What is a teacher's job

[Martial Tucker]

The question is: Other than teaching the techniques specific to an art, what is the job of a teacher in terms of instilling martial values/ethics/responsiblity in a student?

Assuming you are dealing with an adult student who presumably already has an established set of values and ethics, should a good martial arts teacher attempt to "shape" those pre-existing attitudes into something appropriate for the "martial knowledge" they are going to be learning, or is it unrealistic to expect to have much of an "attitude impact" when dealing with an adult?

I know my teacher speaks often of "martial values" and tradition and responsiblity, but it is more as if he is stating his opinion than trying to actively change attitudes in his class. He does that in another way: Anyone who comes in to our and school acts in a manner inconsistent with the martial values/responsiblity that our teacher espouses is sent packing rather quickly.
In other words, our teacher considers himself more of a "gatekeeper" than an
"attitude shaper".

I'm curious what other people's teachers do in this area, and what you think he/she should do?

[The Boar Man]

I think with adults you can be an example of the right martial attitude/values/ethics etc. etc. but you can't shape them. Maybe in the far east but I don't think in the western nations.

There might be a different attitude towards the students there and from the students towards the instructors. Here the student (IMHO) (in the U.S.A.) is wanting a need fullfilled so they attend class to meet that need. If you don't meet the perconceived need because you are trying to shape them then they will walk out the door and go somewhere else.

The longer the students stay with you the more likely you might have a chance to affect their lives in a positive manner/way and have a chance to shape or mold them.

I know my karate instructor did to us his private students. But for some it took many many years. For my students I tend to be more of a gate keeper per say than changing anyone.

Mark

[TigerWoman]

Same for my school. The instructor/master has his keys to success (his) and tenets of TKD up on the wall. Everyone is expected to know them, recite them and then know what they mean. Lately, he has also added a 1-2-3 page paper depending on your age upon a moral value for each test. I have seen him suspend or not give rank, take away rank to students when there is a issue like respect, self control, humility. Some have not come back. My instructor also espouses Christian values, like forgiveness. As a 47 year old joining his school, did he influence me? Did he change my values + or - . No, I don't think so.

But because of this position of teacher, if you teach humility, respect, forgiveness, integrity, self control, then you better follow that thin line and be the person you expect others to be or at least be able to have the humility to regain respect if you slip. No one is perfect, no teacher is perfect. But it is on him/her to lead by example if he wants the respect to be given to him. I think my teacher is a gate keeper lst, a Christian converter 2nd and an "character" shaper 3rd. He failed on the last. TW

[mj-hi-yah]

My instructor is a wonderful person. I don't think that he consciously attempts to change values in his students, but he is a man who lives by example. Definitely not a "do as I say not as I do kind of person." The head instructor sets the tone for behavior in a school, and my instructor always remains respectful even when there have been those who might challenge him. He really teaches by example. The way he lives his life and the way he treats people is always with great dignity. He works to build confidence in his students and he does not allow the business aspect of running his school to be foremost. He is very descent that way, and as a result has many students who are dedicated in their training.

MJ :asian:

[kenpo tiger]

Agreed, MJ. He is definitely a decent person and an all-round nice guy. Would give you the shirt off his back. And, he is 100% approachable, no matter what may be going on in his personal life (and we usually have an idea of what that is!) Seriously, after training in schools with poor excuses for human beings (but great martial artists skill-wise), it's nice to know that if you cut this guy, he [might] bleed [if exposed to kryptonite.]

The kids especially love him, and you can't fool kids.

[Rob Broad]

Lead by example, follow by choice.

If the instructor is leading by setting the example, then people will follow by their own volition.

[pete]

Lead by example, follow by choice.

.... and always from a safe distance!

objects in rear view mirror may appear closer than they are...

pete

[mj-hi-yah]

The kids especially love him, and you can't fool kids.They do, and that is sooo true - you can't fool them! :)

[MichiganTKD]

Speaking as a traditional Tae Kwon Do instructor, it is my belief that an instructor's job is similar to that of a father: guide his students' progress not just in class but through life. My Instructor has taken an active interest in all of our lives, from coming to class, to making sure we finish school, to making sure we get good jobs, to making sure our lives are honorable. Not providing us with good jobs or education (although he has provided jobs for some students in his various businesses), but pushing us to better ourselves and make sure our own students turn out right. For this I and we owe him a gratitude we will never be able to repay. Many of us came from less than desirable home lives. Our Grandmaster provided us with the parental role model that a lot of us didn't get when we were younger. And I try to do the same thing with my students. My job and responsibility is to work to make sure that, as students they work hard and try. As citizens they lead honorable lives and try to better themselves. This is not an easy job to assume or carry out. It takes patience and commitment.

[Phoenix44]

Lead by example, follow by choice.
Yeah. I think you've got to walk your talk. Also, if you're serious about the spirituality and morality of the martial arts, then exposing your students to appropriate teachings would be helpful, too. People may be interested, but not know where to look. You can show them.

[Feisty Mouse]

My instructor is a wonderful person. I don't think that he consciously attempts to change values in his students, but he is a man who lives by example. Definitely not a "do as I say not as I do kind of person." The head instructor sets the tone for behavior in a school, and my instructor always remains respectful even when there have been those who might challenge him. He really teaches by example. The way he lives his life and the way he treats people is always with great dignity. He works to build confidence in his students and he does not allow the business aspect of running his school to be foremost. He is very descent that way, and as a result has many students who are dedicated in their training.

