Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?

in shotokan the form is refered to as tekki. nihanchi is from tang soo do.

i guess this point could be said about also alot of forms. these forms are basically defending from frontal attacks. it is said that you should imagine yourself on a boat and it is rocking back and forth. to keep your balance you move in the oppisite direction that the boat is tipping.

i personally like the nihanchi forms. they are very powerful and devote also of thier success to the kiba dachi or "horse stance".

i have seen different variations from shotokan to tang soo do, and also issin ryu which added a kick among other techniques.

Originally posted by Shinzu

in shotokan the form is refered to as tekki. nihanchi is from tang soo do.


Just nitpicking, but Naihanchi is actually the Okinawan name. :)

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Just nitpicking, but Naihanchi is actually the Okinawan name. :)

Cthulhu

thanx for the info :)

I learned it as Naihanchi in Isshin-ryu.

I read after posting that it was originally one form that was broken down into three because it was too long and complicated. So, my question was exactly backwards!

i never realized i was one form. it does make sence though. i dont feel it would be too complicated. i have seen others that are far more complex i feel.

I have learned a version of Naihanchi, that is very similar to Shotokans Tekki, is this the entire kata. I have heard of Naihanchi shodan, nidan and sandan, but I haven't seen them. Is the total of them any different to Tekki?

--Dave

:confused: :confused:

i'm not famliar with any system that combines all three katas to make one.

as far as i know, they have always been seperate.

the naihanchi kata and the tekki kata do have some differences depending on which style you are taking. TSD and shotokan are almost exact, while isshin-ryu's are different.

Didn't they do something similar with Kusanku (Kanku Dai) made more katas from it, or maybe the other way around, "they" = Shotokan

Michael

http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I have learned a version of Naihanchi, that is very similar to Shotokans Tekki, is this the entire kata. I have heard of Naihanchi shodan, nidan and sandan, but I haven't seen them. Is the total of them any different to Tekki?

--Dave


Naihanchi was the original Okinawan name of the kata. I believe it was Funakoshi who changed the name to Tekki. For the most part, same dang thing.

Cthulhu

the name still means the same. iron horse or night on horseback.

there are some variations between the TSD, shotokan, and the isshin-ryu naihanchi kata though.

The naihanchi kata was well known in the shuri and tomari schools. This was before the pinan katas were formed. This may explain why there are 3 katas. The kata was mainly a beginner's kata. It was not used to develop offensive and defensive fighting skills. The main purpose of the kata is to train the waist and legs through slow steady sideward movements for maximum strength. We called the kata kibadachi, or ("horse riding straddle") in matsumura seito shorin-ryu karate-do! After the pinan katas were introduced into the system, naihanchi became more of an intermediate form. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

naihanchi kata was actually called "ni bo jin" in the beginning.

Originally posted by Chiduce

The naihanchi kata was well known in the shuri and tomari schools. This was before the pinan katas were formed. This may explain why there are 3 katas. The kata was mainly a beginner's kata. It was not used to develop offensive and defensive fighting skills. The main purpose of the kata is to train the waist and legs through slow steady sideward movements for maximum strength. We called the kata kibadachi, or ("horse riding straddle") in matsumura seito shorin-ryu karate-do! After the pinan katas were introduced into the system, naihanchi became more of an intermediate form. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!

That's interesting. We actually use it as a Pressure Point Kata. Every technique in the kata has been used in a self defense technique. It's funny how most times you don't even realise what is right in front of you until someone points it out.

--Dave
:asian:

i never thought about that. thanx dave :)

No worries! Funny isn't it, I mention pressure points in relation to Naihanchi, and tonight I attended a seminar with Kyoshi Patrick McCarthy, in which he spoke of some of the pressure point applications from Naihanchi and even showed us some that we hadn't seen before. I've said before in other forums that I don't like his books, but I would recommend his seminars to anybody.
:asian:
--Dave
:asian:

The 3 naihanchi katas are extremely different when you look at them from a technique point of view.
To say "why don't we just put them all together and make one kata" is not practical.
If that is the case then why don't we lump all the kata together and a make one long kata??
Because each kata has distinct trademarks not always recognizable to the untrained eye.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I've said before in other forums that I don't like his books, but I would recommend his seminars to anybody.
:asian:
--Dave
:asian:


Really? I am kind of the other way around.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




Really? I am kind of the other way around.
Is that because you find him arrogant? I have heard some people describe him this way, but I find him to be a real fun guy to be around. It may be because he frequents our school quite a bit. Come on share your thoughts.

--Dave




:asian:

I think McCarthy's wife did a god job translating some interesting books on Karate and some of it's more noted historical figures.
Some of those books would not have been available to most western readers had it not been for her translating and his editing.
None of them are of any great training value but from a historical point of view they are interesting.


I have seen his seminars first hand.......sorry, not interested.

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. Are you sure it was his wife that did the translating? It is my understanding that he spent a lot of time studying in Japan himself and that his wife is Italian.
I could be wrong, it has been known to happen.;)


--Dave

His wife is Japanese, infact I knew Pat and his wife, Yuriko, while they were in Japan and I can assure you she did the translations

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Fair enough, I just wondered as you are the first one I have come across, with that veiw point. ........
--Dave


To be honest, I have met many people that feel the same way as me.

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Naihanchi was the original Okinawan name of the kata. I believe it was Funakoshi who changed the name to Tekki. For the most part, same dang thing.

Cthulhu

Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.

Originally posted by arnisador

I learned Tekki Shodan yesterday (Shotokan style--I don't know who all else does it as Tekki since Shotokan started calling it that). Different from the Isshin-ryu version I learned years agao in feel but not in pattern.


The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.

Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed. Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school. The pinan kata's became the beginner or kids kata's. Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l I feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate. Some of the above info I got from the book Okinawan Karate by Mark Bishop.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.

Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".



Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Anko Itosu developed these Pinan kata's. These kata's where first introduced in 1901 to an Okinawan Elementary school.

There is actually another thread on this somewhere around here.


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Most people call Gichin Funakoshi the father of modern karate. Personally, l feel he is the father of modern Japanese Kaarate. Anko Itosu, who was Gichin teacher the father of modern karate.
Bob :asian:

Agreed.

Itosu was the first person to actually try and successfully open karate up into the mainstream of society by introducing it into the schools systems of Okinawa.

Funakoshi, whom I rather dislike, tended to "extend the truth" about himself and his importance.

Yes, most people think he's the greatest teacher there was. In fact there where a ton more that's probably better then he was. I also agree with you on learning 1 or 2 kata's. My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

My instructor has a book wrote by Seyiu Oyata, in there he stated that people would have martial art duels. Before these duels happen they would perform a kata. If they could read the other person's bunkai and they felt the other person was better they would cancell the fight. That's my 2 cents
Bob :asian:

Which book was this again?
Do you know the name of it?

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I believe it was call "Ryu Te No Michi". On the cover of the book it has a Women's hand holding a flower and her hand is painted. I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not. The web site for it is
www.ryushu.com
Bob:asian:


I have read that book. My teacher wrote it back in 1998.
The photo on the cover is a tattooed hand.
Sometimes woman in Okinawa used to tattoo their hands for religious reason and sometimes to ward off evil.
This practice is rarely if ever done so that woman is most likely very old.

As for the practice of doing kata before a duel I don't remember my teacher ever writing anything about that.
I know he did write about studying other peoples movements which you mentioned and it is called Rok-kan, and about studying their skill which is called Ken-kyu.

The website you mentioned belongs to a friend of mine named Mike Minor.
There is another good book you can order from there called "Ryukyu Kempo: History and Basics" written by Kyoshi Jim Logue.
Very good book.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Hi DAve,

I was interested in some of the breakdowns that you have for your Naihanchi kata. I have been working on that one too and would love to hear about some different applications.

dki girl

Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.

--Dave:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Well some could be a bit hard to explain in writing, and of course one application is not the only application. Also, the ones I have seen are pressure point techniques. If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.


Agreed. Learning from the Internet is just as impossible as learning from a book.

Originally posted by D.Cobb

I am only just learning too, so you would probably be better off, getting a hold of books or tapes by Dillman or one of the guys from the Dragon Society.
--Dave:asian:

I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan



I disagree.
I have seen Dillmans tapes I noticed many areas that are incorrect. Foot work just for starters.
Last year I had someone from Dragon Society come to my dojo.
The y were ranked 4th dan by Dragon Society, their skill level and knowledge of tuite/atemi/kyusho was extremely poor.
I do not recommend them at all.
In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.

I can recommend Taika Oyata tapes, found on my website, (small plug here since he is my teacher).
He has trained with very respected masters in Okinawa and has been doing tuite/atemi/kyusho jutsu since before all of the above people were born. So if anyone would know about it he would.
Hopefully this doesn't sound like I am trash talking the other guys but I just don't feel they have the skill level that my teacher does.
Let me put it to you another way..............if the other guys knew more than my teacher does I would be studying with them, but they don't so I am not.

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all. I am equally biased toward my instructor, but he doesn't have any videos available. As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative. As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter? And if it does, then who told you who it was that knows more?

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture. We are all on the same path, some just take a different path. It doesn't matter who is right... only who is left.

RESPECT
--Dave:asian:

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

In fact anyone that is teaching the "Color by numbers kyusho" method as I like to call it I wouldn't recommend. So if you hear someone start rattling off things like Stomach 9, Gallbladder 13, Small Intestine 17....or whatever .......I would forget about those guys.


How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb

If you study PP you will understand what I'm on about, but if you don't you wont.

Sorry, I should have checked your profile before I answered, then I would have known that you train at a Dillman School.

--Dave

:asian:

I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

Perhaps not, but certainly more than Mr. Dillman, since RyuShiKan's teacher is the man Mr. Dillman claims taught him kyushojutsu in the first place...

So who is more competent? Mr. Dillman, or the guy that Mr. Dillman alleges taught him kyushojutsu?

That having been said, I have had the opportunity to train with adherents of Mr. Dillman's methods, RyuShiKan, and my own teacher (we do vital point striking as well, though since we are a Chinese system we use the English translations of the Chinese acupuncture names - in Chinese they are not referred to as Stomach 9, Gall Bladder 394, etc.).

I can say that I find it amusing that while Mr. Dillman alleges his training with Taika Oyata is the origin of his knowledge, his methods and the methods of those who continue to train under Taika Oyata are completely different. There are no multiple strike "set ups," just instant pain and incapacitation. My teacher's methods have similar effect.

And an interesting cultural note...

I ask my instructor if that was a tatoo. He said no it was a way of showing if you where married women or not.

Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously. Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...

Where is your teacher from, by the way? I'm guessing not Japan... No offense intended. :asian:

:samurai: :samurai:

Thanks for the training tonight, RyuShiKan. Good stuff. Time for Tiger Balm... :D

Originally posted by D.Cobb



I am happy for you that you have that much faith in your instructor, but that doesn't mean he knows it all.

I don't ever recall saying he did.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to the DSI, I find it hard to believe that you could base your opinion of them upon one instructor. As a whole, I find that their stuff is very informative.

I actually based my opinion on being a licensed TCM practitioner, what they have published, videos I have seen of them, and seeing them in "action" firsthand.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

As to who knows more, your instructor or others, does it really matter?


If you like you can search other Martial BBoards/ On Line Magazines for extensive amounts of information on the dubious backgrounds as related to kyusho for Dillman, DSI/Moneymaker, Clark.

Well actually it does matter.
Do you study with the person has only studied 10 months or the or that has studied 10 years.
Let's look at it this way:
My teacher studies these arts for what is going on 60 years.
Dillman trains ever so briefly attending a few seminars and what not with my teacher then departs
and teaches Moneymaker/ Clark and some others who in turn depart Dillman after brief study.



Originally posted by D.Cobb

In the end it just becomes a matter of conjecture.

No, it is not. My opinion is actually based on facts that I have mentioned.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

We are all on the same path, some just take a different path.



Again this is incorrect. Dillman/DSI and their ilk have gone wild and seem to be on a different path.
Just as an example, I can't ever recall my teacher propagating these ridiculous "no touch knock outs" like some of the above mentioned.

Originally posted by D.Cobb



How do you refer to different points? Do you use their Chinese Dim Mak names, perchance? What is wrong with the St9, Gb13, SI17 references?


Is there a difference between the regular Chinese names and Dim mak names?
Basically what is wrong with using acupuncture names is the points are so small and difficult to find when someone is standing still that there is no way you could possibly find them on a moving person that is uncooperative and wanting to do you harm.


