What is the best way to teach women self defense

[ppko]

Should I teach full boar or start out slowly like I would for any other student what will attract women to my school

[Sarah]

I would suggest starting out slow, especially if they are new to any form of self-defence/martial arts.

A lot of woman can be quite self conscious/shyhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_202v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) and are not use to the type of contact you often get in martial arts, it can be really uncomfortable having someone getting in your space for the first time.

When I first did a self defence class in high school, it was quite relaxed not much pressure to perform or be strong etc.

Maybe have an intro to start and then have a more advance class??

This is assuming the ladies from there are similar to the ladies over here.

Also a nice looking instructor helps http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_9.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

[ppko]

I would suggest starting out slow, especially if they are new to any form of self-defence/martial arts.

A lot of woman can be quite self conscious/shyhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_6_202v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001) and are not use to the type of contact you often get in martial arts, it can be really uncomfortable having someone getting in your space for the first time.

When I first did a self defence class in high school, it was quite relaxed not much pressure to perform or be strong etc.

Maybe have an intro to start and then have a more advance class??

This is assuming the ladies from there are similar to the ladies over here.

Also a nice looking instructor helps http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_1_9.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)


Hopefully I have the last part covered

[TigerWoman]

There's another thread where this was discussed:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12588

TW

[Sarah]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/37.gif

[Andrew Green]

I would say don't... have them do the regular classes.

You probably want to teach them to not be intimidated by men and how to fight men, and you are going to do this by removing all the men from the class so that they only train with women...

Women's self-defence courses are basically money grabs IMO.

[hedgehogey]

Andrew Green's got it right on the money. My mom took the IMPACT course twice. They trained in an atmosphere where you're always encouraged by all your girlfriends, and you never know if you've ****ed up. Also, the suit guys were clearly not actually attacking.

Here's how you teach a woman to fight a man: HAVE HER FIGHT A MAN. She MUST do full power, full resistance training vs a determined, aggresive man. You can start out slowly but that must be the eventual goal.

[Sarah]

I would say don't... have them do the regular classes.

You probably want to teach them to not be intimidated by men and how to fight men, and you are going to do this by removing all the men from the class so that they only train with women...

Women's self-defence courses are basically money grabs IMO.I would agree with what you say, but that wont help to get the ladies in to train. I know when I was younger the thought of going into a class and training with guys was really indimitateding.

I feel that if you give the ladies some basic's, build their confidence, then get them training with guys. The idea is to get them there in a non-threatening environment and help them to believe they can do it. Not all ladies will just jump straight in especially if they had bad experiences in the past.

I think it is more likely going to be the ladies with low confidence etc that are going to have trouble defending themselves, and they are the one's that may not go to a class with men?

[Andrew Green]

As long as it is recognized as a intro class to get them into a mixed training environment and not a program of its own.

False confidence can be more dangerous then low confidence.

[ppko]

As long as it is recognized as a intro class to get them into a mixed training environment and not a program of its own.

False confidence can be more dangerous then low confidence.
I agree 100%

[Sarah]

As long as it is recognized as a intro class to get them into a mixed training environment and not a program of its own.

False confidence can be more dangerous then low confidence.
I totally agree.

You have to start somewhere, and its better to start slow and work your way up than to never start because its to scary.

[ppko]

I totally agree.

You have to start somewhere, and its better to start slow and work your way up than to never start because its to scary.

Sarah
Just like to say it has been a real joy having you on Martial Talk

[Sarah]

Sarah
Just like to say it has been a real joy having you on Martial Talk
Gee thanks http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_13_6.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

Im really enjoying the discussions. Who would have thought you could have so many fabulous, knowledgeable people in one place. I have learnt heaps the short time I have been here.

[shesulsa]

Personally, I think it depends on the individual student. If you have a woman who has been attacked coming in to learn self-defense and she's too darn timid to work with men, let her work with women first and slowly introduce her to working with men - and when you do, pick a large, strong but gentle-hearted man whom you have discussed the situation with and is prepared to handle the situation if she freaks out. Best do that privately.

I think it's important to find the needs of each student as early on as possible.

I think it's good to start generally everyone in a regular class provided you have excellent control over your students and do not fear the outcome if she steps on the wrong toes or someone's else's nose gets out of joint.

If you've got young women coming into your arena, it is essential to impress upon them the importance of regular training for self-defense if they want to be effective. When my teacher does women's self-defense seminars, he always stresses that women practice with each other - encourages them to come in to the dojang to visit and practice.

And...ahem...discourage fraternization if at all possible - what usually happens in this case is when the relationship is over, the guy stays and the girl leaves and rarely returns to martial arts.

[Brother John]

Personally, I think it depends on the individual student. If you have a woman who has been attacked coming in to learn self-defense and she's too darn timid to work with men, let her work with women first and slowly introduce her to working with men - and when you do, pick a large, strong but gentle-hearted man whom you have discussed the situation with and is prepared to handle the situation if she freaks out. Best do that privately.

I think it's important to find the needs of each student as early on as possible.

I think it's good to start generally everyone in a regular class provided you have excellent control over your students and do not fear the outcome if she steps on the wrong toes or someone's else's nose gets out of joint.

If you've got young women coming into your arena, it is essential to impress upon them the importance of regular training for self-defense if they want to be effective. When my teacher does women's self-defense seminars, he always stresses that women practice with each other - encourages them to come in to the dojang to visit and practice.

And...ahem...discourage fraternization if at all possible - what usually happens in this case is when the relationship is over, the guy stays and the girl leaves and rarely returns to martial arts.

A very thoughtful reply Shesulsa.

Personally, I think it depends on the individual student. I think it's important to find the needs of each student as early on as possible.
I agree, and this covers more areas than just gender differences too.

let her work with women first and slowly introduce her to working with men
This is excellent advice, but what if they are the first female in the school?
When I was younger I was in a school in which there was only one female. I often wondered if there were any 'catches' in her starting up there or if it was all smooth sailing. She was one tough cookie though and I'd bet that IF there had been problems....she'd have addressed them herself.

slowly introduce her to working with men - and when you do, pick a large, strong but gentle-hearted man whom you have discussed the situation with
I agree with where you are going with this, but I'd put one step in before that one.... I'd first have her work either with just myself (as I am answerable for My school...might put her at ease) or a man of smaller frame that I trust. Once she's more accustomed to dealing with a man, I'd then have her start working with bigger men. I think there needs to be these progressive steps in there.

what usually happens in this case is when the relationship is over, the guy stays and the girl leaves and rarely returns to martial arts.
Amen and halleuja sister!! I've seen that scenario over and over. :rolleyes:

Your Brother
John

[shesulsa]

This is excellent advice, but what if they are the first female in the school? When I was younger I was in a school in which there was only one female. I often wondered if there were any 'catches' in her starting up there or if it was all smooth sailing. She was one tough cookie though and I'd bet that IF there had been problems....she'd have addressed them herself. Good point. Perhaps an interview with her would be revealing. Personally, I've seen women come an go at my dojang and there are two other female students besides me - both are orange. I'm half-black. It's difficult for me to work with them now because I'm training for my black belt test. Some guys (especially the younger ones) don't want to train with me (I'm 38). So there are some bumps, but overall, if a gal's gonna quit, she's gonna quit.


I agree with where you are going with this, but I'd put one step in before that one.... I'd first have her work either with just myself (as I am answerable for My school...might put her at ease) or a man of smaller frame that I trust. Once she's more accustomed to dealing with a man, I'd then have her start working with bigger men. I think there needs to be these progressive steps in there. Excellent, if I may say so. Without a doubt, progression is the key to all teaching, no?


Amen and halleuja sister!! I've seen that scenario over and over. :rolleyes: Go tell it on the mountain. We have a situation right now where I train where two students were dating - seriously for a fairly long time. They just broke up and you can tell the difference in their training - but I'm VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY glad to say they have BOTH stayed...so far. I truly hope that remains the case. If they both stay and continue their training, they will both be SO VERY GLAD in a couple of years.

Respectfully -

[shesulsa]

You might also consider having a chat with your fellas when you have the chance about working with women in a respectful manner. There are women who are there for basic training and esthetic martial arts, then there are women who are tough and don't mind being hit. It's important to find out who those people are. Some guys will go all out on any woman who comes in, thinking "she needs to get used to it because that's what's gonna happen in the street." So some of your tactics will depend on the reactions and actions of the males in the class.

I'm assuming you're talking about bringing women into your dojang for regular training, not seminars - that's a little different. I think content, application make the difference in good seminars. We try to bring the whole class to a seminar for the women to try things out on - and they are never attacked. My teacher focuses more on awareness than anything else, quick releases, etcetera. Oh, I'm blabbing now - need to hit the bike.

[Lisa]

I train MMA. It is very close contact and mainly male dominated. When the classes were first introduced I thought there was no way in hell I was ever going to do that. I am not really certain what changed my mind. Curiosity mostly and the fact that it really looked like a whole lot of fun! I first started training with the women in the class and then slowly the men. My apprehension of being in "those positions" with the men in the class passed quickly. The attitude of the instructor helped a lot. It is made clear that we are there to train and have fun. No room for egos, we can all learn from eachother. Trust in my training partners helps too.

I think the atmosphere in which the classes are being taught is what is important. Attitude is everything, at least it was for me.

[Brother John]

The attitude of the instructor helped a lot. It is made clear that we are there to train and have fun. No room for egos, we can all learn from eachother. Trust in my training partners helps too.

I think the atmosphere in which the classes are being taught is what is important. Attitude is everything, at least it was for me.
It sounds like Andrew has been doing well in leading your club!!!

Your points can not be emphasized enough.
The instructors attitude doesn't just set the stage, it IS the stage. The tone is set by the one who opens the doors, the one that everyone looks to for leadership.
Attitude leads the way
or it ends it.
Your Brother
John

[mj-hi-yah]

So far good advice all around! I agree with Shesula that it's case by case. Some women are very timid about working with men. It can be awkward and uncomfortable. It is for some guys too as we've discussed in other threads. In our school we had a women's only class for awhile and it was a great idea, except I think maybe it would have been good if we were required at some point before our first belt test to work with some of the guys. We were allowed to train in mixed classes as well, but I was very comfortable working with the other ladies so I never pushed myself to do so.

As a result I had really not worked with any of the guys at all until the day of my yellow belt test and OMG that was not a good introduction. As most of us who have been there know, you get nervous demonstrating your techniques on a test. I realized after that test just how important it was to make myself available to train at least some of the time with guys. On the night of my yellow belt test, one of the biggest guys in the school put me in a bear hug and his size alone scared me so I screamed really loud and :D lol it shook him and he let go because he wasn't expecting it. It was quite funny, but from that experience I learned the importance of training with men to become more proficient at defending myself against them.

Maybe this was a good thing that my instructor did, because it allowed me to come to the realization on my own without him forcing the idea on me. I do also like the idea of having the instructor choose a guy or guys who are good natured and appear less threatening to slowly help a nervous woman built trust in their male training partners.


Attitude leads the way or it ends it.I totally agree the attitude of the instructor is key! :asian:

Nalia I'm so glad that you got over it! :)

[Flatlander]

:lurk:

Just as reference to those wanting a little context to the "dating in the dojo" angle, check out this thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10090) . Most of you have likely read it, many of you have posted there, but not all.

stoolman

[shesulsa]

Beat me to it, Dan - OOPS! - I mean Mr. Flatlander, Sir.

Thanks!

[kenpo tiger]

Flatlander - you don't have to lurk. You're an honorary:eek: . KT

[TigerWoman]

Don't have men present when you are teaching them unless it is a regular class. If they signed up for a seminar, they really don't expect men being there. If they are that brave to sign up. Do some basic kicks, so they know what a front, round and sidekick IS. Then teach punching, so they are familiar with those. Teach simple techniques that do damage, like sidekick to the knee, practice sidekicks hard low on the bag. Practice knee to the groin. Practice eye gouges, ear pops. Practice push attacks, grab attacks, front, behind, etc. but don't teach too much on one day. Have them partner up and go over and over ten times to get them somewhat memorized. Ask them if they have any questions, what ifs? What if you had already opened your car door and an attacker grabs your arm as you sit down? What if you are sitting in the park and an attacker comes from behind in a choke. But not too much. Try to get a seminar spread into six or more sessions. TW

[Feisty Mouse]

Personally, I think it depends on the individual student. If you have a woman who has been attacked coming in to learn self-defense and she's too darn timid to work with men, let her work with women first and slowly introduce her to working with men - and when you do, pick a large, strong but gentle-hearted man whom you have discussed the situation with and is prepared to handle the situation if she freaks out. Best do that privately.

I think it's important to find the needs of each student as early on as possible.

