Hey everyone...
Just saw this subset to the Ninjutsu section and was wondering if ya'll could compile a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?
Thanks

Your Brother
John

For instance
I know that ToShinDo is in the catagory, right?

well lets see you have:
toshindo- founder sk hayes, student on forum gmunoz
rtms a.k.a tew ryu ninjutsu -founder rick tew, student on forum enson
ninjukai taijutsu- founder john ang, student on forum genin andrew
dux ryu- founder "the infamous" frank dux, student on forum sojobow
(i don't think sojobow is still a member but anyway...)
robert bussey's schools
thats all i can think of right now

Thats a pretty good list Enson and i personally cant think of any others. And just for the record, no one better mention ashida kim as being a member of that list,or the black dragon societies...i hope we can agree on that.

well lets see you have:
toshindo- founder sk hayes, student on forum gmunoz
rtms a.k.a tew ryu ninjutsu -founder rick tew, student on forum enson
ninjukai taijutsu- founder john ang, student on forum genin andrew
dux ryu- founder "the infamous" frank dux, student on forum sojobow
(i don't think sojobow is still a member but anyway...)
robert bussey's schools
thats all i can think of right now

The Tenju is alive and well. I have no objection to adding The Black Dragon Society. Objections are above my pay-grade. Guess it depends on how one defines Ninjitsu.

what about Fuma Ryu?


And no Black Dragon is not a ninjitsu dojo organisation, it is labelled as a society and not a martial art.

what about Fuma Ryu?
And no Black Dragon is not a ninjitsu dojo organisation, it is labelled as a society and not a martial art.

Brother John asked for a listing of "schools/groups." Black Dragons, being over 400 years old, does qualify somewhere within those two words.

The list is pretty good so far.
Now: Can anyone/everyone comment on what makes each school/group unique/distinct on a organizational AND (more dear to my heart) technical level?
This would be Very interesting.

thanks
Your Brother
John

Brother John asked for a listing of "schools/groups." Black Dragons, being over 400 years old, does qualify somewhere within those two words.
Well yes the Black Dragons have been around for 400 years, it is a shame that it is part of the Yakuza which in turn is linked by name to an organization that does crime.

The society is a collective, not a school nor is it a group. The society has many dojo's under its wings and is therefore not a school or a group. A school is a place of learning and a group is a collection of people with an interest in one particular subject. A society is a collection of sub groups like a school.

Well yes the Black Dragons have been around for 400 years, it is a shame that it is part of the Yakuza which in turn is linked by name to an organization that does crime.

The society is a collective, not a school nor is it a group. The society has many dojo's under its wings and is therefore not a school or a group. A school is a place of learning and a group is a collection of people with an interest in one particular subject. A society is a collection of sub groups like a school.i have to agree with you on the defenition of society. the black dragon society should not be considered as an art. although the moderators did make this for everyone else. maybe they should make another sub-forum for those that wear sweat pants, ski mask, and run around at night (ashida kim).
just because one writes a ridiculous book on ninjutsu does not make him a practicioner. if thats the case the realulitmatepower.con would have to be considered an art.

the thing that makes each organization different would be the an-shu or founder. his theory and philosophies. so i guess what i'm saying is each student would have to represent his school/art/style/dojo for this question to be answered correctly.

The Black Dragon Society is a franchise of dojo's (if you wanna call them that) that breeds thugs and puts the words martial and art on a slant of shame.

The 400 year tradition did have some good morals and ways but nowadays it is a tradition of thuggery (their affiliation with the yakuza doesn't help them) and has a bad habit of raising bad authors who write crappy books about NINJITSU...this is a very negative post and i apologize for this but Sojobow i think its best you retract you're statements regarding the Black Dragon Society, Enson and Elizium both brought up good points which you should read over thoroughly.

much respect
-andrew

i posted a website under general ninjutsu. these guys are from the "black dragon society" the pics are nasty but funny. i think the ones under the seminar. like one where this guy is doing god knows what to this other guy's rear. and this girl smelling this other guys rear. i guess you could call it the "posterior technique" hee hee!

The list is pretty good so far.
Now: Can anyone/everyone comment on what makes each school/group unique/distinct on a organizational AND (more dear to my heart) technical level?
This would be Very interesting.

thanks
Your Brother
John






?




Please

?the thing that makes each organization different would be the an-shu or founder. his theory and philosophies. so i guess what i'm saying is each student would have to represent his school/art/style/dojo for this question to be answered correctly.


