TKD vs. Kenpo

[Han-Mi]

Both styles are completely opposite of each other, so I thought it would be fun to talk about them as a vs. thread. I personally have trained with a friend of my instructor who is a 3rd dan Kenpo instructor and his students, it's a great way to improve your hands. They also get some good range training from it. anyway, a couple questions.

1. Which would you prefer to be well learned in if you could only choose one?
2. Which do you think would win if the fighters were equally good in their own respective arts?
3. Ever heard of the MAists from the two arts having a rivalry with each other throughout the 80's?(my instructor talks about this all the time)

What do y'all think?

[phlaw]

1. Which would you prefer to be well learned in if you could only choose one?
2. Which do you think would win if the fighters were equally good in their own respective arts?
3. Ever heard of the MAists from the two arts having a rivalry with each other throughout the 80's?(my instructor talks about this all the time)

What do y'all think?

1. Not sure, I have trained in both, and like them both.

2. Depends on the fighter, not the art. It also depends on what type of TKD, I would probably put a well trained traditional TKD against a Kenpo artist and I think it would be a great fight.

3. No

[MJS]

Both styles are completely opposite of each other, so I thought it would be fun to talk about them as a vs. thread. I personally have trained with a friend of my instructor who is a 3rd dan Kenpo instructor and his students, it's a great way to improve your hands. They also get some good range training from it. anyway, a couple questions.

1. Which would you prefer to be well learned in if you could only choose one?

I guess my opinion is gonna be bias, because I've done Kenpo for the past 17yrs. and I'm more than happy with it.


2. Which do you think would win if the fighters were equally good in their own respective arts?

I would think that it would depend on the person, but again, I gotta go with Kenpo.


3. Ever heard of the MAists from the two arts having a rivalry with each other throughout the 80's?(my instructor talks about this all the time)

Nope

Mike

[terryl965]

I'll stay with traditional TKD,2nd if they are equal it would most likely be the fasater of the two for speed always wins, 3rd it was'nt the 80's so much as the seventies,people ego's would drive them to challenge anybody and everybody to prove there manhood...GOD BLESS AMERICA

[Brother John]

Sorry bro...
but isn't "This art Vs. That art" a little tired of a question?
A: It doesn't matter.
B: It's the Heart of the artist, not the art of the artist that matters.
C: Train in what you want to train in, it just doesn't matter so long as it's a reputable art/system and a good instructor and YOU work hard.




Now that I've preached, let me add this:
I trained in Tae Kwan Do Moo Duk Kwan for over 5 years and had a blast doing it. I did very well at tournaments and such with it. Good memories.

Now I've trained in American Kenpo for over that same amount of time.
So I feel a tad bit qualified to say this:
Kenpo will be more likely to prepare the student for a real physical altercation in which he/she must fight for their life.
BUT: Don't underestimate a TKD student!!! The day you do is the day you sample the taste of their Nike's!!!

Your Brother
John
PS: Interestingly enough, it was my TKD instructor who first turned me on to Kenpo! He loved it and sought out instruction in it whenever he could.

[Nightingale]

I've trained in both TKD and Kenpo.

I think it would depend on the quality of the MAist, and whether it was sport or traditional TKD. Both Kenpo and TKD have their strong points.

[Zepp]

Both styles are completely opposite of each other,...

Han-Mi, this is your first incorrect assumption right here.

[TigerWoman]

I've trained in both TKD and Kenpo.

I think it would depend on the quality of the MAist, and whether it was sport or traditional TKD. Both Kenpo and TKD have their strong points.

I would have to agree. Both Kenpo and TKD are completely different. How hard is it to use both together? This has intrigued me since I got on this forum. But I don't have access to a school to find out. I also agree with Terry. We in TKD are trained in alot of repetition, sprint type exercises, for speed. We also train for hard hitting - breaking, makiwara. But Kenpo people are probably cunning in looking for those openings... On the other hand a well trained TKD fighter...just thinking about my master/instructor who went to nationals and won his division. Haven't seen anybody close to his ability, in either strength, speed or cunning. He knows alot of juijitsu too. Not that this is a my master is better thing...I just think that if the right people match up like in nationals, it would be interesting but possibly bloody... TW

[DeLamar.J]

Both styles are completely opposite of each other, so I thought it would be fun to talk about them as a vs. thread. I personally have trained with a friend of my instructor who is a 3rd dan Kenpo instructor and his students, it's a great way to improve your hands. They also get some good range training from it. anyway, a couple questions.

1. Which would you prefer to be well learned in if you could only choose one?
2. Which do you think would win if the fighters were equally good in their own respective arts?
3. Ever heard of the MAists from the two arts having a rivalry with each other throughout the 80's?(my instructor talks about this all the time)

What do y'all think?
From what I have seen from both Kenpo and TKD, a good Kenpo fighter would destroy and equally good TKD fighter IMO. Because Kenpo is just way more practical, if your talking about real fighting and not point fighting. Every good Kenpo fighter I have known are VERY good with there hands. And alot of people may not agree, but hand techniques are surperior over kicks. They are faster, less risky, able to knock a person out in a single blow just as kicks are, you can throw 5, 6, or 7 punch combinations effectively. Kicks have there place! and are also very deadly. But you have to keep someone at the proper distance to use them. It is also very hard to prevent a skilled puncher from closing the gap, seems almost impossible sometimes, although its not.
Its hard to answer a question like this because a TKD fighter could have a better strategy and mindset for the fight and prevail over a kenpo fighter. But saying for instance they are both equally skilled in there arts and neither have surperior strategy or expierience, I would say the techniques of Kenpo are more practical and would win the fight. The TKD fighter would have surpeirior kicks no doubt, but he better have some knowledge of how to defend against someone punching at there face at what seems to be lightning fast. A Kenpo artist would close the gap, shut down the kicking abillity of the TKD fighter, and pummel them with hand techniques. :boxing:

[Nightingale]

I couldn't integrate the two and completely abandoned what I learned in TKD in favor of kenpo. I'll still throw in a flashy kick or two in my katas every so often, but that's pretty much it.

