Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?

in shotokan the form is refered to as tekki. nihanchi is from tang soo do.

i guess this point could be said about also alot of forms. these forms are basically defending from frontal attacks. it is said that you should imagine yourself on a boat and it is rocking back and forth. to keep your balance you move in the oppisite direction that the boat is tipping.

i personally like the nihanchi forms. they are very powerful and devote also of thier success to the kiba dachi or "horse stance".

i have seen different variations from shotokan to tang soo do, and also issin ryu which added a kick among other techniques.

Originally posted by Shinzu

in shotokan the form is refered to as tekki. nihanchi is from tang soo do.


Just nitpicking, but Naihanchi is actually the Okinawan name. :)

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Just nitpicking, but Naihanchi is actually the Okinawan name. :)

Cthulhu

thanx for the info :)

I learned it as Naihanchi in Isshin-ryu.

I read after posting that it was originally one form that was broken down into three because it was too long and complicated. So, my question was exactly backwards!

i never realized i was one form. it does make sence though. i dont feel it would be too complicated. i have seen others that are far more complex i feel.

I have learned a version of Naihanchi, that is very similar to Shotokans Tekki, is this the entire kata. I have heard of Naihanchi shodan, nidan and sandan, but I haven't seen them. Is the total of them any different to Tekki?

--Dave

:confused: :confused:

i'm not famliar with any system that combines all three katas to make one.

as far as i know, they have always been seperate.

the naihanchi kata and the tekki kata do have some differences depending on which style you are taking. TSD and shotokan are almost exact, while isshin-ryu's are different.

Didn't they do something similar with Kusanku (Kanku Dai) made more katas from it, or maybe the other way around, "they" = Shotokan

Michael

http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I have learned a version of Naihanchi, that is very similar to Shotokans Tekki, is this the entire kata. I have heard of Naihanchi shodan, nidan and sandan, but I haven't seen them. Is the total of them any different to Tekki?

--Dave


Naihanchi was the original Okinawan name of the kata. I believe it was Funakoshi who changed the name to Tekki. For the most part, same dang thing.

Cthulhu

the name still means the same. iron horse or night on horseback.

there are some variations between the TSD, shotokan, and the isshin-ryu naihanchi kata though.

The naihanchi kata was well known in the shuri and tomari schools. This was before the pinan katas were formed. This may explain why there are 3 katas. The kata was mainly a beginner's kata. It was not used to develop offensive and defensive fighting skills. The main purpose of the kata is to train the waist and legs through slow steady sideward movements for maximum strength. We called the kata kibadachi, or ("horse riding straddle") in matsumura seito shorin-ryu karate-do! After the pinan katas were introduced into the system, naihanchi became more of an intermediate form. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

naihanchi kata was actually called "ni bo jin" in the beginning.

Originally posted by Chiduce

The naihanchi kata was well known in the shuri and tomari schools. This was before the pinan katas were formed. This may explain why there are 3 katas. The kata was mainly a beginner's kata. It was not used to develop offensive and defensive fighting skills. The main purpose of the kata is to train the waist and legs through slow steady sideward movements for maximum strength. We called the kata kibadachi, or ("horse riding straddle") in matsumura seito shorin-ryu karate-do! After the pinan katas were introduced into the system, naihanchi became more of an intermediate form. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

That's interesting. We actually use it as a Pressure Point Kata. Every technique in the kata has been used in a self defense technique. It's funny how most times you don't even realise what is right in front of you until someone points it out.

--Dave
:asian:

i never thought about that. thanx dave :)

No worries! Funny isn't it, I mention pressure points in relation to Naihanchi, and tonight I attended a seminar with Kyoshi Patrick McCarthy, in which he spoke of some of the pressure point applications from Naihanchi and even showed us some that we hadn't seen before. I've said before in other forums that I don't like his books, but I would recommend his seminars to anybody.
:asian:
--Dave
:asian:

The 3 naihanchi katas are extremely different when you look at them from a technique point of view.
To say "why don't we just put them all together and make one kata" is not practical.
If that is the case then why don't we lump all the kata together and a make one long kata??
Because each kata has distinct trademarks not always recognizable to the untrained eye.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I've said before in other forums that I don't like his books, but I would recommend his seminars to anybody.
:asian:
--Dave
:asian:


Really? I am kind of the other way around.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Really? I am kind of the other way around.
Is that because you find him arrogant? I have heard some people describe him this way, but I find him to be a real fun guy to be around. It may be because he frequents our school quite a bit. Come on share your thoughts.

--Dave




:asian:

I think McCarthy's wife did a god job translating some interesting books on Karate and some of it's more noted historical figures.
Some of those books would not have been available to most western readers had it not been for her translating and his editing.
None of them are of any great training value but from a historical point of view they are interesting.


I have seen his seminars first hand.......sorry, not interested.

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. Are you sure it was his wife that did the translating? It is my understanding that he spent a lot of time studying in Japan himself and that his wife is Italian.
I could be wrong, it has been known to happen.;)


--Dave

His wife is Japanese, infact I knew Pat and his wife, Yuriko, while they were in Japan and I can assure you she did the translations

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. ........
--Dave


To be honest, I have met many people that feel the same way as me.

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Naihanchi was the original Okinawan name of the kata. I believe it was Funakoshi who changed the name to Tekki. For the most part, same dang thing.

Cthulhu

Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.

Originally posted by arnisador

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.


The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.

Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed. Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school. The pinan kata's became the beginner or kids kata's. Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l I feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate. Some of the above info I got from the book Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.

Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".



Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school.

There is actually another thread on this somewhere around here.


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate.
Bob :asian:

Agreed.

Itosu was the first person to actually try and successfully open karate up into the mainstream of society by introducing it into the schools systems of Okinawa.

Funakoshi, whom I rather dislike, tended to "extend the truth" about himself and his importance.

Yes, most people think he's the greatest teacher there was. In fact there where a ton more that's probably better then he was. I also agree with you on learning 1 or 2 kata's. My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

Which book was this again?
Do you know the name of it?

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:


I have read that book. My teacher wrote it back in 1998.
The photo on the cover is a tattooed hand.
Sometimes woman in Okinawa used to tattoo their hands for religious reason and sometimes to ward off evil.
This practice is rarely if ever done so that woman is most likely very old.