*note* this was on the bottom of another post. i guess i forgot to direct it to your question.

rtms: well a bit much to put on one post. the best thing i recommend to start with is this article.
http://www.totalwarrior.com/Rick_Tew_s_Ninjitsu/Total_Warrior_Magazine/Tradition_its_History/tradition_its_history.html

its not very long and i just starts off with some of our philosophies.
peace

Enson, that's a good article and I agree with most of it as written and probably all of the ideas it was trying to get across.

I say kudos to you and your group for going out and doing what you think is right and putting it out there for the rest to see.

As a follow up, why the term ninjutsu? Is your system based from another?

Thanks!

Enson, why the term ninjutsu? Is your system based from another?

Thanks!first off thanks.
well sensei tew learned most of his "legit ninjutsu" training came from robert bussey. in that time bussey was teaching his modern version of ninjutsu. rick tew got what he learned from that training and enhanced it with some of what he learned in hapkido, and other arts. the foundation is ninjutsu/taijutsu...(technique, theory, philosophies) but with completely modern applications.
that is why we associate with ninjutsu but proclaim modernism (sp). hope that answers some-what your question.

Yes it did! Thanks again!

I predict sojobow will return soon...

The Black Dragon Society is a franchise of dojo's (if you wanna call them that) that breeds thugs and puts the words martial and art on a slant of shame.

The 400 year tradition did have some good morals and ways but nowadays it is a tradition of thuggery (their affiliation with the yakuza doesn't help them) and has a bad habit of raising bad authors who write crappy books about NINJITSU...this is a very negative post and i apologize for this but Sojobow i think its best you retract you're statements regarding the Black Dragon Society, Enson and Elizium both brought up good points which you should read over thoroughly.

much respect
-andrew
The gentleman asked for a list of schools/groups. Note the word "groups."

The subject at hand, or in question, is the list. Unfortunatley, the list will not be anywhere near comprehensive as I don't believe necessary knowledge exist here able to compile such a list and there are HUNDREDS of organizations existing that PREFER NOT TO BE ENUMERATED ON ANYONE'S LIST. Think it has to do with Ninjitsu being an art of invisibility and a true artist will not devulge his/her affiliations. Why reveal a hidden weapon. The term "Black" has other useages other than the color - which it isn't.

Too bad we spend an inordinant amount of time discussing people rather than the sciences. But we did get past 3 posts on the subject before it deterioriated. We made it all the way to #8. We await your list - imput.

I know of personally, quite a number of Ninpo teachers who will only teach their children. Where do they fit on any "list?"

Oh, and FYI, sojobow is spelled with a small "s" - never capitalized. There is nothing warranting any retraction especially when they both said the same thing I first said.

In keeping with the theme that Brother John intended for the thread, then, what makes these systems unique? Perhaps if everyone was to just tell us a bit about their systems fundamental paradigms, the differences would become apparent to the readers.

:jediduel: oh here we go!

Just a quick note, the Black Dragon Society has nothing to do with ninjutsu outside of the fantasies of people like Ashida Kim.

The original was a Japanese society that started in the 20th century to serve Japan's interests. Yes there was some sneaking and killing people from behind, nothing that the rest of the world has not seen and nothing "ninjutsu"specific about it.

The second group was started by a guy calling himself Count Dante who had some martial arts schools and ads on the back of several comic books. Some people consider him a joke, some a great martial artist. But his orginization had no link to ninjutsu until Ashida Kim tried using the name and affiliation. Rather nasty legal stuff went on.

Kim started a few orginizations overseas using the Black Dragon name. Here is an example of one of them.

http://www.blackdragongermany.de/

Personally, I find them pretty amusing. They have no affiliation with either the original Japanese version or the one started in the US. They were started by Ashida Kim followers as far as I can tell.

Just a side note, whenever people like Sojobow start talking about things like this, demand sources that you can access yourself. If he refuses to give it (check his past posts- it is his pattern to do so) then just ignore what he has to say. It saves a lot of screaming in the long run.

Ah yes, Count Dante - and his "Dance of the Deadly Hands". I actually read and committed that thing to memory about 17 years ago in High School. I get a chuckle out of it now.

The original was a Japanese society that started in the 20th century to serve Japan's interests. Yes there was some sneaking and killing people from behind, nothing that the rest of the world has not seen and nothing "ninjutsu"specific about it.
Exactly. If we were to claim any killing done behind backs, than most cases of homicide would involve ninja. The martial art commonly associated with the BDS is Shorinji Kempo. only because a member (Doshin So) "created" it when he "studied at the Shaolin temple".

