how hard do you hit a heavybag

[cfr]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.

[8253]

I usually hit the heavy bag pretty much as hard as i can. It does hurt sometimes though. This is usually when i will tone it down a bit for a while. Then i go back to hitting it hard. I usually only hurt my wrists when i get to relaxed and do not keep my wrists locked straight.

[OC Kid]

How hard I hit depends on my workout. sometimes for speed sometines for power so 1/2 speed and full power or full speed and half power or both full speed and full power.
I think your injuries are do to prep.

Do you wrap your hands?

Do you ear good quality bag gloves?

Is your heavy bag a good one. By good meaning is it a well stuffed bag that makes it feel like hitting a body, or one of those macho bags full of sand that will kill your body?

These are things you must do to aviod injury.

[Tony]

When I trained on my bag, I would hit it with all my strength as if I were actually fighting a real person.

[oldnewbie]

I hit pretty hard as well. I also use gloves, etc...

[MJS]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.

What kind of injuries are you getting??? If its a hand related injury, it could be that you're not using proper form during the punch. Try wrapping your hands and/or using bag gloves.

But, to answer your question. I take advantage of the heavy bag time to use some good power. Its one thing to throw punches in the air, but you cant really go all out. Again, still keep in mind, that its very important to use good form. I've seen people "hitting' the bag, and they look like they have no idea as to what they're doing.

Mike

[ppko]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.
What kind of injuries are you getting one thing that might help you out is punching with 3/4 turn puch it is the strongest punch that you can have (by strongest I mean the mechanichs) it will give you a stronger wrist and allow you to punch longer.

Best Regards
PPKO :EG: :mad: :waah:

[OC Kid]

Joe Lewis has a good video out on bag work, actually it is 2 videos. They might help you.,

[cfr]

What kind of injuries are you getting???
Mike

Ankle and shoulder.

[ppko]

I would definately try the 3/4 turn punch than

PPKO :EG: :mad: :waah:

[iTsDaNNy]

you have to allow time for your wrist to get conditioned. Within time you will have that bag flying all over the place

[Enson]

if your hurting yourself then you should probably ease up a bit on that certain punch. there are times that i get sore or banged up and i will just focus on other things till i feel up to doing those techniques again. defenitly try and heal completely before tearing up the bag again. even if you wrap your wrist now you still will have internal impact that will never heal right if you don't let it. try kicking awhile. i know my advise is pretty simplistic but its what i do and it seems to work.

[Zujitsuka]

In the boxing gym, we usually hit the bag at about half power. During the last 30 seconds of a three minutes round, we would pick up the pace and the power. If you always hit a bag full power, you will definitely acquire some type of 'over-use' injury to your wrists and/or shoulders. Also, if you are planning to do heavy bag work, make sure to wrap your hands to protect your knuckles and your wrists, and of course, wear bag gloves.

Peace & health,

[Firona]

Also, if you are planning to do heavy bag work, make sure to wrap your hands to protect your knuckles and your wrists, and of course, wear bag gloves.

Peace & health,Good advice right there. I tore the skin off of my knuckles the first few times I used a canvas heavy bag. As far as ankle and shoulder injuries go I am not sure how you would prevent that unless maybe you are going too hard too quickly, a warmup sort of thing like the others have been saying might be all you need.

[TigerWoman]

Hard but not often. Repetitive overuse syndrome. Train differently. Somedays upperbody, somedays both light-med., somedays lower, somedays cardiovascular. Give body parts a break and time to rebuild stronger not tear down from repetitive use. TW

[AdrenalineJunky]

Good advice right there. I tore the skin off of my knuckles the first few times I used a canvas heavy bag. As far as ankle and shoulder injuries go I am not sure how you would prevent that unless maybe you are going too hard too quickly, a warmup sort of thing like the others have been saying might be all you need.A heavy bag workout is just like any other workout. Theoretically, you should have a warm-up, hard workout, then a cool-down. I do 4X3 min rounds on the bag and jump rope for 1 min in-between each round. I wear wraps on my hands, and, for 2 rounds, 18oz. gloves. I go as hard and as fast as I can for 2 rounds, doing 25 round kicks and elbows on each side after the timer goes. If you keep doing it, your body will become conditioned. I went out to the lake yesterday and, after two months of jumping rope in the street, barefoot, I noticed that I had no problem walking on the rocks. Same thing with the bag. My bag and my thai pads are the best conditioning tools I have, and the scrapes and bruises are well worth the outcome.

AJ

[kenpo tiger]

In the boxing gym, we usually hit the bag at about half power. During the last 30 seconds of a three minutes round, we would pick up the pace and the power. If you always hit a bag full power, you will definitely acquire some type of 'over-use' injury to your wrists and/or shoulders. Also, if you are planning to do heavy bag work, make sure to wrap your hands to protect your knuckles and your wrists, and of course, wear bag gloves.

Peace & health,
I agree. I might also add that you should ask someone who knows how to wrap their hands to show you the correct way to do it.

