An appeal for other traditional ninja styles

[Don Roley]

Hello,
I am the author of the article on the Koga ryu

http://www.bujinkanwakodojo.com/bwd_kogaryu_history.html

which many people claiming to be members of the Koga ryu have denounced because they claim that I am "biased." Of course they themselves have a lot more reason for bias in trying to convince others that what they teach is not merely made up by them than I would have in denoucing them. And so far no one has even bothered to check my sources before denouncing them and have not provided sources for their counter claims.

I reject the notion that the article is biased towards destroying the Koga ryu. I think it is silly that anyone would try to claim that I am trying to discredit any other ninja tradition because I am a Bujinkan member. I would love to find another form of ninjutsu to examine it. I have spent a lot of money and time in researching ninjutsu and it's history, and finding a living source of techniques would be a great find. The problem is that every style I have met or examined turned out to trace back to someone outside of Japan who claimed he could not show any proof of the existence of his teacher because of secrecy. This secrecy does not prevent them from sometimes making a good living off of teaching students, or opening web sights, publishing books or aurguing for hours on the internet that they really are nifty keen ninja masters. No, it is only when asked for proof that they actually learned what they do from someone else instead of making it up themselves does the need for "secrecy" pop up.

If anyone can point me to a legitimate ninjutsu style outside of the Takamatsu den to have survived to the modern day, I would appreciate it. But I will not take a person's claim of being a student of a ninjutsu tradition without question. To be qualified as a legitimate ninjutsu tradtion by me I only require one thing.
Dianne Skoss wrote in an article "You want Koryu?", (http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html)
"admittedly, there are a very small number of schools that for political reasons fall through the cracks here, but essentially a tradition must be documentable in Japan"

This is all I require. It seems easy and logical enough. Give us proof that the art is or was taught in Japan and the person now teaching it can show a valid link to the person who is/was teaching the art in Japan. The idea of a Japanese- originated art being too secret to be known inside of Japan but taught openly outside of it, as well as being paraded out in front of the whole world via the internet, is too silly for someone who knows the reality of things to contemplate.
I do not require that you belong to any particular orginizations, nor appear in any particular book, or associate with any one person. All I require is that someone in Japan teaches or taught the art and that there is a link with that person by the person making the claim.

It is not neccesary, but it would really please me, if the person, tradition or orginization had been examined by an independent Japanese historian, martial artist scholar or other similar professional and that scholar had announced that the traditions filled all the known facts about ninjutsu and could be called a ninjutsu tradition. I can give you a few names of people I would reccomend, Nawa Yumio, Okuse Hichiro, Tobe Shinjuro, Koyama Ryutaro, Nakajima Atsumi and others who are known to have done considerable research into what the ninja were. And since it is rare when you can get academics to agree 100% on anything, I do not require that all of them agree and would be pleased if you can get even one person who is knowledgable about ninjutsu but has no link to the orginization (which might cloud their judgement) declare that it is a ninjutsu tradition.

Now, both the Togakure ryu and Fujita Seiko fill the second condition. None of the people posturing on the internet can even make the first catagory. I am hoping that someone can prove that they do indeed have a link to someone in Japan teaching the art of ninjutsu. So far, all the claimnants not only can not do so, but the ones I have come in contact with strike me as rather incompetent about the martial arts and ninjutsu in particular.

So if anyone wishes to convince me that they are indeed members of a legitimate ninjutsu syle, all I require is above. I would truely love to converse and meet with such people. However, I can point to at least three different people just off the top of my head who not only claim to teach the Koga ryu, but claim to be the 'only true' teachers of the art. Obviously, someone is not being truthfull and since none of them are acknowledged in Japan I am rather suspicious unless anyone can back up what they say.

So if you are a member of a legitimate ninjutsu style from Japan, please let me know and point me in the direction of confirming your claims for myself. I am really wanting to pick the minds of legitimate ninjutsu practicioners.

[Cryozombie]

You know don...

for what its worth, I read your article on the Koga Ryu... and despite your consistant fraud busting and whatnot, i Think it was a well wriiten article, and most likley accurate from the other sources I have seen...

I believe that most of the "Koga Ryu" schools are indeed made up... either in part as "semi" x-kan schools, mixed with other arts, or completely fraudulant.

Granted, who am I? No one... but...

[Genin Andrew]

Once again Don, Fair call.

I have commented a few times before about the quality of your essay on the Koga-Ryu,i don't see how people would find it biased when you clearly provide both sides of the story as well as historical evidence from all angles.

I also took the time to read http://koryu.com/library/dskoss1.html by Dianne Skoss.Good article and many good point where raised and explored.
Baically the legitimacy of Ninjukai lies in its "historical presence in Japan" i will do some research and find out more about the supposed "Kyoto Dojo" which once existed.I regretably say "don't count on it".