I've said it before, I'll say it again... Wordy McWord. (lol)

This sounds like both my former instructor in Hapkido years ago, and the general attitude of some of the instructors I've worked with. Personally, because I can occasionally dig my heels in and be contrary when I feel that someone is trying to SHOVE me where they want me, the "lead by example" works very well.

In general, I don't think an instructor should try to impose a specific morality or set of rules on his or her students. I do think general rules, like respect, self-control, kindness, hard work - those are all important. But if my instructor started prostelytizing, I'd be... not receptive, to say the least.

[TigerWoman]

I've said it before, I'll say it again... Wordy McWord. (lol)

This sounds like both my former instructor in Hapkido years ago, and the general attitude of some of the instructors I've worked with. Personally, because I can occasionally dig my heels in and be contrary when I feel that someone is trying to SHOVE me where they want me, the "lead by example" works very well.

In general, I don't think an instructor should try to impose a specific morality or set of rules on his or her students. I do think general rules, like respect, self-control, kindness, hard work - those are all important. But if my instructor started prostelytizing, I'd be... not receptive, to say the least.

Ditto that. My instructor is late for class and says he was proseletyzing!!! My instructor is on record for saying no instructor shall teach for him unless he is a Christian. My instructor says TKD is secondary to proseletyzing. TW

[Feisty Mouse]

TigerWoman - wow. I would...not deal with that well. I'd probably be very childish and bait him on theological debates. lol. I wouldn't last long in that environment!

[kenpo tiger]

I doubt I would train with someone who was always trying to convert me.

Just teach me martial arts. Stay out of my personal life, thank you.

[pete]

Just teach me martial arts. Stay out of my personal life.

FINALLY!!!! i'm so excited i used uppercase for about the third time in my life!

that's all he/she is expected to do... be a a kuh-roddy instructa. not a role model, not a priest, not a life mentor, not a father, mother, sister, brother... stay outta my personal life, and by all means keep me out of yours... there is a thing called too much information.

my wife and i will parent our kids, and if i need professional help i'll seek a professional... don't want a plumber touchin' the circuit breakers.

not that some good ol' fashioned friendship wouldn't be nice, but wouldn't that go for everyone we pass through this life with...neighbors, cousins, coaches, teammates, bosses, co-workers, teachers, students, the guy sitting next to you on the bus...

rock on kenpo tiger~

pete.

[Andrew Green]

Same as a coach for any other sport...

Although perhaps we should require better sportsmanship as that seems to be lacking in so many sports nowadays...

[bdparsons]

The question is: Other than teaching the techniques specific to an art, what is the job of a teacher in terms of instilling martial values/ethics/responsiblity in a student?

I think your mixing oil and water here. Ethics and responsibility are taught; values are developed, shaped, or reinforced from what you are taught.

A martial arts instructor has an obligation to teach eithcs and responsibility to students to help them to realize the accountability that goes along with what they are learning. This is where the line is drawn between teaching "sport" and teaching a method of self-defense. If self-defense is being taught then teaching these things is is a reflection of how the instructor is held accountable.

It really comes down to a distinction of whether studying the martial arts is something you "DO" or whether a martial artist is something you "ARE".


Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

[Phoenix44]

Bill makes a very good point. We aren't teaching and learning basketweaving. We're teaching something which can be used for good or extreme evil, and I agree that we should be teaching and modeling the responsibility and respect that go along with it.

Also, many parents start their children in the martial arts specifically for this type of teaching and behavior.

But neither would I tolerate proselytizing.

[kenpo tiger]

FINALLY!!!! i'm so excited i used uppercase for about the third time in my life!

that's all he/she is expected to do... be a a kuh-roddy instructa. not a role model, not a priest, not a life mentor, not a father, mother, sister, brother... stay outta my personal life, and by all means keep me out of yours... there is a thing called too much information.

rock on kenpo tiger~

pete.
Thank you, my brother. We've talked about this many times. (Miss your nifty avatar. Aw, c'mon. Put it back.) KT

[The Boar Man]

Ditto that. My instructor is late for class and says he was proseletyzing!!! My instructor is on record for saying no instructor shall teach for him unless he is a Christian. My instructor says TKD is secondary to proseletyzing. TW

I would disagree with this "TKD is secondary to proseletyzing" if he is teaching TKD and the students are paying for it.

As a christian, I came up in my instructor's dojo and he was/is a christian as well, in fact several of the students all turned out to be believers. Now I can look back and see that GOD led me to him as an instructor and that HE led all of us to our instructor. However our instructor didn't preach to us or convert us through TKD rather the few individuals (maybe 1 or 2 that I know of) that did come to saving faith at the dojo did so because of the relationship that our instructor had built with them over the years. He walked the walk and talked the talk but he didn't preach, he prayed for us and kept in contact with us when some like myself moved off, he supprted us when we needed moral support or guidence etc. etc. This made the people at the dojo all closer than our families for many of us.