As for the practice of doing kata before a duel I don't remember my teacher ever writing anything about that.
I know he did write about studying other peoples movements which you mentioned and it is called Rok-kan, and about studying their skill which is called Ken-kyu.

The website you mentioned belongs to a friend of mine named Mike Minor.
There is another good book you can order from there called "Ryukyu Kempo: History and Basics" written by Kyoshi Jim Logue.
Very good book.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.

--Dave:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.


Agreed. Learning from the Internet is just as impossible as learning from a book.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.
--Dave:asian:

I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all. I am equally biased toward my instructor, but he doesn't have any videos available. As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative. As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter? And if it does, then who told you who it was that knows more?

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture. We are all on the same path, some just take a different path. It doesn't matter who is right... only who is left.

RESPECT
--Dave:asian:

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.


How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb

If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

Sorry, I should have checked your profile before I answered, then I would have known that you train at a Dillman School.

--Dave

:asian:

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

Perhaps not, but certainly more than Mr. Dillman, since RyuShiKan's teacher is the man Mr. Dillman claims taught him kyushojutsu in the first place...

So who is more competent? Mr. Dillman, or the guy that Mr. Dillman alleges taught him kyushojutsu?

That having been said, I have had the opportunity to train with adherents of Mr. Dillman's methods, RyuShiKan, and my own teacher (we do vital point striking as well, though since we are a Chinese system we use the English translations of the Chinese acupuncture names - in Chinese they are not referred to as Stomach 9, Gall Bladder 394, etc.).

I can say that I find it amusing that while Mr. Dillman alleges his training with Taika Oyata is the origin of his knowledge, his methods and the methods of those who continue to train under Taika Oyata are completely different. There are no multiple strike "set ups," just instant pain and incapacitation. My teacher's methods have similar effect.

And an interesting cultural note...

I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not.

Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously. Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...

Where is your teacher from, by the way? I'm guessing not Japan... No offense intended. :asian:

:samurai: :samurai:

Thanks for the training tonight, RyuShiKan. Good stuff. Time for Tiger Balm... :D

Originally posted by D.Cobb



I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

I don't ever recall saying he did.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative.

I actually based my opinion on being a licensed TCM practitioner, what they have published, videos I have seen of them, and seeing them in "action" firsthand.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter?


If you like you can search other Martial BBoards/ On Line Magazines for extensive amounts of information on the dubious backgrounds as related to kyusho for Dillman, DSI/Moneymaker, Clark.

Well actually it does matter.
Do you study with the person has only studied 10 months or the or that has studied 10 years.
Let's look at it this way:
My teacher studies these arts for what is going on 60 years.
Dillman trains ever so briefly attending a few seminars and what not with my teacher then departs
and teaches Moneymaker/ Clark and some others who in turn depart Dillman after brief study.



Originally posted by D.Cobb

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture.

No, it is not. My opinion is actually based on facts that I have mentioned.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

We are all on the same path, some just take a different path.



Again this is incorrect. Dillman/DSI and their ilk have gone wild and seem to be on a different path.
Just as an example, I can't ever recall my teacher propagating these ridiculous "no touch knock outs" like some of the above mentioned.

Originally posted by D.Cobb



How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?


Is there a difference between the regular Chinese names and Dim mak names?
Basically what is wrong with using acupuncture names is the points are so small and difficult to find when someone is standing still that there is no way you could possibly find them on a moving person that is uncooperative and wanting to do you harm.


Secondly, atemi and kyusho strikes are for the most part not based on acupuncture points but general areas.
Take the "whack" to the neck that cause unconsciousness.
There are no less that 8 acupuncture points there, all fairly small, about the size of an eraser on a pencil, and very close together. My hand is pretty average size and if I hold my hand up to someone's neck I cover almost all of those points.
Question: If I whack someone on the neck and knock them out which one did I hit?
Answer: Probably all of them.

Question: Which "acupuncture point" caused him to be knocked out?
Answer: None of them. That technique is commonly misrepresented as working on a acupuncture point, ki flow, time of day and a whole host of other gobbldy guck, but in reality what happens is no different than being hit in the head and being knocked out like any other blow to the head.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.
--Dave

Sure.
Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time.

I have found that the folks that "only" talk about kyusho don't really know a whole lot about it.
Kind of like sex.........the ones that are talking about it the most are getting it.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously.

Kimonos indicated the status as to whether a woman is married or not.
Long sleeve bottoms indicated single, short sleeve bottoms indicate married.



Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...


Tattoos in Japan have a long history and at one point long ago were outlawed as was smoking. (should have kept the smoking law)
Recently the younger generation seems to be more tolerant of tattoos.

However, Okinawa was a different country up until recently and has had among other cultures strong Polynesian influences.
Tattoos in Okinawan were, from what I have been told and read, used for spiritual reasons, to ward off evil and sometimes even illness.

First of all my instructor study with Seiyu Oyata, and he also talks about when Dillman was there. He doesn't have anything good to say about Dillman. One of my good martial arts friends has now joined Dillman's group. He has had a couple seminars with DKI. At one of the seminars they tried a partical knock out on me. They whack and whack on me. After about 5 or 6 strikes to the side of the neck, I said " what am I suppose to feel". Also at the same seminar one of the guys that had some training in the no touch crap tried it on me. My take on it is they try to hepmotize the individual with the hand. They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there. Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet. I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there.

Key point: "Just standing there"
(No trying to attack just standing..........sounds like a bloody useless technique)


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet.

I have seen that helmet. It used to be hanging in the dojo, it actually has a nice fist size dent in it.


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

Just out of curiosity, can you tell me the name of your teacher (by e-mail is fine)

I started training with RyuShiKan last Saturday, and trained again last night.

For those that say things found in traditional kata are crap, I would encourage you to train with those who have trained under Taika Oyata. It is a real eye opener.

