Food to thought. You may have to read between the lines a little, however, I find interesting the references to migration, anthropological, linquistic, and genetic studies, the house of Paekchae, racism, lineage, it's effect on budo etc. It hasn't stopped as of yet. Have to watch that mitochondral dna stuff. Makes it necessary to re-write or bujitsu history a tad.

see thread on "fresh air.", Search for a discussion on Eta and the people Hinin or Hinan. We may be getting closer to who the real people of the Shinobi are. IMOHO, they're still here. The migrations have not ceased.


http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

Japanese Culture


Culture Links
The history of Japan is still poorly understood. Many Japanese still believe in the mythological origins of their people and island, and resist current anthropological, linguistic, and genetic studies which seem to demonstrating successive migrations from the Korean peninsula, taking place over two millennium. Some current research, for instance, suggests that the royal house of Paekchae, a Korean nation that succumbed during civil strife around 600 a.d., may have migrated to Japan, becoming the Japanese ruling family. DNA testing and linguistics seems to confirm a relationship. Similarly, little research is devoted to the displacement by these migrations of the Caucasian-appearing race that was indigenous to Japan, the Ainu, which still exists in northern Japan.

For the past 1500 years, Japan has experienced an extraordinary cultural development, promoted on the one hand by its island isolation, and on the other hand by the necessity of being an island nation with very limited natural resources.

Modern Japan has evolved from a distinctly feudal nation to a modern society in an extraordinarily short period of time. Many ancient traditions are, therefore, within modern memory and interpretation.

Japan's political role in the modern world has been controversial, at best, and represents the cultural extremes of the 20th century, from rampant, agressive militarism to a pacificism that has sometimes been criticized as indifferent.

The study of Japanese Budo, which is popular in the West, often fails to acknowledge the role of Budo in the modern Japanese tragedy leading to World War II, and the distorting and destructive effect that its philosophies can have on a culture and a people as a whole.

The uniqueness of Japanese language, culture, cuisine, religion, and manner of living has been of great interest over the past century, and the study of the various Japanese Budo and Bujitsu styles have permitted Westerners the excitement of actually participating in a direct way, in the study of Japanese culture, while permitting Japanese to engage in a meaningful active study of their own historical traditions and cultural attributes.

This has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It has to do with the population of an island, and how cultural beliefs can cause problems.

Using this migration as something to do with Ninjutsu, would be like saying that Native Americans where ninja also, since they came from upper eastern Asia, and the Chinese had spread Ninjutsu into what would be modern day Mongolia and the former USSR. :)

How's that for a runon sentence?

Using this migration as something to do with Ninjutsu, would be like saying that Native Americans where ninja also, since they came from upper eastern Asia, and the Chinese had spread Ninjutsu into what would be modern day Mongolia and the former USSR. :)
I have it on good authority that the ancestors of the Native Americans used Yoko Aruki to cross the Bering Strait. :D
Note for those playing along at home: note the "new" ninja term above. I'm now taking bets for a pool on how long it take for snowjob to write a post on how it's taught in Dupe Ryu.

Jeff

Interesting concept Sojobow. I would agree it is possible but not likely to have any such effect in reality. However, unlike some people I appreciate your efforts to see beyond what is written in your quest for the truth.

Okay in all fairness, I appreciate the effort you put into this also. What does the above have to do with Ninjutsu though??? Nothing. It is talking about the natural migration of peoples, the isolation and evolution of an island culture. It has nothing to do with the development of a Japanese art. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art. It has elements of skills from different areas, that doens't change where the art was developed. That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?

That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?

I agree with your argument, but English is not a Romance language. It is a Teutonic language akin to the German and Scandinavian languages, though it did become heavily Latinized later due largely to Norman/French influence. Here is an example of what English (or, then, Englisc) looked like before all that, from the poem Beowulf:

Hwæt! We Gar-dena in gear-dagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

Forgeaf þa Beowulfe brand Healfdenes
segen gyldenne sigores to leane;
hroden hildecumbor, helm ond byrnan,
mære maðþumsweord manige gesawon
beforan beorn beran.

Oops! I stand corrected on that. :) Guess I should have been paying a little more attention to what I was saying.

Your all idiots!!! mr sojobow never intended to write anything about ninjutsu! its "NINJISUISM" c'mon people lets try and get it right!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Thankyou althuar you have stated what i have been trying to get across to mr sojobow for quite some time.He seems to have this belief that anyone who migrates from one country to another are all ninja,shinobi,iga no bushi or ninjitsuists or whatever...This as we know is quite incorrect. But hey i may be the one who is wrong!:idunno:

This has nothing to do with Ninjutsu. It has to do with the population of an island, and how cultural beliefs can cause problems.

EXACTLY

I have it on good authority that the ancestors of the Native Americans used Yoko Aruki to cross the Bering Strait. :D
Note for those playing along at home: note the "new" ninja term above. I'm now taking bets for a pool on how long it take for snowjob to write a post on how it's taught in Dupe Ryu. Jeff
A mind is a terrible thing to waste. (And this from a high-ranking Bujinkan?)

Interesting concept Sojobow. I would agree it is possible but not likely to have any such effect in reality. However, unlike some people I appreciate your efforts to see beyond what is written in your quest for the truth.
Good to see you. Still working on that JKD/Interception post. Check back.

Okay in all fairness, I appreciate the effort you put into this also. What does the above have to do with Ninjutsu though??? Nothing. It is talking about the natural migration of peoples, the isolation and evolution of an island culture. It has nothing to do with the development of a Japanese art. Ninjutsu is a Japanese art. I don't believe that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Art. I believe it's essence developed in China around 350 b.c. during the Chinese Warring States Period and then, through migration, spread throughout the Asian continent, into the Korean state and into Japan. It's essence spread outward.

It has elements of skills from different areas, that doens't change where the art was developed. It is still "developing." It continues to evolve. Today, it (Ninjitsu) contains elements of every martial art and every weapon known to man as of TODAY. If, as you say, it has elements of skills from different areas, wouldn't this statement conflict with your "its a Japanese Art?"

That would be like saying Americans, Brits, French, Spanish all speak the same language because it all came from Latin. Pretty asinine idea. While English originated with Latin(Romance language) it is not a Roman creation, is it?Do we (Americans) not have words in our language originating from Brits (Kiosk), French (Boulevard), Spanish (Taco Bell). Some say that all Japanese Martial Arts originated in China except Sumo Wrestling. Maybe not so asinine is it? But, not trying to change your mind on anything. Just my idea of plausible thought. Who said that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Art?

IMO

Your all idiots!!! mr sojobow never intended to write anything about ninjutsu! its "NINJISUISM" c'mon people lets try and get it right!!!!!!! :rolleyes: Wow! Where the heck did that come from? Hope you're well buddy.

Thankyou althuar you have stated what i have been trying to get across to mr sojobow for quite some time.He seems to have this belief that anyone who migrates from one country to another are all ninja,shinobi,iga no bushi or ninjitsuists or whatever...This as we know is quite incorrect. But hey i may be the one who is wrong!:idunno:You're only wrong in that you improperly define my belief(s). I believe that Ninjitsu (or Ninjitsuism) migrated outward (from eastern China) and into other countries and existed independ of other countries during the same period of time. Everyone that migrated during this period were not all martial artist so, your statement cannot be even close to a truth. I am talking about the martial science, not the people. This might get you real angry and confused, but Ninjitsu can exist (due to its evolution) without human beings (but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there).

I believe that Ninjitsu (or Ninjitsuism) migrated outward (from eastern China) and into other countries and existed independ of other countries during the same period of time.
That, right there, says it all. If I believe in trolls, it doens't make them true.

That, right there, says it all. If I believe in trolls, it doens't make them true.

Ah, but they can be empirically observed to exist in the virtual reality of the internet, whether one believes in them or not. :rolleyes:

"but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there" EXACTLY.

Sojobow if thats what you believe then maybe you should kindly shift over to the "chinese forum" and ask them what they know about the "essence" (which could mean anything) of ninjutsu and how many historians have written of chinese Ninja. I have told you my position once but i will tell you again for the sake of old fashioned education.

Many Chinese men, women and children did migrate to Japan to escape the wars and destruction and the horrific going ons in China, Some of these did find themselves in the Iga/Koga regions and did train in ninjutsu and adopted ninpo as their way. Their was a heavy chinese influence with ninjutsu but it was born,bread and grown in the great land that is Japan. Ninjutsu wasnt created before the chinese migrated,rather the opposite.

I think your point of view exists because you feel that "the mind" or the mind of the chinese to be more specific is what created Ninjutsu,and obviously they had their mind before entering Japan.Therefore you believe that Ninjustu in its "essence" was growing before the Japanese and Chinese mingled together,had a few bottles of sake and whipped up ninjutsu!

But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched.I think its great you read so far into the topic and come up with these theories but its important to remember that the Ninja were predominantly Japanese. And they were because Japanese men and women developed Ninpo and trained in ninjutsu over many years in the mud,rain and sun of Japan,under Japanese trees,on Japanese grasses,through Japanese mountains and operated throughout JAPAN!

much respect
-andrew

Finally. Its about time. See, now we can talk and share some questions that have bothered me for quite some time. Good post.

"but that's another whole new discussion for a different forum mode so lets not go there" EXACTLY.Actually, the portion of this quote had to do with my position that Ninjitsu would still exist with or without human beings.

Sojobow if thats what you believe then maybe you should kindly shift over to the "chinese forum" and ask them what they know about the "essence" (which could mean anything) of ninjutsu and how many historians have written of chinese Ninja. I have told you my position once but i will tell you again for the sake of old fashioned education.I did already. And will continue my pursuit of their input and knowledge on this subject. Very interesting so far.

Many Chinese men, women and children did migrate to Japan to escape the wars and destruction and the horrific going ons in China, Some of these did find themselves in the Iga/Koga regions and did train in ninjutsu and adopted ninpo as their way. Their was a heavy chinese influence with ninjutsu but it was born,bread and grown in the great land that is Japan.Interesting concept and helps me a lot. Are you saying that the Yamabushi were teaching their martial concepts to warriors already known as Ninja or practitioners of Ninjutsu? Basically, are you saying Ninjutsu had already been developed in Japan before the yamabushi migrated to Japan? Please elaborate a little.

Ninjutsu wasnt created before the chinese migrated,rather the opposite.Was this a typo?

I think your point of view exists because you feel that "the mind" or the mind of the chinese to be more specific is what created Ninjutsu,and obviously they had their mind before entering Japan.Therefore you believe that Ninjustu in its "essence" was growing before the Japanese and Chinese mingled together,had a few bottles of sake and whipped up ninjutsu!Close, but what I believe I said was that the Chinese developed the concept, philosophy and purpose of what is now called Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. The Chinese did not use the term "Ninjutsu" to define the behavior/science but used the word Kan and a few others. Japan just called the same philosophy "Ninjutsu" after the martial philosophy was actually accepted and then used in Japan. But if you are correct and the philosophy of Ninjutsu already existed before the migration from China, it would actually open a lot more questions than answers.

But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched. much respect
-andrewSo, you're saying that Ninjutsu and Ninpo had already been developed and used in Japan before the period of the Yamabushi, En-no-Goyoja/Shugendo? You're saying Ninjutsu existed in Japan alone (and not in any other country) before 622 A.D. or even before 300 B.C.?
Can you give me a hint as to when (what year(s)) you believe Ninjutsu began in Japan and was there a reason for the creation of Ninjutsu.

But...The Ninja existed before many chinese made it to Japan, I think your view is well thought out but poorly researched.Imuch respect
-andrewOther Poor Research

"Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T’ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor’s court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled.

As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."


History of Ninjutsu
The Historical Ninja
By Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi

Is he wrong also?

No Hatsumi Sensei is not wrong and i would never call him wrong or correct him,who am i to say that such a man is wrong.

I like the way you highlighted certain points trying to make connections with what you say and what Hatsumi says...quite well done.

What Hatsumi says, is obviously correct. However he never once stated that Ninjutsu originated in China. He stated that Chinese men and women had great influence on the development of Ninjutsu and were obviously greatly involved.

"Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices" These are all qualities and skills that the Chinese had to offer,but just because they harboured them in their minds doesnt make them Ninja, The Ninja clans were an affiliation of Chinese and Japanese,a mix,that came to be in JAPAN.

Its good that you dig up extracts like that but i just think Sojobow that you read to deep into somethings and put too much of a spin on simple quotes. I dont believe that Hatsumi's scrolls state that the Ninja families were born in China and migrated to Japan where they spread their knowledge and skills nor do i think that is the way Hatsumi wants us to read that passage.

Your theories and opinions and so forth are all well and good Sojobow but when you state it as historical fact (not referring to Hatsumi's book) or even if you dont state it,it sometimes comes across that way and can easily 'urk' people and distress them. Not because they are easily annoyed but because they are tired of reading rambling and are hear to learn proper history.

I will commend you on your efforts to promote civil discussion,and keep this from getting personal and rather a trade of ideas,good job on that.

much respect
-andrew

I dont believe that Hatsumi's scrolls state that the Ninja families were born in China and migrated to Japan where they spread their knowledge and skills nor do i think that is the way Hatsumi wants us to read that passage. Neither did I. Don't know where the "ninja families were born in China..." came from either.

it sometimes comes across that way and can easily 'urk' people and distress them. Not because they are easily annoyed but because they are tired of reading rambling and are hear to learn proper history.This may be what you HOPE, but, since HUNDREDS of people are reading these post, don't think they'd keep reading if this is of no interest or considered rambling as you state. Least I hope not. Maybe it's because most posters just can't write a post without the name "sojobow" or "snowjob" somewhere within. I'm not as important as the subjects - I hope.

Interested in your explanation of what this "gifts to their newly-found followers" is. I read and interpret the "gift" as what constitutes the Ninja. I use the term "what constitutes the Ninja" because I'm interested to know the difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am.

I will commend you on your efforts to promote civil discussion,and keep this from getting personal and rather a trade of ideas,good job on that. much respect-andrewThanx

"difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am."

No offence intended, but i hope you had a few dinks down when you wrote most of that...A "Ninja" in my opinion is one who practices,ninjutsu and follows Ninpo as their "way". Ninjutsu is the yang or yo aspect to their 'way' it is the techniques and the responses. Ninpo being the yin or in aspect being the phylosophical and spiritual side which also flows into ninjutsu to assist perfection and understanding of techniques. A 'ninja' or 'shinobi' or iga/koga no bushi or whatever is the warrior figure of the art, the individual who encapsulates all that is Ninpo/Ninjutsu.

Of course a Samurai would get a little ticked off if you called him a ninja, its like calling a nazi a Jew (well thats little extreme) but it made the point. History has recorded instances where some Samurai have turned ninja and vice versa,also that samurai have hired ninja for various reasons. But i'm not sure about Samurai practising ninjutsu, although it depends what you refer to when you say ninjutsu. I think it would be a slight violation if a samurai adopted ninpo and the ninja way whilst under the bushido code of honour.Just my opinion.

much respect
-andrew

"difference between "Ninja" and "Ninjutsu." Reading recently that to call a Samurai a "Ninja" would cause you to lose your head as the Samurai considered it an insult to be called "Ninja." But, the Samurai, supposedly, practiced Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu. Thus, it seems that one could practice "Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu" without being a "Ninja." More of my "rambling" don't you think. But, try and figure that one out. I am."It is something to think about. Still reading the article so it may make some sense upon finishing it. It infers a very interesting difference between an actual Ninja and that of someone "studying or practicing dojo" Ninjutsu / Ninjitsu.