[Zepp]

Ya know, at least in the CMA forum, they had the sense to ask about what kind of tactics and techniques you would use, instead of just asking another "who would win" or "which is better" question. This is part of what I posted there:


...you're still falling into that same old trap of assumptions about how a TKDist fights. Not all of us train at McDojo's or train for the Olympics and nothing else. (Though at times I know it seems like it.)

Let me say that a competent TKDist can strike with mutiple surfaces of each of his limbs from all ranges. That includes in close, and on the ground. He also knows how to break out of simple (at least) grabs and holds, as well as how to not get grabbed effectively in the first place. He's not going to throw kicks to the head while his opponent is in a position to take advantage of his raised leg. If he does kick high, it'll likely be when his opponent can't see it, or at least, isn't expecting any kind of kick above the belt. (If you're a female TKDist, please read the above paragraph as though he = she.)

[Michael Billings]

Done both, 3 years of TKD right before starting Kenpo ... 25 years ago. Guess that answers it for me. But I do not dis TKD, as it has a lot to offer in terms of balance, power, focus, flexibility, etc. The curriculum is just a lot more limited than Kenpo, not necessarily a bad thing ... just a thing.

-Michael

[kenpo tiger]

I've trained in both. As to which is better, have to agree with Brother John once again. You get from it what you put into it.

I think a good fighter is one who thinks and applies all of his skills where best suited. KT

[satans.barber]

From my own experience, TKD is primarly legs based, and hence legs range (super long, long and medium range) and Kenpo is primarily (though less biased than TKD) hands range, which is medium, short and super short range.

I am a kenpoist and I know kenpoists who have foughts TKD'ers. They simply closed the distance while the first impractically flashy kick was being executed and annihilated them with hands. Members of our club have been disqualified from open MA fights (in this case Kenpo vs TKD) for basically battering the TKD fighters!

In all honesty, I see TKD as a sport, not a defence art. That's fine, it's valid, it's fun, it's a martial art, it has history and kudos and I@m not discounting it ... but against an fast striking art that's designed to drop an opponent in as little time as possible, my £5 is on kenpo every time.

I am, of course, completely biased :)

Live and let live,

Ian.

[jfarnsworth]

I would have to agree. Both Kenpo and TKD are completely different
Yes, somewhat but eventually we all go back to the same basics. :)


How hard is it to use both together?
I wanted to respond to your post and not the originator of the thread. This comment lies within the individual M.A.ist. As many a people have said before you'll leave the art long before it'll leave you. If anyone has ever seen me fight personally they'll tell you that my style closely resembles that of a TKD fighter. This is what was taught to me from my very first class. I did not abandon my kicking style or my ability to kick. However I do not practice the kicking aspect anywhere near as much as I used to. Some of the nonesense kicks I've definately left behind yrs. ago in favor of my personal fav's. I was only in TKD for close to 5.5 years and left to pursue the kenpo system after viewing only 1 1hr. Kenpo lesson. It's been 10yrs. & I haven't looked back since. :asian:


This has intrigued me since I got on this forum. But I don't have access to a school to find out. I also agree with Terry. We in TKD are trained in alot of repetition, sprint type exercises, for speed. We also train for hard hitting - breaking, makiwara. But Kenpo people are probably cunning in looking for those openings...
I think I may have answered in the above paragraph. :)

[TigerWoman]

From what I have seen from both Kenpo and TKD, a good Kenpo fighter would destroy and equally good TKD fighter IMO. Because Kenpo is just way more practical, if your talking about real fighting and not point fighting. Every good Kenpo fighter I have known are VERY good with there hands. And alot of people may not agree, but hand techniques are surperior over kicks. They are faster, less risky, able to knock a person out in a single blow just as kicks are, you can throw 5, 6, or 7 punch combinations effectively. Kicks have there place! and are also very deadly. But you have to keep someone at the proper distance to use them. It is also very hard to prevent a skilled puncher from closing the gap, seems almost impossible sometimes, although its not.
Its hard to answer a question like this because a TKD fighter could have a better strategy and mindset for the fight and prevail over a kenpo fighter. But saying for instance they are both equally skilled in there arts and neither have surperior strategy or expierience, I would say the techniques of Kenpo are more practical and would win the fight. The TKD fighter would have surpeirior kicks no doubt, but he better have some knowledge of how to defend against someone punching at there face at what seems to be lightning fast. A Kenpo artist would close the gap, shut down the kicking abillity of the TKD fighter, and pummel them with hand techniques. :boxing:

I had to disagree with you on some points. We don't do ANY point sparring in our school during class. Distance is not needed to do a crescent or round kick to the head. We do a lot of hand techniques which include punching, knife, elbow strikes, knee, etc depending on how deadly you want to go. We are not necessarily offensive, many are more defensive fighters. The Kenpo artist would have to come in somehow, and the TKDo'ers legs would stop that. (unless he or she is unusually short ;) ) TW

[Nightingale]

we seem to have quite a few kenpoists who started with TKD and then moved to kenpo as their main art. are there any TKDers who started with kenpo and then switched to TKD as their primary art?

[Rob Broad]

In the late 80's or early 90's there was a good article in one of TKD magazines about how Kenpo compliments TKD and helps round out the practioner.

[jfarnsworth]

we seem to have quite a few kenpoists who started with TKD and then moved to kenpo as their main art. are there any TKDers who started with kenpo and then switched to TKD as their primary art?
Probably some but not very many would be my guess. :asian:

[rmcrobertson]

Well...other things being roughly equal (time in training, height, weight, age, condition, etc.), the TKD fella would get their head handed to them.

The notion that TKD kicks would easily keep somebody in kenpo away...well, a few years back, I saw a Dodger game in which a pitcher tried a jump roundhouse kick to keep away an angry first baseman.

The kicker ended up on his face, with the first baseman cross-checking his shoulders and seriously considering a punch to the base of the skull...from which he backed off, good for him.

