Fresh Air.

[sojobow]

I salute and bow to the owners and moderators of this Forum for enabling those of us, not involved in pure tyranny, a place to discuss a viable worthwhile martial science. *Salute*

I also would like to start here, a discussion of the history of Ninjitsu. All thoughts should be welcomed as the truth has long since been confused. Lets start here: In General,

The Ch'un - Ch'iu Period of China's history began about 726 B.C. and ended right after the death of Confusus (about 480 B.C. eop). Approximately a century later, China went into a period sometimes called The Period of the Warring States. Out of pure necessity - having to do with states in constant War - what is today called Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu was born as a result of the necessity to win War.

Born in the areas once called Chi, Yen, Chu and Kou-Wu (among others Chinese states), this War Art spread (again, because of necessity to win at WAR) or blossumed to areas we call Mongolia, Korea, Eastern Russia, Japan and, somewhat later, into the Philipines.

To say that Ninjitsu is a Japanese Martial Art is somewhat purplexing as the Martial Art existed simultaneously in the abovementioned Countries at minimum. I would agree that the word "Ninjutsu" originated in Japan. However, the Martial Art itself existed, as stated, in other Countries at the same time.

Although the above is in generality only, as time and space would not allow a full expose' on the subject, there has been no time in Japanese history - after the Edo Period - when Ninjitsu has not been in use by the Japanese government. In periods when Japan was in it's "Closed Society," evidence shows that the Emperor sent out "Agents" into the outside world. Some of these "Agents" hired themselves out and never returned to Japan. Another name for these "Agent" is "Ninja." To say that Ninjitsu died out in or during any period in Japan or elsewhere in humanity - east or west, is to say that the relm of the Samurai was not based on Confusionism. (sp.l)

It would be better if we never express, to the outside world, the Art we practice.

Very basic. Lets have your thoughts as mine are a work-in-progress.

*Smoke*

[Genin Andrew]

Ok Sojobow,I dont know you so i assume you are a good guy and i dont want to start a war,so i will be as subtle and respectfull as possible with my response.

1. Do you believe anything you just posted?
2.Do you have any references ie. websites (preferred) or books that have a similiar explanation for that history of Ninjutsu? or did you just read a few books and establish that theory yourself?

two things i would like to add...
The ninja of JAPAN did have a 'Chinese' influence but then again so did the whole of Japan.The ninjutsu practitioners of ancient Japan were made up of SOME Chinese who DID flee the warring states and the aftermath in China. However what is this.....stuff about Korean Ninja and....what...Eatern Russian ninja!? hmmmm. Simply because a few rebels put on a mask,grab a sword and kill a few people doesn't make them a 'ninja'.

The reason most History (Japanese) states that the Ninja were formed,lived and operated in Japan was besides the obvious (that they DID) all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan. Unless you can lead me to a Russian Ninja museum or post some pictures of philopino ninja techniques then i refuse to take you or your theories seriously...

much respect
-andrew

[Enson]

Unless you can lead me to a Russian Ninja museum or post some pictures of philopino ninja techniques then i refuse to take you or your theories seriously...

much respect
-andrewi have to agree with that.

[sojobow]

Genin Andrew,

At least we do agree on a few points.
The purpose of the post was to hopefully begin a discussion on Ninjitsu history. We (or I) do appreciate your being respectful and hopefully, all responses will be respectful.

1. I believe everything in my post;
2. Yes, I do have references;

I have not reached the Rank whereby I am entrusted with the History, therefore, I have to search for mine own answers.

Lets look further into part of your post that seems interesting. You say "The ninja of JAPAN did have a 'Chinese' influence but then again so did the whole of Japan.The ninjutsu practitioners of ancient Japan were made up of SOME Chinese who DID flee the warring states and the aftermath in China. "

It seems that it is also possible that these "fleeing chinese" may have gone to other countries/regions than Japan. Seems your agrument is based upon the notion that these fleeing chinese only went to Japan. Some were also POWs.

Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?" Example, lets say I find a sword in Korea made by either Kan Chiang, Ci'ih Pi or Mo Yeh and another sword is found in Japan made by any one of these three individuals. How can you honor the Japanese sword and not the Korean's sword. Why is the sword used by the Khans the same as that used by some Ninjitsuist? Why is the Bow used by some Ninjitsuist the same as that used by Khan and later made famous by the Huns? Juxtapose them and see for yourself.

Lets say some of my references are people like Li Ch'uan, Tu Mu, Ho Yen-hsi. Lets say that its much easier to flee from China to Korea or Eastern Russia or Mongolia than it is to flee to Japan. You don't need a boat to go north. So how can you propose that these teachers ONLY went across the Sea of Japan? Some say "why," I say "why not."

Lets say that I personally believe that a Ninjitsuist is a specialist as described by Sun Tzu. May be poisons cause I can't fight a lick. May be sticks cause my God will not allow me to draw a sword (or any other blade for that matter); May be the Bow cause mom couldn't teach me to swing a sword. May be a 12 Guage shotgun cause the law won't allow me to own a 50 caliper machine gun. May be all I can do is infiltrate your house cause I'm a pretty good burgler. All are functions identified with the Ninjitsuist. If you only know the way of the stick, how can you critique the assassin (but both are equally important traits and very necessary when traveling in threes (3's))?

Item last; Note the following exerpt (On Warring States of China and not the Warring States of Japan which began much later).

" The political environment gave ample scope to the talents of self-styled experts in every field and particularly to professional strategist. Between 400 and 300 B.C. successive generations were decimated with methodical regularity and war became a 'fundamental occupation'. The pretence of conforming to the idyllic code of morality reputedly exemplified in the reigns of the Sage Kings had been since been abandoned. Diplomacy was based on bribery, fraud, and deceit. Espionage and intrigue flourished."

Could the above reveal a breeding ground for what may be called "Ninjitsu?"

Now, tell us your version of a history.

To Enson: Tell me why you "have to agree." Sometimes, silence is golden.

[Don Roley]

1. Do you believe anything you just posted?
2.Do you have any references ie. websites (preferred) or books that have a similiar explanation for that history of Ninjutsu? or did you just read a few books and establish that theory yourself?

Andrew,
Make note of whether Sojobow will post references or just say he has references and then attempt to pile things on higher and deeper. Throw enough terminology and untracable "facts" out and most people will think you know what you are talking about. The guys with real knowledge of the subject matter just laugh at his posts. But people who use sojobow's tactics seem to be pretty good at fooling those with no knowledge of the subject matter.

You should also take the time to read some of his past posts. Once you see the type of person he is, you may stop trying to deal with him in legitimate debates.

[Genin Andrew]

Don, thankyou for that little insight. I have had a read of some of Sojobow's past posts and you're responses and thats why when i read his post last night about Russian Ninja all i could think of was "oh i cant wait until Mr.Roley gets a load of that"

Now Sojobow, As Don said where are those links? Some of what you said did make sense but was far too general to the point where it could have meant pretty much anything. "Ninpo teachers teaching only their children?" In you're mind why are they "ninpo" teachers? What makes them different from other parents? what do they teach their children? and save me from the "oh its too secret to discuss on the internet escape routine"

Sure it would have been alot easier for fleeing Chinese to go to Korea but what makes them Ninja? Are you saying that any Chinese man, woman or child who has fled China and found refuge in another country is a Ninja?...*AHEM*.
What made a Chinese man a Ninpo practitioner was his affiliation with the Japanese people of the Iga and Koga regions.period.Not because he put his feet in Japanese soil (lol Korean or Russian or whatever) Some even followed/became wondering Yamabushi or mixed with the Shugenda. It was this affiliation and development/teaching in fighting styles and philosophies that made a Chinese man a Ninja.

"Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?"

Yes i DO unless you can show me otherwise...
Do you know of any ancient documents relating to the Ninja such as the Bansenshukai,Ninpiden and Shoninki existing or being found anywhere outside of Japan? If so please 'enlighten' me...So far you have avoided any detail on the Philopino,Russian and Korean Ninja so i ask again what makes these people Ninja? (in you're mind at least).

...I would really love to hear a little more on the EASTERN RUSSIAN NINJA specifically...

much respect
-andrew


Do you actually believe yourself when you propose that "all historical evidence,traditions and living proof was Japanese and found in Japan." Do you actually believe in absolutes beginning with the word "all?"

[sojobow]

Don't think you're being very honest. Common sense would indicate that there is no such thing as a Russian Ninja existing during the period of the Chinese Warring States as there existed no Country known as 'Russia existing at that particular time. With a Ninjitsuist being identifyed by the revealed spirit of his actions, boundaries have no moment in his existance. He is basically what is revealed in his actions which also include his inactions. How you constantly disregard my actual words and their meanings is evident as I can see easily your deceit. I see no use in continuing any conversation with you on this subject.

I will, however, participate with anyone that first post their own take on the history of Ninjitsuism. It seems perplexing that there is not a single post by anyone other than myself with a take on the subject but there are plenty with an opinion on what I write. Don Roley's opinion has no moment as WE ARE NO LONGER IN HIS Traditional Japan with its made-up illusions. You may continue your worshipful affair as that is your perogative.

If you wish additional dialogue, post your take on the history. Can you prove that you exist? Can you spell "sojobow" with a small "s?" Just call me Paul if you're having a personal problem with the "s."

[sojobow]

Don Roley,

I count 9 references that can be easily accessed. Where are yours? Tell us when, where, how and why the artform originated. This is more important than keeping your brainwashed hommies in line.

[Genin Andrew]

'S'ojobow, calling out Don Roley and asking him to explain himself like that really doesn't help you in any way.All you just did was avoid the questions you were respectfully asked,you tell alot but have no answers to anyones questions.

"I count 9 references that can be easily accessed" What are they Mr Sojobow and tell me in more detail what they are all about,I am very interested.

And just as a side note, Sojobow is you're name, correct? or your nick/alias whatever. Therefore i will refer to you as that 'title' with a Capital,simple english,simple respect thing...

[Enson]

To Enson: Tell me why you "have to agree." Sometimes, silence is golden.although your reasoning could be deemed as common sense... you have never once given any actual reference. where did you read this stuff? thats what they want to know. that is the thing with dux ryu practitioners is they never come up with actual references to their words/stories. why is it so hard for frank dux to present a picture of senzo tanaka? why is it no one has ever seen mr. tanaka but frank dux. sounds fictional. in order for people to believe you, there has to be proof. if not it remains hear-say. all they want from you is proof. it obviously does no good to argue a point that others are set in not recieving. so just present a picture, document, something and you win.

it reminds me of shiro, they bashed him all day long saying that hatsumi had it out for hayes, and one day would take his ultimate revenge for making him so famous. then shiro/gmunoz presented a certificate signed not only by hayes but from hatsumi. not only that, shiro went to the taikai and all these guys that claim to live in japan and take trips every year there could not back their claims. shiro said that he trained in the taikai in his quest gi and everyone had to shut up. that was funny. they all kinda disappeared in other threads and never confronted the topic. it turned out they didn't know everything and it was done. so get the proof and like i said you win! silence is not golden its secrecy (sp) and that has no backing.

peace

[DuckofDeath]

sojobow,

Check this out:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=248159&postcount=8

Are you going to compose the "Who is Frank Dux" for the FAQ, or do you want me to handle it?

[sojobow]

'S'ojobow, calling out Don Roley and asking him to explain himself like that really doesn't help you in any way.All you just did was avoid the questions you were respectfully asked,you tell alot but have no answers to anyones questions.

"I count 9 references that can be easily accessed" What are they Mr Sojobow and tell me in more detail what they are all about,I am very interested.

And just as a side note, Sojobow is you're name, correct? or your nick/alias whatever. Therefore i will refer to you as that 'title' with a Capital,simple english,simple respect thing...
================================================== =======
You have a strange way (somewhat) in asking for information. I'd try humbleness. It works well. But, for your information, here is a short list as my own studies in order to determind "The Way" is years in development and an anthology of everything I have read is personal to me.

The Samurai, The Barbarians (Khan, Atilla, Eric), History of the Ninja. The Discovery Channel.

The War College, Studies at West Point.

Various Websites references to Chinese History, DDale Seago, Shaolin Kung Fu, The Triads, The Black Dragons et al, Hatsumi Sensei, Racism in Japan, Forums (Japanese and Chinese),

Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Homework Assignments.

C. P. Fitzgerald, China, A short Cultural History. London, 1950 (Revised Edition. The Cresent Press

Miyamoto Musasha, A Book of Five Rings (rs. victor Harris).

Dr. Lionello Lanciotti, sword Casting and related Legends in China, Wu Yueh Ch'un Ch'iu.

D. T. Suzuki & Carl Jung., Zen Buddhism, An Introduction To.

Sun Tzu, The Art of War. Oxford University.

Yang K'uan. A History of the Warring States. People's Press. Shanghai.

Ch'i-ch'ao Liano, Chinese Politcal Thought.
================================================== ======

I rarely ask others for "references" to what they post. I enjoy the search to find out for myself. All I need is the "subject" or a "key word."

Regrding your "Side Note," the name is sojobow. There is a Poet/Writter that begins his name "e. e.". My name is what it is. You cannot change it out of any respect. It is what it is.

Now, once again; I have posted my take on a short history, Where is yours.

[sojobow]

although your reasoning could be deemed as common sense... you have never once given any actual reference. where did you read this stuff? thats what they want to know. that is the thing with dux ryu practitioners is they never come up with actual references to their words/stories. why is it so hard for frank dux to present a picture of senzo tanaka? why is it no one has ever seen mr. tanaka but frank dux. sounds fictional. in order for people to believe you, there has to be proof. if not it remains hear-say. all they want from you is proof. it obviously does no good to argue a point that others are set in not recieving. so just present a picture, document, something and you win.


Point 1. Whether or not they believe me is of no importance to me expecially when their presented Spirit is antagonistic. Not presenting "proof" is mutually exclusive from and disattached from being proposed as a liar.

Point 2. All I asked for is other's opinion on what they think is a beginning history of Ninjitsu. Anyone serious about the subject knows, beforehand, that the actual history will never be known with any certainty. There are native-born Japanese that will look upon this subject as pure nonsense and it very well may be. But, it seems, only 2 people here have taken it seriously enough to profess their opinions. Didn't ask for a short take on Ninjutsu as I really find more than enough takes on Ninjutsu's history. As I believe that the difference between Ninjitsu and Ninjuts is similar to the difference to day and night, Ninjitsu is more important to me personally. Where's your take on the beginning of Ninjitsu? Post it.

Point 3. Regarding the remainder of your post, ask Sensei Tew. He knows. Good question, now that I think on it. Why have you not already asked Sensei Tew?

[Don Roley]

I have posted my take on a short history, Where is yours.

Translation,
"I have listed as many books as I can without page numbers or anything like that so that I can get the other side off my back for a while. By the time they realize that these things do not back up what I say, most people will have hopefully forgotten."

