This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu? (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521). Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?

I know of the claim that the sai comes from a Southern Chinese weapon (made for example in The Secrets of Phoenix-Eye Fist Kung Fu : The Art of Chuka Shaolin
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804831785/qid=1018451979/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4044683-1214358) by Cheong Cheng Leong and Mark V. Wiley, and previously discussed here though I can't find the thread). I don't know that that is a widely held belief though.

(Edited to fix URL.- Arnisador)

Originally posted by arnisador

This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu? (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521). Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?


Possibly because of the ban on most weapons placed first by an Okinawan king (Sho-sin?) around 1400 and then another placed by the invading Japanese a couple of hundred years later (may have gotten these dates screwed up).

Almost all of the kobudo weapons originate from farm tools, so not only were they easy to acquire, but more importantly, they were easy to hide. A Chinese broadsoard or three-section staff is kind've hard to explain. "Er...I use it cut tofu?" :D

Cthulhu

The weapons ban is a common answer, yet...I am unprepared to accept it as a full explanation. If karate was practiced in secret, mock wooden weapons could have been hidden and used in secret.

Originally posted by arnisador

The weapons ban is a common answer, yet...I am unprepared to accept it as a full explanation. If karate was practiced in secret, mock wooden weapons could have been hidden and used in secret.

Okay then, combine the weapons ban with the knowledge that for the most part, kobudo weapons fighting was developed by farmers and fishermen, not a warrior caste with access to large bladed weapons.

Cthulhu

Well--I am somewhat swayed by the arguments of Patrick McCarthy and others that karate was actually practiced more by the relatively well-to-do caste than the farmers/fishers caste. Kobudo weapons however come more from the latter than does karate I suspect. If indeed karate was developed from kung fu by the upper castes, wouldn't it have some Chinese weapons, while the farmers'/fishers' kobudo would have farming and fishing implements? Shouldn't there be some Chinese weapons somewhere in Okinawan systems?

Look at Uechi-ryu, developed in the 20th century from Southern Chinese kung fu--shouldn't there be some Chinese weaponry in it?

I once had an issue of the Journal of Asian Martial Arts that contained an article on Motobu Ryu Udun Di, claimed to be the martial art taught to the Okinawan royal family. I seem to remember them showing a bunch of weapons, many of them not considered traditional kobudo weapons. Of course, I can't find this damn issue when I really need it:rolleyes:

I agree, though, somewhere, there should be more Chinese weapons, though I would tend to eliminate broadwords and stuff like the Kwan Dao. I'm surprised there isn't a lot of arnis/escrima-like stick fighting, since both Okinawans and Filipinos use the sai (tjbang...fun word :)) and nunchaku (tabok tayok...or is it the other way around?).

Cthulhu

I agree--as widely as the Ryukyuans traded, I would expect to see weapons other than Chinese as well. But due to the kung fu connection (is that the name of a Bruce Lee movie?), I'd especially expect to see some traditional weapon from China. The butterfly knives seem an obvious candidate.

It's hard to say if the sai or nunchaku are an example of a foreign weapon, or if the bo in some styles has a Chinese spear influence. Even still I'd expect more.

Originally posted by arnisador

Well--I am somewhat swayed by the arguments of Patrick McCarthy and others that karate was actually practiced more by the relatively well-to-do caste than the farmers/fishers caste. Kobudo weapons however come more from the latter than does karate I suspect. If indeed karate was developed from kung fu by the upper castes, wouldn't it have some Chinese weapons, while the farmers'/fishers' kobudo would have farming and fishing implements? Shouldn't there be some Chinese weapons somewhere in Okinawan systems?

Look at Uechi-ryu, developed in the 20th century from Southern Chinese kung fu--shouldn't there be some Chinese weaponry in it?
.................................................. .................
The lack of Chinese weapons does raise some interesting questions.. As far as fishing/farming weapons there are kata for the hoe (garden type) and also the boat oar.


GEne Gabel

Kanryo Higaonna travelled to China in the late 1800's and brought back to okinawa what is now evolved into Goju-Ryu. Higaonna Sensei apparently learned weapons, but because no condition of war existed when he brought his art back, he never passed alot of the weapons knowledge on.

This is for Goju anyway

Michael
http://www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by arnisador

Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.?


Actually there is. Look at Motobu Ryu.........chocker block full of Chinese weapons, broad sword, halberd, 3 sectional staff, etc.

Originally posted by arnisador

..................karate was actually practiced more by the relatively well-to-do caste than the farmers/fishers caste. Kobudo weapons however come more from the latter than does karate I suspect.


Karate/Te was practiced ONLY by the upper class. It was only until after the Meiji Restoration of 1868 that commoners got to practice Karate or Te.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Look at Motobu Ryu.........chocker block full of Chinese weapons, broad sword, halberd, 3 sectional staff, etc.

I didn't know that but that is exactly what I expected to see more of. I'll check this out.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Karate/Te was practiced ONLY by the upper class.

I believe this to be largely correct but am less convinced that the kai, sai, tonfa, etc. were not practiced at some level by peasants.