Among the reasons this would happen is that there doesn't seem to be anything in TKD that isn't in kenpo, and a great deal in kenpo that isn't in TKD. It does indeed make a difference what art you study...but then again, anybody in the right mind would rather have a good TKD teacher than a poor kenpo teacher.

Of course, if you had a really crappy kenpo student vs. a really crappy TKD student, who knows. And then too, one of the funniest things I ever saw in movies was the scene in, "Perfect Weapon," in which Jeff Speakman takes out James Lew....as if.

[TigerWoman]

Among the reasons this would happen is that there doesn't seem to be anything in TKD that isn't in kenpo


I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

[Nightingale]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

[Raewyn]

Im quite lucky in the fact that I belong to a club called Incorporated Martial ARts. TKD is the base. But all the moves, locks, grappling etc has a more realistic approach. They teach us moves that you could use and will work in any given situation and have been tried. Maybe in some instances I couldnt see myself trying to do a 560 degree spinning hook kick to someones head in a middle of a fight.

[Rob Broad]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

Kicking to the head is great when it comes to sport, but but low kicks are more effective in a self defense situation.

[TigerWoman]

LOL. of course kenpoists can kick to the head. I kick to the head in sparring often. we just generally choose not to, because mosttimes its more effective to kick elsewhere, or knock them over and then kick them in the head.

Thanks for the info - sounds like Kenpo is something I would like to check out more. TW

[Nightingale]

Kicking to the head is great when it comes to sport, but but low kicks are more effective in a self defense situation.


Exactly. Kenpoists can kick to the head, but generally choose not to because more effective targets are available. I'd rather kick out someone's knee and KNOW they're not going to be able to follow me as I turn tail and run, than kick to the head, which may or may not actually disable my opponent, and leaves my standing leg wide open to be kicked out from under me.

[TigerWoman]

I guess we- TKD- have the same strategy then. In sparring for sport, I would kick to the head. But for self defense, you'all are right about the knee. We train for that defense as well, more like street self defense. Its interesting that the two do seem to be so similar but different in other ways. TW

[Ceicei]

Oh, kenpo does have high kicks and spinning kicks, but we generally use med/low kicks as these often are more practical.

- Ceicei

[kenpo tiger]

TW, One of the things I find is that people who only know kenpo don't think to throw multiple kicks - either the same kick at different heights or targets or a combination. There are a couple kenpo techs which incorporate different combinations of kicks, but they are mostly very basic ones (front, side, back, roundhouse.) The couple of times I 'forgot' and threw combinations of kicks in sparring, my partner stopped the round because he wanted to see what I did over and over again.

That being said, I think that knowing point sparring as well as sparring the way we do in kenpo is valuable. I don't know that, given a fight between practitioners of the two without rules, that there would be one stronger than the other. Each art has its own strong and weak points, and I am glad I know both. KT

[Nightingale]

the kick set teaches multiple kick combinations.

I use them in sparring often. double kicks are very effective, because the opponent doesn't usually expect them.

[kenpo tiger]

Of course kicking set teaches that. And we all have to know it. Most of my classmates hate kicking set. And, practically all do not chamber their kicks outside of a specific movement in a tech. Point I'm making is that the knowledge IS there. They choose not to use it. KT

[TigerWoman]

Thank you Kenpo Tiger for the info also. Its hard to know what its like unless I see a few classes. You are right about the multiple kicks in TKD.
We don't ever stop at one kick. Its usually either a fake, a kick, punches, a double spin or whatever we put in combo for the situation. I guess that is why I do love the sparring we do. Gosh, I had practiced that jump back/jumpspin heel combo so much that in the heat of the moment (after several moves in combo too), in a tournament sparring match, I threw it and barely stopped it in time to just tap a woman's head. Scared the ...out of me! And her son yelled, "are you trying to kill my mom? I wasn't thinking, I was reacting and that kick had become second nature. I haven't been sparring in a tournament since, it was the one before the last. TW

[Brother John]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

Sure we do!!
It just looks a lot more like a stomp!!
:roflmao:

Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW
In all honesty though...
Yes, in Kenpo we can and do kick to the head. Thing is, Kenpo's greatest strength (I feel) lies in it's vast ability to adapt to........whatever.
There are moves that are usable, useful and useless.
Study:
* the useable, to learn what can be done.
* the useful, to learn what you should do/train in more often.
* the useless, to learn WHY not to do these things, WHY they don't work well.

Kicks: Useful...w/in a given context. Kicks to the head, a useless context...
UNLESS:
They can't see you, not looking...etc.
They can't move/can't defend
They are currently reeling from previous destruction
..and so on.

NOW: Kicks to the head in a different context: USEFUL.
1. You've knocked them down to one or both knees....bringing their head to your stomach height.... USEFUL.
2. You are on higher ground to begin with... putting their head (again) at your waist level or so....USEFUL.
and so on
Remember, the best way to fight a 6'2" man
is to kick him in the knee
and fight a 4'8" man!!

I believe that Robert is correct, but he may not realize just how correct.
Thing is, I did TKD for half a decade and did very well at it. I was a devoted student and was very enthusiastic for kicks. At my instructors behest I even cross-trained with another school of TKD. In college I studied another Korean art that was very 'kick happy'....
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!
BUT: I still pose to you that Kicks are not as Useful as finger/hand/elbow techniques.
ALSO: The cresent Kick!!! Darned stupid kick that! (inward and/or outward) I've seen many a fine martial artist try it on a punching bag and end up falling on their keester... The line of force that you are atempting to deliver through the leg goes directly against:
1. Your line of balance, due to trajectory.
2. The natural ROM of your knee and hip joints. (Through which you are trying to deliver power)
It's a rediculous kick........................................... :rolleyes:

ANYWAY:
I still apreciate TKD and my time in it. I respect and love LOTS of old friends who are still in it....
But I pose that it is just as logical to kick a man in the head...
as to punch him in the foot.