[sojobow]

Translation,
"I have listed as many books as I can without page numbers or anything like that so that I can get the other side off my back for a while. By the time they realize that these things do not back up what I say, most people will have hopefully forgotten."

Another Translation.

I did my research, you do your own. I am not against leaving you as ignorant as you are now. Anyone serious will know where the references are in the Art of War or A Book of Five Rings. You should just about know them by heart by now. Here is one just for you - Fitzgerald, pages 94 to 99. Can't get you in West Point so you'll have to take my word for it. Good thing about the Chinese Books, most of them are very short - usually less than 150 pages which you should be able to read in one night. I read the translated versions cause I can't deal with the kanji. I know, you speak all languages so you'll get the original versions, but be advised, the originals ( a couple ) were written on little sticks - hundreds of them. Some references were Discovery Channel documentaries so what's the problem with them. Try Alta-Vista, Ask.com, Google.com. Oh, see you've done that a number of times already.

Main point is that you got me right about one thing, I don't think much of a few people's sincerity and - selfishly on my part - I just don't feel its my job to educate them since they, like yourself, have all these spirits of hate. Then, it wasn't you that figured me out after all, it was Joe Yang. Joe figured me out a long time ago but you Buji's didn't listen. Give old Joe my regards.

When you get off that "Hey loookie at me, I'm in Japan and everybody in Japan agrees with me" attitude, you'll find that a lot of people will be glad to share information with you. You would then also realize that one reason we don't share a lot of "proof" with you is because FEW PEOPLE LIKE YOU and don't give a flying gasterol bypass what you think. Wonder if the Emperor is one of your "known-in-Japan" buddies or have you been misrepresenting him too.

Get down off the "I'm the gatekeeper of the Ninja Truths" and we might start respecting you.

Then again, maybe not.

Oh and P.S., good to see you have looked up a few of my references now and before. I've noticed. But, I really can't understand why you didn't come back and tell the forums what you found out, what was correct and or what was incorrect. My translation: "Damn, that Tengu sojobow was right. Can't let everybody know though. Makes me look bad." Peace.

[Don Roley]

Oh and P.S., good to see you have looked up a few of my references now and before. I've noticed. But, I really can't understand why you didn't come back and tell the forums what you found out, what was correct and or what was incorrect. My translation: "Damn, that Tengu sojobow was right. Can't let everybody know though. Makes me look bad." Peace.

Becasue AFAIK, you have never been proved right about anything like this. The example of your history of the Black Dragon Society seems to be a pretty good indication of your "research". A bad movie plot from the Ashida Kim web site.

Oh, and care to give an exact source that backs up what the Ashida Kim site said about the BDS?

[sojobow]

Why not just go away. I am concerned that the moderators here will close this thread due to you and your raiders posting opinions of no use to the subject of our trying to develop what, when, where, and how this concept of Ninjitsuism developed. We're not concerned about your AFAIks or your personal issues. Just go away and take your stooges with you.

Jay Bell just closed an excellent thread on his forum dealing with Choshi Dori because of you and the usual suspects showed up posting utter nonsense unrelated to the subject and then he used some trumped-up lie about why he was closing the thread. If you guys can't stick to the subject, why post? Just leave.

Thanx.

[Don Roley]

Why not just go away. I am concerned that the moderators here will close this thread due to you and your raiders posting opinions of no use to the subject of our trying to develop what, when, where, and how this concept of Ninjitsuism developed.

But when you see such bad historical information being treated as truth, it is hard to stand by and do nothing.

And how the heck is demanding proof to back up your claims in this thread off topic?

So, if you want us to treat you differently, you are going to have to start giving facts and sources. Ashida Kim is not a good source and when you give his site as a one, you should expect people to point it out.

When you state something, expect people to make coments about it and challenge it. Loudly complaining that people are beating you up because they won't stay quiet is not going to get you much.

[Genin Andrew]

Mr Sojobow,you have asked for my version of history regarding 'ninjitsu'.
First off, my level of "research" has taught me that 'ninjitsu' is no more than a Western mis-spelling of the term "ninjutsu". Which refers to the ancient "JAPANESE" fighting styles and martial ways of the Ninja.

Secondly i need to correct you on something, "The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi" is correctly titled "The" Book of Five Rings not "A" Book of Five Rings, as in 'A Russian ninja went to Korea and was raised by A group of warrior monks" that is incorrect.

I have read many books (and countless web references) about NINJUTSU and Japanese History but will list only those in which i own and feel comfortable enough using as a referance off the top of my head...

'Early Japan' by Jonathon Norton Leonard
'Samurai' by Mitsuo Kure
'The Road Back to Nature' by Masanobu Fukuoka
'Ninjutsu: The art of the invisible warrior' By Stephen K. Hayes
'The Ninja: and their secret fighting art' by Stephen K. Hayes
'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu translated by Thomas Cleary
'The Tao Te Ching'
'The Book of Five Rings' Miyamoto Musashi
'Ancient China' by Edward H. Schafer

I dont need to further list page numbers etc. Simply because these books comfortably support all i have stated in regard to the History of "NINJUTSU" and the lack of Russian Ninja...

I am surprised i have taken this stance and gotten so involved with this little debate instead of sitting back and dismissing what you have said but i am finding this almost fun. However for your sake and the credibility of your Knowledge i suggest you go and read a few Japanese History books or books Regarding Ninjutsu written by Japanese or legitimate historians/practitioners and move past your "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Homework Assignments" level of research...

And back to 'NIN JIT SU' If you can find me a book/video/essay/scroll/ or anything that refers to a "ninja" and "ninjitsu" as opposed to ninjutsu, and isnt written by A.Kim or any Black dragon members or A.Kim members but is actually a decent,good quality peace of writing that states...

a) Ninjitsu or Ninjitsuists as you call them have actual historical recordings.
b) There were once "Ninjitsuists" in Korea,Phillipenes and...oh dear...Eastern Russia.

I again draw your attention back to the comment you made about yourself being aquainted with "practitioners of Ninpo" and the fact that they only teach their children,and i again ask you the question which you carefully tried to neglect which was "what makes the parents of these children practitioners of ninpo,what do they teach and what makes them different to any other parent?"

Love your work...

[Enson]

Point 3. Regarding the remainder of your post, ask Sensei Tew. He knows. Good question, now that I think on it. Why have you not already asked Sensei Tew?ask him what? his take on ninjutsu?:idunno:

as far as your post goes... well thats why no one will take you serious. all i'm saying sojobow is come up with an actual photo of tanaka and that will at least hault some of the continuous attack against you from "haters".

as far as history... well i think that has been said over and over... came from indie, went to china, found its way to japan to the iga/koga mountains, the concept was developed there, and honed here in the u.s.a! (for our use anyway. we don't have to fight the samurai here on american soil. hee hee!)

[sojobow]

Oh, and care to give an exact source that backs up what the Ashida Kim site said about the BDS?

Sure. Here is an "exact" source just for you: ASK ASHIDA KIM. His site - not mine.

[sojobow]

When you state something, expect people to make coments about it and challenge it. Loudly complaining that people are beating you up because they won't stay quiet is not going to get you much.
Why?

[sojobow]

Mr Sojobow,you have asked for my version of history regarding 'ninjitsu'.
Feel free to drop the Mr..Appreciate it, but quite unnecessary. Plain 'sojobow' will due.

First off, my level of "research" has taught me that 'ninjitsu' is no more than a Western mis-spelling of the term "ninjutsu". Which refers to the ancient "JAPANESE" fighting styles and martial ways of the Ninja.
I honor what your research has taught you. I have no dispute with it.

Secondly i need to correct you on something, "The Book of Five Rings by Miyamoto Musashi" is correctly titled "The" Book of Five Rings not "A" Book of Five Rings, as in 'A Russian ninja went to Korea and was raised by A group of warrior monks" that is incorrect.
Thanx But: Musashi, Miyamoto: A Book of Five Rings, The Classic Guide to Strategy. The Overlook Press. Translated from the Japanese by Victor Harris. United States, 1974 by The Overlook Press, Peter Mayer Publishers, Inc. Woodstock & New York, Copyright 1974 By Victor Harris. Library of Congress Catalog Card Number 73-33986 95 pages.

I have read many books (and countless web references) about NINJUTSU and Japanese History but will list only those in which i own and feel comfortable enough using as a referance off the top of my head...

'Early Japan' by Jonathon Norton Leonard
'Samurai' by Mitsuo Kure
'The Road Back to Nature' by Masanobu Fukuoka
'Ninjutsu: The art of the invisible warrior' By Stephen K. Hayes
'The Ninja: and their secret fighting art' by Stephen K. Hayes
'The Art of War' by Sun Tzu translated by Thomas Cleary
'The Tao Te Ching'
'The Book of Five Rings' Miyamoto Musashi
'Ancient China' by Edward H. Schafer

I dont need to further list page numbers etc. Simply because these books comfortably support all i have stated in regard to the History of "NINJUTSU" and the lack of Russian Ninja...
Don't know why you felt the need to list you library. But thanx anyway.

I am surprised i have taken this stance and gotten so involved with this little debate instead of sitting back and dismissing (?) what you have said but i am finding this almost fun. However for your sake and the credibility of your Knowledge i suggest you go and read a few Japanese History books or books Regarding Ninjutsu written by Japanese or legitimate historians/practitioners and move past your "Dux Ryu Ninjitsu Homework Assignments" level of research...
Been there, done that. Few told me what I really needed to know. Read one, read em all.


And back to 'NIN JIT SU' If you can find me a book/video/essay/scroll/ or anything that refers to a "ninja" and "ninjitsu" as opposed to ninjutsu, and isnt written by A.Kim or any Black dragon members or A.Kim members but is actually a decent,good quality peace of writing that states...

a) Ninjitsu or Ninjitsuists as you call them have actual historical recordings.
b) There were once "Ninjitsuists" in Korea,Phillipenes and...oh dear...Eastern Russia.
Love your work...

Once again, what I believe that constitutes Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Ninpo, or any other term we us to losely define or refer to the War Art is quite different that your definition of the same. This "difference in definitions" is evidentally causing problems in our dialogue.

Example: In my own personal thoughts, Sun Tzu's: The Art of War (not "a" Art of War) as translated, completely defines what is commonly referred to as Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu or any other "tsu" you want to name it. Tzu defines the qualifications of a Sensei, Soke, Hanshi, Master or whatever name we use for "teacher" or "leader." The book defines What, How, When, Where Nijitsuism (feel free to insert your term here) must function and how it should evolve. As there were many writers expressing the same points as Sun Tzu expounded, I use the name - Sun Tzu - as being inclusive of all the Chinese writers/philosophers of his time.

The Way - or more correctly - "The Right Way," is, to me, the beginning of what is known as Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu or the more than 5 names originally given to the artform by the Chinese. One thing is for certain, the Japanese gave this same respect to the Chinese. Knowing that you will challenge this, I need only refer you to the writings of Fujibayashi Yasutake and it's introduction that states, in part:

"Although the author of the Bansenshukai was influenced by Chinese thought, and even indicates a connection to Chinese military traditions, he presents the material as the ultimate accumulation and perfection of Ninjutsu knowledge--as the name Bansenshukai itself suggests."

Again, the problem in our dialogue exist due to the fact that you and others extract your definitions from the traditional schools of Japan, while I extract my definitions and history from a much older source and a non-traditional school developed in a different era and local. I don't say yours is wrong but that some of us have a difference perspective on what constitutes Ninjitsuim. Your "history" will be different than what I believe, but no more correct nor incorrect. Yours is yours, mine is mine. Yours may be "legitimate" in Japan and good for you. I'm not grounded in the same foundation. Thus, "legitamate" is also only relative.

There are a number of "Ninjitsu" Ryu existing in America. I'd be hesitant to call them all ignorant. But thats just me.

Actually, I prefer to drop Ninjitsu, Ninjutsu, Ninja, Ninpo and prefer to use the term "The Way." But, for simple conversation, I use the Nin terms. Even "Special Forces" or "The Art of Survival" may be better terms IMHO. Pretty good - The Art of Survival Ryuha

Hope this helps.

[sojobow]

ask him what? his take on ninjutsu?:idunno:
I did say "regarding the reminder of your post" thus, I would think it literally refers to "the remainder." Ask Rick. He's your teacher is he not?

as far as your post goes... well thats why no one will take you serious. all i'm saying sojobow is come up with an actual photo of tanaka and that will at least hault some of the continuous attack against you from "haters".
You are not man enough to demand anything of me. Why should I come up with or defend anything. Has nothing to do with sojobow as deflection does work. The attacks will continue as it reflects the true teachings of the attackers. Simply doesn't work.

as far as history... well i think that has been said over and over... came from indie, went to china, found its way to japan to the iga/koga mountains, the concept was developed there, and honed here in the u.s.a! (for our use anyway. we don't have to fight the samurai here on american soil. hee hee!)
Thanx for the common definition of Martial Arts as told to most beginners. Now, share with us the initial history of Ninjitsu. You do study the art form do you not? Where or how did Ninjitsu begin? I know that Sensei Tew knows because I know who taught him and what he was taught. Stick around, one day he'll reveal some truths to you.

[Don Roley]

Sure. Here is an "exact" source just for you: ASK ASHIDA KIM. His site - not mine.

Are you sure you do not wish to reconsider and give a supporting source that does not lead back to Ashida Kim? I urge you to consider it if you really want to be taken seriously.

Ashida Kim is a joke. He is an incompetent fraud that is laughed at. He is the National Enquirer of the martial arts world. By using him as a source, you are opening yourself up to be treated like a person who uses the National Enquirer as a serious research source.

Really. If this is the level of research you do and you refuse to give any sources like you most often do, then people are going to treat you based on your reputation. So do you really want the reputation of someone who states things as hard cold facts but bases his research on Ashida Kim?

[sojobow]

I've re-read a few of my posts. Please show me where I EVER used AK as a Source for anything. Don't know him. Never met him. Read one book by him on Entering and Exiting. Have nothing against him as our paths never cross. But I don't see a problem with reading something written by anyone. I read your essay on Koga and don't think any more or less of either you or him. Both your essay and his book are the same to me. Something to read and think about. You and he have a lot in common.

But, back to the point. Please show me where I used AK as a source for anything. If you don't reply, I will consider that you can't.

[Genin Andrew]

"Sure. Here is an "exact" source just for you: ASK ASHIDA KIM. His site - not mine."

*sighs* I cannot believe you just posted that...
I wasnt taking you seriously when you were using your "dux-ryu homework assignments" as research...and now this...

Sojobow i hope you won't be too surprised if you get a "little" flack for that comment.You pretty much just knee-capped yourself !!!...oh dear.

[sojobow]

Actually, I don't think my sensei has another student that he laughts at more than I. I kind of enjoy it. My kids just fall out laughing at me. Hope we all keep laughing. It's actually healthy for you. Hope the moderators here are laughing at me too. Thats a Tengu for ya.