Secondly, atemi and kyusho strikes are for the most part not based on acupuncture points but general areas.
Take the "whack" to the neck that cause unconsciousness.
There are no less that 8 acupuncture points there, all fairly small, about the size of an eraser on a pencil, and very close together. My hand is pretty average size and if I hold my hand up to someone's neck I cover almost all of those points.
Question: If I whack someone on the neck and knock them out which one did I hit?
Answer: Probably all of them.

Question: Which "acupuncture point" caused him to be knocked out?
Answer: None of them. That technique is commonly misrepresented as working on a acupuncture point, ki flow, time of day and a whole host of other gobbldy guck, but in reality what happens is no different than being hit in the head and being knocked out like any other blow to the head.


Originally posted by D.Cobb

Do you have an easier way of teaching these points to your students? I am interested to know, as I for one would love an easier way to remember where and what I will be striking during any given technique.
--Dave

Sure.
Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time.

I have found that the folks that "only" talk about kyusho don't really know a whole lot about it.
Kind of like sex.........the ones that are talking about it the most are getting it.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



Perhaps others who live in Japan and who have more info on Japanese culture could enlighten me further, but it is my understanding that the clothing worn my married and unmarried women indicated their status most obviously.

Kimonos indicated the status as to whether a woman is married or not.
Long sleeve bottoms indicated single, short sleeve bottoms indicate married.



Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Given the Japanese taboo of tatooing (it was used primarily by the criminal underground, and just not done in polite society - modern Japan is still resistant to tatooing (you will be asked to leave some spas and public baths if you have tattoos), though the younger generation is following the rest of the world with "hip" tattoos), it would likely not be the rule to indicate a married woman with a tattoo, and given the fastidious cleanliness of the Japanese and their predilection for regular bathing, I would guess that painting the hand in complex designs that are time consuming to create wouldn't be much of an explanation either...


Tattoos in Japan have a long history and at one point long ago were outlawed as was smoking. (should have kept the smoking law)
Recently the younger generation seems to be more tolerant of tattoos.

However, Okinawa was a different country up until recently and has had among other cultures strong Polynesian influences.
Tattoos in Okinawan were, from what I have been told and read, used for spiritual reasons, to ward off evil and sometimes even illness.

First of all my instructor study with Seiyu Oyata, and he also talks about when Dillman was there. He doesn't have anything good to say about Dillman. One of my good martial arts friends has now joined Dillman's group. He has had a couple seminars with DKI. At one of the seminars they tried a partical knock out on me. They whack and whack on me. After about 5 or 6 strikes to the side of the neck, I said " what am I suppose to feel". Also at the same seminar one of the guys that had some training in the no touch crap tried it on me. My take on it is they try to hepmotize the individual with the hand. They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there. Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet. I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


They did a couple knock outs but the individual was just standing there.

Key point: "Just standing there"
(No trying to attack just standing..........sounds like a bloody useless technique)


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

Going back to my instructor he talks about Oyata knocking out one guy while Oyata had kempo gloves on and the student kendo gear. He said Oyata hit him so hard he crack the metal kendo helmet.

I have seen that helmet. It used to be hanging in the dojo, it actually has a nice fist size dent in it.


Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I think it would be great to meet Seiyu Oyata and even better to work out with him. He only lives about 8hrs by car from me.
Bob :asian:

Just out of curiosity, can you tell me the name of your teacher (by e-mail is fine)

I started training with RyuShiKan last Saturday, and trained again last night.

For those that say things found in traditional kata are crap, I would encourage you to train with those who have trained under Taika Oyata. It is a real eye opener.

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff... :D

I have to say I wish I had begun training with RyuShiKan way earlier. I have been in a very good kung fu system for the last 16 - 17 years, but this would have made for an additional lifetime of study... Very real, very practical, very easy with some practice... Good stuff. VERY good stuff...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :samurai:

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?
It is the same person. I believe Taika is the name he used back in Okinawan, and Seiyu is the name he goes by here in the U.S. I am sure Ryushikan can give a better reason. But I do know for a fact it is the same person.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I got dropped like cattle with a sledge between the eyes repeatedly last night, had my hand darn near ripped from my wrist, and that was just the light stuff... :D

Just as a qualifying caveat to my earlier post, I am about 5 feet, 8 inches tall and weigh in at about 215 pounds... Been in the Army for the past 10 years, so I'm not an Olympic athlete but I'm no slouch...

One good shot to the right spot, and big or not, down I went. While moving, not standing still, I might add...

Good, good, good stuff...

Gambarimasu

:samurai: :samurai:

Originally posted by arnisador

What is the relationship, if any, between Seiyu Oyata and Taika Oyata?

It is the same person.
Taika is a title similar to "O-sensei" and Seiyu is his first name.

Just as a matter of interest, have you heard of a guy by the name of Dr. Pier Tsui-po. He claims to be well versed in Dim Mak techniques, and I would be interested in the opinion of someone else who appears to know which way is up. Also I am wondering have you heard of Frank Monea, both these guys are from Australia, and when Mr. Monea demonstrates, he will only use a moving target as he claims that a standing target will not show correctly the effects of certain strikes.

Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave


:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Also in a previous post you said, in answer to one of my questions, "Learn how to crawl first, then stand, then walk, then run, then fly.
Don't be in a hurry or look for quick fix answers.
Study the basics from someone who is qualified and the rest will come to you in time."

Does this mean, that rather than say, "Strike Stomach 9 blah, blah, blah....", that to start with we should just say, "strike to the front of the neck in this manner, blah, blah, blah........"?

I'm just trying to clarify a point.
--Dave



What I meant was you should study the basic punches/blocks/strikes as well as the kata, and what most folks totally over look is the footwork. If you don't have the right foot work you won't be where you should be when you are striking.

Forget all the triple heater 17, stomach 9, gall bladder whatever.........learn where the body is weak, see what happens when certain areas are struck, which way the body moves an so on.
Which is the best way to strike it, what is the best hand (open or closed or something else) to strike it with and so on.
Push around on yourself and see what feels uncomfortable then use a good friend as a crash dummy.

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

All that "accu-talk" won't do anything but make you "sound" like you know what the hell you are talking about to an uninitiated person.

Ok, now I understand that, what about when you talk to the initiated. You know, say someone like your instructor, where you maybe discussing what happens when a certain area is struck in a certain manner, would you then refer to individual points, or would you still talk about a specific area?

The reason I ask this, is because my instructor, very rarely uses the "accu-talk", when instructing juniors, however with seniors, black belt and above, he will quite often use "accu-talk". I was just wondering how you, and yours do it.

--Dave

:asian:

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...

:samurai: :samurai:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

When my teacher taught us vital point striking, we used the actual names (Parting of the Valley, etc.), not the clinical terminology (St 6, etc.), and we continue to do so...

When we were training in TCM, we used the actual names as well...


That is a good idea.
Many of the Chinese names are usefull for treatment purposes.


Mr. Cobb,

I am not saying don't educate yourself on accupuncture termanology or the principles of it. In fact just the opposite, educate yourself as much as possible on eveything.
What I am saying is that the people that use all the "accu-talk" (the "Color by numbers kyusho" version) to describe atemi and kyusho in most cases tend to be yahoos and know very little, if anything, about what they are saying.
Also, many of the atemi and kyusho points are not always used for treatment like accupuncture points are.
The frightening thing is since 99% of the US/Western world knows squat about accupuncture they have no reason not to take the "Yahoo's" word for it.

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Mr. Cobb,

The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" stuff is a fad.
Here is why.
In the late 70's and early 80's tippy-tap point sparring was the "real deal" and if you weren't doing it you were doing the real stuff.
Also about that time there was a slight switch to do full contact kickboxing.".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
During the early 80's it was Sho Kasugi Ninja craze and many karate instructors became overnight "Ninja-compoops".....and if you didn't have some connection to that your weren't doing the "real deal"
Now we are in the middle of the BJJ/NHB/UFC/Pride and the "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" phase........and if you don't have some connection to that your aren't doing the "real deal".
The "accu-talk" "color by numbers kyusho" will pass and all the folks that jumped on the band wagon and made a few bucks off of it will look just as stupid as all the people that "became" "Ninja-compoops" back in the 80's.

For the most part, I agree with what you say whole heartedly. I also agree, that most "experts" comfirm the theory that "X" is the unknown quantity and spurt is a drip under pressure. :D

I had heard about the pressure point stuff and I wanted to see it first hand. I had seen videos of static demos and wanted to see if it worked for real. The very first KO I saw using kyusho was about 3 years ago and I must say I was impressed but unconvinced. My martial arts base was American Kenpo, where we were taught that to feel is to believe. It wasn't long, however before I had felt enough and dished out enough to be convinced that everything I wanted was in the system of Ryukyu Kempo that I now train in.
I guess the point I am trying to make is to let you know, I am not into fads. If I can't feel it I wont believe it. I was just interested to know how you would refer to specific points. Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

It is funny, because when I started, everything was St9, blah, blah, blah, Gb20, blah, blah, blah, and these days the only time these terms are used is in the black belt classes, and also black belt club. And as you said in a previous post when you hit a certain area you will strike an uncertain number of points, this is how we are taught now.

Sorry for rambling,
--Dave
:asian:

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I do understand that what we are striking are not always acupuncture points, and that certain strikes will create an effect in your opponent that will lead you to your next move, not just a KO.

Many points are not used for medical purposes.
Kyusho and atemi strikes are not just meant to KO people.
For example I had a discussion with a "modern stylist" that swore atemi and kyusho were crap and wouldn't work.
I asked him if he ever did mawashigeri to the thigh of his opponent. He said yes it was a common kick.
I said when you kick him just about right "here" he will fall down or his leg will be weakened right. Again he agreed.
So I told him that he was kicking was an atemi area on the leg.
The area I am referring to is can be located by standing at "attention" and placing the hands straight down along the outside of the thigh, the area is located about where the middle finger tip ends. (Fengshi and Zhondu or GB 31 &GB 32 for the color by numbers folks)
Since most people don't have feet the size of a pencil you would be hitting 2 acupuncture points or 1 atemi area.



Originally posted by D.Cobb

Also I was wondering, if you would say that EVERY school that uses "accu-talk" is no good, or if you would be prepared to accept that there are some people out there who use what is more readily accepted to teach, that are genuine and very very capable?

I don't know, haven't been to every school yet.
I do know of some of the more "famous" people that commonly make mistakes when naming points during seminars and so on.
If you are thinking of a specific school please email me.

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

RyuShiKan,
When working different Kata's would or could they have the same bunkai. If the movement found in one kata and found in another, or are they completely different bunkai. I believe they could have the same bunkai, just wanted to get your input.
Bob :asian:

Depends on the kata.

Some techniques are repeated in a single kata but it doesn't necessarily mean they are the same bunkai.
However, "similar" techniques could possibly be found in more than one kata.

I was taught that similar "codes" in forms referred essentially to the same techniques, though the footwork accompanying the "code" would change the application and possible variations of the technique...

But like RSK said, depending on the form and what techniques/combinations/etc. come before and after the "code" in question, can radically alter what you think you see hidden there...

Gambatte.

:samurai: :samurai:

Hello Everyone....Just got back from vacation and am catching up on the Naihanchi Thread.

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.

Dave,

I would still be interested in your interpretations for Naihanchi....I have a pretty good imagination if you can write them out. I know that there are many applications for each technique, but just trying to start things out.

Thanks all.

dkigirl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.



I am not sure why it is easier to talk about St. 9 or any other point on the neck unless you are hitting with the tip of one finger in the exact spot.
Why not just say "hit them on the neck just below the ear"...........how complicated is that to understand.
Judging from the videos on your website you and the rest of those folks aren't even getting close to St. 9.
(BTW St. 9 is located at the level of the Adams apple on the anterior border of the sternocleidomastoid muscle..............in simple terms on either side of the Adams Apple)

From what I can see on your videos you are "whacking" about five different "points"..............and while the person is standing relatively still I might add.
Try it on someone that is actually trying to attack or at the very least pretends to attack............hell I can teach a monkey how to whack someone on the neck that is standing still and knock them out. :rolleyes:

The whole "color by numbers kyusho" thing is the blind leading the blind.

1. I am not going to ask someone that I know to physically attack me just so I can go full out on my point training and video tape it to show everyone. I want to train with them again and just know how the point works is fine with me. Giving it a light tap works then I know it will work with adrenaline behind it.

