Take Downs

[GouRonin]

I'm a firm believer that if you want to win against smeone in your system you need to go outside your system. So having said that I need to know or at least get an idea of some BJJ take downs vs a Judo opponent.

I like to cheat.
:iws:

[Icepick]

If I had to fight a Judo guy, I would either shoot for a double leg (wrestling), or jump to guard. I don't like to get dumped on my head. :erg:

[Graham674]

Tut tut, resurrecting another old thread here, very bad.

However, I share your interest in seeing BJJers and Judoka mixing it up, mostly because it's one of the few MA that you can test judo against full-out without getting kicked in the head ;-). Fortunately there is a decent pool of 'grapplers' in Toronto who are intersted in cross-training so I get to see a bit of it.

I was watching a couple of white belts towards the end of our fall beginner session. One of them was apparently something on the level of a BJJ white belt. During randori he just kept jumping to guard over and over and over. Although he was supposedly doing the judo yellow belt curriculum, I don't think I ever saw him try an actual judo technique. So much for cross-training.

Guess what though, butt-flopping worked great. He could do it consistently, and there was little his uke could do to stop him. Two big caveats though. First, it doesn't really do much under judo rules, because it's pretty likely that uke is going to be able to get back to his feet and force a restart. Second, if you're going to do it, you really ought to be sure you have better ne waza than the guy you're trying it on!

JG

[ace]

If U want the best takedowns train with Wrestlers.
I have tarined with many grapplers
And found that Freestyle & Folk wrestlers
Have the best takedowns.

:asian:
Primo

[jfarnsworth]

When I was in my high school wrestling program that's what our coach drilled the most. Take them down and let them back up. Usually a couple of hrs. each day were trained on takedowns. We spent time on the mat as well in the up or down position but more on our feet. He taught us countless number of takedowns and from various positions. I got involved in Greco-Roman tournaments as well as Freestyle tournaments. Nothing can come close to jut plain drilling takedonws over and over again. Not all grappling school's will do this. If you have a good rapport with a school near by ask the wrestling coach if you can get involved. I live about a mile away from where I graduated from and now the wrestling coach is someone that graduated a year under me, I can go in anytime I wish all I have to do is ask. But really I prefer to go to my friend's JJ school to work with his students as well as himself.
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I'm a firm believer that if you want to win against smeone in your system you need to go outside your system. So having said that I need to know or at least get an idea of some BJJ take downs vs a Judo opponent.

I like to cheat.
:iws:
Well, most people who are proficient in any one system can see attacks coming, no matter from what style they are from.

However, against most novice people, I find that a feint jab to put their hands up and shooting in and doing a lateral finish works fine.

[Handsword]

At a very good BJJ school in which I trained, we covered one takedown that was refered to as being good against a Judo player (ie. taking it to the ground without being slammed there).

It involved a cross sleeve grip (yeah, I know, not everyone has sleeves) followed by the opposite foot moving to the opponent's hip (eg. left hand grabs opponent's left sleeve while the right foot braces against opponent's left hip). This position is only transitional while sitting back to the ground (push/pull) while the other leg swings out wide as a counter weight. This counter weight assists a spin (to the right side in the example above) so that the opponent's heel can be grabbed (eg. right heel).

From this position, another push/pull (hip and heel) takes the opponent down while the sleeve grip can be used to gain a top position. We also covered a lot of 'what-if' scenarios from here to ensure the opponent goes down.

I hope that description makes sense to most of you.

I was taught this one week before going into a national BJJ comp (my first BJJ comp) and managed to pull it off.

[Infight]

Hi, I train with Judokas everyday in my life, in Brazil we crosstrain Judo-Jiu-Jitsu everyday, there are many judokas training Judo and Jiu-Jitsu guys training Judo.
Well, i think the icepick suggestion is the best one when you face a fight with a Judoka with no punchs and kicks, cause if there is, take him to youre guard when hes standing he could land a punch on you.
Another suggestion is go directly to his legs ( since youre not in a Judo competiton, cause its not allowed), threw yourself on his legs, grab one of them, and cross youre legs on that leg you caught, twist youre body to take down, and go for leglock, usefull too.

[arnisador]

Mixing Judo and BJJ sounds like a great idea.

Is it the same instructors or different ones for the different arts?

[Infight]

Here we train in different gyms each art, but almost everyone that pratices one, pratices the other too, there are alot of good Judo dojos around here, as well as BJJ gyms.
Olympic team of Judo of Brazil, trains near my house in a Club called Sao Caetano, and all of them trains Jiu-Jitsu, as well as many guys that pratices Jiu-Jitsu goes there to pratice Judo.
Its not the same instructors, but they usually knows each other, so if you begin to pratice Judo, hell teach you some common moves of BJJ and how to avoid it, and do that praticing, and the same happens in BJJ gyms, cause taking opponent down you earn some points in champs.