[Don Roley]

Sojobow i hope you won't be too surprised if you get a "little" flack for that comment.You pretty much just knee-capped yourself !!!...oh dear.

And once someone is shown to be not trustworthy, you can pretty much leave him alone to scream as much as he wants.

Tell me Andrew, did you come into this with an open mind towards Sojobow? What is your impression now?

[sojobow]

"Sure. Here is an "exact" source just for you: ASK ASHIDA KIM. His site - not mine."

*sighs* I cannot believe you just posted that...
I wasnt taking you seriously when you were using your "dux-ryu homework assignments" as research...and now this...

Sojobow i hope you won't be too surprised if you get a "little" flack for that comment.You pretty much just knee-capped yourself !!!...oh dear.

Oh, I get it now. Don Roley post a quote and a reference to Ashida Kim's website. Then Don Roley comes here and asks me to give him a source for what Ashida Kim says on Ashida Kim's website. Humorously, I say why the 7734 ask me to prove something on someone elses website of which I have not direct or indirect involvement. So I say, "Go ask Ashida Kim" why the 7734 ask me? And you take it serious. You guys need to wake up. Better yet, go back to sleep cause you both missed that one. See what hating gets you?

You guys aren't very bright or you. Geez

[Don Roley]

You guys aren't very bright or you. Geez

Should that not be "are you" instead of "or you"? It goes over a lot better when you try to project mental superiority if you can actually get the phrase correct.

But let us look at the quote you made earlier.



There was/is the Black Dragon Tong of Retribution, The Black Dragon Society and the Black Dragon Fighting Society (whose membership comprised mostly of Koga) just to name 3. The Black Dragon Fighting Society, together with one Chinese Ninjitsuist and two Korean Ninjitsuist were responsible for a failed attempt to assassinate Ieyasu Tokugawa 5 centuries ago. Old Shogun escaped with the help of a snitch from what I've read.

So, if you did not get it from the Ashida Kim web site, where did you get it? You should be able to point us exactly to where we can access it instead of listing the first 30 books that come to your head.

And why does it sound almost word for word like the Ashida Kim web site? If you did not get it from him, where did you get it? Hmmm?

So, this is the type of research you do? Either you get it from Ashida Kim, or you cannot show any source at all. That does not inspire trust in others.

Time for you to crank up the insults to cover your tracks. :flame:

[sojobow]

And once someone is shown to be not trustworthy, you can pretty much leave him alone to scream as much as he wants.

Tell me Andrew, did you come into this with an open mind towards Sojobow? What is your impression now?
I'm not your enemy. Why you insist on discussing sojobow regardless of the subject at hand is beyond me. If you don't want to participate in the subject of the threads, you could at least PM me with your personal issues as they really don't belong in this forum. It is evident your trustworthiness is becoming much more evident than anyone else here. I'm beginning to think you are just a troll and I will stop feeding you until you post something of value. Keep recruiting, you do need help.

Peace.

[Don Roley]

Why you insist on discussing sojobow regardless of the subject at hand is beyond me.

Because sojobow keeps making statements about things like history that ultimately come down to his word and charecter. If sojobow were to provide sources, then the matter of sojobow's behavior would be moot. But sojobow keeps trying to say things, and then dodge giving sources- such as where he got the info on the Black Dragon Society. So the matter of whether we should trust him or not then becomes an issue.

[sojobow]

I actually don't know the website you refer to. However, cut-&-paste the page from the AK site you are referring to and then overlay my post and see if they fit word-for-word as you seem to suggest. That would be real interesting. Plus, I'd really like to know what was said on the AK site you are referring to since it seems someone else may have an opinion on the old conspiracy. Are you uncomfortable with my presence? Seems you've done this a number of times. I say something and you go find someone else that says something similar and your response is that you don't like them either since they aren't "known in Japan" and or being laughed at by the guys sitting around your table (your usual "we are laughing at everything." Why not tell us the names of these friends of yours known only in Japan.

Can you say "jealous." ??????

[Don Roley]

I actually don't know the website you refer to.

Why, I have posted it before, and here it is again.

http://ashidakim.com/history.html

You may note the use of the term "Black Dragon Tong of Retribution" which is
the exact same term you used among other things.

So, ready to tell us your source for what you wrote, or are you going to insult and misdirect some more?

[Enson]

well this thread is called "fresh air". it feels like old air to me. i was trying to give sojobow (who often refers to himself in the 3rd person) advise on how to come out ahead. then he gets off and insults me. can he say... burn bridges? talk about leading a horse to water. i must say when someone gets their reference from ashida kim thats pretty bad. then he goes off and says that he has nothing against ashida kim. whats that about? ashida kim is a joke and will always remain that way. for someone to have an "official $#@^ list" on his site and not be considered a joke... i didn't agree with you sojobow but i used to respect you. i felt you always made a good argument and always stood your ground well. (even if it was false information) everyone knows i'm no fan of don roley but i do respect his vast knowledge of ninjutsu history. so do most on here. maybe i will take your advise and stick with sensei tew long enough for him to tell me about philipino/russian ninja. one more question: did they cross breed?

[Kreth]

You guys aren't very bright or you.
Irony... gotta love it...

Jeff

[DuckofDeath]

My kids just fall out laughing at me.



Is one of your kids a little Paul Warren, Jr. by any chance?

**Url Edited because of Profanity and innappropriateness for MT's G rating** Please read Martial Talks Rules & Policies regarding appropriate Outside links**

[Shogun]

I'm not your enemy. Why you insist on discussing sojobow regardless of the subject at hand is beyond me. If you don't want to participate in the subject of the threads, you could at least PM me with your personal issues as they really don't belong in this forum. It is evident your trustworthiness is becoming much more evident than anyone else here. I'm beginning to think you are just a troll and I will stop feeding you until you post something of value. Keep recruiting, you do need help.

Peace.What doesnt belong here, is claims that have no truth. Please PM whoever you are trying to scam, as it doesnt belong here.

cheers,
KE

[sojobow]

well this thread is called "fresh air". it feels like old air to me. i was trying to give sojobow (who often refers to himself in the 3rd person) advise on how to come out ahead. then he gets off and insults me.
My mistake. Won't happen again. 36 sleepless hours are killing me.

he goes off and says that he has nothing against ashida kim. whats that about? ashida kim is a joke and will always remain that way.
Never met the man. Never studied or looked into his personal or martial habits thus I have no opinion of AK one way or another. All I know is that he's a man. Just don't have time to be a person-studier.

did they cross breed?Yes, don't all humans exist as a result?

Anyway, found this artical moreso on the subject of the thread and not the subject of our favorite protagonist/antagonist - sojobow: Tell me whatyathink:

http://www.bstkd.com/culturejap.htm

Japanese Culture

The history of Japan is still poorly understood. Many Japanese still believe in the mythological origins of their people and island, and resist current anthropological, linguistic, and genetic studies which seem to demonstrating successive migrations from the Korean peninsula, taking place over two millennium. Some current research, for instance, suggests that the royal house of Paekchae, a Korean nation that succumbed during civil strife around 600 a.d., may have migrated to Japan, becoming the Japanese ruling family. DNA testing and linguistics seems to confirm a relationship. Similarly, little research is devoted to the displacement by these migrations of the Caucasian-appearing race that was indigenous to Japan, the Ainu, which still exists in northern Japan.

For the past 1500 years, Japan has experienced an extraordinary cultural development, promoted on the one hand by its island isolation, and on the other hand by the necessity of being an island nation with very limited natural resources.

Modern Japan has evolved from a distinctly feudal nation to a modern society in an extraordinarily short period of time. Many ancient traditions are, therefore, within modern memory and interpretation. "

================================================== ======

[Genin Andrew]

Irony... gotta love it...

Jeff
LMAO love your work Jeff...

Don, you asked for my impressions of Sojobow...

No i didnt really go into this thread with an open mind because i have read alot of Sojobows material before...and...well...i tried not to be to biased...

Sojobow i dont know you or anything about you or what you do,all i have to judge you on is your posts. I dont want to look down on you and judge you but as Enson Sujested its probably time for some "fresh air" and a little intermission to see where we're both coming from...

You have said very little on martialtalk and other forums that i agree with,almost nothing. Not only because it challenges my own knowledge but because you have not once 'elaborated' on your comments or the "history" that you have told me. I have on many occasions asked you questions respectfully wanting to know sources and further information referring to the claims you make,i have repeated some of those questions many times because you "strategically" (in your mind) have neglected them. I then became a little more aggressive with my approach to getting answers from you and still yet...

You have NOT ONCE given me any answers to any of my questions nor have you elaborated on your comments (which i also asked for). To me this is quite disrespectful as you blatantly ignore me and then act as though you have nothing against me and respect me and my knowledge.

That mentality may work and get you places in Dux-Ryu but it doesnt work for me,on any level. Some of the things you say Sojobow would be offensive to higher Ninjutsu practitioners and historians they are that far off the mark, if i didnt have such a good sense of humour i too would be offended at some point.Lucky for me and others, I am not the person to let such little vibrations in the web disturb me...

I do hope out of respect for yourself and the credibility of your position as a MAist that you are able to atleast attempt to answer my questions. And again for your own sake you could maybe bring yourself up a level and quit frollocking around in the fairytales you seem to be indulging in so freely...

Then maybe myself and others,will take more notice of your take on Ninja history and what you have to offer us here on martialtalk...thankyou.

much respect
-andrew

[DuckofDeath]

My kids just fall out laughing at me.



Is one of your kids a little Paul Warren, Jr. by any chance?

**Url Edited due to Content linking to material inappropriate for Martial Talk's family G Rating**

[sojobow]

You have said very little on martialtalk and other forums that i agree with,almost nothing. Not only because it challenges my own knowledge but because you have not once 'elaborated' on your comments or the "history" that you have told me. I have on many occasions asked you questions respectfully wanting to know sources and further information referring to the claims you make,i have repeated some of those questions many times because you "strategically" (in your mind) have neglected them. I then became a little more aggressive with my approach to getting answers from you and still yet...
much respect -andrew

Ask again your question. I will then (1) answer the question once again (2) show you where I previously answered your question and (3) again give you the reference (if available). Then, I am hopefull that you will post your own take on this history. You and others constantly complain and point out that I am wrong but you never show me what in particular is incorrect and why it is incorrect. I also see many times that you first agree with me but then say that I am incorrect which is very confusing. You say that you never agree with me but you seemed to agree with my very first post.

No effort on my part is made with the idea of changing anyone's mind or teaching anyone anything. I make a proposed statement and hope that those reading will help me to correctly form the lines. I get no help, only complaints with no correcting suggestions. I will admit that sometimes I will make mistakes such as saying Philipines when I really meant to say Okinawa or, your favorite, eastern russia versus the region now called eastern russia.

Why spend all this effort in doing your best to find even the most minute part of a sentence incorrect versus understanding the overally structure is also something that confuses me.

Again, ask your question and I will re-answer it for you. Then I hope to read a take on history from you. I don't mind if you just cut&paste a history taken from some other website. I just want to read other's ideas. I can glean what I think is usefull to me from what is posted. References are unnecessary as the object is to reveal ideas.

(Note: You do understand that you have asked for certain information and documents that you know don't exist. Strange request is it not?)

Now that I think on it, if I get the time, I'll go over each and every one of your posts and prove to you that I've answered your questions. I'll definately look forward to your response to that.

[Kreth]

On another forum (or maybe this one, I'm getting old), sojobow was given the nickname Snowjob to reflect his constant dodging of questions amid claims that he's answered all of them. Maybe this thread should have been titled "Hot Air". :rolleyes:

Jeff

[KenpoTess]

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[Enson]

My mistake. Won't happen again. 36 sleepless hours are killing me.

================================================== ======i will accept that as an apology. the only problem with your article is that it comes from the net. now anyone can write an article on the net. i.e. i can write an article on "koga" throw a few dates out there and act like i know it all. but in reality it could be all crap and people might believe me. you can get the same kinda crap from books too. only this time you are the fool for paying for such a book.

i would prefer to think of ninjutsu as a concept. a concept where anyone loyal and dedicated can follow. i.e. jkd concept. (this will probably get twisted and taken out of context ((it will be fun to see how)) i respect the epak guys. most don't claim to be taken in as a baby and taught epak from a japanese grandmaster. they honor and respect an american man for taking a japanese concept and making better for him and generations to come. i respect all other styles. i don't respect false claims. if your instructor was "joe blow" then honor him and what he taught you. if it works for you... use it!

[sojobow]

i will accept that as an apology. the only problem with your article is that it comes from the net. Not sure what article you're referencing. Regardless, I don't see how an article taken from the enternet presents a problem simply because it was placed on the net.


i would prefer to think of ninjutsu as a concept. a concept where anyone loyal and dedicated can follow. i.e. ......
Byjove, I think he's got it. A concept is exactly what I've been saying for the entire time on the net in these discussions. Don't think 'loyalty" is a pre-requisit. However, IMOHO, at one time, we were asked to present a battleplan/battle strategy. The battleplan was implimented and if the plan didn't work and our army lost, you were beheaded. Needless to say, those well-paid successfull strategist were constantly researching for better strategies, researching proven strategies and, if possible, practicing our strategies and as a result of this process of developmental strategic concepts, Ninjitsu (as a profession) was born.

Most of use look at Ninjitsu as a "Martial Art" and concentrate more of our effort in practicing the physical aspect like taijutsu, weapons trainings etc. Things we can easily see. But, Ninjitsu is much, much more than physical fighting (IMOHO). A concept of developing why things work. A profession.

[Genin Andrew]

Now that I think on it, if I get the time, I'll go over each and every one of your posts and prove to you that I've answered your questions. I'll definately look forward to your response to that.[/QUOTE]
I will wait in patience for this post...

"But, Ninjitsu is much, much more than physical fighting (IMOHO). A concept of developing why things work. A profession."

Sojobow,i think you will find that almost all Ninjutsu/Ninjukai/Tew Ryu practitioners agree with you on that level and we are all very aware that the art of the Ninja is far more than Taijutsu. Now you stated that Ninjutsu ( i refuse to use the phrase ninjitsuism...) was not a martial art more a "concept" I dont think Enson ment that at all,I'm sure he still sees it as an ART.

Lets look at the phrase, "martial" most commonly referring to "combat" and now "art" so we have combat art. Art is a very general term, and i will agree many MA organisations do neglect the spiritual/"artistic/other side to there art and only focus on taijutsu and strength etc. But after a little research etc you will come to understand that Ninjutsu is not one of these arts and is indeed a Martial Art.

much respect
-andrew

[Enson]

Now you stated that Ninjutsu ( i refuse to use the phrase ninjitsuism...) was not a martial art more a "concept" I dont think Enson ment that at all,I'm sure he still sees it as an ART.

much respect
-andrewthank you genin... i still consider ninjutsu as an art/science, but in that you will find the ninjutsu concept (i hope that makes sense). i will once again use epak or jkd... they are still martial arts but even in the different titles/styles/names of their schools they still have a concept they believe/trust/follow. whether it be rtms, ninjukai, xkan, etc. there should be a certain "concept" that is followed but should always be ninjutsu arts!

peace

[Kreth]

Now that I think on it, if I get the time, I'll go over each and every one of your posts and prove to you that I've answered your questions. I'll definately look forward to your response to that.
I will wait in patience for this post...
Don't hold your breath...

