Backbone to self defense

[Rob Broad]

Is sparring the back bone to being effective at self defense?

[WLMantisKid]

No, Good basics are.

[OC Kid]

The back bone to SD is to be in control of any situation. "The situation dictates the response" Dan Anderson

You must have a clear mind and be able to think through any situation. Action is faster than reaction

[Zepp]

The back bone to SD is to be in control of any situation. "The situation dictates the response" Dan Anderson

You must have a clear mind and be able to think through any situation. Action is faster than reaction

Good answer. The only thing I'd add is that awareness of a situation is also part of the backbone.

[Rob Broad]

So far we have replies of basics, a clear mind and control of the situation. But without sparring a person doesn't get to test their basics, learn how to control the situation and figure out how to keep a clear mind. What do you think?

[Brother John]

I feel that sparing, if emphasized at all, will lead to poor ability to handle a REAL altercation.

Just my opinion.

who am I?




Your Brother
John
that's who

[Rob Broad]

I should quantify that I am not talking about the typical game of tag where you get a point for punching close enough to move their hair but not cose enough to make any sound because there is no contact. I can not saying that sparring is the end all to beat all, I am trying to start a dialogue on the usefulness/uselessness of sparring when it comes to self defense. Point tag that is seen in way to many schools really doesn't do much for anyone other than give a cardio work out.

[Mark Weiser]

The key I belive is by looking at how the Masters of the Arts handle the problems.

They after many years of training go with the very basics due to the use of timing and knowledge of how a person will throw a kick or a punch and being able to use the attack to thier own benefit.

Keep practicing those basics and use them in sparring and get that into your muscle memory and you will do well. A combination of the two (basics used while sparring)would be ideal.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

[Bod]

In a previous post I equated knowing basics with knowing yourself. I equated sparring with learning about your opponent.

Sun-tzu said know yourself and win 50% of the time know your enemy and win 50% of the time, know both and win all the time.

But self defence isn't about winning, it's about not losing. Basic running skills (these take practice too!) are more useful than sparring in this sort of situation.

[Phoenix44]

Good question. I agree that sparring is useful, because it helps you learn to move, hit, take a hit, evade, and to use your basics. However, IMHO, the strategy for self-defense is very different. No matter how brutal you get in sparring, the idea is not, for most of us, to defuse the situation, or to kill, maim, or disable your sparring partner, and beat a hasty retreat, which is the basis for self-defensive strategy.

I think mental strategies, one-steps, and floor fighting are equally useful. I also learned a thing or two from adrenal stress training.

The last thing I, a small person, would want to do would be to put up my dukes and spar with a bad guy.

[mj-hi-yah]

Awareness for avoidance is the first best defense, but I think that sparring is a very useful tool to help prepare a person for an actual self defense situation, should initial awareness fail. Once in fight mode though, the very nature of sparring heightens your sense of awareness. The usefulness to me has most to do with learning to move and become more automatic in those movements. Sparring helps to develop your actions and reactions and provides an opportunity to practice your basics like blocks, kicks, punches and foot maneuvers. It also teaches you how to create distance and evade an attack - as my primary goal is not to fight it is to get away. It has helped me to develop multiple hand strikes, and develop more planned attacks, and automate my counter attacks. Also I’ve learned to regulate my breathing in a fight and how to reserve energy by not wasting motion, as wasted motion leads to fatigue.



That being said, I think it is important to balance sparring with other practical self defense experiences, especially for women, as generally a man is less likely to square off with a woman. They will want to grab her and take her to the ground generally. For my last test it was a combination of sparring for years beforehand, and practicing my self defense techniques that helped prepare me. It was the "no mind" portion of the test and not the sparring portion of the test that in reviewing the tapes showed me what my skills really are. I have maybe 100 techniques against a step through right punch and only maybe one of the guys threw a right at me. The attacks were mostly bear hugs with take downs or attempted takedowns and grabs. It was there that I saw that if necessary I could defend myself against a man, or at the very least die trying... :jedi1:

MJ :asian:

[AdrenalineJunky]

lol!, I love sun-tzu. I happen to practice a fighting system that works very well in the street. And, I worked as a bouncer for several years, so I can give an interesting spin on this.

As a bouncer, most times, you don't get to actually fight. It's mostly locks/bars until you get the kuffs on. However, on occasion (but not any more, that's why i got bored) a mini-riot will break out, where people can't tell the difference between their drunken selves, and trained professionals. Now, you'd think that drunk people would be easier to fight, right? Nope.They're lunatics. So, i'ma have ta go with basics, and deing aware of your surroundings. . .particularly w/multiple attackers. . .having a mag light doesn't hurt, either!, lol In my experience, your instincts are the only tool you'll have in a situation like that. Rarely does the opportunity to plan and execute a strike or counter present itself; so, thinking does not apply, it just happens too fast. That's why good basics are key here. I'm a great stand-up fighter, but I've never thrown blows as bouncer, all been ground and pound when the **** really hit the fan. Hope this helps, all!