I realize this thread addresses just heavy bag, but --
- do you alternate punching with kicking to give your hands a rest, as TigerWoman suggests?
- do you practice your punches on other bags - i.e., speed bag - so that the workout isn't always the same?

You also don't have to wale away at the bag the entire time, as the quote above states. (must be a guy thing:) , although I DO love how empowering it feels to hit hard.) KT:asian:

[AdrenalineJunky]

I agree. I might also add that you should ask someone who knows how to wrap their hands to show you the correct way to do it.

I realize this thread addresses just heavy bag, but --
- do you alternate punching with kicking to give your hands a rest, as TigerWoman suggests?
- do you practice your punches on other bags - i.e., speed bag - so that the workout isn't always the same?

You also don't have to wale away at the bag the entire time, as the quote above states. (must be a guy thing:) , although I DO love how empowering it feels to hit hard.) KT:asian:
KT, as always, you give good advise. However, I think this question should be geared more to what it is this person expects to accomplish. I work the heavy bag hard and fast because that is the type of conditioning I will need for ring fighting. How hard to hit the bag. . .no harder than it takes to accomplish what you wish to using that specific tool. For me, the heavy bag is a tool used to simulate fighting another person for multiple 3min rounds (minus the counters, lol). It's not for cardio, it does not substitute pad work, sparring etc. It's sole purpose in my workout is to beat the living poo out of it. ". . .must be a guy thing. . ." lol, I like it! I doubt it, but who am I to argue?

AJ

[kenpo tiger]

KT, as always, you give good advise. However, I think this question should be geared more to what it is this person expects to accomplish. I work the heavy bag hard and fast because that is the type of conditioning I will need for ring fighting. How hard to hit the bag. . .no harder than it takes to accomplish what you wish to using that specific tool. For me, the heavy bag is a tool used to simulate fighting another person for multiple 3min rounds (minus the counters, lol). It's not for cardio, it does not substitute pad work, sparring etc. It's sole purpose in my workout is to beat the living poo out of it. ". . .must be a guy thing. . ." lol, I like it! I doubt it, but who am I to argue?

AJ
True, forgot that people DO use the heavy bag for more than conditioning. Thanks for keeping me honest AJ (and for the compliment:asian:.) KT

[AdrenalineJunky]

True, forgot that people DO use the heavy bag for more than conditioning. Thanks for keeping me honest AJ (and for the compliment:asian:.) KT
No problem, KT. Just returning the favor, as so many of your posts keep many of US honest, lol! :asian:

AJ

[Brother John]

you have to allow time for your wrist to get conditioned. Within time you will have that bag flying all over the place

I agree with "Danniel my brother"...
You've got to work up to it.
Use GLOVES!!!

work on proper weapon formation!!!
I don't understand how bag work is affecting your ankle... you mean with kicks??

Do you have any regularly occuring joint problems?

Your Brother
John

[cfr]

I realize this thread addresses just heavy bag, but --
- do you alternate punching with kicking to give your hands a rest, as TigerWoman suggests?
- do you practice your punches on other bags - i.e., speed bag - so that the workout isn't always the same?



Probably not enough. Yes.

[AdrenalineJunky]

Probably not enough. Yes.
cfr, what is it that you wish to accomplish re: your heavy bag work? Let's start there.

AJ

[DeLamar.J]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.
When I do heavy bag training I hit as hard as I can most of the time. If your going to do hard bag work make sure to go up to dicks sporting goods and get yourself some good handwraps and bag gloves so you dont get a wrist injury. Never ever hit on the bag hard without hand wraps and bag gloves or your asking for it. And if you want to condition your knucles hit on a kom bon, I think thats how you spell it. Alot of people will hit the bag with no gloves for knucle conditioning, I think its a bad idea. :boxing:

[RHD]

Hit the heavy bag with palm strikes as hard as you like! Less chance of injury, more powerful striking. If it's a "fists only" situation then 3/4 turn punches as PPKO stated for reverse punches and definately wrap those hqands and wrists. Heavy bags are often treated as blasting bags...The idea here is to work up to this slowly over a longer period of time and then work at varying levels of power and speed. slower to work on technique, harder for power, faster for speed, etc...

Mike

[cfr]

I always use bag gloves. My goal is to hit harder. I hurt my shoulder doing a chest high elbow.

[AdrenalineJunky]

I always use bag gloves. My goal is to hit harder. I hurt my shoulder doing a chest high elbow.
Really, maybe you should be practicing technique? I've never really "hurt" myself on the bag, that seems to happen more in sparring, lol. Maybe your strikes aren't being executed properly? I literally fold my bag in half with elbow strikes, i can't see how you'd be getting hurt. I my experience, though limited compared to others, speed and power are all derived from good technique. Maybe you could explain how you are striking the bag, and that might help? I can give you tons of bag drills to do for conditioning, i.e. toughening up your body for sparring and the like, as well as improving your stamina.