I think it's good to start generally everyone in a regular class provided you have excellent control over your students and do not fear the outcome if she steps on the wrong toes or someone's else's nose gets out of joint.
What she said, with emphasis!!! Some women I know cannot WAIT to get in there and start sparring, and if they get hit, say, Oh YEAH?!?!? and wade in there. Whereas I (and other women I know) are a lot more timid at first, worried about doing the wrong thing or hurting someone. Having instructors or upperbelts go "all out" is completely counterproductive for anyone like that. And for all the women I know who have been attacked, it will probably trigger some bad ju-ju. Take it on a person by person basis.

[Sarah]

What she said, with emphasis!!! Some women I know cannot WAIT to get in there and start sparring, and if they get hit, say, Oh YEAH?!?!? and wade in there. Whereas I (and other women I know) are a lot more timid at first, worried about doing the wrong thing or hurting someone. Having instructors or upperbelts go "all out" is completely counterproductive for anyone like that. And for all the women I know who have been attacked, it will probably trigger some bad ju-ju. Take it on a person by person basis.

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.

The ladies that are keen to get into sparring are the ladies that join a Dojo and start MA, whereas the ladies that are timid are more likely to look into a self defence seminar and maybe get into MA that way.

[Andrew Green]

Exactly the point I was trying to make earlier.

The ladies that are keen to get into sparring are the ladies that join a Dojo and start MA, whereas the ladies that are timid are more likely to look into a self defence seminar and maybe get into MA that way.

Yes, but it is all in the presentation.

Far too often it ends there.

A women's only class might be needed to get some people started, but thats all it is, a start. Everything in it should be geared to increasing the comfort level and getting them into a mixed class.

The problem as has been stated a few times is confidence.

First - HAve them work amongst themselves

second - Bring in some big "safe" looking guys to play with.

Third - Bring in some scarrier looking (but safe) guys to work with

Finally get them in a mixed class.

Until that last step is completed and they are comfortable in it, the person instructing has failed in there task.

[Sarah]

Yes, but it is all in the presentation.

Far too often it ends there.

A women's only class might be needed to get some people started, but thats all it is, a start. Everything in it should be geared to increasing the comfort level and getting them into a mixed class.

The problem as has been stated a few times is confidence.

First - HAve them work amongst themselves

second - Bring in some big "safe" looking guys to play with.

Third - Bring in some scarrier looking (but safe) guys to work with

Finally get them in a mixed class.

Until that last step is completed and they are comfortable in it, the person instructing has failed in there task.
I totally agree with the idea of it being a start, and I love the 'Big Safe Guy'. I think that would work really well.

[kenpo tiger]

Andrew,

Agree with the 'big safe guy' insofaras women who have never been attacked or raped. In those cases, and I would hope that you'd know about them prior to teaching the class, you really have to move slowly. Granted, women get absolutely nothing from training with other women when it comes to fending off a bigger, stronger, etc., but I think it increases confidence in their ability to do SOMETHING, which is, of course, why they decided to try taking a class to begin with. KT

[TigerWoman]

I agree with Kenpo Tiger. If they make it past the first few classes in the seminar, they might be more willing to up the stakes. Mr. Green does have it planned out well getting it more "real". I'm all for that too, but some women we have in regular class don't want to hit or spar, they're in a women's class only. They have a long road to go! TW

[Sarah]

I agree with Kenpo Tiger. If they make it past the first few classes in the seminar, they might be more willing to up the stakes. Mr. Green does have it planned out well getting it more "real". I'm all for that too, but some women we have in regular class don't want to hit or spar, they're in a women's class only. They have a long road to go! TW

Its great they have the option of training in a Womans class, if there was not such a class would those woman even be there??

Better to be walking a long road, than to be sitting on the side of it.

[Lisa]

Its great they have the option of training in a Womans class, if there was not such a class would those woman even be there??

Better to be walking a long road, than to be sitting on the side of it.
Good statment Sarah and I agree with you. I think a woman's confidence has everything to do with her training, expecially when it comes to self defence. Unfortunately I have seen and heard of women that look for a self defence class AFTER being the victim of a violent act instead of before. By that time they are so traumatized that their fear makes the road longer and harder to get to the end of.

[Brother John]

A women's only class might be needed to get some people started, but thats all it is, a start. Everything in it should be geared to increasing the comfort level and getting them into a mixed class.

Very very good point Andrew!
thank you...



Your Brother
John

[Phoenix44]

IMHO, while there is no question that a lot of dojo emphasize self defensive technique, "martial arts" is not the same as "self defense," and I'm a little curious about the idea of mainstreaming into the martial arts classes women whose sole interest is self defense.

To me, self defense is for the purpose of avoiding confrontation altogether, or doing whatever is necessary to get out of there fast. In fact, for a lot of women, the most important part of self-defense is learning that you DESERVE to defend yourself, or that you have the right to say "No." I can see a lot of these women, who may have absolutely no athletic background or interest, being completely put off by even a basic martial arts class.

FAST Defense and EZ Defense programs focus on mindset and very simple physical techniques. The National Women's Martial Arts Federation has a self defense teacher training program which is completely separate from martial arts.

[mj-hi-yah]

IMHO, while there is no question that a lot of dojo emphasize self defensive technique, "martial arts" is not the same as "self defense," and I'm a little curious about the idea of mainstreaming into the martial arts classes women whose sole interest is self defense.

To me, self defense is for the purpose of avoiding confrontation altogether, or doing whatever is necessary to get out of there fast. In fact, for a lot of women, the most important part of self-defense is learning that you DESERVE to defend yourself, or that you have the right to say "No." I can see a lot of these women, who may have absolutely no athletic background or interest, being completely put off by even a basic martial arts class.

FAST Defense and EZ Defense programs focus on mindset and very simple physical techniques. The National Women's Martial Arts Federation has a self defense teacher training program which is completely separate from martial arts.I think the ultimate goal of both is the same - to defend yourself. In martial arts we also focus on avoidance of confrontation and work on heightening our awareness. Women who take self defense definitely learn the quick responses and finding soft tissue targets, and in some cases the focus may be more on the emotional end of the spectrum in terms of leaning that they are deserving of defending themselves. The problem I see with self defense courses is that they are usually one shot deals, and unless women attend self defense classes on a consistent basis or at the very least practice what they have learned, they will not have the desired conditioned response to an attack, and may not remember how to execute what they learned in a "real life attack". I worry about the false sense of security this can give to some women. That is not to say that taking a martial art guarantees a woman's safety, but I think over time consistent training improves a woman's chances of survival. :asian:

[Phoenix44]

I personally did not start martial arts training with the primary goal of self-defense--thought it's a nice side effect.:) And even though our dojo has primarily a self-defensive focus, as opposed to, let's say, a sports focus, it took me years before I felt I'd be even marginally capable in a real self-defensive situation--that's probably because of the mental component. (I felt a lot more comfortable after the EZ Defense courses I took after a few years of MA training) And of course, we probably all have stories of the brown belt who got cold-cocked by his brother-in-law.

But the high school senior going away to college doesn't have years, and may not want to make the commitment to the martial arts. What sort of "self-defense" training do you envision for her?

[mj-hi-yah]

But the high school senior going away to college doesn't have years, and may not want to make the commitment to the martial arts. What sort of "self-defense" training do you envision for her?I think anything is much better than nothing. I think High School is a great time to train young women in self defense. I started a thread seeking advice on that subject in the Women's Forum. I agree with all the things you mentioned about awareness training including some great suggestions I got about helping them map out routes on their new campuses. I think women are usually attacked with the intent of rape or worse therefore most women will be grabbed, choked or tackled in some way so I think it is important to train them as much as you can against these attacks. Teach them to go for soft tissue targets like the eyes and groin. We also teach women to hit three targets quickly (pop pop pop) and run, because you only have two hands to hold areas that hurt and the goal is to preoccupy them with their own pain so you can get away. I would also train them in basic punches so they don't break their own thumbs and in instep snapping kicks to the groin, because ball kicks require more accuracy.

I would also encourage them to continue training if possible in their college town. :)

[kenpo tiger]

MJ said: "I think anything is much better than nothing."And I agree.

It was also pointed out that a lot of women seek self defense training after being attacked, and, again, something is better than nothing at all. Some training could help that same woman defend herself should the situation arise again. I also think that, even if the self defense class is just that - only one class - and the woman who attends practices what she's taught, it's better than nothing at all. Not everyone wants the discipline associated with coming to an organized class once or twice a week. Indeed, part of the problem is her children's schedule(s) and her only free time may be during the day, as is the case with 99% of the women in my school. (I'm the exception - one of the guys, as they always tell me.) Also, I choose not to attend daytime classes because it's solely women and, as I stated in an earlier post, I prefer at this point to train 'live' in as near to a real situation as I can. For a beginner, or a woman who is going for the self defense, exercise, and social aspects of martial arts, women's classes are perfect because it's a non-threatening situation and it encourages them to attend fairly regularly. KT

[TigerWoman]

MJ said: "I think anything is much better than nothing."And I agree.

Indeed, part of the problem is her children's schedule(s) and her only free time may be during the day, as is the case with 99% of the women in my school. ( KT

I tried a community-wide rec program advertised women's beginning class. I got FOUR women signed up. Which I would have gladly taught but my instructor cancelled it without consulting me. TW

[Lisa]

For a beginner, or a woman who is going for the self defense, exercise, and social aspects of martial arts, women's classes are perfect because it's a non-threatening situation and it encourages them to attend fairly regularly. KT
That is how my martial arts experience started. It was a couple of friends and I thinking that this looked fun. It was good exercise and I enjoyed the social aspect of the training. As I became more comfortable, and through the encouragment of my instructor whom I came to trust, I proceeded to where I am today. It was not an over night journey. My outlook on my training has changed. Now, when there is a "new guy" in class and I end up partnered with him, it is him who is uncomfortable in the beginning grappling with me. For me now it is another person for me to train with, someone I can learn from and someone hopefully who will learn from me. I hope all women can someday get to where I am now. How long it takes them to get there is totally up to them, opening the road for them to succeed is dependant on the instructor and his students.

[Insedia_Cantharis]

to be honest, this relies completely on the student. you could go slow at first, but remember to let them move on when thy want to. If they are revving to go harder, let them. Nothing is more frusterating than being held back unneccesarily.

Another option is to just stick them in a regular class and encourage them to participate. try to co-ordinate there first class with that of a comfertable female student. This student will lead bye example.

[hedgehogey]

I completely disagree with the "soft targets" idea. You can't actually practice those techniques full force vs a fully resisting opponent. Even if you put on one of those trash can suits, the reaction is always faked. Getting your head snapped back from a jab, getting taken down and choke, that's a reaction you can't fake. There's no guesswork involved, you KNOW the technique worked.

Without testing under extreme stress, the woman will almost NEVER be able to use the technique when actually attacked. She MUST face down a man who is trying with all his might to overcome her. There is no useful alternative.

[Flatlander]

Gee, I would think that women who HAVE trained in Martial Arts would be better qualified to discuss the issue of how to train a woman to defend herself, what with having the female perspective, having been there, done that, as so on. *I* happen to think that going for 'soft targets' as MJ has stated is an excellent strategy. Each to their own. :asian:

[ppko]

Gee, I would think that women who HAVE trained in Martial Arts would be better qualified to discuss the issue of how to train a woman to defend herself, what with having the female perspective, having been there, done that, as so on. *I* happen to think that going for 'soft targets' as MJ has stated is an excellent strategy. Each to their own. :asian:I agree, that is why I started this thread to get more oppinions on what women think and I have really enjoyed reading the different oppinions

[Phoenix44]

Plus, I'd like to know what man is going to volunteer to be the "attacker" knowing the woman has been taught to go full force poking his eyes out with her fingernails and kicking him full force in the groin!

[Flatlander]

Ask MACaver! He's brave. I'm too busy changing diapers.........:idunno:

[mj-hi-yah]

*I* happen to think that going for 'soft targets' as MJ has stated is an excellent strategy. Each to their own. :asian: :) Thanks Dan! :asian:

Just to clarify, soft tissue targets are not the only targets a woman can go for. However, soft tissue when available is an effective option. Soft targets hurt and are taught in self defense because it is not a learning situation where there is long term conditioned learning taking place. Certainly there are many other strategies that may be more effective, but in the confines of a limited self defense course these techniques and methods can not be explored fully enough to become an automatic response for a woman. If you present them with too much I think you might even cause confusion. Anytime you add an option for a move you increase the response time because a choice has to be made. So in this case with limited sessions, or in some cases one session, I think it best to keep it simple.