AJ

[OC Kid]

Its repetition of basic self defense techniques. The ability to react to a situation where say a person grabs you or pushes you and strikes at you with a club. To say that sparring is the end all of SD IMO is not correct. I tell my students never to bang with someone. take them out and take them out quick. The longer the fight goes the more likely of them losing becomes more and more a reality.
BTW I also teach them there are only 2 reasons to fight life and money(in the ring). everything else is a waist.

The end result of a actual self defense situation is not to win but to survive.

[Gary Crawford]

I love sparring,having said that,sparring is good for learning to defend yourself against MA's of the same style(unless you sparr in open comps).There is a difference between sparring and a real streetfight.Unfortunatly,the MA's who are the best streetfighters are the ones the rest of us don't associate with.These people are exactly what most of us preach against.The influince of MA's is what keeps us from gaining real experience.If you want to be a good sparrer,sparr alot.If you want to be a good streetfighter,start alot of fights.This is where( I am ashamed to say) I learned the most.I really wish I was a less abled MA than I am,because if I could have avoided(or chose to do so)the real fights I have been in,I could only speak of fighting philosophy instead of " I know this works because I did it",or "I know this doesn't work because I tried it and lost".Thank God that I outgrew that!A good MA,is never a willing fighter.

[hedgehogey]

Well. You appear to have come upon the idea of "aliveness". Go to www.straightblastgym.com

In short: Yes, it is.

[psi_radar]

Look out for MJ, she's a biter.

Sparring is quite a different exercise than an actual fight, though it does help hone reflexes. I know you're referring not to tag-you're it kind of sparring, but any sparring as a definition has a level of safety and... hmm ... "game-ness" to it due to the amiguity of its goals.

In a real fight, and I'm taking this to mean against more than one opponent, you have to take the fight to them (unless you're running away, obviously) and make them fight your fight. Work the angles, line them up, and then close range and disable individuals with a minimum of effort without becoming too involved and allowing the others to close on you.

I think the best practice for this is drills that provide committed attacks by skilled opponents with a goal in mind, such as pinning you to the ground, with as much realism and force as possible while still maintaining a level of control. You also should have a goal, such as getting all your opponents on the ground at the same time or getting safely through a doorway. In a way I suppose this can be construed as sparring or a game but it's the commitment of the attack, the absence of the clock, and the acheivement of "survival goals" that really makes it feel like a simulation instead of a game.

[RCastillo]

Better yet, my questions:

*When should you allow your people to start kicking (lightly) to the legs, groin?

*How much sparring should be done if the class is 2 nites a week?

* When would one include takedowns?

To make our work better, they have to go against me when I wear my "Fist Suit" to test their techniques.(They have no pads) Everything goes. They must fight their way out/defend well, but I don't hurt them.

I do this once a month.

I'm the one usually beaten silly. :deadhorse :wah:

[Rob Broad]

I have never thought that sparring was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but it does have its place. Being a kenpo practioner I believe in repetition of the basics, and doing the self defense techniques over and over until they are ingrained in your soul. But the sparring does help the student get used to many things that will help their self defense in case of a street altercation. There are many lessons to be learned in sparring, but it is not the end all to beat all.

[8253]

I believe the main thing to sd is awareness and then the ability to deal with threats verbally, and then physically. Sparring gets you more used to offensive type strikes coming at you and helps to hone you timing, but the true test is one the street. Thankfully though there are very few times that it is nessissary to test this opinion on the street.

[hedgehogey]

It's funny, you'd never see a wrestler say "No, sparring isn't the foundation of wrestling". Any athlete who tests their skills on a regular basis vs another conditioned, skilled competitor will tell you how very important sparring is.

Yet "martial artists" seem to think otherwise.

I think you'll find this video to be exactly what you're looking for: http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~jipe/sbg.wmv

[psi_radar]

When I wrestled, I never once felt like my life was in danger. Big difference between that and self defense--apples and oranges.

[Flatlander]

I liked the example of the chess game there. But something that needs to be remembered, is if you go into a chess game without understanding how all the pieces move, and what the rules are, you'll lose. No question. Once you have that foundation, then, of course, play the game, and get better.


I believe it is on this specific point that you and I have generally been miscommunicating, HH. Otherwise, I am in total agreement with you on the points addressed in the video you've provided.