Your Brother
John

PS: Remember the GOLDEN RULE of Kenpo....




There is No Golden Rule in Kenpo!

[Marginal]

I am a kenpoist and I know kenpoists who have foughts TKD'ers. They simply closed the distance while the first impractically flashy kick was being executed and annihilated them with hands. Members of our club have been disqualified from open MA fights (in this case Kenpo vs TKD) for basically battering the TKD fighters!


I used to train with a Kenpoist who was a 3rd degree brown belt. (He also held a BB in TKD, though he hadn't practiced TKD in years) When we sparred, he would try to close the distance usually by jumping in, and I'd simply push him right back out with a side pushing kick. He did have superior footwork. If I didn't have him cold, he'd be gone by the time I tried kick him anywhere higher than the waist. (Especially with any technique involving a spin) When I kept my kicks down to the basics though, and kept him out he had a hard time doing much as I had the superior reach though.

His hands didn't blow me away when he got in close though (excepting when he got behind me, which was often...) He taught me some useful stuff about posture, balance and timing, but I don't think I'll be tossing in for Kenpo over TKD any time soon.

(Yeah, I'm biased too.) ;)

Brother John, I'd argue that the crescent kick works well for its original purpose, as a defensive tool. It'll win against a hand technique pretty much every time it intercepts it properly. Superior mass and all that. As an offensive tool, yarch tho.

[Brother John]

Brother John, I'd argue that the crescent kick works well for its original purpose, as a defensive tool. It'll win against a hand technique pretty much every time it intercepts it properly. Superior mass and all that. As an offensive tool, yarch tho.
I used to do that trick....crescent kick to the oncoming punch/grab/knife...etc.

Come on though.... Even back then I could'a told you that that didn't work.
You're gonna tell me that you take anyone with an inkling ability to fight (trained or not) get them within punching range and deflect their oncoming assault with the sweep of your foot?
It just don't go marginal....
sorry.

Does look good during demonstrations though.
Your Brother
John

[Marginal]

I did put in a pretty hefty qualifier there just for that reason. ;)

[Mark Weiser]

The Problem with some kicks in TKD is the exposure of the opposite leg to attack to the knee, ankle or worse yet to the groin. IF you attack someone trained in a punching art it is possible to use a strike to the kicking leg as a way to disable the use of the leg such as targeting the ankle or the knee or worse yet the sataic nerve in the outer thigh.

Pretty much the same way in Kenpo your use of a block can break a joint in the arm. If Someone strikes the ankle while doing a kick or better yet with blocking forearm it is possible to injury the attacking leg.

Additionally the use of balance in kicking is very important the higher the kick the more precious the balance becomes. If someone is trained to fight aganist/specific to TKD it is possible to throw the balance off by giving a tug on the attacking leg a tug of about 3-4 lbs of pressure is all that maybe neccessary to cause a stumble therefore opening yourself up to hand movements or grappling.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

[Marginal]

The Problem with some kicks in TKD is the exposure of the opposite leg to attack to the knee, ankle or worse yet to the groin. IF you attack someone trained in a punching art it is possible to use a strike to the kicking leg as a way to disable the use of the leg such as targeting the ankle or the knee or worse yet the sataic nerve in the outer thigh.



Seems about as likely as the crescent kick successfully deflecting a punch...

[Han-Mi]

I just got the chance to get on and read all your posts. Well written and backed up, very interesting as well.
I have trained in traditional TKD Chung Do Kwan for 13 years, though I have also trained in the basics of many other arts from my instructors experience and other instructors that we would have exchanges of knowledge with. I would have to say that a TKD fighter and a Kenpo fighter would be completely evenly matched for a couple of reasons.
1. equal knowledge of what works and what doesn't
2. TKD's powerful, fast kicks can still be blacked. In my experience, a good kenpoist will take a kick on the shoulder in order to close the gap and then would be able to make a strong attack.
3. The kenpo fighter would have a damaged arm from such a blow, weakening and slowing one of his weapons.
4. Equal footwork.
5. Both would believe themselves to be superior, or both would be smart enough not to underestimate each other. Either way, they both have the same problem or knowledge.

I would have to say that number 1 is the most important. I have seen a few posts about how tkd's flashy kicks or head kicks are not usefull. I must agree that the flashy kicks are for fun, but head kicks have their uses. A quick head kick can save you from endangering yourself by getting close enough for your opponant to attack you. Most people don't know how to use their legs effectively, therefore will not be able to attack at the same distance. As for the Kenpo kicks, TKD has more experience against kicks, so that would make the kenpo fighters kicks more of a liability than an equalizer.

I am in love with TKD but, utterly fascinated with Kenpo. I love the had speed and try to build my own all the time. We occasionaly train with a friend of ours who runs 2 schools a few towns away. The biggest problem with TKD is that there are a lot of schools out there that either teach olympic(not for self defense) or poor quality TKD. And it is probably true that there is a higher quantity of quality Kenpo schools out there. what do you guys think about that?

[Mark Weiser]

Here in my Hometown of Topeka Kansas we have two schools of TKD.


Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)
Master Overby's
TKD seems to be around every corner here in Kansas lol.

[Nightingale]

han-mi-

with a kick of that much force,most kenpoists would choose to get out of the way or parry it off in a different direction rather than stand there and absorb the force. Best way to not get hit (or kicked) is don't be there in the first place. Kenpoists are taught to get offline and redirect force rather than take it head on. even our blocks are usually accompanied with a stance change.

I'm not sure what kind of kenpo you were watching, but the kenpo schools I've been to have spent way more time practicing defences against kick attacks than the three TKD schools I attended.

A "quick kick to the head" is a good way to hand the kenpoist the opportunity to parry your leg off to the side and move in behind you.

[MJS]

I wasn't aware that Kenpo fighters kick to the head. (the kicks I mentioned) TW

While Kenpo is mostly known for its low line kicks, kicking above the belt is possible. During sparring, I've routinely thrown kicks to the head. Again, considering that there are many more targets below the belt, I would think that taking the shortest route would be the best bet. Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. I'm not knocking high kicks, but keep in mind, the higher your leg goes, the more off balance you may become.