When I started teaching at the YMCA I asked the head of the TKD Association (I was with) who is also a christian about proclaiming my faith. He told me that this was dangerous in the sense that you don't want to get into hero whorship and have someone proclaim Christ because of the instructor (ultimately leading in false assurance). And that if you are teaching TKD than teach TKD, you can proclaim or state you faith but that shouldn't be the main thrust of your class.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

TW

I forgot one other point I wanted to bring out in the previous post I quoted.

I do think it is your instructor's right to choose whomever he wants to teach. If he only wants a fellow Christian that's his business, his right. As a consumer you have the right to choose which school you attend, you can withhold your funds if you don't like who he chooses or his policies or his business descisions.

It's his business, his class, he can run it the way he feels. However if he is selling his instruction in TKD and you as the consumer pay for instruction and he spends his class time proseletyzing and not teaching the product he has taken your money for than I disagree with that.

Mark

[kenpo tiger]

Someone PLEASE tell me what religion has to do with martial arts?!

No way I would stay in a school like that. The way I believe is my personal choice. The person who told you not to proclaim your faith in your martial arts school was right. That's why you go to your church.

I'd worry about the terror threat we're under at the moment, not this.

[TigerWoman]

I'm a Christian so I don't have a problem with him proseletyzing on his own time. But I don't like it when he "weeds out" people that aren't, gets on their case after class, makes comments about what a nice "jew" cap for a girl wearing some new scarf thing. He didn't know that the father WAS a jew because the girl is blond. He turns people off and out the door. Seems his first question to anybody is "where do you go to church?" He asks questions about the bible in class. I stopped answering any of those during my workout time. I just say no comment. Not that I wouldn't discuss it, it just is not an appropriate time and neither is it before or after class. But now a mother has told me that he told her that he only hires Christians to teach his classes. I got that picture a long time ago. Whatever...I don't like the guy anymore for a lot more than that. TW

[The Boar Man]

I'm a Christian so I don't have a problem with him proseletyzing on his own time. But I don't like it when he "weeds out" people that aren't, gets on their case after class, makes comments about what a nice "jew" cap for a girl wearing some new scarf thing. He didn't know that the father WAS a jew because the girl is blond. He turns people off and out the door. Seems his first question to anybody is "where do you go to church?" He asks questions about the bible in class. I stopped answering any of those during my workout time. I just say no comment. Not that I wouldn't discuss it, it just is not an appropriate time and neither is it before or after class. But now a mother has told me that he told her that he only hires Christians to teach his classes. I got that picture a long time ago. Whatever...I don't like the guy anymore for a lot more than that. TW

Sounds like the guy is reaping what he has sowed. Is he teaching at a church or something his martial arts class? If so, than again he might be using the class to spread his faith and if you know that going into the class than that's one thing, however if he's doing this in a normal class setting where people of different faiths, beliefs, etc. etc. are coming for martial arts instruction (and paying for that instruction) than I realy think he is out of line.

Once again you have the right not to attend and to seek instruction elsewhere. However since you mentioned that you are a Christian then you might take a different tract. Pray about it first and then maybe you could explain the problem to your pastor or someone else of mature faith and they could help you with certain verses (points of view etc. etc.) that might allow you to go to the instructor and talk to him. Something might get accomplished this way without you having to leave the school (if you haven't already (I thought I read somewhere you had?). This is a much harder way to go cause it is hard to confront someone like this "but all things are possible...."

If you want to go the route of talking to the guy and want any input please PM me, I don't want to take up bandwith with soemthing that should be handled offline.

Mark

[The Boar Man]

Someone PLEASE tell me what religion has to do with martial arts?!

No way I would stay in a school like that. The way I believe is my personal choice. The person who told you not to proclaim your faith in your martial arts school was right. That's why you go to your church.

I'd worry about the terror threat we're under at the moment, not this.

Actually religion has alot to do with the martial arts.

Take Aikido. Usheiba sensei changed his teachings (or the manner in which he wouold teach the jujitsu/aikijujitsu systems that he knew) and created Aikido as a manner in which to proclaim or teach his religious view point. This was after having a mystical experience with a golden light or something on a hill. (I'd have to do some more research to give you the specifics but that's what I can remember.) Some karate styles make Zen Buddhism (sorry for incorrect spelling) a part of their teaching etc. etc. Tahiboxing in Thailand has a religous element to it as well (I'll provide documentation if you want on these.)

Churches and such have TKD/karate/self defense type classes sometimes as a way for spreading their faith or getting people interested in going to thier church. Sometimes it's the opposite that parents might want little Johnny or Suzy to take TKD but they don't want their kids to be exposed to outside religious teachings so they find a instructor (Christian or otherwise) that believes the same way they do and take their son or daughter there.

Martial Arts are important to serious students, for some of us it is one of the most important things in our lives, next to God and family. And if the truth be know even that gets sometimes out of wack (as my wife constantly reminds me :rolleyes: ) ). Now if your religious belief is supposed to be the most important thing in your life (we'll leave family out of this example to make it easy) and the martial arts come a pretty close second than wouldn't you blend the two. I mean you want to see everyone you come in contact with believe as you believe in the validity of the martial arts, this style is better than that style because.... so come join our class. And you develop class friends and you care about your students etc. etc. so why wouldn't you care enough about them to show them the way (religiously) to the thing that is (suppossed to be) the most important thing in your life.