2. Since you went out to my website....I think that you need to take a closer look......in NONE of my clips do I even intend to attack ST 9. I don't like using that particular point. I go for TW 17, LI 18, GB 20 and others that I know will work for me.

dkigirl

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

The style I have trained in for the last 16 - 17 years makes extensive use of vital point striking. However, I must admit, that we rarely go "all out" and do focused, directed work at precision striking at "combat speed."

While training with RyuShiKan, I have seen first hand the difference between striking at a point at maybe 1/4 speed, and having to up that twice again...

Definitely more difficult.

Just my devalued 2 yen...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Kinda like having your little leaguer pitch to you and you hit the crap out of the ball and have Randy Johnson pitch to ya. My 4 year old son can hit points if I stand there and say hit that point and that point. As I said in a earlier in this thread. Oyata was knocking guys out at full speed while they wore kendo gear. Don't see to many DKI people doing that.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

I think the point that RyuShiKan is trying to make is that striking a vital point while the opponent is relatively cooperative (i.e. standing still, moving slowly, etc.) is far easier than when the same individual is swinging at at least 75% of full power...

Yiliquan1,

That is exactly the point I was trying to make.
If you don't train with even a little bit of realism you are wasting your time......but then again if all you are out to do is take peoples money by hosting seminars on "color by numbers kyusho" and walking around talking about "accu-points" that most people are totally unfamiliar with then I guess you don't need to train with even the slightest bit of realism and standing "statue still" is OK.
The really sad part about those videos is that most of the folks weren't even knocked out..........
How do you spot the fakes and wannabees in Kyusho demos????.............they are always doing techniques on some poor slob that is just standing.

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works. Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....not to be bashed around like I am a 4 year old and you the parent. If there is not going to be some reasonable attitude of respect towards fellow martial artists, then I will just leave.

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo. I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

To sum up, theres many ways of training. Find what works best for you and go for it.


-Mod note : Y'all relax a bit huh? Thanks. :)

:asian:

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo.

And as long as what is being done is expressly labeled as a demo then everything is fine. When folks train demo-style and believe that their technique will work when someone is coming at them in a significantly more powerful manner, they are misinformed at best...

I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts. Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?

A) You are right - if things were done "for real" then there would be a lot more deaths (and I remember a few years back that martial arts were commented on as being safer than professional football... go figure!). But we aren't talking about doing things "for real." That should go without saying. What we are talking about is training with a certain degree of realism that approximates what will really happen, and I think everyone will agree that how you train is how you will react.

B) While having a rank amateur coming at you full speed (or nearly so) is a disheartening prospect, as either instructors or senior students it is our mission to train those junior to us... Last night I was working out with a friend's niece. She is a yellow belt in TKD, and needed to work on her stuff for an upcoming test. Since there were no TKD folks available, I agreed to help her workout. Due to the difference in our orientation of training, she had never actually kicked or punched another person before. Last night, she overcame her fear of striking another person, learned about distance and timing as it relates to having a body to strike/strike at, etc. I got tagged with a good number of pretty potent kicks (she has a really sweet sliding side kick that she managed to plant pretty solidly rather regularly!), and my belly is tender this morning... The point? Sometimes we have to let the beginners get some time in hitting us, making mistakes, and sometimes even getting slightly injured, if we are going to allow them to learn for real...

Yes, training at full speed is good...so is training at slow speed. If the idea is to move fast and accurate, you must start out by learning to hit your target. I'm not familiar with the art in question, but am going on my own experiences from watching various classes in several arts.

And I would agree completely. Taiji is one of the arts I study, and the entire training philosophy behind it is to train slowly to develop the coordination that you will use at full speed... However, unlike a lot of taiji schools I have dealt with, we frequently speed up the techniques to train them at "combat speed."

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

If I used foam padded sticks, only swung them at half power, and never actually tried to make contact, I guarantee that FMA proponents would come crashing down on me for my lack of realistic training...

Hope I'm not kicking a dead horse here...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!

Good enough then, but demonstrations of what? That striking certain points produces certain effects? Good, too. That using said striking points can be useful in self defense? Still good. That doing the striking as demonstrated equals adequate self defense training? Not good... :(

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.

I can fully understand your concern... I think it was Jigaro Kano that said, when commenting on what bowing is intended to mean to a judoka, "when I bow, I am apologizing for the pain that is about to occur, and acknowledging that it is to our mutual benefit and is not meant to be taken personally." Or something to that effect.

Not too many folks get off on being whacked where whacking causes "come to Jesus" pain... However, when all involved realize that it is to their mutual benefit and development to participate, the fear of having future ukes turn tail and run is reduced significantly... There is the issue of having brand spanking new students hightail it away from your school, and that is a legitimate concern as well for those involved in commercial instruction, but it begs the question: "Do I teach to pass on martial knowledge, or do I teach to put food on my table?" Sometimes the answers are mutually exclusive...

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works"....I know it works.

How do you know it works? Maybe you know "it" works. Not trying to get snippy, but if you have never done it at full or near full speed, you have absolutely no idea whether it will or won't work for you.

Oyata has already done it, so why do DKI people need to do it? You can already see that it works....

Sure, we all know Taika Oyata has done it/can do it. DKI and other people need to do it too, because all we know from Taika Oyata doing it is that he can do it... That doesn't mean that by extension we can, too...

Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

I hope I am coming across not as disrespectful, but as debating. There can be, logically, only one right way of doing a thing. There cannot be more than one right way, because then one of them is not 100% right. If training a particular way yields particular results, then that way should be examined for its merits, whatever way that is.

I have studied vital point striking in my "mother" system of Yili for a long time. We have always trained to apply them first at slow speed to develop knowledge of the point, the angle of striking, the relationship of our body to theirs, the timing, etc. But we end up hammering the dog snot out of each other at near full speed to ensure we are able to apply what we know for real.

When I started training with RyuShiKan, it was the same thing. I have never witnessed DKI training firsthand, but if training to strike vital points, or any points for that matter, is never done at near full speed, then the people training are kidding themselves on what they are really capable of. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing with this premise, since it is the basis of the major arguments against TKD, goofy kung fu schools, non-combative Taiji (and for that matter a lot of allegedly combat oriented Taiji), etc.

Please don't take offense to my comments. I mean them in the spirit of combined support and education.

:asian:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

dkigirl [/B][/QUOTE]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Just as an afterthought...

The Dog Brothers are held in pretty high regard in FMA circles.

Why?

Because they do what they do and they do it for real.

Sure, people get banged up, but nobody questions the skills, validity and authenticity of what they do.

Actually I did hear of one story. Let me first say I don't
take ANYTHING away from those guys, they're hard core to the
bone, no doubt! But this story I heard (can't say I know
for a fact that it's valid, I don't know the guy personally who
told it to me) ... but he said he got to hang with those guys,
and he was the first to get a strike in. It went straight to the
top of his opponent's head, and dented the hell out of his
helmet. This blow would've at LEAST knocked him out in the
real world. But the guy whose head would've been caved in
won the 'fight' ... he got the other guy to tap out. I still do
NOT question the skills validity or authenticity of what they do
... but just thought I'd share .. some do question it, even if
it's just SLIGHTLY.

:asian:

Well, that is just the consequences of trying to not actually kill your opponent... :D

Safety equipment is meant to provide just that... SAFETY.

While I am not a member, nor do I endorse their training, the SCA folks do work on the honor system when they "fight," and blows they know would represent debilitating injury are usually honored and kudos are given to the one that dealt it.

Just one of those things, I guess...

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

Just wondering...

My teacher has KO'd me before (I asked him to, since I had never experienced it before - he thought I was stupid, but indulged me), and I was allowed to recover naturally... No smacking, whacking, crossing of arms or massage needed.

Just wondering...

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

This has always seemed like showmanship to me.

I have heard similar stories about the Dog Brothers--they disregard hits that would stop or at least slow down someone.

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

Only one right way of doing things? I don't buy it!

What I mean by that is if you say "this is the strongest punch in the world," then logically all other punches must be weaker. There can't be two strongest punches... then they aren't both the strongest, but of similar strength that may surpass all others. The whole "-est" indicates no others beyond that level...

So if someone says "this method of X is the best," then they imply, literally, that all others are lesser, false, flawed. There cannot be two best ways...

Now.

That isn't to say that you cannot achieve the same result with two different approaches. You can use trapping hands, sticky hands, rolling hands, or push hands to result in the exact same identical trap. Four ways, one result. But that is a whole other comparison, and perhaps that is what DKIGirl was trying to imply...

The Dog Brothers are a...unique...breed (pun intended). The ones who have been fighting with them for a while wear very little protection: fencing mask, batting gloves, elbow pads (not for the opponents' protection, but to keep from tearing their elbows when they hit the fencing mask grill), and maybe knee pads. They started out with heavier protection, but over the years, the armor got lighter and lighter as they searched for more realistic training. Bear in mind, they fight with this minimal protection with rattan sticks of various sizes, bokken, nunchaku, whips, empty-hand, etc.

I would love to train at that level, but I have responsibilities that would be endangered if I got a serious injury.

Gotta love their motto: "Higher Consciousness Through Harder Contact" (C) :D

Cthulhu

Originally posted by DKI Girl

1. All the clips on my website are what they are labeled.....Demonstrations!!


I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique.
Both people were standing still and one of them just whacked the other one.............rather ineffectively too.
I never said they had to be really attacking you..........even if they just moved at 10% speed that would be good but in most of them they aren't even attacking they are just standing doing nothing.
So "demonstrating" on how to smack a person who is not attacking.............pretty useful stuff. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by DKI Girl

2. I want to have future ukes allow me to PRACTICE on them.


I don't see what the problem is......if what you think you are doing will really works then you should be able to do the same technique on them with the same results and without serious injury.........in essence you would be doing the same technique except they would actually be moving.


Originally posted by DKI Girl

3. I am not Oyata and will never put kendo gear on someone just to see "if it works................... You can already see that it works....

Firstly the kendo helmet comment was inaccurate and the person that made it has his facts jumbled.
Secondly, the stuff I saw on your website doesn't work. It looks like 99% of the other "color by numbers kyusho" crap that I see wanna bees do.

Thirdly, they are ineffective and lack any sense of realism........not to mention footwork, body alignment, speed, distancing etc.




Originally posted by DKI Girl

I came to this forum for some intelligent discussion about marital arts and kyusho.....

As Clint Eastwood (Dirty Harry) said once: "If you wanna play lumber jack you better be able to handle your end of the log"

Originally posted by DKI Girl



Just because you train one way, and I train "color by numbers" as you like to put it....doesn't mean that my way is wrong.

dkigirl
I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what.

The original thread post

Naihanchi.
Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?

Lets get back to the discussion as it was presented and stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined. We all have whatevr knowledge that was given to us by our instructors and our own way of teaching and demonstrating. My way may not be yours but that dose not make any less correct . your way may differ from someone elses but that makes it no less correct or incorrect. lets discuss what the topics are about and keep the "my way is the only way " to a minimum. I dont know about everyone else but I read these threads to get differing views at times.

I recently learned Tekki Shodan (Shotokan); I had learned Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi many years ago. The latter was much higher and had a quicker and higher returning wave kick (the leg flip), but the grappling applications are certainly clearer to me in the Shotokan version.

Seems to me that I learned a TKD form many years ago simular to Tekki Shodan but darned if I can remember what it was. (to many years not doing TKD) Any of the TKD people out there know which form it might have been, or was the instructor doing a form not in TKD (or one that is no longer done)

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Lets get back to the discussion as it was presented and stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined. We all have whatevr knowledge that was given to us by our instructors and our own way of teaching and demonstrating.

The natural flow of the topic took us here.
Why are Naihanchi 1,2,3, different? Why not just mush them all into one kata?
People that understand the bunkai with in those kata know that it doesn't make sense to do so for the mere fact that the techniques are different in each kata.


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

stop talking about who is right or wrong or who thinks they know more than the rest of the world combined.

I can't help but think this comment is directed at me.
Not once have I ever implied I "knew more than rest of the world combined".
I have, however, stated where and how I came to form an "educated" opinion on certain folks technique.
So if your not interested in it.............don't read and stick to replys that deal with the topic only.


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

My way may not be yours but that dose not make any less correct . your way may differ from someone elses but that makes it no less correct or incorrect. lets discuss what the topics are about and keep the "my way is the only way " to a minimum.