AJ

[DeLamar.J]

I always use bag gloves. My goal is to hit harder. I hurt my shoulder doing a chest high elbow.
Ahh, sounds like you just need to condition your body. It takes a little time to get used to blasting a heavy bag without hurting yourself. I have trained in boxing most of my life and I still hurt my wrist at times when Im feeling winded and weak, then throw a hard shot without proper tension in my wrist because of feeling tired and getting sloppy. Just take it slow and condition your body, and work on technique.

[kenpo tiger]

Really, maybe you should be practicing technique? I've never really "hurt" myself on the bag, that seems to happen more in sparring, lol. Maybe your strikes aren't being executed properly? I literally fold my bag in half with elbow strikes, i can't see how you'd be getting hurt. I my experience, though limited compared to others, speed and power are all derived from good technique. Maybe you could explain how you are striking the bag, and that might help? I can give you tons of bag drills to do for conditioning, i.e. toughening up your body for sparring and the like, as well as improving your stamina.

AJ
So, share! Can only help us all. Thanks. KT

p.s. - love doing elbow strikes on the bag - and palm strikes. have yet to fold it in half, but i'm working on it.

[AdrenalineJunky]

So, share! Can only help us all. Thanks. KT

p.s. - love doing elbow strikes on the bag - and palm strikes. have yet to fold it in half, but i'm working on it.
Well, i frequently do what i call step(ladder)-striking. Something my old instructor had me do. I set the timer to three minutes and do twenty-five reps of each of my strikes (various punches, kicks+ knees and elbows) until the three min is up. The idea is to fatigue yourself by executing the strikes as hard and as fast as possible. Another that i do is set the timer to one minute and do as many reps of one strike as i can do. In this exercise I try to circle the bag, first one direction, then back. With nobody holding the bag, this can be trickier than you'd think. Another great bag trick, which I also use with pads, is to do 25 reps of a particular strike, after your bag/pad round is done. That really wears you out. Additionally, for stamina, rather than rest 1min in-between your rounds, jump-rope. Also, just to clarify, I never just wail on the bag. I run drills with specific combinations. Save the mixing up for sparring, when you have to mix it up, otherwise i try to train my brain to immediately execute a series of combos as much as possible.

For the drills I only use my wraps. As far as conditioning goes, the wraps protect your knuckles just enough. I think fairtex.com has a link to show how to wrap your hands step-by-step. To condition myself for sparring I work the bag with 18oz. gloves. You'd be surprised how heavy 1 lb. can be! lol

For specific strikes, that's a bit harder, Muay Thai is pretty simple, just a lot of repetitious training. But I am happy to help with any more suggestions.

AJ

[Kane]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.I usually punch my punching bag bare-handed, and have never got any injuries ever. I was so overconfident; I then started to punch a much harder substance. I don't think it was built the same way as a hard punching bag or not. In fact, I think it was much harder (it was actually a large dummy you are supposed to hang on the wall). Anyway, on the second day of starting to punch this MUCH harder dummy bag, skin from my front large knuckle kind of got loose, and peeled a little. It actually didn't hurt that much. But it can sting if something falls in it. Nothing worse than that though.

Anyway, since then I wrap clothing around my knuckles and should be enough. Honestly, you don't need any fancy tape to protect you knuckles. Even a sock would work!

However, I've never punched a HARD punching bag, but I assume this dummy was harder so the same care should work fine. Cheers!

[AdrenalineJunky]

I usually punch my punching bag bare-handed, and have never got any injuries ever. I was so overconfident; I then started to punch a much harder substance. I don't think it was built the same way as a hard punching bag or not. In fact, I think it was much harder (it was actually a large dummy you are supposed to hang on the wall). Anyway, on the second day of starting to punch this MUCH harder dummy bag, skin from my front large knuckle kind of got loose, and peeled a little. It actually didn't hurt that much. But it can sting if something falls in it. Nothing worse than that though.

Anyway, since then I wrap clothing around my knuckles and should be enough. Honestly, you don't need any fancy tape to protect you knuckles. Even a sock would work!

However, I've never punched a HARD punching bag, but I assume this dummy was harder so the same care should work fine. Cheers!
Generally speaking, a heavy bag is a "hard" bag. I don't reccommend puching one without wraps, for the benefit of your wrists, too. wraps are like $5 at big five and a million other places.