IS this the right thing to do? I believe it depends on the setting and the circumstances. At my instructors dojo it was a private dojo that he taught out of his house and it was free of charge. If he wanted to spend the whole time preaching to us and trying to convert us than that was his right and if we didn't like it than we could leave. He didn't do anything of the sort, we practiced karate and fought :) . However if I'm paying for lessons for my son or daughter or myself and the instructors want to teach us the koans of Zen or the parables of Jesus Christ or whatever and I think I'm paying for the martial arts than that is a problem. It's not the right time.

As to me proclaiming my faith during the class that I taught at the YMCA, I don't remeber how it came up or in what context I asked the question to the head instructor. However I knew from the example my karate instructor had shown me that I was not going to make a teaching session/class etc. etc. about my religous beliefs in any shape or form, I was hired to teach TKD not my faith. Why I mentioned this was because I was trying to add weight to my point about it being the wrong thing to do for KT's instructor to be doing this.

For every thing there is a time and a place. respectfully submitted.
Mark

[kenpo tiger]

Okay Mark. I knew that you or someone else would come back with an answer similar to the one you posted.

I would also like to thank TigerWoman for her input.

I live in New York. The way things are looked at vis-a-vis religious/ethnic differences is apparently far different than what happens in the midwest and other portions of the country. New York City is a vast melting pot of every imaginable type of person - and we all pray and work and play together. No one asks how or why you do what you do (i.e., what religion you are or even which political party you belong to!) It is accepted that everyone is different and has their own way of doing things. It's culture shock to hear that it makes such a difference to so many people out there whether one is Christian. Assuming I found it cogent to do so, would it make a difference to tell you what religion I practice? What my politics are? Nope. All we have in common is martial arts - and even then, we don't have that in common because our ma careers are divergent.

My instructor and the majority of my classmates are products of Catholic school education, and I know this only because it has come up in casual conversation and has no bearing on our martial arts training. Then there are those, like me, who went to public school. Further - I lived in a fully-integrated town. Did it make a difference to me whether someone was African-American (back then Black), Hispanic (back then referred to as Puerto Ricans), Asian (back then Oriental), Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Moslem, Buddhist, Shinto - whatever? No, and it still doesn't. Why SHOULD it matter? And, why do you feel that we're all fodder for your teachings and that the way we think/believe is wrong? None of us feel that way about you. Wasn't Christ attributed to having said "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"?

It is NOT, in my opinion, a teacher's job to impose his personal thoughts and beliefs on his students. As I said, I'd be gone.

[Brother John]

Hey Tucker-
Interesting topic. You might want to go to the philosophical section of Martial Talk to get more ideas on this. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=85

what is the job of a teacher in terms of instilling martial values/ethics/responsiblity in a student?
I don't know if 'instill' is the best word for it. A teacher can have ethical standards and present a very powerful example and thereby influence on his students...but it's still up to them to rise his Sensei's example/expectations. The one thing that I don't put up with long is apathy. Basic rule #1: If you don't want it....get out of our way.
Of course having clearly stated rules and 'codes of conduct' would help in making the expectations clear. It's much like raising a child, you can't decide who your kids are going to be...you exert your influence, you give example, you punish/reward the demonstrable behaviors...and pray.

it is more as if he is stating his opinion than trying to actively change attitudes in his class.
Our 'opinion' is our belief system...a set of principles and standards that we 'believe in' and try to pass along to our students. If it's Sensei's "opinion" then it means that he takes them seriously/personally.
Something to think about.
Your Brother
John

[The Boar Man]

Okay Mark. I knew that you or someone else would come back with an answer similar to the one you posted.

I would also like to thank TigerWoman for her input.

I live in New York. The way things are looked at vis-a-vis religious/ethnic differences is apparently far different than what happens in the midwest and other portions of the country. New York City is a vast melting pot of every imaginable type of person - and we all pray and work and play together. No one asks how or why you do what you do (i.e., what religion you are or even which political party you belong to!) It is accepted that everyone is different and has their own way of doing things. It's culture shock to hear that it makes such a difference to so many people out there whether one is Christian. Assuming I found it cogent to do so, would it make a difference to tell you what religion I practice? What my politics are? Nope. All we have in common is martial arts - and even then, we don't have that in common because our ma careers are divergent.

My instructor and the majority of my classmates are products of Catholic school education, and I know this only because it has come up in casual conversation and has no bearing on our martial arts training. Then there are those, like me, who went to public school. Further - I lived in a fully-integrated town. Did it make a difference to me whether someone was African-American (back then Black), Hispanic (back then referred to as Puerto Ricans), Asian (back then Oriental), Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Hindu, Moslem, Buddhist, Shinto - whatever? No, and it still doesn't. Why SHOULD it matter? And, why do you feel that we're all fodder for your teachings and that the way we think/believe is wrong? None of us feel that way about you. Wasn't Christ attributed to having said "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you"?

It is NOT, in my opinion, a teacher's job to impose his personal thoughts and beliefs on his students. As I said, I'd be gone.

KT

I'm sorry if I offended you, I meant no offense. I was trying to address your question that you asked "Would someone PLEASE tell me what religion has to do with the martial arts?!"