Mike

[MJS]

Well...other things being roughly equal (time in training, height, weight, age, condition, etc.), the TKD fella would get their head handed to them.

The notion that TKD kicks would easily keep somebody in kenpo away...well, a few years back, I saw a Dodger game in which a pitcher tried a jump roundhouse kick to keep away an angry first baseman.

The kicker ended up on his face, with the first baseman cross-checking his shoulders and seriously considering a punch to the base of the skull...from which he backed off, good for him.

Among the reasons this would happen is that there doesn't seem to be anything in TKD that isn't in kenpo, and a great deal in kenpo that isn't in TKD. It does indeed make a difference what art you study...but then again, anybody in the right mind would rather have a good TKD teacher than a poor kenpo teacher.

Of course, if you had a really crappy kenpo student vs. a really crappy TKD student, who knows. And then too, one of the funniest things I ever saw in movies was the scene in, "Perfect Weapon," in which Jeff Speakman takes out James Lew....as if.

Robert- Excellent post!!! :asian: I remember that ballgame that you're referring to. Certainly makes one wonder about those high kicks.

Speaking of the Perfect Weapon, what did you think about that fight scene??

Mike

[Brother John]

Here in my Hometown of Topeka Kansas we have two schools of TKD.


Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)
Master Overby's
TKD seems to be around every corner here in Kansas lol.

Yeah Mark!

I got outta bed this morning and stubbed my toe on a TKD school.
They saturate this town!
Unfortunately a local instructor, who is...himself...quite good, is CHURNING out black belts and branch schools and reaaaallllly contributing to the "McDojang" way of life.
I talked to one of his ex-students (3rd Dan) who said that the 'master' has altered three of the oldest Hyung in the system because he felt that several people didn't understand them and found them 'challenging'....so he simplified them.
Now an instructor can do what he wants with what he teaches..... more power to'm...
But do so for the right reasons!!

SORRY...it's early, I'm preaching.

Your Brother
John

[hardheadjarhead]

Groan...

This could get like a bad Chinese movie.

"Hah! My Five Jades Jumping Eagle Claw will defeat your Plum Blossom Fist!"

"We'll see about that! HAAAAAAAAH!!"

Thwack!

"Oh! I see you've studied Golden Buddha Palm! Well, that will be no match for my Spinning Lao Ma Leopard Claw!"

-------------

There are too many factors to consider when trying to assess a fight between two men or women of different styles. When attempting to do this, posters here can fall into the trap of trying to validate their lives through defending what they do.

I've never studied it, but Kenpo is a great art worthy of every bit of respect I can muster for it.

I've been doing TKD since Linda Rondstadt was thin, beautiful, and dating Governor Jerry Brown of California. In that time I've found that it is far better to share methods than pit them against one another.

And folks...anecdotes are fun...but don't a trend make. If you're a TKD guy who has successfully kicked a Kenpo guy in the head with a roundhouse, or you're a Kenpo guy who has frustrated a TKD guy's kicks and gotten in...GREAT. You've just shown your acumen. You did well. It did not raise the banner of your style to the heights of achievement for all to venerate and hold in awe.

And by the way, if any of you get into hot disagreement with me, whether you're a TKD person or a Kenpo-ist, I'll whack you with my Golden Buddha Palm.

Or something.

Regards,


Steve

[Brother John]

Sun Yi's(Claims to be a International Headquarters for TKD)


In my hometown, while I was still a TKD'ist we had a "Sun Yi's" academy move into town. The instructor's name was William Cody (Yes, Bill Cody....aka: Buffalo...he gets a kick out of seeing peoples faces while they realize that) and he was a 5th Dan at that time...I believe he's been given more stripes since then. Mr. Cody is a student of Mr. Yi himself. Myself and another high ranking student/friend of mine went to his school as a 'good will' gesture. He recieved us warmly and talked for some time. Then it became apparent that we were keeping him from his task of sheet-rocking his new school that wasn't yet open for business. So my friend and I rolled up our sleeves and spent the afternoon helping him put up the sheet-rock. He was a fine guy and gave us a couple of free lessons too, as well as an open invitation to work out at his school whenever we like. We also aranged for him to meet our instructor...which they did and became fast friends. ((the town was, and probably still is, ripe for martial arts schools...so the two saw this as an opportunity to advance TKD in the town...not so much as a competition))
Good guy, Good school, Good art/association.

Years later I moved to Wichita and met another one of Master Yi's students. I just got to talking with a co-worker and the subject of martial arts came up. He told me that he was a 5th Dan under Master Yi too!!! I never saw him move, but he was a quality guy! You could tell he was a fine black belt just by how he treated people and carried himself. Character!

I guess Master Yi is located in your town (Topeka) Mark. I think that's what they mean by the "international headquarters".
In all honesty, from my experience with two of his higher ranking students, he's a good instructor with a good traditional TKD style.

Just thought I'd share.
Bout time we all had some positive things to say about arts/schools that aren't our own.

Your Brother
John

[kenpo tiger]

Brother John,

You said:
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!

What types of kicks did you learn in kenpo that you weren't given in tkd? I found that, as I stated previously, most all of the kicks I've had to do in kenpo have been: basic, ones I know, and yes, done low. Yes, I prefer kenpo to tkd for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that my body type is better suited for kenpo (short with short legs) and I feel that I am still much quicker and more skilled with my hands despite my tkd training. However, having those tkd skills is useful to keep the big guys back far enough during sparring so that I can work an opening to get inside. You're fortunate that your instructor knew tkd also and was able to help you with your kicks.

It's all about getting there first with the most and getting out. KT

[Brother John]

Brother John,

You said:
Yet, when I got into American Kenpo...they taught me kicks that I'd never seen or known of in TKD!! What's more, my instructor took my TKD kicks and taught me varied methods of execution with them... so that my arsenal of kicks doubled or trippled w/in a month!! NO KIDDING!!!