Here's just one scenario we use...If you are being choked from the front step in with clasped hands striking his arms (with your forearms) to release their grip then claw his eyes with both hands fanning out and then as you come out of the eye fan (nails make great weapons) grab his shoulders and deliver a striking knee to his groin. This is simple and practical and can be conveyed in a matter of minutes. Take away or hinder his sight and you improve your chances of escape. I agree you can't really claw your partner's eyes out to see if it works, but there is a lot in Martial Arts that can not be fully actualized without seriously hurting your training partners. To train women to have more reality for the groin strike we hold a kick pad in front of ourselves and teach them to grab the shoulders with both hands and thrust a knee into the kick pad. I've seen women do really well with this in a matter of minutes and it's easy to practice and remember.

The groin, if even to stun or help release their grip is a good target in combination with others...:btg:

I agree it's important to train women against charges and full force takedowns, but if they present themselves I still like eyes and the groin and throat as targets for women with limited experience and training time.

[shesulsa]

Thanks, guys.

First of all, train women to carry their purses the way female cops to - the strap length should be such that the top of the bag is at the same level as the waistline. The strap should be over the shoulder on the same side as it is carried - meaning, she shouldn't stick her head through and carry the thing across her body. The strap can be used to strangle her with. Same thing with a back pack. She needs to carry a backpack using one shoulder strap only and letting the other one dangle and one hand on the strap, providing easy access should she need to use the backpack as a shield or weapon or remove it quickly to evade a grab. She can carry a large amount of loose change in the bottom of the purse/backpack and can slap someone with it hard - great to use as a weapon. Knocking someone upside the head with a heavy purse or backpack can be enough to put them out for the count. Encourage women with children to use a fanny pack instead.

Teach women with children to put their children in the car first before the groceries or clothes or whatever she's shopping for, and to roll a window down about an inch before locking the child in (unless it's winter). When they approach the car, look under the car, around the car - especially as they approach. Keys should be out and in the hand before the building is left. Priority one when they get in the car is to close and lock the car door immediately. Makeup, keys, radio, placing the purse in just the right spot, fiddling for something else, answering the cell phone can all wait until all she and all other parties are in and secure.

Vital points are important to know - eyes and throat are very good.

I advise anyone who asks me to study up on the laws governing weapons carriage and usage in their state and local areas before carrying anything at all - knife, gun, pepper spray, etcetera. Scissors count - so do knitting needles, boxcutter knives, steak knives, etcetera. No weapon should be carried unless she can handle it and handle what happens when she uses it. Also, weapons can be taken from and used against her - important fact to stress.

When it comes to going - erm - *gonads* out on a padded male target - not all women have the upper body conditioning to handle this right away. All kinds of things can from hitting it wrong - hands, feet, knees, rotator cuffs can all get damaged if not conditioned properly. They might not even have the mental or intestinal fortitude to do it. Introducing anyone to this kind of training prematurely can have the reverse effect. Especially if they've already been victimized. Here is a thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15706) on understanding where victimized women are coming from. If you cut a woman loose on a male target who has been cut loose on her, this could have the reverse effect - actually make her more timid. If she's a hurricane, and you have guys that have that sink-or-swim attitude towards women training, pair THEM up. Again, individuality breeds the necessary tactics.

The keys to good self-defense remain education, awareness and practice.

Regards

[Bigodinho]

I don't see why women should train any different then men do. My wife and I both study capoeira and we are both at the same level, and I would never hold back on her, and she doesn't hold back either. In fact I personally know some women in capoeira who are more intimidating than some of the men... and the look better doing it. I'm not too familiar with most other martial arts, but in capoeira, we hold no distinction. You are a student. Gender does not matter.

[mj-hi-yah]

Shesulsa as always fantabulous...great idea to see if the women have any issues with men as a result of attacks or abuse! :asian: Also, I'm breaking out my fanny pack today. I never heard that one about the pocketbook stap! Good stuff!

MJ :)

[shesulsa]

I'd also like to say that it's not always women who are timid or have been victimized.

MJ - the groin is a great target, but you might find it interesting that not all men will react immediately to a groin shot - it can take 10 seconds or even more before a man might feel the full, debilitating effect of a really good groin shot. He can do you a lot of damage in that amount of time, then after he's done, he'll puke his guts up and you'll be history. I'd use it as a secondary fleshy target - perhaps the eyes or throat first, then the groin. Remember on that groin shot, BTW, not to kick the front - get up and under the, erm, parts to get a debilitating shot in.

Bet you guys are lovin' this, huh? :rolleyes:

[TigerWoman]

I don't see why women should train any different then men do. My wife and I both study capoeira and we are both at the same level, and I would never hold back on her, and she doesn't hold back either. In fact I personally know some women in capoeira who are more intimidating than some of the men... and the look better doing it. I'm not too familiar with most other martial arts, but in capoeira, we hold no distinction. You are a student. Gender does not matter.

I think the "difference" is the commitment to really doing what is necessary to learn self-defense. For some women, they won't even set foot into a class or a gym for that matter, some women will only do a "limited" women's self defense class/seminar. Some women sign up for martial arts, regular classes, realize it is too much, and quit. Some women, keep going and are the women, your wife is. Women usually have to go slow, as we all have said, a toe in, then a foot, and pretty soon you are immersed. TW

[mj-hi-yah]

I'd also like to say that it's not always women who are timid or have been victimized.

MJ - the groin is a great target, but you might find it interesting that not all men will react immediately to a groin shot - it can take 10 seconds or even more before a man might feel the full, debilitating effect of a really good groin shot. He can do you a lot of damage in that amount of time, then after he's done, he'll puke his guts up and you'll be history. I'd use it as a secondary fleshy target - perhaps the eyes or throat first, then the groin. Remember on that groin shot, BTW, not to kick the front - get up and under the, erm, parts to get a debilitating shot in.

Bet you guys are lovin' this, huh? :rolleyes:Ohh can't help it always love lookin' for the groin strike!!!! :idunno: Hee hee yes I know we've talked about this before...you had one of those groin ammunity guys in your school...huh so unfair!!! Yes, I like the eyes first then the groin and the part about the parts well.....the way you put things now OMG I'm really laughing....sorry all you nice nonconfrontational guys hope the thought alone doesn't cause you pain...

[shesulsa]

Hee hee yes I know we've talked about this before...you had one of those groin ammunity guys in your school...huh so unfair!!!
Oops sorry - didn't mean to :deadhorse.



Yes, I like the eyes first then the groin and the part about the parts well.....the way you put things now OMG I'm really laughing....sorry all you nice nonconfrontational guys hope the thought alone doesn't cause you pain...
I'm really sorry, fellas, if my talk of groins makes you wince. I'm thankful that MT has language restrictions or you'd be getting a much more strongly-worded dose of what I'm saying, exactly. I'm kinda frank that way. No ill feelings?:wavey:

[mj-hi-yah]

Oops sorry - didn't mean to :deadhorse.



I'm really sorry, fellas, if my talk of groins makes you wince. I'm thankful that MT has language restrictions or you'd be getting a much more strongly-worded dose of what I'm saying, exactly. I'm kinda frank that way. No ill feelings?:wavey:Hee hee hee no worries really! We can never talk too much about this target!:boing1:

[ppko]

Thanks, guys.

First of all, train women to carry their purses the way female cops to - the strap length should be such that the top of the bag is at the same level as the waistline. The strap should be over the shoulder on the same side as it is carried - meaning, she shouldn't stick her head through and carry the thing across her body. The strap can be used to strangle her with. Same thing with a back pack. She needs to carry a backpack using one shoulder strap only and letting the other one dangle and one hand on the strap, providing easy access should she need to use the backpack as a shield or weapon or remove it quickly to evade a grab. She can carry a large amount of loose change in the bottom of the purse/backpack and can slap someone with it hard - great to use as a weapon. Knocking someone upside the head with a heavy purse or backpack can be enough to put them out for the count. Encourage women with children to use a fanny pack instead.

Teach women with children to put their children in the car first before the groceries or clothes or whatever she's shopping for, and to roll a window down about an inch before locking the child in (unless it's winter). When they approach the car, look under the car, around the car - especially as they approach. Keys should be out and in the hand before the building is left. Priority one when they get in the car is to close and lock the car door immediately. Makeup, keys, radio, placing the purse in just the right spot, fiddling for something else, answering the cell phone can all wait until all she and all other parties are in and secure.

Vital points are important to know - eyes and throat are very good.

I advise anyone who asks me to study up on the laws governing weapons carriage and usage in their state and local areas before carrying anything at all - knife, gun, pepper spray, etcetera. Scissors count - so do knitting needles, boxcutter knives, steak knives, etcetera. No weapon should be carried unless she can handle it and handle what happens when she uses it. Also, weapons can be taken from and used against her - important fact to stress.

When it comes to going - erm - *gonads* out on a padded male target - not all women have the upper body conditioning to handle this right away. All kinds of things can from hitting it wrong - hands, feet, knees, rotator cuffs can all get damaged if not conditioned properly. They might not even have the mental or intestinal fortitude to do it. Introducing anyone to this kind of training prematurely can have the reverse effect. Especially if they've already been victimized. Here is a thread (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15706) on understanding where victimized women are coming from. If you cut a woman loose on a male target who has been cut loose on her, this could have the reverse effect - actually make her more timid. If she's a hurricane, and you have guys that have that sink-or-swim attitude towards women training, pair THEM up. Again, individuality breeds the necessary tactics.

The keys to good self-defense remain education, awareness and practice.

RegardsSome excellent points, you have really thought this out I am impressed. Another good point on when you are getting into your car if there is a van parked next to your car you should try to get in on the other side if possible so that you do not dissapear into the van

[hedgehogey]

Plus, I'd like to know what man is going to volunteer to be the "attacker" knowing the woman has been taught to go full force poking his eyes out with her fingernails and kicking him full force in the groin!
I would. Seriously, to prove my point, i'd do it.

Look, I am a man. I am in possesion of nuts. I have been hit in the nuts (obviously) many more times than any woman on this board will. I KNOW WHAT GETTING KNEED IN THE KNUTSACK FEELS LIKE.

Does it hurt? Of course it does. It hurts like an S.O.B.

Does it incapacitate? No.

Would I reccomend it over the classic greco and thai escapes for a woman who's been "bearhugged"? A very emphatic NO.

[Sarah]

Look, I am a man. I am in possesion of nuts. I have been hit in the nuts (obviously) many more times than any woman on this board will. I KNOW WHAT GETTING KNEED IN THE KNUTSACK FEELS LIKE.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

Maybe a grab and twist would be more affective??? LOL

[shesulsa]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

Maybe a grab and twist would be more affective??? LOL
Hee hee - we call this, "Monkey picks peach." Heel palm, grab, twist to break the cord and yank. It's the ladies' favorite strike, in general...dunno why.

[Sarah]

Hee hee - we call this, "Monkey picks peach." Heel palm, grab, twist to break the cord and yank. It's the ladies' favorite strike, in general...dunno why.
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_29_132.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)
I didn’t know there was actually a 'named' strike for that.

Maybe a knee to that area wont always work, but if you managed to hold on and squeezzzzzze, I’m sure that would bring tears to the eyes and make his voice a few octives higher.

[hedgehogey]

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_3_1v.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001)

Maybe a grab and twist would be more affective??? LOL
I DO THAT ONE EVERY NIGHT.

Anyway, why are you relying on a technique that doesn't work if your opponent's wearing pants? Jeans, for instance, render this completely unusable.

[shesulsa]

I DO THAT ONE EVERY NIGHT.
If I get your meaning, and I think I do, that's too much information.


Anyway, why are you relying on a technique that doesn't work if your opponent's wearing pants? Jeans, for instance, render this completely unusable.
Frankly, I agree - though I'm sure that a woman who is about to be raped might have access to unclothed appendages and take the opportune moment. Could also work if opponent is sporting martial arts pants and a bad attitude towards women. Or sweats or baggies or swim trunks. Or any other attire that gentlemen might feel the desire to wear while "going commando."

[KenpoTess]

MOD NOTE

Please Refrain from personal comments outside the context of the thread.

The Topic is 'What is the best way to teach women self defense' Not what is the best Techniques for women against Men.

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-

[kenpo tiger]

Hee hee - we call this, "Monkey picks peach." Heel palm, grab, twist to break the cord and yank. It's the ladies' favorite strike, in general...dunno why.
I'll have to mention this new tech in class tonight, and ask for volunteers to demonstrate :boing2: :o
After reading Tess' admonition to stay on topic (sorry - missed it first time around), I will add that if you have women who have enrolled in ma classes at your school after taking the self defense course, you can get into more advanced self defense through learning the techs (we learn this particular one first at yellow in Grasp of Death.) I doubt that the above, while intriguing, would make a good basic to teach non-ma students. The "skeeve" factor is, after all, present in most women. The thought of grabbing and pulling a stranger's, um, utilities - never mind gouging eyes - is unsettling to most women. We just aren't brought up to think that way, and getting past it is so important to keeping oneself safe. :asian: KT

[ppko]

Just for you women out there if you are going to strike a guy in the nuts go downward rather than upward it hurts a lot worse, but once again thanks for the feedback on this subject

[shesulsa]

I seriously would teach women to go for vital point targets that are available. Other techniques discussed here won't always work, and isn't that what we want to concentrate on when teaching self defense basics? Techniques that will most likely universally work?