I answered that actually religion has a lot to do with the martial arts and gave some examples and offered to back it up to prove my position. But really I thought that it was outside of the scope of this thread. Repeatly I have tried to say that I do think that Tiger woman's instructor is wrong in proseltyzing instead of teaching. While I didn't bring up the points that you did about different races, ethnic groups, religions etc. etc. being in class I understand your points and I agree with them. It doesn't matter to me what race, sex, or religion/belief system a person has if I'm supposed to be teaching the martial arts.

This matter of religion in a person's martial arts training is very complex. I get hit from Christians for teaching/practicing the martial arts and how that is wrong. As well as not compromising my religious beliefs by putting the martial arts before God and my family. If you don't think this is a struggle than I ask you seriously how many martial artists/instructors etc. etc. get divorced or have karate widows sitting at home etc. etc. I even ran across the term karate widow in "Roaring Silence" a book written about an instructor's studies of karate in England in the 70-80's (he mentioned this in reference with his own divorce). It's a common term among martial artists so it's a problem. enough of that though.

Tiger woman stated in her post that she is a believer a "Christian" and I gave her some advice on how to deal with her problem with her instructor. Basically she can not go there (which I think she has) or she can confront and talk to the guy. I fully support her belief that the instructor is in the wrong, however if she wanted to talk to the guy about the situation than I offered if she wanted to correspond with her off line, again so as not to hijack the thread on this topic. Besides it is a private matter. In my job I was a union steward and I've had to talk to "believers" whose work ethics sometimes run this same way and it would anger other people, so I would get drawn into it as a steward. It's not an easy thing to do to confront people like this. But again that is beyond the scope of this thread.

Lastly once again I don't think of you or anyone else as fodder. Again if this is what you got from my previous post or this one I apoligize.

respectfully submitted
Mark Lynn

[kenpo tiger]

Mark,

Obviously this is a sore subject. Having trained with instructors who are gifted martial artists and the poorest excuses for human beings imaginable in terms of their moral/ethical compasses, it's one of my 'hot' buttons when pushed. I trained at a McDojo which is assembly-line karate - everyone looks the same and does everything exactly the same way, otherwise they don't advance. You have to fit the mold, or you're gone (hence, my short stay with them because I don't take orders well:rolleyes: - only direction.)

I think it's exemplary that you are so very serious about your religious beliefs. But - as I state above - they are YOUR beliefs and should not be imposed upon those who are your martial arts students. That there are those who will not employ instructors unless they share the same religious beliefs is abhorrent as far as I'm concerned. That's manipulating something which should be taken on faith alone, not forcefully imposed upon "innocents" (non-believers). The same way you would not go around prostelytizing at your place of business, assuming it's not your own, you should not do so at a place where people come to relax and have fun - yes! some people do martial arts for fun (I have yet to meet any but so I'm told.:) ) KT:samurai:

[Feisty Mouse]

I would like to briefly add another comment to one of the discussions here:

If my instructor is a Christian, and I am a Christian (or if my instructor is Muslim, and I am Muslim) we may still disagree on a number of religious beliefs, and it may cause great animosity. Even by looking for members of one broad religious type, an instructor can still offend students and be in disagreement with them over religious beliefs.
Another reason why I think it is entirely inappropriate.

[TigerWoman]

I actually agree with both of you, you really aren' t that far apart. My sore spot with my instructor like KT is not for the reason that he is a Christian. He used to just impart Christian values, not really all that Christian: to be honest, to forgive, to have integrity, respect for others, parents and authority, courtesy, etc. But as his group of Christians in class grew he became more bold in teaching from the Bible, his views. He is not exactly very knowledgeable to preach, but presents himself that way. You can't argue any point with him and ever win. So I have turned off. (and left, although I may go back since that is the only game in town and others want me back). So I think martial arts goes along with Christian values just fine without obvious or even subtle proseletizing. IMO, it shouldn't be part of the curriculum and ultimately exclude those that are of different beliefs. (I noticed the Muslims have left-he was once one). I can understand also that Christian families DO seek him out to teach their children now so he is getting the group that he wants. But as a Christian, I think you should be the leader, walk the walk, and show others what it is like to be a Christian not "weed out" those of different faiths. I think he is actually counterproductive to being a Christian doing this. Certainly has left a bad taste in my mouth and its not persay about proseletyzing but about walking the walk. TW

[kenpo tiger]

TW,

If that is the focus of his school, so be it. I would not, however, want to be his student and suddenly have to share his religious beliefs. If I knew going in that he is the way he is, then it's my choice to be there.

As to your predicament, may I suggest that perhaps you could toy with the idea of opening your own dojang? You are certainly qualified to teach at your level and with your years of experience. Just a thought. KT

[Feisty Mouse]

(and an intriguing thought at that!)

[TigerWoman]

KT, Yes, you are right. I don't think any non-Christian would want to be in his school. So he would be preaching to the choir if thats what he wants.

