24 technique vs 16 Technique Parker Kenpo

[brianhunter]

I am a little curious at to the history and reason behind some systems going to the 16 tech per belt system as opposed to the 24 per belt. I know the IKKA still promotes the 24, while I believe Brian Duffy does the 16 as well as Mr. C and the IKKO. Tom Kelly also does a 16 but it is a little different then the others I have seen...i.e. he requires short 2 for promotion to orange instead of long 1.
Any comments, feelings, or history is welcome!!!

[brianhunter]

Mr. C if your out there I would greatly appreciate your input on this one!!
:confused:

[Rainman]

The number is inconsequential. The order of that number is relevent. It is also imperative that basics are thoroughly explored otherwise the teks will lose some effectiveness incrementally due to level of efficiency.

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

Bryan Hawkins' United Kenpo Systems also uses the 16 Technique charts developed by Mr. Duffy. I was one of Mr. Duffy's senior students at the time. He used the Web of knowledge to distribute techniques more evenly through 1st Black, instead of 2nd Brown starting "Black Belt extensions". This also allowed for more even distribution of not just the techniques, but the sets, forms, and freestyle techniques through Black.

It took a very long time, between Yellow Belt and Orange Belt. I started before we had Yellow, but in terms of student retention, that is where we, and Kenpo in general, lost students. You could go around the corner to Joe's Generic Karate Store or Tom's Take-One's-Dough school and have a Brown belt by the time some of our guys got to Orange or Purple. Of course that made it sorta unfair at tournaments as we got to help ourselves to the trophies. (Tournaments being another of Mr. Duffy's fortes at the time.)

The amount of material per belt chart was much more managable for lower belt students. Then increased to 20 techniques per chart for Brown and 1st Black. You got the same place, sometimes in the same time, but it felt better to the students to be able to progress quicker, is how I perceived it.

Another piece of this was "Black Belt Extensions at Black Belt". Some of the extensions were very long ... but fun, and this distinguished the Black Belt club from the Brown Belt brotherhood. No insult to any Brown Belt intended ... we have all been there, in my case a year between each Brown was the requirement, along with teaching hours and tournaments, 5 per belt.

Also the logical layout of the techniques using the Web of Knowledge was a nice breakdown of techniques by type of attack. It ensured you had the techniques when you were learning the forms ... not something I had in the 24 technique charts I came up under, nor in the Chinese Kenpo charts I did prior to that.

Dennis Conatser or Brian Duffy can give you the real deal speil, but that is how I remember it. Along with Mr. Parker's liking it and allowing us to implement it, then other schools following suite. If I err in any of this, I apologize in advance. This is how I remember it, but I was not developing anything - mostly just working on 2nd Black material with Mr. Duffy and Howard Silva during this period.

Yours in Kenpo,
-Michael Billings
UKS - Texas

[brianhunter]

that makes alot of sense........I read once where Mr. Duffy had presented it to Mr. Parker and he really liked it but didnt get the work out to all the schools

[Klondike93]

At the kenpo school I'm going to the techniques are arranged so that when you learn one the next one is the what if or sister to the previous one.

Example: Having Glancing Salute follow Triggered Salute- one is a straight push the other a cross push.

My instructor thinks that as long as all the techniques are learned by black belt why not try it in this kind of order.


:asian:

[Rainman]

It sounds like the WOK is still followed even by grouping pushes together. It is not the best when the order is random. There is a specifity involved with easy to difficult teks.

:asian:

[WilliamTLear]

I have to say that Mr. Billings hit the nail on the head when he wrote his post supporting the 16 technique system. I know Mr. Conatser personally and his version of the story is right on par with Mr. Billings account. Ed Parker Jr. has also backed up this accounting of history behind the evolution of the 24 technique system to the 16 technique system.

One of the added benefits that I have seen in studios that utilize this system is not only the retention of students, but also the retention of information by those students. I have travelled to many places on my Kenpo Journey, and quality is always more important that quantity. Besides you learn all the base techniques in the 16 system before black belt anyway (let the black belts struggle with the extensions! **Laughing**

Take Care,
Billy Lear :asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Michaels post is 99 percent on target. Lear backs it up. Brian (my good friend) had under taken the task of lowering the number of techniques required (since both of us had studios for over 20 years each - Brian is still going almost 30!) so that our students in our studios could benefit more from a lower technique load...... this was also being asked of Mr. Parker from others around the country as well.