[hedgehogey]

Once again I ask: How do you know these "vital points" work? (no anecdotes please, just hard evidence)

[shesulsa]

Hedgehogey - why don't you start another thread about the efficacy of techniques? Or post to one of the threads on alive training? We are talking about approaching women with self-defense instruction and I'd like to get back to that topic as the Queen of Pain so lovingly suggested.

[Martial Tucker]

I seriously would teach women to go for vital point targets that are available. Other techniques discussed here won't always work, and isn't that what we want to concentrate on when teaching self defense basics? Techniques that will most likely universally work?My school (besides having many female students) puts on women's self defense seminars a few saturdays each year. I think we charge about $20 for a full day curriculum that includes awareness training, using everyday items as weapons,
basic self-defense techniques, e.g simple joint locks, escapes, and vital targets/how to attack them.

As an assistant instructor at a few of these events, I have noticed that there always seem to be a few women in the group that, when shown a technique attacking vital points, e.g., an eye gouge, respond by saying "Oh, I don't think I can DO that to someone."

I bring this up, because to me there's no such thing as "I can't".
"I CAN'T" translates to "I WON'T". At this point, I tell them that if they are not willing to gouge a man's eyes. or whatever, then they are making a conscious decision that injuring the man would bother them more than enduring whatever he has in mind for them. I ask them if that's what they mean to say, and they say "no!".

Here's my point: The typical women is at a significant power disadvantage if/when attacked by a man. Certainly, if the woman has had decent martial arts or self defense training, that power disadvantage can be negated.
BUT, survival may require the woman to do something(s) to the man the she would normally consider to be unthinkable in terms of violence or vulgarity. IMHO, a lot of the women I have seen train don't think about this enough, as they put all of their mental effort into memorizing the techniques. What I am saying is that women also need to be mentally prepared IN ADVANCE to do WHATEVER it takes to survive, and make the decision before they leave the house that they will do this without hesitation. If they don't go through this thought process in advance, then if/when the time comes to actually defend themselves they will hesitate, which may cost them their lives.

When we practice in class, and I am working with a woman who seems hesitant, I tell her to stop, close her eyes, and imagine for a moment that she just caught me molesting her child. At that point, I usually get the living crap kicked out of me, and I am happy, because THAT'S the intensity level I want to see a woman have when defending herself. But it's a decision that MUST be thought about and made BEFORE the need arises.

[kenpo tiger]

My school (besides having many female students) puts on women's self defense seminars a few saturdays each year. I think we charge about $20 for a full day curriculum that includes awareness training, using everyday items as weapons,
basic self-defense techniques, e.g simple joint locks, escapes, and vital targets/how to attack them.

As an assistant instructor at a few of these events, I have noticed that there always seem to be a few women in the group that, when shown a technique attacking vital points, e.g., an eye gouge, respond by saying "Oh, I don't think I can DO that to someone."

I bring this up, because to me there's no such thing as "I can't".
"I CAN'T" translates to "I WON'T". At this point, I tell them that if they are not willing to gouge a man's eyes. or whatever, then they are making a conscious decision that injuring the man would bother them more than enduring whatever he has in mind for them. I ask them if that's what they mean to say, and they say "no!".

Here's my point: The typical women is at a significant power disadvantage if/when attacked by a man. Certainly, if the woman has had decent martial arts or self defense training, that power disadvantage can be negated.
BUT, survival may require the woman to do something(s) to the man the she would normally consider to be unthinkable in terms of violence or vulgarity. IMHO, a lot of the women I have seen train don't think about this enough, as they put all of their mental effort into memorizing the techniques. What I am saying is that women also need to be mentally prepared IN ADVANCE to do WHATEVER it takes to survive, and make the decision before they leave the house that they will do this without hesitation. If they don't go through this thought process in advance, then if/when the time comes to actually defend themselves they will hesitate, which may cost them their lives.

When we practice in class, and I am working with a woman who seems hesitant, I tell her to stop, close her eyes, and imagine for a moment that she just caught me molesting her child. At that point, I usually get the living crap kicked out of me, and I am happy, because THAT'S the intensity level I want to see a woman have when defending herself. But it's a decision that MUST be thought about and made BEFORE the need arises.
In red, that's the "skeeve" factor I was referring to. I don't know that it's to your benefit (and/or safety) to ask a woman to imagine that you've molested her child. That's a bit, well, again - you MUST know who you're dealing with before saying anything like that. You just don't know what irreparable harm has been done or can be done innocently in the name of trying to get a woman to respond more aggressively. I probably WOULD rip your eyes out if you said anything like that to me - not that I have personal experience, thank goodness - because of my little students - my little angels. Also, as a mother, that's one of the worst case scenarios (you can extrapolate as to the other.)

A virtual *pat on the back* to you for taking the time to help women be safe. KT

[mj-hi-yah]

When we practice in class, and I am working with a woman who seems hesitant, I tell her to stop, close her eyes, and imagine for a moment that she just caught me molesting her child. At that point, I usually get the living crap kicked out of me, and I am happy, because THAT'S the intensity level I want to see a woman have when defending herself. But it's a decision that MUST be thought about and made BEFORE the need arises.That is too funny! :) It's a great idea! I recently told one of my training partners that if he really wanted to see me react he should grab one of my kids...I believe that I would fight harder for others than than I would for myself!

[hedgehogey]

Hedgehogey - why don't you start another thread about the efficacy of techniques? Or post to one of the threads on alive training? We are talking about approaching women with self-defense instruction and I'd like to get back to that topic as the Queen of Pain so lovingly suggested.
Well, that's what I AM talking about. I believe the best way to teach women self defense is through alive training, and I believe "vital point" attacks are not reliable.

[mj-hi-yah]

Well, that's what I AM talking about. I believe the best way to teach women self defense is through alive training, and I believe "vital point" attacks are not reliable.The thing is how do we alive train a real jab or choke (as you suggest back thread a bit) that is forceful enough to actually take down or "out" one of our training partners? I don't think any of the guys at my school would be signing up for that gig! :asian:

[Flatlander]

:lurk:

I've read through the thread here, and I don't recall seeing whether you all were discussing a 'shorter term' type of training scenario, or long term, or what have you.

I think that for the most part, training a woman should not be that much different than training a man if you are taking the long term, way of life approach. Then you can take the wholistic approach to learning the art of movement in its entirety. However, if you are training her in more of a 'few weeks of classes basic woman's self defence course' type idea, then I think spending all of your time wrestling around on the mats is probably pretty futile. Not a lot to be really 'learned' there. Vital targets, ways to create openings to get outta dodge, joint locks, escaping grabs, headbutts, elbows, knees, pepper spray deployment, etc. are all great tools to teach. But, I will duck out now, and leave the rest of the discussion to the experienced martial artist *females* to carry on, as being a *male* martial artist who doesn't teach women's self defence, my frame of reference is inappropriate to the topic.

:wavey:

[shesulsa]

So do you want to have someone actually break your jaw? crush your windpipe? kill your knee? pierce your eyeball? rip the cheek right off your face? Is that hard evidence enough for you?

I think there are a few points you're missing here:

1. Inasfar as approach to women brand-new to self-defense you yourself state that a woman must work up slowly to fighting a man full-force (your post#7 on this thread).

2. Most arenas won't tolerate out-and-out violence in the interest of self-defense training - certainly not to start out with.

3. When women finally do resort to violence, it's your hiney. This is one of the most underestimated forces that even some women don't want to recognize in themselves - survival instinct.

4. Most women who come to martial arts long-term for self-defense primarily have already been attacked. Unless you understand their psyche, you will never have a woman in your class who had already been attacked. She will just quit as soon as you go for her. This is damaging beyond your comprehension.

5. The women who will come into your class and train alive, full-boar against men probably haven't been attacked and still won't reach their lethality.

To me, full boar is no holds barred - fight to the death if necessary.

Reality is that there will always be someone who is too strong in the throat to crush the windpipe, too fast to poke out his eye, too thick to break his knee, too rough to harm with a temple strike. Fortunately, one can usually see these people coming and that's where awareness comes in, as well as Plan B.

[shesulsa]

I think that for the most part, training a woman should not be that much different than training a man if you are taking the long term, way of life approach. Then you can take the wholistic approach to learning the art of movement in its entirety. However, if you are training her in more of a 'few weeks of classes basic woman's self defence course' type idea, then I think spending all of your time wrestling around on the mats is probably pretty futile. Not a lot to be really 'learned' there. Vital targets, ways to create openings to get outta dodge, joint locks, escaping grabs, headbutts, elbows, knees, pepper spray deployment, etc. are all great tools to teach.
I completely concur, Flatlander. I do still think sensitivity to certain individuals is called for.


But, I will duck out now, and leave the rest of the discussion to the experienced martial artist *females* to carry on, as being a *male* martial artist who doesn't teach women's self defence, my frame of reference is inappropriate to the topic.
Actually, what you have contributed is, I think, a good summation of the general concencus of this board, hedgehogey's opinion notwithstanding.

Thank you, as always, for your good sense.:asian:

[TigerWoman]

4. Most women who come to martial arts long-term for self-defense primarily have already been attacked. Unless you understand their psyche, you will never have a woman in your class who had already been attacked. She will just quit as soon as you go for her. This is damaging beyond your comprehension.



Shesulsa, really good points. Especially this one. In my self-defense classes though, most of the women had not been attacked. Advantage, me. However, when my instructor was present one time, he upped the training with a practice knife, and a glove on a wood pole. One woman refused, one was visibly upset and left - learned later she had been attacked before. She couldn't do it again, but remained a friend. She couldn't face reliving the feelings of helplessness and terror. You really have to gain these women's confidence in you as a teacher. In order to do that, they have to know they are SAFE and they will not be hurt from the training. At least in the first few weeks, maybe months of self defense and years of regular training. It takes a long time sometimes for a woman to trust their teacher and environment enough to hazard getting hurt. Its built slowly. TW

[Sarah]

Once again I ask: How do you know these "vital points" work? (no anecdotes please, just hard evidence)
I don’t think the point of the thread is about which tech work/don’t work, because in an attack the point is to teach woman to do SOMETHING, and that doesn’t mean just one hit to the groin, its all about making the attackers job difficult and therefore not worth there while.

[hedgehogey]

So do you want to have someone actually break your jaw? crush your windpipe? kill your knee? pierce your eyeball? rip the cheek right off your face? Is that hard evidence enough for you?
I wanna see SOMEONE doing it. Anyone. If it has to be me, so be it.



I think there are a few points you're missing here:

1. Inasfar as approach to women brand-new to self-defense you yourself state that a woman must work up slowly to fighting a man full-force (your post#7 on this thread).
On the contrary, I think it can be done within the first class (which is how things are done at my school). Obviously we don't toss them a pair of vale tudo gloves and tell them to face 260 pound, bald, "tiny" over there the moment they sign up for class , but from the first day they are working practical techniques against*real resistance* from men who are *really trying to throw, lock, pin, etc. them. If they don't do the technique vs a man who is really trying his damndest to beat her, it's not real, and thus not reliable.



2. Most arenas won't tolerate out-and-out violence in the interest of self-defense training - certainly not to start out with.
What do you mean by "arenas"?



3. When women finally do resort to violence, it's your hiney. This is one of the most underestimated forces that even some women don't want to recognize in themselves - survival instinct.
Instincts are great, but you don't access them by PRETENDING to hit people. You get primal aggresion from things like wrestling, boxing, etc.

Not from pretending to eyepoke a man with a trash can on his head.



4. Most women who come to martial arts long-term for self-defense primarily have already been attacked. Unless you understand their psyche, you will never have a woman in your class who had already been attacked. She will just quit as soon as you go for her. This is damaging beyond your comprehension.
Well then maybe she should invest in some THERAPY if resistance is enough to cause her to have a break down. When you go to a self defense class, you'd better expect to be put in situatons that are a lot like being attacked.



5. The women who will come into your class and train alive, full-boar against men probably haven't been attacked
My mother was attacked (she succesfully fought him off and got away). She rolls with the guys.


and still won't reach their lethality.
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. "Won't reach their lethality". Choking out a man who's trying to choke you back, how is this not "street lethal"?



To me, full boar is no holds barred - fight to the death if necessary.
Watch a lot of kung fu movies? A hand to hand fight is not nearly as deadly as you seem to think it is.

[Sarah]

I think you may be getting confused about Woman who want to train in MA and Woman who are 'beginning' to learn some self defence.

As a few people have already stated its as much mental and physical. It's not that easy for some ladies to harness that aggressive energy right off the bat.