What types of kicks did you learn in kenpo that you weren't given in tkd? I found that, as I stated previously, most all of the kicks I've had to do in kenpo have been: basic, ones I know, and yes, done low. Yes, I prefer kenpo to tkd for a myriad of reasons, not the least of which is that my body type is better suited for kenpo (short with short legs) and I feel that I am still much quicker and more skilled with my hands despite my tkd training. However, having those tkd skills is useful to keep the big guys back far enough during sparring so that I can work an opening to get inside. You're fortunate that your instructor knew tkd also and was able to help you with your kicks.

It's all about getting there first with the most and getting out. KT
actually my Kenpo instructor had just a passing familiarity with TKD, what he did was observe what I was doing and perfect it.

I don't want to turn this into a big "technical" discussion, BUT
many of the TKD kicks chamber at different locations, my Kenpo instructor taught me how to chamber all of them from ONE location...so the beginning of all of my kicks Looks exactly the same. This has the overall effect of making it difficult for my opponent to read my intentions at the chamber. It also has the effect of letting me change the kick mid-flight without diminishing the speed or power. MUCH more versatile.
Some of the changes on the kicks were just a matter of changing the method of execution: Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering...
or changes in angles
There are a couple of kicks that required NO chamber, are low and work primarily on the large muscles of the upper and lower legs.
He taught me three new variations on the back kick
he showed me how to position my hip differently during a roundhouse in order to increase the power and speed of my roundhouse kicks....which also made my 'repeating' roundhouse kicks much more effective...now they fire out there with increasing power on the successive kicks.
My kicking form is more effective and practical now as well. When I teach them to my students they have NO balance problems.
BUT: as I said before, most anything above my own belly button.....
nope.
Doesn't fit with the overall strategy.

Your Brother
John

[Mark Weiser]

This is what is all about folks recongizing that each art is good in its own right and if studied and mastered then you are a force to be recongized.

The Kenpo Creed states that I will honor all Arts and its Students. So I for one am willling to learn from any MA if it will assist me in my study of MA. TKD or Kenpo or Gung-Fu, Etc....


Mark E. Weiser

[Michael Billings]

Great posts and discussion.

First, I do know a Kenpoist who went to Moo Duk Kwan TKD after getting his 1st or 2nd Black in Kenpo. He got a Black belt, then brought what he learned back into his school. It also served as his thesis, written, and form. He is now a 7th Black in Kenpo.

Combination kicks, jump kicks, jump double kicks (aka Chicken Kicks, [front, side, and rear]) are in Kicking Set #2

Other kicks not found in TKD:



Scoops
Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
Vertical Heel (reference Five Swords for those that know the extension or older Tracy version where it is included)
Thrusting Sweep
Inverted ball kick
Twist Kick

But the big difference is the use of legs as weapons in ways other than kicking, e.g. for buckles, checks, sweeps, etc.

Still, the power, focus, balance, of TKD kicks ... and you just plain spend so many darn hours doing them, as compared to the average Kenpoist, means that their kicks MAY look better given an equivalent time in the Art.

Bad news, it takes Kenpo guys so long to promote between belts, we usually saw TKD guys get to black in the time it took us to get to blue or green. Problematic when it is an open tournament and you have a 7 year brown belt that can ... and does win the Black division, no other training than kenpo, either.

-Michael

[jfarnsworth]

Excellent points sir! :asian:

[TigerWoman]

Other kicks not found in TKD:


Scoops
Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
Vertical Heel (reference Five Swords for those that know the extension or older Tracy version where it is included)
Thrusting Sweep
Inverted ball kick
Twist Kick

But the big difference is the use of legs as weapons in ways other than kicking, e.g. for buckles, checks, sweeps, etc.

-Michael

Its interesting to see the differences. In our TKD school, we do a ball kick similar to a round kick. We also do the twist kick also. We do some sweeps, standing and on the floor. What is a vertical heel, and knife edge, if I may ask? Is knife edge like a low crescent? Vertical heel like an axe kick in TKD? Just wondered. TW

[jfarnsworth]

Its interesting to see the differences. In our TKD school, we do a ball kick similar to a round kick. We also do the twist kick also. We do some sweeps, standing and on the floor. What is a vertical heel, and knife edge, if I may ask? Is knife edge like a low crescent? Vertical heel like an axe kick in TKD? Just wondered. TW
The ball kick may have a slightly different version depending upon your kenpo lineage. I would say from my experience that if a person is laying on their side and you were perpindicular to the opponent a low line front snap ball kick could be applied to the ribs. Followed closely behind the ball would be a heel kick or commonly known to me as a shovel kick.

Vertical heel hook kick would be if the attacker was bent over as you were checking them down with some type of various check, maybe you were to raise your right leg directly up and vertical to deliver a heel kick to the solar plexus or any available target on the centerline of the attacker.

Knife edge side kick instead of a heel. It as a smaller weapon has a chance at striking a target due to profile or kicking out the side of a knee as you have a longer width wise weapon to minimize margin for error of missing the knee. Hopefully this helps and is similar to what Mr. Billing's ideas he was trying to give.
:asian:

[Han-Mi]

The ball kick may have a slightly different version depending upon your kenpo lineage. I would say from my experience that if a person is laying on their side and you were perpindicular to the opponent a low line front snap ball kick could be applied to the ribs. Followed closely behind the ball would be a heel kick or commonly known to me as a shovel kick.

Vertical heel hook kick would be if the attacker was bent over as you were checking them down with some type of various check, maybe you were to raise your right leg directly up and vertical to deliver a heel kick to the solar plexus or any available target on the centerline of the attacker.