Jeff

[Genin Andrew]

oh dont worry Jeff,i wont.I'm going to bed:)
Maybe the morning will awake Sojobow and bring some answers...maybe not.

[sojobow]

You have NOT ONCE given me any answers to any of my questions nor have you elaborated on your comments (which i also asked for). To me this is quite disrespectful as you blatantly ignore me and then act as though you have nothing against me and respect me and my knowledge.

That mentality may work and get you places in Dux-Ryu but it doesnt work for me,on any level.much respect
-andrewThought you might have retracted that post by now. But, I understand.
Pardon the delay. There was a problem with my username/password/email address/response from the webmaster.

Your post #2 had a number of questions (3 or 4). I answered them in my post #4.
Your post #6 contained questions (regarding children) which were somewhat unclear. You answered your own questions thereafter. I replied in the very next post. I also answered the reference question in post #8 then added more in my post #12.
(Note: thus far, you have agreed with me on quite a few points in both of your posts.)
Your Post #19, meant to correct me on the title Five Rings was noted. This post was answered, in detail, in my post #23.
Your post #27 was simply another misreading of my post directed to Mr. Roley. We all do this, so no big deal.
#48. Nothing of any importance other than you agreeing with me once again. Actually, "martial" has another definition in Webster's. But, when the complete phrase "martial art" is used, the term "martial" itself take on another completely different definition drawn to "purpose" eg., we define the complete term "Martial Art" by defining it purpose versus defining each word individually.
Now, back to your post #41.
You said: "You have said very little on martialtalk and other forums that i agree with,almost nothing."
Response: You've agreed with me in just about every post by your own words.
You said: "you have not once 'elaborated' on your comments or the "history"
Response: I am the ONLY person to elaborate on "history." Asked for yours too. Not forthcomming as of yet.
You said: "You have NOT ONCE given me any answers to any of my questions nor have you elaborated on your comments (which i also asked for)."
Response: Nowithstanding yourself and a couple of other's, seems I have not once MISSED answering your questions as proven in this post and enumerated above.
You said: "repeated some of those questions many times because you "strategically" (in your mind) have neglected them."
Response: Other than your "russian ninja" or philapino ninja (which was corrected to Okinawan versus Philip's, haven't read any repeats
that were not repeatedly answered as shown above.
The remainder of your post #41 contained just simple insults which require no response. Actually, the entire post was an attemped insult as none of it's contents are true inclusive of your usual "much respect." Could be someone posted for you and then you came in without reading what they said on your behalf, or you are simple not being honest as I have answered your every pertinent questions; I have elaborated, and am the only person in this thread to do so; you have agreed with me in more of your post than not so, realistically, it hard for me to understand why you made up Post #41 other than expressed above or you are trying to be recruited.
Either way, at least you posted something. And, as afforementioned, I'm not your enemy. Why you've taken this antagonist attitude, I think, really has to do with your training and devotion to traditionalism. Historians have written extensively on the subject of Traditionalism and most came to the opinion, that traditionalism breeds tyranny.
This is why the owners of this forum split the Ninjutsu into subsections. If I posted in the Kan section, the same problems would exist. If you concentrated you communications in that section, we wouldn't be having this conversation and you'd be a lot happier.

Now, try sticking to the subject and not trying to spar with me personally.

[Kreth]

I also answered the reference question in post #8 then added more in my post #12.
*SNORT* You answered the reference question how? Not by posting the contents of your library. Someone who had really done the research would have been able to footnote each fact, specifying a title, author, and page number. You were just throwing up a smokescreen and hoping everyone bought it. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Jeff

[Bob Hubbard]

Pardon the delay. There was a problem with my username/password/email address/response from the webmaster.

huh?

[Genin Andrew]

huh?
Thats what i seem to say after reading all of Sojobows posts, but Sojobow if you feel you have answered my questions then that is fine, I wasnt too serious about getting answers from you as they are obviously beyond your research.I am not your enemy either,just dont like reading rubbish.

p.s. I am a very happy man.:)

much respect
-andrew

[Bob Hubbard]

Looks like either his or my email was slow to deliver today, but there was an issue, it was resolved. At least I understand 1 thing here now. :D

[sojobow]

Microsoft decided to change the route to certain folders without my knowing. Decided to put things where they thought they should be versus where I set the folders' filters. Took me a few days to figure it out. Found that your replies were timely. Thanks webmaster.

[sojobow]

*SNORT* You answered the reference question how? Not by posting the contents of your library. Someone who had really done the research would have been able to footnote each fact, specifying a title, author, and page number. You were just throwing up a smokescreen and hoping everyone bought it. Nice try, thanks for playing.

Jeff
I consider giving someone a name or a title as a good reference. Guess thats because that is usually all I need to know. I'll do the rest. I also know that Andrew really wouldn't have looked them up anyway so why bother. If he was interested enough to look them up, there is enough information posted to do so. Search Engines work quite well. Most of the references are also quite ordinary in that anyone in Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu would have long ago studied these references and would know exactly where the references can be found. Appreciate your interest but I would like to get back to historical summaries versus these personal hits by someone having nothing to do with the subject at hand. You're dismissed.

[sojobow]

Thats what i seem to say after reading all of Sojobows posts, but Sojobow if you feel you have answered my questions then that is fine, I wasnt too serious about getting answers from you as they are obviously beyond your research.I am not your enemy either,just dont like reading rubbish.

p.s. I am a very happy man.:)

much respect
-andrewYou might want to simply stop reading my post. I already knew that you were not serious when you posted #41 (it speaks for itself) and most of the rest of your post. However, I did give my word that I would go back through my post and answer your post, which I did. I even found another "source" and posted the entire page to enhance even further discussions . Where are yours? Where are Kreth's? Add Something!

[sojobow]

Nice try, thanks for playing.
JeffSoke Kreth,
I noticed one of your prior post to Enson of Tew Ryu Ninjitsu. Here is what you said:
"Misguided Minds.....
Reply to Enson
"The Ninjutsu forum is a subforum under the Japanese Martial Arts forum. Therefore, if your ninjutsu/ninjitsu [sic] lineage has no ties to Japan, you should not be posting here. Jeff Velten."
Now, notwithstanding your ownership of this forum which gives you the right to be so narcistic, I beg you to read and comprehend the link to this section.
The link to this sections says basically: "this forum is for the discussion of Modern or "Neo" Ninjutsu and those not recognized as fitting the definition of "Traditional". This would include the more modern adaptations and developments such as Tew Ryu, Toshindo and other mordern variations."
Since your Bujinkan formated answer to Enson was so eloquent, why then does your ownership of this forum not apply to this subsection? Inquiring minds want to know. Maybe Mr. Kaith Rustaz can assist us with this new Limited Partnership you've developed. Go as you please, come as you please, but I do think you should take note your own hypocracy and start adding to the discussions versus teaching us non-"traditionalist" as we don't pay dues. Feel free to correct my english grammar, spelling, diction and phonics. Always willing to learn.
My intent was to edit my prior post to you however, took me too long to write these big words.

[Kreth]

You might want to check your dates, snowjob. My reply to Enson was prior to Kaith subdividing the forum. As for adding to the discussion, I feel I am doing so by providing a counter to your misinformation. You may notice that I'm not giving Genin Andrew, et al; a hard time, as they're not attempting to rewrite history. I don't have a problem with neo-ninja, just those who try to change historical fact to give themselves a lineage that does not, in fact, exist. Your "historical summaries" are a joke, and I, and others will continue to point out the gaping holes in them as long as you post them.
Oh, and btw, the big word you were fishing for is narcissistic. Perhaps if you quit trying to play the lecturer and actually read some of these titles you keep posting, you wouldn't feel that I'm picking on you.

Jeff

[Enson]

. You're dismissed.i have to admit that was funny! lol! :lol:
that was a little hurtful what kreth said but i'm okay! hee hee! ;)the funny thing with that thread was i was trying to be a nice guy and i got jumped. anyway... in the past.
sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!

peace

[Genin Andrew]

"sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!"

Enson we always play fair, this isnt a battle and it isnt personal its just EDUCATION,we are all learning in a comfortable environment.

However this topic is proving difficult for some to handle, some people learn in different ways and at different rates to others,so we must be patient and understand module 1. THE NINJA,NINPO,NINJUTSU were/are Japanese. then when the majority of the class catches on we can discuss further issues that relate to the practices of the Ninja.

However one student sitting up the back seems to be taking control of the class and trying to tell us factual history from his own theories,this is incorrect and disruptive to the rest of the class,it disturbs proper learning...and i am one of those dudes that sit up the front and absorb as much as possible from my classes, I dont enjoy hearing good quality information get molested and tangled with drunken ramblings.

much respect
-andrew

[Genin Andrew]

To anyone who takes offence to any of that, i apologize. It sounds a little harsh but was intended to be taken lightly.:)

[sojobow]

You might want to check your dates, snowjob. My reply to Enson was prior to Kaith subdividing the forum. As for adding to the discussion, I feel I am doing so by providing a counter to your misinformation. You may notice that I'm not giving Genin Andrew, et al; a hard time, as they're not attempting to rewrite history. I don't have a problem with neo-ninja, just those who try to change historical fact to give themselves a lineage that does not, in fact, exist. Your "historical summaries" are a joke, and I, and others will continue to point out the gaping holes in them as long as you post them.
Oh, and btw, the big word you were fishing for is narcissistic. Perhaps if you quit trying to play the lecturer and actually read some of these titles you keep posting, you wouldn't feel that I'm picking on you.

Jeff
snowjob????? Moving right along Kreth.

Regardless of dates - and recoup as you wish - you told Enson that he was not welcomed to post in the original section or subsection because his Ryu had no ties in Lineage to Japan and no one should post in your little word of traditionalism if their Ryu isn't listed in the book. Japan notwithstanding, this attitude is downright unAmerican. Who appointed you Lord of the Japanese Ninjutsu Ring anyway? And, FYI, Tew Ryu does, in fact, have lineage to Japan. Because you don't know of it, does not mean it does not exist. Here (in this sub section) we don't care and will not pursue the matter.

Wasn't fishing for any word. I wrote what I intended to write.

In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too. I want to know why "things just don't fit." But I do wish that you and others would drop the personal attacks and just say, as an example, no sojobow, Ninjutsu in Japan began in the year xxxx because of xxxxxxxx. A man/woman named xxxxxxxx started it by xxxxxxxxxx.

Believe me, all I want is to get close to something that makes sense regardless of the Lineage. There were other Ninjutsu families in areas other than Iga and Koga. How are we all related? Who were/are they? Since the Landlords hated Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu and used their Samurai to wage war on Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu (just disregard any word you don't like), how were these Ninja able to defend themselves against the samurai sword? Would the survival of the Ninja prove that their Sword Techniques were equal to that of the Samurai? Would a Ninja be caught grappling? Would a Ninja really be involved with a dojo open to the public? Would a real Ninja ever admit that he was a Ninja? What would a Ninja think of BJJ? What were the battle tactics used by the Landlords and how did the Iga Ninja defend in their particular war? When the Emperor brought peace and nationality to Japan and, as some say, hired Ninja as his Secret Service, government-sponsored CIA, killers etc, when, and whom did he hire, and when and whom did he fire? Has there ever been a group waged war against simply because of what they knew other than Ninja? Does Sun Tzu really have anything to do with Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu? And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?

Ok to even say, sojobow, you're an idiot. xxxxxxxx never happened as you say but what really happened was xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx. Words of insult never really effect me so the portion of these statements that I value would begin with what you say after the usual Traditionalistic Insults. But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp). The insults are noted if if makes you feel better Soke. You're much better than what you present as intellect in your past 30 post.

[sojobow]

"sojobow, kreth, andrew, enson... oh wait thats me. lets play nice!"

Enson we always play fair, this isnt a battle and it isnt personal its just EDUCATION,we are all learning in a comfortable environment.

However one student sitting up the back seems to be taking control of the class and trying to tell us factual history from his own theories,this is incorrect and disruptive to the rest of the class,it disturbs proper learning...and i am one of those dudes that sit up the front and absorb as much as possible from my classes, I dont enjoy hearing good quality information get molested and tangled with drunken ramblings.

much respect
-andrew
Were all listening, tell us your take. Class has your complete attention and won't interupt. We're listening.

Need help? Well, you do use swordforum as a reference in your signature area. Tell us why you would study the Sword (if you do) when you can't use one on the streets (at least here in the US)? Now, before you get upset, I think we all should study the sword. But tell us why you study the blade. Or, please feel free to use this thread to enlighten us on your take of Ninjutsu's history. We will not interupt or pick what you post apart. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Genin Andrew]

My take on the history of ninjustu? I dont mind writing excessively long posts,but this would be very very long and teadious for most browsers since i have shed little snippets of my beliefs throughout the forum i dont see any point in exposing my whole beliefs of the subject since i would only be repeating what many books say. So i will be brief and say more of my own theories rather than repeat factual history.

OK, One who doesn't approach the history of Ninpo without an open mind is a plain fool, and will understand very little. However have a too open mind and you will fall victim to Ashida Kim stories and the adventures of Russian Ninja. And you're knowledge of the topic will be badly scratched.As a side note,this is why it is better to learn from books rather than the internet,sure there are some great sites with great facts and theories but there is also a great deal of crap out there. Be mindful...

The problem with understanding ninjutsu and its beginnings is the simple fact that very few people know very littleand Historians have had very little to work with. The Bansenshukai, Ninpiden and the Shoninki are the most well known Historical scrolls referring to the Ninja and their ways known today. A fact that is often forgotten is that the Ninja werent a ruling empire,they had no social control,they were a secret sect of families who were just like the common Japanese farmer. What made them different was their knowledge and well developed fighting techniques which weren't made public like a samurai would parading the streets with his katana and wakizashi. The ninja were known by other ninja and a few who has called on them for assistance. They left with them very little traces let alone documents.

The second main problem is Japan's history in general. Being the contradictive nation it was. The Meiji restoration from 17th century to the 19th locked Japan in a series of rigid structures, strict placement of social classes and so forth. Ninja were never an officially recognized social group, Ninjutsu being virtually unknown, in my belief went into hiding and became much more 'low key' in this time, I also believe that many Ninpo practitioners fled to China to escape the grasp of the Ruling Samurai and the strict social changes. Note i said 'some' not all ( an open-minded possibility ).