Cheers.
Shogun

If we were to claim any killing done behind backs, than most cases of homicide would involve ninja.

Ninja are not the only people who kill people from behind. And I have never seen any credible evidence that the kokuryukai had any link to Japanese ninjutsu traditions. I am still looking, but so far nothing.

Oh, and I should have mentioned that the "Black Dragon Society" was named because "Black Dragon" is the Chinese charecters that make up the Amdur river that was the northernmost point in Japanese imperial expansion plans.

Ninja are not the only people who kill people from behind.
Yeah, I know. thats the point I was making. You had mentioned that just because there was behind-back-killing doesnt mean there was ninja.

There was/is the Black Dragon Tong of Retribution, The Black Dragon Society and the Black Dragon Fighting Society (whose membership comprised mostly of Koga) just to name 3. The Black Dragon Fighting Society, together with one Chinese Ninjitsuist and two Korean Ninjitsuist were responsible for a failed attempt to assassinate Ieyasu Tokugawa 5 centuries ago. Old Shogun escaped with the help of a snitch from what I've read.

And you read that where? Just curious...

could we please, perhaps, create a seperate thread on this "Black Dragon Society" stuff and it's merits as a 'ninjitsu' entity?
Seems to be keeping most from highlighting what makes their Ninjutsu group/school...whathaveyou...unique.
Seems a distraction.
Thanks

Your Brother
John

Well one quick google search and I turn up facts regarding the Black Dragons and Yakuza.



Black Dragon Description

The Black Dragons were the Amur River Society (Kokuryu-kai) in 1930s and 1940s Japan. The Black Dragons were ultranationalists heavily involved in the conquest of China, and as spies and fifth columnists subverting nations targeted for conquest. The Black Dragons were active up and down the Pacific Coast of North and South America. In the United States, Black Dragons were a concern to Lieutenant Commander K.D. Ringle (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/ringle-1.htm) of U.S. Navy Intelligence and other security officials. On December 7, 1942; Black Dragons led Banzai! cheers at the U.S. Manzanar Relocation Center; the anniversary of the Japanese attack on U.S. forces at Pearl Harbor in 1941. The Black Dragons led and fomented riots and carried out acts of violence at Manzanar, Tule Lake Segregation Center, and other sites where Japanese enemy aliens and Americans of Japanese ancestry were located. The Black Dragons and other ultranationalist organizations provided the nucleus for the formation of the postwar Yakuza (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/ultranationalists/yakuza.htm) organized crime syndicates. See (Dubro and Kaplan, pages 36, 67, 85 and 192 (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/ultranationalists/ykzaref1.htm#dubro and kaplan)). Also see Tony Matthews in Shadows Dancing (http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/japanref.htm#shadows dancing), pages 43, 46 and 222-223. A number of Black Dragon members were in the Japanese government and many were charged as war criminals in 1945.

http://vikingphoenix.com/public/JapanIncorporated/1895-1945/dragon.htm
http://www.angelfire.com/dc/1spy/Black_Dragon.html

http://members.tripod.com/ravenshrine/blackdragon.html

So sojobow, if you like the Black Dragon society you better chop off a finger and go to Japan.

There was/is the Black Dragon Tong of Retribution, The Black Dragon Society and the Black Dragon Fighting Society (whose membership comprised mostly of Koga) just to name 3. The Black Dragon Fighting Society, together with one Chinese Ninjitsuist and two Korean Ninjitsuist were responsible for a failed attempt to assassinate Ieyasu Tokugawa 5 centuries ago. Old Shogun escaped with the help of a snitch from what I've read.

The above seems to come from Ashida Kim's history page. (http://ashidakim.com/history.html) The original story is the plot for a grade "B" ninja movie that was released in America about 20 years ago.

Somehow I just can't take Ashida Kim seriously, or people that use him as a source. You may note that people with a reputation for serious research won't touch the story as Sojobow states it and as it appears on Kim's site. It is just a silly movie plot with nothing to do with reality.

Kind of like sojobow.

The above seems to come from Ashida Kim's history page. (http://ashidakim.com/history.html) The original story is the plot for a grade "B" ninja movie that was released in America about 20 years ago.

Somehow I just can't take Ashida Kim seriously, or people that use him as a source. You may note that people with a reputation for serious research won't touch the story as Sojobow states it and as it appears on Kim's site. It is just a silly movie plot with nothing to do with reality.