No offence intended, but i hope you had a few dinks down when you wrote most of that...A "Ninja" in my opinion is one who practices,ninjutsu and follows Ninpo as their "way". Ninjutsu is the yang or yo aspect to their 'way' it is the techniques and the responses. Ninpo being the yin or in aspect being the phylosophical and spiritual side which also flows into ninjutsu to assist perfection and understanding of techniques. A 'ninja' or 'shinobi' or iga/koga no bushi or whatever is the warrior figure of the art, the individual who encapsulates all that is Ninpo/Ninjutsu.Doesn't seem like something I would have written with or without a few dinks - or is it 'drinks?' Thanks for the definition summary. The more I read about this relationship between Ninja, shinobi, Ninjutsu, Ninho, history, the more I'm starting to believe that one can be Ninja without practicing Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu. We can practice in our schools for years, have the highest ranks, a credible number of students, all kinds of certifications authorizing us to teach, have successfull seminars on the subject and on, and on. But, having and practicing all of this does not make us Ninja. The Spirit, Mind and Body is only the beginning. Being Ninja is more important.

Of course a Samurai would get a little ticked off if you called him a ninja, its like calling a nazi a Jew (well thats little extreme) but it made the point. History has recorded instances where some Samurai have turned ninja and vice versa,also that samurai have hired ninja for various reasons. But i'm not sure about Samurai practising ninjutsu, although it depends what you refer to when you say ninjutsu. I think it would be a slight violation if a samurai adopted ninpo and the ninja way whilst under the bushido code of honour.Just my opinion. much respect -andrewThere are a number of sections defining the Ninja that a Samurai could perform without violation of the bushido code. Even in today's era of Neo-ninjitsu, there are certain individuals training in this martial art that are having problems with their own religion while training in the art. Ninja found that they could practice different religions and / or "codes" simultaneously.

"drinks" is correct...

Ah, but they can be empirically observed to exist in the virtual reality of the internet, whether one believes in them or not. :rolleyes:
That was sarcastically prolific. :flushed:

Talking about Korean influences. Wish I'd have read this thread when everyone kept posting how unJapanese this this subject is:

Start on about 3 or 4. Entire thread is good too. Korean Ninja, Chinese Ninja? Even found an article talking of Russian Ninja. Ooooooops.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=270371#post270371

Ummmm, that does absolutely nothing to help your rants. The Russian was a student of the Bujinkan. Doesn't make your assinine comment about ninjutsu traveling through Russia accurate. And the Korean link is some knucklehead saying the "Sulsa" are ninja and guessing about history. Didn't help you a bit. Wanna try again???? Stretch a little further. C'mon.

Ummmm, that does absolutely nothing to help your rants. The Russian was a student of the Bujinkan. So now, you can see through my computer into my office and know that the article I am reading, authored by a Russian dealing with Ninja in Russian territory during the periods we're discussing, is discussing Russian History. You can see through my computer screen? I didn't notice anyone mentioning Russian. Must have missed that post. You mean someone else made such a statement?

Doesn't make your assinine comment about ninjutsu traveling through Russia accurate. And the Korean link is some knucklehead saying the "Sulsa" are ninja and guessing about history. Didn't help you a bit. Wanna try again???? Stretch a little further. C'mon.
Nope. Said all I intended to. Can't find any truthfull answers here. Only post like your own. Why the inferiority complex you're displaying is beyond me. Someone challenges your status quo and you attack back with "rants, assinine comment, knucklehead, guessing." ADD SOMETHING

Talking about Korean influences. Wish I'd have read this thread when everyone kept posting how unJapanese this this subject is:

Start on about 3 or 4. Entire thread is good too. Korean Ninja, Chinese Ninja? Even found an article talking of Russian Ninja. Ooooooops.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=270371#post270371 What did this add??? It added conjecture. It didn't add anything to your argument.

Please, if you have found an article dealing with ninjutsu in Russia, share. I'm sure all of us would like to read it. However, your Russian comment above pops up after you read the linked thread and it has a quote in there from someone with a Russian name. You act as if the ramblings of someone who is applying his own opinions as fact somehow vindicate what you have been saying all along. Doesn't help your case at all.

What did this add??? It added conjecture. It didn't add anything to your argument.

Please, if you have found an article dealing with ninjutsu in Russia, share. I'm sure all of us would like to read it. However, your Russian comment above pops up after you read the linked thread and it has a quote in there from someone with a Russian name. You act as if the ramblings of someone who is applying his own opinions as fact somehow vindicate what you have been saying all along. Doesn't help your case at all.
a) I didn't present an arguement. I only presented a possibility and asked a question;
b) Have no idea about the poster with Russian name and its relationship to what you're trying to prove;
c) what case?

Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits.

Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits.
What would help "your case" is a daily regimen of Ridalin.
Just because something is on the internet does not make it true. Just the other day I was reading the rantings of this guy who called the F-16 a "ninja weapon." Oh wait, nevermind...

Jeff

What would help "your case" is a daily regimen of Ridalin.
Just because something is on the internet does not make it true. Just the other day I was reading the rantings of this guy who called the F-16 a "ninja weapon." Oh wait, nevermind...JeffOk, I'll try this one more time.
"Originally Posted by sojobow
Actually, what helps "my case" is when I ask a question to a search engine and get 25,000 hits."

Note the ".....when I ask a question......" True or false or no such animal, I get an answer, usually related to the question I asked. And sure an F-XX or B-XX can easily be classified as a "Ninja Weapon." I'd like to meet the guy who said this. Seems he has vision and actually knows what being "Ninja" might be in today's teachings of Ninjitsuism. May have something to do with Sun Wu's thirty-something Attacks by stratagem.

What's Ridalin? Can you send me some?

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?"

Not making a personal attack on you, I just dont think (in my view) that you answered him well enough, do you? You seem to cop a lot of flack about your lack of references and you may feel that you are continiously attacked at the throat. And i guess that if you are asked for references then its only fair that others do the same.

The difference is however, that alot of what you say is "unheard of" and doesnt go down too well with what other people believe. And this is by no means 'your problem'. But when people ask for references either out of interest of your comments or to put you on the spot to see if you can back yourself up its a good idea to do so.

It just helps the credibility of what you say, because untill you have a little bit of backing behind your statements then very few will bother to read your posts properly, they just skim through for cheap laughs. So i ask to get some references coming so we can learn more from your point of view and understand why you believe what you do and then you might find that people will be a lot more productive and this thread will be alot more educational for all of us. Can you do that?

much respect
-andrew

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?" -andrew
You're kind of new here when it comes to sojobow. sojobow has gone through over 2,000 post with these Bujinkans/e-budo brotherhood and sojobow doesn't wish to make it another 2,000. In these more than 2,000 posts, sojobow was the only one presenting references. sojobow asked a simple question of them from the very beginning: "what will you do with the information I present to you." My question was completely disregarded. Then, bless their hearts, they decided that they would only accept a reference from ONE OF THEIR OWN SOURCES. So, sojobow started quoting Hatsumi Sensei. Yep, you got it. Unacceptable source to them. So, long story made short, they really don't want sojobow's sources, will not accept them even when its their own system's founder and, worst of all, when they do "check my sources" and find that the source is Sun Tzu, Mushashi, Draeger, Koryu.com, the truth, etc., they NEVER come back and acknowledge the information as being correct. So, you will excuse sojobow for asking them for THEIR sources (which they never present). It's their turn.

You might also have noticed that they usually ask me to give them a source of information regarding some point that I never expressed to begin with. They re-write/re-invent or re-interpret my statement, then ask me to provide them with a source, not for my own statement, by a source for THEIR statement. Their technique usually works real well because they know I'm not going to waste my time proving something that I never said to begin with. Then someone like you comes alone and makes it look as though I'm the one avoiding the question (which usually will get changed when answered).

Its their turn. "sojobow" mentioned to assist those not knowing how to spell.

In these more than 2,000 posts, sojobow was the only one presenting references.
In a word, ********. You posted a list of titles that are common martial arts books, and had nothing to do with your diatribe. Try again.

Edit: the word masked by the profanity filter has to do with bovine excretory functions...

Jeff

And sure an F-XX or B-XX can easily be classified as a "Ninja Weapon." I'd like to meet the guy who said this.
My bad, it was an F-17. Sojobow, meet sojobow (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=267270&postcount=14) ...

Jeff

It is a common weakness when defending yourself to counter a question with another question. ie. Kreth asks for references so you say "where are yours?" Now that I think on it a bit more, here's a recent example - Hope this will help you understand post #35 even better since you are the example.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16560&page=3&pp=15

8/17 Post 41. Genin says in part. ...You have said very little on martialtalk and other forums that i agree with,almost nothing. Not only because it challenges my own knowledge but because you have not once 'elaborated' on your comments or the "history" that you have told me....." and ...."You have NOT ONCE given me any answers to any of my questions nor have you elaborated on your comments (which i also asked for). To me this is quite disrespectful as you blatantly ignore me and then act as though you have nothing against me and respect me and my knowledge....

The very next post was useless but I responed in Post #43 ending with ".......Now that I think on it, if I get the time, I'll go over each and every one of your posts and prove to you that I've answered your questions. I'll definately look forward to your response to that......"

Note Kreth's input in #44..."sojobow was given the nickname Snowjob to reflect his constant dodging of questions amid claims that he's answered all of them...."

Note Kreth's input in #50 ...."Don't hold your breath..."

Note your response to Kreth in #51 ".....Maybe the morning will awake Sojobow and bring some answers...maybe not....."

Note sojobow's response in #52... an itemized list of every question you've asked me (with post number), an itemized list of every agreeement you've noted in 40 posts and a complete answeras promised in my post #43.

Well, needless to say, to save the face of ignorance and non-humility, Kreth doesn't like my list of 4 or 5 books mentioned in one section of one post out of 40. Says I didn't include the page number, Ibids, DOB, colors o f books or some other nonsense.

Then, I read the following in your post #55....."but Sojobow if you feel you have answered my questions then that is fine, I wasnt too serious about getting answers from you as they are obviously beyond your research.I am not your enemy either,just dont like reading rubbish."

So, see what I mean. I answer,re-answer, re-re-answer and what do I get: "...Genin - I wasnt too serious about getting answers....[/b] so, what happened to "Damn, sojobow did answer all of my question or Damn, sojobow did say quite a number of statements that I posted that I agreed with him" or damn, sojobow took all his time, went back over every previous q&a (40 post) to answer." So, I'll reward his honesty and effort (since I am unable to say that I was wrong and sojobow was correct) by just saying "I wasn't too serious."

In a word, ********. You posted a list of titles that are common martial arts books, and had nothing to do with your diatribe. Try again.

Edit: the word masked by the profanity filter has to do with bovine excretory functions...

JeffActually, my list of titles far exceeds your input to the subject of the threads. You, and your student, should just move on and take your bovine excretions with you. by all means, stay if you have knowledge of the implications of china and Korea on Japanese martial arts. If not, well.....

Hope your bovine excretions subside soon.

Well, needless to say, to save the face of ignorance and non-humility, Kreth doesn't like my list of 4 or 5 books mentioned in one section of one post out of 40. Says I didn't include the page number, Ibids, DOB, colors o f books or some other nonsense.
Any moron can list a bunch a martial arts titles with page numbers and say they support his argument. The general public won't bother to read through the entire book in question. Again, nice try.

Jeff

Any moron can list a bunch a martial arts titles with page numbers and say they support his argument. The general public won't bother to read through the entire book in question. Again, nice try.Jeff
You're right about the "Again, nice try" because this is about the 5th or 6th time you've brought up the same post posted about 80 posts ago. Get over it. Incidentally, in one of the book references, I did cite the page number. Did you at least look up that particular citation? Did it answer the question? But, we expect you to complain a 7th time about the same post. Redundancy is cool with me. Working on my second red dot. Anyway, since you can't answer the last question, try this one. Tell us what you think it inferrs.

Thread subject Post #1.

Food for thought. You may have to read between the lines a little, however, I find interesting the references to migration, anthropological, linquistic, and genetic studies, the house of Paekchae, racism, lineage, it's effect on budo etc. It hasn't stopped as of yet. Have to watch that mitochondral dna stuff. Makes it necessary to re-write or bujitsu history a tad.

see thread on "fresh air.", Search for a discussion on Eta and the people Hinin or Hinan. We may be getting closer to who the real people of the Shinobi are. IMOHO, they're still here. The migrations have not ceased.


http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

Japanese Culture


Culture Links
The history of Japan is still poorly understood. Many Japanese still believe in the mythological origins of their people and island, and resist current anthropological, linguistic, and genetic studies which seem to demonstrating successive migrations from the Korean peninsula, taking place over two millennium. Some current research, for instance, suggests that the royal house of Paekchae, a Korean nation that succumbed during civil strife around 600 a.d., may have migrated to Japan, becoming the Japanese ruling family. DNA testing and linguistics seems to confirm a relationship. Similarly, little research is devoted to the displacement by these migrations of the Caucasian-appearing race that was indigenous to Japan, the Ainu, which still exists in northern Japan.

Since we know that the Sulsa were involved with the expatriation of the House of Paekchae, and according to traditional japanese history, Ninja did not exist at this time in Japan, what do you think happened to the Kwarang Sulsa coming to Japan in 600 a.d.? Why, according to traditional ninjutsu history in Japan, did it take another 800 to 1000 years for Ninjutsu to develope when it had already been developed in Korea 800 years prior and China 1,700 years prior. To clarify my question, consider that the word Ninjutsu only refers to the philosophy and the profession now (in 2004 FY) identified with the what is commonly know as the profession of the Ninja.

Keep the Discussion polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Operations Admin

Keep the Discussion polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Operations Admin
You're right. I'll try.

Since we know that the Sulsa were involved with the expatriation of the House of Paekchae, and according to traditional japanese history, Ninja did not exist at this time in Japan, what do you think happened to the Kwarang Sulsa coming to Japan in 600 a.d.?
YOu got this from another knucklehead on here that can't quote sources. This is nothing more than guesses. Nowhere in the link above did it say anything about Sulsa. You assume this because of someone else trying to rewrite history for the benefit of himself and his art. Besides, the link has nothing at all to do with Ninjutsu. Other than the fact that it is about Japan. I guess if I link an article about Tokyo Disneyland, we can assume that Walt was a Ninja.

:bs: :ninja:

YOu got this from another knucklehead on here that can't quote sources. This is nothing more than guesses. Nowhere in the link above did it say anything about Sulsa. You assume this because of someone else trying to rewrite history for the benefit of himself and his art. Besides, the link has nothing at all to do with Ninjutsu. Other than the fact that it is about Japan. I guess if I link an article about Tokyo Disneyland, we can assume that Walt was a Ninja.
For the 4th time, here is my source: http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

I don't know the "knucklehead" or the "link" you are referring to but I would like to read it and the "knucklehead's" post. Please show me the link. You also make assumptions that I wouldn't make. Again, we've taken this "history" far enough and its time for a change of subjects. But, if "Sulsa" was the name of the Korean Profession likened to Japan's "Ninja," it wouldn't be to large a step in logic. There are other sources "outside" of Japan that researched their dissertations while "in Japan." I, at least, listen. It's all interesting to say the least. I don't think anyone in Japan really cares what sojobow thinks about their history so lets just have fun discussing opinions.