The founding of ninjutsu (very very brief).
There was no founder, no first Ninja. Ninjutsu was a progressive development developed by poor/middle class families and some outcasts who lived in the outskirts,less explored areas of Japan. Historically noted are the mountainous regions such as Iga and Koga as a historical example. However i believe there were other regions which escaped documentation. I refer to Ninjutsu as the art and 'way' of the ninja ecompassing all aspects, even ninpo. I believe Ninpo to be the more philisophical and spiritual side to 'way'. Ninpo covers everyday values and attitudes,morals,etiquettes, ways of thinking, spiritual philosophies,appreciation of nature. These are all aspects of Ninpo, that boils Ninpo down to being a "mindset" in its most simplest form,however we know it is much more than that...

To me Ninpo/Ninjutsu began its first stages of development in the mid to late 15th century. Ninpo was started by these lone family groups, and i think the natural environment around them inspired its development greatly. These families were made up of the Japanese farmers and oppressed social groups and also the Chinese, who fled their warring homeland. It has been stated that there was a great Chinese influence in Ninpo/Ninjutsu, this i agree with. The Chinese contribution to the development of espionage in Japan had been rather substantial. The wandering Yamabushi and Shugenda who also made the infamous mountain regions their quiet home had a big influence on these families, I believe there was significant association with the groups,they learnt from eachother and adopted many different 'ways'. This is what made the Ninjutsu fighting arts so effective and well rounded not to mention "mysteriously unconventional".

These families (often seperated into "clans" clans of Iga and Koga for example) suffered great oppression and needed means to defend themselves and their homes, also needed was effective means of counter-attack (and methods of infiltration ). Ninjutsu didnt just begin developing so to speak, the practitioners of ninjutsu simply began refining it. Adapting and building on many different techniques and methods. The Ninja steered from the guidelines and structures of more common techniques and based their fighting styles on spontaneity and learnt to effectively use whatever they could in a variety of situations. Hence the fact that the Bo became a favoured weapon of the Ninja because of its simplistic structure and endless uses.

However i personally believe that despite the Chinese influence that Ninjutsu as a fighting art and Ninpo as a 'way' were born in Japan,not entirely by Japanese but predominantly and Japan was were the Ninja operated and flourished (silently of course). This is however my very brief and general belief of the founding and early history of Ninjutsu. The fact that their is no recorded founder only a few "last ninja" makes it almost impossible to completely understand. These last few such as Fujita Seiko (who left no predecessor) and Toshitsugu Takamatsu (passed the Togakure-Ryu tradition of the Iga no Bushi to Masaaki Hatsumi) is all we have to learn from, apart from history books and old scrolls and documents of course.

However these are the only two known simply because they are the only two who "went public". I personally believe that there were others who passed away peacefully and quietly in Japan or even China with no intention of leaving their secrets behind.There may even be a few today who have ancient knowledge but keep it to themselves with a similiar lack of intention of exposing it. I think it would be foolish to rule out this possibility, but some may call me a fool.

I have briefly touched on a few of my many beliefs and i have given detail,but i will happily elaborate if someone wants to select a particular part/quote they are interested in. I have failed to list all the facts and theories which i harbour,like i said though,we would be here forever!!! Hope this is of some interest...

much respect
-andrew

[Kreth]

In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too.
and

And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?
Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked). The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.

But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp).
You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeff

[Enson]

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeffspeaking of which... what happened to don? he hasn't been active on the forum in some time. it looks like when micheal pearce joined and scolded them for insulting everyone he left. well that might not have been the reason but thats what it seems like. i just thought he would be all over this thread with sojobow in a choke hold already.
andrew... although you and others do play nice... some don't. i just used our names to not point anyone out specifically. a tip of leadership: "don't single out anyone as if in an attack." i'm in a leadership group and that is all i have been reading. anyway maybe that should be another style (leadership style).:ultracool
peace

[Genin Andrew]

Having Sojobow in a stranglehold? lol well i dont think Don can be bothered anymore. He has had many disputes with Sojobow in the past i think its got to the point where he realised he was fighting an endless battle. One can only continuously correct someone for so long, it can be exhausting and i'm sure Don is just waiting for this to all blow over... Hes made it clear he doesnt agree with Sojobow, whats the point of continuing?

The only reason I do is to try and help Sojobow understand why we believe what we do and why we would get a little frustrated with his beliefs...Its becoming easier because i can understand what hes saying now,but i agree to a very minimal extent.

much respect
-andrew

[Genin Andrew]

Just so i make sure i answer all your questions Sojobow, you asked why i study the sword? well...

First of all, understanding and learning to use the Japanese sword is an aspect of my art (Ninjukai) both the Shinogi Zukuri standard Katana and the Ninja-To straight blade, both are practiced. The wakizashi is also practiced although not as much as we apply the same techniques of the katana to the wakizashi (explains itself ).

Second, I am a traditionalist and understand the value in learning traditional weapons, not just for the fun and Historical side of it but because the traditional weapons such as the katana have techniques that can be applied to many random everyday objects, obviously not always "slice and dice" methods obviously.

Third, the Katana is an object of beauty,as anyone would know having seen a well made katana or even better seen it in use (properly). When i first got my katana (and still do) i just stare at it lol, when unsheathed and glistening in sunlight it is a sight that is very admirable and inspiring.The Japanese sword without doubt is a beautiful creation,that is why i am honored to learn and understand it.

And as you cleverly said Sojobow, I do not carry my blades around in the street, this is stupid let alone illegal. Although it would be humorous to see the looks i would get:) . I have a link to www.swordforum.com (http://www.swordforum.com) as part of my signature because it is a great website, well constructed, great information and just a great site,hope this is ok with you and i hope i have answered your question.

much respect
-andrew

[Kreth]

and the Ninja-To straight blade
You do know this sword is pretty much an invention of Hollywood, right? I like swordwork myself, but for practicality, I prefer stick fighting. Much easier to find a pool cue or broom handle when necessary than it is to find an old sword laying around... :samurai:

Jeff

[sojobow]

See, I knew you could do it. And, I also knew the base of your history thoughts. Your school is noted and I have no gripe with either. I just like others to point me in directions I may have missed. Assist in correcting thee dots. couple of questions raised.


To me Ninpo/Ninjutsu began its first stages of development in the mid to late 15th century. Ninpo was started by these lone family groups, and i think the natural environment around them inspired its development greatly. These families were made up of the Japanese farmers and oppressed social groups and also the Chinese, who fled their warring homeland.

It has been stated that there was a great Chinese influence in Ninpo/Ninjutsu, this i agree with. The Chinese contribution to the development of espionage in Japan had been rather substantial. The wandering Yamabushi and Shugenda who also made the infamous mountain regions their quiet home had a big influence on these families, I believe there was significant association with the groups,they learnt from eachother and adopted many different 'ways'. This is what made the Ninjutsu fighting arts so effective and well rounded not to mention "mysteriously unconventional".From what I've read (and believe) is that the Yamabushi and Shugenda philosophy(s) were evident in Japan as early as 7th or 8th Centuries which would indicate a much earlier beginning of the Ninja by 7 to 800 years. Thus, I would have a much different perspective. Not saying you are wrong, but just saying that we would have a difference in this history by a minimum of 800 years.

These last few such as Fujita Seiko (who left no predecessor) and Toshitsugu Takamatsu (passed the Togakure-Ryu tradition of the Iga no Bushi to Masaaki Hatsumi) is all we have to learn from, apart from history books and old scrolls and documents of course.Fujita Seiko is someone of interest. I have been looking into information available regarding this individual. Not him personally, but what he represented. So far of interest is that his Ryu is considered a proxy for all other Koga Ryu when, his Ryu is completely separate and independant of Koga Yamabushi Ryu and quite a number of others. Why the conclusion is stated that since he did not pass on his ryu all other Ryu of Koga could not have been passed on is interesting.

Also, it seems that Fujita was a "black op." This would indicate that the war art had remained alive and flouishing in Japan. Of interest if true.

Also of interest to me in reaching my "chinese connection" is the fact (I hope) that the Gyokko Ryu - Jewel Tiger School, Koto Ryu - Tiger knocking Down School and the Shinden Fudo Ryu - Immovable Heart School are Chinese Ryu seemingly developed centuries BEFORE Togakure-Ryu. Though not "Ninjutsu Ryu," this would indicate a Chinese influence long before the 15th Centurg. Inferences on my part and I'm sure Kreth will correct me on this point.


However these are the only two known simply because they are the only two who "went public". I personally believe that there were others who passed away peacefully and quietly in Japan or even China with no intention of leaving their secrets behind.There may even be a few today who have ancient knowledge but keep it to themselves with a similiar lack of intention of exposing it. I think it would be foolish to rule out this possibility, but some may call me a fool.You're not a fool (IMHO) as I've said the same thing. But these Soke and their schools are not recognized by many traditionalist as quite a few traditionalist can't understand why not. If these Soke did not "went public," the view is that they never existed in the first place.


Hope this is of some interest...much respect-andrewVery

[sojobow]

Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked). If I had said this, everything afterwards would be considered a lie by a few here. Why is it ok why you do it but I get 4 post calling me an idiot when I do it? No reply necessary but I just thought you'd see the problems I have.


The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact. JeffIn fairness, you didn't correct my musings as facts but actually "added" to my musings. Here's why:

You are correct in your reference to the Hun Bow useage on Horseback. As the Huns originated in the area now identified as being eastern Russia/Northern China/Mongolia, in order for the Huns to reach eastern Europe, they traveled on horseback. The Hun Bow may have also been used as their primary weapon because of its contruction, it's developed armor-penatrating power with much less drawing effort whether on horseback or not - another trait of the Ninja's Bow (Hun's did endeavor to invade Japan twice). If we look at the Samurai Bow, you'll see that their bow was much longer and also used on horseback as long as the enemy did not use guns.

[Cryozombie]

If I had said this, everything afterwards would be considered a lie by a few here. Why is it ok why you do it but I get 4 post calling me an idiot when I do it? No reply necessary but I just thought you'd see the problems I have.

I will answer...

When People like Kreth, Enson, Andrew, Don, Ralph... etc... say things...

They dont go "In fact Ninjas flew into war with Jet fighters" or "The Alaskin Eskimo Spear is actually a Yari, so Eskimos are therefore Ninja" or "The Predator has a shuriken, so the Predator are ninjas" and typically DO back up their posts with verifible fact when asked, instead of changing the subject or adding more conjecture... theirfore, when they say, "I dont have it in front of me right now" we give them the benefit of the doubt that they arent making random crap up to try and support some silly notion that they came up with.

[sojobow]

- another trait of the Ninja's Bow (Hun's did endeavor to invade Japan twice). Thanks for not biting my head off on this one guys. It was the Khans and not the Huns that endeavored to invade Japan twice.

[sojobow]

I will answer...

When People like Kreth, Enson, Andrew, Don, Ralph... etc... say things...

They dont go "In fact Ninjas flew into war with Jet fighters" or "The Alaskin Eskimo Spear is actually a Yari, so Eskimos are therefore Ninja" or "The Predator has a shuriken, so the Predator are ninjas" and typically DO back up their posts with verifible fact when asked, instead of changing the subject or adding more conjecture... theirfore, when they say, "I dont have it in front of me right now" we give them the benefit of the doubt that they arent making random crap up to try and support some silly notion that they came up with.Point taken. Do you practice budo taijutsu?

[Genin Andrew]

Kreth, lol I am aware that the ninja-to is a "creation of hollywood" how can i not be!...but...

Hollywood didnt create the sword they just gave it strong association with the ninja. It was a way to show contrast between samurai and ninja,ninja straight blades and samurai adopted curved blades. It was used to highlight the difference, like in modern computer games, two opposing forces red team and blue team for example. However there is some historical fact.

Straight bladed swords were definately used in Japan. That is fact. Straight bladed swords are known as choku-to styles. But many refer to them as "ninja sword" which is incorrect. Another interesting little moderation is the 'square tsuba' which is commonly associated with "ninja swords". Again square tsubas did obviously exist but whether they were a trademark of the ninja is beyond me and i am not one to say. It is interesting though that in the Iga-Ninja museum http://www.iganinja.jp/english/menu.html they have a straight bladed square tsuba sword supposedly used by ninja, but it is more accurately known to have been more a tool than a combat weapon, but then so were the Sai and Kama. So theres alot of evidence for the ninja straight blade and against. Ninjutsu schools today still use the ninja-to even SKH has publisized it in his books, so personally i dont like to state that the ninja-to is strictly a fantasy creation, i am still undecided with what i believe on the matter.

Theres a good/common article on the topic not sure whether you have already read it... http://swordforum.com/sfu/primer/ninjasword.html

Just lastly one of the most intetesting images i've seen is that on the Fujita Seiko site there is a picture of Fujita (from his book Donronron: Saiga no Ninja) in shinobi shozoku dark garb,hooded with a katana...and the katana has a square tsuba!...its hard to tell from that pic but its obvious when enlarged.I found that interesting :) http://fujitaseiko.tripod.com/page1.html

much respect
-andrew

[Don Roley]

speaking of which... what happened to don? he hasn't been active on the forum in some time.

I traveled overseas for training in a non-Japanese art. It was quite fun and informative.

Now that I am back and looking over these threads, I see that no one of any importance is taking Sojobow seriously. He seems to be considered a rather large joke now and there is little need to counter his points to stop the spread of bad information. Kreth pointed out just one thing of how he claims the Mongols used a ninja like bow, but the Japanese verison is quite different. Sojobow's response was rather amusing, but did not really deal with the point. Big surprise. With that type of thing going on, no one with any brains is going to take the historical revisions of Sojobow with any seriousness.

[Kizaru]

Dear Mr. Don Roley,

One of these kids is not like the other,
One of these kids is doing his own thing....

Amazing what one can learn on "Sesame Street".

[sojobow]

I traveled overseas for training in a non-Japanese art. It was quite fun and informative. Kreth pointed out just one thing of how he claims the Mongols used a ninja like bow, but the Japanese verison is quite different.
I wouldn't doubt this in the least. Mine is not a Japanese version. We'd like to hear/read your Japanese version. Really. So, post it.


no one with any brains is going to take the historical revisions of Sojobow with any seriousness.
Then why do you keep looking up what I say/write?

My "historical revisions" are only a work-in-progress. Therefore, it is only sojobow that should take his "historical revisions" with any seriousness. Anyone wishing a "history" should get their own. With the help of those posting their own takes, I have learned a lot and my "revisions" are being "revised" or "codified" to me.

I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best). Good conversation stuff, but as far as practical use, the history is really not very important. The whole aspect can be written in less that 4 pages. Read 3 books and you've got it. The rest - train and do.

[Genin Andrew]

"I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best). Good conversation stuff, but as far as practical use, the history is really not very important. The whole aspect can be written in less that 4 pages. Read 3 books and you've got it. The rest - train and do."