Nobody has said "my way is the only way".
It's people like yourself that make sweeping generalizations that astound me.
There are many different ways, some are correct and some are not.
The one I eluded to was in the "not correct" category.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I dont know about everyone else but I read these threads to get differing views at times.


As do I.
I don't mind different views.......in fact I often encourage my students to ask questions and question what they are learning because only then will they understand it deeper.
However when people propagate absolute uneducated crap about a subject I am slightly familiar with it tends to bug me.

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Any of the TKD people out there know which form it might have been, or was the instructor doing a form not in TKD (or one that is no longer done)

This is not the TKD forum..........let's get back to the topic.;)

Originally posted by arnisador

I recently learned Tekki Shodan (Shotokan); I had learned Isshin-ryu's Naihanchi many years ago. The latter was much higher and had a quicker and higher returning wave kick (the leg flip), but the grappling applications are certainly clearer to me in the Shotokan version.

Which grappling applications would those be?
Just curious..........

BTW, kyusho and atemi are very much related to this topic of the Naihanchi kata and it is one of the reasons why there is no need to squash them into one kata.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Why the sudden ER rush of folks when a person gets smacked and KO'd?

Just wondering...





Originally posted by arnisador



This has always seemed like showmanship to me.




It is.
Most of the time you can tell those people aren't even truly KOed........look at some of the body motion........a dead give away.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

I've always been of the opinion that a demo is just that, a demo. I think if we were seeing things done 'for real' we'd hear of alot more deaths in the arts.


Demo's are "controlled semi-realistic situations".
I seen no training value or information value in 2 people standing stone still and pretending to do a technique.
All that does is "wow" the uninitiated folks when they see someone hit the ground.


Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz

Another point to consider is do you really want someone who has half a clue, and less control going full speed on you?


You mean like in a "realistic" situation?

Every art seems to have its share of 'smoke and mirrors' tricks to wow the uneducated. I remember being wowed myself years ago at some myself, before my studies showed me the truth.

My opinion on how a proper demo runs is that it should 'simulate' a real situation, but in a very controled way. This may mean people moving slower than normal, or movements being isolated. For example if showing something fairly complex maybe you drop the footwork to focus on the hand movements.

Personally, I like it when you see it at 'real' speeds, then a slow motion walk thru with explaination. But thats just my preference.

on reality training, my teachers have always started out with the idea of moving slowly in order to learn accuracy and mussle memory, adding speed as you progress. I have also seen where the focus is on speed, with the comment 'accuracy will come with practice'.

:asian:

RyuShiKan,

After this comment from you:


"I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique."


I am pretty sure that I don't really care what you think anymore. I came to this forum to learn new ideas, meet new people and maybe contribute a little myself.


"I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what."


Since you portray yourself as knowing everything there is about kyusho, and you obviously don't care about someone else's opinion, then I will let the "discussion" end here.

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

dkigirl

Ryushikan,
The question I asked of the TKD people is of value to this thread IMO. If there is a form simular to Tekki Sodan with in the TKD systems I wanted there views on it, its application and varriations.
With such imput we could have had a comparison between styles/systems.
Shadow

Originally posted by DKI Girl

RyuShiKan,

After this comment from you:


"I don't know why since you weren't demonstrating any technique."


I am pretty sure that I don't really care what you think anymore. I came to this forum to learn new ideas, meet new people and maybe contribute a little myself.


OK, please tell me which technique the person in the video was defending against...........was it a punch a kick or was it the ever deadly "standing-waiting for a bus" technique.
Must have been the bus one because they sure didn't look as if they weren't punching or kicking anyone.
You obviously are just in it for the "fame and fortune" and those "demo/seminar-dollars".




Originally posted by DKI Girl

"I think I can safely say that with my years of hands on clinical training, not mention the exams I took and passed plus the license to practice, TCM that qualify me as a person to say your "color by numbers kyusho" method is a crock of you know what."


Since you portray yourself as knowing everything there is about kyusho, and you obviously don't care about someone else's opinion, then I will let the "discussion" end here.


Again another sweeping generalization. :rolleyes:
Did I say or even portray myself as knowing "everything"? I can't seem to find that bit in my post.
Is it so wrong to support my ideas with credentials to show where I base my opinions............I think not.


I am all for another opinion as long as it is a somewhat "educated".



Originally posted by DKI Girl

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

dkigirl

This statement speaks volumes.
You would rather not discuss it with someone that is trained in TCM because it would shoot holes in your "half-baked" theories about kyusho.



Originally posted by DKI Girl


Just to let everyone know that I am a "color by number" type or person. My opinion is that it is a whole lot easier talking with someone about Stomach 9 rather than "an area on the neck". Especially when we are "talking" via email. Makes things alot more understandable when you can't put your hands on each other and show you what they are talking about.
dkigirl

Is that how you learned kyusho............via "talking" on the Internet?

First off learning kyusho via the Internet is a waste learning. It is far too complicated to show/explain properly.
There are just too many things like foot work hand motion and so on that cannot be conveyed on the Internet.

Secondly any one that tries to teach kyusho over the Internet is irresponsible and they cheapen the art.
Irresponsible because you never know who is going to read it and what they will do with it.
They may read some of it and then go out and try it...........they may hurt some else, although doubtful for the reasons stated above.
Or they might get hurt themselves. Either way it would be due to some dipstick on the Internet that is trying to show off by posting how much they "know" and by posting mpegs poorly demonstrating "technique".

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

Ryushikan,
The question I asked of the TKD people is of value to this thread IMO. If there is a form simular to Tekki Sodan with in the TKD systems I wanted there views on it, its application and varriations.
With such imput we could have had a comparison between styles/systems.
Shadow


Kind of like how the different kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make the 3 Naihanchi kata unique unto them selves but you didn't feel they needed to be discussed here.

This whole thread should be based onthe first and second posts in it .
I have not objected to disecting each I only asked that WE ALL refrain from saying our interpatation is the only one.
If ANYONE has taken this personal Im sorry it was made to more than one person because more than one is involved in the thread. If you feel the hat fits then that is your business I have not named anyone except in my last post.

AT THIS POINT I GO OFF TOPIC
Ryushikan, sir, Your knowledge is vast but but you tend to take everything verry personal. LIghten up Please. This is a Friendly place for us all to express and question. I ask as a member and poster in these threads please do not try to shove your belifes down the throat of others let them have the right to differ with you., we accept your right to differ with us . If you dont like a viedo or a paticular comment It is alright to not comment or to post so as to not belittle the other posters. WE all see things from time to time we do not agree with but most of us do not cut other people down and dissupt the thread by being pompus. You have asked if you present yourslef as knowing everything Sir at times you do
NOW i apologise to those posting and reading this thread for my going off topic and I now remove myself from this thread except for reading it because my knowledge of the forms is not at a level where I know more than has been said already. I truley hope it goes back on topic because it is an interesting thread with a wide varrity of interpatations IMO
Shadow

For those that dont know me no i don't spell well and I have no spell check

Originally posted by tshadowchaser

This whole thread should be based onthe first and second posts in it .

Which was why don't they put all the naihanchi kata into 1 kata right?
The reasons I gave support my opinion why and yet you still think they are off topic.........


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

I have not objected to disecting each I only asked that WE ALL refrain from saying our interpatation is the only one.

As far as I have seen on this thread nobody has made such a claim.
There have been claims that some opinions are not correct but I have yet to read one that even suggested "My way is the only way"


Originally posted by tshadowchaser

AT THIS POINT I GO OFF TOPIC
Ryushikan, sir, Your knowledge is vast but but you tend to take everything verry personal. LIghten up Please.


I don't take things personal and so there is no need for me to "lighten up".





Originally posted by tshadowchaser

This is a Friendly place for us all to express and question. I ask as a member and poster in these threads please do not try to shove your belifes down the throat of others let them have the right to differ with you., we accept your right to differ with us.
............ WE all see things from time to time we do not agree with but most of us do not cut other people down and dissupt the thread by being pompus


I am not shoving my beliefs down someone's throat.
Sorry if I base my posts on actually "facts" and events.




Originally posted by tshadowchaser

.....................You have asked if you present yourslef as knowing everything Sir at times you do


Again, sorry if I base my posts on actually "facts" and events.



As I said before. I don't mind "educated" discussions on topics, in fact I encourage it, but when people post absolute garbage I will call them on it. I refuse to sugar coat it and give them a warm fuzzy feeling about themselves when I disagree with someone.
If you don't like it or have a problem with it ................... DON'T READ IT.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

If anyone else would like to discuss techniques and exchange information from Naihanchi or other katas, I will be glad to contribute.

I'v learned some fascinating applications from Mr. Dillman and other DKI instructors--many of them not (principally) involving kyusho at all. I forget the name of the reverend with the Isshin-ryu backround who's with DKI--Chris something?--but he in particular demonstrated some Naihanchi applications with little or no pressure points but just neat stuff.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan


Is that how you learned kyusho............via "talking" on the Internet?

I didn't think that that was what she said.


some dipstick on the Internet that is trying to show off by posting how much they "know"

Yes, isn't this annoying?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Kind of like how the different kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make the 3 Naihanchi kata unique unto them selves but you didn't feel they needed to be discussed here.

That isn't waht he said. It had become something of an Oyata vs. Dillman thread. Discussing why the kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make them distinct would be most welcome. Could you elaborate? Simply asserting it isn't very enlightening, but i honestly would be evry interested.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Which grappling applications would those be?
Just curious..........

Please bear in mind that I have had precisely two Shotokan lessons so far. My instructor has mentioned that many of th techniques have grappling applications; so far the only one we've seriously worked is off of the backhand block-elbow-fists at sides after the first cross-over step. It was interpreted as blocking a punch from the outside, using the leg to off-balance the opponent, grabbing the head and elbowing the back of the neck, then throwing the opponent down.

Originally posted by arnisador



That isn't waht he said. It had become something of an Oyata vs. Dillman thread.


It was never an "Oyata Vs Dillman thing" for me.

However, to me it was a trained, licensed professional in TCM Vs someone that has been exposed to (by whom I don't know) a load of nonsense and feels the need to further spread the same manure via the Internet.
Maybe when that same person goes to the Dr. and he tells them they have this or that illness they say "Dr. I think your full of it because I know this guy who isn't an MD but he read Gray's Anatomy and can spout off all this technical lingo that nobody understands and he said your wrong ............."

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.
Is it because I don't suffer Internet fools for very long?
Is it because I support my opinion with fact instead of "oh I just think so......I have no facts to support my opinion or actually training so you should believe me"?
Or maybe it's because if I see BS on the Internet I point it out so other people don't step in it.

Granted I am direct and to the point almost to the point of rudeness......... but not arrogant, ..............there is a difference.




Originally posted by arnisador


Discussing why the kyusho/atemi/tuite techniques make them distinct would be most welcome. Could you elaborate? Simply asserting it isn't very enlightening, but I honestly would be every interested.

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.
I paid my dues...........if you REALLY want to know and be able to use what you learn...........you have to pay yours with hard work, effort and perseverance. There is no short cut, there is no other way.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Some people on the Internet have stated that I am arrogant...........oddly no one that knows me or has trained with me has.

Have you considered the possibility that you come across differently in a different medium? Assuming ill-will or confusion on the part of all others is convenient but doesn't lead to much self-examination. I think I'm a reasonable, level-headed person, and I find your posts arrogant. I believe you (and Yiliquan1, who is after all a friend of my friend Mr. Lehmann) that you're not that way in person. Perhaps part of it is how you express yourself in this medium?

Ya know I studied (and still am studying ) those kata for years........put in many hours training and sweating to find only a few of the answers those kata have.
So to just throw what I have learned after all that time and effort out on to the Internet for all and sundry, people I don't even know and some I don't even care for, would cheapen what I have worked for and been taught.

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.


Originally posted by arnisador


(Original Post)
Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point? For example, why not add a few of the distinct moves from nidan and sandan to shodan and make it one slightly longer form?...............

In other words: Assertions without facts? What positive contribution have you made to this thread, beyond disparaging methods with which you disagree? Not knowing you--not even being able to verify your TCM training--what value is there is these assertions?

I guess I have to ask you the same questions because I re-read this forum from page one and couldn't find anything from you that contributed greatly either. In regards to my TCM training don't believe me........I really don't care.