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff... :D

I have to say I wish I had begun training with RyuShiKan way earlier. I have been in a very good kung fu system for the last 16 - 17 years, but this would have made for an additional lifetime of study... Very real, very practical, very easy with some practice... Good stuff. VERY good stuff...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :samurai:

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?
It is the same person. I believe Taika is the name he used back in Okinawan, and Seiyu is the name he goes by here in the U.S. I am sure Ryushikan can give a better reason. But I do know for a fact it is the same person.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff... :D

Just as a qualifying caveat to my earlier post, I am about 5 feet, 8 inches tall and weigh in at about 215 pounds... Been in the Army for the past 10 years, so I'm not an Olympic athlete but I'm no slouch...

One good shot to the right spot, and big or not, down I went. While moving, not standing still, I might add...

Good, good, good stuff...

Gambarimasu

:samurai: :samurai:

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

It is the same person.
Taika is a title similar to "O-sensei" and Seiyu is his first name.

Just as a matter of interest, have you heard of a guy by the name of Dr. Pier Tsui-po. He claims to be well versed in Dim Mak techniques, and I would be interested in the opinion of someone else who appears to know which way is up. Also I am wondering have you heard of Frank Monea, both these guys are from Australia, and when Mr. Monea demonstrates, he will only use a moving target as he claims that a standing target will not show correctly the effects of certain strikes.

Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave


:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave



What I meant was you should study the basic punches/blocks/strikes as well as the kata, and what most folks totally over look is the footwork. If you don't have the right foot work you won't be where you should be when you are striking.

Forget all the triple heater 17, stomach 9, gall bladder whatever.........learn where the body is weak, see what happens when certain areas are struck, which way the body moves an so on.
Which is the best way to strike it, what is the best hand (open or closed or something else) to strike it with and so on.
Push around on yourself and see what feels uncomfortable then use a good friend as a crash dummy.

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

Ok, now I understand that, what about when you talk to the initiated. You know, say someone like your instructor, where you maybe discussing what happens when a certain area is struck in a certain manner, would you then refer to individual points, or would you still talk about a specific area?

The reason I ask this, is because my instructor, very rarely uses the "accu-talk", when instructing juniors, however with seniors, black belt and above, he will quite often use "accu-talk". I was just wondering how you, and yours do it.

--Dave

:asian:

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...

:samurai: :samurai:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...


That is a good idea.
Many of the Chinese names are usefull for treatment purposes.


Mr. Cobb,

I am not saying don't educate yourself on accupuncture termanology or the principles of it. In fact just the opposite, educate yourself as much as possible on eveything.
What I am saying is that the people that use all the "accu-talk" (the "Color by numbers kyusho" version) to describe atemi and kyusho in most cases tend to be yahoos and know very little, if anything, about what they are saying.
Also, many of the atemi and kyusho points are not always used for treatment like accupuncture points are.
The frightening thing is since 99% of the US/Western world knows squat about accupuncture they have no reason not to take the "Yahoo's" word for it.

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

For the most part, I agree with what you say whole heartedly. I also agree, that most "experts" comfirm the theory that "X" is the unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure. :D

I had heard about the pressure point stuff and I wanted to see it first hand. I had seen videos of static demos and wanted to see if it worked for real. The very first KO I saw using kyusho was about 3 years ago and I must say I was impressed but unconvinced. My martial arts base was American Kenpo, where we were taught that to feel is to believe. It wasn't long, however before I had felt enough and dished out enough to be convinced that everything I wanted was in the system of Ryukyu Kempo that I now train in.
I guess the point I am trying to make is to let you know, I am not into fads. If I can't feel it I wont believe it. I was just interested to know how you would refer to specific points. Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

It is funny, because when I started, everything was St9, blah, blah, blah, Gb20, blah, blah, blah, and these days the only time these terms are used is in the black belt classes, and also black belt club. And as you said in a previous post when you hit a certain area you will strike an uncertain number of points, this is how we are taught now.

Sorry for rambling,
--Dave
:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Many points are not used for medical purposes.
Kyusho and atemi strikes are not just meant to KO people.
For example I had a discussion with a "modern stylist" that swore atemi and kyusho were crap and wouldn't work.
I asked him if he ever did mawashigeri to the thigh of his opponent. He said yes it was a common kick.
I said when you kick him just about right "here" he will fall down or his leg will be weakened right. Again he agreed.
So I told him that he was kicking was an atemi area on the leg.
The area I am referring to is can be located by standing at "attention" and placing the hands straight down along the outside of the thigh, the area is located about where the middle finger tip ends. (Fengshi and Zhondu or GB 31 &GB 32 for the color by numbers folks)
Since most people don't have feet the size of a pencil you would be hitting 2 acupuncture points or 1 atemi area.



Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

I don't know, haven't been to every school yet.
I do know of some of the more "famous" people that commonly make mistakes when naming points during seminars and so on.
If you are thinking of a specific school please email me.

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

Depends on the kata.

Some techniques are repeated in a single kata but it doesn't necessarily mean they are the same bunkai.
However, "similar" techniques could possibly be found in more than one kata.

I was taught that similar "codes" in forms referred essentially to the same techniques, though the footwork accompanying the "code" would change the application and possible variations of the technique...

But like RSK said, depending on the form and what techniques/combinations/etc. come before and after the "code" in question, can radically alter what you think you see hidden there...

Gambatte.

:samurai: :samurai:

Hello Everyone....Just got back from vacation and am catching up on the Naihanchi Thread.

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.

Dave,

I would still be interested in your interpretations for Naihanchi....I have a pretty good imagination if you can write them out. I know that there are many applications for each technique, but just trying to start things out.

Thanks all.

dkigirl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.



I am not sure why it is easier to talk about St. 9 or any other point on the neck unless you are hitting with the tip of one finger in the exact spot.
Why not just say "hit them on the neck just below the ear"...........how complicated is that to understand.
Judging from the videos on your website you and the rest of those folks aren't even getting close to St. 9.
(BTW St. 9 is located at the level of the Adams apple on the anterior border of the sternocleidomastoid muscle..............in simple terms on either side of the Adams Apple)

From what I can see on your videos you are "whacking" about five different "points"..............and while the person is standing relatively still I might add.
Try it on someone that is actually trying to attack or at the very least pretends to attack............hell I can teach a monkey how to whack someone on the neck that is standing still and knock them out. :rolleyes:

The whole "color by numbers kyusho" thing is the blind leading the blind.