About opening a school. I have a contract which says I can't. At least within a radius of 30 miiles. Another possibility in town, a 2nd dan from his former grandmaster, is teaching at a local company for their employees right now. He wants to open a school...but I still can't teach here. TW

[kenpo tiger]

TW,

I've never heard of that, but now I understand your predicament. I think you should talk to the other second dan and, at the very least, train with him. He probably can't promote you (actually, if you aren't second dan yet he could, couldn't he?), but you'd be training, and that's important. KT

[The Boar Man]

TW,

I've never heard of that, but now I understand your predicament. I think you should talk to the other second dan and, at the very least, train with him. He probably can't promote you (actually, if you aren't second dan yet he could, couldn't he?), but you'd be training, and that's important. KT

KT

I believe TW is held by a non compete clause that was probably part of some contract she signed when learning or attending the other school. These are pretty standard so that if a person of high rank comes into your school and works out or even works for you than they can't open a school within X amount of miles to compete with you and possibly steal away your students. This is generally for a period of time after you leave the school (I've heard like 5 years but I could be wrong)

TW
I agree with KT on this, why don't you talk to the 2nd dan and train with them, personally I wouldn't worry about the testing or promotion rather just rain and learn from someone different. If you can't work out with him then maybe go back to the other guy.

Is it that you can't teach for the guy (the 2nd dan) or open a school? Reason I ask is that I'd check with lawyer on this bit about not teaching. I can see how you shouldn't open a school but if someone else has the school and you teach I don't know if they can enforce that. However it might hinge on wether you are paid or not. Be that as it may it might be unenforceable anyway if your not directly competing with the guy. If you really want to teach than I would check with a lawyer on this non compete clause (if that is waht it is).

Mark

[The Boar Man]

I actually agree with both of you, you really aren' t that far apart. My sore spot with my instructor like KT is not for the reason that he is a Christian. He used to just impart Christian values, not really all that Christian: to be honest, to forgive, to have integrity, respect for others, parents and authority, courtesy, etc. But as his group of Christians in class grew he became more bold in teaching from the Bible, his views. He is not exactly very knowledgeable to preach, but presents himself that way. You can't argue any point with him and ever win. So I have turned off. (and left, although I may go back since that is the only game in town and others want me back). So I think martial arts goes along with Christian values just fine without obvious or even subtle proseletizing. IMO, it shouldn't be part of the curriculum and ultimately exclude those that are of different beliefs. (I noticed the Muslims have left-he was once one). I can understand also that Christian families DO seek him out to teach their children now so he is getting the group that he wants. But as a Christian, I think you should be the leader, walk the walk, and show others what it is like to be a Christian not "weed out" those of different faiths. I think he is actually counterproductive to being a Christian doing this. Certainly has left a bad taste in my mouth and its not persay about proseletyzing but about walking the walk. TW

TW

I can understand how your situation would be discouraging in this case. And I think he is in the wrong here. I'll PM you.

Mark

[Brother John]

No offense meant toward anyone
But
it'd be really nice to see this thread get back on subject.

Food for thought:
One can impart/influence the ethics and morals, values and standards of others and it have absolutely nothing to do with religion.

Your Brother
John

[loki09789]

A teacher has a lot of 'things' that have to be taken addressed within the scope of his/her 'job.'

I went through this teachers training model called Frameworks which breaks teaching down into four major categories or domains:

1. Planning and preparation
2.Classroom
3.Instruction
4.Professional responsibilities: (reflecting on teaching, records, interaction with families/faculty/administration/community, GROWING PROFESSIONALLY, contributing to the school district - peer/student advisement, curriculum, PTA contributions....)

Of course this is primarily designed for school topic teachers but it isn't that far a stretch to translate this to fit Martial arts teaching.

1. Planning and Prep - essentially the same goals: What do you want them to get within a class, month, belt rank.... and how do you intend to do to make sure they 'get it'

2. Classroom/floor - well organized, well managed, safe and cooperative learning envirornment.

3. Instruction - Do you know the material and how to teach it?

4. Basically for a Martial Arts instructor this could translate to constantly seeking personal and martial arts/instructor skill improvement to be a good example to your students, try to be proactive in the community to show that Martial arts is about civic participation, Maintain good records/assessments to be used as tools for student improvement by targeting specific needs AND to figure out what you can do better the next time as an Instructor.

A teacher's job is to have a philosophical goal/mission that drives them and inspires them to teach, to try and live up to that goal themselves as a role model, to promote good conduct and personal responsibility in themselves and students, and to constantly seek ways to improve themselves so they can be better for their students.

That way everybody wins and 'diversity' is respected because everyone is there for a common purpose regardless of religious, race, credo differences. Focusing on moral "themes" of respect and cooperation avoids all the dirty detail bickering of 'my values are right and yours are wrong.'

[kenpo tiger]

A teacher has a lot of 'things' that have to be taken addressed within the scope of his/her 'job.'

I went through this teachers training model called Frameworks which breaks teaching down into four major categories or domains:

1. Planning and preparation
2.Classroom
3.Instruction
4.Professional responsibilities: (reflecting on teaching, records, interaction with families/faculty/administration/community, GROWING PROFESSIONALLY, contributing to the school district - peer/student advisement, curriculum, PTA contributions....)

Of course this is primarily designed for school topic teachers but it isn't that far a stretch to translate this to fit Martial arts teaching.

1. Planning and Prep - essentially the same goals: What do you want them to get within a class, month, belt rank.... and how do you intend to do to make sure they 'get it'

2. Classroom/floor - well organized, well managed, safe and cooperative learning envirornment.

3. Instruction - Do you know the material and how to teach it?

4. Basically for a Martial Arts instructor this could translate to constantly seeking personal and martial arts/instructor skill improvement to be a good example to your students, try to be proactive in the community to show that Martial arts is about civic participation, Maintain good records/assessments to be used as tools for student improvement by targeting specific needs AND to figure out what you can do better the next time as an Instructor.