Brian did a sample curriculum ...... Mr. Parker tweaked it... (I was a part of that) and he liked it. We were in process of testing it and if Mr. Parker would not have passed so suddenly...... I believe he would have turned it out to the entire association by 1992.

It is a good curriculum and well set up.

:Asian:

[brianhunter]

Thanks Mr. C. Im impressed about how much expertice and knowledge is on this board for free LOL

[Goldendragon7]

I only hope to be able to retain a bit of what I read and learn....:asian:

[Klondike93]

I only hope to be able to retain a bit of what I read and learn

Sheesh... you've probably forgot more than the rest of us combined will ever know.

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I can't remember........ :rofl:

:asian:

[Michael Billings]

I can't remember remembering?

[WilliamTLear]

I'm trying to remember, but I forgot what I was supposed to remember.

:confused:

[GouRonin]

Did you guys start drinking without me?
:eek:

[Ronin]

Sadly, I would be willing to bet that the majority of the people who argue about the 24-16 technique debate will never study long enough for it to make any difference. Most Students that are "interested in kenpo" sadly fade away once they approach adv. green or brown. Thefore only the hardcore guys are left and I dont think they care about what number of techniques they learn per belt. They are just happy to be in a quality martial arts system.

[GouRonin]

The name "Ronin" alone almost implies that the guy is intelligent.

Good post!

[Klondike93]

Originally posted by GouRonin

The name "Ronin" alone almost implies that the guy is intelligent.

Good post!

Or a complete nut like the Gou dog :D


:asian:

[Roland]

..last time I saw Mr. Planas, he said he liked the 16 count system! That was just this past easter weekend!
Must admit, I did not get a chance to ask him why, but hey, this was without anyone pressing him. I am not even sure why it came up, I do not think we were even debating it. He just turned to us, said he liked the 16, I said,"What?", and he said, "Yeah, I think it works well!"

Who knew?

:eek:

[Nightingale]

my instructor doesn't teach all the techniques. We learn 100 of them, rather than all 150 or so...

25 techniques for Orange (we don't have a yellow belt)
25 techniques for Purple
25 techniques for Blue
25 techniques for Green

Brown belt is mainly a teaching belt to reinforce what we've learned so far, the philosophy being that you don't truly understand something until you can teach it to someone else. It is a time where your knowledge really starts to mature and you're really required to understand the "why" of things rather than just the "how". We try to emphasize quality of techniques over quantity. The rest of the 50 techniques are either picked up as a brown belt from participating in the black and brown belt level class, or they're learned after black belt. We do learn the whole system, we're just not required to do it before black belt.

I am finding that not having any additional required techniques to learn at brown belt is very, very helpful to me. (although I have picked up some of the ones that I have to know after black) It gives me the opportunity to take another look at the techniques I learned several years ago through teaching them to other students. It makes me really analyze in my mind how and why these work.

I know a lot of people think that you should teach the entire system before black, and what my teacher does isn't my decision, but my reasoning is that if you take enough time to teach the how and the why of kenpo, fifty techniques won't make a huge difference, considering that techniques are only ideas from which to draw on, and in the street, you never have the perfect technique situation. you have to improvise, and if you know how and why kenpo works, you are capable of improvising, and that ability may save your life.

[Ronin]

The online ronins rule martialtalk!!!!

[Ronin]

Klondike? Is that a lesbian eskimo?

[Klondike93]

Well lets see, I like women so that makes me a lesbian, but I don't care for the cold so I'm not an eskimo.

So the answer is no, just a lesbian (no offense to any is ment).



:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

Boooo hissssss:mad: :eek: :(

[Ronin]

I shall tone myself down master...........(bowing retreating out of the room)

[Goldendragon7]

Leave those nice "special" ladies to me.

