sikhs because of the obligation to wear a kipa.

I didn't know where the school was, that's why I asked. I train with a non-Jew. So do many of my friends. And you don't have to be 'ultrareligious' to wear a kipa.

[Patrick Skerry]

[QUOTE=kenpo tiger]I wouldn't exactly put Jews in with the Moslems and Sikhs.[QUOTE]

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.

[Flatlander]

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.I'm sorry, but tell that to them. If you think that you've found a way to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony, by all means educate humankind in whatever way you see fit. However, your statement here will not go very far in helping our friend white belt in finding a reasonable solution to the ethnic difficulty in the dojo.

[Patrick Skerry]

I'm sorry, but tell that to them. If you think that you've found a way to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony, by all means educate humankind in whatever way you see fit. However, your statement here will not go very far in helping our friend white belt in finding a reasonable solution to the ethnic difficulty in the dojo.
The accepted anthropological classification of Muslims and Jews as Sementic was not any attempt to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony; how in the world did you derive 'that' from a simple and objective scientific explanation that both Muslims and Jews have something in common?

[Flatlander]

The accepted anthropological classification of Muslims and Jews as Sementic was not any attempt to heal the globe of ethnic disharmony; how in the world did you derive 'that' from a simple and objective scientific explanation that both Muslims and Jews have something in common?If not, then your 'scientific explanation' was off topic. I generally interpret the underlying meaning of a post in the context of the discussion at hand. My apology for pointing that out.

[Feisty Mouse]

Actually, both Jews and Muslims are part of the semetic group of religions and peoples. They are very close cousins, almost one.

The semetic languages include: Hebrew, Syriac, Arabic, Phoenician, and Aramaic.

Interesting, but...
:-offtopic

People of the same general faith often are the most bitter enemies - considered as heretics rather than just the uneducated, faceless outsiders.

:whip1: Sorry, flatlander, for the redundancy.

[Flatlander]

No probs, Feisty! Sometimes things need to be repeated again more than once.

[white belt]

Don't take this the wrong way but, the latest posts give examples of how I could go from wearing my Instructor's hat, to a Referees hat, to the title of the "Accused" hat, in a civil court of law, with one quick wrong turn. You are all making good and valid points but, I just want to teach a little "chop chop" and not give away my integrity or future paychecks. Please don't post anything to cause the mods to shut this topic down. Even though I have my convictions, I possibly have much to learn yet on the topic.

Thanks.

[Zepp]

Patrick Skerry is right about the strong similarities between semetic religions and cultures. If someone started a thread on the similarities between Judiasm and Islam in the Study, we could probably keep it going for months. But Flatlander is even more right- that really has nothing to do with this particular topic.

From the details white belt has given us, we can see the real issue at hand here isn't so much religious symbolism or apparel, but some people's perception of fairness. Some individuals are so concerned with what is "fair" to them, that they lose sight of what is fair to others.

The dress code in white belt's dojang discriminates against certain people who are religious, but the only practical solution to this would be for him to give himself the power to make arbitrary exceptions. For some instructors in some schools, in other places, that's not a problem. But apparently a potential problem exists at this school because some (most?) of the customers are more worried about what is (supposedly) fair to them, and wouldn't be willing to accept their instructor making an exception to a rule that doesn't include them. Does that about sum it up?

White belt, I don't think your integrity is an issue here. You've got a business to run (on which I assume your livlehood depends), and even though it's a shame to lose those two boys over this, I don't think you should be blamed for trying to protect yourself.

If you do want to make the attempt to explain yourself to the family, and offer a chance to compromise, I don't think you should hesitate to contact the father ASAP.

Good luck with everything.

[kenpo tiger]

And you don't have to be 'ultrareligious' to wear a kipa.Never said that - read my post again.

I don't feel that White Belt's school policy is discriminatory. As was said elsewhere on this thread, as a private institution, White Belt may set policies peculiar to that institution. It's the consumer's choice as to where he or she wants to train.

And I stand by my statement that White Belt should stand by his principles. That is, in my opinion, most important.

Oh yes. My instructor is Roman Catholic. Then again, I'm a secular practitioner of my religion. If I wanted a Jewish instructor, I'd be training in Krav Maga, not American Kenpo.

[TigerWoman]

My instructor had two Iranian/Muslim students who had dual citizenship. These boys/teens would be here nine months out of the year and in Iran the rest. When they originally joined they had a problem bowing to the US Flag. Our instructor had to insist that if they didn't bow then there would be no class. So even though they felt strongly about not bowing, they eventually wanted class more and complied. My instructor is also a converted Christian extremist. he was once a Muslim so it makes it interesting. He doesn't allow Christian religious symbols or Muslim headscarves in the school. But he does allow smaller bandanna types but not if it could be a gang indication.