[J-kid]

I cross train and i am good at General Grappling, Not to mention i am becoming a awsome striker.

TO see what i train in click on the profile button.
<-------

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by GouRonin
I'm a firm believer that if you want to win against smeone in your system you need to go outside your system.
:iws:


Thats pretty much what I live by! If you compete same style against same style, then the one in that style that is better has the edge. You need to have the edge.

I don't work the takedowns that much because they seem to happen anyway. But I've got a new guy that has been showing me some JKD that I had not seen before. Anyway, he showed me a takedown that is quick and effiecient.

Its similar to to a wrestling manuever but your knees only go about half the distance down compared to a single or double leg takedown. If you can picture that. Now picture a boxer that bobs and weaves a slips punches. Now put the two together.

Here it is. (Similar to a bob and weave) Picture the left lead punch and you are in a conventional boxing stance. You bend your knees half the distance (of a wrestling takedown) while stepping forward to grab around the waist (its almost like slipping a punch).

Its not a shoot, its used when the punchs are flying. its pretty basic, but its quick and if you do it slowly and feel for the ribs and dig your wrist into the ribs, it causes a lot of pain in the ribs, so much so that it is a perfect distraction to complete the takedown.

It might be a little hard to picture but if you can figure it out, you'll use it.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Well, most people who are proficient in any one system can see attacks coming, no matter from what style they are from.



I don't agree with that 100%. You say "proficient in any one system," that is way to general. Most systems are not that good against other systems and proficient does not mean mastery.

To defend against other styles without knowing anything about them, you would need to be more than "proficient." That is my take. You may consider proficient to be much better. But I think the early UFC's prove what I just said.

I have a JKD background and I'm training with a JKD guy that is throwing all kinds of stuff at me and our arts are similar. So I'm sure that you could undertand why I beleive what I am saying.

Although I do think that I see attacks coming at me pretty good, I beleive that the way that I see things is due to practicing in several systems over the years.

[JDenz]

If you are talking about takedowns without worrying about getting punched or kicked you definitly wa to practice soem wrestling.

[Josh]

Man, do something that is Judo, like start by doing the normal grappling tugging at the gi thing, but then, you just set your weight. Cause if he's Judo, let him do all the work, cause he's gonna try to hip toss you most likely after that. Then, when his back is against you, put on your favorite CHOKE HOLD!!! I wold knock the back of his knee out, sending them to the mat, and then of course though, at the same time, bring him down with that choke. But just know that any thing will happen. And well, don't use all your strength either. Relax and since it's competition, have a good time. Don't worry about certain techniques. Unless you have to worry about what's legal or not to use. But hey, good stuff.

[twinkletoes]

I have 2 strategies that work pretty well against the judoka-

#1 Standing submissions (guillotine, collar chokes, bent armlocks, etc.)

#2 Any time he turns to go for a hip throw of any kind, a shoulder throw, or even an outer leg reap, hug around his waist with both arms. Take the leg that is "more behind him" (In other words, if he is coming in with his right hip leading, you use your left leg) and sweep it across the backs of his ankles while you drop your weight down. Hang as much dead weight as you can as you apply this move. As you pull him down and reap his ankles, roll him to his far side and take the back. You will usually land with both of your left sides touching the ground (if you sweep with the left leg).

Best,

~TT

[Aegis]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
I have 2 strategies that work pretty well against the judoka-

#1 Standing submissions (guillotine, collar chokes, bent armlocks, etc.)

#2 Any time he turns to go for a hip throw of any kind, a shoulder throw, or even an outer leg reap, hug around his waist with both arms. Take the leg that is "more behind him" (In other words, if he is coming in with his right hip leading, you use your left leg) and sweep it across the backs of his ankles while you drop your weight down. Hang as much dead weight as you can as you apply this move. As you pull him down and reap his ankles, roll him to his far side and take the back. You will usually land with both of your left sides touching the ground (if you sweep with the left leg).

Best,

~TT

1 is ineffective against most judoka I have trained with. Could be done, but it ties up both of your arms for a technique that is usually easily countered with a particular grip and a throw.

2 can be VERY easily countered with a foot sweep by the judoka. I have seen that happen more times than I can remember, and have had the misfortune to be on the recieving end of such a counter, which ultimately resulted in a trip to A+E to get my eyebrow stitched back up.


Perhaps in both cases I've trained with diffeent sorts of judoka, but generally speaking I'd recommend different strategies for dealing with them.

[twinkletoes]

Well, I guess I missed two words.

"I have 2 strategies that work pretty well for me against the judoka."

While I agree that they can be easily countered, so can anything else. I guess it depends on you, your ability with the moves in question, your opponent, and his familiarity with the moves in question.