1. I am not going to ask someone that I know to physically attack me just so I can go full out on my point training and video tape it to show everyone. I want to train with them again and just know how the point works is fine with me. Giving it a light tap works then I know it will work with adrenaline behind it.

2. Since you went out to my website....I think that you need to take a closer look......in NONE of my clips do I even intend to attack ST 9. I don't like using that particular point. I go for TW 17, LI 18, GB 20 and others that I know will work for me.

dkigirl

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

The style I have trained in for the last 16 - 17 years makes extensive use of vital point striking. However, I must admit, that we rarely go "all out" and do focused, directed work at precision striking at "combat speed."

While training with RyuShiKan, I have seen first hand the difference between striking at a point at maybe 1/4 speed, and having to up that twice again...

Definitely more difficult.

Just my devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Kinda like having your little leaguer pitch to you and you hit the crap out of the ball and have Randy Johnson pitch to ya. My 4 year old son can hit points if I stand there and say hit that point and that point. As I said in a earlier in this thread. Oyata was knocking guys out at full speed while they wore kendo gear. Don't see to many DKI people doing that.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

Yiliquan1,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
If you don't train with even a little bit of realism you are wasting your time......but then again if all you are out to do is take peoples money by hosting seminars on "color by numbers kyusho" and walking around talking about "accu-points" that most people are totally unfamiliar with then I guess you don't need to train with even the slightest bit of realism and standing "statue still" is OK.
The really sad part about those videos is that most of the folks weren't even knocked out..........
How do you spot the fakes and wannabees in Kyusho demos????.............they are always doing techniques on some poor slob that is just standing.

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works. Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....not to be bashed around like I am a 4 year old and you the parent. If there is not going to be some reasonable attitude of respect towards fellow martial artists, then I will just leave.

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo. I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

To sum up, theres many ways of training. Find what works best for you and go for it.


-Mod note : Y'all relax a bit huh? Thanks. :)

:asian:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo.

And as long as what is being done is expressly labeled as a demo then everything is fine. When folks train demo-style and believe that their technique will work when someone is coming at them in a significantly more powerful manner, they are misinformed at best...

I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

A) You are right - if things were done "for real" then there would be a lot more deaths (and I remember a few years back that martial arts were commented on as being safer than professional football... go figure!). But we aren't talking about doing things "for real." That should go without saying. What we are talking about is training with a certain degree of realism that approximates what will really happen, and I think everyone will agree that how you train is how you will react.

B) While having a rank amateur coming at you full speed (or nearly so) is a disheartening prospect, as either instructors or senior students it is our mission to train those junior to us... Last night I was working out with a friend's niece. She is a yellow belt in TKD, and needed to work on her stuff for an upcoming test. Since there were no TKD folks available, I agreed to help her workout. Due to the difference in our orientation of training, she had never actually kicked or punched another person before. Last night, she overcame her fear of striking another person, learned about distance and timing as it relates to having a body to strike/strike at, etc. I got tagged with a good number of pretty potent kicks (she has a really sweet sliding side kick that she managed to plant pretty solidly rather regularly!), and my belly is tender this morning... The point? Sometimes we have to let the beginners get some time in hitting us, making mistakes, and sometimes even getting slightly injured, if we are going to allow them to learn for real...

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

And I would agree completely. Taiji is one of the arts I study, and the entire training philosophy behind it is to train slowly to develop the coordination that you will use at full speed... However, unlike a lot of taiji schools I have dealt with, we frequently speed up the techniques to train them at "combat speed."

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

If I used foam padded sticks, only swung them at half power, and never actually tried to make contact, I guarantee that FMA proponents would come crashing down on me for my lack of realistic training...

Hope I'm not kicking a dead horse here...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

Good enough then, but demonstrations of what? That striking certain points produces certain effects? Good, too. That using said striking points can be useful in self defense? Still good. That doing the striking as demonstrated equals adequate self defense training? Not good... :(

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

I can fully understand your concern... I think it was Jigaro Kano that said, when commenting on what bowing is intended to mean to a judoka, "when I bow, I am apologizing for the pain that is about to occur, and acknowledging that it is to our mutual benefit and is not meant to be taken personally." Or something to that effect.

Not too many folks get off on being whacked where whacking causes "come to Jesus" pain... However, when all involved realize that it is to their mutual benefit and development to participate, the fear of having future ukes turn tail and run is reduced significantly... There is the issue of having brand spanking new students hightail it away from your school, and that is a legitimate concern as well for those involved in commercial instruction, but it begs the question: "Do I teach to pass on martial knowledge, or do I teach to put food on my table?" Sometimes the answers are mutually exclusive...

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works.

How do you know it works? Maybe you know "it" works. Not trying to get snippy, but if you have never done it at full or near full speed, you have absolutely no idea whether it will or won't work for you.

Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

Sure, we all know Taika Oyata has done it/can do it. DKI and other people need to do it too, because all we know from Taika Oyata doing it is that he can do it... That doesn't mean that by extension we can, too...

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

I hope I am coming across not as disrespectful, but as debating. There can be, logically, only one right way of doing a thing. There cannot be more than one right way, because then one of them is not 100% right. If training a particular way yields particular results, then that way should be examined for its merits, whatever way that is.

I have studied vital point striking in my "mother" system of Yili for a long time. We have always trained to apply them first at slow speed to develop knowledge of the point, the angle of striking, the relationship of our body to theirs, the timing, etc. But we end up hammering the dog snot out of each other at near full speed to ensure we are able to apply what we know for real.

When I started training with RyuShiKan, it was the same thing. I have never witnessed DKI training firsthand, but if training to strike vital points, or any points for that matter, is never done at near full speed, then the people training are kidding themselves on what they are really capable of. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this premise, since it is the basis of the major arguments against TKD, goofy kung fu schools, non-combative Taiji (and for that matter a lot of allegedly combat oriented Taiji), etc.

Please don't take offense to my comments. I mean them in the spirit of combined support and education.