You obviously have very strong opinions about this, you may be around a lot of strong Woman that are not afraid to get on the mat with guys, but not all ladies are like that, instructors need to be versatile to deal with all different types of people and sensitive to there needs when coming to learn Self Defence.

[Flatlander]

Well then maybe she should invest in some THERAPY if resistance is enough to cause her to have a break down. When you go to a self defense class, you'd better expect to be put in situatons that are a lot like being attacked..
With this statement, you have illustrated that this concept is way outside of your scope of reference. You are completely missing the point of the whole thread. Have you the ability to think about what you've read in this thread?





Watch a lot of kung fu movies? A hand to hand fight is not nearly as deadly as you seem to think it is.
If you believe this, then you've never learned REAL hand to hand COMBAT. Not only is it lethal, but it's gross. Get back in the ring, sporty.

[Sarah]

Well then maybe she should invest in some THERAPY if resistance is enough to cause her to have a break down. When you go to a self defense class, you'd better expect to be put in situatons that are a lot like being attacked.
Don’t be naive to think that doing some self defence training after being attached is not a kind of Therapy. Because that is exactly what it can for some woman.

[hedgehogey]

If you believe this, then you've never learned REAL hand to hand COMBAT. Not only is it lethal, but it's gross. Get back in the ring, sporty.
REAL mature there. I'd expect better from a moderator.

Lethal means having the ability to cause death. The VAST majority of fights do not cause death or any form of injury beyond a bloody nose or chipped teeth. This is a statistical fact, and one proven every time a fight gets caught on tape.

[Flatlander]

You're right. Fights don't. I don't think that the discussion referred to that type of fight, though.

Nonetheless, though a Mod, I may still have an opinion.

[shesulsa]

All right, I'm gonna make a last ditch effort here to arouse some sense of responsibility toward training women for self defense from a beginning standpoint in you, hedgehogey.

I want to know how you plan to train your daughter. You gonna go gonads out on her? How are you going to feel when she goes to an arena (generic term for work-out-studio - dojo, dojang, mat, what the f ever) and is attacked in this vein? Suppose she can't handle it. You gonna get her some therapy, are ya? So every woman who's been attacked and comes to learn to take care of herself who has some PTSD about the whole thing needs to have therapy to get over it and learn how to handle exactly what was done to her?

How about your wife? What if she is raped and can't handle even being touched by you for a very long time afterward. Are you going to tell her that she'd better learn how to handle it or get therapy?

Come on. Your rantings demonstrate an extreme lack of empathy, understanding and indicates judgementalism towards one of the most common victim sectors in society in general.

You talk of street fights not being lethal - where the hell do you see any discussion of street fights here? We are talking assault prevention scenarios - not fight clubs, gang bangs and in case you are really that ignorant, more and more rape and female assault victims are getting killed these days. I'd call that "a fight to the death if necessary."

We, mostly women, are discussing how one may or may not teach self-defense to other women. Now call me crazy, but I value input from the horse's mouth. You can either take it for what it's worth and move on, learn from it, or just damage the psyche of women who come to learn. Your choice, man.

And please don't insult the moderators - they all do an excellent job for little return and don't need it.

Peace

[hedgehogey]

Look, i'm sorry, but I don't think it's fair to expect martial arts instructors to be therapists. They are no more qualified for that than anyone else, possibly less qualified.

Once again, don't assume I mean balls-to-the-wall vale tudo sparring from the minute you walk in the door for your first lesson. But what I AM talking about is functional, alive training, that is with REAL resistance from day one. Training with no predetermined winner, in a competitive, athletic setting.

If a woman can't handle that, she probably needs to come to terms with her experience more. That's nothing to be ashamed of. It's simply that, until she can handle resistance and hard contact with the guys (taking into account her physical attributes) then she can't experience "alive" training, which is by far the most efficient method of training for self defense or fighting.

[ppko]

Look, i'm sorry, but I don't think it's fair to expect martial arts instructors to be therapists. They are no more qualified for that than anyone else, possibly less qualified.

Once again, don't assume I mean balls-to-the-wall vale tudo sparring from the minute you walk in the door for your first lesson. But what I AM talking about is functional, alive training, that is with REAL resistance from day one. Training with no predetermined winner, in a competitive, athletic setting.

If a woman can't handle that, she probably needs to come to terms with her experience more. That's nothing to be ashamed of. It's simply that, until she can handle resistance and hard contact with the guys (taking into account her physical attributes) then she can't experience "alive" training, which is by far the most efficient method of training for self defense or fighting.
The problem is the competitive part, what you train is sport and we are talking street. Can you train aliveness yes, but you work up to (no I am not talking sparring) the biggest part of Martial Arts training is training the mind not the body. Should teachers act as therapists, yes in a way we should, I don't know about anyone else here but if a student has a problem than I feel obligated to do whatever is in my power to help them. I have seen a lot of good post and some not so great posts here on this thread,lets get back to the discussion on hand. HH I want to here other opinions than yours stop arguing with the women and men on this thread and let us have some more good discussions

[shesulsa]

PPKO, we clearly have a couple of different venues here; short-term self-defense training (seminars), intermittent one-on-one self-defense training (private consultation) and long-term self-defense training.

I think all three require a different approach and it all depends on your student. If you are going to do a seminar, you might consider adding a section where the enrollee can write specific questions about specific scenarios that you can address at the seminar. You can also request they contact you via e-mail or phone regarding confidential issues with an assurance that this information remains confidential. That can give you a heads-up to sensitive issues in advance.

You can't always pick and choose healthy-minded women for your class and we both agree on that. We also agree that a good instructor will learn how to deal with victims who come to learn. My teacher has done a wonderful job with me and, though I still have some challenges, I don't quite feel like a victim all the time anymore.

Good luck.

[Brother John]

Hope this helps someone:
Your Brother
John

http://inosanto.com/article_info.php?articles_id=35

[hedgehogey]

The problem is the competitive part, what you train is sport and we are talking street.
You still miss the point. I'll put this in simple terms even a "martial artist" can understand: You must train competitively in order to prepare for teh str33t. This applies equally to women.



Can you train aliveness yes, but you work up to (no I am not talking sparring)
Didn't I already say you can train alive from your first lesson?



the biggest part of Martial Arts training is training the mind not the body.
You sure don't develop mental toughness by hitting air or a cooperative partner.



Should teachers act as therapists, yes in a way we should, I don't know about anyone else here but if a student has a problem than I feel obligated to do whatever is in my power to help them.
That's great, but one fact remains: None of us are psychological proffesionals. If this is really such a problem, bring in a therapist as an advisor.



I have seen a lot of good post and some not so great posts here on this thread,lets get back to the discussion on hand. HH I want to here other opinions than yours stop arguing with the women and men on this thread and let us have some more good discussions
So "good discussion" means "no disagreements"?

[shesulsa]

Thanks, Brother John. I do actually believe that women must eventually train for toughness and aliveness as Ms. Rathborne suggests. I was trying to give more detailed hints about approaching them to even get to this point.

Good article and it's interesting that the first thing she types is awareness and avoidance. She also writes to be wary of weapons carriage - good advice.

I think everyone should read this article.

[kenpo tiger]

With this statement, you have illustrated that this concept is way outside of your scope of reference. You are completely missing the point of the whole thread. Have you the ability to think about what you've read in this thread?

If you believe this, then you've never learned REAL hand to hand COMBAT. Not only is it lethal, but it's gross. Get back in the ring, sporty.
Thank you Flatlander!

Hedgey, I'm surprised at you. Unless I'm not remembering correctly, your mom trains with you. I would think you would have a little more sensitivity because of that. I know my sons are a little squeamish about my fighting with men. All they want to do is protect me - :) KT

[kenpo tiger]

All right, I'm gonna make a last ditch effort here to arouse some sense of responsibility toward training women for self defense from a beginning standpoint in you, hedgehogey.

I want to know how you plan to train your daughter. You gonna go gonads out on her? How are you going to feel when she goes to an arena (generic term for work-out-studio - dojo, dojang, mat, what the f ever) and is attacked in this vein? Suppose she can't handle it. You gonna get her some therapy, are ya? So every woman who's been attacked and comes to learn to take care of herself who has some PTSD about the whole thing needs to have therapy to get over it and learn how to handle exactly what was done to her?

How about your wife? What if she is raped and can't handle even being touched by you for a very long time afterward. Are you going to tell her that she'd better learn how to handle it or get therapy?

Come on. Your rantings demonstrate an extreme lack of empathy, understanding and indicates judgementalism towards one of the most common victim sectors in society in general.

You talk of street fights not being lethal - where the hell do you see any discussion of street fights here? We are talking assault prevention scenarios - not fight clubs, gang bangs and in case you are really that ignorant, more and more rape and female assault victims are getting killed these days. I'd call that "a fight to the death if necessary."

We, mostly women, are discussing how one may or may not teach self-defense to other women. Now call me crazy, but I value input from the horse's mouth. You can either take it for what it's worth and move on, learn from it, or just damage the psyche of women who come to learn. Your choice, man.

And please don't insult the moderators - they all do an excellent job for little return and don't need it.

Peace
As always, Shesulsa, I'm with you!:asian: Kt

[shesulsa]

Perhaps what HH is trying to do is emphasize the need to get over it, train, grow and start training alive. Perhaps we can have more confidence in ourselves upon entering the dojang. I still believe that understanding the psyche of women who approach self-defense and martial arts is key to teaching them and still the mark of a responsible teacher. That can be done without too much coddling, I'm sure.

I remain concerned for the women who won't train because of the intimidation factor or the unavailability for less-than-fortunate women.

I've seen a couple of comments on the shoulder-strap thing and I want to give credit where credit is due - I didn't know this either until training with my teacher - never even thought about it until he approached that topic at a seminar. Thank you again, Sir.

As always, Shesulsa, I'm with you!:asian: Kt Awww, shucks. Thanks you, KT! :asian: You know I always say that flattery will get you absolutely everywhere.

[kenpo tiger]

Perhaps what HH is trying to do is emphasize the need to get over it, train, grow and start training alive. Perhaps we can have more confidence in ourselves upon entering the dojang. I still believe that understanding the psyche of women who approach self-defense and martial arts is key to teaching them and still the mark of a responsible teacher. That can be done without too much coddling, I'm sure.

I remain concerned for the women who won't train because of the intimidation factor or the unavailability for less-than-fortunate women.

I've seen a couple of comments on the shoulder-strap thing and I want to give credit where credit is due - I didn't know this either until training with my teacher - never even thought about it until he approached that topic at a seminar. Thank you again, Sir.
Awww, shucks. Thanks you, KT! :asian: You know I always say that flattery will get you absolutely everywhere.
It's only flattery when it isn't the truth. You make good sense, IMHO. KT

[ppko]

Perhaps what HH is trying to do is emphasize the need to get over it, train, grow and start training alive. Perhaps we can have more confidence in ourselves upon entering the dojang. I still believe that understanding the psyche of women who approach self-defense and martial arts is key to teaching them and still the mark of a responsible teacher. That can be done without too much coddling, I'm sure.

I remain concerned for the women who won't train because of the intimidation factor or the unavailability for less-than-fortunate women.

I've seen a couple of comments on the shoulder-strap thing and I want to give credit where credit is due - I didn't know this either until training with my teacher - never even thought about it until he approached that topic at a seminar. Thank you again, Sir.
Awww, shucks. Thanks you, KT! :asian: You know I always say that flattery will get you absolutely everywhere.I would like to trully thank you for all the help in this discussion, any other ideas would be apreciated

[Sarah]

I think an aspect to cover is the importance of PREVENTION, a lot of people may think it is common sense, but common sense isn’t very common!

Men are less likely to attack woman in groups. A confident looking woman, ie walking with head held high, thay are looking for woman that are not looking around, or rummaging there her purse etc (may not see them coming).

Something I read in another Thread 'through a rapist's eyes' is if you are alone and a man is following you turn and look at him, or ask him the time! He is less likely to attack you if you have seen him and talked to him.

Talk about the possibly of carrying a personal alarm.

I learnt in a self defence course at school to do anything, i.e. fake a seizure, bite, scratch, and most importantly SCREAM.

[ppko]

I think an aspect to cover is the importance of PREVENTION, a lot of people may think it is common sense, but common sense isn’t very common!

Men are less likely to attack woman in groups. A confident looking woman, ie walking with head held high, thay are looking for woman that are not looking around, or rummaging there her purse etc (may not see them coming).

Something I read in another Thread 'through a rapist's eyes' is if you are alone and a man is following you turn and look at him, or ask him the time! He is less likely to attack you if you have seen him and talked to him.

Talk about the possibly of carrying a personal alarm.

I learnt in a self defence course at school to do anything, i.e. fake a seizure, bite, scratch, and most importantly SCREAM.