You threw out the original question and that was about it.
And to answer your question: "Naihanchi shodan, nidan, and sandan are so similar. What's the point?" They are only similar in foot work pattern and that is about it. The hand movements in all 3 kata aren't even similar.
As for my lack of contribution to this thread you might want to review the following. These were made before someone else took this thread off on a tangent.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, Funakoshi did change the name of that kata and several more. The reason being it was too Chinese sounding for the Japanese who were getting read to wage war on the Chinese.
One of the older names was Nai fuan Chi. I don't buy into the idea that all 3 Naihanchi were at one time a single kata.

The Tekki kata practiced in Shotokan/JKA/JKF on the mainland are quite different than the versions of Naihanchi as practiced on Okinawa.

The basic pattern in all Naihanchi/Tekki katas are the same side to side pattern. It is mostly the hand and some of the foot work that is different.
Some versions are more "basic" meaning less hand movements.
(Note: When I say "basic" I don't mean less techniques with in the kata just less hand motion in the performance)

As for the differences between Mainland and Okinawan version I am not sure how to explain them but they can be VERY different depending on the style.

Also of note, most Japanese karate people I talk to on the mainland say Naihanchi is a "baby kata" or "beginners kata" and has little or no value other than teaching basic blocks and punches.
This is due to it being short in length and not very "sophisticated" looking compared to other kata.

I disagree.





quote: Originally posted by Kempojujutsu


Naihanchi kata at one time was a beginner kata, before the Pinan (Heian in Japanese karate) were developed.


Actually yes and no.
Depending on the style (since some styles don't have Naihanchi) it was the first kata taught, this does not always mean it was the "beginners kata".
My teacher teaches this one first because he said it is one of the most difficult to master. By master I don't mean the movements to perform the kata but the techniques within the kata. It takes about 30 minutes to be able to learn & reproduce the "dance" aspect of it but it takes much longer to develop the techniques within it.
Long ago people only learned one or maybe two kata at the most and that was their "style". For example if you only knew the kata Kusanku you did Kusanku style, or if you did Naihanchi kata you did Naihanchi Style.
This is why the whole Shuri Te, Naha Te, Tomari Te idea is bunk since most styles today have so many other "styles" mixed together.
(Please refer to Motobu Choki's book Ryukyu Kempo Tode Jutsu for more info on that.)
When Karate became more open people learned more "styles".

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

Is it clear that that's best? The written and spoken versions of a language usually distinct dialects as writing is, at the least, more formal, and also lacks body language and vocal intonation. A different style of communication might be appropriate for a different medium--it happens all the time.

I agree that you have specifically addressed the thread's subject as your post indicates. I was focused on the pressure points aspect.

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:


There are basically two forms of bunkai, the Ura and Omote.
One is the basic or obvious (not always) bunkai and the other is the more advanced.

I teach the basic versions first and the more advanced version later.........if I know them. Quite often I don't.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually I am the same in public as on the internet.......I speak my mind very directly.

I must agree with RyuShiKan, on this one, however I will say that once you come to understand where he is coming from, you will find he is only being direct and quite forward, with his beliefs.
He is not being arrogant!

Robert, I hope you don't mind me springing to your defense.
:D
--Dave

:asian:

I have known RyuShiKan for a little over a year and a half via the internet, and in person for only a month or two. The thing that most surprised me when we first met (and continues to amaze me) is how similar he and I are in a lot of ways...

Must be that Midwestern upbringing...

See, I am from Omaha, and he is from KC, and we tend to think a lot alike given we are "just down the road" from each other.

For those of you unfamiliar with us Midwesterners (and you can ID us easily because we are the ONLY ones that refer to our part of the country as the Midwest - everyone else calls it the Plains States or the Central region or some such nonsense), you will find after lengthy exposure that we are very hospitable people, friendly to the point of annoyance, and very, very blunt. We call it like we see it, we don't ask if you think it might rain when we walk outside and get drenched - common sense is something we like to feel we have an abundance of, with the emphasis on "common."

We don't endure fools and shiesters easily (plenty of snake oil salesmen found that out the hard way), and if we see a dirty deal going down we aren't afraid to call them out on the spot.

That having been said, arrogance is something we don't countenance easily either - that is one of the pretenses those "city folks" tend to have suitcases full of, and after working a while detassling corn, you tend to lose a lot of self-inflation and earn a lot of home-grown humility.

You will see that RyuShiKan often points out his background and experience as qualifications for his own point of view, moreso than to denigrate the opinions of others (though that may happen as a side effect of the comparison). He is also just as apt to point out that he still has lots to learn.

If folks feel they are being personally attacked, I am sure it wasn't the intention. Having dealt with him for a while, I suspect they would have no reason to doubt the real attack were it to present itself.

If they feel uncomfortable with what he has to say, they can do two things - a) not read what he writes, or b) examine their training objectively, not hang onto it with religious fervor for fear of finding fault with it, and try to go beyond it to something greater than all the methods combined.

Or they can continue to post here and be offended, I guess. Whatever.

I like choice "b" myself, and that is what I do when I compare my training previously to my training with RyuShiKan.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Ah yes, I recognize it--the Iowa song from The Music Man! As a Hoosier (though a native New Yorker) I understand some of it.

I am reminded of another story about another medium: USENET. Here the rules of interaction were simple:

I. Thou shalt not offend.
II. Thou shalt not be easily offended.

It's worth working on both ends of this, I think.

I've been lurking for a while here and one thing continues to amaze me. For a 'Friendly' forum, there sure are a lot of hostile folks.

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

Perhaps that is the way you train sir, and perhaps you honestly do not care whose feelings or spirit you may hurt. Perhaps you are an expert at that which you profess, and a humble man to boot, or perhaps you are just an overbearing git. You style of posting implies the latter.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude? The majority of what you have posted can easily be found in any good reference work, but the personal side of it cannot. Why is it so hard for you to share something without taking a shot at someone else that doesn’t meet your high standards? Not all of us have had the option of training in Japan. While that is a wonderful thing, it does not justify the superior attitude you have displayed.

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

Good Day.

(to the mods, I am sorry my first post is a negative one. But this bloody git has me bloody well ticked off. My apologies)

This is an administrative warning...I've gotten enough complaints about a few individuals in this thread to really annoy me. (and yes, I know no one cares about that fact). This is not directed at any one individual, as there are a few in this thead I've gotten msgs about.

Here's the deal:

MartialTalk is a "Friendly" forum. That means check the attitudes at the door. I don't care if you are just 'blunt', 'intense', 'serious' , etc. If you can not do so, please leave. While I don't ask that you coddle the 'newbies' (as it was put), I do -require- you treat the other members with respect.

If that is too hard for anyone...please leave. Now.

The next person in here thats sporting a condencending, disrespectful or flat out rude attitude is going to find their account suspended. Member or Mod.

Everyone got it? Good.

Now, please continue to explore the various bits in here. I don't pretend to understand much of it, but it has been very informative.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Captain Harlock

While I firmly believe that one shouldn't suffer fools gladly, I also believe that a gentle hand rather that a bokken at full force is the best way to get a point across.

I think everyone present agrees...

I don't know this "RyuShiKan", and based on his attitude here and on other forums, I don't think I want to. I personally do not care if he is trained in TCM, an expert at his chosen art or can walk on water. The way you come across sir is as a self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line.

An interesting story springs to mind in response to this...

When I first joined the Army, I was wide-eyed with awe and impressed by the images presented to me: stern faced drill sergeants, uber-killer infantry sergeants (I was in the infantry when I first joined up), snipers that seemed to melt out of the forest and melt right back in...

Then, after a while, I began to become more educated in the ways of the profession of arms. I learned more about why things were done, not just how, about the mentality behind training, operations, etc. I grew up.

Now, after 14 years of service, I have an entirely different perspective of the Army. While I love my Army dearly, and have dedicated the largest portion of my adult life to its service, I can see clearly now what I did not see before, and I have become jaded and cynical about what is in front of me. These 14 years of service have scarred my mindset, my family and my soul. I have lost friends and been rejected by family for my service. I see children given guns who have no business being out from behind mommy's apron just yet. I see veterans who have lost their drive and sit around, contributing little, waiting for the day they can file for retirement...

So if I were critical of my Army, would you call me a "self-important stuffed shirt, whose only joy in life appears to roughly bludgeon ‘newbies’ into line," or would you see that I am perhaps a person with enough experience to know better than that wide-eyed new private from 14 years ago?

How does this equate with martial arts?

If you were a senior member of a school/style/association that had a member who took it upon him/her self to go out and promote his own take on things, without the support or permission of the person in charge of said school/style/association, and whose personal take on things was erroneous at best (and false or fraudulent at worst), would you not feel a certain compelling drive to educate those who are young and ignorant of the pitfalls of martial training? Or would you be content to allow them to fall victim to frauds and charlatains, waiting until they had been suitably victimized before you offered your help?

In this instance, I do not refer to anything relating to RyuShiKan's background or organization, but actually my own. Our school had an instructor that began teaching things outside of our system and claiming it came from within our instruction; providing instruction in a manner that did little to develop the student, but instead intentionally hampered their development to insure ongoing tuition income. Should I sit back and allow those who may have been taken in by this person to continue on ignorant of the truth, or should I do what is right (whether they like me for it or not) and inform them of the real situation?

That is my take on how RyuShiKan and others here and elsewhere approach what they do. They are educated in the arts, they have experience within their respective style and with things outside of it, and when they come upon someone relatively new in MA who has been preyed upon by someone presenting sow's ears as silk purses, they feel an obligation to correct the errors they take as reality.

It seems sir that you are an instructor. Do you belittle, humiliate and otherwise abuse your students the way you hammer at those not worthy of your knowledge here and elsewhere?

No, in fact, RyuShiKan is very patient and explains at length the answers to any questions that are asked. He does so in a very casual and friendly manner. I train with him, and he has yet to be anything but calm and joking when confronted by my ineptitude.

Your few friends and students may come to your defense, but your postings give a deeper insight into the holes in your own soul.

As do yours, good "sir." Though you couch your comments in pleasantries and courtesy, the acid still eats its way through your words. You appear to be well read, and one capable of writing quite eloquently, but you do little to disguise your true intentions.

You have shared a lot of good information. Why do you persist in the self-righteous attitude?

I don't presume to speak for RyuShiKan, but from my own experience (16+ years of training, 11+ of teaching), when you are right, you are right, and after a while it becomes difficult to be tolerant of those who hang onto their own ignorance so religiously. There are those who were previous students of our system's rogue instructor who, when presented with the truth and the overwhelming evidence of their ignorance, instead followed said instructor rather than accept the fact that their efforts and money had been wasted. There are many in MA like that. I have yet to lose completely my ability to be patient with that kind of student, but I have little expectation for that patience to continue for many more years...

Perhaps it is you sir who should go away. I find the attitude of these ‘newbies’ to be far superior to yours. They at least don’t seem to believe that they know it all or hold all the answers.

No, but they remain in ignorance, wide-eyed and open to manipulation by those who lie in wait for just such an opportunity to meander by. It was really easy as a young private to be highly motivated about all that I did, all that I was exposed to, until later when I found out the real reasons (or lack thereof) behind things. At that point it became harder to remain fluffy and cuddly about the things I had experienced, and in order to educate the young soldiers whose lives were being influenced and impacted by those things, sometimes I had to be firm to the point of being rude. But they learned. Or they didn't.

Sometimes when the light of day shines on things that have lain hidden for a long time, what is revealed is distasteful. But better to have those things revealed than to walk around believing a handful of dung is a bag of diamonds.

Good day to you.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

So, we gonna talk about this Naihanchi kata thingie or what? :D

I am always amazed at how things can be twisted around on the Internet, sometimes for the good and sometimes not.
This actually happened to me the other day when someone posted a reply in jest to something I wrote and I thought they were being serious.
Thank goodness we got it straightened out because I thought that persons posts were interesting up until that unfortunate incident.

Another example of how things get twisted around is when I posted my TCM credentials to qualify my opinion. Some folks took it as a sign of arrogance when it was meant to simply relay where my point of view was coming from............a TCM trained professional, something that is rather rare in the "Kyusho world". It would seem some folks are not interested in that.

If I wanted to be arrogant I would have said something like "I am the best damn TCM person on the planet and you should kneel before me".
Even though secretly I wish it were true the facts remain that I am not. If I REALLY wanted to be arrogant I could have mentioned other things that I have done that are a lot more interesting than get a crummy TCM certification.
Having said that I would have thought my opinion might have been considered a little more deeply than it was. Instead it was "tactically" written off as "arrogance" on my behalf. So if simply stating a fact to provide background for my opinion is "arrogance" then guilty as charged. I sure would rather see more people support their ideas on these BB's with actual facts instead of hear say or gossip.