A teacher's job is to have a philosophical goal/mission that drives them and inspires them to teach, to try and live up to that goal themselves as a role model, to promote good conduct and personal responsibility in themselves and students, and to constantly seek ways to improve themselves so they can be better for their students.

That way everybody wins and 'diversity' is respected because everyone is there for a common purpose regardless of religious, race, credo differences. Focusing on moral "themes" of respect and cooperation avoids all the dirty detail bickering of 'my values are right and yours are wrong.'
Paul,
The concept of civic participation by a ma instructor is an interesting one. I've seen some who interpret this as giving demos all over the place, which, in my opinion, is really self-serving in that it's hoped that people see the demo, think it's cool for their kids and sign up. Another interpretation is doing outreach programs, like the self defense classes given by a lot of schools. Still another is participating by conducting a fund raising event for a charity like a local child with cancer. So, what is civic duty? Is it all of the above or just some. I've been in schools where the walls are covered with citations and certificates of appreciation because the master and the school are incredibly active in the community. That impresses me, because it shows that the master and, by extension, his school, are truly part of the community. Again, the cynics in the audience will say it's all part of promoting the school, and it is. But it's positive, and usually (but not always) a bellwether of the attitude prevalent in the school. KT

[loki09789]

Paul,
The concept of civic participation by a ma instructor is an interesting one. I've seen some who interpret this as giving demos all over the place, which, in my opinion, is really self-serving in that it's hoped that people see the demo, think it's cool for their kids and sign up. Another interpretation is doing outreach programs, like the self defense classes given by a lot of schools. Still another is participating by conducting a fund raising event for a charity like a local child with cancer. So, what is civic duty? Is it all of the above or just some. I've been in schools where the walls are covered with citations and certificates of appreciation because the master and the school are incredibly active in the community. That impresses me, because it shows that the master and, by extension, his school, are truly part of the community. Again, the cynics in the audience will say it's all part of promoting the school, and it is. But it's positive, and usually (but not always) a bellwether of the attitude prevalent in the school. KT
I know what you mean with the abuse of 'civic participation' of school owners. Around here, if you open any school district adult ed/community ed schedule you will have two or three instructors providing a 'service' when they are actually promoting their school. I, admittedly, have run free women's self defense seminars that were multi-purpose in motives....

When I mentioned civic participation what I was referring to was things like walk-a-thons, Ride for a cure, Toys for Tots and such. I envisioned the instructor getting a group of students together to participate in the event as a 'living example' or 'application of the moral/credo of the school and wearing maybe the school t-shirt to identifiy them as a group (like companies will do when they have employees participate in charity events). Toys for Tots is a USMC reserve toy collection drive that any instructor/school owner could participate in simply by having the collection barrel in his building.

Things like this are tough because they require a lot of time and administrative (read boring/thankless) planning on the instructors part but the rewards are priceless. Students get to feel that sense of "espirit de corps" because they share a unique experience associated to their martial arts group, the event gets more participation, the school might end up with positive exposure.... but the PURPOSE of it within the Frameworks domain idea is that the instructor/teacher is making sure that he/she is an active/contributing participant in the community as a whole person, not just a teacher.

[kenpo tiger]

I know what you mean with the abuse of 'civic participation' of school owners. Around here, if you open any school district adult ed/community ed schedule you will have two or three instructors providing a 'service' when they are actually promoting their school. I, admittedly, have run free women's self defense seminars that were multi-purpose in motives....

When I mentioned civic participation what I was referring to was things like walk-a-thons, Ride for a cure, Toys for Tots and such. I envisioned the instructor getting a group of students together to participate in the event as a 'living example' or 'application of the moral/credo of the school and wearing maybe the school t-shirt to identifiy them as a group (like companies will do when they have employees participate in charity events). Toys for Tots is a USMC reserve toy collection drive that any instructor/school owner could participate in simply by having the collection barrel in his building.

Things like this are tough because they require a lot of time and administrative (read boring/thankless) planning on the instructors part but the rewards are priceless. Students get to feel that sense of "espirit de corps" because they share a unique experience associated to their martial arts group, the event gets more participation, the school might end up with positive exposure.... but the PURPOSE of it within the Frameworks domain idea is that the instructor/teacher is making sure that he/she is an active/contributing participant in the community as a whole person, not just a teacher.
You don't have to sell me on the concept of giving to charity. I'm a professional fund raiser/event planner for a non-profit organiztion. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and I try to get people involved whenever I can. I completely agree with your take on it being "thankless" (read: boring paperwork), but you are also correct in pointing out some low/no maintenance projects like Toys for Tots. Our school has done a toy drive around Christmas for a local church - also canned goods for the food pantry.

My two former schools both participate in our town's Fall Festival (one at my instigation), which gives them exposure to the public. I know most schools do that sort of demo thing at fairs and in the schools. My instructor goes to the classes of our juniors to give a free 'class' with some safety tips included. He's also been a "special person" for some of the kids in the elementary school here. That is a day when the child invites someone, usually a grandparent, to school. KT

[loki09789]

You don't have to sell me on the concept of giving to charity. I'm a professional fund raiser/event planner for a non-profit organiztion. This is a topic near and dear to my heart, and I try to get people involved whenever I can. I completely agree with your take on it being "thankless" (read: boring paperwork), but you are also correct in pointing out some low/no maintenance projects like Toys for Tots. Our school has done a toy drive around Christmas for a local church - also canned goods for the food pantry.