A great post we touched on this a little bit but I believe it is something that many people look over in there martial arts training

[Sarah]

You may be able to pick up some pointers of this site:


http://www.mssd.com.au/womenGUIDE.htm

[mj-hi-yah]

One of the things that I think helps a woman to get over it (it being the fear of hitting/ being swung at or getting hit) is pad work. There is something extremely empowering about doing kicks and hand strikes into pads. Also when you hold the pad for your partner you feel and can appreciate the power they generate without really getting hurt, as you are mostly protected...except once in awhile a great kicker can rattle your brains :)! I love to watch the transition in observing women timidly approaching this task at first, and then amazingly begin to lose their inhibitions and sometimes release their frustrations on the pad! I one time jokingly said to the ladies pretend the pad is your ex-husband and wow there must have been a few divorcees there, because did they ever come out swinging after that!

I love :inlove: to see girl power! :cool:

MJ :)

[shesulsa]

Most definitely! Prevention = Awareness, IMHO. Be aware of who is around you - who is following you. As you walk, turn your head to the side and use peripheral vision to see behind you (not the furtive glance over the shoulder, mind you)...gosh the list goes on.

Get an idea of multiple exits wherever you go. Don't be so intimidated of using the elevator that you take the stairs...too secluded. Walk in pairs - at least.

Oh - here's a pet peeve / prevention tip of mine - don't jog, run, bike, drive or walk with headphones on!! I see that and I just shake my head. You can't hear what's going on around you. Forfeiting your listening pleasure can save your life.

I love to hear people ask 'what do you do if you're walking home late at night alone and you come across three guys who...' - don't walk home late at night alone and don't let your teenage daughter do it, either.

Walk the main drags instead of cutting behind car washes and through unfamiliar neighborhoods.

Walk with confidence and assurance.

[Sarah]

One of the things that I think helps a woman to get over it (it being the fear of hitting/ being swung at or getting hit) is pad work. There is something extremely empowering about doing kicks and hand strikes into pads. Also when you hold the pad for your partner you feel and can appreciate the power they generate without really getting hurt, as you are mostly protected...except once in awhile a great kicker can rattle your brains :)! I love to watch the transition in observing women timidly approaching this task at first, and then amazingly begin to lose their inhibitions and sometimes release their frustrations on the pad! I one time jokingly said to the ladies pretend the pad is your ex-husband and wow there must have been a few divorcees there, because did they ever come out swinging after that!

I love :inlove: to see girl power! :cool:

MJ :)
I think that is a great point. Before MA or Self Defence training most Woman have never hit/kicked anything at full force, so it can defiantly be empowering to learn just how hard you can hit/kick. Can start walking a bit taller once you realise what sort of damage you could do if you needed to.

[shesulsa]

You may be able to pick up some pointers of this site:


http://www.mssd.com.au/womenGUIDE.htm
Good tips.

Here's another one - abandon wearing shoes you can't run in or balance well in. Always be prepared to run, climb, crawl, etc.

[shesulsa]

One of the things that I think helps a woman to get over it (it being the fear of hitting/ being swung at or getting hit) is pad work. There is something extremely empowering about doing kicks and hand strikes into pads. Also when you hold the pad for your partner you feel and can appreciate the power they generate without really getting hurt, as you are mostly protected...except once in awhile a great kicker can rattle your brains :)! I love to watch the transition in observing women timidly approaching this task at first, and then amazingly begin to lose their inhibitions and sometimes release their frustrations on the pad! I one time jokingly said to the ladies pretend the pad is your ex-husband and wow there must have been a few divorcees there, because did they ever come out swinging after that!

I love :inlove: to see girl power! :cool:

MJ :)
Oh, go tell it on the mountain, girl! MJ, you're awesome! I'll bet you get hit harder than most guys, Ma'am!

[hedgehogey]

One of the things that I think helps a woman to get over it (it being the fear of hitting/ being swung at or getting hit) is pad work. There is something extremely empowering about doing kicks and hand strikes into pads. Also when you hold the pad for your partner you feel and can appreciate the power they generate without really getting hurt, as you are mostly protected...except once in awhile a great kicker can rattle your brains :)! I love to watch the transition in observing women timidly approaching this task at first, and then amazingly begin to lose their inhibitions and sometimes release their frustrations on the pad! I one time jokingly said to the ladies pretend the pad is your ex-husband and wow there must have been a few divorcees there, because did they ever come out swinging after that!

I love :inlove: to see girl power! :cool:

MJ :)
For the most part, I agree. Thai pads are ideal for that purpose, and they help to get the student warmed up for sparring. But for maximum efficiency, you want a coach who can feed back punches and kicks.

Again, dead vs alive padwork is the key difference.

[mj-hi-yah]

Oh, go tell it on the mountain, girl! MJ, you're awesome! I'll bet you get hit harder than most guys, Ma'am! *blushing smiley* thanks Shesulsa! I must say I really like the foot apparel idea, I remember hearing my instructor caution women in his self defense seminars to be aware of this and not to go shopping alone at night carrying lots of bags in high heels. The headphones is a great one too...

[mj-hi-yah]

For the most part, I agree. Thai pads are ideal for that purpose, and they help to get the student warmed up for sparring. But for maximum efficiency, you want a coach who can feed back punches and kicks.

Again, dead vs alive padwork is the key difference.Honestly if I was asked to spar some guy on my first day out or even during the first year of my training I'm not sure if I would have continued. There were just too many social and emotional aspects to training in Martial Arts for me to adjust to without throwing sparring into the mix. Being aggressive and accepting aggression and allowing people into my personal space, especially guys, was very very awkward and even now years later it sometimes still is. Putting on all of the equipment alone was odd and uncomfortable. I still don't love the mouth guard and groin protector and all the other stuff. I really hate what the helmet does to my hair! You have to realize it is all very unfeminine, as are the skanky bruises you get as a result of training hard. Some women will gladly embrace this from the first minute they walk through the door of your dojo and I say give them what they are ready for. Some women may feel as I did/do and if you push them too hard or too soon you run the risk of losing them forever. You must build trust in your students (male or female) especially as Shesulsa has pointed out the ones who have been attacked, and when they are ready, whatever time it takes, they will accept their training without question. ppko originally wanted to know what would attract women to his school, and I will make the assumption that he is also interested in their returning. This is the right way to do it. So Hedgehogey I don't totally disagree with you - a reasonable amount of reality is most important. Train for reality, however do so when they are prepared to handle it so they will want to practice it as a part of their lifestyle.

MJ :asian:

[hedgehogey]

But that's not even sparring! It's standard boxing and muay thai padwork.

[mj-hi-yah]

But that's not even sparring! It's standard boxing and muay thai padwork.I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but I will say and I've said this before on another thread, to me the most realistic training for women is "No Mind" where you are continually attacked by people and you must react without thought. However to introduce this to some women before the above is achieved is premature and in my opinion inappropriate for beginners. This to me is the best preparation for women in self defense, as close to reality as you can get minus the actual eye rakes etc., but this is achieved best when all the above circumstances are realized and self defense techniques are practiced to the point of being reflexive. When a woman has learned to give and receive aggression and is comfortable with close contact. Yes, when all of this is taken into consideration, then this type of training is excellent. For some women it will take nurturing to reach this point of acceptance in training, and to ignore this fact is in my opinion counter to keeping some women interested in the very training that is intended to empower them to defend themselves. :asian:

[Lisa]

I think the best way to teach a woman self defense and to keep them training is to have good role models for them to follow in your school.

I have been reading the posts of mj-hi-yah, sarah and shesulsa and others. They are inspiring. As much as you need a good instructor, a school needs good role models. Women who are self assured and strong. Ones that can share their stories with other women and give them the moral support they need to start training and stay training.

[mj-hi-yah]

I think the best way to teach a woman self defense and to keep them training is to have good role models for them to follow in your school.

I have been reading the posts of mj-hi-yah, sarah and shesulsa and others. They are inspiring. As much as you need a good instructor, a school needs good role models. Women who are self assured and strong. Ones that can share their stories with other women and give them the moral support they need to start training and stay training.Thank you Nalia! :) You make a great point. Women are in my opinion social creatures and having a network is very important. I really enjoy working with and learning alongside the women in my school and being a part of this network of powerful women is also a great learning experience. I enjoy reading all of the posts too and seeing the different perspectives. I've learned a lot from all of the women here as well! Having a sense of belonging can help to maintain interest in training.:asian:

[loki09789]

But that's not even sparring! It's standard boxing and muay thai padwork.
Sparring is not fight training, it is sparring. It is sort of a laboratory to experience and experiment with things that will come up in a real 'fight' but if it is over emphasized, it can actually detract from 'fighting sense'.

"Fight training", though I prefer self defense, should be preparation/rehearsal for a 3-30 second engagement that applies realistic applications as close to realistically as possible (groin shots, eye gouges, throat strikes, vital area attacks designed to create disfunction) and then get the hell out of there. Progessively increases in intensity in simulation/scenario and drills that allow students to move like they want to fight will mean that they will fight like they should for self defense. Even to the point of practicing the escape/run portion. You would not believe how many times I have seen, in scenario training, students STOP and stare at the Bad Guy once he/she has been dispatched. If they do it there, they will do it in realty. If it is a skill you want students to have, you have to address it and teach it in some capacity. From body language, awareness, tactical decision making...all the way to reporting to the police and dealing with the courts. If you aren't versed on a topic, get versed on it or bring in a topic expert. I don't like it when I hear folks 'assume' that a part of self defense training is 'common sense' or 'not needed' for x or y type of students. EVERYONE can use a refresher/review. Hell, it can be a chance to let class veterans mentor/teach newer students if they already know the topic well.

I don't know what kind of women's self defense course is being discussed. Is it a limited time course like a 10 week program or is it a continous class thematically focused on self defense?

Train full bore? I would say KISS keep it simple but as 'intense' as the students seem to respond to with positive reaction. Read the students to let you know when the breaking point is near.

One thing about 'self defense' technique training that I like to emphasis - regardless of 'women's' or 'general' classes is CONTINUOUS movement. Teach them to keep moving and don't quite. If they are exhausted, encourage them to keep moving anyway - just go at a pace/intensity that can be sustained. If they 'make a mistake' tell them to keep going because 'perfection' in self defense application won't mean a hoot relative to determination and follow through - not to mention it is a 'teachable moment' to emphasis being adaptive and going with the flow. Too many times I see people stop and abuse themselves because they got a technique wrong. KEEP MOVING. FOCUS ON THE GOAL instead of focusing on 'perfection.' Technical proficiency will be developed because of multiple repetitions and correction. If you train your brain and body to stop in the middle you will fight/defend yourself that way as well. Don't let that happen.

Teaching students, women or men,to cheer each other on and celebrate good efforts/accomplishments and being able to laugh off screw ups goes a long way to developing 'espirit de corps' which creates a meaningful support network that seems to be extremely significant to all women or predominantly women training groups.

[mj-hi-yah]

Sparring is not fight training, it is sparring. It is sort of a laboratory to experience and experiment with things that will come up in a real 'fight' but if it is over emphasized, it can actually detract from 'fighting sense'..................Great post! I totally agree about the sparring (although among many other things it helps prepare for hard contact) especially for women, because a man may be more likely to attempt to grab/tackle a woman for submission rather than square off with her.

I agree that the run portion is important. Our school is small so when we do self defense classes we run as far as we can but usually hit a wall pretty quickly! Ouch!:uhyeah:

MJ :asian:

[loki09789]

Great post! I totally agree about the sparring (although among many other things it helps prepare for hard contact) especially for women, because a man may be more likely to attempt to grab/tackle a woman for submission rather than square off with her.

I agree that the run portion is important. Our school is small so when we do self defense classes we run as far as we can but usually hit a wall pretty quickly! Ouch!:uhyeah:

MJ :asian:
Yup about the benefit of hard contact, but honestly that can happen if you set up scenario stuff that allows the bad guy to hit hard within the context of the scenarios (using sparring/protective gear within the training is one way) can give students the same benefit. I sparr because I like it and it is one of those things that I did as part of my past training. I use it like a lab where I get to try out different things and push my 'gut check' levels from day to day. Mentally I go into sparring situations with the mentallity that I have to 'win' the first 3-30 seconds of it, after that it is just playing/experience/experiment.

If I 'lose' the initial contact then I have to exercise the intestinal fortitude to keep going until I do 'win' a decisive exchange to reinforce the psychological lesson of follow through and the 'keep going/don't quite' mentallity.

It has it's place, but it should not be the core of self defense training.

It should be the core of competitive training though.

When resources or time were limited, I have even had students do 'chalk talks' when they had to tell me what steps they would take in a real situation when the limitations have been reached. This kind of "mental rehearsal" or "mental scripting" is a close substitute for physical application and better than not doing it at all.