I'd like also to hear/read your opinion of the culturejap.htm article. Is it plausible or not?

I'd like also to hear/read your opinion of the culturejap.htm article. Is it plausible or not?
Given that the author of the article, much like you, gives no information as to his sources, I'd hardly call this credible. Again, just because something is written on the Internet, does not make it true.

Jeff

I guess if I link an article about Tokyo Disneyland, we can assume that Walt was a Ninja.You mean he's not!?!?! I've been fooled all these years!!!

Given that the author of the article, much like you, gives no information as to his sources, I'd hardly call this credible. Again, just because something is written on the Internet, does not make it true.

Jeffnot that i'm defending anyone. in fact my internet went down so i'm barely catching up on my reading on this site...

just because something is written in a book doesn't make it true either.
peace

For the 4th time, here is my source: http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

sojobow... do you ever get tired of going to battle? you know they hate your sensei. that is their biggest issue. then the second on the their list is your opinions on ninjutsu that doesn't match up with history books. no ninja ever used an f-17. anyway like i said before present a picture of your sensei's training. then present actual proof of your take on history. (i.e. book, page #, paragraph...etc.) and you win.
if you can't then... if i were you i wouldn't say to much more on this topic.
peace

Given that the author of the article, much like you, gives no information as to his sources, I'd hardly call this credible. Again, just because something is written on the Internet, does not make it true.
Jeff
You don't need a source to give us your thoughts on the information presented in the article.

sojobow... do you ever get tired of going to battle? you know they hate your sensei. that is their biggest issue. then the second on the their list is your opinions on ninjutsu that doesn't match up with history books. no ninja ever used an f-17. anyway like i said before present a picture of your sensei's training. then present actual proof of your take on history. (i.e. book, page #, paragraph...etc.) and you win.
if you can't then... if i were you i wouldn't say to much more on this topic.
peace
I hear you. I've posted information that "they have agreed with" but then ask me for a source. If they agree with me, what's the reason for a source? You have stated correctly the major problem they have. The secondary problem is that they have no definition of what is 1)Ninja, and 2)Ninjutsu and 3)Ninjitsu - at least one that we can all agree with. Another problem is that I don't have to justify my opinions based upon the Ryu-ha I practice. Thus, I can look at the Ninja for what it is and not what I am told it is.

Here's an example: The first sword used by both the Ninja of Japan and the Samurai of Japan was a straight, double-edged sword "made in China" and reproduced in Japan called a "Ken" or something sounding the same. The Katana evolved after the Ken. The Ninja-To is real, not from the movies, but from the weapon collection of the Ninja which actually used more than one "sword" as also the Samurai used more than one "sword." Now, I'll be asked for a source (after I'm called a few names). They'l say "no it wasn't" but they won't tell us what was - with, or without a source. I say it was the straight "Ken," now watch what happens.

no ninja ever used an f-17.
Noticed this reference a number of times now. Want to see a pure depiction of Ninja? Watch the first 7 Minutes of Paramount Pictures "The Hunter." I have a different definition of Ninja than you. To you, no Ninja ever used an F-17 or an F-1-11. I say, the Ninja invented both. But, it's just semantics. Food for thought. No questions please - just answers.

Another problem is that I don't have to justify my opinions based upon the Ryu-ha I practice. Thus, I can look at the Ninja for what it is and not what I am told it is.

watch what happens.i will agree with you on that. people here do go harder on you then they would any other because of your history. now... you should be able to post your opinion on any given topic because you do claim to practice a "ninja" style. i have never been one for defending a certificate/lineage/belt... just want to defend my life and the lives of my loved ones.

you have a lot of fire in you and you speak as though you know it all, and that is another issue people have with you. for me...? it doesn't affect me either way. you should just state that those are your opinions and not be so "matter of fact" about everything you say.

example the sword topic you just said: although it should be in a different thread is your opinion off of whatever study you have done. you should start by saying..."from what i have read", "in my opinion", "from what mr. dux has taught me", etc. not this is how it is and thats all. just be open to the fact that you might not be correct in everything, and take some advise instead of trying to give it on every topic.
peace

you have a lot of fire in you and you speak as though you know it all, and that is another issue people have with you. for me...? it doesn't affect me either way. you should just state that those are your opinions and not be so "matter of fact" about everything you say.
And there you have it. Add to that, referring to himself in the 3rd person. I could care less what he studies. Those who aren't fooling themselves know Dux for what he is, hell, even the casual CourtTV viewer does... It just irks me when sojobow posts his fantasies as fact.

Jeff

And there you have it. Add to that, referring to himself in the 3rd person. I could care less what he studies. Those who aren't fooling themselves know Dux for what he is, hell, even the casual CourtTV viewer does... It just irks me when sojobow posts his fantasies as fact. JeffThese threads do have a subject. None of which include Hanshi or myself. Try discussing the subject(s). Your opinions on matters not pertaining to the subject of the threads is very irritating and somewhat adolescent. All was asked is an opinion on an article posted on the web. Seems we all post our fantasids as fact. If I'm incorrect, show me where. If you can't show where I am wrong, other than your opinion, I must be right or you are just unable to show me where I am incorrect.

If I'm incorrect, show me where. If you can't show where I am wrong, other than your opinion, I must be right or you are just unable to show me where I am incorrect.
It's been done, several times, by myself and others. You just refuse to acknowledge it.

Jeff

It's been done, several times, by myself and others. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Jeff
Sure I have agreed with you more than once. You just refuse to acknowledge it. Anyway, still evading the thread subjects are we? Try discussing something else other than sojobow.

example the sword topic you just said: although it should be in a different thread is your opinion off of whatever study you have done. you should start by saying..."from what i have read", "in my opinion", "from what mr. dux has taught me", etc. not this is how it is and thats all. just be open to the fact that you might not be correct in everything, and take some advise instead of trying to give it on every topic. peace
Stand for something (which I believe in). If you're confortable with what you have learned, why be affraid to state it as fact. It's not written in concrete. Here is a novel idea. Go to swordforum.com and ask anyone. Try asking Dale Seago about the ancient swords. He's a Bujinkan and traditionalist so the Don's will not challenge him on the subject. I'm confortable that the swordsmen in that forum will answer your question if you're concerned with its Ken references.

Oh dear buddha....

Sojobow, you aren't still trying to pass off that Hollywood version of the ninja-to as a "real historical weapon" again, are you??

Geez... next thing you know, we'll all be reminded on how the jizamurai are members of the hinin caste. *chuckle, chuckle*

Oh dear buddha....

Sojobow, you aren't still trying to pass off that Hollywood version of the ninja-to as a "real historical weapon" again, are you?? Geez... next thing you know, we'll all be reminded on how the jizamurai are members of the hinin caste. *chuckle, chuckle*No. But I do wish we knew where the first "Hollywood version" came from. I'd like to know where the producer or researcher got his information. Something like the research done for The Last Samurai's Ninja Attack. Where/whom did they base there depiction on. My "real historical weapon" has to do with "a straight-blade" sword (Jian etc). Also, what I'd like to know is, in a real-life fight today, would a Kan use a "Hollywood Version Ninja-To" if one was just leaning against the wall when the bad guys jumped him? Or, would he say something like: "I (an X-Kan) wouldn't be caught dead with a fake Hollywood weapon if my life depended on it? Just a thought in this modern world.

And yes, I do own one. It sticks people in the eye real well. Darn thing works.

What would help "your case" is a daily regimen of Ridalin.
Just because something is on the internet does not make it true. Just the other day I was reading the rantings of this guy who called the F-16 a "ninja weapon." Oh wait, nevermind...Jeff
Hey. Yo Jeff. Check this out. Enson found a website in another thread regarding Andrew's school. One of the posters in the other forum made the following statement which had me OTFRIP (laughing) :

"Light_Wings says in part:........B.) Even if so, Hatsumi (I think it was him) once said a Ninja most know everything. He used the examples of firing a gun or fly an airplane because riding a horse and wielding a sword would not help a Ninja to complete a mission in this day in time, so should he have one for some reason..............."

Was it I or he you were referring to. Oh wait, nevermind:) I know, it was me.:idunno:

Heretic,

The ninjato is a common weapon of the ninja in hollywood, and yes hollywood did make the sword famous...and fictional, regarding association with ninjutsu. But then why does Hayes make reference to the Ninjato in his books? Why does the Ninjato have a place in the Iga Ninja museum? Are you saying that a straight bladed katana never existed? The chokuto design?

And for those of us that know, The straight bladed katana definately did exist. That is fact. Who's to say the Ninja never used it? I'm not saying i agree with Hollywood by any means i'm just saying that given the evidence who are you to say that the Ninja never used a straight sword? There are many who believe that as far as "ninja warriors" go, the movies and video games are to blame for the Ninja/Ninjato stereotype, But I personally wouldnt say that is entirely true. I believe the Ninja more commonly used shinogi zukuri "standard curved" katanas,it makes alot more sense, practicality, inconspicuous etc. But i'm sure at some point they would have used the Chokuto design.

So i think due to the lack of "concrete evidence" for and against we shouldn't be saying "purely hollywood" was responsible. Even the Bujinkan use the Ninjato...I just think we need to be a little more open to possibility.

thanks
-andrew

And for those of us that know, The straight bladed katana definately did exist.

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

Let me ask you this, did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war? (PS- both the French and the Indians lost.)

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.

Oh yeah, there were people living in Iga 500 years before beggining of what we call the age of wars in Japan. But they can not be called ninja anymore than the guys running around in Bronze age England with pointy objects can be likened to the knights that we know of from after Billy did his number at Hastings.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style. The straight blade was kept only by members of the Imperial court much like the royalty of England is proceeeded by a ceremonial mace even today.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago. Some of the oldest buildings in Japan's first permanent capital at Nara are made without a single metal nail. So, the idea that someone who was so without resources that they could not get a new sword, or melt the old one down into something more usefull could somehow keep a blade intact for a longer time than there have been white men living in your country is just plain silly.

And as for you appeal to the authority of Stephen Hayes, have you read his fifth book from Ohara Publications? In it he clearly states that the idea of the ninja using a straight bladed sword is a myth. It is only in his early books that he says they used one. Why? Well, humans make mistakes. Hayes is human, thus Hayes makes mistakes. So his early works may have said that the ninja used swords based on a misunderstanding on his part from a TV series popular at the time he was living here. Maybe not. The important thing from your standpoint is that he changed his opinion when he got more knowledgeable.

When you get to Japanese sources on the sword, you can not find one that says that the ninja used a straight bladed sword. Hatsumi does not say it, and neither does other sources such as Okuse, Nawa, Nakajima, etc. We have gone over this time and time again. The ninja did not use straight bladed swords. Show me a Japanese source that says they did.

did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war? Huah!

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago. But what about the "chokuto" style? I've heard that some ryu ha, like the Shinkage ryu still use them. I was under the impression that people who were not Samurai and not allowed to carry swords were still allowed to carry a single chokuto to defend themselves, and that this was the prefered "sidearm" of travelers. Not saying it was being exclusively used by Ninja, but that something similiar to it possibley did exist.

So i think due to the lack of "concrete evidence" for and against we shouldn't be saying "purely hollywood" was responsible. Even the Bujinkan use the Ninjato...I just think we need to be a little more open to possibility.

thanks
-andrewi think i will agree with that.

i think "the earth is flat" theory just is a bit shadey. i imagine they could have used the ninjato (or its likeness) as with more hanbo techniques. a bo with a blade maybe? who knows for sure?:idunno: all history are a bunch of stories and documents passed down. no one will know for sure what went on 500 years ago because we didn't live in that time. its natural to assume certain events happened but not even hatsumi is that old to know for sure. ;)
OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now. that was funny!

peace

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.Great

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.I drew a horizontal timeline about 9 inches long with a mark every inch along the line to indicate 100 years. Started on the left with The Yamabushi Karuma Hachi Ryu Kooga Period/Heian Period (800 a.d). All the way to the extreme left end (ooops, I mean extreme right end), I put the Yakuza/Meij Restoration (1860 a.d.). I think the "Ninja" could be found all along this timeline. But, Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu could be found starting somewhere near the right-end. The "Ninja" consistantly evolved all along the timeline but the Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu didn't come until hundreds of years later. Like to know where you place these two events.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Could be true too. I also heard that the curve in the Katana happened by forging accident once developed in China and learned by the Japanese. The heating-then-quenching process (or however they do it) resulted in the blade having a curve. Japanese said: "hey, this crooked curved thingy works well. Its like having a Jian and a broadsword all in one. See! you can stabb/thrust and even swing it. Lets use it." Just what I heard so don't hurt us now.

I'd judge this a 10-9 round for Genin Andrew. Close round one, but I think Genin wins.

No. But I do wish we knew where the first "Hollywood version" came from. I'd like to know where the producer or researcher got his information. Something like the research done for The Last Samurai's Ninja Attack. Where/whom did they base there depiction on.

Hayes gave his speculations on where the first "straight-bladed ninja-to" came from in Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warriors. He seems to think it was a novelty/exaggeration of the Kabuki theater.

Then again, he could have been the one that come up with the idea.

My "real historical weapon" has to do with "a straight-blade" sword (Jian etc).

Now why would practitioners of a Japanese koryu know anything about swords used used in China and Tibet??

Also, what I'd like to know is, in a real-life fight today, would a Kan use a "Hollywood Version Ninja-To" if one was just leaning against the wall when the bad guys jumped him? Or, would he say something like: "I (an X-Kan) wouldn't be caught dead with a fake Hollywood weapon if my life depended on it? Just a thought in this modern world.

My, my... what a lovely little diversion. What, praytell, does that querry have to do with the supposed historicity of the weapon in question??

The ninjato is a common weapon of the ninja in hollywood, and yes hollywood did make the sword famous...and fictional, regarding association with ninjutsu. But then why does Hayes make reference to the Ninjato in his books?

Could be because he's not perfect.

Why does the Ninjato have a place in the Iga Ninja museum?

Could be because they're not perfect. Also, as Don pointed out in another thread, the "straight" ninja-to in the museum are pre-manufactured props that you could buy in any martial arts store in your city.

Are you saying that a straight bladed katana never existed?

A straight-bladed katana?? Nope. A katana, by definition, is not straight-bladed.

The chokuto design?

A choku-to is not a katana. It was also used centuries before the Iga-shu and Koga-shu popped up on the historical record, and not during.

I drew a horizontal timeline about 9 inches long with a mark every inch along the line to indicate 100 years. Started on the left with The Yamabushi Karuma Hachi Ryu Kooga Period/Heian Period (800 a.d). All the way to the extreme left end (ooops, I mean extreme right end), I put the Yakuza/Meij Restoration (1860 a.d.). I think the "Ninja" could be found all along this timeline. But, Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu could be found starting somewhere near the right-end. The "Ninja" consistantly evolved all along the timeline but the Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Ryu didn't come until hundreds of years later. Like to know where you place these two events.

You can place the "ninja" wherever you want on this timeline --- doesn't change the fact that no one made a peep about the Iga-shu or Koga-shu until the mid-1400's. At the earliest.

A little helpful reminder: oral "history" is not documented fact.

Laterz.