I say "tactical" because I have met people on these boards that I am sure wish I would F.O. and die because I have become a fly in the ointment to them by challenging what they have been lead to believe with fact not fantasy and therefore attack me personally rather than support their ideas/opinions with some sort of evidence.


As far as the 3 Naihanchi go..........there is Atemi, Kyusho and tuite in all of them...........and in all "classical kata" for that matter - (not the new stuff done to a boom box with lighted "numchucks" twirling from each orifice)
The only way you will ever find Atemi, Kyusho and tuite is by training...........not by sitting here trash talking me.

Naihanchi Shodan's creator is not known however the creator of Nidan and Sandan might have been Itosu.........the verdict is still out on that one. I personally don't know what to think on those 2. No matter, they are good kata that have excellent techniques within them.
As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?
Actually the question originally asked at the beginning of this thread is a rather moot one and I don't feel anyone can answer with authority.
Ambiguous questions like this tend to bread thread drifts anyway.

Capt. Crunch errr uh, Capt. Stubbing, err uh, Capt. Hook, Capt. Harlock,


I am sorry I can take your post seriously unless you sign your post with a "real" name maybe a little bio on yourself................I know it is not "required" on here but just as a common courtesy.
You I see I like to know who I am being insulted by...............I am kind of funny that.



Lesson one in how to spot a "Troll":

Their first post is often negative and abusive to a group or individual.


Lesson 2:

They more often than not do not supply a "Bio" or real name.


Lesson 3:

They NEVER include an e-mail address in their profile page for fear that their IP address could be tracked down and their real ID become known.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Naihanchi Shodan's creator is not known however the creator of Nidan and Sandan might have been Itosu.........the verdict is still out on that one.

I hadn't realized that the latter two kata were of such recent origin. That would help explain why they are separate--the originator of those kata might not have felt it appropriate to modify the original form that much.

The next person in here thats sporting a condencending, disrespectful or flat out rude attitude is going to find their account suspended. Member or Mod.

RyuShiKan is suspened until Aug 1. While his responce to 'Harlock' may be justified, there are other ways to handle it.

"As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?"

Can anyone confirm that there is not already a single kata called Naihanchi Dai that does combine Shodan and Nidan...And what about Super Empi? I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they do exist (and who are we to say what "he" made? We were not there. If we were, there would not be all of this assuming and supposition. It is a pretty fair bet that he forgot more than any one of us has even learned.)
In Full Respect,
A.L.

Hi bob....

We always teach several levels of bunkai for each technique. We teach basic control techniques and move up the ladder depending on the situation. I always teach my ladies in the class techniques that will work for them in a variety of situations.

Not matter what you train or how you train, you should always be prepared for the possibility of taking it up one more level to protect your family or yourself.

That's what we try to put out to our students to help them make the decisions on what level they need to function at.

dki girl

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

When teaching kata (and this could be any Okinawan kata), besides teaching the dance. Do you teach different levels of bunkai for the same kata. I know the old masters use to do this, to keep someone going out and hurting someone with intent. Example the first movement may be explain as a block, same movement a strike, advance movement strike and lock. Was wondering does anyone teach or show kata this way. Or do you skip the first two ways and go straight for the advance movement.
Bob :asian:

I had heard rumors from other MA in my area about this, but I don't know if that is correct. I have seen the kata Super Empi and there are alot of similar techniques from the Naihanchi Kata's, but if you look at many kata you will see similar techniques.

dkigirl

Originally posted by alan libby

"As to why we don't smash all three together and make one "Super Naihanchi"..............good question but here is another addition to that question.............the inventor of Nidan and Sandan must have known Shodan...............so why didn't he make one kata? Or even just 2 kata? Whay 3?"

Can anyone confirm that there is not already a single kata called Naihanchi Dai that does combine Shodan and Nidan...And what about Super Empi? I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure they do exist (and who are we to say what "he" made? We were not there. If we were, there would not be all of this assuming and supposition. It is a pretty fair bet that he forgot more than any one of us has even learned.)
In Full Respect,
A.L.

hello

yes u r correct on that s. e. and other katas have same as moves but I believe that the s.e . and nai di were from the same mode . but i was not there so its hard to tell.
but i would sure have love to been there , as we our selves would have the true way
in full respect ---- al

I was reviewing a tape that I had trade with one of are martialtalk members. The tape is of Bruce Juchnik, who is with Kosho Ryu Kempo. In this tape he talks about Mitose taught him the Naihanchi kata. He also refers to it as Naihando kata. To say the lease this is a very bad version of the kata. He looks like a white belt that has just learn it in about 5 minutes. Most of the time is spent on talking about timing and how to move to evade the in coming attack. Punches are thrown from around the 5 to 6 foot range with a step though punch. He also talks about the Naihanchi kata being up against a wall or narrow passage. First of all I don't want to step on any toes. But know one throws a punch from 5 to 6 feet out away from there attacker. Unless he/she is drunk or have lost their eye glasses. When I punch someone I am around a foot away. Second I know for a fact you are not against a wall fighting one attacker or multipal attackers. Fighting against a wall would limited you from evading, one of the things he talks about. My instrutor told me there are no blocks in this kata, they are either strikes and or joint locks. I believe the wall thing is a major misconceptions many martial artist are taught.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I was reviewing a tape that I had trade with one of are martialtalk members. The tape is of Bruce Juchnik, who is with Kosho Ryu Kempo. In this tape he talks about Mitose taught him the Naihanchi kata. He also refers to it as Naihando kata. To say the lease this is a very bad version of the kata. He looks like a white belt that has just learn it in about 5 minutes. Most of the time is spent on talking about timing and how to move to evade the in coming attack. Punches are thrown from around the 5 to 6 foot range with a step though punch. He also talks about the Naihanchi kata being up against a wall or narrow passage. First of all I don't want to step on any toes. But know one throws a punch from 5 to 6 feet out away from there attacker. Unless he/she is drunk or have lost their eye glasses. When I punch someone I am around a foot away. Second I know for a fact you are not against a wall fighting one attacker or multipal attackers. Fighting against a wall would limited you from evading, one of the things he talks about. My instrutor told me there are no blocks in this kata, they are either strikes and or joint locks. I believe the wall thing is a major misconceptions many martial artist are taught.
Bob :asian:

I don't wish to step on any toes, and usually I will stay silent, rather than upset people. That is just my way of doing things, here I must say, Mitose's version of Kenpo or Kempo was to say the least extremely questionable. Already in this thread, our suspended comrade has commented on the fallacies relating to the 2 dimensional nature of Naihanchi.
Also as much as he does not appear to like George Dillman, his take on the subject of moving along walls and tight spaces, would appear to be very similar.
If you want to see some stuff that will make you question the quality of the stuff that Mitose taught, have a look at the web pages of some of the higher American Kenpo instructors, or even on Kenponet, I think.
Mr. Jutnick was a guard at the prison where Mitose was being held, and where he died. Now theres some quality training for you....
No blocks in this kata? As in any of the traditional kata, what would seem to be blocks to the untrained become pressure point and grappling techniques, to those that know. Sometimes all you have to do is get your opponent/ partner to assume positions of submission as you do your kata around them. Sometimes you need to check with the people that know the kata from having done it over 1000 times. Sometimes even they don't know......

:asian:
--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb

If you want to see some stuff that will make you question the quality of the stuff that Mitose taught, have a look at the web pages of some of the higher American Kenpo instructors, or even on Kenponet, I think.

Do you mean all of Kenpo or just some of the instructors who were less influenced by Ed parker and more influenced by Mr. Mitose?

Originally posted by arnisador



Do you mean all of Kenpo or just some of the instructors who were less influenced by Ed parker and more influenced by Mr. Mitose?

Oh poop!!!!

You know I just realized that it looks like I'm saying American Kenpo looks bad. That is definately not the case. What I meant was that some of the seniors (first generation) do talk about Mitose and some of what they saw when he tried to link up with Ed Parker, in I think it was the early '60s. I was trying to say, that for more information about the quality of Mitose's stuff, some of the first generation guys might make mention on their web pages.
Also another place you can look, that I know for certain is somewhere on the "net" is an interview with Huk Planas. In this interview, he talks of being shown a "secret technique", with laughable results.
To any of the American Kenpo guys who may have taken offense by what it appeared I had said, I apologize deeply. My original system of martial arts was American Kenpo. Originally Tracy, but then our instructor changed to EPAK. The last thing I would do is badmouth that system in anyway.

I must have been half asleep when I wrote that, it was late.
Again, Sorry.
--Dave

:asian:

And now some how I have ended up with three messages for the price of one. Wahoo, bring on my next belt promotion. :D

Originally posted by D.Cobb

And now some how I have ended up with three messages for the price of one.

No problem--I'll delete the extras.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

Originally posted by arnisador



No problem--I'll delete the extras.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-

:mad: Darn it, I was sooooo looking forward to my next belt.:rofl:

--Dave

Originally posted by D.Cobb

Darn it, I was sooooo looking forward to my next belt.


When you can snatch this pebble from my hand!

Originally posted by arnisador



When you can snatch this pebble from my hand!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Now that's funny!!
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Naihanchi a basic kata????

NOT

I did not read this entire thread, but I was priveleged to work with Oyata Sensei on two occasions (even though my primary focus is on Chinese arts) and he hurt everyone, every-which-way, with the simplest movements from Naihanchi Shodan...

Many nerve points...
Many hidden strikes...

ouch !!!

:asian:
chufeng

I am training with one of Taika Oyata's students, and I will verify what Chufeng said...

Naihanchi Shodan is not a basic kata at all...

Lots of really cool stuff in it.

And it isn't meant for fighting side to side on the levy between rice paddies... :D

I know it has been mentioned before, but it bears mentioning again...

While some folks think of some forms as "basic" and other forms as "advanced," it needs to be borne in mind that once upon a time folks only ever learned a small handful of forms - not the great gargantuan collections of forms that are so common these days, but only one or two or three... That form or those forms formed the basis of your entire style, as opposed to having a bazillion forms, few (if any) of which you would ever come close to mastering...

Just a thought.

In Yiliquan we have over 20 forms total (including weapons and empty hand forms), but I have to admit that, while I am required to know 14 - 16 of them at this point in the game, I can only actually do maybe 8 - 10 of them on command, and of those there are only maybe 2- 4 of them I can really say I am almost getting a handle on (in terms of knowing the breakdowns, etc.)...

How about the rest of you? Or does that question deserve it's own thread...? :D

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Or does that question deserve it's own thread...?

Maybe! See also this thread:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=516

Yiliquan1,

I agree with you about the number of katas these days....I have always heard that the old masters would tell their students that you would have to study ONE kata for many years before learning the true meaning behind it.

Now, when I first started learning kata, I thought...yeah right, but now that I have been learning the meaning behind my katas, it makes so much more sense.

I think that all katas can be used as a basic or advanced kata....it all depends on what you learn or teach will depend on the level that the kata becomes for that lesson.

dki girl

I think the "study one kata for years" statement still applies... Regardless of the quantity of forms a style contains or a person is capable of performing, there is still going to be that necessary apprenticeship that will allow them to dissect the form into its many permutations, and do so enough times to actually enable the student to say that they "know" the form instead of simply being able to hop about mimicking the movements of the form...

When I first started learning forms, I had absolutely no idea that they would end up being as complex as they are... I figured that sure, there were some cool "hidden" things in them, but that a set of techniques was a set of techniques, period.

Boy was I wrong! :( :D

My favorite form currently is our beginning form - Di Yi Guan Nien ("First Idea"). I started working the form at a different angle of application than is obvious in the forms "normal" practice, and found tons of stuff I didn't know were there - throws, sweeps, joint locks, etc.

I just learned Naihanchi Shodan the other day, and I figure that once I can actually go through it without having to try to remember what comes next, it will provide me with decades of material to play with.

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

Coincidentally that is the first kata we teach our students. And they always bring new ideas into the open with their open minds.

dkigirl

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

dkigirl


I have been working on that kata for over 20 years and still learn from it.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

Oh yes....Naihanchi Shodan contains so much information!!! I have been working with that kata for about 2 years and it still amazes me when I learn something new out of it.