[kenpo tiger]

You can get wraps for even less than that online. I got mine through my bag training instructor, who also showed me how to wrap my hands. Yes, you can practice with just the wraps, but I wouldn't recommend it unless your knuckles are used to it. I do my push-ups on my knuckles (used to do them on wood, also, but my current school doesn't encourage it) to condition them so they don't split when I hit something. Also, if you break wood as part of your curriculum, it helps.
AJ- thanks for the tips! I'll let you know how I do with them. KT

[AdrenalineJunky]

You can get wraps for even less than that online. I got mine through my bag training instructor, who also showed me how to wrap my hands. Yes, you can practice with just the wraps, but I wouldn't recommend it unless your knuckles are used to it. I do my push-ups on my knuckles (used to do them on wood, also, but my current school doesn't encourage it) to condition them so they don't split when I hit something. Also, if you break wood as part of your curriculum, it helps.AJ- thanks for the tips! I'll let you know how I do with them. KT
yeah, i do p-ups on my knuckles. . .i've always trained using just wraps. . .wasn't 'till i started sparring again that i used gloves. those little buggers can get heavy. also, i just use short wraps for training, rather than fight wraps. the short wraps don't go around your fingers, so more conditioning takes place. Also, if you need more bag tips, let me know, they're simple but effective. happy ma ing all!

AJ

[Ippon Ken]

If you are a karate-ka, then you will want to work up to hitting the heavy bag with full force, speed and strength, w/o wraps or gloves. If you're a young person (younger than 15-16) then you might want to initially wrap your hands, until your knuckles, wrists and bones get use to the impact. If you do makiwara work you'll find that hitting the heavybag w/o gloves or wraps is actually really easy. If you have never hit something as solid as a heavybag, then work your way up to doing it full force. You can start by doing knuckle push-ups (first two knuckles only), adequate upper body stretching and light makiwara work. Use focus mitts and smaller striking pads first, start hitting the heavybag with control, not reckless abandon. This is why real MAs take years to master. Those that force the issue often wind-up being more damaging to the practititioner than any assumed foe could ever be.

If you are a yudansha level karate-ka, and you still use wraps/gloves and hit the bag only 1/2-3/4 force then you are not a real karate-ka. You are going through the motions, but a heavybag is really not a rough or hard surface for a properly trained BB, and so if you use hand protection then you are selling your art and training short. In the street every strike is full force, with bad intention(s) behind them. No set-ups or soft jabs, just crisp punches that go through the target, never overextend them. You need to condition your body for hard contact, bone-on-bone, and although this can be accomplished with koteate/kotekitai, kumite and such, you'll never be able to truly have the confidence or "iron body" needed to make karate really street effective. This is what's missing in many dojo nowadays.

If you are injuring your joints, then you need to increase your overall strength and flexibilty by stretching your whole body before and after doing bag work, and by lifting weights. If you do the traditional hojo undo of Okinawan karate, where you use earthen jars, chi-ishi and such then you are a step ahead of most modern karate-ka. If you don't have access to these tools of the trade weight lifting will definitely help your joints and bones, as well as ligaments and other connective tissue strength. You also need to use proper biomechanics. Keep your elbows in on linear punches and don't wing any of your punches, even the hooks. Strike using hip rotation (the body as a unit) and the power of rising and falling. Keep your fist vertical or better yet at a 3/4 turn (in between vertical and flat/horizontal). Do kata with focus and good structural "ki" and you'll increase sinew strength, too.

For your kicks, learn to whip them through the target in a relaxed manner, bringing your leg back quickly as soon as you penetrate the target. Get both legs back in your base as fast as possible. Balance is the key to movement and fighting. Doing that baseball bat MT kick as a novice will lead to personal injury. This is even true of the MT practitioners who do these haymaker, over extended strikes for a living. Many are crippled before 55 and that is the main reason you don't see 70 year old MT masters on the whole. You can practice push kicks and thrusts, but fast kicks are what will give you a chance to get the weapon there. The strength will come with time and increased speed.

One last thing. If you are working on a community bag, like a bag at the your local gym, using weight gloves or light wraps might be a good idea for infection control. You don't know who's been hitting it and if they bled on it, they may have Hepatitis or some other blood-borne disease. Although the chances are slim you'd contract the disease, it is better to be safe than sorry. Using an inch of wrap or padded bag gloves is for boxers and beginning karateka, not people who will need to hit without big cushions on their hands. Light wraps will be adequate protection from "bugs" and such.

Remember that the last 3 knuckles do not articulate (make contact with) the "wrist bones". Styles that teach hitting hard targets with the middle, ring and pinky finger knuckles are suspect. If their masters really understood the mechanics of delivering a hard and effective bare-knuckle punch, they would never teach the incorrect method (JKD and Wing Chun come to mind). The first two knuckles are in line with the bigger bone of your forearm (the radius) and they articulate with the wrist bones. For this reason contact with your target should be made primarily with these knuckles, the others taking a very minor load. I write this stuff to help out. Take it or leave it, but this where supplemental training differs amongst the various MAs and Combat Sports. Be careful of "Boxer's Fractures" and sprained wrists.

Peace and safe training...

[Shogun]

I hit a heavy bag pretty hard yesterday. I was shin kicking at full force w/no injury, but My knuckles are a little swollen.