I think you'll find that you cant really say that as a general statement, that varies from person to person. Some indulge themselves in the history and cant wait to learn more about the beginnings of their art, while others couldnt care less they just wanna wear a hood and learn how to flip out. Then theirs the guys in between, they are interested in the history but dont want to get caught up in it,they just want to train...and flip out.

Sojobow, write the history of ninpo/ninjutsu in 4 pages? i would love to see that, when you write a 4 page summary that covers "the whole apect" please be sure to post it. I started a short history a while ago and it made 9 pages and it was VERY general and summarized...you do mean 4 A4 pages right???

much respect
-andrew

[Kreth]

I am also developing the opinion that the importance of this "history" - on a scale of 1 to 10, is very low (2 - 3 at best).
From an effectiveness standpoint, no, history is not all that important. However, if you're going to claim lineage back to Japan, then history becomes quite important.

Jeff

[Enson]

Then theirs the guys in between, they are interested in the history but dont want to get caught up in it,they just want to train...and flip out.much respect
-andrewi would be one of those guys. but i tend to flip out more than train. still working on dicsipline.:ultracool
i agree if you want to proclaim history back to japan then it should match up with what history says. i don't remember seeing fighter jets in the history books of 15-17th century topic.:idunno:
just be honest. if you don't know then just say it. don't counter with more horrible information. thats just my take on things.
peace

[sojobow]

From an effectiveness standpoint, no, history is not all that important. However, if you're going to claim lineage back to Japan, then history becomes quite important.JeffI agree. One thing I like about this new subsection is that lineage back to Japan is not relavent. As you've noticed, I have mentioned China quite a bit and I kind of lean in that direction for now. Could change later.

[sojobow]

Sojobow, write the history of ninpo/ninjutsu in 4 pages?
Don't know much about ninpo/ninjutsu. Learning more about ninho/Ninjitsu. Ninjutsu history belongs in the other subsection. Sort of like apples and oranges. two different subjects and we seem to keep mixing the two up.


i would love to see that, when you write a 4 page summary that covers "the whole apect" please be sure to post it. I started a short history a while ago and it made 9 pages and it was VERY general and summarized...you do mean 4 A4 pages right??? much respect -andrew
Actually, the best "history" on Ninjitsu I've seen so far was presented on one single page. It was presented in a flow chart / organization chart format. Depends also on who the subject is being presented to. Most likely Kreth and Don would not need any elaboration. I did mean 4 pages.

[sojobow]

i don't remember seeing fighter jets in the history books of 15-17th century topic.:idunno:
Me neither. But I have seen Jet Fighters in the 21st Century which is the era of the discussion. They are weapons necessitating the use of Strategy. Hard to see for some - very elementary for others. If a Ninja was a master at any one thing, it is Strategy. He may not have mastered every weapon classified as "Ninja Weapons." But one thing all Ninja have in common is that they are masters of Strategy.

[Kreth]

I agree. One thing I like about this new subsection is that lineage back to Japan is not relavent. As you've noticed, I have mentioned China quite a bit and I kind of lean in that direction for now. Could change later.
So since your teacher's lineage to Japan has been pretty much disproven you're going with the China angle? That's how this reads to me...

Actually, the best "history" on Ninjitsu I've seen so far was presented on one single page. It was presented in a flow chart / organization chart format. Depends also on who the subject is being presented to. Most likely Kreth and Don would not need any elaboration. I did mean 4 pages.
Actually Don is much more knowledgeable than I am. I just point out the really big holes in your posts.

Jeff

[sojobow]

So since your teacher's lineage to Japan has been pretty much disproven you're going with the China angle? That's how this reads to me...Oh Boy. The Talibans have struck again!!!!!!!!!

How it reads is quite clear; sojobow thinketh that Ninjitsuism may have originated in China-ith. But, sinceth you have these personal issues with someone elseth and not I'eth, why don't you go and take it up with them-eth? As stated, the "lineage to Japan" thing you and others have is really of no matter. You may take your Taliban attitudes elsewhere.


Actually Don is much more knowledgeable than I am. I just point out the really big holes in your posts. JeffYour life's ambitions are noted and evident. Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.

[Kreth]

Oh Boy. The Talibans have struck again!!!!!!!!!
You go off your meds again?

Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.
And lack of both definitely makes you amusing.

Jeff

[Don Roley]

Knowledge without common sense can be lethal.

Boy, what a nasty comment! Are you saying that Kreth has no comon sense? And the comments abotu the Taliban are right up there when you tried saying anyone who disagreed with you was racist.

I think I should point out that it is common sense to not try to make a connection between bow types just because both are short. After all, the ninja bow was short and so was the Mongol bow. But the Mongol bow was made with horn, recurved, etc while the ninja bow was not. It is only common sense to look deeper into something rather than try to make a case for a connection based on very little information. It is common sense to realize that some bows are going to be short for different reasons- like skulking around or using on a horse.

So, who is lacking common sense?

And who is going on about how they are "modern" but spending the most time writting silly theories about history?

[sojobow]

Boy, what a nasty comment! Are you saying that Kreth has no comon sense? And the comments abotu the Taliban are right up there when you tried saying anyone who disagreed with you was racist.
Nope. The common sense attribute was meant for someone else. You'l figure it out. Like the Taliban who thought man should still live in the dark ages because of tradition, some members seem to have this same thought process. Thus, Taliban.


I think I should point out that it is common sense to not try to make a connection between bow types just because both are short. After all, the ninja bow was short and so was the Mongol bow. But the Mongol bow was made with horn, recurved, etc while the ninja bow was not. It is only common sense to look deeper into something rather than try to make a case for a connection based on very little information. It is common sense to realize that some bows are going to be short for different reasons- like skulking around or using on a horse.The reference to my post regarding length had to do with differentiating between the Samurai Bow and the Ninja Bow. I did not want to infer that these two Bows looked the same. It you remove the blinders, you'l note that I AGREED with Kreth regarding the Bows and only ADDED an additional reason for its usage. Yes, the Mongol Bow you are speaking of incorporated horn, additional inversions, etc. But somehow you missed the point that the ORIGINAL bows were the same. You're comparing a two different bows. By the time Attilla came of age, the Mongol composit bow had developed or evolved in construction. The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.


And who is going on about how they are "modern" but spending the most time writting silly theories about history?What I am looking for is the reason the artform's creation which will assist me in my own martial development. If I know what was the purpose of its creation, I'll understand a lot better because I will know the Core Manifistations.

Actually, silly or not, I am the only one who has posted a reason why Ninjitsu might have originated. Some have said that Ninjutsu originated in Japan in the year 1,500. Easy to drop a year, but no one has posted what happened in 1,500 a.d. or shortly before, that resulted in the creation of Ninjutsu in Japan. Martial Arts, as in most things related to man and the environment, came about for a reason whether we're talking about the theory of evolution or the theory of the evolution of war. So, silly as I may be, I did base my hypotheses on a historical event (chinese warring state period) and the resulting development of Strategist. Eagerly awaiting the reason why the Japanese created Ninjutsu. What happened 'in Japan' that necessitated the creation of an all new martial arts system previously non-existing anywhere else in the entire world at that particular time?

Whatever you and those "in Japan" post will not be looked upon as 'silly' but will be appreciated for its pedagogical purpose. We await.

[Kreth]

The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.
Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references.

Jeff

[althaur]

Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references.

Jeff
I wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. :bs: :rofl:

[sojobow]

Source? Include page numbers, please. If you're going to keep throwing this tripe out, I want references. Jeff
Where are yours?

[Cryozombie]

Hehe. That dude keeps taking about himself in the third person.

Dux.

[Kreth]

Where are yours?
I haven't been throwing out my daydreams as fact. If you want page numbers and references for anything I've stated, please quote the specific item. In the mean time, please provide verifiable references for anything you state as fact.

Jeff

[sojobow]

I haven't been throwing out my daydreams as fact. If you want page numbers and references for anything I've stated, please quote the specific item. In the mean time, please provide verifiable references for anything you state as fact.

JeffSure you have and no I want unless I chose to. Example: Where would someone go to "see" an 800-900 year old artifact? Where would someone go to see the oldest Sword excavated in Japan? Where would someone go to see the artifacts of Mongolia or of the Huns or of the Khans or the display of a Ninja Bow?. Sometimes we get tired of answering questions for the sake of answering questions. Saw recently an interesting display of anchient african weapons - On-line in France (Louv...)

[Don Roley]

Sure you have and no I want unless I chose to.

And of course, you can't provide a link to where Kreth supposably made some sort of unverifiable claim as you do so often.

The regulars of this forum all seem to have your number. You throw things out as if you were an expert, and when called for proof you evade and throw out more unverifiable fantasies to confuse the issue. My only concern is that there are new people all the time and people who don't bother to read these forums all that much and do not know just how low everyone holds you in their esteem or how often you have been proven to be less than reliable.

[sojobow]

And of course, you can't provide a link to where Kreth supposably made some sort of unverifiable claim as you do so often.

The regulars of this forum all seem to have your number. You throw things out as if you were an expert, and when called for proof you evade and throw out more unverifiable fantasies to confuse the issue. My only concern is that there are new people all the time and people who don't bother to read these forums all that much and do not know just how low everyone holds you in their esteem or how often you have been proven to be less than reliable.But I constantly prove that you are wrong again and again. Here is Kreths link. I'll highlight his "unverifiable claim" just for you. And, FYI, we all thank you for your self-imposed Martialtalk Police and Moderator. Here it is: #68
================================================== =========
Quote:
Originally Posted by snowjob
In all seriousness because I do feel you and I (even Andrew too) can participate in a good civil dialogue, please feel free to point out the gaping holes in my "historical summaries." This "pointing out" is what I am really looking forward too.


and
Quote:
And how-the-heck did the Huns end up with the Bow of the Ninja as their primary weapon since Japan was a closed/secret society at the time?

Here's a quick example, as I'm at work and don't have any references available (note: I don't consider a website a reliable reference unless it can be cross-checked). The Hun bow was an assymetric, composite bow designed for use from horseback. Are you saying this legendary "Bow of the Ninja" was a horseman's bow? What source do you have for this bow? One of Tom Brown's survival students can probably teach you to make a snap bow that vaguely resembles the Hun bow. That does not make them the same.
Quote:
But, at least, ADD SOMETHING (hopefully, other than the usual useless pomp).

You see, myself, Don, and others are adding to the discussion by correcting the musings you post as fact.

Jeff
__________________
Jeff Velten

================================================== ========
Again, the bow may have been used while on horse back but the primary advantage in its design was its armour penitrating stength with far less effort in loading/pulling it. Less effort - more and faster distructive power. The same bow was also used by the Sulsa of Korea, the Ninja of Japan as well as the Hums. Now that you bring this up again, think I'll look into whether the Bow of the Chinese was also this same configuration. Interesting stuff - to me.

An honest viewer will easily see that it is you, and not I, that has a problem. I understand your taking up for your buddy. Its cool with me but tell the truth sometimes!!!!!. I know, he was at work then. Evidently he must still be at work since I asked him more than once afterward to "show me." It's still his turn. You may help him again if you feel it necessary.

As far as your "low esteem" statement, thanks for the points. I need them but I do have those that hold me in high esteem. They are who matters to me. Don't even know your ficticious coharts.

[Don Roley]

But I constantly prove that you are wrong again and again. Here is Kreths link. I'll highlight his "unverifiable claim" just for you. And, FYI, we all thank you for your self-imposed Martialtalk Police and Moderator. Here it is: #68

Boy, you had to search for that didn't you? You didn't ask him straight off, just when your back was to the corner. Well, even I can tell you a source for that. Go to Stephen Turnbull's work on the Mongols for Osprey and look at the color plates and you will find a reference for what Kreth said. That was easy.

Now you can stop avoiding the subject and give a source for the following little distraction you tried to throw out.



The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.


Author, publisher and section/ page number of course.

Of course, I doubt you can. And I call everyone's attention to the fact that there will be no source that anyone else can look up to as exacting a degree as I just gave.

I expect a lot more insults from Sojobow in the near future. It is easier that dealing with facts for him and giving references. We will see posts by him saying that other people lie, that they are bigoted, etc. And everyone who has read the threads on e-budo knows just how accurate my predictions of Sojobow's behavior has been.

[Kizaru]

I salute and bow to the owners and moderators of this Forum for enabling those of us, not involved in pure tyranny, a place to discuss a viable worthwhile martial science. *Salute*
I also would like to start here, a discussion of the history of Ninjitsu.
Sojobou, thank you for your posts up to this point, they have been interesting as well as enlightening.

I too believe that the bow the ninja usd was exactly the same as the bow used by the Mongolian horsemen. I believe that there were Russian ninja existing at the same time as Japanese ninja.

I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.

Gassho.

[AaronLucia]

Let's be nice kids..

[Kizaru]

Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.


Example: Where would someone go to "see" an 800-900 year old artifact? I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City.

Where would someone go to see the oldest Sword excavated in Japan? I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki.


Where would someone go to see the artifacts of Mongolia
A Mongolian friend of mine has told me that there's a museum in Ulan Bataar, the capitol of Mongolia, that has alot of old artifacts. I haven't been yet, but plan on going someday.


or the display of a Ninja Bow?. There's a museum in Nagano ken, Togakushi village, Japan, that has a museum with at least one "ninja bow" that I remember seeing. I believe that the "Iga Ueno Ninja Museum" in Japan has one as well, but I haven't been there yet to see for myself.


Sometimes we get tired of answering questions for the sake of answering questions. Yes, but don't you believe that each generation needs to re-discover what the previous generation has learned?


Saw recently an interesting display of anchient african weapons - On-line in France (Louv...) Good to see that you are doing homework!

Thank you for the opportunity to add to this discussion, I applaud Sojobow for putting his ideas out in public, it takes confidence to open yourself up to criticism. There's alot of misconception when it comes to these things, and I think it's good to have different perspectives in one place so people can judge for themselves.

Gassho.:asian:

[sojobow]

Go to Stephen Turnbull's work on the Mongols for Osprey and look at the color plates and you will find a reference for what Kreth said. That was easy.
Thanx. That was all I asked for and it makes no difference as to who presented the info. I will find Mr. Turnbull's work and read it. I also must Bow to Kreth. I was not asking him for any type of "proof" for what he said, I was asking so that I might find our more about these Bows. I actually see 5 Bows used in different regions and find this interesting (Huns, Khans, Ninja, Sulsa, Chinese). FY 100 b.c. to about 800 a.d.. But, some here propose that the Ninja didn't exist until 1500 a.d. and the Sulsa 100-600 a.d. so a Ninja Bow in 400 or 600 a.d. wouldn't make sense to them. As you know, I believe the Ninja existed well before these time periods thus, we have a conflict that can't be resolved between those two beliefs.


Now you can stop avoiding the subject and give a source for the following little distraction you tried to throw out.
Wasn't a distraction. Actually, it is 3 sources you are asking for as the Hun's were not Mongolian. At least I hope i'm correct on this point so I was wondering why Kreth was asking me for a source for a Mongolian Bow.