But hey out of interest sake and my interest in history i will scope around and see if i can dig up anything.If i fail i will gladly stand corrected and accept Ninjukai as a "modern" Ninja art witch has no ties to Japan...

much respect
-andrew

[Enson]

i too have read your article and i found it quite informative. isn't reading your article a requirement to be on this forum?;)

anyway... genin andrew i wouldn't stress to much about trying to meet up to don's requirements. its kinda like saying "talk to my neighbor" which he knows you won't call to japan "and then he'll let you know". just accept the fact that you are considered modern by don's standards and let it be.
what does modern mean anyway?

mod·ern http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron.jpg (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/M0362800.wav) Listen: (http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/pron/M0362800.wav) [ mhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/obreve.gifdhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/prime.gifhttp://www.yourdictionary.com/images/ahd/gif/schwa.gifrn ]
adj.


a. Of or relating to recent times or the present: modern history. b. Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date: a modern lifestyle; a modern way of thinking.
a. Of or relating to a recently developed or advanced style, technique, or technology: modern art; modern medicine. b. Avant-garde; experimental.
often Modern Linguistics Of, relating to, or being a living language or group of languages: Modern Italian; Modern Romance languages

if that is what modern means then i would say heck yeah i'm modern. an up-to-date, advanced style! its the "law of the lid". (john c. maxwell) "if your not learning (growing) your not leading". you can only take someone were you have been. so if you are accused of having a modern way of thinking... so be it!
is rtms modern? heck yeah it is! (although i was accused by a toshindo practicioner of being more traditional then they are) do we associate with the koga ryu...? well not really. we really don't associate with any old ryu. we are modern in all ways i guess! if people don't want to close their mind to everything else... let them. they are closing themselves off from establishing friendships and lasting associations with everyone else.

peace

[Kreth]

The interesting thing about these would-be Koga styles, is that they seem to borrow a lot of terminology from the Bujinkan. It's interesting to see them refer to instructors as shidoshi, which is a term coined by Hatsumi sensei (and no, it is not the same word used to refer to a coach).

Jeff

[Genin Andrew]

Thankyou Enson, that was a good post.

The thing is i know pretty well now that i probably won't find anything on Ninjukai in Japan because many have searched before and i'm sure Don that you have had a scope around at records etc. and you live in Japan! And i trust that if you did bother that you found nothing.

But i will have an attempt just for the sake of it because it will be interesting if i do find anything and obviously it will give Don the final proof he was after and i also will be satisfied. I think their are alot of great modern arts out there and i am not afraid of being modern,but i guess i personally would like to think that i do study a "traditional" ninja art.Simply because i am a history enthusiast and love all the history side of ninjutsu,and because what i have seen and been told i believe is traditional,but like Don i would love abit of hard evidence.

A part of me does believe there is evidence out there and i also believe there is living evidence within the dojo ie. Shihan John Ang but all there is,is old unrecorded photos and his word.However having witnessed the art i still have faith.

[Enson]

genin andrew, i understand what you are saying. keep looking... you never know.

kreth, i absolutley agree with you. if hatsumi "coined" that term then no one else should use it. in rtms we don't use very much japanese language for anything. we believe in speaking our own language i guess. like we call kicks.... well, "kicks". from what i understood its really difficult to translate the language into english spelling anyway. i could be wrong but i think i read that somewhere, or a client told me that. we don't claim to have japanese links. in fact i can garauntee you we don't have a dojo in japan. i guess it would be hard for them to speak the english language... (thats where don comes in ;))
the only word we really use alot is "sensei" and sometimes we call our instructor by his first name.
peace

[Don Roley]

genin andrew i wouldn't stress to much about trying to meet up to don's requirements. its kinda like saying "talk to my neighbor" which he knows you won't call to japan "and then he'll let you know".

Unfortunatly I have recieved this type of attitude from the followers of Ashida Kim, Frank Dux, etc. I ask for proof that an art has links to Japan and they try to paint me as someone who really does not want the truth. Thus they have an excuse not to give any sort of proof.

It is a thin excuse, but they seem to use it well.

I really, really do wish to find some other form of ninjutsu that is either in Japan or started there. I may not, probably will not, study it formally. But it is nice to have something to compare and contrast. I find such interactions to be very informative as they make me take a look at my own art deeper to understand why one art does things one way and we another. I have gone to demonstrations of swordsmanship here in Japan, attended seminars on non-Japanese martial arts, etc. But I have never been able to find a legitimate ninjutsu art to compare and contrast with. The styles I have seen that claim to be ninjutsu look more like bad karate mixed with what they can steal from books by SKH and Hatsumi.

So if someone knows of a legitimate style of ninjutsu that can be traced back to Japan, please let me know.

[Genin Andrew]

I agree Don and i also would like to read about another style apart from the Togakure-Ryu tradition.I would love to hear a different story,see different techniques and such.I think its one of those things that a historian always dreams of...

I'm sure there was other styles,i mean there must be,how could just 1 make it to the modern age? So where are they? Maybe theres a mysterious little old Japanese man somewhere in Japan that has all the answers but just doesn't see it as appropriate to carry on the tradition...

[Don Roley]

Donny shihan are you really saying this.. you're the master of this yourself..