[AdrenalineJunky]

If you are a karate-ka, then you will want to work up to hitting the heavy bag with full force, speed and strength, w/o wraps or gloves. If you're a young person (younger than 15-16) then you might want to initially wrap your hands, until your knuckles, wrists and bones get use to the impact. If you do makiwara work you'll find that hitting the heavybag w/o gloves or wraps is actually really easy. If you have never hit something as solid as a heavybag, then work your way up to doing it full force. You can start by doing knuckle push-ups (first two knuckles only), adequate upper body stretching and light makiwara work. Use focus mitts and smaller striking pads first, start hitting the heavybag with control, not reckless abandon. This is why real MAs take years to master. Those that force the issue often wind-up being more damaging to the practititioner than any assumed foe could ever be.

If you are a yudansha level karate-ka, and you still use wraps/gloves and hit the bag only 1/2-3/4 force then you are not a real karate-ka. You are going through the motions, but a heavybag is really not a rough or hard surface for a properly trained BB, and so if you use hand protection then you are selling your art and training short. In the street every strike is full force, with bad intention(s) behind them. No set-ups or soft jabs, just crisp punches that go through the target, never overextend them. You need to condition your body for hard contact, bone-on-bone, and although this can be accomplished with koteate/kotekitai, kumite and such, you'll never be able to truly have the confidence or "iron body" needed to make karate really street effective. This is what's missing in many dojo nowadays.

If you are injuring your joints, then you need to increase your overall strength and flexibilty by stretching your whole body before and after doing bag work, and by lifting weights. If you do the traditional hojo undo of Okinawan karate, where you use earthen jars, chi-ishi and such then you are a step ahead of most modern karate-ka. If you don't have access to these tools of the trade weight lifting will definitely help your joints and bones, as well as ligaments and other connective tissue strength. You also need to use proper biomechanics. Keep your elbows in on linear punches and don't wing any of your punches, even the hooks. Strike using hip rotation (the body as a unit) and the power of rising and falling. Keep your fist vertical or better yet at a 3/4 turn (in between vertical and flat/horizontal). Do kata with focus and good structural "ki" and you'll increase sinew strength, too.

For your kicks, learn to whip them through the target in a relaxed manner, bringing your leg back quickly as soon as you penetrate the target. Get both legs back in your base as fast as possible. Balance is the key to movement and fighting. Doing that baseball bat MT kick as a novice will lead to personal injury. This is even true of the MT practitioners who do these haymaker, over extended strikes for a living. Many are crippled before 55 and that is the main reason you don't see 70 year old MT masters on the whole. You can practice push kicks and thrusts, but fast kicks are what will give you a chance to get the weapon there. The strength will come with time and increased speed.

One last thing. If you are working on a community bag, like a bag at the your local gym, using weight gloves or light wraps might be a good idea for infection control. You don't know who's been hitting it and if they bled on it, they may have Hepatitis or some other blood-borne disease. Although the chances are slim you'd contract the disease, it is better to be safe than sorry. Using an inch of wrap or padded bag gloves is for boxers and beginning karateka, not people who will need to hit without big cushions on their hands. Light wraps will be adequate protection from "bugs" and such.

Remember that the last 3 knuckles do not articulate (make contact with) the "wrist bones". Styles that teach hitting hard targets with the middle, ring and pinky finger knuckles are suspect. If their masters really understood the mechanics of delivering a hard and effective bare-knuckle punch, they would never teach the incorrect method (JKD and Wing Chun come to mind). The first two knuckles are in line with the bigger bone of your forearm (the radius) and they articulate with the wrist bones. For this reason contact with your target should be made primarily with these knuckles, the others taking a very minor load. I write this stuff to help out. Take it or leave it, but this where supplemental training differs amongst the various MAs and Combat Sports. Be careful of "Boxer's Fractures" and sprained wrists.

Peace and safe training...Not sure how to respond to this. . .kinda sounds like you're covertly knocking muay thai and wrapping in the guise of advise???
Doing that baseball bat MT kick as a novice will lead to personal injury. [to others] This is even true of the MT practitioners who do these haymaker, over extended strikes for a living. lol! Many are crippled before 55 and that is the main reason you don't see 70 year old MT masters on the whole. hahahahaha! i have my own reservations about "quick, snappy" kicks. . .lol.

As far as a bag. . .you want to hit it without wraps, dude?. . .be my guest. My canvas kick bag would wipe the skin right off of your knuckles, as would my everlast 40lb leather, I'm sure. But hey, iron-man. . .all preaching aside anyone who spends anytime training with a bag will tell you to use wraps. . .who the hell wants a broken wrist to prove that they're a real karate-ka? Besides, i would argue that an "iron brain" makes MA "really street effective,' not an "iron man." (to suggest mauy thai's non-effective, *laughing hysterically* lol!)

[Pittbull]

When working for power I blast the bag.I also do speed combos at about half power.I currenly do not were bag gloves or wrap my hands: The eason is we have a low buget and can't afford any right now.

[kenpo tiger]

I write this stuff to help out. Be careful of "Boxer's Fractures" and sprained wrists.