Coincidentally that is the first kata we teach our students. And they always bring new ideas into the open with their open minds.

dkigirl

So you have been doing DKI for two years? What grade are you, kyu or dan?

Just curious.

I enjoy the feel of Naihanchi. It has an interesting flavor to it, after years of doing Chinese forms...

Like fava beans and a nice Chianti ?

chufeng

I have actually been with DKI since 1999, but have been seriously working with Naihanchi Shodan for about two years.

I previously trained in Mastubayashi Shorin ryu for several years prior to joining DKI....I currently hold a Nidan in Ryukyu Kempo.

dkigirl

Originally posted by chufeng

Like fava beans and a nice Chianti ?

chufeng

More like cold beer and raw salmon, with cold soba and wasabi on the side...

:asian:

I have been here too long... Do they have restaurants in Seattle where I can get cold soba with wasabi in the summer time? A plate of yakiniku, some pickled daikon and udon in the winter?

I am going to miss Japan... :(

Gambarimasu.

You can get some of that in Puyallup, in the valley...
Cold Asahi, Sapporo, even (boiled in salt water) cold soy beans in the pod...WITH your takuan pickle.

chufeng

Originally posted by D.Cobb



Oh poop!!!!

You know I just realized that it looks like I'm saying American Kenpo looks bad. That is definately not the case. What I meant was that some of the seniors (first generation) do talk about Mitose and some of what they saw when he tried to link up with Ed Parker, in I think it was the early '60s. I was trying to say, that for more information about the quality of Mitose's stuff, some of the first generation guys might make mention on their web pages.
Also another place you can look, that I know for certain is somewhere on the "net" is an interview with Huk Planas. In this interview, he talks of being shown a "secret technique", with laughable results.
To any of the American Kenpo guys who may have taken offense by what it appeared I had said, I apologize deeply. My original system of martial arts was American Kenpo. Originally Tracy, but then our instructor changed to EPAK. The last thing I would do is badmouth that system in anyway.

I must have been half asleep when I wrote that, it was late.
Again, Sorry.
--Dave

:asian:

And now some how I have ended up with three messages for the price of one. Wahoo, bring on my next belt promotion. :D Sir, i would like to make a suggestion, on the Mitose question. If you do not have "What Is Self Defense" Kenpo Jui Jitsu, then please check it out and see what Mitose had to offer as a martial art. It is on the Tracy website in it's complete original version. I'am sure that it will bring you to the understanding which you are searching for about GM Mitose! I find it to be a very interesting and informative kenpo text for the beginner, intermediate, advanced practitioner, and woman! Since kenpo incorporate's the study of motion in it's system, depending on whether one scratches the surface or goes beyond into the motion studies within the system. One will find in this text the true positive worth of GM Mitose!
Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!:asian:

Originally posted by chufeng

You can get some of that in Puyallup, in the valley...
Cold Asahi, Sapporo, even (boiled in salt water) cold soy beans in the pod...WITH your takuan pickle.

chufeng

So when I get there, we're going out, right? :D

We should get the whole club together, practice Naihanchi Shodan (just to keep this post on topic ;) ) even though it isn't a Yili form, then go eat Japanese food until we puke...

Sounds like a good idea to me!

Gambarimasu!

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

then go eat Japanese food until we puke...


Ah yes, the George Bush (Sr.) technique--wise choice.

No, not the George Bush Sr. technique... That was a hack and choke, gag reflex action...

I am talking about sheer overindulgence, gorging to the point of physical inability to contain any more food...

Now THAT's a party!!!

(but if you yack, you have to clean it up yourself... there is no honor in yacking and expecting others to clean for you...)

I thought GW Sr. did a hell of a job. What timing, what accuracy........he got the Japanese PM with one good blast. Must be due to some of his old fighter bomber reactions he learned in the Pacific during WWII. Hasn't lost his touch.
I am sure the dinner party was not the same afterwards.
He reminds me one of those guys from Animal House

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

He reminds me one of those guys from Animal House

I think that's George Bush Jr., no?

GW Jr. reminds me of .................well I haven't really figured it ou yet.

Originally posted by DKI Girl

I have actually been with DKI since 1999, but have been seriously working with Naihanchi Shodan for about two years.

I previously trained in Mastubayashi Shorin ryu for several years prior to joining DKI....I currently hold a Nidan in Ryukyu Kempo.

dkigirl

So you studied Shorin-ryu, then started in DKI in 1999. You say that Naihanchi Shodan is the first kata your beginners learn, but you have only been working on it for about 2 years...

I am confused... :confused:

Gambarimasu.

:samurai: :tank: :samurai:

Is that an unusual progression? I'm not familiar with these systems myself.

I don't see any problems with anything. From what I remember, Shorin-ryu trains Naihanchi, as well as most of the other kata practiced by Shotokan folks, albeit with the Okinawan names instead of the Japanese.

To me, it's similar to high ranking TSD people beginning their training in TKD and advancing rapidly through the ranks. All the material is essentially the same. It's just the emphasis that's different.

Cthulhu

I think this is common in the DKI system, which accepts people from other karate styles (e.g. there are tons of Isshin-ryu people in it, and they do their forms rather differently than Mr. Dillman does). Perhaps the DKI system doesn't have a set curriculum? I don't know.

Can anyone shed some light on this?

Originally posted by arnisador

I think this is common in the DKI system, which accepts people from other karate styles

My teacher has always accepted students from other systems if they wanted to learn.........hell he even accepted Dillman for a very brief time. ;)


Originally posted by arnisador

(e.g. there are tons of Isshin-ryu people in it, and they do their forms rather differently than Mr. Dillman does).

Most styles in Okinawa have slight differences in their kata.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Most styles in Okinawa have slight differences in their kata.

What I meant was that I am unsure that the DKI system has an iconic way of doing their kata. I have seen the system he teaches referred to as "USA Ryukyu Kempo" and "Ryukyu Kempo Tomari-te" but I have seen DKI instructors do things very differently from how Mr. Dillman does it. I suspect that DKI rank is given for understanding his Tuite and Kyusho-Jitsu applications and other theories with respect to one's own system's kata--that that's how Isshin-Ryu people can have DKI rank while doing Isshin-Ryu. I imagine in his school he teaches his version of Ryukyu Kempo which has a certain way the forms are done but that DKI rank is a separate issue--a cross-ranking, perhaps.

I am extrapolating based on what I have seen at his seminars and from his students, and of course extrapolation is always dangerous.

Hi all....sorry that I haven't gotten back, but life has been really busy these last couple of days and I haven't had an opportunity to read the forum.....

Let me start with the oldest questions first....

"So you studied Shorin-ryu, then started in DKI in 1999. You say that Naihanchi Shodan is the first kata your beginners learn, but you have only been working on it for about 2 years..."

In my old school of Shorin ryu we learned Niahanchi Shodan at 2nd Kyu, then Nidan at 1st Kyu....at my current school, we (the insructors) decided to teach Niahanchi Shodan first based on some recommendations from our instructors in DKI. I have known the kata for a while, but have only been actively "studying" it for about 2 years....previous to that I was working on one of my other katas that was a personal preference for me. I chose to start working on Naihanchi Shodan because alot of the seminars that I attend I heard people discussing the applications out of it and it seemed natural to study it further to be able to discuss it with others.

DKI does accept other styles into it's system. I know of many TKD, Goju-ryu, Uechi-ryu and many others that I have spoken to at seminars and camp and have spent many hours discussing kata and other things with them.

Rank in DKI is given based on your knowledge of kyusho...as in all systems, you will have those that know more than others and some that don't...you can't judge the whole group by one or two individuals.


Please, continue to ask any questions and I will provide the best answers that I can.

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl


Rank in DKI is given based on your knowledge of kyusho...as in all systems,


Really??? Not in our system.



Originally posted by DKI Girl

...........you will have those that know more than others and some that don't...you can't judge the whole group by one or two individuals.


Yes that's true, and that is why I try to judge a system not just by the odd demo but by viewing many different members technique over a period of time.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan
Originally posted by DKI Girl
Rank in DKI is given based on your knowledge of kyusho...as in all systems,

Really??? Not in our system.



If you're going to post something, post as much as possible so the quote isn't taken out of context. DKI Girl originally said: Rank in DKI is given based on your knowledge of kyusho...as in all systems, you will have those that know more

The bit that was omitted changes the meaning of the entire phrase.

Cthulhu

DKI Girl,

In your videos when you and your pals are whacking people on the neck which "kyusho" point (actually they aren't kyusho points) do you think is responsible for knocking them out or what ever it is that happens to them in your video.
To put it in terms you can relate to.................Is it LI-18, ST-5,9, or 10, TH-16?
After hitting the said point are there any long term ill effects? If so what and how would you correct such a problem?

I know that when I was "growing up" in my studies of striking vital points, we were never allowed to smack certain points too many times...

In Yiliquan, we categorize vital points into Stunning and Painful, Temporarily Disabling, and Killing/Cripping points. There are also the Forbidden Points which are all acupuncture points.

The first three categories are mostly what I guess could/would/should be referred to as atemi as opposed to kyusho. There are many muscle, nerve and bone points (as well as combinations of all three) that comprise the bulk of the points in those groups.

Forbidden Points were always a no-no to strike with any degree of power or intent, not so much due to the danger of serious injury or death, but moreso because of the potential damage to the meridian system which would inevitably produce illness later on...

When I first started Iron Palm training, extensive qigong exercise to invigorate the flow of qi into the striking areas was part of the program. But, being young and stupid, I neglected that particular aspect of the training in favor of more time spent hitting the sand bags... Within a matter of days, I developed the worst case of explosive diarrhea ever recorded in medical history (well, maybe that is an exaggeration, but you should have been there! :D :fart: ). When I asked my "older brother" about what was happening, he replied very simply "You aren't doing the qigong, are you?" During Iron Palm training, with all the striking of resilient materials that is done, the meridians in the hands are "injured" and can cause illness. And boy was I ill...! :D :fart: :rofl:

Curious to know the DKI take on this issue...

Yiliquan1,

Alot of the views of DKI you have expressed in your statement about points....whatever we want to call it....atemi, kyusho, point striking.....many words for the same thing.

There are always points that we are told by our instructors not to "play" with....and there are others that we work on quite frequently.....we always try to encourage our students to work on the basics that we teach (arm points) and work outward from there.

We also use different Levels of point work.....Stunned, Disabling, and Killing.....very similar to your own style.

Thank you for the polite responses and questions!!

dki girl

Originally posted by DKI Girl


Alot of the views of DKI you have expressed in your statement about points....whatever we want to call it....atemi, kyusho, point striking.....many words for the same thing.


Actually atemi and kyusho are not the same thing. Hence the different names for them in Japanese........look at the kanji and you can see they have different meaning.
Are you going to try and answer my previous question?
I am really interested in hearing you answer.......

I've heard people say that in addition to "nerve points" (kyusho) there are "blood points/blood knockouts" and "muscle points" and that these are three completely different categories. I do not understand the concept of blood points.

DKI Girl,

Just in case you forgot my original question:

DKI Girl,

In your videos when you and your pals are whacking people on the neck which "kyusho" point (actually they aren't kyusho points) do you think is responsible for knocking them out or what ever it is that happens to them in your video.
To put it in terms you can relate to.................Is it LI-18, ST-5,9, or 10, TH-16?
After hitting the said point are there any long term ill effects? If so what and how would you correct such a problem?
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope my low level of skill & knowledge rate a response from you........

Originally posted by arnisador

I've heard people say that in addition to "nerve points" (kyusho) there are "blood points/blood knockouts" and "muscle points" and that these are three completely different categories. I do not understand the concept of blood points.

Kyusho, as I understand the term, refers to acupuncture points that are struck to cause various types of responses... Unlike the constant KOs of DKI, the stuff I have studied varies (at least in the acu-point striking) from pain, paralysis, unconsciousness and even death... sometimes they are instant results, sometimes they take time to work (allegedly) due to the gradual degradation of the meridian's flow of qi.

As for blood points, muscle points, etc... Blood points cause a temporary drop in blood pressure that results in the body going unconscious... I suppose to allow for equilibrium to be regained. Muscle points are points that directly affect either tendon insertions or the belly of a muscle causing pain, spasm, "charlie horses" from hell, etc. Bone points are usually to break the bone, either dramatically or just a small fracture.

Different points are used to cause different effects.