Well, I certainly have disrupted the con games of several frauds on the internet. The list of people who hate my guts and try to tear me down reads like a "who's who" of the worst in Bad Budo. I treat people like honarable people if they are honorable. But if they lie, I tend to expose them if I can.

But I really do want to find another ninjutsu style that can be found in Japan and is not a fantasy created to attract students. I think that is one reason I expose so many dishonorable people- they take away from my quest to find such groups.

Things would be so much easier if people acted honorably and did not lie about their training, their combat history, etc. I demand proof, and that really pokes holes in many liar's stories. I do demand proof that a group claiming to come from Japan can point to a Japanese source and link. If they can prove a link to Japan and are known in Japan, then I would accept them. But so far, no one seems able to do so.

[Don Roley]

I really never ask for proof.
With my experience I just watch.

Quite honestly, that means that you are among the most easily fooled.

Seriously. They did a study a long time ago and found that the people who beleive they were too smart/skilled to be conned were the easiest to fool.

I started out in an art that was not so great for street combat. I beleive that now, but at the time I was convinced it was the best thing since sliced bread. I beleive that the art I train in now is great, but I always remember that I used to feel the same way, only even stronger, about the other art when I was training in it.

And I ahve seen time after time people training under frauds who say, "this art is just too good to have been created out of thin air." When I see what they do, I have to stop myself from laughing out loud. The guys who follow Ashida Kim are jsut as convinced that what they do is combat effective as I. The differences are that my teachers can prove their claims of training under other people and I keep an open mind that maybe there might be flaws in what I am learning.

So that is why I demand proof for claims. Especially personal claims. A person who claims to have been taught by a Japanese teacher but can't prove it, or who claims 350+ street fights and has no legal paperwork is just not trustworthy. And only a fool would think they know so much about combat that they would know the proper response to every situation and can tell if the guy's story meets with reality.

This is why I place so much importance on arts that claim to be from Japan can show a link. It is not difficult to prove that sort of thing. It is very clear with no problems or interpetations. You either can prove it or you can not. If you make a claim that you can't prove, why the heck should I trust your further claims of being proved in combat?

[Bob Hubbard]

Note: Thread has been 'weeded'. Please stay on topic.

[Don Roley]

Thank You!

[r.severe]

Quite honestly, that means that you are among the most easily fooled.

Donny shihan..
Because you are assuming someone is being 'fooled'...
Please give examples of yor experience with this..."being fooled" other than web sites and books..
Do you have any?

AND.... How can this be considered "honest" or not..?

ralph severe, kamiyama

[Jeff Boler]

Who and what determines legitimacy? Historical lineage, or combat effectiveness? And wouldn't that be based upon opinion anyway?

You know what, all Ninjutsu styles are "modern." Even the Bujinkan has had difficulty proving it's historical legitimacy. To my knowledge, the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu is the only (?) Koryu system to have "Ninjutsu" in it's curriculum.

Point being, so what? Who cares if you are "modern" or "traditional". Legitimacy is a matter of opinion only. Personally, I prefer knowing that my art works when it counts, instead of whether or not it was developed hundreds of years ago. You may think differently.

Regardless, it's an arguement that is never going to be won either way.

[Cryozombie]

Ahem. Nevermind.

[Jeff Boler]

I'm not trying to upset Bujinkan members. I'm just so sick of the "Legitimacy" arguement. It's pointless, and serves no real purpose. Take some of that energy that you use trying to make yourself legitimate, and worry about making yourself effective.

It's makes a world of difference.

[Don Roley]

Who and what determines legitimacy?

In this case, can an art that claims to be from Japan prove that it does. That is not something that should be difficult to prove. If people are not able/willing to prove even that, then the natural assumption is that they are lying and no further thought given to them.

Once you get to Japan, the debate takes on a whole deeper aspect. But if you can't even prove that, then there is little use debating it.

And claims of combat effectiveness has to be one of the biggest cop outs. Anyone care to show me an art that does not beleive it is combat effective? Even the ones that make me laugh have hoardes of followers that think that what they are doing is effective.

It is like the Juko-kai thing. Once you find out that someone is lying, you don't trust them- especially in terms of combat effectiveness. People rarely stop with just one lie. So if we can't trust their claims of even just being of Japanese origin, why should we trust them when they say they are teaching a street effective system?

[Shogun]

I believe the only systems that can truly claim any type of combat effectiveness, are the systems that have experienced combat, and were created and perfected during it.
The Bujinkan arts (especially the 3 Ninjutsu schools) have obviously been through warring times, and the arts were created with "combat effectiveness" in mind.
MA's that have been used by militia/Police, etc as a primary form of unarmed combat are the only systems that can legimately claim to be effective as a whole. For instance, if someone learns BJJ and they are a cop, and they use it effectively, it doesnt mean it is an effective system, because the whole pricinct isnt using it. just the one guy. I am not sure how to word it, but basically, unless the art is combat, the practicioners cannot claim it effective during such.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

In this case, can an art that claims to be from Japan prove that it does. That is not something that should be difficult to prove. If people are not able/willing to prove even that, then the natural assumption is that they are lying and no further thought given to them.