Peace and safe training...
You know, you make an awful lot of sense when you aren't promulgating rap culture in your posts. Lots of good ideas in this one. KT

[MichiganTKD]

I will use the heavy bag before class to warmup and get a sweat going. For this I use light-medium contact. I focus on rhythm, timing, footwork, and penetrating force, but not much speed. Just a warmup.
Toward the end of class, after I am warmed up and stretched more, I can go more full tilt. I utilize roundhouse kicks, back and sliding side kicks, and some back roundhouse kicks. For roundhouse kicks, I focus more on rhythm and penetrating force rather than how many I can do in a given time. Sandbag practice is more about rhythm and power, so it's not a speed contest.
Side kick time is about power-being able to rip into the bag. I try to fold the bag in half. The bag weighs about 75 lbs, so it takes some effort. However, I've known guys that could. I've never known a better way to develop good side kicking. Good for middle and high roundhouses too. Again, not speed kicking, but timing and penetrating force.
I don't wear bag gloves and have never suffered an injury from bag use. Well actually, when I was younger and had to do 100 high roundhouse kicks on the bag regularly, I used to strip the skin off my instep because my kicking angle was wrong. I learned the correct way after that.

[MJS]

Actually, when it comes to kicking the heavy bag, you're going to get much more power using the shin instead of the instep. If you're doing point fighting, then yeah, those snappy kicks with the instep are fine, but for SD, going with the shin is the better choice. A good example are MMA fights. How many snappy kicks with the instep do you see there???

Mike

[OC Kid]

I teach that the snap kicks are to be used like a boxers jab or a M/A back fist, just to set up another technique usually a power one.

[MJS]

I teach that the snap kicks are to be used like a boxers jab or a M/A back fist, just to set up another technique usually a power one.

Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. As I've said before, everything has its place, even snappy kicks. It all depends on what your goal is at the time of doing the kick. A quick snapping kick, with the front leg towards the groin is very effective, and not easily telegraphed. However, if you wanted to kick at your opps. leg, and really get some solid results, then the Thai style kick with the shin is your better choice.

Mike

[AdrenalineJunky]

Please dont misunderstand what I'm saying. As I've said before, everything has its place, even snappy kicks. It all depends on what your goal is at the time of doing the kick. A quick snapping kick, with the front leg towards the groin is very effective, and not easily telegraphed. However, if you wanted to kick at your opps. leg, and really get some solid results, then the Thai style kick with the shin is your better choice.

Mike
I suppose "snappy" kicks would be beneficial on a bag, aside from practicing for point sparring, by way of toning your leg muscles. But, as a "practicing" thai fighter I do heavy conditioning in an attempt to prepare my self to take those thai round kicks (hey, i can't block EVERYTHING). My bubbdy, who trains in kempo literally stopped using them (snap kicks) when sparring, because they were next to ineffective. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, like MJS said everthing has it's place. However, IMHO a jab as a lead in to a combo is a lot more safe than a kick, take that with a grain of salt. However, i would suggest going ot a boxing forum and asking. Those guys spend more time on bags than thai fighters do, and they will be able to tell you how condition yourself and keep you injury free when going 100%--the key word:100%. Hope everything's working out.

AJ

[OC Kid]

Ive done Thai and Kempo and Karate they all have their strong points. Like all things its personal preferance. Im guessing here but :

A Kempo practitioner fighting a Thai fighter has to change /limit his techniques. I dont think you allow groin kicks when you 2 spar for example, do you allow sweeps/ take downs?

So if you limit his techniques to spar that you dont use. Did you /would you as a Thai practitioner change your style to fight a kempo guy on HIS terms it would be different.
You both train differently using different techniques you cannot compare apples and oranges

[Zujitsuka]

I say again, wrap your hands and use bag gloves when hitting the heavy bag. Just like any other workout, do not go full power all the time as that will lead to overtraining and over-use injuries. Some of the senior black belts in the system that I train in have some of the ugliest, most deformed hands on the planet. Plus they have all type of wrist, elbow, and shoulder problems. Those guys have a background in Nisei Goju (back in the "Knockout Karate" days). Even though they had proper fist alignment and body mechanics when they threw punches at whatever hard surface they were striking, they are worse for wear today. I don't know for sure, but I hear that the founder of Kyokushin Kai Karatedo, Mas Oyama, was literally broken-down later in life because of the way he trained.

How are you going to be ready for battle if you hurt yourself in the dojo/gym?

Just like car shocks, your wrists and other joints can take but so much - even if you lift weights or whatever. Personally, I prefer open hand strikes. Guys like Tony Blauer (SPEAR), Richard Dimitri (Senshido, Inc.), and Systema and Bagua practitioners are on to something. However, working the heavy bag is a great workout and sort of an acid test to see if your mechanics are correct.

