Trouble In Imaf-delaney Land

[bloodwood]

It appears that IMAF-Delaney executive director Michael Bates has had a falling out with JD and has jumped ship. Bates web site now sends you to the IMAF site which has MB name removed from list of officers. Not getting his share of the pie I would guess. Or maybe he finally realized JD is NOT the Professor. He is now jumping on the Max Pallen bandwagon. Could be the beginning of the end for IMAF-Delaney.:toilclaw: :sadsong: :sadsong: :sadsong:

[arnisador]

Originally posted by bloodwood

Or maybe he finally realized JD is NOT the Professor.

But I thought Mr. Bates was a Professor (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1048)?

Well, I don't want to take pleasure in any group failing, but it would be nice to have fewer groups overall.

[Guro Harold]

Hmmm, it also seems that they took Michael's url www.remypresas.com, which now redirects to JD's website.

[bloodwood]

Just heard Michael Bates will now follow Max Pallen.
Burn your bridges and go with the flavor of the month. How quickly some try and replace the REAL Professor. Maybe it's a credibility thing.
Any wagers on who JD's new executive director will be?

Rearranging furniture on the titanic?

[thekuntawman]

i thought max pallen teaches doce pares? yes, i remember seeing one of his son doing doce pares at a tournament in stockton. is he modern arnis too?

[bloodwood]

To the best of my knowledge Max Pallen is not Modern Arnis but a combined form of Filipino styles

[Guro Harold]

I don't think so, I think he is still teaching his family style.

[Brian Johns]

Very interesting turn of events. I cannot claim to read minds but I've noticed that, in past Modern Arnis camps, JD and Bates always hung out together. I got the impression that they were good friends/buddies. Who knows what happened between the two of them ? To be honest, I'm quite surprised about this turn of events. Perhaps there are things that I was not aware of.

Bloodwood: what forms the basis for your belief that Mr. Bates has jumped on the Max Pallen bandwagon ? Where did you get that information ?

:confused:

[Brian Johns]

Just noticed that on the "Seminars" portion of the JD website that the Philadelphia seminar scheduled for the fall has been deleted, which lends further credence of a split between JD and Mr. Bates.

The other thing is that the loss of Mr. Bates further dilutes the quality of instructors of that group (what little there was in the first place).

[Susumu Kodai]

Dishonorable Delaney...

...And So It Begins.

Will his webmistress now go back through her 'camp chronics' and yet once again rewrite history?

They erased others from their records in the past. Will they now Erase "Master-Bates" too? I tried Mr. "Master-Bates" website. It did not resolve.

This is very interesting...especially since I believe they recently had several seminars with Max Pallen.

One must wonder if "Master-Bates" approached the Dishonorable one and asked questions about the "Basics" of Modern Arnis.

Perhaps Dishonorables past now begins to catch up, and karma balances.

We Remain, Kodai.

[Bob Hubbard]

For all we know, it was a clean, professional break. I'm sure more information will turn up soon.

I checked JD's site, there 'appear' to have been some additional alterations, but nothing I currently have the time to dig into. Some of the event write ups appear to have Mr. Bates references removed or rearanged, but that could also be just normal editing. I'd have to check with other sources first.

If that group is currently disintegrating, it would be a shame. Hopefully those tallented individuals within the group will find memberships with the other thriving MA groups.

Again, I don't have anything substantial to go on though. For all we know, there can be a very good reason for things. Personal ones that are none of our business. Ya know?

:asian:

[bloodwood]

Whoopass
The Bates-Pallen connection has been going on for some time now. Bates latched on to Pallen at the IMAF-Delaney tribute to the Professor and has expanded the relationship ever since. JD is not getting the draw that Bates is used to getting with Professor Remy so he is seeking a bigger name to associate with. He has already visited Pallen in CA and Pallen would have been part of his upcoming camps.

Renegade had said earlier that it was a double edged sword for JD and Bates to bring in outside instructors to their camps. The good was to bump up attendance and the bad was JD would be overshadowed. This appears to be happening.

[Brian Johns]

Hmm. Interesting. I did notice that the JD website did have an announcement for an upcoming "Triple Impact FMA Seminar" in November featuring JD, Pallen and somebody else (I forget who). That announcement has now been deleted from that website. So it's possible that JD not only cut ties to Bates but also to Pallen.

[Guro Harold]

What's up Whoop!

Yeah, the triple threat announcement it appears was removed, but Lisa's one day seminar annoucement at Pallen's is still there.

Open question, if IMAF-Delaney dissolves, or as people like Mr. Bates part ways from JD, will the MOTTs welcome them back?

Palusut

[Brian Johns]

<<<Open question, if IMAF-Delaney dissolves, or as people like Mr. Bates part ways from JD, will the MOTTs welcome them back? >>>>

Good question. I don't have an answer for that. While this whole thing with Mr. Bates is interesting, it just might be premature to predict the ending of IMAF-Delaney. I guess that we'll have to wait and see how this whole thing unfolds.

Another thing is that while we all may have disagreements with various groups, I personally do not hope for the failure of any one group. It takes work for anybody to try to get something going, even if it's somebody you may have disagreements with. To hope for the failure of one group is to hope for the failure of all groups. I think that the best that we can do is to do the best we can for our particular group, whether it be Delaney's group, the MOTTs, the WMAA, MARRPIO, or WMAC or any other group.

It should be interesting to see how the Delaney group moves forward after this Bates episode.

[Bob Hubbard]

Well said.

We are all human, so there will be areas of disagreement, but to hope for the other groups to fail will only hurt us all in the end. Every group brings various strengths to the table, and all have talented individuals. Everyone has seen different things from GM Presas, so only by learning from as many as we can, do we get the full picture. (IMHO)

I will be interesting to see how things turn out.

:asian:

[bloodwood]

Even if Bates is asked to join the MOTTS, which I don't think will happen anyway, I don't believe he would do so just for the fact that he would be subordinate to too many people. He'll look for new coat tails such as those of Max Pallen. He may have just burned too many bridges in the Modern Arnis community to be effective. Time will tell. I have also heard that he no longer teaches his Okinawan style that was 50% of his curriculum. Who knows where his head is these days.:idunno:

[Brian Johns]

<<<We are all human, so there will be areas of disagreement, but to hope for the other groups to fail will only hurt us all in the end.>>>

Well said. I completely agree with you on this.

[bloodwood]

Working together is the only way to advance the art and continue the Professor's dream. Power strugles within an organization can only end up in disaster and hurt their credibility, but worst of all it will effect the students who have put their trust in them. What kind of message does this send down through the ranks?
If I remember correctly on Bates web site he spoke of sitting in his kitchen with the Professor and Jeff Delaney and mapped out the future of Modern Arnis. I bet this wasn't part of the conversation. Maybe it's good that there is more than one group to carry on the tradition.:cheers: :argue: :cheers: :argue: :cheers:

[Guro Harold]

I would hope that by asking my original question that I did not paint myself as a person whose intent was wishing for a group or person to fail or desolve, that is not my style.

My intent, however, was to plant a seed for the necessity to forgive and not to rub people's faces in things when mistakes are made.

[arnisador]

Without wishing for any particular group to fail, I still have to say" Less is more in this case. Fewer groups is better.

[Brian Johns]

<<<<I would hope that by asking my original question that I did not paint myself as a person whose intent was wishing for a group or person to fail or desolve, that is not my style.

My intent, however, was to plant a seed for the necessity to forgive and not to rub people's faces in things when mistakes are made.>>>>>

Whoops. What I said was in no way directed at you, Palasut. I was just expressing my thoughts on the whole situation. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the need to forgive when somebody makes a mistake. You did raise a valid question on what happens IF that group dissolves, then what happens. Who knows ? It's very interesting to see this whole thing unfold. We can only speculate as to what happens from here on.

By the way, it was great working with you at the Raleigh camp !!!:D

WOOOOOOOOO!!!!

[Mao]

Hey, what's the matter with you two stirring poop anyway?? HUH?? :D Just playin". I do agree that something like this is interesting to watch unfold. We should all remember our place. :asian:

[Guro Harold]

Yo Whoop,

I did not think that you :fart: 'ed in my general direction. I was just clarifying my intent.

If people in JD's organization decide to leave or are considering it or even if there leadership members have a change of heart, they would need to know from the IMAF, INC organization that there is an olive branch or fig leaf to cover them.

I like Nelson Mandela's example when he became president. At the end of minority rule in SA, a Truth and Reconciliation committee was establish not out of revenge and to dish out revenge but to bring an avenue for people who had committed crimes to admit, confess, and bring closure to the people who had suffered loss and commited the atrocities.

Just think of how bad it could have been for a man who was falsely imprisioned for 25 years and then came into power with people who had suffered as much as he, things could have been worse.

Therefore, someone has to take the high road, even though its the hardest sometime.

Best regards,

Palusut

PS: It was cool working with you in Raleigh as well. Best regards to MAO as well.

[Brian Johns]

Yo Palusut,

I got your intent loud and clear. With regard to your note, I agree with you 100%.

<<<If people in JD's organization decide to leave or are considering it or even if there leadership members have a change of heart, they would need to know from the IMAF, INC organization that there is an olive branch or fig leaf to cover them.>>>

You're absolutely 100% correct in that they need to know that there is an olive branch toward those who want to leave JD or any other organization and come to the IMAF INC (assuming that there are those who do want to leave JD....that remains to be seen). The Nelson Mandela example is a great one.
:cool:

WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

[Guro Harold]

DEARNIS.COM,

With all due respect, are you still a member of Jeff's IMAF organization. It appears that the website was changed with your previous role removed. Your decision to comment on this will be respected.

Palusut

[dearnis.com]

Palusut (and others);
Nice question; blunt but respectful.
I resigned from the IMAF several weeks ago. My reasons were 1)financial strain in traveling to events 2) use of time for same 3) differing direction from the oragnization (see below) and 4) re-evaluation of my priorities.
Jeff, like many others in the Modern Arnis family, has never been anything but a good friend to me, and we parted ways on good terms. I will say for the record that I believe Jeff, like many others, is honoring his obligations to the Professor in the manner he believes best. (and I will not say any more on this point).
My decision to leave is independant of, and unrelated to Mr. Bates departure; while we are geographically close my operation and his have always been independant.
Essentially I realized that I was spending far too much time away, and that both my home life and my own students were suffering for it. I am a full-time LEO with additional on-call obligations, and could not/can not continue to use what down time I get traveling to camps and events all over the country. Additionally, I have become increasingly involved in training in Sayoc Kali locally, and this is really where I want to invest my personal training time and energy.
I have stayed silent on almost all of the issues that have come up regarding Jeff's group; I have my opinions but am electing not to share them; sorry. I am not, nor was I ever, a spokesman for the group, and it would be inappropriate for me to take on the role now that I have left.
As far as being 'welcomed back' by the IMAF/MoTTs I dont intend to go that route. Within that group as well are many people who have been nothing but good to me through the years, have respected my choices, and have kept the lines of communication open (most notably Brian Z.; a real gentleman and a true credit to Professor). The same comments apply; I think most involved are doing their best to honor their obligations to Professor as best they can.
I don't know if I have answered your question completely or not; if I can add anything let me know.
Chad
PS- my own school/training group/whatever you want to call it, Delaware Modern Arnis is, and has always been, open to anyone of any affiliation who wants to train in the Professor's art; we are located near I95 in Wilmington ( about 25 minutes from Center City Philly- traffic cooperating- and- ideal road conditions- an hour from Baltimore)

:drinkbeer :cool:

[Guro Harold]

Chad,

Both you and Brett have always carried yourselves with class and dignity and it was a pleasure to be seated with both of you at the memorial service for the Professor last year in Phili.

I can respect your reasoning and decision. I chose to ask you directly because I knew that you had joined MT and there was no need to be coy and the JD IMAF website sometimes mysterious changes its content without notice.

I will also say publicly that I do not have a personal problem with anyone who is in JD's IMAF or JD himself. If Remy Presas considered you a master in his system, then you are a master. It is not my position to question that appointment nor of the other six, especially from the the viewpoint of being just a lakan. But as others like TheKuntawMan have usually re-iterated, you must earn and backup your credentials with skills and character. To to Dr. Shea's credit, he never eliminated Jeff's spot nor filled it with someone else. It was always and will be the original "seven" which was the Professor's wish.

You are so lucky to be so close to GT Chris Sayoc in Pennsylvania. I get to train some of the techniques in Ray Dionaldo's FCS but I have to travel all the way to Florida.

Best of fortune to you and all of your endeavors.

Harold (Palusut)

[dearnis.com]

I tend to lurk on forums much more than speak...but a direct question deserves a direct answer.