[Rob Broad]

Many people have expressed their opinions, and that is the only reason I started this thread. So what do you think the role of sparring is, and again I am not talking about that little game of tag that is too often seen passing for sparring.

[mj-hi-yah]

Look out for MJ, she's a biter. ~Oh my beloved ice cream bar...how I love to lick your creamy center! *giggle* you've just gotta bite into that thing!

[RCastillo]

Many people have expressed their opinions, and that is the only reason I started this thread. So what do you think the role of sparring is, and again I am not talking about that little game of tag that is too often seen passing for sparring.

For developing courage, spirit. It certainly worked for me. :)

[Cruentus]

90% or more of good "self defense" involves good tactical awareness rather then martial technique.

So, I'd say learning good tactical awareness is the backbone of good self defense.

[Cruentus]

Many people have expressed their opinions, and that is the only reason I started this thread. So what do you think the role of sparring is, and again I am not talking about that little game of tag that is too often seen passing for sparring.

Now...if you are wanting to develop good martial skills, then live training is nessicary. I am not talking about putting on gear and playing tag, or sport martial arts...I am just talking about live training. This is achieved through sparring or semi-sparring. :supcool:

btw..."self-defense" and being a good martial artist or "fighter" or athelete are often confused as being one in the same....they are not.

PAUL

[psi_radar]

*giggle* you've just gotta bite into that thing!

*chomp*!

Rob, thanks for bringing things back to center. I think the purpose of sparring is to get people used to contact, establish an instinctive and spontaneous sense of range and timing.

HH, I just watched that video (seen it before), and if that's what you're talking about, then we're in more agreement than when I initially read your post. I just don't think sparring's the end-all-be-all of self defense training. As Flatlander said, you've got to have the moves memorized first before you can use them masterfully.

[Firona]

The first time you spar (or the first time I sparred at least) there is this sick feeling in your stomach and everything seems a little out of control. As things progress this goes away, you become confident. People eventually become used to this feeling of confidence and then they can more easily use moves or try new things. However when being attacked in the street it is different, that sick feeling (nervousness) can come back and mess you up or perhaps your mind goes blank because someone draws a knife at you etc. This leads me to believe that the backbone to self defence is confidence, the ability to know what to do when you need to do it and to do it effectively comes straight from being confident. So in my opinion sparring, which builds this confidence, is very effective for providing the backbone but when it comes straight down to it it isn't the only factor. it's all in the mind.

[gyaku-zuki queen]

I agree with WlMantisKid (sorry if i spelled that wrong) . good basics are the backbone. if you are good at sparring thats good too, but you cant be good at sparring unless you have the basics down.

[Rob Broad]

I have seen several people who have had spectacular basics, but couldn't defend themselves if their life depended on it. I have also seen punks in the street who had horrible technique in their punches that have weathered many a street battle.

[ppko]

I have seen several people who have had spectacular basics, but couldn't defend themselves if their life depended on it. I have also seen punks in the street who had horrible technique in their punches that have weathered many a street battle.To me it is all in the mindset some people don't train there mind enough for the street.

PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:

[Feisty Mouse]

The most basic thing of all about self-defense? Actively being ready, at any moment, to defend yourself with everything you've got if that's what it will take.

I think the first thing is mental, although for people training MA from the womb, this might not be an issue. But giving yourself permission to instantly smash someone's nose in (or what have you), rather than getting tied up in the "what's going on? oh no. oh no! what do I do!"

Then knowing yourself and what you can do.

[Rob Broad]

Again I will ask, what is the role of sparring?

[Sarah]

To me it is all in the mindset some people don't train there mind enough for the street.

PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:
I agree, we had a fight comp at our Dojo recently, with some fighters especially beginners, all technique went out the window and it was more like scrapping.

When I talked to a few people after they said once they got in the ring, a combination of nerves/adrenaline kicked in and it was just about winning but they forgot every thing they have learnt.

I think until up put yourself in that situation maybe tournaments as well, it is hard to judge how you would react in a real life situation.

I think it could be different for people who have trained from a young age compared to those that start as an adult, that whole muscle memory thing.

[ppko]

Again I will ask, what is the role of sparring?If done properly sparing will teach you how to calm your nerves and how to take a punch, but I don't believe that sparring should be a major part of training

PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:

[Flatlander]

I would say that sparring has a few valuable roles. To begin with, in the beginner spar, it allows the student to rid themselves of inhibition, develop confidence, and understand the nature and importance of timing.

When starting out, a beginner will generally feel timid about trying to apply their techniques, and fear getting hurt. As well, they will lack the confidence to move in, and meet the attack. But after being exposed to this in a lively setting, and seeing the punch come at them repeated times, they begin to lose that fear, and become confident that they can protect themselves.