Kind of like sojobow.
Shhhhh we are ninjas, we want to trip up sojobow the ninj3r :2pistols: :rofl:

CHILDREN PLEASE!!!!!!! Anyone here notice that threads become very disjointed by people with words like "Bujinkan" or Taijutsu" typed in their "Art and Rank" profiles? Maybe if they'd just go away and post in their own sub-section, we'd be better off here.

Brother John asked for schools or groups that would be considered as practicing in the modern world. Wish those with the Buj and the Tai would just go practice your Samurai artform and let us Modern Warriors deal with ours. Just a thought on how we might be able to get back to Brother John's question.

And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

I would. Whatyathink?

Shhhhh we are ninjas, we want to trip up sojobow the ninj3r :2pistols: :rofl:

See what I mean. Roley's Raiders.

Brother John asked for schools or groups that would be considered as practicing in the modern world.

More specifically, ninja groups. Which is why your suggestion of the black dragon society caused such mirth. The fact that your historical source turns out to be a bad ninja movie plot on the Ashida Kim site only makes it funnier.

See what I mean. Roley's Raiders.
Roley's Raiders...lol. Would you put me into that category Sojobow? I mean heck, I have the word 'Taijutsu' typed into my art/rank profile!

But me and Don have bumped heads in the past and still do on certain issues so i wouldnt call myself one of his Raiders perse.

"And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

As Don has already stated, Br John was referring to "Ninja groups" not elite combat units,although some consider them to be 'modern day ninja' or the modern equivelent to what the Ninja were in the 17th century.Personally i believe this to be an incorrect comparison. And i do not need to explain myself as those familiar with ninja history and what a ninja was/is would understand.

But I will. Todays special Forces are primarily combat Units,trained specifically for the defence of a country and to take on assignements not suitable for the regular Forces.This means skills are honed to near perfection such as counter-terrorism day in day out.There is very little spiritual development and philosophical teaching in todays SF.Without disrespect to any SF personel many of them don't have the appreciation for the natural world like the traditional ninja would've.I think thats a fair statement.

Finally with comparing modern SF to traditional ninja we are forgetting a major fact, Ninja were not primarily elite combatants!!!!!!!!they did not flip out and kill or train to do the latter everyday of their lives!!! The only fair comparison that can be made between the two is that similarities can be found in 'certain roles' such as escorting/protecting important political figures,covert raids,stealth techniques and such but i will end there...absorb this and debate it as you wish,all that was very general and hypothetical.So relax lets nt get personel.

See what I mean. Roley's Raiders.Roley's Raiders...lol. Would you put me into that category Sojobow? I mean heck, I have the word 'Taijutsu' typed into my art/rank profile!

But me and Don have bumped heads in the past and still do on certain issues so i wouldnt call myself one of his Raiders perse.

"And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"

As Don has already stated, Br John was referring to "Ninja groups" not elite combat units,although some consider them to be 'modern day ninja' or the modern equivelent to what the Ninja were in the 17th century.Personally i believe this to be an incorrect comparison. And i do not need to explain myself as those familiar with ninja history and what a ninja was/is would understand.

But I will. Todays special Forces are primarily combat Units,trained specifically for the defence of a country and to take on assignements not suitable for the regular Forces.This means skills are honed to near perfection such as counter-terrorism day in day out.There is very little spiritual development and philosophical teaching in todays SF.Without disrespect to any SF personel many of them don't have the appreciation for the natural world like the traditional ninja would've.I think thats a fair statement.

Finally with comparing modern SF to traditional ninja we are forgetting a major fact, Ninja were not primarily elite combatants!!!!!!!!they did not flip out and kill or train to do the latter everyday of their lives!!! The only fair comparison that can be made between the two is that similarities can be found in 'certain roles' such as escorting/protecting important political figures,covert raids,stealth techniques and such but i will end there...absorb this and debate it as you wish,all that was very general and hypothetical.So relax lets nt get personel.

much respect
-andrew

apology for the "double posting" :idunno:

And in that vain or vein, Brother John, would you consider today's Special Forces (i.e., Navy Seals, Army Rangers), U. S. Central Intelligence, S.W.A.T,British Intelligence and Special Forces as "a list of schools/groups that would fall under this catagory?"
I would. Whatyathink?
No, I wouldn't. They have a similar function in their paramilitary/covert-ops, but that's about the extent of it. I wouldn't consider them a "ninjutsu school or group" really. Guess I'm getting at schools/groups/associations....etc. that are derived from Real Ninjutsu but have been modernized.
Thanks

Your Brother
John