[ppko]

I think the best way to teach a woman self defense and to keep them training is to have good role models for them to follow in your school.

I have been reading the posts of mj-hi-yah, sarah and shesulsa and others. They are inspiring. As much as you need a good instructor, a school needs good role models. Women who are self assured and strong. Ones that can share their stories with other women and give them the moral support they need to start training and stay training.
Good role models are good for anyone to be around. Good post

[mj-hi-yah]

Yup about the benefit of hard contact, but honestly that can happen if you set up scenario stuff that allows the bad guy to hit hard within the context of the scenarios (using sparring/protective gear within the training is one way) can give students the same benefit.That's interesting really, I think if you can get women to accept the equipment and all the other emotional things are in place, this might help take away some of the fear of getting hurt in training strictly for self defense. In our school it's either been a one night seminar or regular training in Martial Arts. My instructor tried an ongoing self defense class but there was not enough interest at the time. I think if you were to set up a class that was strictly self defense and had a little more time this could be great. Have you ever conducted women's self defense classes this way?


I sparr because I like it and it is one of those things that I did as part of my past training. I use it like a lab where I get to try out different things and push my 'gut check' levels from day to day. Mentally I go into sparring situations with the mentallity that I have to 'win' the first 3-30 seconds of it, after that it is just playing/experience/experiment. I like your idea for the first 3-30 seconds of the fight. I think once contact is made a real fight would be over pretty quickly. Would you say that's about how long a real confrontation would last? Do you have someone timing it so you can judge how you did each round?


If I 'lose' the initial contact then I have to exercise the intestinal fortitude to keep going until I do 'win' a decisive exchange to reinforce the psychological lesson of follow through and the 'keep going/don't quite' mentallity.I think sparring is also great for developing stamina and this mentality gives you a purpose to continue.


When resources or time were limited, I have even had students do 'chalk talks' when they had to tell me what steps they would take in a real situation when the limitations have been reached. This kind of "mental rehearsal" or "mental scripting" is a close substitute for physical application and better than not doing it at all. I like this too it exercises the mental portion as well and reinforces what has been learned.

MJ :asian:

[loki09789]

I think if you were to set up a class that was strictly self defense and had a little more time this could be great. Have you ever conducted women's self defense classes this way?

I like your idea for the first 3-30 seconds of the fight. I think once contact is made a real fight would be over pretty quickly. Would you say that's about how long a real confrontation would last? Do you have someone timing it so you can judge how you did each round?

MJ :asian:
Before and in my new/current program, it is focused on self defense so you could say that it is a continuous 'self defense focused martial arts' class.

We use traditional and 'functional' exercises to develop conditioning/coordination/athletic ability, typically traditional or martial arts training to work on techinical skill along with partner drills/give and take/skill specific stimulus and response training to engrain 'immediate action' type responses, and use some of the stuff I have put forth as 'self defense' drills and scenario stuff to develop tactical/mental skills.

I essentially do the same thing that my instructor did when I was studying under him in his college PE self defense course and then later assisting with instruction. Of course I have done my own research and used things that I have found to be very useful from my military days, MP service and teacher educational training to build on my instructors training but at it's core it is philosophically and functionally the same concepts and framework.

We had a pretty good number of women/girl students but I have only done a 'women's only' even a few times and found that it was pretty productive. They walked away with some ideas on how to take charge and some specific examples of techniques and tactics that they could use. If they don't practice regularly though, it will not be nearly as effective as if they do, so though it was a good event and they got something from it, it had a limited impact IMO unless they find a program to keep those skills sharp and freshly trained.

[mj-hi-yah]

We had a pretty good number of women/girl students but I have only done a 'women's only' even a few times and found that it was pretty productive. They walked away with some ideas on how to take charge and some specific examples of techniques and tactics that they could use. If they don't practice regularly though, it will not be nearly as effective as if they do, so though it was a good event and they got something from it, it had a limited impact IMO unless they find a program to keep those skills sharp and freshly trained.Paul your approach all around is interesting thanks for sharing! As far as women's self defense I agree it's really best to train more consistently or as part of your lifestyle, but realistically it just isn't for some people and so again anything is better than nothing...:)

[Brother John]

We use traditional and 'functional' exercises to develop conditioning/coordination/athletic ability, typically traditional or martial arts training to work on techinical skill along with partner drills/give and take/skill specific stimulus and response training to engrain 'immediate action' type responses, and use some of the stuff I have put forth as 'self defense' drills and scenario stuff to develop tactical/mental skills.

Paul-
I guess I'm not understanding the difference you are making between "functional" and "traditional"...
Please help me understand.
It sounds like the traditional is something other than functional, which begs the question...why do it then?
thanks

Your Brother
John

[kenpo tiger]

Part of the problem with our instructor's self defense programs is that he doesn't advertise/market them at all, much less properly. If he were to do so, he'd have a much better response and, consequently, an on-going program.

Getting women used to wearing sparring gear isn't the issue, I'm afraid. It's more about the concept of fighting back, which isn't a 'female' thing to do in most cases. While wearing protective gear during a classroom session is imperative for beginners (especially if they're working with one another), it doesn't work for 'alive' training. You won't be wearing it in the street. Granted, in order for a woman to get used to being hit, she needs to wear the equipment. However, it's being prepped mentally which is paramount. Learning to use your voice is also important -- as has been discussed upthread. It comes down to reconditioning responses in a threatening situation.

I've always loved sparring, and I know I'm not alone. I personally find it empowering - and the hair thing isn't an issue for me. I know there are women who are overly concerned with their personal appearance at all times, but if you're going to be serious about doing martial arts, you have to realize that sweat is part of it, along with bad hair. I don't think the guys in the dojo are looking at a woman in any way other than a training partner. At least not the guys in OUR dojo. And I don't see them in any other way, either. (Sorry for the digression, but it does impact on self defense training!) KT

[mj-hi-yah]

Part of the problem with our instructor's self defense programs is that he doesn't advertise/market them at all, much less properly. If he were to do so, he'd have a much better response and, consequently, an on-going program.I'm sure that's true but not my reason for mentioning it. I was really just trying to convey what my experiences were with self defense classes...:)


I've always loved sparring, and I know I'm not alone. I personally find it empowering - and the hair thing isn't an issue for me. I know there are women who are overly concerned with their personal appearance at all times, but if you're going to be serious about doing martial arts, you have to realize that sweat is part of it, along with bad hair. I don't think the guys in the dojo are looking at a woman in any way other than a training partner. At least not the guys in OUR dojo. And I don't see them in any other way, either. (Sorry for the digression, but it does impact on self defense training!) KTYeah, you are not alone I love sparring too!:boxing: and think it definitely has a place in a complete program, but I didn't always and keeping in touch with my beginner's mentality is extremely important in my eyes. For women who train seriously I agree that these things were obviously never an issue or have been overcome or at least have become an accepted part of training. It's the reason I've personally come to keep my nails short and don't go to the dojo in makeup. I go to train. One of the questions of this thread was about how to attract women to the dojo to train in self defense. Issues of personal appearance are a real part of that for many women. LOL :viking3: as far as my bad hair goes I don't like helmet hair when I'm alone, it's got nothing to do with who is or isn't looking. It's just something to be sensitive to when considering how to introduce things to women is all. I think sparring equipment is important to note along with everything else we've been discussing here related to training and keeping woman interested in their training. I don't see it as being more important than understanding that a woman needs to be comfortable with hard contact or needing a voice. It's just something else to consider. If you are going to teach women I don't think you should assume things either way just be aware of the different feelings on it all. Like I expressed earlier give them what they are ready for...MJ :asian:

[kenpo tiger]

Which is, was, and continues to be my point. What's appropriate for some isn't for others.

[mj-hi-yah]

Which is, was, and continues to be my point. What's appropriate for some isn't for others.A fine point that is :asian: :)

[shesulsa]

Which is, was, and continues to be my point. What's appropriate for some isn't for others.
...which brings us full circle on the discussion of the need for individuality in teaching, no?

[loki09789]

Paul-
I guess I'm not understanding the difference you are making between "functional" and "traditional"...
Please help me understand.
It sounds like the traditional is something other than functional, which begs the question...why do it then?
thanks

Your Brother
JohnFrom my conditioning/fitness training I apply "functional" exercises that are designed to improve joint stability, muscle fitness and endurance by using activities/exercises that are based on applied, common or 'functional' motions.

For example, a dead lifting motion where you lower into the starting postion, grab the medicine ball between your legs and stand up with the medicine ball in your hands and then lower back down and set it down again for a set number of repetitions. Another example are what are usually called 'wood chopper' exercises where you stand in a neutral stance and rotate the torso while holding a wt./medicine ball simulating the 'chopping motion' that might be used to cut down a tree. These type of exercises are for developing 'go muscles' that can be recruited for power, agility and speed in the long run of regular training. Most of these exercises could also fight into the category of 'general conditioning exercises that can be translated to any number of performance arenas.

From my martial arts training I apply the "traditional" exercises like horse stance drills, Foot work patterns, striking patterns, grappling form sets and such. THey come from martial arts, but within fitness/performance training lexicon they would be considered sport specific exercises because you are using the actual motions that are meant to be applied to develop/enhance the skill, strength, agility, endurance or power of the individual student to improve overall performance.

Generally speaking, the simplest explanation for the development of 'functional training' is based on the fundamental idea to enhance a persons ability to lift things off the ground, climb things or get themselves up off the ground. The exercises can look funky relative to conventional 'gym rat' training on occasion, but the goal is different.

I only used the terms as a way of distinguishing the sources/references that I am taking these ideas from in order to develop student ability and performance.

[kenpo tiger]

...which brings us full circle on the discussion of the need for individuality in teaching, no?
Yes, that's what I've been saying -- apparently some people don't agree. KT

[kenpo tiger]

Shesulsa,

Further to your comment about individuality in training women for self defense: I have been doing self-defense and awareness classes since being certified to do same about 6 years ago. During that time, the classes have varied, depending upon the specific topic to be covered. Some of them had two components: a 'classroom'-type setting, where I essentially spoke about statistics and not becoming one (about a half hour each time), followed by a 'hands-on' session, between 30 and 45 minutes in duration, where different hypothetical situations are given and defenses taught. In-depth classes were then offered for a three or four week period subsequent to that, taught by the head instructor with two or three of the certified female instructors present and assisting. That was very successful the few times it was conducted as a mother/daughter class for the school's students. The other is the way my current instructor does it, which is a class one afternoon or evening during the week offering one-time, easy to learn and utilize techniques for self defense. (At no time does sparring enter into these classes, as these are not martial arts students, just ladies trying to get a grip on what they could and should do if attacked.) The 'classroom' part, with the statistics, is minimal - maybe 15 minutes - and done by our head instructor.

Which is more efficient? Who knows? I think it all depends upon the sense of urgency in each woman taking the class, and what she expects to gain from it. The same way that you have women taking aerobics classes called kick boxing classes, who think they can take care of themselves by utilizing what they do in those classes (and maybe that works for them), women who come for a one-shot class in self defense may or may not come away being able to defend themselves. Remember - these are the 'church ladies' in your community. Something is better than nothing at all, I guess. KT

[hedgehogey]

Something is better than nothing at all, I guess.

Is it? People don't start from zero fighting ability.

For instance, if you were to teach a woman that the best defense against a jab was a spinning sidekick, youd've actually *worsened* her fighting ability.

[mj-hi-yah]

Is it? People don't start from zero fighting ability.

For instance, if you were to teach a woman that the best defense against a jab was a spinning sidekick, youd've actually *worsened* her fighting ability. Hedgehogey I'm thinking maybe you are a regular riot! :shrug: I really don't think anyone here is looking to do that. Let's clarify shall we? Learning anything appropriate for self defense is better than learning nothing appropriate for self defense. :asian:

Oh waste of my typing I see you've been banned, hmmmmm....what could have brought that on?:lol:

[KenpoTess]

Yeppers.. Hedgehogey has been permanently banned.. The Troll~!!!

[mj-hi-yah]

Yeppers.. Hedgehogey has been permanently banned.. The Troll~!!!Tess you always make me :rofl:

[KenpoTess]

*does the Snoopy/Elephant happy dance in my chair* heheee Ditto MJ~!!!

[Brother John]

I only used the terms as a way of distinguishing the sources/references that I am taking these ideas from in order to develop student ability and performance.
Thank you!
Now I think I understand.

Your Brother
John

[mj-hi-yah]

*does the Snoopy/Elephant happy dance in my chair* heheee Ditto MJ~!!!*with laughing tears* see what I mean????