After these initial fears and inhibitions can be overcome, the spar can then take on a new dynamic. The student can begin to become aware of what is really happenning during the spar, and that's where the real learning begins. They can see what works, what doesn't work, what needs work. They can begin to understand the truths of the dynamics, and realize the value of their footwork and positioning. They learn why balance is crucial, and how to steal it from their opponent.

Later, the spar can assist in refinement. Refinement of timing, of dynamic accuracy, and of tactical awareness. They can begin to lead and bait the opponent, in order to maintain control.

All of this comes out of the spar. None of these principles can be fully realized without it.

[Sarah]

Later, the spar can assist in refinement. Refinement of timing, of dynamic accuracy, and of tactical awareness. They can begin to lead and bait the opponent, in order to maintain control.

All of this comes out of the spar. None of these principles can be fully realized without it.
I think you bring up some really good points. When I first started sparring (6 months ago) I was really afraid, have never been hit before. I had to train my flinch reflex and change an overwhelming flight impulse to stay and fight.

Whenever I got hit I would just want to run away rather then focusing on the sparring. I’m getting better now and my confidence is growing, it has also helped my Imagination, and of cause this is due to the sparring, and some really helpful people being very patient with me.

[Zepp]

Again I will ask, what is the role of sparring?

Sparring is necessary for developing your martial skills. But I don't believe that martial skill is the backbone of self-defense.

[ppko]

Sparring is necessary for developing your martial skills. But I don't believe that martial skill is the backbone of self-defense.
Than what is the backbone of self-defense I have already put down my oppinion

[Zepp]

Than what is the backbone of self-defense I have already put down my oppinion

OC Kid and I stated near the beginning of the thread that we believe awareness, staying in control, and keeping a clear mind to be the "backbone" of self-defense. I still have the same opinion.

[Bod]

Sparring develops the correct stimulus-response loop.

One of the worst thing you can do (in fighting) is take your skills and apply them in the wrong context. Or note the stimulus, process it,and try to devise a response - way too slow.

Basics are about response. Better responses.

Sparring is about fitting that response to a stimulus in real time. You should do it at the greatest speed and power possible for safety. Playing at 'winning' within a defined set of rules makes this sporty sparring fun.

Another element of sparring is trying to elicit a greater range of stimuli (positional and movement), so you can look for new responses. This generally should be done slower, for safety reasons. Just make sure that attacker and defender slow down. It's not about winning it's about discovering your weaknesses.

One of the great dangers of sparring is that you can get locked into sparring 'rules' which never get investigated. That's why the Gracies were so successful. One of the most pervasive sparring rules of MA schools from the 60s to the late 80s was 'it must look like a Bruce Lee movie'. The other was 'thou shalt not throw', and 'thou shalt not wrestle on the ground'.

Other constricting rules are 'thou shalt not jump into somebody elses sparring session without invitation', 'though shalt not snap fingers' and so on. They make sparring safe, but SD is about training for danger, not training for safety.

I suggest sparring with rules most of the time, but also investigating what could happen if those rules were broken, and sparring as if they could be. In Judo for instance you are not allowed to put a finger or thumb inside your opponent's dogi because there is another rule that says, 'if they do put their fingers in you dogi, you may not spin your wrist and break their fingers'.

When I come to grips in Judo, I do so in a way that should prevent some punching and kicking. I don't take grips that open me up to a rib shot, or a kick in the unmentionables. When I box I keep my stance low as if grappling. It looks more like kung fu, and slows me down, but if my opponent was to change his mind and start wrestling me, I'd still have half a chance.

What I do isn't perfect and remains safe, but it I try to keep it open minded.

So, to sum up: Sparring is to fit your basics with a given stimulus or to investigate new possibilities of being attacked, so you can go away and train a response to such an attack.

[ppko]

OC Kid and I stated near the beginning of the thread that we believe awareness, staying in control, and keeping a clear mind to be the "backbone" of self-defense. I still have the same opinion.
I totally agree with that.

[Brother John]

Again I will ask, what is the role of sparring?

IMHO:

To acclimate (Mentally, then physically) one to giving & taking rough physical contact.
To force one to make a response under hightened stress levels w/out time to plan.
To force one to reach down deep inside and keep going while hurt or extremely fatigued.

These are the best things about sparring, I think; and these aid a martial artist in their ability to execute spontaneously under the worst of circumstances. These are what make it an important element of one's training.... but far too often it takes center stage, which is wrong. There are things about this form of training, short-comings, that make an over emphasis here a detrement instead of helping a martial artist.