Once you get to Japan, the debate takes on a whole deeper aspect. But if you can't even prove that, then there is little use debating it.

And claims of combat effectiveness has to be one of the biggest cop outs. Anyone care to show me an art that does not beleive it is combat effective? Even the ones that make me laugh have hoardes of followers that think that what they are doing is effective.

It is like the Juko-kai thing. Once you find out that someone is lying, you don't trust them- especially in terms of combat effectiveness. People rarely stop with just one lie. So if we can't trust their claims of even just being of Japanese origin, why should we trust them when they say they are teaching a street effective system?The obvious reverse of that is, if ones art is NOT street effective, who cares about it's lineage? I have admired the tenacity with which you guard the sacred throne. Not one of the heresies ideally suppressed by the great apologeticists of the first few centuries of the catholic church declined because of the apologies themselves. Contrarily, many present-day practicing priests and nuns actively believe in spiritual positions considered heretical by the church.

Fools wallow in shyte. It's what they do. And pointing out to them that it IS shyte, and not the crystal spring they think it is, will rarely lower their defenses and change their minds. They will defend their dung heap as sacred ground.

There is Japanese information outside japan, some with traceable histories, some not (e.g., Japanese swordsmanship practiced among FMA guys in the Phillipines...moves are clearly Japanese, but with the racial sentiments on either side, no one cares to record or declare lineage). Unfortunately, this rare fact is used by many to abuse semi-truths, and make claims with no truth. Specifically, too many crappy karate guys out there who were good at hide-and-go-seek as kids, read Hayes' books, and used BJK names for sneaky ninja walks...granted themselves rank in Ninjutsu (usually obscure, poorly named schools that don't translate in Japanese).

Now for the big one...so what? I've met too many Kans and ex-Kans who are truly horrible martial artists to care if Hatsumi's signature is on their diploma or not. Doesn't matter to me because they are miserable to watch.

With obvious quality control issues emerging in the recent history of the art, I can't help but wonder if the strength of your mind might not be better placed towards assisting with possible solutions, as opposed to ensuring all named arts of fools aren't in the little book of names created by the census. As an aside, I suspect (my own mental meanderings, with no experience or data to support it) that -- in line with the privacy one would expect a injutsu practitioner to live with -- the census would have gone right by the houses of people professing to know nothing. Unfortunately, that possibility is the very stuff that guys like Dux & Kim thrive on, notwithstanding the likelihood that, if I'm correct, such systems would remain in, and die with, these families...certainly not be taught to a big-nosed monkey.

Guarding the throne gets tedious. I tune in to ninjutsu threads hoping to learn about some great practice exercises, some cool techniques, discussion about differences between existing organizations (sub-booj, ex-booj) and their strengths and weaknesses. Instead, it's this non-stop contest about legitimacy.

Just curious...how many loyalists from the other camps have actually ceased their activities with nefarious fellows, and switched to BJK training? How many wide-eyed 15-year-old yahoo's didn't buy a book by Kim on the Death Touch, just because you identified the guy as a clown?

Let them swim in muck. QC in the art you train in has slipped, and is slipping still. There you are, a practitioner in Japan, speaking both languages, ostensibly with the ear of the king or his viziers at your disposal. Do something to fix what matters...the quality of a noble art, rapidly descending into the land of McDojo fantasy, even among its papered practitioners and dues paying members. I mainly practice an art that's a bastard child of a bastard child, so lineage is irrelevant. But we can fight (some of us...others are also truly laughable), because we have had to. Our lineage...our right to stand up at a gathering of arts... is declared by the unconscious bodies of our opponents in the parking lot outside the convention. Meanwhile, there are earnest BJK guys still out there, still fighting, because the skills they developed weren't up to snuff.

You're a brilliant man, Don. Help where it can matter most.

My own opinion.

Hate away,

Dave

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I believe the only systems that can truly claim any type of combat effectiveness, are the systems that have experienced combat, and were created and perfected during it.
The Bujinkan arts (especially the 3 Ninjutsu schools) have obviously been through warring times, and the arts were created with "combat effectiveness" in mind.
MA's that have been used by militia/Police, etc as a primary form of unarmed combat are the only systems that can legimately claim to be effective as a whole. For instance, if someone learns BJJ and they are a cop, and they use it effectively, it doesnt mean it is an effective system, because the whole pricinct isnt using it. just the one guy. I am not sure how to word it, but basically, unless the art is combat, the practicioners cannot claim it effective during such.
Soooo....when is the last time you had to actually use 1 of the 3 schools, or throw jacks at someones feet? Know a whole metropolitan police force that does? Use your To a lot? Lotsa street brawls with manriki-gusari in your town?

Medeival combat and battle management tactics do not necessarily speak to modern effectiveness.

[Shogun]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation (www.steelefoundation.com)senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation (http://www.steelefoundation.com/)senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.1. I was being a smartass.