You can place the "ninja" wherever you want on this timeline --- doesn't change the fact that no one made a peep about the Iga-shu or Koga-shu until the mid-1400's. At the earliest. A little helpful reminder: oral "history" is not documented fact. Laterz.
Well now, don't bet you lunch money on this little nugget. Why not just say "no one {that I agree with} made a peep...." Or something to that effect. But, none of us are perfect. I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far. Got this from a source you've used before too. So, if they "organized" around 950 a.d., they surely had to exist before then as ninja. Kooga is a family name drawn from somewhere!

I'd judge this a 10-9 round for Genin Andrew. Close round one, but I think Genin wins.
I'd have to judge it 9-1 in favor of Don Roley. The only mistake Don Roley has made is wasting his time trying to explain reality to a couple of attention deprived space cadets. Well, Genin and Sojobow have won the attention their parents didn't give them, but at the expense of looking like fools in a public forum.

Now I'm hurt. Wonder if I got two more points with this one. I'll look and see and tell you later. Oh, gee, thanks, at least you gave Genin and I one point. Thanx. Hope your day gets better. Feel Better!

I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far.

Sigh.....

Here we go again. I will now state that I have never run across that reference in any Japanese source AFAIK and ask Sojobow for his sources. He will respond with evasions, insults and disruptive behavior.

Some of us will try to bring the subject back to trying to determine whether or not these guys actually existed as far as anyone in Japan knew while Sojobow does his best to tear down the forum. I can already guess some of the evasions and insults he will use.

Pay no attention to references to Sojobo.

"During the Heian period (794-1185) many warriors within the Iga and Koga regions sought instruction from the monks in order to increase their efficiency in combat. Those fortunate enough to study from the Yamabushi and Sohei were taught the true value of subterfuge in warfare. It is said that the first established Koga groups came together around the year 940. There were eight original Koga families. They were the Koga, Ugai, Naikii, Mochizuki, Akutagawa, Ban, Nagano and Ueno. These eight groups were known as the “Koga Hachi Tengu,” or “Eight Tengu of Koga”. "

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

So you are basing your drivel on what another internet ninja fraud wrote?

Note that the page lists no references. And if "hachi tengu" really meant "eight tengu" then the movie "Seven Samurai" would be "Shichi samurai." Check on an internet search, it is not. The words are missing a possesive particle and a counter in Japanese.

In other words, it has been made up and is not Japanese.

Do a check on Martialtalk and e-budo of the words "Mark Grove" from whose site Sojobow basis his history on. He makes claims of being given a Japanese name by a teacher, but the Japanese he uses is not one that a Japanese would use. And there has been no proof he had a teacher instead of just making things up himself. And he has been caught changing his web site when his is caught in these types of things.

This is the type of source Sojobow uses. Is it any wonder we laugh at him?

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

I don't see the need for a reference when all I ask for is information. Your constant interferences are really annoying with respect to your trolling, flamming etc of everyone. I'll post below additional "Frauds" since they confirm what is posted above. Everytime you do endeavor to display your narcistic ability in Japanese language, we here you and some of us are impressed. Everytime you endeavor to prove me wrong - even for asking a question, it seems that - of all people, it is your own Soke who confirms me and not you. Thus far, you've proven me wrong about nothing and it time-consuming to keep having to address this when all is needed is that you answer the questions/topic asked, respond with civility, or do not interrupt us from Japan.

Additional "Drivel."

So you are basing your drivel on what another internet ninja fraud wrote?

In other words, it has been made up and is not Japanese

This is the type of source Sojobow uses. Is it any wonder we laugh at him?You may begin your laughter:

Bujinkan Croatia
http://www.bujinkan.hr/en/bujinkan/history.htm
We can divide them in two groups: schools in Iga and Koga regions of Japan. Those two were provinces where many schools developed , and we know today of Iga Ryu, Momochi Ryu, Genjitsu Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu and other as well as Tatara Ryu, Taira Ryu, Sasaki Ryu, Tachibana Hachi Tengu Ryu and other.
http://www.bufuikan.com/kogaden.html
Koga Ryu Ninpo consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946. ....Tachibana Hachi Tengu ryu, Kawachi Yon Tengu ryu While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu) that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga.
http://www.ninjutsu.de/erlangen/ninpo/english/ewhatryu.htm
Ninjutsu is a Japanese martial art which has emerged about 900 years ago. Some roots even trace thousands of years ago
http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:AIPYm_O0BekJ:www.geocities.com/bujinkanbuyu/buyu/nov_dic_ene2002.doc+Koga+Hachi+Tengu&hl=en
Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963,
A medida que el KOGA RYU crecía, había ocho familias (KOGA HACHI TENGU) que fueron más fuertes las cuales liderizaron las otras familias de KOGA. Estas ocho familias fueron KOGA, MOCHIZUKI, UGAI, NAIKII, AKUTAGAWA, UENO, BAN y NAGANO

http://www.geocities.com/gsensei/koga.html
"While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu)that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga."

Seems your weather predictions never work do they?:whip:

Excuse me Sojobow, but all you seem to prove is there are a lot of idiots on the internet who borrow from each other's sources. Let us look at just one of the sources you listed.


http://216.239.57.104/search?q=cache:AIPYm_O0BekJ:www.geocities.com/bujinkanbuyu/buyu/nov_dic_ene2002.doc+Koga+Hachi+Tengu&hl=en
Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963,
A medida que el KOGA RYU crecía, había ocho familias (KOGA HACHI TENGU) que fueron más fuertes las cuales liderizaron las otras familias de KOGA. Estas ocho familias fueron KOGA, MOCHIZUKI, UGAI, NAIKII, AKUTAGAWA, UENO, BAN y NAGANO

Hmm, it would seem that you are using Hatsumi as he wrote in Tetsuzan against me.

But I have the book. I looked on page 80 (Página 80) and could not find anything to support what you said. But the Spainish version could be different from the English version I have. So on page 81 and 82 I found the Ninja and Sports colum #23 from August 30 1963 which is an interview with Takamatsu. I assume this is what is meant by the Spanish, "Masaaki Hatsumi – Tetsuzan – Página 80 Ninja y Deportes (23) 3 Agosto 1963". There is no August 3rd after all.

In the version you give there is a mention of the Koga Hachi Tengu. But in the verison I have on my lap, there is no mention of it.

Anyone who has the Japanese or English Tetsuzans can check with what I say. Hatsumi/ Takamatsu never made any mention of the Koga Hachi Tengu. Maybe Kizaru, technopunk or Kreth can take a look at their books and tell us if I am wrong. I do not fear what they will say, but Sojobow should be sweating.

Also, there is no mention of an original eight families of Koga, or the names that are listed in the Spanish post listed in the Japanese or English translations. Anyone who has the English verison of Tetsuzan can see this for themselves on page 82 and 83.

And since Hatsumi did not say what your source says he said, I do not feel the need to point out the errors in sources from Ron Duncan and the like you listed. It still amazes me to this day that there are people in the Bujinkan who think that frauds like Ronald Duncan, Frank Dux and Ashida Kim are valid sources for hisotry. But they exist.

It is kind of like the whole debate about the ninja sword being straight. You can find a lot of web sites, etc saying that it was straight, but they are all wrong. If you go to Hatsumi, Nawa, Nakajima, etc you will not find one who says the sword was straight, but many many web sites that says it was.

And as long as you , Sojobow, say with an authorative voice that things were a certain way, the more people will laugh when your sources prove to be wrong.

And why did you start a debate about ninja history in the modern ninjutsu section?

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."



Ummmm, this was posted by YOU, not Heretic. Maybe you should actually pay attention to REALITY. Not your own little world.

As Don said, using another fraud's website for "proof" doesn't help. I can't believe I'm still trying to be logical with Sojo. It's like trying to argue physics with a monkey. Sheesh.

Master SloJoBlow can you enlighten us more on the new theory that the Apache were infact decents of a lost group of Ninja who took a wrong turn at Kyoto?

Also, what say you to the newly discovered truths?
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17473

Master SloJoBlow we wait with
Bated breath to hear your words of wisdom.

Hmmm, it seems I was caught up in Sojobow's deception for a short while.

My last post responded to a post by Sojobow where Hatsumi's name was part of the portion quoted. But a re-check has confirmed that on the page that Sojobow linked to Hatsumi never tried to say that there ever was a Koga Hachi Tengu. Sojobow merely tried to give that impression by editing in a deceitfull manner.

The page is one trying to give all the information they can on the Koga ryu. In the section immediatly prior to what Sojobow quoted is a section from Testuzan on the Koga ryu. The quote seems to be pretty close to what I see in the Japanese and English versions of Tetsuzan. The attributation to Hatsumi is then given at the END of the quotation. Sojobow cut out the quotation by Hatsumi, left in the attributation at the top and then quoted the section following which comes from another (presumably internet) source.

Hatsumi's name has no place in the quote. Sojobow left in in as part of an attempt to deceive people into thinking that even Hatsumi said that there was a group called the Koga Hachi Tengu.

So it is not a case of a Bujinkan member purposefully putting words in Hatsumi's mouth. That dubious honor belongs to Sojbow alone. The only thing I can fault the Bujinkan member who set up that page is believing a source on the internet that is faulty. But if you say something often enough, people will come to believe it. And there are plenty of web sites that will say just about anything you want them to- like the ninja using straight swords, etc.

Ummmm, this was posted by YOU, not Heretic. Maybe you should actually pay attention to REALITY. Not your own little world. This is the question of interest. Please read the very first line (at least the first eight words of the very first line).

This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:
"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

As Don said, using another fraud's website for "proof" doesn't help. I can't believe I'm still trying to be logical with Sojo. It's like trying to argue physics with a monkey. Sheesh.Unbelievable!

Here again, is the question.
This is partially the question asked of Heretic888 4 or 5 posts back:

"......I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far...."

A simple "I don't know" or "you can find more info here" would suffice.

Hmmm, it seems I was caught up in Sojobow's deception for a short while.

My last post responded to a post by Sojobow where Hatsumi's name was part of the portion quoted. But a re-check has confirmed that on the page that Sojobow linked to Hatsumi never tried to say that there ever was a Koga Hachi Tengu. Sojobow merely tried to give that impression by editing in a deceitfull manner. "Mensaje de Hatsumi Sensei"

There were about 5 other (half Bujinkan) sites. Each link is an obvious partial-page cut&paste. But, I'm still waiting for an answer to the question at hand. Plus, you were asked a question regarding the straight bladed sword by Kizaru (who somehow brings other's parents into his inquiries):

"But what about the "chokuto" style? I've heard that some ryu ha, like the Shinkage ryu still use them. I was under the impression that people who were not Samurai and not allowed to carry swords were still allowed to carry a single chokuto to defend themselves, and that this was the prefered "sidearm" of travelers. Not saying it was being exclusively used by Ninja, but that something similiar to it possibley did exist."

Also, does Hatsumi Sensei really have a reference to students in the Bujinkan should learn to fly airplanes? Seems his students here fail to see the importance in what he eludes to.

But actually, the only question I would expect you to answer is that of Kizaru as I don't think you have any pertinent info on the 8 Families.

"But actually, the only question I would expect you to answer is that of Kizaru as I don't think you have any pertinent info on the 8 Families.I posed a question regarding the "8 Families" and I really would appreciate it if you would comment on it. I was really surprised when I was thumbing through a book in the basement at the Jochi University library and found a few passges on them. I posted this question in another section of the forum but I'll put it here to make it easier for everyone to find.

Thank you!

Hi All,
I've been doing a little research on the Koga ryu Ninjitsu tradition, and found information on the Hachi Tengu that Sojobow has been talking about. It was mentioned in the book I found that along with "Dim Mak" the Tanaka family was known to be skilled at "Kancho-jutsu" ,"Nigiri Pe" and "Chanbara" techniques. My girlfriend, whose family is from Mie Ken (area that was once known as Iga/Koga) has also had these skills passed down in her family for generations. If the people claiming to be carrying on Senzo Tanaka's tradition could tell us here in a public forum (kuden not necessary)a little about these skills, it would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that what they claim is true. Maybe give an example of hand formations in Kancho-jutsu or Nigiri Pe techniques?.

Already answered the original.

There were about 5 other (half Bujinkan) sites. Each link is an obvious partial-page cut&paste.

And they all are run by people who can not speak/read Japanese and do not know what they are talking about and merely cut and pasted stuff from frauds like Ron Duncan and Frank Dux followers.

Simple fact- there is nothing in Japanese to back up the theory you so arrogently proclaimed of ninja existing 500 years before the Onin war in the form of the Koga hachi Tengu. The word can not be found in any Japanese source I have checked- probably because it is bad Japanese and was made up at some point.

This is besides the fact that you were activly deceptive about trying to imply that Hatsumi said something about the "Koga Hachi Tengu" when a quick look at the original site reveals he did not.

Thanks to you these forums will be gone in a short while.

with regards to el mensaje de hatsumi... all that part speaks of is using hakama as training uniforms. and that students shouldn't buy silk material but something more practicle and inexpensive for training. (that is my own translation).

peace

Thanks to you these forums will be gone in a short while.What did you expect? Or should we say: "wasn't it your, and others, intent anyway. We, in modern, never asked your input nor do I personally have any use for your off-thread, personal comments. None of use learn from your post. At least Kizaru adds something interesting to look into between sarcasum and parental insults. You add nothing but the same three names.

Well now, don't bet you lunch money on this little nugget. Why not just say "no one {that I agree with} made a peep...." Or something to that effect. But, none of us are perfect. I'm interested in finding more information on the Koga Hachi Tengu. This group of Ninja were supposed to have organized themselves prior to the Year 1000. Got ya by 500 years so far.

Key words: "supposed to". I repeat the admonition I gave earlier: oral "history" is not documented fact.

Yes, much of the oral traditions place the "ninja" far earlier than most historians do. Togakure Daisuke was supposed to have lived in the early 1200's. In his book, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions, Masaaki Hatsumi traces the grandmaster lineage of "Iga ryu Ninjutsu" all the way back to Gamon Doshi around the middle of the 1000's. The lineage he gives for "Koga ryu Ninjutsu" goes back even further.

But, the fact remains this is all still oral tradition. It is not documented history. The "ninja" as any kind of organized group were not historically active until the mid-to-late 1400's, when they did battle with the Ashikaga Shogun's forces. Any comments about them made prior to that is just speculation.

This actually makes sense when you look at it from a historical standpoint, too. The Iga-shu and Koga-shu were primarily known for their skills in commando and guerilla warfare. It wasn't 'til around the time of the Onin Wars that such groups would have even been needed. They clearly weren't active in such a fashion during the establishment of the Kamakura government (or else we would have heard something about guerilla armies from Iga and Koga at the time, which we don't). And, after the later feuds between the North and South Emperors were concluded, Japan saw a relatively long stretch of peace. So, it wasn't until the Onin Wars in the 15th century that the Iga-shu and Koga-shu would have even been needed. There would have been no point in them organizing themselves into commando forces in the first place.

Togakure ryu Ninjutsu was originally Togakure ryu Happo Hiken, I am told (which may also indicate a shared history with Kukishinden ryu Happo Hiken). That should probably give an indication that the whole spy/commando angle that people associate the "ninja" with didn't come about until later on in Japanese history. The 1500's and 1600's are the times when you hear all the legends and exploits of the "ninja" --- guys like Hanzo Hattori, Momochi Sandayu, Ishikawa Goemon, Fuuma Kotara, Sasuke Sarutobi, and so on. If you could name parallel groups or individuals prior to the 1400's, and what historical events they were supposedly involved in, I'm sure we would all be happy to listen.