I would agree that you have to draw the line and not allow any religious symbols. The white uniform is for a reason, to make us all the same and to enable us to train focused and comfortably. I could see that it could open Pandora's box and allow Christian fundamentalists to start sporting patches and proseletizing. TW

[Rob Broad]

I have a question. If the art taught by White Belt is taught in this families homeland, would the headscarf be allowed there? If so why not here?

[white belt]

Good questions. Study up on Egyptian business law and their allowance of non- Muslim religious customs. The answers would be interesting to say the least. It's not one world. I would wager, from my limited studies of said topic, that the scarves, etc. are allowed but, other non-Muslim religious symbolism is at the very least frowned upon. Put "Muslim conversion to Christianity Egypt" in your search engine and see what comes up. This should give a rough idea. Any Egyptian martial artists please jump in.

Thanks.

[Zepp]

I don't know how open the family may still be to compromise, but one idea comes to mind. What if the woman were to wear a wig instead of a headscarf? That wouldn't violate the dress code, and it would keep her head and her natural hair covered.

Just a suggestion.

[TigerWoman]

I have a question. If the art taught by White Belt is taught in this families homeland, would the headscarf be allowed there? If so why not here?

Well, would a Christian be allowed not to wear a headdress say, in Egypt? TW

[white belt]

Wig? I don't know. The purpose of covering the hair is to prevent man from having lurid thoughts. Would a wig not be more than say....fake breasts?

Muslim law dictates, in large part, the day to day activities in predominately Muslim countries. I know that our female military, when in Suadi Arabia, are prohibited from going into populated areas without covering up to a certain degree. This is due to their (Saudis) regulation of (SPELLING?) Shiria or Muslim law. Egypt? Dojangs? Don't know.

I will approach the dad again when the opportunity is right. Should be next Tuesday if they haven't quit. I have to make sure he doesn't see this as my trying to "convert" him or something.

Thanks.

[Rob Broad]

WhiteBelt

You may want to contact the head of your association and see how they normally handle issues like this, and to see if they have schools in Egypt, and how this issue is handled there.

[Feisty Mouse]

Wig? I don't know. The purpose of covering the hair is to prevent man from having lurid thoughts. Would a wig not be more than say....fake breasts?

As far as I understand it, wearing wigs is acceptible for Orthodox Jewish women who wish to cover their hair - as long as their own hair is only revealed to their husbands.

I think, however, that one of the Muslim reasons for women to cover their hair (and bodies) is to not be a temptation to men and incite them to lust. Perhaps then a wig would not be as useful.

[white belt]

Appreciate the thoughts but, business law in the U.S. is my concern. My Association guidelines may be in agreement or not. That will not stop me from protecting against liability. The prior points in question were made largely to illustrate the lack of tolerance structured between different cultures. For the most part I understand there is little to no seperation of church and state in Egypt. Hence my Muslim friends difficulty in comprehending my position other than something of sacriledge rather than a practical business move from a Western legal standpoint. If he allows his kids to still train with me and not imagine I have horns and a tail, that's good enough for me. If he bolts, well, I will wish them well and get on with teaching. If he thinks he has a discrimination case, well, I have set no precedent to support his claims. No special allowances for Christians, Aetheists, etc. No case. Can I be taken to court anyway? Yes. Will I be found guilty? Unless I get Judge Wackjob, no. Even if Wackjob presides, I can appeal. I wont allow some foreign or national governing body to endanger an investment such as my school. Their input is moot to me. They won't replace my business, home, retirement, college for my son, etc. That I can be sure of.

To get back to the point in starting this thread. I will give all students equal, not special treatment. Is there a compromise that makes Muslim dad happy without my settin a precedent?

Thanks.

[TigerWoman]

Sure, have a month of straight sparring or sparring combination practice. She has to wear headgear for safety reason, no exception, with a cage in front all the time. Its so hot though I doubt she will stay in class long... Best of luck on your decision but I think you are making the correct one for my 2c TW

[Mark Weiser]

Just FYI this is a public forum therefore you can use this as evidence in your defense if needed so copy and paste to a cd to give to your attorney. GOOD LUCK!!

[Lisa]

To get back to the point in starting this thread. I will give all students equal, not special treatment. Is there a compromise that makes Muslim dad happy without my settin a precedent?

Thanks.
Every time you change the way you do things to accommodate someone you are setting a precidence and there will always be someone who will use it to their advantage. You will start hearing "Yeah but you let so and so do this, and mine is no different". You would be opening up a whole can of worms.