2. Speaking of ignorant statements...You don't? BJJ basics have been added to the combat training of PD's throughout the US. The early days of BJJ -- before the steroid freaks training for MMA competitions -- most schools had approx 25-50% enrollment with LEO's of one sort or another...sherrifs dept, Marshalls, regular PD from all over So Cal, etc. Look harder.

D.

[Cryozombie]

Quality control issues are not just problems in the Bujinkan. Hell... I would say that I AM one... my Ukemi is attrocious, and I still dont feel like I can do Kihon Happo well.

But I have an excuse... I am "early" in my ranking, only a 7th Kyu.

However, Find me an art that doesnt have any number of bad students, or for that matter, instructors. Ive been into schools where I feel *I* could wipe the floor with any number of their blackbelts, and that is pretty sad, given my above statement.

Its arguable one of the most "used" slams against the Bujinkan is, "There are a Lot of bad students"...

Well, all I can say, is we dont have a franchise on it, we just joined the club.

:asian:

[Flatlander]

That is one of those Ignorant Taijutsu comments. I will let Mr. Roley or Mr. Seago (Steele foundation (http://www.steelefoundation.com/)senior manager) answer your questions about Bujinkan training.
I have experienced what types of arts cops train in firsthand. I dont see many training in competitive arts (Muay Thai, BJJ, TKD, MMA styles)I see them train mostly in Japanese Jujutsu styles, which were developed to restrain a suspect, while minimizing the damage they take.
Well, I don't know how the LEO's in your neck of the woods do things, but in all honesty, departmentally mandated training, regardless of the base art, is laughable and horrifically substandard. You could feasibly train in just about any art for a few months and beat a recently graduated LEO in H2H (provided they had no previous martial training). They train for a few weeks, learn a few basic locks, strikes and takedowns, and then are free to never train again, should they choose not to.

Your use of LEO training as evidence of combat effectiveness doesn't hold water.

[Shogun]

Not basic DT training. I was refering to what individual/group LEO do for additional training. The DT is very basic stuff. It really wouldnt be very effective without the OC spray and ASPs. A few (ok, a lot) of Police in my area are MA instructors, and offer free instruction to other LEO. But the DT is enough for most LEO. They get by with basics.


BJJ basics have been added to the combat training of PD's throughout the US.
The basics of BJJ can be found in most grappling styles.

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

However, Find me an art that doesnt have any number of bad students, or for that matter, instructors. Ive been into schools where I feel *I* could wipe the floor with any number of their blackbelts, and that is pretty sad, given my above statement.
...
Well, all I can say, is we dont have a franchise on it, we just joined the club.

:asian:
As a kenpo practitioner & teacher, I have mourned deeply the loss of quality in my art, evident even before it's principle founders and key figures started slipping off the plate. It has only worsened with time, and the passing of so many excellent thinking brawlers. I've seen the proliferation of folks with pedigreed claims to notable instructors who were absolutely lost in their own skins...they would fit in to the group of instructors you COULD mop the floor with, handily. On the flip side, I've seen kenpo indies who were phenomenal (sp?).

Seeing the same with BJK Budo Taijutsu breaks my heart, because it started out as such a noble, well-heeled esoteric and pragmatic system, but is rapidly going the way of arts such as my own. The apparent absolute obsession with legitimacy is a no-yield/low-yield QC effort, and I hate to see the most excellent seniors in the system trapped in the neverending loop that is this effort. A better approach, in my own opinion, is to stand out as a beacon of excellence for quality instruction. The serious lifers in Kenpo know who to seek out, and who to avoid. It will, inevitably, be up to practitioners of BJKBT to develop the same sense of consumer savvy, and learn to seek quality. Mr. Roley seems well-positioned to me to direct the attention of the serious acolyte to the better senior instructors.

Kinduva, "Who ya gonna call?", and the chorus sings, "Don Roley".

His insight, tenacity, and borderline arrogance for detail make him a great reference point for any who wish to ask.

It is also sad to me that some of the really cool ideas aren't discussed, for fear the frauds will coin the phrases, use the terminology, use the techniques, etc.

I post not out of criticism, but concern. When TKGR first hit US shores, you could count on a positive experience with a certified representative. I just hate to see something like that go. Again.

Dave

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

The basics of BJJ can be found in most grappling styles.
Me thinks you make my point for me. This was not always so. There was a time in which, unless you had access to an old-school judo teacher or text, the "astride" position, attacks from it and defenses against them, were all but unknown. Even then, the Japanese did not take it to the extreme the Gracies did. Much of what is used now is sometimes referred to in various circles as "Brazilian Mount Fighting", since the poundings delivered from these superior positions are largely tactics developed in Brazil for vale tudo matches. Due to their effectiveness, even traditional TKD schools are now teaching Gracie basics.