Espionage and commando forces don't just "organize" and not do anything --- not get involved in Japan's history at all --- for 400 years, y'know.

Got this from a source you've used before too. So, if they "organized" around 950 a.d., they surely had to exist before then as ninja. Kooga is a family name drawn from somewhere!

Once again, oral tradition is not history. And, the "Koga" family name is drawn from the name of the region itself (as was very common at the time). It is not necessarily unique to any "ninja" families.

"During the Heian period (794-1185) many warriors within the Iga and Koga regions sought instruction from the monks in order to increase their efficiency in combat. Those fortunate enough to study from the Yamabushi and Sohei were taught the true value of subterfuge in warfare. It is said that the first established Koga groups came together around the year 940. There were eight original Koga families. They were the Koga, Ugai, Naikii, Mochizuki, Akutagawa, Ban, Nagano and Ueno. These eight groups were known as the “Koga Hachi Tengu,” or “Eight Tengu of Koga”. "

http://www.warriorquest.com/index.html

I'm with Don on this one. Online "histories" written by dubious "ninja" organizations are not reliable sources.

I think the major problem here, sojobow, is that you need to really read up on Japanese history and culture as a whole before going specifically into the "ninja". The entire notion of large forces of espionage and commando units training for active duty during the times you mentioned is completely implausible. The political and military climate at the time just wouldn't support something like that.


I don't see the need for a reference when all I ask for is information.

You won't find any "references" for something some internet ninjer just made up to support his art.

Laterz.

Key words: "supposed to". I repeat the admonition I gave earlier: oral "history" is not documented fact.Self evident isn't it. But simply because something isn't in writing, does not automatically make it not so. There is also "factual oral history" and documented lies.

Yes, much of the oral traditions place the "ninja" far earlier than most historians do. Togakure Daisuke was supposed to have lived in the early 1200's. In his book, Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions, Masaaki Hatsumi traces the grandmaster lineage of "Iga ryu Ninjutsu" all the way back to Gamon Doshi around the middle of the 1000's. The lineage he gives for "Koga ryu Ninjutsu" goes back even further.I rest my case.

It wasn't 'til around the time of the Onin Wars that such groups would have even been needed. They clearly weren't active in such a fashion during the establishment of the Kamakura government (or else we would have heard something about guerilla armies from Iga and Koga at the time, which we don't). But I have. I'll try and locate it.

I'm with Don on this one. Online "histories" written by dubious "ninja" organizations are not reliable sources.Regardless, the dubiousness does not rule out plausible truths. Were there Yamabushi? yes. Were there Sohei? yes. Did they both teach? Yes. Did they teach some who lived in the mountain ranges that include the Koga and Iga areas? Yes. Did they teach the use of their own weapons? Yes. Did they teach the professional strategist now called "Ninja"? Yes. Personally, its possible, written or oral.

I think the major problem here, sojobow, is that you need to really read up on Japanese history and culture as a whole before going specifically into the "ninja". The entire notion of large forces of espionage and commando units training for active duty during the times you mentioned is completely implausible. The political and military climate at the time just wouldn't support something like that.Appreciate your advice. Still begs the question however: If the forces were first written about in 1400, they surely must have existed "before" then. Just didn't pop up, fully armed, trained, mobilized, entrenched, contracted, pre-proven as a viable alternative to the Samurai, over night.

What of the the "history" written in surrounding Nations of warfare with the Japanese. I would guess that there are sections in their histories that elude to these "Ninja." Japan did endeavor warefare with both Korea and China. What of the history (written and oral) of these other Nations? Possible or Impossible? Plausible of Implausible.

Then again, I just was interested in what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught during this time period of 950 a.d.. The teaching are what interest me. The "who they taught" is incidental. Subtefuge is a worthy subject to study. Can't read Japanese so i'll have to rely on other's research for now.

You won't find any "references" for something some internet ninjer just made up to support his art. Laterz.
If you read the page, he does mention that his statements orginated from Japanese sources. I just didn't ask him for the sources. The subject is also under collegent study by students from major universities in other countries. Some working on Ph.Ds etc who speak the language and are completing their research in Japan. Should we consider their research. Or do we just disregard their research just because they attend the University of Moscow or something?

You bring up some good points that I think are interesting. I just also think that some of our greatest mass murderers and serial killers had/have extremely high I.Q.s. We can also learn from them. This, I found of interest from Phycological Research professionals.

So you are saying that you are one of the ones "that know"?

OK Pinky, I am going to have to hurt you now.

Let me ask you this, did the US Army Rangers that went ashore at Normandy use the same flintlocks that Roger's Rangers used in the French- Indian war? (PS- both the French and the Indians lost.)

Yes there was 200 years difference between the two wars, but you are talking about over 500 years between the abandoning of the double edged, straight bladed sword and the rise of the class we now know as ninja.

Oh yeah, there were people living in Iga 500 years before beggining of what we call the age of wars in Japan. But they can not be called ninja anymore than the guys running around in Bronze age England with pointy objects can be likened to the knights that we know of from after Billy did his number at Hastings.

Oh, and there is a reason why the Japanese went with the new curved model over the older style. It is because THE OLD STYLE SUCKED! They could not get rid of the old style fast enough. Within 50 years you stop seeing references and illustrations of the old style swords on the battlefield and everyone using the newer, curved katana/tachi style. The straight blade was kept only by members of the Imperial court much like the royalty of England is proceeeded by a ceremonial mace even today.

If you are trying to say that someone kept a sword for 500 hundred years before using it, I say you should ask anyone who has owned a bike in Japan and see why they call this place the land of perpetual humidity. Everything rusts. And metal was kind of rare a thousand years ago. Some of the oldest buildings in Japan's first permanent capital at Nara are made without a single metal nail. So, the idea that someone who was so without resources that they could not get a new sword, or melt the old one down into something more usefull could somehow keep a blade intact for a longer time than there have been white men living in your country is just plain silly.

And as for you appeal to the authority of Stephen Hayes, have you read his fifth book from Ohara Publications? In it he clearly states that the idea of the ninja using a straight bladed sword is a myth. It is only in his early books that he says they used one. Why? Well, humans make mistakes. Hayes is human, thus Hayes makes mistakes. So his early works may have said that the ninja used swords based on a misunderstanding on his part from a TV series popular at the time he was living here. Maybe not. The important thing from your standpoint is that he changed his opinion when he got more knowledgeable.

When you get to Japanese sources on the sword, you can not find one that says that the ninja used a straight bladed sword. Hatsumi does not say it, and neither does other sources such as Okuse, Nawa, Nakajima, etc. We have gone over this time and time again. The ninja did not use straight bladed swords. Show me a Japanese source that says they did.
Thankyou Don, very informative. I stand corrected.
I do understand that Hayes is human and makes mistakes, that is all fine. I was using comments of his from his older works which is why it would sound "outdated" and incorrect. I dont believe that Ninja clans all ran around swinging ninjato'ss, for many reasons. All i was trying to say is that who's to say that a few didn't? Some people seem to imply that it was impossible for a Ninja's hand to make physical connection with straight bladed sword! But i understand you're point. And your right, this is a very exhausted topic.

Sojobow, whats with the scoring crap? i think its best that you dont turn the exchanging of information and the education of people (including myself) into a competition. I wasn't trying to "battle" Don like you made it sound...unecessary conflict. (Kizaru, why do you team me and Sojobow up? It's ok i have a good sense of humour)

Heretic, From my understanding 'Katana or Ken' is Japanese for Sword, a sword in general not a particular style.The word encompasses Chokuto, Shinogi Zukuri, Hira Zukuri all styles...I think.Hopefully Don can clear up the translation.

thanks.
-andrew

At least Kizaru adds something interesting to look into between ...
Thank you!

...sarcasum and parental insults...Must've touched a nerve with that one, eh?

Self evident isn't it. But simply because something isn't in writing, does not automatically make it not so. There is also "factual oral history" and documented lies.

You're beating around the bush. Again.

The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of, to support the notion that the Iga and Koga "ninja" had organized themselves into effective guerilla forces prior to the Onin Wars of the 15th century. Meaning, if they did exist in such a capacity, they did not involve themselves in Japan's wars until the 1470's or so.

Unless, of course, no one just noticed brigands of highly-trained commandos disrupting their wars for a couple of centuries. I suppose its possible they just "looked the other way" for 300 years. *chuckle*

"Could be" and "what if" are not the basis to support a historical theory. They are the basis of groundless speculation.

I rest my case.

You have no case, and you still evince that you do not understand that oral tradition is not proven history. That's not the point of oral tradition (kuden) anyway.

But I have. I'll try and locate it.

Sorry, sojobow, but no dice. Pardon me if I don't just take your word on references to these Iga and Koga commando armies during the Kamakura Period --- especially since no one else, not even the fellas in Japan, seem to know about them.

And, before you bother, "histories" from internet dojos and unverified oral traditions do not count as reputable sources.

Regardless, the dubiousness does not rule out plausible truths. Were there Yamabushi? yes. Were there Sohei? yes. Did they both teach? Yes.

Sure.

Did they teach some who lived in the mountain ranges that include the Koga and Iga areas? Yes. Did they teach the use of their own weapons? Yes. Did they teach the professional strategist now called "Ninja"? Yes. Personally, its possible, written or oral.

Possibility does not equal probability. This is another of your speculative diversions. Again.

Also, even if the sohei and yamabushi did "teach" the Iga and Koga "ninja" as you claim, this does not equate that the group you are searching for (the "Koga Eight Demons" or whatever they were called) actually existed.

You are using a generalization to prove a specific circumstance that may or may not have happened. Its a huge logical fallacy.

Once again, proof is required. Not possibilities, not what ifs, not speculations. But, rather, actual proof.

Appreciate your advice. Still begs the question however: If the forces were first written about in 1400, they surely must have existed "before" then. Just didn't pop up, fully armed, trained, mobilized, entrenched, contracted, pre-proven as a viable alternative to the Samurai, over night.

Of course they didn't just self-generate in the 1470's. But, the notion that they were hiding in secret, never using the skills they had trained in, for the better part of 400 years is just laughable. The truth is that the commando groups such as the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi did not exist until they were needed, which was in the 15th century on.

Also, they were not an "alternative" to the samurai.

What of the the "history" written in surrounding Nations of warfare with the Japanese. I would guess that there are sections in their histories that elude to these "Ninja." Japan did endeavor warefare with both Korea and China. What of the history (written and oral) of these other Nations? Possible or Impossible? Plausible of Implausible.

First off, its "allude".

Secondly, unless you can provide specific references in these Chinese and Korean historical sources, then you are once again engaging in baseless speculations.

Yet again, possibility does not equal probability.

Then again, I just was interested in what the Yamabushi and Sohei taught during this time period of 950 a.d.. The teaching are what interest me. The "who they taught" is incidental. Subtefuge is a worthy subject to study. Can't read Japanese so i'll have to rely on other's research for now.

Its not "incidental" if you're going to pose it as some uber-secret Koger teachings. Also, what makes you think the yamabushi and sohei taught "subterfuge" in the first place??

If you read the page, he does mention that his statements orginated from Japanese sources.

Yeah, so does Ashida Kim. Just because something is said, does not make it true. I actually think this is related to your reliance on oral "histories" as being factual sources --- you really have a hard time analyzing any claim that you happen to like.

The subject is also under collegent study by students from major universities in other countries. Some working on Ph.Ds etc who speak the language and are completing their research in Japan. Should we consider their research. Or do we just disregard their research just because they attend the University of Moscow or something?

These discussions would really go about more smoothly if you refrained from lying.

I just also think that some of our greatest mass murderers and serial killers had/have extremely high I.Q.s. We can also learn from them. This, I found of interest from Phycological Research professionals.

And, what exactly does that have to do with any of this??

*shrugs* Laterz.

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Let's move on because I keep adding "that I know of, to the end of every paragraph you've written and its really unfair to you for me to do so. Try it yourself and see if your post makes more sense by adding your "that I know of," to the end of each paragraph.

Elude or "allude ?" this is the question. (shakespear or someone). Thanks, but I'm hooked on phonics.:idunno:

You're beating around the bush. Again.

The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of, to support the notion that the Iga and Koga "ninja" had organized themselves into effective guerilla forces prior to the Onin Wars of the 15th century. Meaning, if they did exist in such a capacity, they did not involve themselves in Japan's wars until the 1470's or so.

Unless, of course, no one just noticed brigands of highly-trained commandos disrupting their wars for a couple of centuries. I suppose its possible they just "looked the other way" for 300 years. *chuckle*

"Could be" and "what if" are not the basis to support a historical theory. They are the basis of groundless speculation.



You have no case, and you still evince that you do not understand that oral tradition is not proven history. That's not the point of oral tradition (kuden) anyway.



Sorry, sojobow, but no dice. Pardon me if I don't just take your word on references to these Iga and Koga commando armies during the Kamakura Period --- especially since no one else, not even the fellas in Japan, seem to know about them.

And, before you bother, "histories" from internet dojos and unverified oral traditions do not count as reputable sources.



Sure.



Possibility does not equal probability. This is another of your speculative diversions. Again.

Also, even if the sohei and yamabushi did "teach" the Iga and Koga "ninja" as you claim, this does not equate that the group you are searching for (the "Koga Eight Demons" or whatever they were called) actually existed.

You are using a generalization to prove a specific circumstance that may or may not have happened. Its a huge logical fallacy.

Once again, proof is required. Not possibilities, not what ifs, not speculations. But, rather, actual proof.



Of course they didn't just self-generate in the 1470's. But, the notion that they were hiding in secret, never using the skills they had trained in, for the better part of 400 years is just laughable. The truth is that the commando groups such as the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi did not exist until they were needed, which was in the 15th century on.

Also, they were not an "alternative" to the samurai.



First off, its "allude".

Secondly, unless you can provide specific references in these Chinese and Korean historical sources, then you are once again engaging in baseless speculations.

Yet again, possibility does not equal probability.



Its not "incidental" if you're going to pose it as some uber-secret Koger teachings. Also, what makes you think the yamabushi and sohei taught "subterfuge" in the first place??



Yeah, so does Ashida Kim. Just because something is said, does not make it true. I actually think this is related to your reliance on oral "histories" as being factual sources --- you really have a hard time analyzing any claim that you happen to like.



These discussions would really go about more smoothly if you refrained from lying.



And, what exactly does that have to do with any of this??

*shrugs* Laterz.

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.

Second, there is no documentation that you know of as well to support your claims. You can only point to web sites and nothing in Japanese. I can point you to a web site that will say that the US never went to the moon and that 9-11 was done by the Isrealis. But there is no proof that these sites can point to.

Lastely, your view and use of history is flawed. You want to say that just because there is no proof for what you say does not mean we should beleive it.

OK, using that logic we can say that there is no documentation that we know of Frank Dux using his dojo to molest students. Gee, if we then tried to use your logic for history we would get a lawsuit from Dux. He would demand proof that we show some sort of proof that he molested students before we talked about it as a reality. But you cannot show proof of ninjas existing before the 15th century or a link to China and yet state both of those things as if they were fact time and time again.

So that is why we demand proof to your silly little theories. Not speculation, not conjecture, not some web site run by someone almost as clueless as you, FACTS, and in Japanese if possible.