Knife edge side kick instead of a heel. It as a smaller weapon has a chance at striking a target due to profile or kicking out the side of a knee as you have a longer width wise weapon to minimize margin for error of missing the knee. Hopefully this helps and is similar to what Mr. Billing's ideas he was trying to give.
:asian:
I have learned all these kicks but, my instructor is very eclectic and may have learned them from other styles. The one I would like to address is the knife-edge side kick. My instructor went to Korea about 10 years ago to test for his 4th dan, he was told by our GM that that was the only way to do the kick correctly. Since then, that's how we angle our foot, and I agree, it is a better weapon.


many of the TKD kicks chamber at different locations, my Kenpo instructor taught me how to chamber all of them from ONE location...so the beginning of all of my kicks Looks exactly the same. This has the overall effect of making it difficult for my opponent to read my intentions at the chamber. It also has the effect of letting me change the kick mid-flight without diminishing the speed or power. MUCH more versatile.
Some of the changes on the kicks were just a matter of changing the method of execution: Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering...
or changes in angles
John, it sounds to me as though you got a better teacher when you went to Kenpo.(no disrespect to your former teacher) As for chambering all your kicks from one spot, we actually teach that in the white belts for some kicks and a few harder ones we train higher in the ranks. All the rest, Whipping/snapping/thrusting/smothering or changes in angles, we do it all of the time. If kicking is gonna be your primary weapon you have to figure out every way to execute it possible. That's how we ended up with flashy kicks that don't really work in a fight, they tried it, and it was possible but, not effective. We practice those more for balance and body control than anything else.

As for the nay sayers, this post was just for fun. I enjoyed reading every reply and feel that I have gotten an insight from it. I realized before I posted it that there would be a lot of bias one way or the other but that is what makes it possible to choose one to win. no bias, no winner.

[rmcrobertson]

Well, let's see how many people I can tick off this morning.

1. James Lew is, patently, a dyed-in-the-wool badass. The likes of me do not fool with James Lew, or Hee Il Cho for that matter. We are too young and beautiful to die abruptly and horribly. I thought the fight scene was fun to watch, and--like all such fight scenes--ridiculous. Among other things, nobody takes shots like that and keeps fighting.

2. One of the guys where I train is 6' 10" tall. I used to run out, roundhouse him in the head a couple times, then run away. Regrettably, about the time he got to 1st brown, he started slapping my foot down and smiling. An eldritch, evil smile. Life has not been good since then.

3. If you think kenpo has no high kicks to the head--yes, with people standing, you're wrong. Peruse the endings.

4. It is my impression that there are more crappy TKD studios out there than any other martial art, though there also seem to be plenty of crappy kenpo studios, and a growing number of gawdawful jiu-jitsu studios.

5. Of the--maybe four?--TKD people I've trained with and in a couple cases taught, what really sticks in my mind is how gawdawful their kicks were. There was no power, the stances were terrible, the form was sloppy, and worst of all, the students didn't seem to have a foundation laid down on which to develop. I was shocked, and no, I'm not kidding.

6. Again, my point was that kenpo is simply a more-comprehensive art. Other things being roughly equal, a kenpo guy's got a better chance. Does this guarantee anything? Oh, hell no. I'm pretty sure that I know way more about martial arts than Mike Tyson. Anybody want to stick us in a ring and bet on me?

[Han-Mi]

Awsome post... I hope you get a good TKDist to train with so that you can understand the true potential of our art. Still, an awsome post, and I just felt I had to say that.

[Flatlander]

I'm pretty sure that I know way more about martial arts than Mike Tyson. Anybody want to stick us in a ring and bet on me?

If you do, remember to wear earmuffs. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif

[kenpo tiger]

Combination kicks, jump kicks, jump double kicks (aka Chicken Kicks, [front, side, and rear]) are in Kicking Set #2

Which is learned at which level? I assume black ii or higher.

Other kicks not found in TKD:

Scoops
Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
This is one I have been taught in both tkd and karate. Chamber and foot position vary.

Inverted ball kick
Twist Kick
Learned both of these from one of my tkd instructors who used to train everywhere and in every art he could, so I don't know if it's tkd or just him.

I also read your explanations to TigerWoman. I think, and no disrespect meant, it's a question of 'you say tomato and i say tohmahtoh'. Then again, as someone else pointed out, this a fun discussion and it's quite interesting reading everyone's take on things. Just goes to show that we all enjoy getting information from everywhere because you can always learn something if you ask. Thank you. KT

[Rob Broad]

I am surprised that none of the kenpo people mentioned the slicing knife edge kick.

[hardheadjarhead]

Other kicks not found in TKD:



Scoops
Knife-Edge (as vs. side thrust kick, which we also to teach)
Vertical Heel (reference Five Swords for those that know the extension or older Tracy version where it is included)
Thrusting Sweep
Inverted ball kick
Twist Kick

But the big difference is the use of legs as weapons in ways other than kicking, e.g. for buckles, checks, sweeps, etc.

Still, the power, focus, balance, of TKD kicks ... and you just plain spend so many darn hours doing them, as compared to the average Kenpoist, means that their kicks MAY look better given an equivalent time in the Art.

Bad news, it takes Kenpo guys so long to promote between belts, we usually saw TKD guys get to black in the time it took us to get to blue or green. Problematic when it is an open tournament and you have a 7 year brown belt that can ... and does win the Black division, no other training than kenpo, either.

-Michael


Good point: The time difference in ranks and how it affects perceptions in skill. We see this in a lot of systems. At my school it'll take a person about five years to get to black. Across town, two years. It took two of my second dan women six years to go from second to third because they messed around. Other schools take a person from white to third in eight years.

The kicks "not found in TKD": Hard to say, not having witnessed them. We have something called a twist kick. Some of the others sound the same as the ones we do.

I'd ask people to note that TKD is hardly a monolith. If you have a bad school in your town and judge ALL TKD by what they do or fail to do, you're permitting yourself a narrow world view. Not all schools practice Olympic style fighting. Not all schools limit themselves to that. Granted...and I admit this freely...there are a LOT of cruddy TKD schools out there that lack balance in training. But there are also some very good ones that focus on pragmatic self defense.