:rofl:

[tunetigress]

Oh yeah, GD? And just what would YOU do with them anyways??? ROFLMAO!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[Goldendragon7]

putting me on the spot!! Why, I'd call you... and ask for advice !!!what else!:rofl:
:asian:

[tunetigress]

Jeesh GD! Why on earth would you wanna ask my advice on the handling of Lesbians anyways?? I have absolutely NO experience in that department! I am not hiding in 'that' kind of Clawset, in case you didn't know! LMAO!! :rolleyes:

[Sigung86]

Hi Tunetigress!

I think about women all the time, tall, short, thick, thin, blonde, brunette, redhead, black hair, white, yellow, red and all colors and tones in-between.... I guess that makes me a non-clawset lesbian!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Dan

[KenpoTess]

In our dojo Sensei Seig has instituted the 24 techniques. He's broken them down to our belt system.
10 yellow techniques are our Red and black stripe Techs.(we don't have a yellow belt in our system)
12 for Orange belt
12 Orange Stripe
12 Green Belt
12 Green Stripe
12 Purple
12 Purple Stripe
so on and so on.. by the time we get to Brown it works out to 24 each Brown level to Black.

There's alot of information to learn and retain. We have technique night 2x week and a day of reviewing. Another day is sparring and a day of either Jiu-jitsu or Sensei's choice.

I find as an instructor this method of teaching is easier for me then the previous - learn a few techniques per night.. go onto others.. and well I would forget them without knowing a name or repetively doing it.

Our students know what is expected of them for their test, the smart ones bring a notebook to class and sit down afterwards writing them down and work on them at home after learning them in class.
It's working well for us :)

In the Martial Arts Spirit

Tess

[Goldendragon7]

Repetition is the key to memorization which is a step towards internalization, which leads to realization, then execution.

:asian:

[KenpoTess]

Speaking of Execution... Gee that Leap of Death has me wondering.. *snickers.. sorry couldn't help it.. ~!!

[Goldendragon7]

I do go by that name sometimes........

"The Executioner" I won't go into why.:hammer:

:asian:

[meni]

in our school ...

10 for yello
15 for evrey belt abouve (9)
and you need to knwo the forms and statnce for each belt
in additon the system is bilt now on three catgarios
beggnier 40 tec
intermedatd 45
adavnced 45
and so on and so forth
one need to know 15 tec. in order to advence
each week there is only one new tec.
so biscally you need 15 week plus practic time as the minmumm of a test!


meni

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

I do go by that name sometimes........

"The Executioner" I won't go into why.:hammer:

:asian:

For $1.85 in small denomination, unmarked bills, I, too, will keep the secret! :boing1:

Dan

[KenpoTess]

I'll trade ya my smelly ole foot gear for your 1.85 in unmarked bills.. errr.. never mind.. hahhaa.. Ok Dennis.. Do tell.. The world wants to know.. :)

[Goldendragon7]

(actually I forgot why):rofl:

:asian:

[Sigung86]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

(actually I forgot why):rofl:

:asian:

Okay Tess!!! I give! You've beat it out of me ... pant... pant...gulp!... Gasp!

It was because of ... because of ... because ....
be ......... AAAIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!! Thump and a rollover unconscious... :o


Dan Fa....:angel:

[Seig]

"Darth Dragon, release him...."
DD: "As you wish..."

[cdhall]

I guess the poll was recently added because there has not been a post here for months.

And I know this point was argued to death on another thread several months ago as well.

But here is a link to the "Original" 16 Technique Curriculum with a bit of history, all straight from Mr. Duffy (except where I may have made a typo) and very much in accordance with the previous posts by Mr. Billings and Mr. Conatser (as you might expect):
http://www.akfkenpo.com/curriculum/index.html

[brianhunter]

Hey Doug,
Just to let you know the poll was there when the thread started :0)

[cdhall]

I was just wondering, because it was showing up as a recent post/thread but the most recent post was a long time ago.

I didn't think you could add a Poll later. Maybe it is a glitch from the Crash?
Anyway, there is a LONG discussion about the curriculum somewhere on here. Or there was. Kirk was involved, he may remember. :asian:

[arnisador]

A new vote in a poll will be registered as a new post in the main forum listing. It's a bit misleading.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Goldendragon7]

this is an "old" string!! look at the dates..... who raised this from the dead....