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.1.) Kind of hard for me to show you anything "in all of Japan" since I'm not there. So, excuse me for not being situated in your location. Amazing that you know what exist and what does not exist "in all of Japan".

2) What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus, there is no way I can provide you with the proof you will accept. Not putting words in your mouth so allow me to again state that I consider anything "Ninja" as a "professional designation" and not a person, individual or band. From what I can tell, your definition of the term "Ninja" is different. One does not have to be physically tied to "all of Japan" to be Ninja.

Second, there is no documentation that you know of as well to support your claims. I "claim" nothing. I only ask. I can't tell you where I am. Can you? Where is Earth right now? (Hint: It's not where it was when I asked the question). I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds? Not important to me so I need no further explanations. Just ironic.

Lastely, your view and use of history is flawed. Absolutely. Can't disagree with you on this one. Glad that I am learning every day. Its like pulling teeth to get you guys to disgourge (sp.l) information or even hints. Still trying to get one of you to tell me where I can find more information on the 8 Tengu Ryu. He's thinking about giving it up. Very interesting.
OK, using that logic we can say that there is no documentation that we know of Frank Dux True, you don't. But who the heck is this person you continuously refer to in 99% of your post?
But you cannot show proof of ninjas existing before the 15th century or a link to China and yet state both of those things as if they were fact time and time again. Sure I can. This one is easy. But first, DEFINE NINJA!
in Japanese if possible. I keep telling you: I CANNOT SPEAK OR READ OR DRAW PICTURES OR EVEN COMMUNICATE IN JAPANESE. Geeeeze :idunno: . Again, we are impressed with your dual languages but give it a rest. We heard you last year. DON ROLEY SPEAKS JAPANESE EVERYBODY. LETS GIVE HIM A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE (after we see if he can fight).

Help me out with this question/quest please. Someone in one of these threads mentioned that he has read books about Chinese Ninjas and hates them all (paraphrasing only). If you notice the post, let me know as I would like to ask him the name of the books he's referring to. Can't believe that someone, other than sojobow, even thinks of the existance of Chinese Ninjas let alone writing books about them. Hope they aren't written in Japanese.

Item Last: Just a question. If I show you the reference to Books by Hatsumi Sensei that refer to Ninjas in existance prior to F/Y 1,000 a.d.. would that be considered relative proof? Since HS can't speak or write in English, will I have deal with you defending that the proof isn't good enough because something was lost in translation? What if its on his universal website?

As Kizaru says. I digress

I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan.

Doubtfull. More stuff you throw out just to confuse the issue. "Oh, I am only asking...."

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.


Again, doubtfull. Sounds like a great excuse to try to say they exist without actually having to back up what you say-which is why we call you a troll.

So lets say I said that these photos do not exist. G'head show the photos to us.

2) What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus, My definition of a "Ninja Band" is that they wail on guitars, have face paint cooler than KISS and get tons of babes.


DON ROLEY SPEAKS JAPANESE EVERYBODY. LETS GIVE HIM A BIG ROUND OF APPLAUSE YEAH DON!!! Hey, I speak Japanese too, even Tochigi dialect, can I get a big round of applause too?!?!?


(after we see if he can fight).Are you challenging Don Roley to a fight? That's kind of what it looks like, Sojobow challenging Don Roley to a fight. I hope Kaith doesn't peek at this thread, I thought that was grounds for getting booted. But hey, if you want to challenge Don Roley to a fight, be my guest.


As Kizaru says. I digress When have I ever said that? Of course, I've been hit and/or dropped on my head so many times I probably wouldn't remember anyways...

Well, first of all there is no documentation in all of Japan for ninja bands running around in the time frame you want them to exist.Some of the people we wish to thank for the sources are here listed in no particular order. . . Sveneric Bogsaeter * Perti Ruha * Stan Skrabut * Mariette V. D. Vliet * Charles Daniels * Bernadette V. D. Vliet * Stephen Turnbull * Ben Jones * Paul Richardson * HATSUMI Masaaki * Gothenburg ninposaellskap (and possibly many others)


KOGA RYU NINJUTSU
Peter Carlsson
Text and Research by Peter Carlsson Translated by Mats Hjelm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Koga Ryu Ninjutsu was the other ninja clan of importance in Japan. This ryu consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946.
It was after Mochizuki Saburo Kameie triumphed in the war against Taira No Masakado that he received a bit of land southeast of the Omo province. The area was called Koga-Gun, so Mochizuke changed his name to Koga Oni No Kami Kameie. It was his son, Oni No Kami Iechika, a talent in the military as well as in literature, that was supposed to have been the founder of the Koga Ryu. It is said that he studied Genjutsu from the Buddhist monk Tatsumaki Hoshi who lived in the area.
The tradition kept going for seven generations through Oni No Kami Ienari, Iesada, Ienaga, Iekiyo, Ietoo, Ieyoshi and Yoshiyasu, before it spread to other families: Mochizuki, Ugai, Naiki, and Akutagawa. To these five head families the remaining troops from both the north and south kingdom in the Namboku were joined (1335-1395) . With help from Koga Ryu they grew to 53 families. Some of the ryu (families) within Koga Ryu were:

Koga ryu
Taro ryu
Otomo ryu
Shinpi ryu
Kuruya ryu
Hiryu ryu
Taira ryuTomo ryu
Fujiwara ryu Isshu ryu
Tatara ryu
Sasaki ryu
Byaku ryu
Sugawara ryu
Tachibana Hachi Tengu ryu
Kawachi Yon Tengu ryu
While the Koga Ryu grew, there were eight families (Koga Hachi Tengu) that would be the strongest, leading the other ryu in Koga. The eight families were: Koga, Mochizuki, Ugai, Naikii, Akutagawa; Ueno, Ban and Nagano. But even groups in Koga such as Hiryugumi, Kakuryugumi, Tachibana Hachitengu Gumi and Kawachi Yon Tengu Gumi had ninjutsu masters of high class.
Under the Hokuto period (1441-1451), the leading heirs were Koga Saburo, Mochizuki Goro, Ugai Ryuhoshi, Naiki Fujibe and Akutagawa Kazuma. Under the Bunmei period (1469-1487) they were Koga Saburo Ii, Mochizuki Yajiro, Ugai Chiaki, Naiki Gohei and Akutagawa Tenpei who was hired by the Sasaki family - the Daimyo in that area - to lead their troops against Ashikaga Yoshizawa.
Almost 100 years later the Sasaki family hired ninjas again. This time they were ninjas from both the Koga and Iga area (1570). They also hired samurais from Koga and the goal was to destroy Oda Nobunaga. The samurais were trained intensively for a short period to be able to fight under the strategies that the ninja jonin had worked out.
Sasaki's army was divided into three divisions. The first one was led by ninjas from Mikumo Ryu, Takanose Ryu; Mizuhara Ryu and Inui Ryu. The other army was led by the other 53 Koga families, and the third by the Sasaki samurais. In the battle, Mikumo Iyo No Kami, who led one of the Sasaki armies suddenly changed sides and attacked the Sasaki army's back,. This led to the defeat of Sasaki, who barely managed to escape.
When Tokugawa Ieyasu fought for power in Japan, the Fushima castle near Kyoto was occupied. They had to defend themselves against the armies in the west long enough for the Tokugawa army to regroup for the fight in Seki Ga Hara in the east. There were also 400 ninjas from Koga Ryu who helped them with the defense - some of them in the castle, while others terrorized the enemy outside with different kinds of raids. About 100 of them died, and after the Tokugawa victory they held a ceremony commemorating the dead, among whom Mochizuki and Arakawa were mentioned to have been killed.
One of the last times the Koga ninja were active in a battle was at Shima-Bara No Ran, when Christian samurais rebelled and occupied the Hara castle in Shimabara province on Kyushu. Ten ninjas from Koga Ryu were sent by Izumo Kami Nobutsuna to gather information for the Shogun samurais to prepare an attack against the castle.
They were led by Mochizuki Heidayu, 63 years old and Akutagawa Kiyouemon, 60 years old, both veterans from the battle at Sekigahara. The others from Koga were:

Iwane Kanbei, 56 years old
Kamogai Kanuemon, 56 years old
Tomei Gohei, 53 years old
Iwani Kanbei, 45 years old
Natsumi Kakunosuke, 41 years old
Mochizuki Yoemon ,33 years old
Akutagawa Shichirobei, 25 years old
Yamanaka Jutayu, 24 years old.
They arrived on the 4th of January 1638, and their first assignment was to create a map of the area around the castle. Only 15 days later, they sent a detailed map of the castle and the forces protecting it to Edo and the Shogun, Tokugawa Iemitsu.
It is also said that the ninjas from Koga, or Ongyo No Mono (hidden persons) as they were also called, infiltrated the castle each night without problem. The 21st of January they stole food from the castle, which did not make it easier for the enemy since they already had very little food. They also managed to get some secret passwords.
January 27th, five Koga ninjas managed to get into the castle disguised as soldiers. They was Mochizuki Yoemon, Arakawa Shichirobei, Natsume Kakano-Suke, Yamanaka Jutayu and Tomo Gohei. The troops outside the castle fired with their rifles, and the enemy in the castle automatically blew out all the torches so they wouldn't draw more fire to them. Later that night, when the guards began to relax, the ninja could easily climb over the walls in the protection of the darkness.
Arakawa got careless and fell down in a hole. He got immediate help from Mochizuki. But because of the noise, the guards lit the torches again, and they was spotted. Mochizuki and Arakawa both ran right through the troops, snatched one of the Christian flags on the way, and got shot at. All five managed to escape, but both Mochizuki and Arakawa got wounded.
When the castle was attacked the 24th of February, the Koga ninjas served as an office of connections between the two troops. As a parenthesis, it can be mentioned that Musashi Miyamoto (one of the most famous swordsmen throughout the history), was one of the plan makers on the Shogun's side. He was hit by a rock thrown by a woman from the castle wall, he had to retreat from the battle complaining about his loss of youthful power.
The Koga Ryu survived into the middle of the 20th century through one man, Fujita Seiko (1899-1966). He said that he was the 14th Soke of Koga Ryu, but there was no proof to those claims. He led small special units in the jungles in the second world war.
There is a book called "Ninjutsu No Gokui" (The secrets of Ninjutsu), written by Gingetsu, who learned the techniques and history over a long period of time from Tanemura Ihachiro, a jonin in Koga Ryu. The techniques described in that book is very similar to those in the Togakure Ryu from Iga.
Those who claim to be "masters" of Koga Ryu today must be considered as con artists and nothing else. Based on the fact the body movement from the Iga Ryu and Koga Ryu was very similar, the "supposed Koga Ryu" that is taught today does not have much in similarity with the Togakure Ryu and the other traditional systems from Iga and Koga.

THE DISCLAIMER & END NOTES
The original Text and research was made by Peter Carlsson who may be reached at <datortek@sbbs.se>. Translation was made from Swedish to English by Mats Hjelm who may be contacted at <helmet@algonet.se>
This is absolutely not to be taken as "true fact" since it is quite impossible to prove the Kuden. We would be happy for any kind of creative and serious research that you have found out, so if you have noticed some errors in this text or would like to point out something else worth a note please let us know so we could update and make this even more accurate. And if possible, please try to back up your claims with some sort of verification or serious references.
A big problem when one does research about the history of ninja and Bujinkan is when one compares information in books about the subject with general acknowledged history in history books. This means that all information in circulation is to be considered as gossip until it can be compared and proven against general history. This includes the text above.

Some of the people we wish to thank for the sources are here listed in no particular order. . . Sveneric Bogsaeter * Perti Ruha * Stan Skrabut * Mariette V. D. Vliet * Charles Daniels * Bernadette V. D. Vliet * Stephen Turnbull * Ben Jones * Paul Richardson * HATSUMI Masaaki * Gothenburg ninposaellskap (and possibly many others)
================================================== ========

You already know Steve Turnbull, Charles Daniels (you might not like him very much though), Hatsumi Masaaki (who, according to you, can ask in person). Still at 500 years and counting.

Really though, enough is enough. Lets just say you don't agree and I do. I'm showing you what I have, but you show nothing. Show us where someone says (other than heretic888) that "no ninja existed prior to the 15th century." Show us your souce and text.

Again, doubtfull. Sounds like a great excuse to try to say they exist without actually having to back up what you say-which is why we call you a troll.

So lets say I said that these photos do not exist. G'head show the photos to us.

Gee, how will Sojobow get out of this. Let me see... maybe he will try to get the conversation going in an entirely different direction altogether with a little deception. Let me see, maybe he can post something about how I said there is no documentiation from Japan for what he claims, and then post yet another non-Japanese source from the internet. Maybe if they quote from Hatusmi on ONE aspect, he can get people to believe that he is the source for EVERYTHING on the document.

After all, he has already been caught trying to make it seem like Hatsumi said something he did not. And just got caught saying he could provide proof, and is now trying to distract.

YEAH DON!!! Hey, I speak Japanese too, even Tochigi dialect, can I get a big round of applause too?!?!?i speak spanish! does that award an applause?


Are you challenging Don Roley to a fight? That's kind of what it looks like, Sojobow challenging Don Roley to a fight. I hope Kaith doesn't peek at this thread, I thought that was grounds for getting booted. But hey, if you want to challenge Don Roley to a fight, be my guest. i think sojo is refering to ralph severe's post on don not having any fighting experience.


When have I ever said that? Of course, I've been hit and/or dropped on my head so many times I probably wouldn't remember anyways...i think kreth or duckofdeath said that.

I really stopped reading your post after reading up to the very first comma (to wit): The point I was making is that there is no documentation, that I know of,. The phrase "that I know of, explains your point of view or/and your perspective. Even your logic (although you have a right to it) is not "documentation."

Let's move on because I keep adding "that I know of, to the end of every paragraph you've written and its really unfair to you for me to do so. Try it yourself and see if your post makes more sense by adding your "that I know of," to the end of each paragraph.

Here's a better idea: try not engaging in faulty logic to defend your historical fantasies.

The line of arguing above, that since you don't know of any proof does not mean said proof does not exist, is completely baseless. I could use said argument to give "reason" as to why there are little green men in octagonal spaceships watching us from space. I mean, sure, I don't know of any evidence to support such a claim ---- but, remember, that doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist!!

Arguments like that can be used to rationalize "support" for ANY position --- no matter how outlandish or ludicrous. This is just yet another example of the baseless speculation you pass off as "research".

Also, even if we disregard the lack of primary evidence for a moment, your position still falls prey to the wealth of correlative counterevidence --- such as, for example, that Japan did not experience any period of great warfare since the feuds of the North and South Emperors (early-to-mid 1300's) until the time of the Onin no Ran (mid-to-late 1400's). This is a +100 year stretch of relative peace, thus precluding the necessity for large commando forces whatsoever.

Thus, sojobow, your position is logically weak on two fronts: 1) its lack of primary evidence to support it, and 2) its inability to account for the wealth of established counterevidence that refutes it.

Kind of hard for me to show you anything "in all of Japan" since I'm not there. So, excuse me for not being situated in your location. Amazing that you know what exist and what does not exist "in all of Japan".

Yet again, another diversionary tactic used to justify perpetual baseless speculation. You argue that, because no one has purviewed the historical evidence of "all of Japan", that evidence to support your claim might actually exist.