My question is, has the husband seen an adult class? Does he know how intense these classes can be and how much contact his wife would have with other classmates and men in the school. Is he comfortable putting her at risk to passing out from being over heated? Our head is where a good percentage of our body heat escapes from. Maybe invite him into an adult class to watch, then talk with him afterwards. Ask him if he is going to allow his wife to fully participate in every aspect of your class. If nothing else, you both will know where the other stands.

[KenpoNoChikara]

I think you handled the situation well. bignick's idea for an all-womans class was good too.

[The Boar Man]

White Belt

From the sounds of how you describe your classes I wouldn't allow the head covering. Personally I think you should be protected against a lawsuit since you have set policies and procedures that outline what is allowed and isn't llowed in class. Actually this has been a good topic because this time it's a head covering, however as other people have brought up next time it could be patches, tattoes ect. ect. But from the sounds of it you have set policies that were in place before this came about.

The white uniform places everyone at the same level (not rank wise), with everyone wearing a similar type garment so no one stands out. This would be in contrast to schools that allow you to wear multicolored uniforms (flashy silk, or all colors of the rainbow, camo, ect. ect.).

The gi is a cultureal garment as well, we don't wear them here as normal dress, but we use them for training for this very reason that it makes everyone part of something larger than ourselves (our system). we de-emphasize the individual in our training/class and are part of a group. We learn how to do things one way (the styles way). So I wouldn't be against not allowing the head covering in the class if this is how you conduct your school.

However if your school is one that allows the colored uniforms (I'm not talkiing about Team uniforms/BB clubs per say, rather red bottoms/blue tops mix you know) or patches from who knows where with different weapons ect. ect. than I would allow it.

In my instructors classes at the health center he now teaches at, everyone wears white uniforms (even instructors) no one wears multicolored unifroms or you don't train in his class.

I've got to head to evening church but a final thought. Have you asked the father if his wife might be able to have private lessons with the kids, then I would allow her to wear what is permissible for her (the head covering). Also I wouldn't charge the normal fee for a private/semi private lesson rather factor in what your standard rate for the family would be. You might even get the father to join in along with the kids.

Maybe the father is worried about self defense training for his wife and that is why he asks about classes for her. This could be covered during this time. Maybe in the future if they saw you were trying to work with them something might work out. In time she could work in to sparring class with the other students where she could wear the head gear. One other thing give her the option of wearing the (sparring) head gear, even though we might think it would be to hot, it might be worth it for her to wear it. If this is the case then let her and don't worry about anyone else since it is an item that can be worn in your school.

With respect (sorry for any misspellings)
mark

[MichiganTKD]

I agree 100% with the white uniform analogy. We use them so that noone stands out-all are considered the same. I understand people and prospective students have certain religious and political beliefs. However, martial arts class is not the time or place to express those beliefs. If a female student normally wears the headscarf because Islam says she should, outside class I understand. I may not agree, but I understand. However, in class, if I let her wear a headscarf out of respect for her religion, who's to say a devout Christian student wouldn't want to wear a large crucifix necklace to promote their religion? Their reasoning: You let her wear a headscarf, why can't I wear a crucifix? or a student who wants to wear a political button on their uniform. Where do you draw the line? Before you know it, class policy is dictated by students rather than traditional etiquette or the Instructor's decisions.

[white belt]

I apologize for not addressing the subject of private lessons sooner. With my circumstances it just is not feasable. I have had other opportunities to teach privately but, I just don't have the time to take from my personal life what with a day career and a family.

Thanks for the suggestions.

[CanuckMA]

Boar Man and Michigan,

The difference is that wearing a patch, or a necklace is displaying your religion. The head covering, be it for a Muslim woman, Jewish man or Sikh is not a display, it is a requirement . I wear a kipa while training. Not to advertise my religion, but because I have to.

It is, hopefully, within White Belt's rights to set a standard, but to argue that allowing a head dress would force him to allow patches, etc. is not an argument I'd care to use. Don't use the safety issues either. White Belt, argue about uniformity only. It is easy to defend yourself with the dress code argument. If you argue religious display or safety and it comes down to a lawsuit, you have nothing to stand on.

[white belt]

The headscarf is a display as well as functional attire. It is meant to display conformity to the laws and teachings of Allah. In the privacy of her home, with only her immediate family present, it comes off.

Don't think of me as an antagonist for this next question. Kipas aren't worn swimming or in the shower, correct?

Thanks.