:rofl:

[Seig]

It's probably a good one to keep alive, it will prevent the same topic from being rehashed.

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
this is an "old" string!! look at the dates..... who raised this from the dead....

Someone cast a new vote apparently! We can close the poll if people wish (I think!).

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Michael Billings]

... please.

[brianhunter]

yes pleeaasseee close it LOL cant believe I asked that shheeessshhh

[arnisador]

The poll is closed, but the thread is open. People can post replies but cannot vote.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

[Maltair]

Hate to bring this topic back up but was just doing some research. My instructor is thinking about changing to 16. Anyway, was looking for the other thread that was mentioned in this one and can't find it. Can I get a little help please.

[Michael Billings]

This info is all over the place, hidden in different threads, here is one:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9341&highlight=Technique

You can get a bit of a history from my Techniques page:

http://kenpo-texas.com/techref.html

and see the home page of the man who created the 16 Tech curriculuum as is commonly used now.

http://www.akfkenpo.com/hqstudio/mrduffy.html

-Michael

[Maltair]

Thank You good sir :asian:

[GAB]

Maltair,

In my opinion if you go to Michael Billings webpage, you will be rewarded with
some of the best information avaliable on the web regarding what is Kempo/Kenpo.

The more you read it the more you respect the time and energy, that went into the dedication and thought that has been presented. It is definitely a sticker.

Regards,Gary

[DoxN4cer]

I think that the number of techniques is not nearly as relavent whether or not the fundamental concepts that make it all work are still there. If there were five techniques per belt, what would it matter as lonf as the concepts were technically and tactically sound?

On the other hand, there are instructors out there that "throw out" certain things that they personally can't do properly or just don't understand. That's just straight up bastardizing the art.

Tim Kashino

[GAB]

Hi all,

I feel the amount of techs are not as important ( has been said many times) as the overall concept of the art.

We seem to be in a time of change. But, if you will look back (the more we are able to do), with the computer and new information, knowledge that is put forth daily. We see that the same turmoil has been going on for decades.

The newer, better techs and arts etc. The same can be said about alot of the various sports and the players.

Same story, different time zone.

We are just privy to the instant story or discussion.

Katas are the basic building blocks of all the arts, call them dances,forms, whatever. That is the way the arts have been saved and handed down for a long time. Time proven. FMA now calls it the flow?

My Thought is the tech. is in the eye of the beholder, innovator, etc.
If you are not happy with the teaching move on. Enjoy it or go to another location and continue with your path.

Regards, Gary

[Flatlander]

FMA now calls it the flow?
No, this is an entirely different concept than kata, forms, or patterns.

[Touch Of Death]

No, this is an entirely different concept than kata, forms, or patterns.One would think.

[GAB]

Flatlander, Would you consider the drills and not the flow? Or the flow and not the drills?

I am editing after looking up information in books that I have, I think they will add something to my thoughts....

First... The Book (sock) Secrets of Chinese Karate By Ed Parker Chapter 19, set and forms.

Second... The Book, The Filipino Martial Arts as taught by Dan Inosanto, page 142, Flow.

Some say tomato and some say tomaaato.

Regards, Gary

[8253]

Im not sure about either one, we have 40 per ranking.

[BFoley]

When I was studying Kenpo about 20 years ago (Jay T. Will), we had 30 techniques per belt up until brown 1, then 42 for black 1.

Brian

[Flatlander]

Flatlander, Would you consider the drills and not the flow? Or the flow and not the drills?Not to derail the thread here, but just to clear up, forms are referred to as anyos. "Flow" is a concept that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike "form". Post a question in the FMA forums for greater detail.

[GAB]

Hi Flatlander,

OK

Regards, Gary

[DoxN4cer]

Not to derail the thread here, but just to clear up, forms are referred to as anyos. "Flow" is a concept that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike "form". Post a question in the FMA forums for greater detail.

Form is a component of flow, but is not the same thin as flow.

Hope that makes sense to people reading this, it sounds like a riddle.

Tim Kashino