:asian:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

dkigirl [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

Actually I did hear of one story. Let me first say I don't
take ANYTHING away from those guys, they're hard core to the
bone, no doubt! But this story I heard (can't say I know
for a fact that it's valid, I don't know the guy personally who
told it to me) ... but he said he got to hang with those guys,
and he was the first to get a strike in. It went straight to the
top of his opponent's head, and dented the hell out of his
helmet. This blow would've at LEAST knocked him out in the
real world. But the guy whose head would've been caved in
won the 'fight' ... he got the other guy to tap out. I still do
NOT question the skills validity or authenticity of what they do
... but just thought I'd share .. some do question it, even if
it's just SLIGHTLY.

:asian:

Well, that is just the consequences of trying to not actually kill your opponent... :D

Safety equipment is meant to provide just that... SAFETY.

While I am not a member, nor do I endorse their training, the SCA folks do work on the honor system when they "fight," and blows they know would represent debilitating injury are usually honored and kudos are given to the one that dealt it.

Just one of those things, I guess...

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

Just wondering...

My teacher has KO'd me before (I asked him to, since I had never experienced it before - he thought I was stupid, but indulged me), and I was allowed to recover naturally... No smacking, whacking, crossing of arms or massage needed.

Just wondering...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

This has always seemed like showmanship to me.

I have heard similar stories about the Dog Brothers--they disregard hits that would stop or at least slow down someone.

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

What I mean by that is if you say "this is the strongest punch in the world," then logically all other punches must be weaker. There can't be two strongest punches... then they aren't both the strongest, but of similar strength that may surpass all others. The whole "-est" indicates no others beyond that level...

So if someone says "this method of X is the best," then they imply, literally, that all others are lesser, false, flawed. There cannot be two best ways...

Now.

That isn't to say that you cannot achieve the same result with two different approaches. You can use trapping hands, sticky hands, rolling hands, or push hands to result in the exact same identical trap. Four ways, one result. But that is a whole other comparison, and perhaps that is what DKIGirl was trying to imply...

The Dog Brothers are a...unique...breed (pun intended). The ones who have been fighting with them for a while wear very little protection: fencing mask, batting gloves, elbow pads (not for the opponents' protection, but to keep from tearing their elbows when they hit the fencing mask grill), and maybe knee pads. They started out with heavier protection, but over the years, the armor got lighter and lighter as they searched for more realistic training. Bear in mind, they fight with this minimal protection with rattan sticks of various sizes, bokken, nunchaku, whips, empty-hand, etc.

I would love to train at that level, but I have responsibilities that would be endangered if I got a serious injury.

Gotta love their motto: "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact" (C) :D

Cthulhu

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!


I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique.
Both people were standing still and one of them just whacked the other one.............rather ineffectively too.
I never said they had to be really attacking you..........even if they just moved at 10% speed that would be good but in most of them they aren't even attacking they are just standing doing nothing.
So "demonstrating" on how to smack a person who is not attacking.............pretty useful stuff. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by DKI Girl

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.


I don't see what the problem is......if what you think you are doing will really works then you should be able to do the same technique on them with the same results and without serious injury.........in essence you would be doing the same technique except they would actually be moving.


Originally posted by DKI Girl

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works................... You can already see that it works....

Firstly the kendo helmet comment was inaccurate and the person that made it has his facts jumbled.
Secondly, the stuff I saw on your website doesn't work. It looks like 99% of the other "color by numbers kyusho" crap that I see wanna bees do.

Thirdly, they are ineffective and lack any sense of realism........not to mention footwork, body alignment, speed, distancing etc.




Originally posted by DKI Girl

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....

As Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) said once: "If you wanna play lumber jack you better be able to handle your end of the log"

Originally posted by DKI Girl



Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl
I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what.

The original thread post

Naihanchi.
Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?

Lets get back to the discussion as it was presented and stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined. We all have whatevr knowledge that was given to us by our instructors and our own way of teaching and demonstrating. My way may not be yours but that dose not make any less correct . your way may differ from someone elses but that makes it no less correct or incorrect. lets discuss what the topics are about and keep the "my way is the only way " to a minimum. I dont know about everyone else but I read these threads to get differing views at times.

I recently learned Tekki Shodan (Shotokan); I had learned Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi many years ago. The latter was much higher and had a quicker and higher returning wave kick (the leg flip), but the grappling applications are certainly clearer to me in the Shotokan version.

Seems to me that I learned a TKD form many years ago simular to Tekki Shodan but darned if I can remember what it was. (to many years not doing TKD) Any of the TKD people out there know which form it might have been, or was the instructor doing a form not in TKD (or one that is no longer done)

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Lets get back to the discussion as it was presented and stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined. We all have whatevr knowledge that was given to us by our instructors and our own way of teaching and demonstrating.

The natural flow of the topic took us here.
Why are Naihanchi 1,2,3, different? Why not just mush them all into one kata?
People that understand the bunkai with in those kata know that it doesn't make sense to do so for the mere fact that the techniques are different in each kata.


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined.

I can't help but think this comment is directed at me.
Not once have I ever implied I "knew more than rest of the world combined".
I have, however, stated where and how I came to form an "educated" opinion on certain folks technique.
So if your not interested in it.............don't read and stick to replys that deal with the topic only.


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

My way may not be yours but that dose not make any less correct . your way may differ from someone elses but that makes it no less correct or incorrect. lets discuss what the topics are about and keep the "my way is the only way " to a minimum.


Nobody has said "my way is the only way".
It's people like yourself that make sweeping generalizations that astound me.
There are many different ways, some are correct and some are not.
The one I eluded to was in the "not correct" category.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I dont know about everyone else but I read these threads to get differing views at times.


As do I.
I don't mind different views.......in fact I often encourage my students to ask questions and question what they are learning because only then will they understand it deeper.
However when people propagate absolute uneducated crap about a subject I am slightly familiar with it tends to bug me.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Any of the TKD people out there know which form it might have been, or was the instructor doing a form not in TKD (or one that is no longer done)

This is not the TKD forum..........let's get back to the topic.;)

Originally posted by arnisador

I recently learned Tekki Shodan (Shotokan); I had learned Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi many years ago. The latter was much higher and had a quicker and higher returning wave kick (the leg flip), but the grappling applications are certainly clearer to me in the Shotokan version.

Which grappling applications would those be?
Just curious..........