[CanuckMA]

The headscarf is a display as well as functional attire. It is meant to display conformity to the laws and teachings of Allah. In the privacy of her home, with only her immediate family present, it comes off.

Don't think of me as an antagonist for this next question. Kipas aren't worn swimming or in the shower, correct?

Thanks.

The head scarf is a requirement of modesty. One does not need to have the same degree of modesty in ones home.

There are a number of rules regarding where and when a kipa is worn. I take it off while showering and sleeping. I do not wear it while playing hockey or baseball as the helmet and hat fulfill the requirements for covering my head. I wear a swim cap while swimming.

[white belt]

Thank you. I haven't any friends or business contacts that exercise that part of their faith and wear a kipa. The subject, as far as requirements, has never been brought up in conversation around me.

Tuesday is a kids night at the Dojang. May be another opportunity to discuss things with the Muslim father.

Spoke to a fellow martial artist today who is also a human resources director for a large national corporation. He confirmed that my not allowing a prescedent safeguards me from successful litigation. This dovetails with what several others have shared with me who have studied business law for their degrees.

Any other suggestions, please post.

Thanks.

[CanuckMA]

I think you'll be OK. For obvious reasons, I don't agree with your decision, but it's your decision. Just justify it on a dress code level. Don't try to make it something else, especially something you are ant 150% sure you can support.

Good Luck.

[bignick]

well, again...keep us informed of how the situation turns out...i've been watching this thread...and it's brought a great number of issues for schools to consider...

[Flatlander]

Every now and then one of these seriously useful reference threads pops up in here. Good stuff.

[The Boar Man]

Boar Man and Michigan,

The difference is that wearing a patch, or a necklace is displaying your religion. The head covering, be it for a Muslim woman, Jewish man or Sikh is not a display, it is a requirement . I wear a kipa while training. Not to advertise my religion, but because I have to.

It is, hopefully, within White Belt's rights to set a standard, but to argue that allowing a head dress would force him to allow patches, etc. is not an argument I'd care to use. Don't use the safety issues either. White Belt, argue about uniformity only. It is easy to defend yourself with the dress code argument. If you argue religious display or safety and it comes down to a lawsuit, you have nothing to stand on.

CanuckMA

I agree with you about the patches/necklace, however to other students it might seem that you are allowing an religious symbol to be worn. White Belt stated that he had some other students that might try and force the issue (I thought, if I'm mistaken than I apologize).

Anyway I too think the uniform policy is the best defense. But again it depends upon the way the school is structured as far as I'm concerned. If you allow the students to wear necklaces, patches, colored uniforms (different colors in the same classes) ect. ect. than the head covering should be allowed. If not, and you are keeping everyone to the same dress code than it shouldn't (if this is what the owner and instructor decides).

Dave Lowery (columnist for BB mag) wrote about this same type of thing (possibly several years ago) about people of different faiths wanting to not bow to the flag, or to the shrine area of a school (or something). And it was from him that I got the uniformity input and I had to agree with him. However I wasn't brought up that way in my training, but I think the point of view is important and valid, so I brought it up.

With respect
Mark

[The Boar Man]

I apologize for not addressing the subject of private lessons sooner. With my circumstances it just is not feasable. I have had other opportunities to teach privately but, I just don't have the time to take from my personal life what with a day career and a family.

Thanks for the suggestions.

White Belt

I understand about the time issue with day career and family. Just trying to offer suggestions.

I think you should explain to the father about the uniformity issue, and then maybe offer to let his wife wear head gear in class. If she desires your teaching instruction enough than the little discomfort in wear the head gear ought not to run her and her family off. I have practiced before with little kids who had head injuries who in order to train had to wear head gear throughtout the class and they could do it. You could even modify the gear for that matter to possibly make it more comfortable for her.

And it might be too that the woman doesn't want to do this, but the husband wants her to take the class. Or she wants to take the class and her husband doesn't unless you comfrom to his (their) standards. Either way I think you need to try and compromise (and communicate) to show them that you are trying to work with them and are sympathic to their beliefs and needs, but that you have certain standards/rules for your class and you are beholden to them as they are to their beliefs.

with respect
Mark

[pakua]

I've noticed a couple of Muslim women wearing headscarves in our Tai Chi class, but can't say one way or the other about the Kobujutsu class at the same school which is run by the same teacher (Sifu one moment, Sensei the next!)

South Africa tends to have a fairly relaxed attitude to religious and cultural expression nowadays, hardly surprising after centuries of the other extreme. I guess that Sensei/Sifu, himself the victim of apartheid discrimination years ago, would be happy for scarves in the Kobujutsu class unless he was genuinely concerned from the safety p.o.v.