Those who spar just to spar are only good at sparring.

Your Brother
John

[ShenChuan_Ninja]

Its repetition of basic self defense techniques. The ability to react to a situation where say a person grabs you or pushes you and strikes at you with a club. To say that sparring is the end all of SD IMO is not correct. I tell my students never to bang with someone. take them out and take them out quick. The longer the fight goes the more likely of them losing becomes more and more a reality.
BTW I also teach them there are only 2 reasons to fight life and money(in the ring). everything else is a waist.

The end result of a actual self defense situation is not to win but to survive.
/QUOTE

I agree with this statement whole heartedly. In my school, sparring is a ruff experience. We don't do point sparring, more like Muy Thai or K-1 fighting is best i can describe it. I have been in many fighting situations since i attend a rough High School. Not one of them started, or ended with me squared off sparring someone. Most are 10-20 seconds tops. Usually they tend to either "wind-mill" or try and tackle. Also, if it is a seriously dangerous situation, squaring off and getting ready to kickbox a guy might get you stabbed, and or jumped from behind. Also, how many fighters on the street know martial arts? When sparring, you most likely are sparring with someone who has had some experience in martial arts. People with experience move, attack, and evade alot more differently than someone on the street.

I believe sparring helps you learn to take a punch, but thats about as far as it goes regarding SD.

[loki09789]

The "backbone" of self defense is learning to think and observe well. Firstly, learn to think about what your goal/purpose is in a self defense situation so that you can survive AND avoid legal red tape. You can win the 'battle' but lose the 'war' if you end up being charged because you didn't use good judgement. Secondly, train for consistency NOT complexity. KISS is the rule because stress kills coordination/fine motor skills. Thirdly, TRAIN LIKE YOU FIGHT, so take those good, consistent techniques and train yourself to know when and how to apply them for maximum results.

Developing good tactical thinking, good training mindset and good observational skills will mean that you 'see' better so you don't jump when you should run or vice versa.

[CB2379]

I just started sparring myself and so far I have to agree with what many of you have said about its use in SD. I found it is more like fighting for points than fighting in the streets. In fact, I had this same discussion with a fellow student on Monday night.

I think the backbone of sparring revolves aroudn the person's ability to control the situation they are in and be prepared for it to change at any moment. It is sorta like stepping up to the plate in baseball after getting a high and inside 95 MPH fastball thrown at your head. You have to dig in but also you don't want to dig in too much and get stuck. Someone who is ready to react to anything but also has a stable base and control of the environment they are in I think is the backbone of self-defence.

My teacher always has a great line when we talk about possible confrontations. He always says this, "if you think you'll get into trouble in a certain place (ie bar) then don't go there". His point is very simple, but right on. You can't lose a fight you don't fight! I've also heard many people who say that a fight is won and lost even before the actual fighting takes place.

The backbone of self-defence is learning to defend yourself without using your martial arts and you can do that be controlling the situation you are in and also being ready to react to anything that comes your way.

Chuck

[loki09789]

Does anyone remember the parable about Musashi and the student who wouldn't walk across the log? That is IMO a big part of the 'backbone'.

[hedgehogey]

CB: If your sparring is "going for points" you are doing it wrong. Way wrong.

Now, talking about the physical, hand to hand side of self defense, sparring is definetely the backbone.

As for "awareness", that all depends on who you're teaching. It would be very good for a bourgoise clientele, but the working class already posses those kind of skills.

[Zepp]

As for "awareness", that all depends on who you're teaching. It would be very good for a bourgoise clientele, but the working class already posses those kind of skills.

Well you'd hope they do, but that's not true for everyone.

[Touch Of Death]

Is sparring the back bone to being effective at self defense?Backbones are in fact made of seperate vertibrae. So, instead of trying to put a title on the backbone and of course be shot down because your title did not include this or that, we must name the vertibrae with each vertibrae being vital to the construction of the over all backbone. Thus the backbone of martial arts is: Attitude, Logic, basics, and fitness(mental, perceptual, physical, emotional, and spiritual).
Fighting, sparring, or just plain dealing with the general public require all four to be at play, and a weakness in one or more will greatly reduce your chances of sucsses in any given situaion.
Sean

[loki09789]

CB: If your sparring is "going for points" you are doing it wrong. Way wrong.

Now, talking about the physical, hand to hand side of self defense, sparring is definetely the backbone.

As for "awareness", that all depends on who you're teaching. It would be very good for a bourgoise clientele, but the working class already posses those kind of skills.
This idea that awareness/street tactics training is 'common sense' is IMO false and I really have found that common sense isn't all that common, regardless of what job/economic strata of the clients.