Also, here is an article about training smart so that you can preserve yourself as you age, http://www.blackbeltmag.com/document_display.cfm?document_id=197&keyword=bob%20and%20orlando&summary=1&startsum=1

Peace & health,

[MJS]

Just like car shocks, your wrists and other joints can take but so much - even if you lift weights or whatever. Personally, I prefer open hand strikes. Guys like Tony Blauer (SPEAR), Richard Dimitri (Senshido, Inc.), and Systema and Bagua practitioners are on to something. However, working the heavy bag is a great workout and sort of an acid test to see if your mechanics are correct.

Good point! Open handed strikes can be just as effective as a closed fist, and you dont run as much of a risk of hurting your hand. Something as simple as a slap can get some very good results.

Mike

[AdrenalineJunky]

Ive done Thai and Kempo and Karate they all have their strong points. Like all things its personal preferance. Im guessing here but :

A Kempo practitioner fighting a Thai fighter has to change /limit his techniques. I dont think you allow groin kicks when you 2 spar for example, do you allow sweeps/ take downs?

So if you limit his techniques to spar that you dont use. Did you /would you as a Thai practitioner change your style to fight a kempo guy on HIS terms it would be different.
You both train differently using different techniques you cannot compare apples and oranges
Actually, i do a lot of sweeps and stand up grappling that lead to take downs via heel trips and whatnot. I don't believe in rules when it comes to sparring. 'cept the groin thing. Acutally one of my best friends trains in kempo--just got his second stripe in brown not too long ago, woo-hoo!--and I spar w/him all the time. I need to learn how to adapt my style, because the odds these days--in my area--of having an altercation with somebody who's into cage fighting is increasing everytime the have one of those WWF w/kicks cage fights. And i think you can compare. . .this weekend i'll be hanging with my buddy, whom i haven't seen for a while. I think he's 3rd or 4th black in TSD or hawrangdo (sp???). and we'll proly work out, maybe some light sparring. All martial arts compare in some fashion, particularly when you are open to learning. Cheers!

AJ

[OC Kid]

I concurr

[Ippon Ken]

I suppose "snappy" kicks would be beneficial on a bag, aside from practicing for point sparring, by way of toning your leg muscles. But, as a "practicing" thai fighter I do heavy conditioning in an attempt to prepare my self to take those thai round kicks (hey, i can't block EVERYTHING). My bubbdy, who trains in kempo literally stopped using them (snap kicks) when sparring, because they were next to ineffective. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, like MJS said everthing has it's place. However, IMHO a jab as a lead in to a combo is a lot more safe than a kick, take that with a grain of salt. However, i would suggest going ot a boxing forum and asking. Those guys spend more time on bags than thai fighters do, and they will be able to tell you how condition yourself and keep you injury free when going 100%--the key word:100%. Hope everything's working out.

AJ
Not snap kicks, whip kicks. Snap kicks (mae geri keage) and thrust kicks (mae geri kekomi) are modern Japanized karate kicks. They are safe kicks not meant for anything but kumite (sparring). The kick I'm speaking of is the whip kick.

The whip-kick is very similar to the Thai Kick, but instead of extending all the way past or around the target, where position and balance may be affected, once you go through the target you immediately bring it back to the ground. It is the original kick of the Shuri Te systems (Shorin) and is rarely taught these days.

If you kick someone in the jaw with it, like Chuck Lidell often does, you'll most likely k.o. them. If you use your shoetips or toe tips to kick the femoral nerver/artery or even the outside thigh, it really penetrates and it'll stop'em in their tracks 9 times out of 10. You can also use the shin for in-close kicking, but practice making all points of contact tough- shins, insteps, big toes, blade-of-the-foot, heell, balls-of-the feet, ankle bones- that way you have more options.

I think I explained my position on a related thread. Maybe I am an Iron Guy but I think it has more to do with proper training for decades now more than freak-of-nature stuff. If you scrape your knuckles when you punch then you need to check your punching dynamics. Good form prevents scraping and delivering your punches straight in and back is what prevents this, as does eliminating pushing your techs. Crispness and form, that's the key (and something you get with proper kata training;)).

Peace and if I use Hip Hop terminology, I apologize. Like Okinawan karate it's been a part of me for over 20 years. (It's) Not contrived and "rap" lingo. It's the language of the transformation of the New World Slaughter to the True World Order, hahaha! Get with it or get gone!!! :)

[kenpo tiger]

"Peace and if I use Hip Hop terminology, I apologize. Like Okinawan karate it's been a part of me for over 20 years. (It's) Not contrived and "rap" lingo. It's the language of the transformation of the New World Slaughter to the True World Order, hahaha! Get with it or get gone!!! http://martialtalk.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif "

I have the feeling there's more to you than you let on. New World Slaughter indeed!:) No apologies necessary.

[kanjc]

I use a 100lb heavy bag and the only way have been able to avoid any injury is 1)wrap my hands and wrist and 2) I use the Tae Bo gloves that have the extra padding and the wrist support. I hit the bag as hard and as fast as I can, if I hit it with a glancing blow I am still going to hurt myself that is due to poor aim and not the power behind the punch.