You're right, it might. And, evidence might exist to support the exitence of my octagonal spaceship-dwelling green men, too.

As before, "might be", "could be", "what if", and "its possible" are not sound logic here. Possibility is not probability.

What you consider a "ninja band" and what I consider a "ninja band" just simply are too different in definition thus, there is no way I can provide you with the proof you will accept. Not putting words in your mouth so allow me to again state that I consider anything "Ninja" as a "professional designation" and not a person, individual or band. From what I can tell, your definition of the term "Ninja" is different. One does not have to be physically tied to "all of Japan" to be Ninja.

Well, what you consider a "ninja band", sojobow, is quite different than what the historians and researchers that study the individuals in question have in mind. Granted, they themselves don't all agree, but they would simply laugh at your "non-Japanese ninja" speculation here.

As I understand it (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong), the term "shinobi no mono" (the modern "ninja") as applied to actual groups of people was first directed to the Iga-shu and Koga-shu warriors in the 15th century. If you have references to other uses of the term prior to this, sojobow, then feel free to share them with us.

I "claim" nothing. I only ask.

I did request that stop lying previously, sojobow.

I can't tell you where I am. Can you? Where is Earth right now? (Hint: It's not where it was when I asked the question).

Oh, look, another diversionary tactic to support a baseless argument. Yay.

I can, however, show you different perspectives on that which you claim. Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds?

Prove it. If the event in question happened as you said it did, then surely you'd be able to contact someone from Japan that witnessed something you have super-secret photographs of. Provide their contact information for independent corroboration.

Help me out with this question/quest please. Someone in one of these threads mentioned that he has read books about Chinese Ninjas and hates them all (paraphrasing only).

"Hates them all"?? Dear lord.... :rolleyes:

Can't believe that someone, other than sojobow, even thinks of the existance of Chinese Ninjas let alone writing books about them. Hope they aren't written in Japanese.

They aren't. I've come across books that make dubious claims like that, and they are all, without exception, written by British or Americans.

Item Last: Just a question. If I show you the reference to Books by Hatsumi Sensei that refer to Ninjas in existance prior to F/Y 1,000 a.d.. would that be considered relative proof?

Hatsumi is recounting the oral history of the schools in question. Last time I checked, orally transmitted stories do not constitute "historical evidence".

But, then again, that seems to be the basic concept you have been having trouble grasping.

What if its on his universal website?

Its not.

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

I really do think you should see a good psychiatrist, sojobow.

Koga Ryu Ninjutsu was the other ninja clan of importance in Japan. This ryu consisted of 53 families who probably came together under the Tenkyo period between 938 and 946.

Yet again, sojobow, Peter Carlsson is recounting the oral stories associated with the creation of the ryuha in question. It is not documented history.

I think you will find that a great number of old ryuha have oral stories that can't possibly be true, usually intended to paint their school in a prestigious light. How many, for example, claim to have been founded by gods, tengu, emperors, immortals, etc?? How many, for example, claim a connection to Minamoto Yoritomo, Minamoto Yoshitsune, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Yamato Takeru, and so forth??

This is the primary reason why such oral traditions are not regarded as veritable historical records. Deal with it.

Laterz.

Kizaru:

Now you know that Ninja do not make challenges. I don't have enought cash laying around to get to Japan anyway so it definately isn't a challenge. Just that he and I spend so much time with these fruitless conversations that I'm slacking off the practice.

Any yes: GIVE YOURSELF A GREAT ROUND OF APPLAUSE TOO !!!!!!!!

First of all, LET GIVE ENSON HIS DUE FOR HIS SECOND LANGUAGE TOO. DRUM ROLL PLEASE.


Thus, sojobow, your position is logically weak on two fronts: 1) its lack of primary evidence to support it, and 2) its inability to account for the wealth of established counterevidence that refutes it. Now even Hatsumi is lying. Gave you contact info. Try asking them for the proof and thereby bypassing me. Incidentally, haven't seen you show us anything other than these long, drawn-out, critiques on subjects no one is even discussing.

But, I think I've figured it out. Web documents like the one I pasted above are compiled by, thus far, Judans and other ranking dans in your - note my - traditional war art. Then, they - like Carlsson, Hatsummi S. - are all accused of sojobow's digressions even up to their own Soke. Then one wonders why? Ooooops. Don Roley wrote an essay on Koga Ryu and his essay, compared to Carlsson's, don't match and this "modern" sections keeps referring to someone other than Roley. Then, heretic888 comes to the rescue with God-knows-what-he-just-said. What did your mouth just say?:whip:

Think we better move on. Things are starting to illuminatate other motives. It wasn't my intent to attack Roley's essay nor Roley personally, I'm just looking for these Hachi Tengu. But, I understand. If I come up with anything resembling proof that the Hachi Tengu ever existed and was established prior to the 15th Century - in this case the 10th Century - not only are your whatevertheywere wrong, but also, Roley's "Koga Ryu" essay is trash.

Hatsumi is recounting the oral history of the schools in question. Last time I checked, orally transmitted stories do not constitute "historical evidence".

More importantly, Hatsumi's oral tradtion does not back up the picture of the ninja that Sojobow is trying to present.

Recall that Sojobow is trying to push the position that ninja used the ancient, straight blades that preceeded the tachi/katana. But the time frame is wrong, so he is trying to push the time frame of ninja activity forward several hundred years. I believe he stated at first that the "Koga Hachi Tengu" were active in the early tenth century.

And the important thing is that Hatsumi has said neither

A) that there were ninja traditions prior to the time that the straight bladed sword was dropped or
B) that there were active bands of ninja running around when these swords were used.

At best, you can say that Hatsumi has laid out the traditions that would eventually evolve into what we know of as ninja after the adoption of the curved blade.

Let me give you an example. One of the oral traditons we follow is that of the Togakure ryu. It is said to have been started by Nishina Daisuke. Nishina is an established figure who was a high ranked retainer of Kiso no Yoshinaka. When Yoshinaka was defeated, Ninshina fled to Iga and is thought of as the first soke of the Togakure ryu. This was the 12th century and Nishina would have used a tachi and not a chokuto, and even that would have been a secondary weapon to the bow.

Now, did Nishina act like a ninja? Nope. You cannot find a single reference of him sneaking around or gathering information. (Running for his life- yes.) I can believe that he passed along some skills to his family, adopted or real. I have seen the way Japanese can keep family traditions alive and I believe that when you make a fall in status from samurai to farmer you would be eager to let your kids know that your family was not always like this.

But for centuries, where would be the use of disguise, espionage, entering enemy territory to recruit agents, etc that make up what we know the ninja to be? If there were bandits in the Iga area, maybe the descendents of Ninshina would have snuck up on them in their camp and attacked, or defended them when the raided. But these are acts that foot soldiers would be familiar with and not exclusive to ninja.

Again, no ninja bands running around. No one serving the role we call "ninja" can be verified until the late 15th century. I believe that the Togakure tradition has lessons passed down in some form from the 12th century, but the knowledge was not trapped in amber and evolved to fit the needs of the area and time. (Heck- Hatsumi has a book out on using a pistol- so the evolution continues.) So there was the Togakure tradition as far back as Nishna when he was running around on a horse using a bow, but it was probably not a "ninja" traditon until much later.

Oh, and just as a reminder to everyone, I challenged Sojobow to back up his attack on my credibility when he posted this,

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.

And as we can all see, he has not posted the proof he claimed he could so far.

:-partyon:

"Frank Dux is using his dojo to molest students."

That got a giggle out of me Don lol.

I speak some Indonesian and very little Japanese, but some! So does these together count as a full second language?....no?...a slight drum roll?

Oh and just out of curiosity, That post Sojobow posted regarding the Koga Ryu and the "53 Families"...How good is that as a reliable source of historical information? Is it of any value Don? i cant remember whether you listed it as a reference to your "Koga Ryu" essay, just wondering of its value.

thanks
-andrew

I speak some Indonesian and very little Japanese, but some! So does these together count as a full second language?....no?...a slight drum roll?
thanks
-andrewthats funny! :rofl: i will give you 5 claps, but you are no black belt grrasshapa!
peace

Now even Hatsumi is lying.

Ah, personal attacks against a respected martial arts figure who isn't even here to defend himself. Nice. Good to know Dux keeps such scrupulous company for students. :rolleyes:

To note, Hatsumi-soke is, in fact, not lying. In the parts of Essence of Ninjutsu where he gives histories of the Iga ryu and Koga ryu, he always provides qualifiers such as "according to the documents of [...]" or "some insist that this is the origin of [...]". In no way does he posture them as unquestionable historical fact. He is very simply recounting the orally transmitted stories concerning the founding of these groups (which probably weren't technical "ryuha" anyway), which were later --- much later --- put down on makimono.

At every step of the way, he discusses them as if they are legends and rumors --- which may be true, or may not be true.

Gave you contact info. Try asking them for the proof and thereby bypassing me.

This is the third time I am asking you to stop lying, sojobow.

Incidentally, haven't seen you show us anything other than these long, drawn-out, critiques on subjects no one is even discussing.

If by "long, drawn-out" you mean "descriptive, comprehensive", then sure. I am very simply pointing out the logical flimsiness of your position --- a position, which I might add, you have yet to defend effectively. All you have done is mount speculations and evasive diversions.

It is interesting that you claim these are "subjects" that no one is discussing --- must'a fooled me, Don, Kizaru, and company.

But, I think I've figured it out. Web documents like the one I pasted above are compiled by, thus far, Judans and other ranking dans in your - note my - traditional war art.

To note, a person's rank has absolutely nothing to do with their knowledge of history.

Then, they - like Carlsson, Hatsummi S. - are all accused of sojobow's digressions even up to their own Soke. Then one wonders why?

Gee. More lies and diversions. Surprise, surprise.

At no point did anyone here but yourself accuse Mr. Carlsson and Hatsumi-soke of any "digressions". The texts you reference are recountings of oral stories. Nothing more, nothing less.

The only digressions being performed here are by you, and your fanatically-driven attempts to pass off oral tradition as "history".

Don Roley wrote an essay on Koga Ryu and his essay, compared to Carlsson's, don't match and this "modern" sections keeps referring to someone other than Roley.

There is a big difference between the two. Mr. Carlsson was recounting the Koga-shu's oral history. Mr. Roley was recounting documented history (drawing upon many noted ninjutsu historians as sources). They really weren't even about the same thing.

Then, heretic888 comes to the rescue with God-knows-what-he-just-said. What did your mouth just say?

Obviously something you aren't intelligent enough to comprehend. Of course, anyone that has taken a basic Critical Thinking class would recognize the standard critiques and analyses I am providing.

Things are starting to illuminatate other motives.

The only motives being "illuminated" here are yours.

I'm just looking for these Hachi Tengu. But, I understand.

Tell yah what. I'll bite.

In the book I mentioned before, Hatsumi-soke does make reference to eight prominent families within the Koga tradition(s). Of course, they are referred to specifically as the "Strong Eight". Also, Hatsumi makes it very clear that they rose to power after the 1480's.

So... no "tengu", no 11th century, and no "sohei". But, you've got the number 8 right. But, then again, this is all still just oral history...

If I come up with anything resembling proof that the Hachi Tengu ever existed and was established prior to the 15th Century - in this case the 10th Century - not only are your whatevertheywere wrong, but also, Roley's "Koga Ryu" essay is trash.

An analysis like that demonstrates that you do not possess a basic understanding of academic criticism. If aspects of a particular work are later debunked, this does not make the work in question "trash".

Yes, the wonders of education. You should try it sometime.

*chuckle* Laterz all.

At best, you can say that Hatsumi has laid out the traditions that would eventually evolve into what we know of as ninja after the adoption of the curved blade.

Let me give you an example. One of the oral traditons we follow is that of the Togakure ryu. It is said to have been started by Nishina Daisuke. Nishina is an established figure who was a high ranked retainer of Kiso no Yoshinaka. When Yoshinaka was defeated, Ninshina fled to Iga and is thought of as the first soke of the Togakure ryu. This was the 12th century and Nishina would have used a tachi and not a chokuto, and even that would have been a secondary weapon to the bow.

Now, did Nishina act like a ninja? Nope. You cannot find a single reference of him sneaking around or gathering information. (Running for his life- yes.) I can believe that he passed along some skills to his family, adopted or real. I have seen the way Japanese can keep family traditions alive and I believe that when you make a fall in status from samurai to farmer you would be eager to let your kids know that your family was not always like this.

But for centuries, where would be the use of disguise, espionage, entering enemy territory to recruit agents, etc that make up what we know the ninja to be? If there were bandits in the Iga area, maybe the descendents of Ninshina would have snuck up on them in their camp and attacked, or defended them when the raided. But these are acts that foot soldiers would be familiar with and not exclusive to ninja.

Again, no ninja bands running around. No one serving the role we call "ninja" can be verified until the late 15th century. I believe that the Togakure tradition has lessons passed down in some form from the 12th century, but the knowledge was not trapped in amber and evolved to fit the needs of the area and time. (Heck- Hatsumi has a book out on using a pistol- so the evolution continues.) So there was the Togakure tradition as far back as Nishna when he was running around on a horse using a bow, but it was probably not a "ninja" traditon until much later.

Very well said, Mr. Roley. Color me impressed. :asian: :asian:

As a side note (and yes I mentioned this beforehand), I have been told that Togakure ryu was originally Togakure ryu Happo Hiken and not Togakure ryu Ninjutsu. This would also paint the picture that the "ninjutsu" aspect of the tradition was not developed/adopted until later on in its history.

Well, that's what I've been told anyway. :uhyeah:

Oh and just out of curiosity, That post Sojobow posted regarding the Koga Ryu and the "53 Families"...How good is that as a reliable source of historical information? Is it of any value Don? i cant remember whether you listed it as a reference to your "Koga Ryu" essay, just wondering of its value.

Well, I've come across mention of the "53 families of Koga", along with the "45 families of Iga", in a couple of different places. Doesn't necessarily mean its historically accurate, mind you, as it may be allegorical of something else or just plain exaggerations.

Laterz all.

Ah, personal attacks against a respected martial arts figure who isn't even here to defend himself. Nice. Good to know Dux keeps such scrupulous company for students. :rolleyes:

To note, Hatsumi-soke is, in fact, not lying. In the parts of Essence of Ninjutsu where he gives histories of the Iga ryu and Koga ryu, he always provides qualifiers such as "according to the documents of [...]" or "some insist that this is the origin of [...]". In no way does he posture them as unquestionable historical fact. He is very simply recounting the orally transmitted stories concerning the founding of these groups (which probably weren't technical "ryuha" anyway), which were later --- much later --- put down on makimono. .My bad, there should have been a question mark ending the sentence: "Now even Hatsumi is lying?" Even though, it still works with the period.. The remainder of both post really aren't relevant much less true but I do like the way you keep ending them with your little qualifiers like your: "but what do I knows etc."

Point is, he, in fact does. And, with all due respect, I don't hold him as the single, ultimate historian of the fighting magicians. I simply bring up the point that a few of you don't seem to take the word of your own Soke as "proof" when confronted with his own words.

Darn, now I forgot the subject of the thread. Write shorter posts please! We all see that you know some Japanese terms and am impressed. Don't have to just keep blasting us with them. This is an English Only section.

Point is, he, in fact does. And, with all due respect, I don't hold him as the single, ultimate historian of the fighting magicians. I simply bring up the point that a few of you don't seem to take the word of your own Soke as "proof" when confronted with his own words.