I expect a lot more insults from Sojobow in the near future. It is easier that dealing with facts for him and giving references. We will see posts by him saying that other people lie, that they are bigoted, etc. And everyone who has read the threads on e-budo knows just how accurate my predictions of Sojobow's behavior has been.
You will see no further insults from me directing to anyone so your recruiting effort is of no importance as far as I'm concerned.

Thanx for the heads-up. On to Mr. Turnbull's work. Let you know what I find. C U.

[sojobow]

Sojobou, thank you for your posts up to this point, they have been interesting as well as enlightening.

I too believe that the bow the ninja usd was exactly the same as the bow used by the Mongolian horsemen. I believe that there were Russian ninja existing at the same time as Japanese ninja.
You're quite welcome. I'm learning. Got myself in trouble with the "Russian Ninja." Austrailian Ninja didn't appreciate it. But, thus far, the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time. The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English. But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.


I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.
Me too.

[sojobow]

Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.

I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City. I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki. Gassho.:asian:
Were any of the Swords you held considered "Ninja" Swords? Thanks for an excellent post.

[Don Roley]

But, thus far, the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time. The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English. But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.

Let us get this straight. You just were shown as being a liar about the relationship between Mongol Bows and the ones used by ninja (BTW another source that proves you wrong- the Nov/Dec 1991 issue of Command Magazine page 4) and you just pile on more historical fanstasy without even an attempt at a reference.

You can't scream about being prosecuted to the moderators this time. We are only showing that your sources are non-existent, your statements contradict established facts and you make no sense logically. By making such staments, you open yourself open to the bloodletting that is going on now. Everyone knows you are troll and no one seems to be takening you seriously. Enjoy.
:flame:

[sojobow]

Let us get this straight. You just were shown as being a liar about the relationship between Mongol Bows and the ones used by ninja (BTW another source that proves you wrong- the Nov/Dec 1991 issue of Command Magazine page 4) and you just pile on more historical fanstasy without even an attempt at a reference.
Give it a rest Please. you constantly call me a liar about a Mongol Bow. The conversation is question between someone else and myself is regarding a Hun Bow. Not a Mongol Bow. We can expand the conversation if you wish to include a Mongol Bow, a Sulsa Bow, and a Chinese Bow.

Thanx.

[Don Roley]

Give it a rest Please. you constantly call me a liar about a Mongol Bow.

Because you did lie knowingly about the Mongol bow. The Mongols invaded Japan, or at least tried to, and you commented on how the Mongol bow was similar to the bow used by the ninja.

Except the nasty little fact that the Mongol bow (again using the Command article from 1991) used wood, sinew and horn in it's contstruction. But the bow used by the ninja, known as the hankyu, was nothing more than a half sized version of the standard bow, and I dare you to find a LEGITIMATE source that says the standard samurai bow used those items.

If anyone thinks that sojobow is a trustworthy source for information, please speak up now. If you think he is a joke, then just keep quiet and enjoy the show. You can't say we are prosecuting him snce the subject mater is about such things as the bow used by the ninja- which he has so far refused to show even one source of proof to.

[sojobow]

Because you did lie knowingly about the Mongol bow. The Mongols invaded Japan, or at least tried to, and you commented on how the Mongol bow was similar to the bow used by the ninja.

Except the nasty little fact that the Mongol bow (again using the Command article from 1991) used wood, sinew and horn in it's contstruction. But the bow used by the ninja, known as the hankyu, was nothing more than a half sized version of the standard bow, and I dare you to find a LEGITIMATE source that says the standard samurai bow used those items.

I'll say this and then I'm finished with this subject (we hope). We were discussing the events which brought about the "Ninja." I hope to get back to the origins of the Ninja and not who used what Bow during 1000 years of evolution. I am also glad to see you researching what I say. You and I will both learn something I hope.

The Hun, prior to their entry into the Roman Empire, used a Reflex Bow. The Mongols used a Reflex Bow. The ancient Chinese used a Reflex Bow. The Sulsa of Korea (Korean Ninja) used a Reflex Bow. The Ninja of Japan, used a Reflex Bow. The Reflex Bow was invented in Asia (by the Chinese - Chou Dynasty) and used throughtout the Asian continent. All of these Bow were made of wood, sinew and horn.

The Composit Bow was not developed until later (about 400 AD by Attila's Hun after they moved into the Roman Empire. The Huns developed and used a lamenating process, a tortured wood process, bone and horn. Before then, the Hun, being Nomads, used the Reflex Bow (while in Asia) and not the Composit Bow (until reaching the Roman Empire).

The Samurai used an altogether different Bow during a later time period. Much longer/taller than the Ninja Bow.

As Attila's Huns when reaching Western Europe and the Roman Empire, as stated, they developed a Composit Bow. Kreth was correct in that it was developed partially because of the development of the Sturips (those things you put your feet in while riding a horse) and also because the bow developed much more power with the same pull as the Reflex Bow. I have no idea why you would want me to find a source for the samurai bow as you state. I have never said the samurai bow was the same as any other. Although, now that you mention it, I wouldn't be surprised in finding the older/first of the samurai used the Reflex bow.

Again, congratulations with you new research. Keep looking, you'll eventually find something I said is incorrect. I have no doubt. Hope everyone gets on your side so you'll stop and allow us the continue with items of interest. If it helps you, I'll vote to be on your side.

Again. Kreth and I were discussing the Hun and not the Mongol. Kreth was speaking of 400 a.d.. I was speaking of 100 years earlier. He, as I stated, was correct.

[Don Roley]

And of course, there is not one single source of reference for all that dribble that Sojobow just wrote. Anyone that bothers to research into the subject of history will realize just how hysterical Sojobow's writings about the subject are. Those who do not have the time or interest can merely look at the fact that he lists nothing that they can check out for themselves.

Hence the reason why we laugh at him so much.

[Seig]

Take the pissing match offline. If you want to disprove something, do it with fact, not commentary.

Seig
MT OPS Admin

[Don Roley]

If you want to disprove something, do it with fact, not commentary.

Is it not the other way around? I mean, should it not be that if you want to
prove something you do it with facts- facts that can be checked, instead of fancy stories that have no basis in reality?

[Kizaru]

My original post was in multiple parts, as responses to Sojobow's questions. Strung together as one, it gets easy to mis-read. Originally I had written:


Originally Posted by Kizaru
Some difficult questions, I hope that my answer can be of some service.

Written in response to a string of questions posted by Sojobow.



I've held 900 to 1,000 year old swords at Mr. Matsumoto's antique shop in Noda City.
Written in response to something like, "where could you go to see a 1,000 year old artifact"



I could be mistaken, but I think it's at the Kashima Shrine in Ibaraki..
Writen in response to "where is the oldest sword in Japan".


Were any of the Swords you held considered "Ninja" Swords? Thanks for an excellent post.

To answer the current question, I was told by the shop owner, who is quite knowledgable, that any sword held by a "ninja" would be a "ninja" sword. I was told that there was no specific design for a "Ninja Sword", depending on ryu ha some were long, some were shorter; just like with the Samurai, some had blades longer than 73cm, some were shorter, depended on the ryu ha and the person. Back to the original question, if a sword was made 1,000 years ago, and was used by a "ninja" in say the 1600's (around the time when ninjutsu was born in Japan) , would that make it a "ninja sword"? Would the next person using it care?

[Kizaru]

the only name I have is that the Yamamoto Family taught it to the Russian Royal Ivans at one time. Yamamoto "Family"? Yamamoto is a pretty common name in Japan. Assuming that anyone in Japan named "Yamamoto" knows ninjutsu would be like assuming any one named "Kennedy" would be related to the former American president with the same name.


The Yamamote Family originally lived near Kyoto. Hard to get the full story as the source is in Russian and I only speak 2 languages - English and Bad English.If the "source" is only in Russian, how do you communicate with the source?


But I'll make sense of it sooner than later. I also understand that there are references to ancient Ninja in Russia in some Russian Govenrment's Archives.I find that extremely difficult to believe. You should double check whoever is telling you these things, they may not be entirely truthful with you.

Quote:
I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids.
Me too.

"YOU CAN LIVE ON FISHES, BUT YA CAN'T LIVE ON WISHES" -Pee Wee Herman

[BoneBreaker]

It seems nothing sojobow has said in regards to this thread is entirely impossible. It seems he would be the one interested if a sword had ever been wielded by an Ancient Ninja. It seems he is interested , and wants to find out if some asian guy showed a russian guy some MA's a long time ago. I think because of his nature, Sojobow brings out the worst in good people such as Don Roley and others. I personally respect Sojobow's passion. It is interesting. He is respectful under fire. There is no documentation presented as of yet that can prove it is true or not true essentially. This is the credo of his style. It is built entirely around the same concept. I fail to understand some people's insistence and or persistence regarding this matter. If you do not believe it, why comment. Would you know truth regarding this matter if it bit you? I doubt anyone would.

[sojobow]

Yamamoto "Family"? Yamamoto is a pretty common name in Japan. Assuming that anyone in Japan named "Yamamoto" knows ninjutsu would be like assuming any one named "Kennedy" would be related to the former American president with the same name.

If the "source" is only in Russian, how do you communicate with the source?

I find that extremely difficult to believe. You should double check whoever is telling you these things, they may not be entirely truthful with you.

Quote:
I also believe in the Easter Bunny, Santa Clause and that aliens built the Egyptian pyramids. Me too.
The source is a text written/translated into English. Broken English. Thanks. Actually, the source of the writing is not quite clear to me. I am looking further into maybe a "motive" behind his writing on the subject. It looks or sounds like a number of Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu dojos had opened in Russia's capital and the gentleman was writing about his displeasure with what he considers a fake art and not worthy of the Russian peoples interest. This, he makes statements (in very broken English) like (paraphrasing): "just because some Ninja family named yamamoto from Kyoto came to Russia and taught the ancient Ivans his art, doesn't mean this artform still exist. Then, the Yamamoto's disappeared." In fact, reading more closely, the writing says "some nicks with names like Yamamoto of Kyoto" or something like this which would indicate the more than one "Ninja Family" visited Russia. It's like the article/letter was inadvertently listed once found (accidentally released).

He seem very knowedgeable about Ninjutsu as he mentions what sources one should concentrate on when studing Ninjutsu History, a couple of books written by Samurai on Ninjutsu techniques etc. He's done some research.

[sojobow]

Kreth:

Actually what is interesting about the Bow subject is that I originally misinterpreted two pictures of the Bows. I see the Ninja Bow then see the Hun Bow and mistakenly concluded that the Hun must have had a relationship with Ninja. When, more close to the truth was that the Bow was 500 years old (at that time) and was used throughout Asia as far south as Tibet, India, Sri Lanka (sp.l). Its kind of like the Sword. Once the forging techniques were codified, everyone picked up on it.

But, I still believe that the Ninja profession began during the chinese warring state period and ended up in Japan by way of migration from china to korea to Japan. Ninjutsu (a basic amalgamation of arts and sciences) may be indeed a Japanese Creation but the Profession of Ninja is not. Just my opinion.

[Seig]

Is it not the other way around? I mean, should it not be that if you want to
prove something you do it with facts- facts that can be checked, instead of fancy stories that have no basis in reality?Don,
While I understand your point, one cannot prove a negative. This is going into the realm of dogged fraud busting. If the claims are fanciful, and I am not commenting either way, won't they prove themselves out?
Seig

[Genin Andrew]

I personally dont believe alot of what Sojobow says, which is why i am not one of those to jump up and call him a reliable source like Don called for.

I post because i like to counter what he says and see how he responds, I dont have anything against him personally just his take on history...I'm sure if he read a few decent history books his posts would be almost of value.

[sojobow]

I personally dont believe alot of what Sojobow says, which is why i am not one of those to jump up and call him a reliable source like Don called for.

I post because i like to counter what he says and see how he responds, I dont have anything against him personally just his take on history...I'm sure if he read a few decent history books his posts would be almost of value.
I neither claim to know of a Ninjutsu history nor am I a source for Ninjutsu History. But, I am very interested in the Ninja and its evolution up to today. I have noticed that these "history" books are either written by someone lineagely associated with Budo-Taijutsu which present a constant slant and those people not associated with Budo-Taijutsu who have written their books on Ninjutsu with quite a different slant. To juxtapose these two schools of thought and determind if there are similarities will lead on to believe that personal adgendas are involved. I have come to the opinion that books on Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu have little interest compared to books on Ninja. Two different histories. I don't think anyone - including me - actually knows for sure. So, I'll take the word of my teachers as being the most reliable.

Howz about posting a couple of references you'd suggest I read?

[Don Roley]

Don,
While I understand your point, one cannot prove a negative.

Huh?

If someone says with a voice of authority that the ninja/ mongol/ sulsa, etc used the same kind of bow, then they should be able to provide some sort of proof that they did. There should be books and page numbers.

Trying to prove a negative is what you are asking US to do to counter the tons of bad historical information Sojobow is tossing out there. How do we PROVE that the bow used by the Mongols changed after they moved west when there is no source that backs up what sojobow says AFAIK. It is like saying that just because no one wrote down that the Easter Bunny WAS NOT at the court of King Richard, that we can't prove it was not.

So if Sojobow or anyone says something, it should be their burden to prove it. "Proving a negative" is what you are asking people to do when you say they much shoot down such weird stories that are not backed up by any sources.

[Kreth]

I know, [Kreth] was at work then. Evidently he must still be at work since I asked him more than once afterward to "show me." It's still his turn. You may help him again if you feel it necessary.
I'm sorry, I was off for the weekend doing "real life" (TM) stuff. I saw no reason to post references, as Don did so. But, since you made the request, here are my sources:
Gorin no Sho - Miyamoto Musashi
Art of War - Sun Tzu
Samurai Warfare - Stephen Turnbull
Ninja: The Invisible Assassins - Andrew Adams
To Kill a Mockingbird - Harper Lee
The DaVinci Code - Dan Brown
The Art of the Matrix - Andy and Larry Wachowski

I won't provide page numbers, as I'm sure any interested parties in the discussion are already familiar with these standard texts...

Jeff

[sojobow]

Huh?

If someone says with a voice of authority that the ninja/ mongol/ sulsa, etc used the same kind of bow, then they should be able to provide some sort of proof that they did. There should be books and page numbers.

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. There are websites that discuss the bows from a point of view of a hobbist (these guys make the weapon and include the history just for fun). I gave my opinion. all you need do is draw down a picture from a website and discuss it. You don't have to go buy a book when the pictures are very abundant right here on the web. But, I understand. It's me, not what I say, that you have the problem with. Such a waste.

[Don Roley]

There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web.

And if that was so, you could post a link, like many of us do. And if you did, we could evalutate the source- see if it is a respectable source, or Ashida Kim's web site. (Which, incidently, is the only site that agreed with your statement about there ever being a Black Dragon Tong in Japan.)