[Martial Tucker]

Which is more efficient? Who knows? I think it all depends upon the sense of urgency in each woman taking the class, and what she expects to gain from it. The same way that you have women taking aerobics classes called kick boxing classes, who think they can take care of themselves by utilizing what they do in those classes (and maybe that works for them), women who come for a one-shot class in self defense may or may not come away being able to defend themselves. Remember - these are the 'church ladies' in your community. Something is better than nothing at all, I guess. KTHi KT,

My school has had good success with the single session format you mentioned, but IMHO, there are 2 key requirements:1. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it is absolutely vital that the women understand the violent nature of what they may have to do in a real situation, and decide/accept in advance that they are willing to do these things to another person in the name of survival. If they don't, and the unfortunate time come, they will hesitate, and be in a lot of trouble. 2. I believe you can learn enough in a single class to successfully defend yourself against an opponent who is untrained and not expecting you to fight back with any skill. HOWEVER.....Just like a regular MA student, you can't just attend a class, file it all in your memory, and walk away thinking you're ready. At a minimum, you need to mentally review and if possible, practice the things you have learned regularly ( I think at least once/week, even if it's only against an imaginary assailant)
if you expect to have a prayer of responding with little or no hesitation when needed.

As for the aerobic kickboxing classes, I think most of them are a travesty.
Even if they are promoted to the students as just exercise, I see a lot of bad form that will eventually result in knee problems. If the material is being presented as exercise that you can use as self-defense, it's even worse, because the stuff I see being done is worthless, and it is giving a lot of women a false sense of security.

MT

[kenpo tiger]

Hi KT,

My school has had good success with the single session format you mentioned, but IMHO, there are 2 key requirements:1. As I mentioned in an earlier post in this thread, it is absolutely vital that the women understand the violent nature of what they may have to do in a real situation, and decide/accept in advance that they are willing to do these things to another person in the name of survival. If they don't, and the unfortunate time come, they will hesitate, and be in a lot of trouble. 2. I believe you can learn enough in a single class to successfully defend yourself against an opponent who is untrained and not expecting you to fight back with any skill. HOWEVER.....Just like a regular MA student, you can't just attend a class, file it all in your memory, and walk away thinking you're ready. At a minimum, you need to mentally review and if possible, practice the things you have learned regularly ( I think at least once/week, even if it's only against an imaginary assailant)
if you expect to have a prayer of responding with little or no hesitation when needed.

As for the aerobic kickboxing classes, I think most of them are a travesty.
Even if they are promoted to the students as just exercise, I see a lot of bad form that will eventually result in knee problems. If the material is being presented as exercise that you can use as self-defense, it's even worse, because the stuff I see being done is worthless, and it is giving a lot of women a false sense of security.

MT
Hey MT,
Those kickboxing classes are a sore subject with me. My tkd instructor concentrated more on promoting and teaching those classes than ours (more fodder for his bed -- but that's another thing entirely). I have actually had women from those classes tell me they can defend themselves. Hmm.

Anyway, your point about the one-time classes is well taken. I don't endorse that as the way to teach self-defense to women, but it's appropriate for those 'church ladies' I mentioned, since they're not interested in ma, just being safe in the mall parking lot. You cannot make someone do more than they want to, and our hope in presenting those classes to the community is so that women are made aware that there are tools like this to help them. KT

Tess,
It's a shame that you all have to ban people from the boards at times. Thank you for being such a great 'watchdog' for us all. [Cute elephant dancer, btw.] KT

[shesulsa]

Shesulsa,

Further to your comment about individuality in training women for self defense: I have been doing self-defense and awareness classes since being certified to do same about 6 years ago. During that time, the classes have varied, depending upon the specific topic to be covered. Some of them had two components: a 'classroom'-type setting, where I essentially spoke about statistics and not becoming one (about a half hour each time), followed by a 'hands-on' session, between 30 and 45 minutes in duration, where different hypothetical situations are given and defenses taught. In-depth classes were then offered for a three or four week period subsequent to that, taught by the head instructor with two or three of the certified female instructors present and assisting. That was very successful the few times it was conducted as a mother/daughter class for the school's students. The other is the way my current instructor does it, which is a class one afternoon or evening during the week offering one-time, easy to learn and utilize techniques for self defense. (At no time does sparring enter into these classes, as these are not martial arts students, just ladies trying to get a grip on what they could and should do if attacked.) The 'classroom' part, with the statistics, is minimal - maybe 15 minutes - and done by our head instructor.

Which is more efficient? Who knows? I think it all depends upon the sense of urgency in each woman taking the class, and what she expects to gain from it. The same way that you have women taking aerobics classes called kick boxing classes, who think they can take care of themselves by utilizing what they do in those classes (and maybe that works for them), women who come for a one-shot class in self defense may or may not come away being able to defend themselves. Remember - these are the 'church ladies' in your community. Something is better than nothing at all, I guess. KT
I like these programs. Not everyone who wants to learn self-defense wants to go through a belt-ranking system and fight the big bad boys - but they do want to feel a bit safer.

I honestly believe that awareness and education are the most important factors because these engage preventative behavior. What's that saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?

Speaking of education, I recently purchased a pocket survival guide. It stresses the importance of keeping oneself in excellent physical condition so that should you need to run, climb, jump, swim a long distance or in deep water with no flotation device, etcetera, you will be able to do so. How many women specifically are able to do this? We prioritize family and home (most of us do) and sometimes career over personal safety empowerment. Many women don't go to the gym because they can't afford it or, most often, don't have time for it. I think basic survival skills can also apply in self-defense situations also.

Tess: It's too bad when people have to leave because their minds are closed. Thank you anyway, however.

[kenpo tiger]

Shesulsa,

What's the name of the pocket guide? Sounds like something which could be worked into a school's self defense curriculum. KT

[mj-hi-yah]

Speaking of education, I recently purchased a pocket survival guide. It stresses the importance of keeping oneself in excellent physical condition so that should you need to run, climb, jump, swim a long distance or in deep water with no flotation device, etcetera, you will be able to do so. How many women specifically are able to do this? We prioritize family and home (most of us do) and sometimes career over personal safety empowerment. Many women don't go to the gym because they can't afford it or, most often, don't have time for it. I think basic survival skills can also apply in self-defense situations also.That's interesting Shesulsa! I haven't done any serious swimming since I'm a child, but there is water all around where I live and climbing :idunno: ...the only problem I see is, as you say, time...never enough of that! Physical fitness really is important to this discussion....:asian:

[shesulsa]

It's just called the "Pocket Survival Guide" and it's put out and published by a local forestry - Gifford Pinchot Forestry Department. I bought it at the gift shop when we went spelunking in the Ape Caves here in Washington.

I'll bet if you go to a local forestry site (say, a waterfall or cave) you might find something similar, and there are plenty of survival guides out there. In fact, one of the best ones I have is the Army Survival Manual. I bought it at Barnes and Noble for about 6.99 when they had (hee hee) a surplus. Excellent information on survival skills!

Ladies, next time you go camping, try to split wood, build the fire on your own and tend it. Let any fellas who come along do the cooking. You'll get a kick out of watching them cook and they'll get a kick out of watching you split wood. Clean your own fish or game. I personally have never hunted nor cleaned game fresh from kill, so this would be a challenge for me.

If jumping right in is too indimidating, lead a troop of girl scouts or boy scouts for a year or two. Being a GS leader, you get very affordable training and good resources...though I've heard it's nothing compared to Boy Scouts. They camp every month - we only went once during the year.

[kenpo tiger]

It's just called the "Pocket Survival Guide" and it's put out and published by a local forestry - Gifford Pinchot Forestry Department. I bought it at the gift shop when we went spelunking in the Ape Caves here in Washington.

I'll bet if you go to a local forestry site (say, a waterfall or cave) you might find something similar, and there are plenty of survival guides out there. In fact, one of the best ones I have is the Army Survival Manual. I bought it at Barnes and Noble for about 6.99 when they had (hee hee) a surplus. Excellent information on survival skills!

Ladies, next time you go camping, try to split wood, build the fire on your own and tend it. Let any fellas who come along do the cooking. You'll get a kick out of watching them cook and they'll get a kick out of watching you split wood. Clean your own fish or game. I personally have never hunted nor cleaned game fresh from kill, so this would be a challenge for me.

If jumping right in is too indimidating, lead a troop of girl scouts or boy scouts for a year or two. Being a GS leader, you get very affordable training and good resources...though I've heard it's nothing compared to Boy Scouts. They camp every month - we only went once during the year.
Thanks for the info about the pocket guide. I'll bet it's available online through the government at one site or another.

Funny about cleaning fish. We were given a whole salmon recently. Guess who cleaned that -- and I had no idea of what I was doing, but it's kind of empowering. (Initially made me wonder who I offended in order to receive the fish...) :) KT

[Lisa]

I honestly believe that awareness and education are the most important factors because these engage preventative behavior. What's that saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure?
I absolutely agree here. A one time class may not make a woman bullet proof. Hopefully however, it will instill in them the self confidence and awareness to defend themselves if the time ever becomes necessary. One of the most important things when defending yourself against an attacker is keeping a level head. If self defence classes instills even a little confidence in a woman and gives her some skill to fight back, then she has already won a big part of the battle.

[shesulsa]

One of the most important things when defending yourself against an attacker is keeping a level head. If self defence classes instills even a little confidence in a woman and gives her some skill to fight back, then she has already won a big part of the battle.
Yes - keeping a level head. So here's a good question (I think): how do you address this in a self-defense class, assuming (again) that we are talking about a short-term training course? The panic response is a killer - I'm still trying to get past it. You can talk about it and educate about it, but...how do you tell short-termers to train for a cool head?

[Lisa]

Yes - keeping a level head. So here's a good question (I think): how do you address this in a self-defense class, assuming (again) that we are talking about a short-term training course? The panic response is a killer - I'm still trying to get past it. You can talk about it and educate about it, but...how do you tell short-termers to train for a cool head?
Good question Shesulsa and I wish I could come up with some magical answer but I am afraid that there is not one. Level-headedness (is that a word? :shrug: ) comes from within. Panic response really is the biggest killer. Hopefully by providing them with some basic skills to use in case of an attack, they will pull something out of that training when needed. Even if it is just the smallest part, enough to get them away from their attacker and to safety.

[loki09789]

Good question Shesulsa and I wish I could come up with some magical answer but I am afraid that there is not one. Level-headedness (is that a word? :shrug: ) comes from within. Panic response really is the biggest killer. Hopefully by providing them with some basic skills to use in case of an attack, they will pull something out of that training when needed. Even if it is just the smallest part, enough to get them away from their attacker and to safety.Level head training or reinforcement can be trained IF you give students a game plan through scenario training. Military, LEO and civilians trained in solid self defense that have spoken about it after the fact all seem to say that they fall back on their training when the fit hits the shan...so train them well.

Ex. Rehearse every step in a scenario of say the 'purse snatch' from how to walk down the street to reduce your targetability to how to report the incident to the police. Make sure every phase/step/part of this scenario is understood to be a series of 'guidelines' that will require adaptation when the plan meets reality but at least it is a starting point.

Ever notice how the first time you got hit hard in the belly, it felt like the worst thing on the face of the planet? But as you continued to train, the neural signal wasn't as intense? The same is true for mental stress. Simulate scenarios and train with progressively increasing intensity so that you don't 'lock up' like a deer in the head lights but respond with technical and tactical skill.

Regular, progressive and controlled exposure to stress that allows students to apply their training will help develop the 'level head' that most students are looking for.

More simply put, 'live' training or 'training like you expect to fight' so that you can 'fight like you have trained' is the way to go. Just make sure that you are dancing on the edge of 'challenging' without going over into mental abuse or you will lose them. After action or reflection time after the drill to talk out the good and bad things is useful too. Then, give them a chance to focus on improving the parts of the response that didn't go so well.

[BrandiJo]

i learned self defence with the rest of my class my first few times in class everything was like touch and go and if it was a man grabing me he had to tell me what he was grabing and make sure i was comfortable being touched that way at the time(that was a class rule not me being a wuss) ...now that iv been around the group for awhile its kind of anythign goes as long as iv learned how to counter it :)

[KenpoNoChikara]

Just like everyone else, unless you feel they would do better starting out slow.

[shesulsa]

Ex. Rehearse every step in a scenario of say the 'purse snatch' from how to walk down the street to reduce your targetability to how to report the incident to the police. Make sure every phase/step/part of this scenario is understood to be a series of 'guidelines' that will require adaptation when the plan meets reality but at least it is a starting point.

...

Regular, progressive and controlled exposure to stress that allows students to apply their training will help develop the 'level head' that most students are looking for.

...

Just make sure that you are dancing on the edge of 'challenging' without going over into mental abuse or you will lose them. After action or reflection time after the drill to talk out the good and bad things is useful too. Then, give them a chance to focus on improving the parts of the response that didn't go so well.
Now this I can agree with. What you have described is what I meant by "Progression" and it will take longer with some people than others, that's all. Well put, Paul.

[KenpoTess]

Reviving thread :)