BTW, kyusho and atemi are very much related to this topic of the Naihanchi kata and it is one of the reasons why there is no need to squash them into one kata.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

Just wondering...





Originally posted by arnisador



This has always seemed like showmanship to me.




It is.
Most of the time you can tell those people aren't even truly KOed........look at some of the body motion........a dead give away.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo. I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts.


Demo's are "controlled semi-realistic situations".
I seen no training value or information value in 2 people standing stone still and pretending to do a technique.
All that does is "wow" the uninitiated folks when they see someone hit the ground.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?


You mean like in a "realistic" situation?

Every art seems to have its share of 'smoke and mirrors' tricks to wow the uneducated. I remember being wowed myself years ago at some myself, before my studies showed me the truth.

My opinion on how a proper demo runs is that it should 'simulate' a real situation, but in a very controled way. This may mean people moving slower than normal, or movements being isolated. For example if showing something fairly complex maybe you drop the footwork to focus on the hand movements.

Personally, I like it when you see it at 'real' speeds, then a slow motion walk thru with explaination. But thats just my preference.

on reality training, my teachers have always started out with the idea of moving slowly in order to learn accuracy and mussle memory, adding speed as you progress. I have also seen where the focus is on speed, with the comment 'accuracy will come with practice'.

:asian:

RyuShiKan,

After this comment from you:


"I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique."


I am pretty sure that I don't really care what you think anymore. I came to this forum to learn new ideas, meet new people and maybe contribute a little myself.


"I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what."


Since you portray yourself as knowing everything there is about kyusho, and you obviously don't care about someone else's opinion, then I will let the "discussion" end here.

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

dkigirl

Ryushikan,
The question I asked of the TKD people is of value to this thread IMO. If there is a form simular to Tekki Sodan with in the TKD systems I wanted there views on it, its application and varriations.
With such imput we could have had a comparison between styles/systems.
Shadow

Originally posted by DKI Girl

RyuShiKan,

After this comment from you:


"I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique."


I am pretty sure that I don't really care what you think anymore. I came to this forum to learn new ideas, meet new people and maybe contribute a little myself.


OK, please tell me which technique the person in the video was defending against...........was it a punch a kick or was it the ever deadly "standing-waiting for a bus" technique.
Must have been the bus one because they sure didn't look as if they weren't punching or kicking anyone.
You obviously are just in it for the "fame and fortune" and those "demo/seminar-dollars".




Originally posted by DKI Girl

"I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what."


Since you portray yourself as knowing everything there is about kyusho, and you obviously don't care about someone else's opinion, then I will let the "discussion" end here.


Again another sweeping generalization. :rolleyes:
Did I say or even portray myself as knowing "everything"? I can't seem to find that bit in my post.
Is it so wrong to support my ideas with credentials to show where I base my opinions............I think not.


I am all for another opinion as long as it is a somewhat "educated".



Originally posted by DKI Girl

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

dkigirl

This statement speaks volumes.
You would rather not discuss it with someone that is trained in TCM because it would shoot holes in your "half-baked" theories about kyusho.



Originally posted by DKI Girl


Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.
dkigirl

Is that how you learned kyusho............via "talking" on the Internet?

First off learning kyusho via the Internet is a waste learning. It is far too complicated to show/explain properly.
There are just too many things like foot work hand motion and so on that cannot be conveyed on the Internet.

Secondly any one that tries to teach kyusho over the Internet is irresponsible and they cheapen the art.
Irresponsible because you never know who is going to read it and what they will do with it.
They may read some of it and then go out and try it...........they may hurt some else, although doubtful for the reasons stated above.
Or they might get hurt themselves. Either way it would be due to some dipstick on the Internet that is trying to show off by posting how much they "know" and by posting mpegs poorly demonstrating "technique".

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Ryushikan,
The question I asked of the TKD people is of value to this thread IMO. If there is a form simular to Tekki Sodan with in the TKD systems I wanted there views on it, its application and varriations.
With such imput we could have had a comparison between styles/systems.
Shadow


Kind of like how the different kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make the 3 Naihanchi kata unique unto them selves but you didn't feel they needed to be discussed here.

This whole thread should be based onthe first and second posts in it .
I have not objected to disecting each I only asked that WE ALL refrain from saying our interpatation is the only one.
If ANYONE has taken this personal Im sorry it was made to more than one person because more than one is involved in the thread. If you feel the hat fits then that is your business I have not named anyone except in my last post.

AT THIS POINT I GO OFF TOPIC
Ryushikan, sir, Your knowledge is vast but but you tend to take everything verry personal. LIghten up Please. This is a Friendly place for us all to express and question. I ask as a member and poster in these threads please do not try to shove your belifes down the throat of others let them have the right to differ with you., we accept your right to differ with us . If you dont like a viedo or a paticular comment It is alright to not comment or to post so as to not belittle the other posters. WE all see things from time to time we do not agree with but most of us do not cut other people down and dissupt the thread by being pompus. You have asked if you present yourslef as knowing everything Sir at times you do
NOW i apologise to those posting and reading this thread for my going off topic and I now remove myself from this thread except for reading it because my knowledge of the forms is not at a level where I know more than has been said already. I truley hope it goes back on topic because it is an interesting thread with a wide varrity of interpatations IMO
Shadow

For those that dont know me no i don't spell well and I have no spell check

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

This whole thread should be based onthe first and second posts in it .

Which was why don't they put all the naihanchi kata into 1 kata right?
The reasons I gave support my opinion why and yet you still think they are off topic.........


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I have not objected to disecting each I only asked that WE ALL refrain from saying our interpatation is the only one.

As far as I have seen on this thread nobody has made such a claim.
There have been claims that some opinions are not correct but I have yet to read one that even suggested "My way is the only way"


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

AT THIS POINT I GO OFF TOPIC
Ryushikan, sir, Your knowledge is vast but but you tend to take everything verry personal. LIghten up Please.


I don't take things personal and so there is no need for me to "lighten up".





Originally posted by tshadowchaser

This is a Friendly place for us all to express and question. I ask as a member and poster in these threads please do not try to shove your belifes down the throat of others let them have the right to differ with you., we accept your right to differ with us.
............ WE all see things from time to time we do not agree with but most of us do not cut other people down and dissupt the thread by being pompus


I am not shoving my beliefs down someone's throat.
Sorry if I base my posts on actually "facts" and events.