Best,

~TT

[Aegis]

ok, I should also have included those words, and a comment that I have tried said moves in judo competitions a few times. The standing submissions led to disastor, the rear takedown worked once. Aside from that, my forward hip throws worked very well, even against people who should have been able to counter them easily.

On the other hand, I lost as many fights as I won, so my techniques is far from flawless :)

[twinkletoes]

Hey, no prob buddy.

I was working out with a judoka for awhile, and these were the *only* moves I ever pulled on him successfully from standing. He took me down easily about 75% of the time (though he often landed in my guard), so even the moves I got were not exactly "consistent, judo-destroying" type moves. They were more often last ditch efforts to take him down and get a good position.

I know exactly where you're coming from. :)

Best,

~TT

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I don't agree with that 100%. You say "proficient in any one system," that is way to general. Most systems are not that good against other systems and proficient does not mean mastery.

To defend against other styles without knowing anything about them, you would need to be more than "proficient." That is my take. You may consider proficient to be much better. But I think the early UFC's prove what I just said.

I have a JKD background and I'm training with a JKD guy that is throwing all kinds of stuff at me and our arts are similar. So I'm sure that you could undertand why I beleive what I am saying.

Although I do think that I see attacks coming at me pretty good, I beleive that the way that I see things is due to practicing in several systems over the years.
Nah

Say you're a boxer. Then you'll see attacks coming. If you make the transition to wing chun, you'll still see the punches coming.

And I wasn't aware that systems fought. You can't limit the style, which many people are doing. You might look at say, for the sake of example, TKD as ineffecient and incomplete. It's just high kicks they say. That's what I mean by limiting a style through sheer ignorance.

I met a wing chun guy at a seminar. I have very little wing chun experience. However, I had been training in combat TKD, boxing, and wrestling since childhood. Everything I did, the guy saw it coming. And I wasn't no slouch either, as I was very quick and hit hard at that age.

Just because one system doesn't have a certain technique doesn't mean one can't defend from it. To say that is stupidity.

[MartialArtist]

And if you bring the UFC into the mix... The UFC, even in its early days, was still a sport. However, many people countered and attacked people when they also had no experience working with X or Y technique. A sport wrestler isn't used to having kicks and punches thrown at him, but depending on the person, can very well defend themselves against it. A boxer can defend against kicks. In the UFC, many boxers had trouble with takedowns. But look at their backgrounds, they came from a purely sport background. Wrestlers coming from a purely sport background did better than boxers due to the environment of the fights. Plus, many of the sport wrestlers "used techniques outside of their system" as you put it. I mean, sport wrestlers don't punch. However, in the UFC, they did punch, they did pound on the ground, etc. That is what I mean.

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by akja
I don't agree with that 100%. You say "proficient in any one system," that is way to general. Most systems are not that good against other systems and proficient does not mean mastery.

To defend against other styles without knowing anything about them, you would need to be more than "proficient." That is my take. You may consider proficient to be much better. But I think the early UFC's prove what I just said.

I have a JKD background and I'm training with a JKD guy that is throwing all kinds of stuff at me and our arts are similar. So I'm sure that you could undertand why I beleive what I am saying.

Although I do think that I see attacks coming at me pretty good, I beleive that the way that I see things is due to practicing in several systems over the years.
BTW, by proficient, I mean at least 10+ years of experience. Profiecience is actually understanding the principles of physics and biomechanics and knowing how to apply them. Truly understanding the principles opens up many techniques at your disposal as understanding the principle means you can vary certain techniques and kinda go with the flow. You can make quick adjustments depending on the person and so forth. Perhaps mastery was a better word.

[MartialArtist]

So what I'm exactly saying is that there is no rule book for fighting, nor are there any rule books for systems.

There is no rule that says wrestlers can't punch, boxers can shoot, etc. Systems of combat are not set like that. If you saw me in action, you probably wouldn't think of it as TKD/hapkido/yudo. Even with my backgrounds in wrestling and boxing, and if you knew that, you still wouldn't say it's this and that. Every combat art is complete, and whether you choose to accept it is up to you. Now the arts don't spend equal time in the ranges of fighting, but that's what makes them unique, it's not a question on superiority. When you see people fight, many times, you can guess their lineage, but it is never 100% correct. You can't view arts in a narrow view. You can't think of it as in this situation, X art will handle it this way and Y art will handle it this way. That is impossible and there are millions of variables. And within each system, there are styles within the system, and styles within that.

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
BTW, by proficient, I mean at least 10+ years of experience. Profiecience is actually understanding the principles of physics and biomechanics and knowing how to apply them. Truly understanding the principles opens up many techniques at your disposal as understanding the principle means you can vary certain techniques and kinda go with the flow. You can make quick adjustments depending on the person and so forth. Perhaps mastery was a better word.

My use of the word proficient in my posts could be defined as "well versed", not quite equal to mastery. I consider myself to be a proficient ground grappler but I am not a master grappler.:asian: