Helping someone of higher rank/experience

[Zepp]

Just curious: Have any of you ever given advice, constructive criticism, or a helpful observation to someone of higher rank or more experience than yourself? If so how did they take it? Does anyone think it's entirely inappropriate, and maybe even pretentious for someone to give help to a higher ranking classmate? How would you feel if someone of less rank and expereince than you attempted to help you with an observation about the way you do soemthing?

I'm only a mere 1st dan in my class, so I don't usually give "advice" to my fellow 1st dans or to the few 2nd dans, but once in a while, if I think it will help them, I'll point out an observation of mine. One example of this was a few classes ago when I was sparring one of the 2nd dans whom our instructor is hoping to have test soon. He's a lot taller than me, so he's got a pretty good reach advantage on me, and he doesn't have to worry so much about guarding his head until I get close up to him. But when I did get close (with no small effort on my part- he made me work for it), I was repeatedly able to get in some shots to his head that went mostly unanswered. I have a pretty good rapport with this guy (and with most people in our class), so after our sparring session was over I mentioned to him that I thought he wasn't raising his guard up when I came in. He thought about it for a second, and then said I might be right, and he thanked me. But later on I thought about our differences in rank and I wondered if some people might have thought that I was out of line.

How do some of you higher ranking folk feel when a young upstart like me disagrees with you on something martial arts related on an internet forum?

[Mark Weiser]

Yes I have.

Once to a 4th Degree Black training someone on Fall Techs. I mentioned he should teach the young man to slap the mat after he is thrown on a fall. I was very nice about it and said Sir to the Instructor and made it into a question. "Sir are we supposed to slap the mat after being throw?"

I have given little points to refine a few things from time to time if I know something is not being taught that is neccessary for proper techs.

[Lisa]

Okay, I voted for sure I have eyes and a mind of my own but...

I think a lot of what I would say would depend on the people I trained with. If the school encourages that sort of thing then go for it. If there is a set hierarchy then you probably would be best to keep things to yourself. It sounds from your post that your sparring partner appreciated your comment, however, not everyone will. The school I train in is very much an open atmosphere. Everyone helps everyone else, after all the instructor can't be everywhere at once and different people pick up on different things. Where I might be good at defending a technique, my sparring partner might not remember how to counter this. By my pointing it out to him, and him using what I have taught him, it forces me to use other counters and makes me better at defence. It also furthers both our learning experiences.

[Han-Mi]

we all have something to learn from everyone else we come in contact with. We aren't perfect and it sometimes takes an unbiased or unattached observer to help us improve or get passed something. I remind my instructor of things all the time, he can't remember absolutely everything right off the top of his head. Just as long as you are tactful about it and don't assum anything in sparring. I have been working with lower belts before and they would point out something I should have done(if I wanted to hit them) and so the next time I did it and they got hit. It isn't that I didn't know to do it the first time, it was that I was working them out, after this I usually explain to them why they got hit and that they should not assume that a higher rank did not take an opportunity because he/she did not see it.

I'm babbling now but, you get the point.

[TigerWoman]

I have only two others that are equal in rank-2nd, both men. One doesn't ask me and doesn't want advice in front of others. The other is also a second dan in another Karate discipline and occasionally asks me. I don't analyze either's technique because I don't feel it is my place to offer advice not solicited. As for lower ranks giving me advice, it is uncommon. The rule in our school is that you have to be a instructor, a black belt to teach. No one is allowed to argue, disagree with an instructor/BB on the floor. If a green, blue belt whatever wants to discuss my own form, he/she should do it in private. If we are supposed to be doing a particular technique/kick and he is offering me criticisms on how to do something, I would be not be able to get into a "discussion" about why he is right or I am right during the workout. If he says, you are not jumping high enough, I think I would just smile and keep on. That is the master's perogative to teach and correct. Actually that student should be working on his own form/technique and not worrying about others. We do have same belts or higher belts go over forms together and teach each other. But their diagreements are settled by a black belt or the master. Any student can help another student but within his realm of training and understanding. But if we are supposed to be working out continuously kicking, it is not accepted to interrupt someone with "your criticism or help" especially when the master or instructor of the class is looking on. TW

[kenpo tiger]

I didn't vote, primarily because there isn't an answer which fits how I feel about this question. My school also is an open and friendly atmosphere, and we all help each other. If I have any disagreement with someone of higher rank, I will ask why they are doing the tech/form/set the way they are. We've all realized that our instructor teaches us the same things the same ways initially, but either he or each student has adapted things to suit his (the student's) body mechanics on occasion. There is always open discussion - never dictatorial rhetoric among us - and we will usually either come to a meeting of the minds ourselves or, if we can't, will consult our head instructor. I have equivalent or more ma experience than most of the people who outrank me in my school, BUT (not shouting, just emphasizing a point) I have less kenpo experience than they do, and it can only benefit my training to ask questions. I have yet to have anyone take offense when I ask them a question about why they are teaching or doing something the way they are.

[WLMantisKid]

I think, to a certain extent, creating school hierarchy's with a belt system can bring down the level of quality. You'll have people who will think that they're better than the lower ranked and if a lower rank makes a simple observation about something the upper might be doing wrong. The lower ranked could be wrong, but the upper rank will never know because they didn't bother at least checking it.

I go to a traditional CMA school. The hierarchy - students and sifu.

[ppko]

It's absolutely ok because you should never stop learning and a lot of learning you do is from your students

[terryl965]

:ultracool I have been doing this for 40 years and I for one welcome all comments from anybody no matter if they wear a belt or not input is always a good forum to learn from, good, bad or indifference we as MAers can alway get the info. and digest it and take out what we need and disgard the rest.. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[tmanifold]

I have been doing this kind of stuff for over a decade but I have very little rank to speak of due the fact that I jump around arts alot and many arts I did have no rank system. I have always been willing to add my opinions but I tend to do it respectfully. I might say something like, "Thats an interesting move, I have always done it this way. It has worked good for me in the past." As long as you don't give off an attitude or try to lecture them on their area of expertice, it is normally not a problem.

Tony

[TigerWoman]

I think, to a certain extent, creating school hierarchy's with a belt system can bring down the level of quality. You'll have people who will think that they're better than the lower ranked and if a lower rank makes a simple observation about something the upper might be doing wrong. The lower ranked could be wrong, but the upper rank will never know because they didn't bother at least checking it.


I didn't create our system, its just the way its done in our school. I create enough waves as I do. Taekwondo's format is different than Kenpo in that we do alot of repetition, more physical workout. Can't stop to answer questions. Master's job to answer. We don't do alot of technique workouts in set movements. Once a technique is taught at the beginning of the workout, we all just do it until the number is reached. A question is answered again by the master. Black belts don't stop their workout to answer an "observation" or get chewed out as well as the lower belt.

However, I do remember being a lower belt and asking questions of the black belts during sparring or doing forms and alot of the time I would get a grunt and ignored. As if I shouldn't have asked. So I do try to help as much as I can and teach too even though I'm not assigned to do that for someone. Been there, ya know. TW

[WLMantisKid]

But if you practive something over and over and you ignore outside observations, then you could be ingraining something wrong into your head. A habit that's hard to break.

[TigerWoman]

Yeah, I recognize that. Right now, I practice at home. I've tested for all the forms I do. But memory is a funny thing. So, I'm consulting my books and notes too all the time. Have been out of class for a month but daily workout/review.

For black belts, the master has instituted black belt "testings" actually reviews of our forms every 6 months but it is the complete black belt test done over. He grades everything we do, forms, kicks etc. with 1-10 grade. That can be good or bad depending on the objectivity/motivation behind the grade. Anyway, I usually asked the other 2nd dan for advice, since my master had refused to teach me for the last two years. I won't get into that again, but yes, we all need a teacher. TW

[MichiganTKD]

Each Black Belt's technique and manners are their own responsibility, and the responsibility of their Instructor. Which means, if I see a higher belt doing technique in a way I feel is wrong, unless he specifically asks for my input, I accept it as the way he does it.
Few things are more annoying than unsolicited advice. As a black belt, it is my responsibility to catch if I am doing things wrong. If I'm not sure, I can definitely ask a lower belt, especially one I feel has good technique. If I don't ask, don't give me advice. If my technique suffers because of it, so be it.
Even in black belt classes, I never saw black belts give unsolicited advice to each other.

[DeLamar.J]

Just curious: Have any of you ever given advice, constructive criticism, or a helpful observation to someone of higher rank or more experience than yourself? If so how did they take it? Does anyone think it's entirely inappropriate, and maybe even pretentious for someone to give help to a higher ranking classmate? How would you feel if someone of less rank and expereince than you attempted to help you with an observation about the way you do soemthing?

I'm only a mere 1st dan in my class, so I don't usually give "advice" to my fellow 1st dans or to the few 2nd dans, but once in a while, if I think it will help them, I'll point out an observation of mine. One example of this was a few classes ago when I was sparring one of the 2nd dans whom our instructor is hoping to have test soon. He's a lot taller than me, so he's got a pretty good reach advantage on me, and he doesn't have to worry so much about guarding his head until I get close up to him. But when I did get close (with no small effort on my part- he made me work for it), I was repeatedly able to get in some shots to his head that went mostly unanswered. I have a pretty good rapport with this guy (and with most people in our class), so after our sparring session was over I mentioned to him that I thought he wasn't raising his guard up when I came in. He thought about it for a second, and then said I might be right, and he thanked me. But later on I thought about our differences in rank and I wondered if some people might have thought that I was out of line.

How do some of you higher ranking folk feel when a young upstart like me disagrees with you on something martial arts related on an internet forum?
I never try to tell someone of higher rank that they are doing something wrong unless they come right out and ask me.

[cblaze230]

when i was teaching at the studio lower belts NEVER questioned the instructors as to the why it was done a certain way by one in a private or group setting. it was the genral understood rule that the instructor has command of the mat, period! full stop. any discrepencies (sp) were to be handled by the Head instructor, in private. at one point all instructors went through a two month 8-12 hour day each week (together) after lessons, teaching etc. to eliminate through repetition any personal technique influences that resulted in students questioning the instructors if it was being taught differently than what we learned. instructors Never questioned another instructor while on the floor or mat, or in front of another student. Q & A time for instructors was for our training day with each other and the Head instructor. any problems after that was between you and the big guy....usually very painful repititions involved there.

[tmanifold]

The other side of this is that as some one with a long history of martial arts behind me, in many arts, I have a hard time when I start a new art and some guy with a year total experience starts to impart his wisdom. Its not there fault and I am sure they are just trying to be helpful but it does bug me a bit.

Tony

[Blindside]

If I catch an error that my instructor is showing, I will point it out, admittedly I will be polite and try to put the error on myself: "I thought we were doing a technique XXX there???" The reason I will point it out is that otherwise we will have to turn around and fix the problem at the next class(es), an instructors ego shouldn't be bigger than the welfare of their students.

As for me being corrected by a underbelt, that is fine, I can and will learn from anybody. If I'm not doing something right, it should be pointed out.

Lamont

[Andrew Green]

No rank, so no problem :D

I get asked regularly, "What happens if...?", "Why don't you do it like this...?" "Can't he just do this...? etc. And reply "Let's try it" and we roll around for a bit and answer the question. Occasionally I get a suprise :D Which is good, cause I like to learn too. But usually things work out like I said they would, which is also good cause at least someone is thinking enough to question things and not just mindlessly following along and repeating what I do and say...

[kenpo tiger]

Hey Mich. Haven't seen you around lately.

You said: Few things are more annoying than unsolicited advice. As a black belt, it is my responsibility to catch if I am doing things wrong. If I'm not sure, I can definitely ask a lower belt, especially one I feel has good technique. If I don't ask, don't give me advice.

Okay. I agree that unsolicited advice is annoying. And yes, as a black belt you are entitled to conduct yourself in a certain manner. However. (And this is unsolicited advice, but please don't be annoyed with me because, by posting you tacitly agree to allow comments.) The way I see it, being a black belt is not only the sum total of years of hard work and training and blood and sweat and tears, it is also an attitude and a demeanor. [There are other threads in the forum which speak to whether respect is given or earned, so I won't go into that again.] It can be your responsibility, if you so choose, to set an example for others in your school. It is also your responsibility, if you so choose, to accept that there are people who don't quite "get it" and see things the way you do. There are those who will offer advice, and you can treat it as a learning experience for both of you, or you can get angry and offended. I personally don't take offense if a lower belt offers some advice (see my post upthread). I'm not infallible, and I welcome the opportunity for dialogue about something I truly love. :asian: KT

[Pale Rider]

The only way that I see that someone can correct me in a technique is if they are familiar with the technique that I am performing. How can one that isn't even in Martial Arts correct someone that is? Now I beleive that I am doing a technique and a gup questioned me politely and respectfully about a technique then I will do my best to either answer the question or correct the technique. I have listed to the advice of Gups because there are times when they see something that I didn't catch. Taken this under advisement, there are times when I may question a Higher Ranking Dan about a technique that they are performing. I have seen some Dans that are higher then men in some styles/organizations that shouldn't be wearing that rank, but I still treat them with respect as I would want to be treated.

So I believe that if anyone questions a technique performed by someone who is higher in rank, then it must be at least with respect, and honor.

[Kamaria Annina]

In our studio, our Master likes to have us train with different ranks, for variety. I don't mind helping higher ranks, if they ask or I see something that could be beneficial to them.

[Tae Kwon Doughboy]

I work out with one of my friends at work who is a BB. He often asks me to watch what he is doing and tell him my observation. I wouldn't even consider giving unsolisited advice because I am an orange belt and have nothing to offer him at his level.

I did offer suggestions on breathing, relaxation and energy management (from Tai Chi) which were well received. He would run out of steam way before I did. We both see the difference.

There is a BB that is new to our school that was complaining before class how his finger was hurting because a white belt kept kicking it while attempting break a board. I asked him he made them do pushups. He said no. I asked if they knew they were kicking his finger. He said no. He didn't want to lord his BB over them. I told him that I could understand but that if they don't know they won't stop. I asked him to let me know if I ever did. He took that well.

[RCastillo]

They didn't like it. They knew I was right, but I know better now than to help those that want no help. :asian:

[The Boar Man]

The other side of this is that as some one with a long history of martial arts behind me, in many arts, I have a hard time when I start a new art and some guy with a year total experience starts to impart his wisdom. Its not there fault and I am sure they are just trying to be helpful but it does bug me a bit.

Tony

Tony

I understand what you are saying and this is kind of common, especially if you jump around to several different arts. Take grappling or locking techniques. While one system might do a technique a particular way another system might not emphasize those fine points and just be concerned with does it hurt the person and is it effective. So a beginner belt might see you do something and think he as your senior (in the school) needs to correct you on that technique since you aren't doing it the schools way.

A friend of mine who is a long time martial artist and my senior in our dojo took Kenpo off and on for several years at a school. He would have to sit and listen to senior belts in Kenpo (BBs) lecture him on how kenpo is supreme to everything (yada yada yada) while he had possibly twice as much time in the martial arts as they did, and he had studied for various lengths of time several different systems. But he would do it because not to would cause discension in the school.

I use to run into the same problem as well when I visited different schools. However I believe that in time people will see that you have experience beyond them and accept your advice based on your experience and not your belt's color.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

I come at this from several different angles.

I have been brought up not to question the senior belts or to correct them especially in a class. However in my instructor's dojo which was a private dojo we did just that and he didn't mind, he encouraged our questions. (There wasn't anything that we could correct him on. :) ) However between the other students (BB's) who were training there advice was freely given when sparring. (We never had to many observations about forms though to correct each other. It just wasn't that type of training.)

However when out in public at other people's schools/classes we didn't break rank so to speak. We didn't correct instructors on katas etc. etc. since they might have been taught differently than us. This attitude helped when I went out in had to seek other schools due to relocating or something.

I help teach (as an assistant) at Hock's seminars (I walk the floor and help the participants with the techniques) and that is a totally different ballgame. There I generally ask if I can suggest something to the people (say two individuals are working on a technique) and then if they want advice/instruction great if not then I don't help. And I won't help or go back to them until they seek me out. Generally I do ask or I try to. Now I have no idea anyone's rank there and that shouldn't be an issue. But some people don't want any help what so ever, and that's cool as well.

And for myself generally if I'm screwing up than I want to know from whomever can give me insight on how to get better.

Mark

[hardheadjarhead]

Interesting thread. Let me offer up some related issues that border on this topic...all of which have to do with student/instructor relations.

There are schools where the "no questions asked, just do as I say" philosopy is paramount. There are others where intellectual curiosity is encouraged. Is there a balance to be struck between the two?

In my school a number of arts are taught, and we run towards the more relaxed atmosphere in each of them. Occasionally, though, we get the student with previous (and invariably limited) experience who attempts to teach his more senior partner techniques that are inappropriate or dangerous. This is at best a distraction from the instructor's goal, at worst a safety infraction.

I had a young man studying Tae Kwon Do with me who was taking Muay Thai at a school in his hometown when he'd go home for the summer. He loved Muay Thai with a passion, and kept adopting the Muay Thai stance instead of the TKD fighting stance I preferred him to take. I asked him to switch his stance, and he later complained, "I thought we were an eclectic school!" I reminded him that blending was fine at the proper time...but at the time we were doing pure TKD. There was some friction for a time with that...but he got his TKD black belt and now he is teaching Muay Thai for me.

Interestingly enough, he has a hard time teaching some of the TKD people in his class...they keep falling back on their old ways. The circle turns, and he's facing the challenge I faced with him.

So some rules of decorum may need to be enforced, or boundaries of politeness outlined.

I observe there are "questions" posed to instructors, and then there are "challenges" phrased as questions. Some of us have seen the latter...a cocky student whose estimation of his own skills is rather inflated, and he starts sniping away at the instructor in an attempt to damage the instructor's credibility and inflate his own in the eyes of his classmates. I get this most often from hyper-intellectual teenagers with social skills problems and...forgive me, but its true...law students.

How the instructor handles this is a reflection of his self-confidence as a martial artist. Very often this challenge goes along with other behaviors that many of us would find unacceptable: Fighting or countering his partner's techniques when they're trying to learn a movement, saying "Oh, yeah, but if you did that I'd just counter with THIS." Its difficult to handle boorish behavior like this. Thankfully people like this are rare.

All this aside, I encourage creativity and debate. My senior student in Hapkido goes to Small Circle seminars and comes back with new techniques...some of which I don't care for. I permit him to demonstrate them, debate their merits and contrast them with my methods. Sometimes he discards them...and sometimes I come to realize he's come back with a really superb move.

Personally, I'd rather not hide behind my rank and demand unconditional acceptance of everything I say or do...even if it is an error of mine. It would stifle the student, make me an insecure martinet, and make my school a very dry and infertile place.


Regards,


Steve

[MichiganTKD]

Hopefully, a black belt's ego is not so big that he cannot bring himself to ask a lower ranking student's advice. True, no black belt knows everything. And there is nothing wrong with a 4th Dan asking a 1st or 2nd Dan for comments about his technique. Also, there is nothing wrong with a Master Instructor asking a lower belt for help with something outside of class. Our Grandmaster has asked for advice on non-Tae Kwon Do matters many times, because he admits freely that, especially concerning how we do things in America, sometimes he doesn't know the best way.
However, it is my job as Instructor to teach my students the best way I know how. Once they make black belt, although they are still and always will be my students, they are responsible for their own technique. Even our Grandmaster has adopted an almost hands off approach to his students at this point. If they choose to listen or not to listen to him, that is their choice.
Again, lower belts do not offer unsolicited advice. Not because it is ego trip, but because higher black belts are responsible for themselves for better or worse.

[kenpo tiger]

Hopefully, a black belt's ego is not so big that he cannot bring himself to ask a lower ranking student's advice. True, no black belt knows everything. And there is nothing wrong with a 4th Dan asking a 1st or 2nd Dan for comments about his technique. Also, there is nothing wrong with a Master Instructor asking a lower belt for help with something outside of class. Our Grandmaster has asked for advice on non-Tae Kwon Do matters many times, because he admits freely that, especially concerning how we do things in America, sometimes he doesn't know the best way.
However, it is my job as Instructor to teach my students the best way I know how. Once they make black belt, although they are still and always will be my students, they are responsible for their own technique. Even our Grandmaster has adopted an almost hands off approach to his students at this point. If they choose to listen or not to listen to him, that is their choice.
Again, lower belts do not offer unsolicited advice. Not because it is ego trip, but because higher black belts are responsible for themselves for better or worse.
Mich,
Yes, at a traditional school, that may be true. Again, since we all train in different arts, the culture will be different from school to school. And, since the school is the reflection of the master...

I hope you read HardheadJarhead's post since he owns a tkd school (along with a pot pourri of other good martial arts) and that is comparing apples to apples. Also, to invoke your traditional viewpoint, he is a Sambomnim and, therefore, worth listening to. [You could look it up]

Point is, and I've also said this, it's all how you perceive yourself. If you're secure in your training, if you understand where some of the (perceived) criticism is coming from, it shouldn't bother you at all. It's an opportunity to teach and sometimes to learn. :asian: KT

[Ping898]

I have no problems offering my opinion or thoughts to anyone. But at least in the context of dealing with a higher belt or even equal rank, I am more likely to ask why are they doing something a certain way if it is different than the way I know. I figure there is a good chance they know something I don't know and that they are not necessarily doing it wrong, though this only applies to techniques and kata. If someone asks for my input I will also give it but in the context of this is how I thought it is was to be done. I have learned through teaching that you can teach 5 people the same kata the exact same way and do it over and over and over all looking the same as you and when they go off on their own to practise you end up with 5 different variations. I figure I am no different than anyone else and thus apply my own variations to what I am taught something without realizing it sometimes.

In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that.

[kenpo tiger]

Ping said: "In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that."

No, I'm not following you around (lol!) :) Seems like we respond to the same threads.

I agree with you on the above. That's important feedback that anyone should be happy to be given. Often one drops one's hands and isn't aware of it -- until you take one to the face. KT

[pete]

Ping said: "In sparring I have no problems telling someone if they keep dropping their guard when they throw a kick or something like that."
better to show than tell...

[mj-hi-yah]

better to show than tell...OK you, as long as it's not with a punch in the stomach during an in the ring celebration....:)

[kenpo tiger]

MJ, Now who would do something like that??!! Love ya! KT

[Sarah]

I don’t feel like I am in the position to give advice to seniors seeing that I am only a Yellow Belt Green Tip.

I have had some seniors ask me to watch what they are doing and tell them if they are dropping the Knee on the kick etc etc, which is fine.

If I was sparring a senior and they were dropping there guard, a tap in the head is all that needs to be done, that say's it all. Not that I have ever been in that situation.

I do give a lot of advice to my own class, as I seem to be able to take in technical information well. I think it may be different if I was a Blue Belt and saw a Red Belt doing something wrong, I would feel ok about mentioning something.

[kenpo tiger]

Last night in class, four of us were working techniques together - three brown belts and a black belt. There was, as always, some - er - divergent opinions as to how the footwork should be done in one particular tech. We worked it on each other trying both ways, all the time discussing the pros and cons, and finally called the Master over. Turns out, the way the tech is written is the way three of us were doing it, and the other way was acceptable as an adaptation in a given situation. The black belt never felt that we were questioning him or attacking him or being disrespectful of his rank. Rather, there was give and take, and that's how one learns. No room for ego - and no call for it. :asian: KT

[Pittbull]

I only give advice to senior students when I see something that is wrong and I'm sure it's wrong.Also for instance I'm in a Kenpo school but we do alot of grappling too and I'm ask by the senior instuctor often if something is right even though I hold no rank in a grappling style and his reason for this is I do alot of reading about grappling styles and also practice some of the things I read.

[karatekid1975]

At my first school, I would help higher ranks all the time. Just before I joined, my old association changed the one steps. When I started, I took to martial arts like a duck to water, and I learned very quickly. I learned some one-steps well past my rank (a form or two also :D ). A couple of black belts were getting ready to test and they still didn't have all the new one steps down. They would ask me to help. I didn't mind.

In my TKD school, if we catch something, we politely say something. Depending on who is the higher rank, we joke about the mistake LOL. No one ever has a problem with it (that I know of, that is). Same thing happened at this school, too. They changed the curriculum, and I am picking it up quickly, so a lot of high ranks ask me for help.

The only time I ever had a problem with it is when I visited my TSD school in June. I'm allowed to train there when ever I visit still (for free :D ). Anyway, I wear my old TSD blue belt when I train there. I was talking to one kid that said I should wear my TKD belt. I said no, cause I didn't earn it there. Then when we were practicing forms, this little punk (I'm not saying that to be mean, he really was) was trying to correct me. I wanted to say that, "YOU are doing that wrong, not me, and I've been training a hell of a lot longer. Buzz off."

If it was a valid correction and he was polite about it, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. But when a lower rank tries to "correct" someone with an attitude, it's won't go over well. Other than that, I don't mind getting feedback from lower ranks. They might catch something that I didn't notice before.

[Pale Rider]

I remember working out with a different Tang Soo Do school's students. We met at one of their parent's house to have a "semi-class" as their main school had been shut down. A 2nd gup invited me knowing that I was a Dan in TSD, just not in his organization. I went along with my girlfriend's daughter who was also a 2nd gup in that same organization as the young man who invited me.

After we got there and into our dobahks, he politely asked me since I was the highest one ranking one there if I wanted to conduct class. I told him that I was honored that even tho I wasn't in his organization that he respected me enough to ask. I insisted that since they were both 2nd Gup's and I was a "visiting" Dan, that we just go "round-robin" and each of us contributed and lead class. We would learn from each other. I believe that went over well, and not any of us had a problem with that. In fact I learned something different from that young man.

In fact later on during class, one of that particular school's Master came in. I didn't know who he was at first until one of the 2nd gups told me. I quickly bowed to him and asked if he wanted to take over class since he was the highest ranking there. He bowed back and politely told me to continue what I was doing. That all he would do is offer assistance - I thanked him and we continued.

No matter what there were respect all around. I liked that and enjoyed that class.

[pete]

There was, as always, some - er - divergent opinions as to how the footwork should be done in one particular tech... Turns out, the way the tech is written is the way three of us were doing it, and the other way was acceptable as an adaptation in a given situation.

or vice-verse! how a tech is written is dependant on who has the pen, and
when its written.

variations in footwork, stances, targets, etc often are made to adjust for the body type, agility, and intent of the defender in relation to that of the attacker. in the case of KT's example, and since i was there i can comment, both methods were in keeping with principles and equally effective.

sometimes a decision has to be made relative to power vs speed vs stability which can lead to differences even amoung ma-ist learning from the same instructor. the beauty of an art built on principles is in the individual's adaptation.

pete.

[kenpo tiger]

or vice-verse! how a tech is written is dependant on who has the pen, and
when its written.

variations in footwork, stances, targets, etc often are made to adjust for the body type, agility, and intent of the defender in relation to that of the attacker. in the case of KT's example, and since i was there i can comment, both methods were in keeping with principles and equally effective.

sometimes a decision has to be made relative to power vs speed vs stability which can lead to differences even amoung ma-ist learning from the same instructor. the beauty of an art built on principles is in the individual's adaptation.

pete.
Point here is that no one in the group stood on ceremony because one is a bb and the others, while of the same rank, have differing time in in kenpo. Probably because we're in a small school and we are, for the most part, friends through our training (some from the neighborhood, too.)

Ego should not stand in the way of learning, in my opinion. KT

[pete]

Probably because we're in a small school and we are, for the most part, friends through our training (some from the neighborhood, too.)

or, maybe because we are encouraged to question, work things through, and find why and how things work...
or, because we don't have a universal as-written description that would make one "right", and conversely, one "wrong"...
or, maybe that we are just open minded and able to admit to ourselves we have more to learn by experimenting than by rejecting what may be different...

and friendship doesn't hurt either!

pete

[kenpo tiger]

Pete,

True.
True.
True, and
True!
KT

[gmunoz]

Can't say for sure. Right now I'm a sponge to my sensei. However, I think one may want to pose their concern in form of a question so as to not appear disrespectful. I think "the way" (whatever way that may be) needs to always be challenged to ensure it is still "the way." However in asking one may surprised that those with more experience will usually be better qualified and correct me on the issue. For that reason I would pose my concern as a question to not get blasted with too much embarrassment.