As part owner and trainer of an MMA gym (before MMA was even a coined phrase...used to refer to stuff like Kajukenbo), much of my clientele were from law enforcement, ranging from Metro SWAT teams to local meter maids. Kickboxing for stand-up & clinch-fighting; Gracie for the ground. Many came in with some excellent stories of thai-kicking the leg out from under a perp, mounting him, turning him, then choking him out. When hadaka-jime became taboo post LAPD positional asphyxiations and blood clots, alternative loop chokes were applied, with excellent results. It's easy to cuff a guy who's sleeping.

I don't know much, but I know what I know. And to tell me cops don't BJJ because it's not a combat art when I've taught cops who've used it in combat, and have done so myself quite succesfully on more than a few occasions...

[Jeff Boler]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period. However, if someone comes up to me and says that they created their style on their own, I'm willing to at least, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Lineage isn't important, unless you make it important. Guys floating around the net claiming to be Koga Ryu styles, have better be able to back up their claims to gain any sort of respectability whatsoever.

However, a person who has prior military training, or martial arts training that creates his own style.....I have no problem with. As long as he is up front about it.

[Enson]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period. However, if someone comes up to me and says that they created their style on their own, I'm willing to at least, give them the benefit of the doubt.

Lineage isn't important, unless you make it important. Guys floating around the net claiming to be Koga Ryu styles, have better be able to back up their claims to gain any sort of respectability whatsoever.

However, a person who has prior military training, or martial arts training that creates his own style.....I have no problem with. As long as he is up front about it.i can agree with that. the fact of the matter is... no one has been able to show that they were/are studying under a koga ninja. is it possible that not all of the 53 families died out? and maybe some of them came to the usa?... well yeah. is it possible ninjutsu was taught just like it was taught in the koga mountains? (in secret) its possible. so i will say it again. lets judge a man by his skill/ability and when that has been established lets talk about roots.

[Cryozombie]

These discussions are getting old.

This is the last I am going to say on it, I am going to break the way I see it down plain and simple so everyone knows what I am thinking and then I am DONE.

A person can be a super skilled master of <Inset Art Here> and call their Art Ninjutsu, but that does not make it Ninjutsu. They may be an awesome fighter, a great artist, and a master at what they do. Which is not Ninjutsu.

Or... to feed you a better example... I could put a BMW medaillion on my Chevy... a well made, sold built, reliable car... but it's still not a BMW.

I wouldn't NOT go see them, possibly train with them, or whatnot. I would just understand that they were only capitalizing on the name and nothing more. I think THAT is what most X-Kan practitioners like Don are bagging on, nothing more. He stated once before, that the problem was, we would try and discuss something related to "Our" ninjutsu, like History, technique etc... and someone from, say, Dux-Ryu would jump in with a fictional history story, or some Kata from tae-kwondo or what have you, and the discussion would break down.

THAT is why *I* went to the mods and appealed to have the forum split into "Traditional" and "Modern". You can all blame ME for that. I was TRYING to bring the forum back on track and go back to discussing Budo, not having a P*ssing match over the arts.

I failed.

[Enson]

i don't think you failed. in fact i find the boards alot more fun to be on. more action! ;)

i posted this for my views:

i would prefer to think of ninjutsu as a concept. a concept where anyone loyal and dedicated can follow. i.e. jkd concept. (this will probably get twisted and taken out of context ((it will be fun to see how)) i respect the epak guys. most don't claim to be taken in as a baby and taught epak from a japanese grandmaster. they honor and respect an american man for taking a japanese concept and making better for him and generations to come. i respect all other styles. i don't respect false claims. if your instructor was "joe blow" then honor him and what he taught you. if it works for you... use it!this is how i see it. about speaking of technique...? i would enjoy someone else's theory on a certain technique (not false info) to maybe give me some more insight. i don't think anyone here is a grandmaster trying to start a new style so why can't we share info? i understand that what i do is not really x-kan/ ninjukai/ <put in your style here>. so when i hear of other techniques i don't try to impliment them just learn from them.
peace

[Jeff Boler]

These discussions are getting old.

This is the last I am going to say on it, I am going to break the way I see it down plain and simple so everyone knows what I am thinking and then I am DONE.

A person can be a super skilled master of <Inset Art Here> and call their Art Ninjutsu, but that does not make it Ninjutsu. They may be an awesome fighter, a great artist, and a master at what they do. Which is not Ninjutsu.

Or... to feed you a better example... I could put a BMW medaillion on my Chevy... a well made, sold built, reliable car... but it's still not a BMW.

I wouldn't NOT go see them, possibly train with them, or whatnot. I would just understand that they were only capitalizing on the name and nothing more. I think THAT is what most X-Kan practitioners like Don are bagging on, nothing more. He stated once before, that the problem was, we would try and discuss something related to "Our" ninjutsu, like History, technique etc... and someone from, say, Dux-Ryu would jump in with a fictional history story, or some Kata from tae-kwondo or what have you, and the discussion would break down.

THAT is why *I* went to the mods and appealed to have the forum split into "Traditional" and "Modern". You can all blame ME for that. I was TRYING to bring the forum back on track and go back to discussing Budo, not having a P*ssing match over the arts.