Since you can not find even a single source to back up your numerous claims, the logical thing to assume is that you do not know what you are talking about and are trying to confuse the issue while tearing down history to suit your purposes.

[Genin Andrew]

[QUOTE=sojobow]There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. QUOTE]

Sojobow when you say things like this its only logical to provide examples, if there are "thousands" of sites surely you can provide at least 1...Take note, its these type of comments that get people on your back. Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about.

I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest.

-andrew

[sojobow]

[QUOTE=sojobow]There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web. QUOTE]

Sojobow when you say things like this its only logical to provide examples, if there are "thousands" of sites surely you can provide at least 1...Take note, its these type of comments that get people on your back. Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about.

I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest.-andrewI answered this before you asked. Keep listening to "the Don's." They'll make sure you learn nothing. Now, it's time for "the Don's" to show me theirs and something of substance from you would be nice.

2 words - 50,030 hits but you guys can't do it.

http://www.grozerarchery.com/g/sl/5.gif
http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/7/warriors.html Despite all the efforts of the Chinese emperors to keep the secret of making arms by prohibiting the sale of any metals to the northern neighbors, nomads learned how to melt metals and make own ar
http://www.grozerarchery.com/bows_intro.htm
Most of the bows introduced below have been used in the Carpathian basin (Hungary) . They mostly were traditional eastern bows, the so-called rigid tipped compound reflex bows. Certain types of bows were named after the people who had used them.
http://www.allempires.com/empires/huns/huns1.htm "The Hun's Military"
http://www.archery2000.co.uk/traditional_bows.htm Korean, Mongol, Hun bows - all Reflex
http://www.mongoliatoday.com/issue/7/warriors.html Note "chinese emperior's efforts to keep secrets.....
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Huns The Hun Bow is an asymmetric , composit and reflex Bow.
http://www.bowstick.com/mongolian.html Composite Bows represent the top of the line Reflex Bows
http://www.archerysociety.org/bows.html Magyar's Reflex Compound Bows (Note: Magyars = Huns) Bow also used by Mongols.

You might also want to read Sun Tzu: The Art of War, Samuel B. Griffith's Introduction, Chapter III, The Warring States et sequel and Translation, Chapter 13. You should then be able to articulate why Ninja was invented and what a Ninja actually is. If you are unable to comprehend what is written, I'd suggest you take up NikeJutsu and leave war arts to the warriors. The is a short list of other text, but if all of you don't understand this one, why bother with the next 2.

Answer before questioned.

[Don Roley]

Nice attempt at diversion but you were talking about how the bows used by the Mongols were the same as the ones used by the Sulsa, Ninja, etc. You have failed to show a source for that theory- just stuff on the Mongol bow and NOTHING on how it resembles the bows used by the ninja, etc.

So, we all knew that the Mongols used composite reflex bows. No one was disputing that if you bother to read the posts. It is the fact that their construction materials, construction methods, etc were different from Japan is what you are trying to avoid. The Mongols used horn in their bows for one thing (Command Magazine Nov-Dec 1991 page 4) and the bows used in Japan did not. Show me a source that says that Japanese bows use by ninja used horn or shared signifigent charecteristics with the Mongol bows other than being short.

Oh, and before you scream at me to list MY sources, take a look at page 148 of History and Tradition for a picture of the ninja bow and compare it with the Mongol bow posted above. Also pages 149, 150 and 195. It does not take much to see that the bows bare little in common with the Mongol bow other than being short.

And while you are finished with that, get some sources for the existence of the Black Dragon TONG :rolleyes: in Japan, a GOOD source that says ninja used ancient, straight swords (or existed as a group called "ninja" when the Chinese swords were current issue) and sources for everything else you have been spewing out.

It is intersting to note how you started at the top of this page by saying, "I neither claim to know of a Ninjutsu history nor am I a source for Ninjutsu History. But, I am very interested in the Ninja and its evolution up to today." and you last post tried to tear me down as being ignorant of history. "listen to 'the dons'" indeed! Are you trying to say that you are an expert? Then list your sources for the Black Dragon TONG in Japan!

[sojobow]

In this case I am right because you were talking about how the bows used by the Mongols was the same as the ones used by the Sulsa, Ninja, etc.

So, we all knew that the Mongols used composite reflex bows. No one was disputing that if you bother to read the posts. It is the fact that their construction materials, construction methods, etc were different from Japan is what you are trying to avoid. The Mongols used horn in their bows for one thing (Command Magazine Nov-Dec 1991 page 4) and the bows used in Japan did not. Show me a source that says that Japanese bows use by ninja used horn or shared signifigent charecteristics with the Mongol bows other than being short.

And while you are finished with that, get some sources for the existence of the Black Dragon TONG :rolleyes: in Japan, a GOOD source that says ninja used ancient, straight swords (or existed as a group called "ninja" when the Chinese swords were current issue) and sources for everything else you have been spewing out.Try and squeeze out any way you want. What I said was that the Huns (while in Hungary (now called Hungary) and after their nomadic ventures to Europe, the Mongols, Korean, Chinese, Japan's Ninja, Tibetian, Sri Lankans all used the Reflex Bow. Now, reading your post, I don't believe you even know what a Reflex Bow is defined as. I'm sure that if I look further, I'll find that the Samurai used the reflex bow in their beginnings. But, since I wasn't interested, I did not look. You said I was incorrect. Look at the links I provided - or should I say "read" the links I provided. If you were in Japan after 500 b.c., and was involved in warfare (and some degree - eating) you used a reflex bow unless somehow, Japan hadn't floated into the region yet. Face the fact, you really don't know as much as you think even though you live in Japan.

I'll be glad to read your religous magazine. Just post the page/blurb. Thus far, I was unable to find it.

Show me proof that I am wrong about anything else not just your spewing out your usual editorials and commentary. Show proof that I am wrong or else, I'm correct.

[Don Roley]

Try and squeeze out any way you want. What I said was that the Huns (while in Hungary (now called Hungary) and after their nomadic ventures to Europe, the Mongols, Korean, Chinese, Japan's Ninja, Tibetian, Sri Lankans all used the Reflex Bow.

Snip

If you were in Japan after 500 b.c., and was involved in warfare (and some degree - eating) you used a reflex bow unless somehow, Japan hadn't floated into the region yet.

No you did not say that and no it is not true. Take a look at your post #74 of this thread. You did not try to make that point. List a link to the quote if it is true instead of hoping people will not remember well enough and let you slip by.

But in post #74 you did try to point out that the Huns (later changed to "the Khans" in a later, corrective post) tried to invade Japan twice. So after trying to suggest a link between the invasion of Japan by the Mongols and the bow types used now you are saying that the bow made the leap to Japan about 2000 years earlier?

And take a look at the picture of the ninja bow on page 149 of the source I listed ("Ninjutsu-History and Tradition" with Hatsumi's name on the cover). You call that a true reflex bow? :bs:

And take a look at this link,
http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-e5.html

and notice that the word "Reflex" is glaringly noticable in its absence. Take a look at the bows themselves! You don't even know that reflex bows were used by the Mongols but not in Japan? Go ahead, try to list a LEGITIMATE link that says that reflex bows were used in Japan. All the sources will give pictures pretty much like the one I posted a link to above that do not show the same bend that you find in Mongol bows.

Oh, and I will just point out how you have side stepped the whole Black Dragon TONG thing while trying to divert attention away from it. It seems to be your tactic to throw out some fantasy and when called on it, pile on more to confuse the issue and turn the conversation into a new, less embarrasing direction.

[sojobow]

No you did not say that and no it is not true. Take a look at your post #74 of this thread. You did not try to make that point. List a link to the quote if it is true instead of hoping people will not remember well enough and let you slip by.Start with post 92. More particular, Post 105. See, you don't even have to try to remember. Just a short list of links you say don't exist. But they do, in fact, exist. Snip: "Thanx. That was all I asked for and it makes no difference as to who presented the info. I will find Mr. Turnbull's work and read it. I also must Bow to Kreth. I was not asking him for any type of "proof" for what he said, I was asking so that I might find our more about these Bows. I actually see 5 Bows used in different regions and find this interesting (Huns, Khans, Ninja, Sulsa, Chinese). FY 100 b.c. to about 800 a.d.. But, some here propose that the Ninja didn't exist until 1500 a.d. and the Sulsa 100-600 a.d. so a Ninja Bow in 400 or 600 a.d. wouldn't make sense to them. As you know, I believe the Ninja existed well before these time periods thus, we have a conflict that can't be resolved between those two beliefs." (sojobow to Don Roley)Then, Post 109. Keep going? try post 111.
But in post #74 you did try to point out that the Huns (later changed to "the Khans" in a later, corrective post) tried to invade Japan twice. So after trying to suggest a link between the invasion of Japan by the Mongols and the bow types used now you are saying that the bow made the leap to Japan about 2000 years earlier?You're trying to suggest this, not I. I say too much as it is so adding additional words for me doesn't help.
And take a look at the picture of the ninja bow on page 149 of the source I listed ("Ninjutsu-History and Tradition" with Hatsumi's name on the cover). You call that a true reflex bow? What do you call it? As I stated eons ago, your Ryu and I have a different time period for most points. I speak of 800 years earlier, you speek of the 15th and 16th Centuries. So, in this instance, the discussion was on Reflex Bows circa 500 bc to 800 ad. You keep asking we discuss circa 1500-1600 Bows. We'll never agree. With all due respect to Hatsumi, there are other sources.
And take a look at this link,http://www.kyudo.com/kyudo-e5.html and notice that the word "Reflex" is glaringly noticable in its absence. Take a look at the bows themselves! You don't even know that reflex bows were used by the Mongols but not in Japan? Go ahead, try to list a LEGITIMATE link that says that reflex bows were used in Japan. All the sources will give pictures pretty much like the one I posted a link to above that do not show the same bend that you find in Mongol bows.A picture is worth a thousand words. Look at the pictures and links I posted. Then look at your link. Word may be "glaringly noticable in its absence" but the picture depicts a Reflex Bow compable to the bows in the Korean, Hun, Mongol link I gave you. I would also think that an particular Ryu teaching any particular weapon, would have a reference weapon in particular for that Ryu. I'm discussing universal applications, your narrowing it to a select few. .................................................. ...http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/image.php?u=1183&dateline=1037023789



Oh, and I will just point out how you have side stepped the whole Black Dragon TONG thing while trying to divert attention away from it. It seems to be your tactic to throw out some fantasy and when called on it, pile on more to confuse the issue and turn the conversation into a new, less embarrasing direction.No I didn't. I listed "additional" names of organizations with "Black Dragon" within. It'a a subject like that of the Triads. Interesting. The Black Dragon subject goes back well over 1,700 years. Many legends. No big deal. No issue to me. What else?

[sojobow]

[QUOTE=sojobow]There are literally thousands of pictures and text on this subject on the web.

Instead of taking Don's posts as personal attacks you should take them as something to think about. Since you think Don is always right I guess. They are personal attacks. What has transpired since your last post (the one I'm replying to here) should prove this point. Ain't nuttin knew.


I hope you can manage to post at least 1 or 2 of these "thousands" of links so you can put the matter to rest. -andrew
What makes you thing this. The "matter" is not the point to them. It is I. Did you really think my posting proof to them would mean anything?

[Don Roley]

Start with post 92.


This is what it says,


Yes, the Mongol Bow you are speaking of incorporated horn, additional inversions, etc. But somehow you missed the point that the ORIGINAL bows were the same. You're comparing a two different bows. By the time Attilla came of age, the Mongol composit bow had developed or evolved in construction. The Bow used by the Mongols before they left there original homeland was the same as that of the Ninja of Koga. The bow Attilla used was developed after his people reached Europe.

So where are the references to back this little bit of silliness up? Where are the references on what a Koga ryu bow looked like and a mention of how the early bows the Mongols used looked like? You posted a picture of a Mongol bow, and it was not like any bow used in Japan. If it was a later one, why do so if you point is that the ORIGINAL bows were the same? Why not find a picture of the original bow, etc?

You just finished trying to say that reflex bows were used in Japan. Now you are trying to confuse the subject and slip away. Go ahead, show me a reflex bow that was used in Japan. But of course, you can look at a picture of a bow that is clearly not a reflex bow and try to say it is just to try to cover your tail. I encourage everyone to look up the pictures I posted a link to for themselves. This is your tactic of getting shown up as not very familiar with the subject matter and laying on more BS to cover your tail.


I listed "additional" names of organizations with "Black Dragon" within. It'a a subject like that of the Triads. Interesting. The Black Dragon subject goes back well over 1,700 years. Many legends. No big deal. No issue to me. What else?

Oh really? Take a look at this post (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=263438#post263438) everybody! More stuff without references! The original post by Sojobow is a few up from the post linked to.

[sojobow]

This is what it says,
So where are the references to back this little bit of silliness up? Where are the references on what a Koga ryu bow looked like and a mention of how the early bows the Mongols used looked like? You posted a picture of a Mongol bow, and it was not like any bow used in Japan. If it was a later one, why do so if you point is that the ORIGINAL bows were the same? Why not find a picture of the original bow, etc?
I did already. Just click on the links. Not my problem if you can't see are read.


Oh really? Take a look at this post (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=263438#post263438) everybody! More stuff without references! The original post by Sojobow is a few up from the post linked to.
Still trying to recruit are we. Please, "everybody" agree with Don so we can move on. Knowbody cares about the Black Dragon subject. The gentlemen asking the original question even asked the we leave and subject and continue with the thread subject. What is your problem!!!?

what else?

[Enson]

can we get this thread locked now?

[Kizaru]

Still trying to recruit are we. Please, "everybody" agree with Don so we can move on.http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon4.gifI disagree with both of you because you are BOTH completely WRONG!http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon4.gif

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon3.gifIt's been a secret to most for centuries, but I'll expose it here on martialtalk.com, because it needs to be done.

Aliens from Xenon in heavy competion with the Elohim race (see this link here for proof of their existence http://www.rael.org/english/index.html ) brought the reflex bow to the Pygmy tribes of Africa. The Pygmies, setting sail in the dawn of the Christian era in ships resembling those used by Marco Polo http://www.silk-road.com/artl/marcopolo.shtml brought the SAME bow to the Ninja in Japan, the Khans, the Huns and finally, the Aztecs. See, the Khans welcomed Marco Polo when he finally did come becuase they recognized the shape of the ship that brought them their reflex bows. These simple facts have been overlooked for years due to the fact that the Pygmies were masacred by the Azetecs (they were tired from their trip around the world, and by ths time, their reflex bow bowstrings had gotten wet), and was later covered up by the thrid Spanish Inquisition ( http://www.geocities.co.jp/Hollywood-Studio/5058/h_sketch1.html this page is in JAPANESE so Don Roley can't doubt it's authenticity, but I invite all to see for yourselves! Yeah, I speak Japanese too Donny Shihan!) following the conquest of South America.

*NOW* we can lock this thread I think.