Its good to see that you completely ignored all the points I made that debunk this baseless claim. The only one lying here is you.

To note, what I cited in Essence of Ninjutsu is not "the word" of Soke, but his own recounting of the oral histories of Iga ryu and Koga ryu. In no way are they presented as historical facts. But this, again, seems to be the major issue you have the conceptual inability to grasp --- that oral "history" is not documented fact.

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you). :rolleyes:

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you). :rolleyes:

Does that really surprise anybody ?

Kinda funny how this keeps coming back to the same thing (i.e., your inability to critically analyze what other people tell you). :rolleyes:

Should that not be "failure to" instead of "inability to"?

True, Sojobow has no knowledge or experience in the matter of ninjutsu. Nor has he shown a great ability to reason and make logical judgements. But it may not be that he can't understand, he is just trying to run an agenda.

After all, he has not backed up his little threat to post pictures that would damage my credibility when he said this,

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.


So it is obvious he lies and is trying to destroy the reputation of others.

After all, he has not backed up his little threat to post pictures that would damage my credibility when he said this,


What photos is he referring to ? I tried looking for that, but all he says in this thread is

Example, I've seen footage of awards being presented "in Japan" and presented by Japanese individuals and organizations to individuals you claim have no ties to Japan. So one wonders, why would Japanese present these ranks and awards to Bujinkan designated frauds? Not important to me so I need no further explanations.

Of course this isn't the first time that sojobobo says he has some information but when asked about it, he either claims that he has already answered it or just ignores the questions totally.

That's it TimoS.
In the first post he said "footage" and in the second he said "photos."

But you have called it very well. He is trying to ignore the fact that he said he could present something, and when called on it could not. But, it kind of shows that he is an "Agenda Troll", here not to deal honestly in the sharing of information, but to promote his own agenda and tear down those that stand in his way. In this case, every last person or tradition that exists in Japan because they all contridict what his teacher (Frank Dux the noted fraud) says.

Expect Sojobow to try to argue some point in this post without dealing with the "proof" he said he could post a link to. Maybe he will ignore this post all together. The important thing is he tried to tear down someone and will never, ever be able to post the proof he said he could. Everyone needs to keep that in mind when they read his posts. Always look for his agenda.

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.
My suggestion would be to find yourself a good book, or maybe a PS2, so you have something to do in the interim... :)

Jeff

My suggestion would be to find yourself a good book, or maybe a PS2, so you have something to do in the interim... :)

Jeffa good long book. i recommend shogun or maybe a role playing video game.:lol: (j/k) man i crack myself up!;)

So, definately not the "Wit and Wisdom of GW Bush" or John Kerrys "My War Years" huh? :rofl: Ok, I'll get "How to Win the Election" By Ralph Nader.

:D

So, definately not the "Wit and Wisdom of GW Bush" or John Kerrys "My War Years" huh? :rofl: Ok, I'll get "How to Win the Election" By Ralph Nader.

:Dthat will work! hee hee! :rofl: try the whole bible. lots of books and chapters under one cover.;)
peace

Actually, I'm still waiting on him to reply to Besters question concerning evolution of the ninja myself.Actually, I've read the thread 4 or 5 times and couldn't figure out what was being asked or implied. confused, so I just left well enough alone. If you can filter the thread and present the question in simplicity, maybe I can answer. Then, maybe not.

Actually, I've read the thread 4 or 5 times and couldn't figure out what was being asked or implied. confused, so I just left well enough alone. If you can filter the thread and present the question in simplicity, maybe I can answer. Then, maybe not.i have to admit i don't remember what the question was exactly.:idunno:

I 'think' the question being asked is if there is a relationship between the origins of the original ninja families and the Emishi. I could be wrong though as it does seem a bit 'left field to me.

I 'think' the question being asked is if there is a relationship between the origins of the original ninja families and the Emishi. I could be wrong though as it does seem a bit 'left field to me.Are you serious??? If so, I'll look again as you seem to be a fair person. Also, Seig locked the Kooga Ryu thread. I don't understand why but if Kizaru or myself were doing something wrong, let me know and it will discontinue. thanx. sojo

Kaiths right. RIF. You have the wild theories on origins.
So, there is one that may help, or hurt you. I honestly don't know which.
You mentioned a Chinese connection I believe, so, there is a reference point. I don't know the dates, but some information may be of assistance.

Sometimes, on needs the DNA, othertimes, the memory is enough.

Bester,
You are asking for amusement sake, correct? There is no way we can take the theories by Sojobow seriously. Your humorous thread on the origins of ninja made more sense.

Me, I am still waiting for him to fill his promise he made to post the pictures if I said the event did not take place. Becasue they did not and he lied about it.

Here's a better idea: try not engaging in faulty logic to defend your historical fantasies.

Also, even if we disregard the lack of primary evidence for a moment, your position still falls prey to the wealth of correlative counterevidence --- such as, for example, that Japan did not experience any period of great warfare since the feuds of the North and South Emperors (early-to-mid 1300's) until the time of the Onin no Ran (mid-to-late 1400's). This is a +100 year stretch of relative peace, thus precluding the necessity for large commando forces whatsoever.

Thus, sojobow, your position is logically weak on two fronts: 1) its lack of primary evidence to support it, and 2) its inability to account for the wealth of established counterevidence that refutes it.
You do know that most of what you presented in the abovementioned post is incorrect, do you not? Sounds good, pretty well written, showed your inclination to utilize those "Japanese terms" but, the text is incorrect. But that's not the point. Seems I just keep finding outside sources that agree with my "fanticies." You didn't like the post noting Hatsumi Sensei as a one who added to the conversations, well, here is another of another of another:

Just connect the dots:

http://www.hikyaku.com/cgi-bin/mainword?histg+Heian_period+dico/hisgifg

Heian period

alternative words: Heianjidai, Heian reign, Heian jidai, Heian era, Heanjidai, Hean period, Hean jidai
keywords: epoch
related topics: Genji monogatari, Kokinwakashu, Heishi, Taira no Kiyomori, Genji, Fujiwara family, Heiankyo, Shoen, Taira no Masakado
related web sites: http://homepage1.nifty.com/shiun-sai/, http://www2s.biglobe.ne.jp/~yae-sou/, http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~heian/
explanation: It designates the long period which spans from 794 when Kyoto became Japanese capital until 1192 when the political center of Japan was shifted to Kamakura. The first half period is rather a prolongation of Nara period and Kyoto's aristocrats were controlling still the political power, while an instability had appeared in the second half period with an emergence of samurai clans who not only took gradually the power from the former but fought one against another (battle between Heishi and Genji).
Note numerous Wars before, during and after.

Yamabushi

alternative words: Yama-bushi, Yama bushi
keywords: ninja, religion
related topics: Shugendo, Heian period, Ninja
explanation: Literally those who sleep in mountains, they belong to Shugendo order which consists to practice austerities in mountains in order to get magic power. They are easily recognizable by their dress: a small black cap (tokin), a checkered kimono (suzukake), a Buddhist rosary (nenju), a conch-shell trumpet (horagai), a staff with rings (shakujo). During middle ages, Yamabushi became one of ninja's preferred disguise methods because it allowed them to move freely without provoking any suspicion.
Ninja's? during the Heian period? Not again!!!!!

Ninjutsu

alternative words: Ninjutu, Ninjitsu, Ninjitu, Shinobi, Ninpo, Ninpou
keywords: martial art, ninja
related topics: Ninja, Sengoku period, Heian period, Onmyodo
related web sites: http://www.y-tec.com/ninja/index2.html, http://www.mpd.co.jp/net/ninja/japanese/menu.html
explanation: One of the Japanese martial arts. Originated from Onmyodo of Heian period, it had been associated with a magic like prestidigitation or hypnoses and the medical knowledge. With a development of samurai society, more violent and combative technique had been introduced. During a civil war period of the 16th century (Sengoku period), the specialists of those arts (Ninja) had been highly appreciated and the famous schools of Ninjutsu like Koga and Iga had been prosperous.

Onmyodo

alternative words: Onmyo-do, Onmyo do, Onmyoudo, Onmyou-do, Onmyou do
keywords: china, mystery, ninja, philosophy, religion
related topics: In-yo go-gyo setsu, Abe no Seimei, Heian period, Ninjutsu, Oni, Fusui
related web sites: http://www.bekkoame.ne.jp/~skydog/, http://www.people.or.jp/~seimei/
explanation: Astrology of Chinese origin. It interprets every human activity and fate with an astrology based on Inyo gogyo setsu It had been introduced into Japan in the 7th century by Buddhist priests, but unable to build complex astrological apparatus, only the divination branch had known a significant development. After Heian period, it has been degenerated to simple popular superstitions. Abeno Seimei (921-1005) is the most famous specialist of this discipline.
(Lets not get into Abeno Seimei)

Also, you should study more on the subject of oral transmissions in regards to the Ninja. It is written, in all of Japan, that much of the actual knowledge of the Ninja "shall be passed only orally from father to son or teacher to student." Thus, in the war arts of the Ninja, the most important elements shall not be passed on any other way than oral transmission.

If you are in Japan, setting at a computer, is not this information in Japan?" You need to open your eyes and give me a break and consider what it is we are discussing here and stop trying to impress us/me with your yolomoto gibberish. The Ninja did write maps, but not much else.

Just trying to trap you into saying that it didn't happen so I could paste in the pictures. More trouble though as the photos are on the web, and have been for years, and most are in English and not Japanese. Congratulations, ya didn't fall for the trap.


Ok, enough dancing around. Time for a decision and a precedent being set.

The question is do the owners and moderators want to set the precedent that someone can make comments that degrade another's reputation and then be able to refuse to back up those accusations when challenged.

Now, if the moderators do not want that, then it seems that Sojobow should be forced to back up his comment that he could post certain pictures that would contridict what I say, thus damaging my reputation. If he can not, then he should be punished in some way- preferably by banishment.

If the moderators and owners say it is acceptable on martialtalk.com for someone to say they could prove something that would damage another's reputation, but will not, then a precedent will be set and others will probably follow. Do they want that?

I think a choice and a precedent must be made right here and now. Make Sojobow prove his claim and post the pictures, or let it be known that people do not have to back up the damaging comments they make about others.

2 things:

1:
Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.

I suggest all those involved review the rules.


2: If people are going to continue to debate history, I strongly suggest revising their writing styles to conform to college term paper standards. That means, citing your sources, and being pretty damn complete about it.

In simple english - make a claim, back it up. If you don't wish to do so, do not make that claim.

I do trust that is clear enough?

Further: the request for "Banishment" publically does not seem like the best forum for discussing another member. I feel as one of the staff at MT, that this should be discussed via email or PM with the Administrators, rather than airing such dirty laundry in public.

-Michael
MT SMod

I also feel that discussions concerning "banishment" should be conducted privately...

Does that really surprise anybody ?

Nope, not really.

Should that not be "failure to" instead of "inability to"?

True, Sojobow has no knowledge or experience in the matter of ninjutsu. Nor has he shown a great ability to reason and make logical judgements. But it may not be that he can't understand, he is just trying to run an agenda.

*nods* You've got a point there, Mr. Roley. Such speculations are further supported by how he constantly brings up unrelated subjects (such as "define a ninja!") on numerous threads. It gets quite annoying.

You do know that most of what you presented in the abovementioned post is incorrect, do you not? Sounds good, pretty well written, showed your inclination to utilize those "Japanese terms" but, the text is incorrect.

I submit, sojobow, that you are a bold-faced liar (not a radical accusation at this point). I challenge you to prove any of the claim you just made with reputable sources.

But that's not the point. Seems I just keep finding outside sources that agree with my "fanticies."

A word of advice: online Japanese dictionaries does not constitute a reputable "outside source".

You didn't like the post noting Hatsumi Sensei as a one who added to the conversations

No. I much didn't like you misquoting Hatsumi-soke to validate your delusions, nor did I like you calling him a liar on a later post. Of course, yet again, all this has to do with your own shortcomings --- not Hatsumi's.

Note numerous Wars before, during and after [the Heian period].

Gee, way to misinterpret what was actually said. Again.

What I actually said before was that, after the feuds between the North and South courts in the 14th century, Japan saw a relatively long stretch of peace (until the Onin no Ran in the mid-15th century). In no way did I say there were no wars "before, during, and after" the Heian Period.

The point being that, during that stretch of peace and stability, there would have been no need for groups like the Iga-gumi and Koga-gumi. It would be quite logical, on the other hand, that the warriors of Iga and Koga organized themselves into mercenary guerilla groups in reaction to the rather bloody Onin no Ran (to protect the interests of their regions).

During middle ages, Yamabushi became one of ninja's preferred disguise methods because it allowed them to move freely without provoking any suspicion.
Ninja's? during the Heian period? Not again!!!!!

I suggest re-reading your own sources, sojobow. The Heian period was not during "the middle ages".

Originated from Onmyodo of Heian period

Ugh... again, Onmyodo is the tradition listed as coming from the Heian period (which is not debated). Not ninjutsu.

Astrology of Chinese origin.

Once again, Chinese elements influenced a lot of Japanese traditions --- including their written language. That does not make them "Chinese".

Also, you should study more on the subject of oral transmissions in regards to the Ninja. It is written, in all of Japan, that much of the actual knowledge of the Ninja "shall be passed only orally from father to son or teacher to student." Thus, in the war arts of the Ninja, the most important elements shall not be passed on any other way than oral transmission.

Once again, a non-argument. This is no way proves or supports anything you have claimed, which is that the Koga "ninja" were militarily active prior to the 1400's.

This isn't a matter of orally transmitted stories being accurate or not --- but of an absolute lack of evidence within documented history itself. Its futile to claim that the Koga-gumi were organized into these commando groups, involved in Japan's wars, when not only is there no proof of this --- but there weren't even any major wars in the period you claim they were involved in!

If you are in Japan, setting at a computer, is not this information in Japan?"

Apparently not.

You need to open your eyes and give me a break and consider what it is we are discussing here and stop trying to impress us/me with your yolomoto gibberish.

Notice, sojobow, how you have not once utilized Japanese sources to vindicate your arguments. Your sources are always American and/or English, always online, and sometimes don't even say what you claim they said.

The Ninja did write maps, but not much else.

Yet again, this has nothing to do with what the "ninja" did or did not write. It has to do with no one else noticing them until the late-1400's.

Until you start providing reputable sources and evidence to back up your rather dubious claims, sojobow, expect to be treated like an agenda troll.

Laterz.

Ok, we are all in agreement that Sojobow started this thread to push his agenda and distort the truth. Like many other threads he has started or participated in, it has served no purpose other than attracting lightning bolts and flames. No one is taking Sojobow seriously anymore. He is gone. So can we shut down the freaking thread already?!?!?!?

So can we shut down the freaking thread already?!?!?!?
Nope, I think we need one more from "Bester" first....

Heh, sorry about that, Don. :asian:

I've been "out of the loop" for the past couple of days --- y'know, Hurricane Jeanne and all --- and I was unaware of sojobow being suspended, or kizaru's hilarious refutation of his silly claims in another thread (nice one, kizaru).

It may be fun to just keep the thread open, though. Y'know, for kicks.

Laterz. :)

i say this thread gets locked. the guy/gal mentioned(not ment as a put down, but who knows for sure) is not here, and this thread serves no real purpose.

peace