I failed.

No, you didn't fail. I think you have a valid arguement. The question is who is "traditional" and who isn't. EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu. Whose to say that he's teaching a traditional Ninjutsu system?

Which again, is why I said that using lineage as the primary factor in determining "legitimacy" is flawed at best.

[Dale Seago]

EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu.

That is not, as stated, correct.

[Kreth]

EVEN HATSUMI was unable to convince the Japanese that his system was Koryu.
You misspelled "The Skosses"... :)

Jeff

[r erman]

Just thought I'd save everybody from the next 15 pages of discussion, so here it is:

"Hatsumi's bujinkan org was denied entry to blah blah koryu org and such and such koryu society"

"No he wasn't, he refused to let said groups study/borrow original scrolls from certain ryuha--something they've never required of other schools. Plus he does belong to a couple of other koryu circles"

"On koryubooks.com they said hatsumi's togakure ryu is fake"

"No they said they don't cover ninjutsu as it doesn't fit into their definition of koryu. They said it may be historically valid--they actually praised hatsumi's hanbo(tanjo) jutsu"

"Well Hatsumi's system has no proof that it existed prior to his teacher"

"Yes it does. There are several samurai systems contained within the kans that are completely legitimate(Takagi Yoshin, Kukishinden, Gyokko...etc). Many of the booj ryu are listed in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten"

"But the ninjutsu ryu aren't in the BRD, right?"

"Depends on how you define ninjutsu. Gyokko ryu is listed as a school containing ninpo{which completely throws out the statment that TSKSR is the only one...}. Kukishin Ryu has elements of ninjutsu as well, why would Takamatsu need to make up ninjutsu schools if he was headmaster of legitimate ryuha containing ninjutsu?"


Anyway, I think I covered most of the bases. Most of the above are snippets of discussion that have been beaten to death more times than most of us can count. Let's move on;)

[Dale Seago]

Darned good job, Rob!!! :asian:

[r erman]

Darned good job, Rob!!!

Thanks :)

[Don Roley]

I think a couple of you have misinterpreted my comments. Anyone who lies about lineage or anything else, is not worth messing around with, period.

Then we are on the same page so far.

What I see here is a false choice. It seems to be a given that you can either care about whether an art is legitimate in it's claims or you can be working on effective techniques. The thing is, there is nothing stopping us from doing both at the same time.

I just got back to Japan from a week with another non-Japanese art. It was a great week with great martial artists. I stayed witht eh orginizer, a friend of mine, and got to sit in on a lot of conversations and lessons between some very skilled Indonesian stylists. There was a great amount of information exchanged. I had trouble understanding the history and the terminology they were using most of the time, but enjoyed the physical lessons.

These guys were quite effective and quite interested in exchanging ideas with other styles from Indonesia. At the same time, they really made fun of a lot of people who made false claims or were otherwise incompetent.

They were quite willing to exchange information, but they were not willing to deal with any frauds because the frauds knew nothing. They grew by comparing and contrasting what they knew. I too would like to have the same type of experience in the art of ninjutsu. I would love to find another ninjutsu style and exchange viewpoints, etc on what we do. But I am not really interested in listening to some guy with a total of 6 months of TKD go on about "oni ki" like I have seen happen.

So if there is any other style that can trace itself back to Japan, I would like to talk to them. But if they are decietful about what they claim, I am not willing to even give them the time of day.

[AaronLucia]

Less Talkey, more trainey!

[sojobow]

THAT is why *I* went to the mods and appealed to have the forum split into "Traditional" and "Modern". You can all blame ME for that. I was TRYING to bring the forum back on track and go back to discussing Budo, not having a P*ssing match over the arts....I failed.
Yep, your nose got longer too (*I*?). See what happens to your nose when you don't tell the truth. But, its good either way, regardless of who is responsible for the change. Now all we have to do is figure out how the reverse happened. Everyone is over in "those not accepted in Traditional" having fun educating some guy named sojobow - poor fellow. What happened? Maybe we need a third catagory - Those only Interested in the Spirit, Mind and Body. So far, there have been at least 4 Ryu in Japan named to go investigate. Any success?

[Don Roley]

Now all we have to do is figure out how the reverse happened. Everyone is over in "those not accepted in Traditional" having fun educating some guy named sojobow - poor fellow.

Maybe if you stopped trying to rewrite history and give some sources people would treat you with more respect. But as long as you continue to act like an expert and insult others (i.e. you comment about Technopunk supposably lying, etc) you will be continued to be the subject of a lot of laughter. The way you are treated is your fault and your fault only.

As for the idea of running down some schools in Japan, as soon as I get some leads I will search them out. But someone saying that their teacher trained with someone in Japan is not enough to go on in itself and people like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim just do not seem willing to give any proof to their claims.