[GAB]

Hello,

I just saw this post, I am going to answer the original question and not let any of the others interfere with my post.

First off I am quite a bit older then the rest of you, I have been in the fighting game for a long time, I have been hurt badly in some major altercations and have given as good as I have received.

I just wanted to say that, so you will know where I am coming from. I have trained a lot over the years and am in pretty good condition considering, I am
6' 2" and weigh 220lbs, 63 years this Dec.

I have switched to FMA (sticks) I like the flow, the drills, moving constantly,
no body contact. I have also studied various other arts, being in my background so if I need them, I still have them.

The heavy bag is a very good work out tool, I usually don't get to it until I am really worked and very warm and limber. I like to hit the speed bags usually leather and not real hard (that way they are easier on your hands and you still have got to hit them to make them work).

There might be some of you that wear protection ( I never do) It is a good thing for training not to wear protection on your hands if you are hitting like I do. I will tell you how I hit the bags, I am not in any way saying this is the best or all of you need to do this, I am just giving you one mans opinion.

I hit with closed fist, vertical and horizontal, palm strikes, finger strikes, extended finger strikes, knuckle strikes (partially closed fingers) side palm strikes, hammer strikes, back hand, forehand and any other you can think of.

These I do on the speed bags, numerous at different levels so I can also be using my legs in different positions (stance Horse hi, low etc.) I am sometimes static sometimes moving (depending on the various bags I am using).

I hit the heavy bag with a fluid motion sometimes static sometimes moving,
I hit it with a lot of the same strikes, I mentioned above, mostly with fingers tight, I also slap it, kick it, hit it with my knee, sweeps and anything else you can think of. I bump it with my shoulder, hip and buttocks, head etc.

As I said, it is never with any protection, fairly soft but heavy. I usually will spend about 45 min/ 60 min on the various bags, speed, heavy.

I like the bag (ball) on a rope tied to top and bungie cord hooked to the bottom, also at various heights. Moving constantly hitting, dodging in close, so the bag is an opponent coming back at you as hard as you send it out.

I like to work on that quite a bit of the time I am spending on the various bags. I hit it with my hands, arms, elbows, shoulder, head. It is hitting me.I am hitting it.
I also am working with the sticks, while I take a breather with the bags.

I go back to the heavy bag and work on it with the sticks, Double sticks on the bag. Constantly moving hitting using the various stances on the above,
spinning, hitting, kicking, all the time with no protection.

I don't do any thing where physical contact is used I can not trust my opponent not to hurt me. I am not complaining, I am stating a fact, I train the best I can to have health (mental and physcial).

If I have to fight it will be only if I cannot avoid it, or for protecting my loved ones etc. I figure, I will be in the best shape I can be, and thats all I can do.

I like the Mentality of the art called "Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo". The Enlightenment side of it, I am older and wiser. I am not trying to prove anything, I try not to, but I do have a hostile side to me also..

I don't need bodily contact anymore I need the exercise, time in motion and skills I have to hit and strike. Bare handed always and with the stick..

I hit the bag as hard as my barehands and body tell me to hit it.
Does all this make any sense??

If you have read this you are as dedicated as I am, or you also are a little bit crazy, like I am.

Like Waylon Jennings Sings " I am a little bit crazy, but it keeps me from going insane". Regards, Gary

[loki09789]

Ive got a few injuries now from heavy bags. Nothing serious, but certainly nagging. Ive heard that not everyone hits them with full force for this very reason. What about you? Im starting to think my training would be better off for the long haul with more speed/ constant and less power training? What about you guys? Im just certainly tired of being injured.
I am not trying to be snide here but your injuries aren't from the heavy bag, but from how you are using the heavy bag to train. I only say that to reinforce the idea that heavy bags and any thing else are only training tools.

You might want to talk to some competitive/boxing/MMA/Kick boxing TRAINERS on how they use bag work progressively to train their people from scratch. There is definitey a process of joint toughening that has to happen.

Also, it is really surprising who many people, even in the 'trained' community over train or over use certain tools because they think more is better.

Consider that 'power training', as recommended by sports performance experts is usually a 10:50 ration type of thing or for every 10 seconds of POWER work you should rest 50 seconds. Another ration that is usually recommended is 4-8 MAX reps with a MIN of 2 minutes rest for full recovery between sets. If you translate that to bag work or any other sport specific martial arts training that you are using to develop power I would say that once or twice a week doing 4 or 5 15 to 30 seconds bursts of full power striking (shorter for freeform 'rounds') with at least 1.5 minutes of rest between sets would be enough to balance that line between power improvement in your techniques without risking injury. Most MArtists, including myself at times, tend to keep going because it feels so good to bang away on that bag and end up doing too much because of that or other reasons.

You can use the bag to work on cardio, coordination, timing and such with lower striking force as part of the routines, but this will also reduce the injury curve as well.

I would really say set goals and periodize/cycle your training so that you are allowing your body recovery time as well. There are great resources out there to help you with this stuff as well.