Regards,


Steve

[TigerWoman]

The ball kick may have a slightly different version depending upon your kenpo lineage. I would say from my experience that if a person is laying on their side and you were perpindicular to the opponent a low line front snap ball kick could be applied to the ribs. Followed closely behind the ball would be a heel kick or commonly known to me as a shovel kick.

Vertical heel hook kick would be if the attacker was bent over as you were checking them down with some type of various check, maybe you were to raise your right leg directly up and vertical to deliver a heel kick to the solar plexus or any available target on the centerline of the attacker.

Knife edge side kick instead of a heel. It as a smaller weapon has a chance at striking a target due to profile or kicking out the side of a knee as you have a longer width wise weapon to minimize margin for error of missing the knee. Hopefully this helps and is similar to what Mr. Billing's ideas he was trying to give.
:asian:

The ball kick is a football kick (front, scoop) to us. The vertical heel is a axe kick to us. The knife edge is one we don't use on the knee. Again, thanks for the descriptions, TW

[Michael Billings]

Kenpo's Twist kick is not like any I have seen in TKD. I have one of Pat Burleson's Black Belts as a student also and the twist kick he know was not one I had ... so they are completely different kicks.

-Michael

[TigerWoman]

Kenpo's Twist kick is not like any I have seen in TKD. I have one of Pat Burleson's Black Belts as a student also and the twist kick he know was not one I had ... so they are completely different kicks.

-Michael

I don't or didn't (not sure about that one) have a conventional TKD instructor, he incorporates alot of other stuff into the curriculum. So I'm not sure what is really TKD originated or borrowed. Can you describe the twist kick you are talking about? TW

[Nightingale]

I picked up the chicken kicks around purple belt, I think, and jumping spinning crescents at blue or green.

[jfarnsworth]

The vertical heel is a axe kick to us.

How about the axe flipped over? Instead of the axe coming down the vertical heel hook comes upward.

[jfarnsworth]

I am surprised that none of the kenpo people mentioned the slicing knife edge kick.

Ah yes, the slicing knife edge, looping roundhouse kicks, one of my personal favorites is jumping in the air while landing in the close kneel w/the spiking action downward roundhouse. :)

[Sarah]

B: It's the Heart of the artist, not the art of the artist that matters.


I really like that comment.

I know nothing about Kenpo, don’t even know if we have it here in New Zealand, is it anything like Kempo?? I train in a TKD based art, haven’t trained in traditional TKD. I am also starting Jujitsu soon.

Saying that I can’t compare the two, what I do know is I have a passion for martial arts in general and everything that encompasses.

[Storm]

I know nothing about Kenpo, don’t even know if we have it here in New Zealand, .

There is LTKKA in Auckland (Kenpo) and NZKKA in Wellington. They both follow Larry Tatums curriculums. :)

[Sarah]

There is LTKKA in Auckland (Kenpo) and NZKKA in Wellington. They both follow Larry Tatums curriculums. :)Thanks for that, I'll look into it, am interested to see what it is all about.

[8253]

personally i prefer Kenpo, as far as a fight between the two it just depends on whether it is on Monday or Tuesday that determines who wins or who looses.

[Han-Mi]

personally i prefer Kenpo, as far as a fight between the two it just depends on whether it is on Monday or Tuesday that determines who wins or who looses.Good times

[bignick]

i've always enjoyed listening to a "art vs. art" debate...and i especially like it when the point comes up, what if two equally good fighters from each style fought...of course art 1 people are gonna say that art 1 will win and art 2 will stick with art 2...but if there were two equally matched fighters it it would be a draw...it goes back to the old adage of "33 1/3%"...which is your chances of surviving a fight to the death...if your opponent is better, you lose, you die, if you are better you win, your opponent dies, if you equally matched, you draw...which usually means you both die....moreover...someone that has studied either style any period of time should have a sense of when it's appropriate to use what they've learned...so they'd never fight each other on the street...and i haven't heard about any tkd/kenpo tournaments around...i think people should stop and think of what they will accomplish by bringing up a question like this...it's been discussed since the beginning of time...and my little speech won't put an end to it...but if there was one perfect art out there that had it all and worked for everybody...that's what we'd all be studying and there probably wouldn't be any other arts...

[Han-Mi]

but it's fun

[kenpo tiger]

Big Nick,

You don't say (and neither does your profile) in which art you train.
I agree with what you said about 'if there was one big art...' but - variety is what it's all about, isn't it? KT

[bignick]

sorry..i just joined a couple day ago to respond to a thread about grandmaster moo yong yun...like what i was seeing on the board so i decided to stay...and i've been to busy to really put anything in my profile...

If I had to describe myself...i would say tae kwon do is my core art, i have had the great fortune to work with great instructors and love it...but i also train very seriously in classical judo and jujitsu...

i know very little about kenpo, i know a person that trains in it because he also trains in judo/jujitsu...and what i've seen of him i'm very impressed...he's only a first dan, which i guess he's been for a long time because he's in the national gaurd and they decided to send him on a vacation to kuwait, he got back last year and has resumed training since...a lot of his technique excellent and he has great kime...but it's like they say...there are no superior martial arts...just superior martial artists...

[kenpo tiger]

I can't afford to talk. My profile says little or nothing about me, but you do know my art by my choice of screen name. I also offer information about my previous training in my posts, and am curious as to other people's ma experience. I've been told I ask a lot of questions, but that's how I learn!

Thanks for taking the time to explain. :asian: KT

[Hanzo04]

I have always wanted to do tkd my whole life and i finally got the opportunity when i was 18. now i am about to be a bb in about 8 months. but i quickly found that tkd was lacking significant hand strikes. and that's why so many taekwondoist switch to kenpo. i believe you need fast hands for fast kicks. that's why i'm also taking kenpo-to develop good hand strikes. kicks aren't enough to be a complete matial artist.

as for the two arts going head to head, it really depends on the practitioners. my tkd instructor is extremely fast with his kicks and he also holds a bbelt in hapkido which is strictly self-defense. so for now i would have to go with tkd since all th instructors at TMA know hapkido and TKD. i don't know to many kenpoist.