[sojobow]

Maybe if you stopped trying to rewrite history and give some sources people would treat you with more respect. But as long as you continue to act like an expert and insult others (i.e. you comment about Technopunk supposably lying, etc) you will be continued to be the subject of a lot of laughter. The way you are treated is your fault and your fault only.
a) History should be written before one can be accused of re-writing that history. I have been shown no other history thus far. As you well know, anyone postulating a historical theory will be subject to much abuse by those without enough courage to state their own. This is the reason why your History of Koga is under so much scrutiny and is subject to so much discord. I bow to you for your efforts and share your empathy. I don't agree with it's evident bias but few have even given it a try as it takes courage;

b) Regarding my "sources," I honestly haven't been asked for my sources by anyone asking in a serious and honest manner. So far, those asking have been asking in hope of covering the fact that they don't know very much and were exposed. Most of what I propose are only my own thoughts and are in the form of questions. What motive would one have in asking me for sources for a question asked? What motive would one have for asking me for a source when it is evident that the subject artifact must lie in a museum? What is the motive in asking me for a source when the answer is "common sense" if not because the hope is to discredit the source since the maker could not be discredited?



As for the idea of running down some schools in Japan, as soon as I get some leads I will search them out. But someone saying that their teacher trained with someone in Japan is not enough to go on in itself and people like Frank Dux and Ashida Kim just do not seem willing to give any proof to their claims.
Excuse my English:

a) The absense of willingness to give you any proof does not translate into a hypothesis that the proof does not exist. It only can be inferred that those asking may have transgressed on the fringes of warriorship of the person being asked. If one comes with a bowed head and a pure spirit, they would be given the universe. Try using honey to catch the Bear as the Bear's first inclination is to kill. Personally, it may be too late as your spirit of contempt has transversed continents but you never know what will heaped upon you when you come with a bowed head;

b) I agree that you may initially feel that you don't have enough to go on. However, just go with what you have and see where it leads. I came here with just a theory on a single page. I now have hundreds of pages given to me inadvertently because "people laughed." They laughed, I looked deeper and found avenues I had no idea existed. Just take the four Ryu suggested and see where they lead. Never know, the people training in parks have a wealth of knowledge;

c) I may have been somewhat unfair to technopunk and for that, I bow. But the young man seems to want so badly to be accepted by you and a few others that he sometimes ventures into areas of discussion in which he has little knowledge. As he matures, he may change. Just call it youthfull exuberance. He seems to want to be the next Don Roley. Only a Master can critique another Master. Us grunts should be seen and not heard.

d) Start also by discontinuing the display of names in such a constant, antagonistic manner. I'd venture to say that the overwhelming number of your post contain the same names regardless of the subject.

good luck in your search.

[Don Roley]

Regarding my "sources," I honestly haven't been asked for my sources by anyone asking in a serious and honest manner.

Translation, if you do not like the tone of the person asking you to back up your claims you will not answer. If they dare ask you for proof, then you think that they are not asking "In a serious and honest manner" and will ignore their requests because their tone is not to your liking.

[Cryozombie]

Yep, your nose got longer too (*I*?). See what happens to your nose when you don't tell the truth. But, its good either way, regardless of who is responsible for the change. Now all we have to do is figure out how the reverse happened.

Thanks dude. You just proved your only intent on this Board is to be a Troll.

Anyone who Doubts I was the one who asked for this change can contact Sieg or Bob...

And Sojobow, YOU are the last person to talk about being a "Liar"... lets just look back at your post where you said you were closing your account. Guess it didnt happen, Ergo, you are at best dishonest person, but i vote for 11 year old playing troll on Mommy's PC...

Oh Yeah. DUX.

[sojobow]

Thanks dude. You just proved your only intent on this Board is to be a Troll. ......Anyone who Doubts I was the one who asked for this change can contact Sieg or Bob...
Well, the owner did "In Reply to sojobow" say that he had been thinking of making the change for quite a while. Then, he did it. If you want credit, be my guest. I'm just glad it was done.


And Sojobow, YOU are the last person to talk about being a "Liar"... lets just look back at your post where you said you were closing your account. Guess it didnt happen, Ergo, you are at best dishonest person, but i vote for 11 year old playing troll on Mommy's PC...Oh Yeah. DUX.
I'll take you up on that one. As you say "lets just look back at your [sojobow's] post where you said you were closing your account." Lets do it, show us any post that says within: "I, sojobow am closing my account." Don't waste your time. Lets stick to learning a martial art.

Thanks for the points. Need to see if I've broken -50 yet.

[tshadowchaser]

Ok folks lets let the past stay buried for a while.

Want to break -50 one way or another post positively. The other way is to be foolish and risk getting suspended or worse. Why make enemies



Why not do the first and see if you can make it to +50

[ninhito]

Why are Sojobow and Technopunk fighting.

[Cryozombie]

Why are Sojobow and Technopunk fighting.
We arent. You opened up an old thread that we let die, as per Tshadowchaser's request.

Please let it be.

Thanks.

[Kizaru]

Why are Sojobow and Technopunk fighting.
:feedtroll:feedtroll :feedtroll :feedtroll :feedtroll


Is forming a picket line allowed on Martialtalk?

[Bob Hubbard]

Thread Locked.