My two former schools both participate in our town's Fall Festival (one at my instigation), which gives them exposure to the public. I know most schools do that sort of demo thing at fairs and in the schools. My instructor goes to the classes of our juniors to give a free 'class' with some safety tips included. He's also been a "special person" for some of the kids in the elementary school here. That is a day when the child invites someone, usually a grandparent, to school. KT
Cool, though unappreciated job KT. Any pointers for the uninitiated on how to avoid some of the pitfalls/frustrations of event organization, whether fund raiser, seminar, competition? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't feel that this is hijacking of the thread as long as it is only a few posts because part of a teacher's job description is running/organizing these types of events.

[kenpo tiger]

Cool, though unappreciated job KT. Any pointers for the uninitiated on how to avoid some of the pitfalls/frustrations of event organization, whether fund raiser, seminar, competition? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don't feel that this is hijacking of the thread as long as it is only a few posts because part of a teacher's job description is running/organizing these types of events.
Okay Paul - Here's the deal. I'll send you a pm so we aren't accused of being in cahoots. Then I'll (or you'll) post what you feel is relevant. Give me a little time to collect my thoughts - life intrudes!

And, you're correct. It is mostly unappreciated, but I enjoy being one of the guys in the white hats. KT

[Martial Tucker]

I know what you mean with the abuse of 'civic participation' of school owners. Around here, if you open any school district adult ed/community ed schedule you will have two or three instructors providing a 'service' when they are actually promoting their school. I, admittedly, have run free women's self defense seminars that were multi-purpose in motives....

When I mentioned civic participation what I was referring to was things like walk-a-thons, Ride for a cure, Toys for Tots and such. I envisioned the instructor getting a group of students together to participate in the event as a 'living example' or 'application of the moral/credo of the school and wearing maybe the school t-shirt to identifiy them as a group (like companies will do when they have employees participate in charity events). Toys for Tots is a USMC reserve toy collection drive that any instructor/school owner could participate in simply by having the collection barrel in his building.

Things like this are tough because they require a lot of time and administrative (read boring/thankless) planning on the instructors part but the rewards are priceless. Students get to feel that sense of "espirit de corps" because they share a unique experience associated to their martial arts group, the event gets more participation, the school might end up with positive exposure.... but the PURPOSE of it within the Frameworks domain idea is that the instructor/teacher is making sure that he/she is an active/contributing participant in the community as a whole person, not just a teacher.I agree with this completely, and it annoys the hell out of me when I see some schools in my area putting on demos in the name of "civic participation" that accomplish little other than publicizing the school. Civic "participation" implies "service", which most of us know means to contribute effort without expectation of personal benefit.
Our school master has promoted charity drives and volunteering for such things as nursing homes, meals-on-wheels, soup kitchens, etc. But you are right that it takes a lot of time. As such, as a student in our school approaches BB level, it is expected that he or she is demonstratably active in community service. Traditionally, a BB in a martial art implies a committment to a "warrior" lifestyle, or mentality which certainly does not just mean being prepared to fight. Much more importantly, it implies a readiness to help the less fortunate in your community and to get involved to try to make your community a better place to live, and hopefully, even inspire others to do the same. Almost anyone, in time, can learn the techniques required to pass a black belt test. But I say there is much more to being a black belt than that.

[Nightingale]

Martial arts is a tool.

Like any teacher, a martial arts teacher has the responsibility to teach not only how to use the tool, but when the tool is and is not appropriate for the situation.

[MichiganTKD]

Martial arts philosophy is not that different from philosophy used in religion:
1. Love other students and fellow humans
2. Respect parents and seniors
3. Be a person of integrity and trust
4. Use mercy in applying MA techniques
5. Practice humility

There is a difference between advocating moral principles in martial arts practice and advocating religion. Moral principles guide us in being the right kind of people in life and not misusing this awesome weapon we turn ourselves into. It may or may not involve religion. More making the right decisions.
Religion involves more who/what is God and our relationship with this Force. This is a deeply personal issue with most people. I do not advocate using martial arts as a vehicle for promoting religious expression or teaching, because peoples' religious attitudes are formed outside class and probably have lttle to do with practice.
However, Instructors have a responsibility to teach moral structure, knowing that morality in martial arts is not going to differ too much from religious morality. But that line should not be crossed.
Religion is something people must decide for themselves. An Instructor who preaches religion to students is being awfully presumptuous and not allowing his students to make their own choices. Much like an Instructor who tells students how to vote.
Several of our Senior Instructors are devout conservative Christians. As far as I know, they have NEVER used Tae Kwon Do as a means of promoting religious values. It is not their place to do that. They only teach moral obligations as TKD Instructors-how students are expected to behave as Tae Kwon Do students.
I have had Christian, Muslim, and Jewish students. Simultaneously at times. There has never been a conflict because I have never taught Tae Kwon Do as religion or preached a certain religious viewpoint. I have taught certain moral standards, like the ones listed above.