The point on the supraorbital ridge, lateral aspect (in English that'd be the outside part of your eyebrow :D) is a horrendously painful one, but useful for little else than that. When struck with a knuckle strike (like knocking on a door, or a backfist), the eye on that side will water profusely and the opponent will be temporarily "stunned" due to the pain... Good setup for dealing with an annoying drunk that means you little real harm.

Striking the middle of the bicep muscle (especially when the arm is already bent as in drinking or reaching for the face) causes the muscle to contract strongly. This causes a great degree of pain, and when done at a particular angle, nausea and loss of strength in that side of the body result. Another good setup for other things, especially chin na or shuai chiao...

These are really simple examples. I won't go into discussion in a public forum on points that will do any real lasting damage, or cause unconsciousness or something similarly un-neighborly. That is for individuals to pursue with their instructors in a supervised class setting...

Gambarimasu.

You forgot to mention the point that causes loss of bowel control !
A point reserved for those who "earn" public humiliation for lack of courtesy...intentional disrespect to an elder (real soke) ...or one who thinks his kaka has no odor... ;)

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Actually atemi and kyusho are not the same thing. Hence the different names for them in Japanese........look at the kanji and you can see they have different meaning.


Ok, I'll byte. Whats the difference? I cant find either in my dictionaries.

I'll take a stab at it. Might be wrong. Atemi is striking in general. Like a front kick, elbow, Jab, etc. Kyusho is the art of striking nerve points, pressure points.
Bob :asian:

Originally posted by Kempojujutsu

I'll take a stab at it. Might be wrong. Atemi is striking in general. Like a front kick, elbow, Jab, etc. Kyusho is the art of striking nerve points, pressure points.
Bob :asian:

Sorry, that is incorrect.

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz



Ok, I'll byte. Whats the difference? I cant find either in my dictionaries.


Last time I corrected someone's language mistake and posted it on this forum I caught all kinds s***t for it from people that couldn't even speak the language.
Maybe we should ask the resident "KO Expert"............

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Last time I corrected someone's language mistake and posted it on this forum I caught all kinds s***t for it from people that couldn't even speak the language.

No one is asking you to correct anyone else's mistake.

The question is, will you define your terms? You've stated numerous times that atemi and kyusho(-jutsu) differ. What's the difference as you use these terms?


Maybe we should ask the resident "KO Expert"............

I do not recall anyone claiming that mantle.

atemi=strike or blow
kyuusho/kyusho=vitals

Cthulhu

Originally posted by arnisador



I do not recall anyone claiming that mantle.

RyuShiKan is making a rather pathetic snipe at DKI Girl.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



RyuShiKan is making a rather pathetic snipe at DKI Girl.

Cthulhu


And why not..........

Maybe I just don't care for the fact that someone posts irresponsible and incorrect information and is trying to pass herself off as having an inkling of what she is talking about. (i.e. not being able to answer my original question and not knowing the difference between kyusho and atemi)

Originally posted by Cthulhu

atemi=strike or blow
kyuusho/kyusho=vitals

Cthulhu

Close but can you expand on that or is that all your dictionary had to offer?

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

(i.e. not being able to answer my original question and not knowing the difference between kyusho and atemi)

Do YOU know? Many have asked, and you've yet to respond.

*tsk tsk tsk*

Not answering your question doesn't not mean not having the ability to do so.

Maybe, just maybe, DKI Girl has something better to do with her time than to respond to some pompous know-it-all's condescending remarks?

I, on the other hand, have plenty of time.

Cthulhu

:P

Originally posted by Kirk



Do YOU know? Many have asked, and you've yet to respond.


As a matter of fact I do.

I have practiced those arts for about as long as DKI Chick as been able to stand and a few more years longer than her teacher Dillman........not to mention I am licensed in TCM here in Japan.

Originally posted by Cthulhu

*tsk tsk tsk*

Not answering your question doesn't not mean not having the ability to do so.

Maybe, just maybe, DKI Girl has something better to do with her time than to respond to some pompous know-it-all's condescending remarks?

I, on the other hand, have plenty of time.

Cthulhu

:P


So shall we get down to it wise guy???

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




As a matter of fact I do.

I have practiced those arts for about as long as DKI Chick as been able to stand and a few more years longer than her teacher Dillman........not to mention I am licensed in TCM here in Japan.

Is it some sort of secret? Or is it that you get your waiting for
some sort of chant in your honor before revealing it.

Originally posted by Kirk



Is it some sort of secret? Or is it that you get your waiting for
some sort of chant in your honor before revealing it.

No secret.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan




So shall we get down to it wise guy???

Get down to what? Making you look like a pompous ass?

You're doing a fine job of that on your own.

:2xbird:

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Get down to what? Making you look like a pompous ass?

You're doing a fine job of that on your own.

:2xbird:

Cthulhu

OK "Mr. Humility"

Can you give us any better definition other than the extremely brief one you pulled out of you J/E Pocket dictionary? Shouldn't be so hard for you since your profile says you are Martial Arts Researcher since 1981.
Basically all you have contributed to this thread is ragging on me for ask DKI Girl a simply question that is relevant to this thread and for correcting a common language mistake.

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Get down to what? Making you look like a pompous ass?

You're doing a fine job of that on your own.

:2xbird:

Cthulhu

So much for intelligent, informed, educated responses...

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Can you give us any better definition other than the extremely brief one you pulled out of you J/E Pocket dictionary?

Really, don't you think that, in fairness, it's your turn?

My understanding is that atemi refers fairly generally to striking techniques used in self-defense and kyusho(-jutsu) refers to the use of pressure points in self-defense. In that regard I would say that most kyusho-jutsu is atemi (because the points are generally but not always struck to manipulate them, though I don't see atemi used to refer to kyusho-jutsu techniques), but not vice versa.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



So much for intelligent, informed, educated responses...

I agree.

Why is it that when I ask a simple question to someone on this board that is supposed to be in the know they don't/can't answer but all the "Cyber Warriors" jump in and say I am an arrogant bastard for asking.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Why is it that when I ask a simple question to someone on this board that is supposed to be in the know they don't/can't answer

I would like to point out that the board is not supposed to be "in the know"; it is, as advertised, for Friendly discussion about the Martial Arts. All parties in this discussion are encouraged to maintain a friendly atmosphere.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

Homeboy in Japan needs an attitude adjustment. You are a pompous ass. If you are as in the know as you claim to be you should be a little more humble. I assume that someone was nice enough to share their knowledge with your arrogant butt. Unless ofcourse you discovered everything on your own. Why don't you just share your knowledge like and instructor is supposed to and leave the ego at home. I doubt you have all the anwsers my man. It seems obvoius that people on this forum disagree with you on this topic. Are you going to continue to bang your head against the wall or are you going to join the community and share your knowledge?

I have just sent Arnisador an email very briefly explaining the difference between atemi and kyusho.



Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

Homeboy in Japan needs an attitude adjustment.

If I have posted somethine inaccurate prove me wrong.

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt


Why don't you just share your knowledge like and instructor is supposed to and leave the ego at home.


And after that parage of insults you really think I would want to share anything with the likes of you? Besides I am a "pompas ass" you wouldn't want to hear what I have to say anyway.

Here's the thing someone throws out a statement I ask them a question on it and I am labeled arrogant.........

Yeah I am a real ass for asking for clarification or even correcting someones language mistakes, a language that I have used everyday for the last 14 years I might add.


Tell ya what, since soooooooo many people think I am arrogant they obviously have no interest in what I have to say. So when ever I see a GROSS inaccuracy in someone's post I will keep quite so everyone can go on perpetuating the same myths and inaccuracies.

SO back to the topic...................Naihanchi.

Did you know Naihanchi was done side to side so the peasant farmers could practice on their lunch breaks in between the rice paddies or they could practice with their backs against a wall and they use a horse stance so they could pracitce while on horseback.............

Did you know Naihanchi was done side to side so the peasant farmers could practice on their lunch breaks in between the rice paddies or they could practice with their backs against a wall and they use a horse stance so they could pracitce while on horseback.............

I had no idea! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:erg: :idunno: :erg:

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



I had no idea! :lol: :lol: :lol:

:erg: :idunno: :erg:

It's true.
And the makiwara was invented so the Okinawan's could develop enough punching power to punch right through a Japanese Samurai's breast plate even while he was swinging a 3 foot long razor sharp sword...............
And Sai were actually farm tools that were used to poke holes in the mud to plant rice.............

now was that so hard?

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

now was that so hard?


Hard as a woodpecker's lips

never had the pleasure

Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt

now was that so hard?

Was what so hard? These are all fallacies of karate history...

That is why there are so many :lol:'s all over the place...

Gambarimasu.

But to do it on horse-back, wouldn't you need a trained horse?
If the form takes 20 years to master as a human...how much longer for a horse?;)

:asian:
chufeng

Originally posted by Yiliquan1



So much for intelligent, informed, educated responses...

yeah, you and your idol there are the only smart ones here.
Why bother coming here, start your own board and sing your
own praises to yourselves. If you're so freaking intellligent,
and the rest are so stupid .. why waste your time here ..
go away kid, you bother me

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Yeah I am a real ass for asking for clarification or even correcting someones language mistakes, a language that I have used everyday for the last 14 years I might add.


No comments like these are what make you an ass.

Maybe we should ask the resident "KO Expert"............

Maybe I just don't care for the fact that someone posts irresponsible and incorrect information and is trying to pass herself off as having an inkling of what she is talking about. (i.e. not being able to answer my original question and not knowing the difference between kyusho and atemi)



Are you going to try and answer my previous question?

Just in case you forgot my original question:

Can you give us any better definition other than the extremely brief one you pulled out of you J/E Pocket dictionary?


I'm sure your minion fanatic Yilidork while chime in for you. But
Yilidork .. I don't need a lifetime of m.a. training to recognize
arrogance and a plain old mean streak in people. Again ... all
the 2 of you seem to do is go on about how much you two know,
and no one else does. Why bother? You want some kind of
medal? Give me your address, I'll mail ya one.

Kirk -

Y'know, I thought about writing a really scathing retort to your eloquent reply to the above posts, but then realized that it wasn't worth the effort... You have already formed your opinions of people based on your vast experience in martial arts. So be it. Enjoy your training! :asian:

Et al -

I would recommend to the Mod Gods that this thread be shut down. While I admit the tone of the conversation has, at times, been unfavorable toward DKI in general and DKI Girl in specific, the end goal has been (so far as I can tell) to squeeze information out into the open...

There are obvious conflicting opinions between certain members here (no names mentioned, everyone knows who is who and where they stand) because of either their personalities, their art or their association.

Bottom line, at least from where I stand on the field, there are some folks out there with less than accurate information, and they have been called out (as much as a person can on the internet) to defend their art(s). That defense has not been forthcoming. Those who ask in the first place are labeled as instigators and agitators, and are rebuked for pursuing the answers. The ones from whom the answers are solicited are defended when they fail to reply, with attitudes of "they don't need to justify themselves to anyone," which is simply not true...

The very nature of martial arts demands that, when certain claims are made, they be defendable. Period. If a person says they can KO me in one shot by striking a vital point, fine. But I want to see it first hand. If someone then claims they can KO me without even touching me, then I begin to question the nature of reality in their universe...

Certain individuals have been questioned. Answers have not been forthcoming. Other questions have been posed, and individuals have responded in hostile and openly antagonistic ways, resorting to name calling and other equally juvenile antics.

Before the flames of this flame war go any higher, perhaps we should all back off and talk about other stuff in other places...

May the cooler heads prevail.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Originally posted by chufeng

But to do it on horse-back, wouldn't you need a trained horse?
If the form takes 20 years to master as a human...how much longer for a horse?;)

:asian:
chufeng


Don't ask me I am the "pompous ass" not the "horse's ass";)

Originally posted by Yiliquan1

Certain individuals have been questioned. Answers have not been forthcoming. Other questions have been posed, and individuals have responded in hostile and openly antagonistic ways, resorting to name calling and other equally juvenile antics.

Before the flames of this flame war go any higher, perhaps we should all back off and talk about other stuff in other places...

May the cooler heads prevail.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:

Are I guess you and your idol are innocent in all this? Agreed,
it's gotten out of hand, and gotten too heated .. but call a spade
a spade brotherman.

This has degenerated into a mud slinging fest. To avoid further unpleasentness, I've locked this thread.

If anyone would care to pick up on the informational parts, please feel free to do so in a new thread.

Thank you