Originally posted by tshadowchaser

.....................You have asked if you present yourslef as knowing everything Sir at times you do


Again, sorry if I base my posts on actually "facts" and events.



As I said before. I don't mind "educated" discussions on topics, in fact I encourage it, but when people post absolute garbage I will call them on it. I refuse to sugar coat it and give them a warm fuzzy feeling about themselves when I disagree with someone.
If you don't like it or have a problem with it ................... DON'T READ IT.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

I'v learned some fascinating applications from Mr. Dillman and other DKI instructors--many of them not (principally) involving kyusho at all. I forget the name of the reverend with the Isshin-ryu backround who's with DKI--Chris something?--but he in particular demonstrated some Naihanchi applications with little or no pressure points but just neat stuff.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


Is that how you learned kyusho............via "talking" on the Internet?

I didn't think that that was what she said.


some dipstick on the Internet that is trying to show off by posting how much they "know"

Yes, isn't this annoying?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Kind of like how the different kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make the 3 Naihanchi kata unique unto them selves but you didn't feel they needed to be discussed here.

That isn't waht he said. It had become something of an Oyata vs. Dillman thread. Discussing why the kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make them distinct would be most welcome. Could you elaborate? Simply asserting it isn't very enlightening, but i honestly would be evry interested.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Which grappling applications would those be?
Just curious..........

Please bear in mind that I have had precisely two Shotokan lessons so far. My instructor has mentioned that many of th techniques have grappling applications; so far the only one we've seriously worked is off of the backhand block-elbow-fists at sides after the first cross-over step. It was interpreted as blocking a punch from the outside, using the leg to off-balance the opponent, grabbing the head and elbowing the back of the neck, then throwing the opponent down.

Originally posted by arnisador



That isn't waht he said. It had become something of an Oyata vs. Dillman thread.


It was never an "Oyata Vs Dillman thing" for me.

However, to me it was a trained, licensed professional in TCM Vs someone that has been exposed to (by whom I don't know) a load of nonsense and feels the need to further spread the same manure via the Internet.
Maybe when that same person goes to the Dr. and he tells them they have this or that illness they say "Dr. I think your full of it because I know this guy who isn't an MD but he read Gray's Anatomy and can spout off all this technical lingo that nobody understands and he said your wrong ............."

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.
Is it because I don't suffer Internet fools for very long?
Is it because I support my opinion with fact instead of "oh I just think so......I have no facts to support my opinion or actually training so you should believe me"?
Or maybe it's because if I see BS on the Internet I point it out so other people don't step in it.

Granted I am direct and to the point almost to the point of rudeness......... but not arrogant, ..............there is a difference.




Originally posted by arnisador


Discussing why the kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make them distinct would be most welcome. Could you elaborate? Simply asserting it isn't very enlightening, but I honestly would be every interested.

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.
I paid my dues...........if you REALLY want to know and be able to use what you learn...........you have to pay yours with hard work, effort and perseverance. There is no short cut, there is no other way.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.

Have you considered the possibility that you come across differently in a different medium? Assuming ill-will or confusion on the part of all others is convenient but doesn't lead to much self-examination. I think I'm a reasonable, level-headed person, and I find your posts arrogant. I believe you (and Yiliquan1, who is after all a friend of my friend Mr. Lehmann) that you're not that way in person. Perhaps part of it is how you express yourself in this medium?

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.


Originally posted by arnisador


(Original Post)
Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?...............

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

I guess I have to ask you the same questions because I re-read this forum from page one and couldn't find anything from you that contributed greatly either. In regards to my TCM training don't believe me........I really don't care.


You threw out the original question and that was about it.
And to answer your question: "Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point?" They are only similar in foot work pattern and that is about it. The hand movements in all 3 kata aren't even similar.
As for my lack of contribution to this thread you might want to review the following. These were made before someone else took this thread off on a tangent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.





quote: Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.


Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

Is it clear that that's best? The written and spoken versions of a language usually distinct dialects as writing is, at the least, more formal, and also lacks body language and vocal intonation. A different style of communication might be appropriate for a different medium--it happens all the time.

I agree that you have specifically addressed the thread's subject as your post indicates. I was focused on the pressure points aspect.

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:


There are basically two forms of bunkai, the Ura and Omote.
One is the basic or obvious (not always) bunkai and the other is the more advanced.

I teach the basic versions first and the more advanced version later.........if I know them. Quite often I don't.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

I must agree with RyuShiKan, on this one, however I will say that once you come to understand where he is coming from, you will find he is only being direct and quite forward, with his beliefs.
He is not being arrogant!

Robert, I hope you don't mind me springing to your defense.
:D
--Dave

:asian:

I have known RyuShiKan for a little over a year and a half via the internet, and in person for only a month or two. The thing that most surprised me when we first met (and continues to amaze me) is how similar he and I are in a lot of ways...

Must be that Midwestern upbringing...

See, I am from Omaha, and he is from KC, and we tend to think a lot alike given we are "just down the road" from each other.

For those of you unfamiliar with us Midwesterners (and you can ID us easily because we are the ONLY ones that refer to our part of the country as the Midwest - everyone else calls it the Plains States or the Central region or some such nonsense), you will find after lengthy exposure that we are very hospitable people, friendly to the point of annoyance, and very, very blunt. We call it like we see it, we don't ask if you think it might rain when we walk outside and get drenched - common sense is something we like to feel we have an abundance of, with the emphasis on "common."

We don't endure fools and shiesters easily (plenty of snake oil salesmen found that out the hard way), and if we see a dirty deal going down we aren't afraid to call them out on the spot.

That having been said, arrogance is something we don't countenance easily either - that is one of the pretenses those "city folks" tend to have suitcases full of, and after working a while detassling corn, you tend to lose a lot of self-inflation and earn a lot of home-grown humility.

You will see that RyuShiKan often points out his background and experience as qualifications for his own point of view, moreso than to denigrate the opinions of others (though that may happen as a side effect of the comparison). He is also just as apt to point out that he still has lots to learn.