[Lisa]

or, maybe because we are encouraged to question, work things through, and find why and how things work...
or, because we don't have a universal as-written description that would make one "right", and conversely, one "wrong"...
or, maybe that we are just open minded and able to admit to ourselves we have more to learn by experimenting than by rejecting what may be different...

and friendship doesn't hurt either!

pete
I like your post pete, sounds like we train in very similar schools.

[Insedia_Cantharis]

I voted that I have my own eyes and mind, but then, most schools arent like ours, and I'm aware of that.our school doesn't use rank, so the only ranked person is the instructor. And many people put up their "What if's" .

To be honest, it shouldn't matter, as long as you are sure about the advice you are giving. If it helps, why would anyone care?

[Andrew Green]

so the only ranked person is the instructor.

I am Not, and don't you go around telling people I am :p

[phlaw]

I (Red Belt) have given tips etc... to some Black Belts on occasion and they usually take it very well, knowing I have actually been there many years longer than them and have trained in different styles.

[jaymo]

i don't because at my old school we weren't allowed to do that--it was disrespectful. at my new school it's a little different, everyone is more relaxed and wants to help each other. i've had plenty of feedback from lower ranking belts, but to this day i personally will NOT say anything to a higher belt unless i'm asked, and that has never happened.

[Adept]

I ticked the 'Never unless they ask for it' box. I will offer advice not whenever I think it is needed, but whenever I think it will be well recieved. A lot of people take any kind of criticism as a put-down or a personal attack, especially if it from someone perceived as their inferior in something.

If offering advice, or correcting a technique is going to garner ill will, then I just leave it alone. If I know it will be taken well, then I will offer it.

[pakua]

There's an old saying along the lines of You don't have to be a carpenter to recognise a wobbly table.

Anyone might be able to recognise a fault in someone's work- especially when one's new, one is perhaps more aware of the basics because that's all one knows.... Motorists of long standing have who knows how many bad habits which a learner driver might notice because the learner's being drilled on exactly those techniques which the other has a bad habit in. A senior MA-ist might have lost sight of some simple things- posture etc maybe- that a noobie might notice.

In an adult educational setting, there is supposed to be an atmosphere of mutual learning and help. Of course, the trick is to figure out how to help without being seen as a smartass.

And anyhow, since I'm an 83rd Dan in Pac-Man-Do from Dans-R-Us-Dojo, you'all had better pay attention.

[Sin]

My sensei is unstoppable in the dojo, can do anything. Now outside of the dojo he is forgetfull and naive. that is where I and I few others step in. We'll give him advice on advertisement and th logistics of running a school. (Tuition, uniforms, weapions, patches, youth classes, etc)

he way I look at it, its more of a team effort and its not all up to the sensei to do the teaching, because the true artist never stops learning.

[mj_lover]

as long as it is give respectfully, and you have experiance in the area I don't feel there is a problem. As long as you are willing to acept critisism (sp?) i feel you should be able to assist others (even of a higher rank, within reason white/yellow, orange/green, etc)

[Blooming Lotus]

To be honest, it shouldn't matter, as long as you are sure about the advice you are giving. If it helps, why would anyone care?Because ppl have a need to save face and preserve dignity. If I really respected a person, I would wait until they asked for the feedback, or would usually at max try to spark a line of conversation that would get them to ask a question I could answer with the advice I wanted to give them.

For example my secuirty instructor is about 10 yrs older than I am and has a huge amount of hard core experience, skill and similar intellect and psychology. He calls himself grumpy smurf though I can see ( besides the new shape his head has taken on) that he's sincerely pissed and likely feels quite helpless to control what he intimately sees daily go on in society, like the rampant drub abuse scenario, when many offenders are the same age as his 14 yr old daughter, or perfectly nice / lawabiding ppl when not under the influence.
I see it in the guys eyes and as a result of his helpness he's suffers personally. I have studied varied branches of behavioural science myself and I would love to give him a perspective on it and advise him to meditate his grief out, but unless I could braoch the topic it gently having him interact openly in an exchange, .......I wouldn't do it. And same applies to any one else I respect. ( like my fat friends and being better off keeping my nutritional lectures to myself ....) Give it a shot if you like, but
no one likes dogma, so procede with care.

Blooming Lotus