If folks feel they are being personally attacked, I am sure it wasn't the intention. Having dealt with him for a while, I suspect they would have no reason to doubt the real attack were it to present itself.

If they feel uncomfortable with what he has to say, they can do two things - a) not read what he writes, or b) examine their training objectively, not hang onto it with religious fervor for fear of finding fault with it, and try to go beyond it to something greater than all the methods combined.

Or they can continue to post here and be offended, I guess. Whatever.

I like choice "b" myself, and that is what I do when I compare my training previously to my training with RyuShiKan.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Ah yes, I recognize it--the Iowa song from The Music Man! As a Hoosier (though a native New Yorker) I understand some of it.

I am reminded of another story about another medium: USENET. Here the rules of interaction were simple:

I. Thou shalt not offend.
II. Thou shalt not be easily offended.

It's worth working on both ends of this, I think.

I've been lurking for a while here and one thing continues to amaze me. For a 'Friendly' forum, there sure are a lot of hostile folks.

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

Perhaps that is the way you train sir, and perhaps you honestly do not care whose feelings or spirit you may hurt. Perhaps you are an expert at that which you profess, and a humble man to boot, or perhaps you are just an overbearing git. You style of posting implies the latter.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude? The majority of what you have posted can easily be found in any good reference work, but the personal side of it cannot. Why is it so hard for you to share something without taking a shot at someone else that doesn’t meet your high standards? Not all of us have had the option of training in Japan. While that is a wonderful thing, it does not justify the superior attitude you have displayed.

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

Good Day.

(to the mods, I am sorry my first post is a negative one. But this bloody git has me bloody well ticked off. My apologies)

This is an administrative warning...I've gotten enough complaints about a few individuals in this thread to really annoy me. (and yes, I know no one cares about that fact). This is not directed at any one individual, as there are a few in this thead I've gotten msgs about.

Here's the deal:

MartialTalk is a "Friendly" forum. That means check the attitudes at the door. I don't care if you are just 'blunt', 'intense', 'serious' , etc. If you can not do so, please leave. While I don't ask that you coddle the 'newbies' (as it was put), I do -require- you treat the other members with respect.

If that is too hard for anyone...please leave. Now.

The next person in here thats sporting a condencending, disrespectful or flat out rude attitude is going to find their account suspended. Member or Mod.

Everyone got it? Good.

Now, please continue to explore the various bits in here. I don't pretend to understand much of it, but it has been very informative.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Captain Harlock

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I think everyone present agrees...

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

An interesting story springs to mind in response to this...

When I first joined the Army, I was wide-eyed with awe and impressed by the images presented to me: stern faced drill sergeants, uber-killer infantry sergeants (I was in the infantry when I first joined up), snipers that seemed to melt out of the forest and melt right back in...

Then, after a while, I began to become more educated in the ways of the profession of arms. I learned more about why things were done, not just how, about the mentality behind training, operations, etc. I grew up.

Now, after 14 years of service, I have an entirely different perspective of the Army. While I love my Army dearly, and have dedicated the largest portion of my adult life to its service, I can see clearly now what I did not see before, and I have become jaded and cynical about what is in front of me. These 14 years of service have scarred my mindset, my family and my soul. I have lost friends and been rejected by family for my service. I see children given guns who have no business being out from behind mommy's apron just yet. I see veterans who have lost their drive and sit around, contributing little, waiting for the day they can file for retirement...

So if I were critical of my Army, would you call me a "self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line," or would you see that I am perhaps a person with enough experience to know better than that wide-eyed new private from 14 years ago?

How does this equate with martial arts?

If you were a senior member of a school/style/association that had a member who took it upon him/her self to go out and promote his own take on things, without the support or permission of the person in charge of said school/style/association, and whose personal take on things was erroneous at best (and false or fraudulent at worst), would you not feel a certain compelling drive to educate those who are young and ignorant of the pitfalls of martial training? Or would you be content to allow them to fall victim to frauds and charlatains, waiting until they had been suitably victimized before you offered your help?

In this instance, I do not refer to anything relating to RyuShiKan's background or organization, but actually my own. Our school had an instructor that began teaching things outside of our system and claiming it came from within our instruction; providing instruction in a manner that did little to develop the student, but instead intentionally hampered their development to insure ongoing tuition income. Should I sit back and allow those who may have been taken in by this person to continue on ignorant of the truth, or should I do what is right (whether they like me for it or not) and inform them of the real situation?

That is my take on how RyuShiKan and others here and elsewhere approach what they do. They are educated in the arts, they have experience within their respective style and with things outside of it, and when they come upon someone relatively new in MA who has been preyed upon by someone presenting sow's ears as silk purses, they feel an obligation to correct the errors they take as reality.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

No, in fact, RyuShiKan is very patient and explains at length the answers to any questions that are asked. He does so in a very casual and friendly manner. I train with him, and he has yet to be anything but calm and joking when confronted by my ineptitude.

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

As do yours, good "sir." Though you couch your comments in pleasantries and courtesy, the acid still eats its way through your words. You appear to be well read, and one capable of writing quite eloquently, but you do little to disguise your true intentions.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude?

I don't presume to speak for RyuShiKan, but from my own experience (16+ years of training, 11+ of teaching), when you are right, you are right, and after a while it becomes difficult to be tolerant of those who hang onto their own ignorance so religiously. There are those who were previous students of our system's rogue instructor who, when presented with the truth and the overwhelming evidence of their ignorance, instead followed said instructor rather than accept the fact that their efforts and money had been wasted. There are many in MA like that. I have yet to lose completely my ability to be patient with that kind of student, but I have little expectation for that patience to continue for many more years...

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

No, but they remain in ignorance, wide-eyed and open to manipulation by those who lie in wait for just such an opportunity to meander by. It was really easy as a young private to be highly motivated about all that I did, all that I was exposed to, until later when I found out the real reasons (or lack thereof) behind things. At that point it became harder to remain fluffy and cuddly about the things I had experienced, and in order to educate the young soldiers whose lives were being influenced and impacted by those things, sometimes I had to be firm to the point of being rude. But they learned. Or they didn't.

Sometimes when the light of day shines on things that have lain hidden for a long time, wha