I believe you are correct there. I'm most positive the peasants were atleast using the Oar, Bo, tonfa, sai, etc after all alot of these were farming implements.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Originally posted by GojuBujin

I believe you are correct there. I'm most positive the peasants were atleast using the Oar, Bo, tonfa, sai, etc after all alot of these were farming implements.

But even some of that--that the tonfa, sai, nunchaku were farming implements--is conjecture, is it not? I am not entirely convinced that this is the case but I am prepared to be corrected.

I only have to go on what my Senseis have hold me. I'm for sure the Kama was as well the Sai for farming. Apparently the logic behind it all was, since there was a ban on weapons, the peasants turned to their tools for defense.

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

The sai was actually a "Police" weapon so it is doubtfull if peasants were using it.
The reason why you see so many "farm tools" being used could be due to the fact that after the Meiji restoration many Okinawans lost everything and had to find actual work.
Choki Motobu's family were extremly high up in Okinawa's Social Class System, however they tried to start a horse drawn taxi service, among other things, but failed.
Many fairly well off families became very poor overnight.
That is one theory anyway.
Another is due to the ban of metal weapons, this was almost entirely directed at the sword, many Okinawans decided to use wood weapons.

Interesting...

Michael
www.inigmasoft.com/goyukai

Regarding the Sai.
The Sai was used by the Okinawan Police in both pre Meiji as and possibly post Meiji period. It was used in the same way the Japanese Jutte was. (the Jutte has only one prong where the Sai has two)


Michael,
I noticed your dojo is in St. Louis. I used to live there for a while, University City and work in East St. Louis..........nice place.

Originally posted by RyuShiKan

Another is due to the ban of metal weapons, this was almost entirely directed at the sword, many Okinawans decided to use wood weapons.

I've asked this before (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=868)--was there a traditional Okinawan sword? One imagines there muct have been but I have never heard of one.

Of the swords used in Okinawa I have seen the Chinese Broad Sword, Katana, "mountain sword", and the long handled knife that is used in the Rochin and Tinbei combination.

I have never actually seen an "Okinawan Sword" per say. I don't even know if they had foundaries to make anything like a katana.

Good question and if I had the time and resources I wouldn't mind looking into that further.

Originally posted by arnisador



I've asked this before (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=868)--was there a traditional Okinawan sword? One imagines there muct have been but I have never heard of one.

I not sure, but why should there? If you look at the European MA, the swords evovls depending on how combat evovled. The japanese have held onto the "katana", but I think (and not sure)it's because the religious status the swords has, and the way they fighted didn't change either, and the social status connected with the sword.

/Yari

Originally posted by arnisador


But even some of that--that the tonfa, sai, nunchaku were farming implements--is conjecture, is it not? I am not entirely convinced that this is the case but I am prepared to be corrected.

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool. Also, its appearance as a weapon in Chinese and Filipino martial arts suggest that it was a weapon brought over from elsewhere, most likely China due to Okinawa's connection to China.

Cthulhu

Originally posted by Cthulhu



Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool. Also, its appearance as a weapon in Chinese and Filipino martial arts suggest that it was a weapon brought over from elsewhere, most likely China due to Okinawa's connection to China.

Cthulhu

Most researchers never thought it was a farming tool.......since most Okinawas knew what it was.
I have never met an Okinawa that said it was a "farm tool"

in europe swords didn't just change due to the changes in combat, but combat also changed due to the sword.

also (keep in mind I don't know a whole lot about japanese swordplay) I think the lack of gunpowder alowed the japanese sword to stay usefull in combat.

Originally posted by sweeper

also (keep in mind I don't know a whole lot about japanese swordplay) I think the lack of gunpowder alowed the japanese sword to stay usefull in combat.

There is a fascinating story (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=417) behind Japan's experience with guns; it also affected archery (http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2137) of course.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

This of course is just conjecture.

My feel for it is that it is largely a cultural phenomena. While I'm sure swords were employed, Okinwans preferred the conditioning of the body and preferred to rely on it. If I had to place one weapon as the Okinawan sword it would be the 6ft bo. It seemed to be an island hobby or fascination. Many villages developed exercises with these staffs and they knew very little else. While there is definitely some Chinese influence with the bo, there is less here then in almost anything else. I would say the oar, sai, tonfa, kama, and nunchucku were less common initially. When karate began getting more organized just prior to WWII there was a large exchange of weapon knowledge. A lot of it probably went "I will show you this staff kata if you will show me a weapon I don't know". These other weapons were likely refined during this drive to put kobudo together. This is not to say that koboudo isn't as its name suggests (old). This is to say that most kobudo systems are a compilation of old kata from various sources, many of which are not in the systems direct lineage. 150 years ago you'd have a hard time finding anyone on Okinawa who practiced all the weapons that are now considered in kobudo. Rather you would find a staff expert or a kama expert or a group of people who employed the sai (which was developed from Chinese weaponry and used to disarm and engage bo fighters).

So to summarize, it is my belief that the compilation of weapons now considered to be in kobudo largely came together within the last 100 years on an island known for colorful weapons specialists. Since a full system of Chinese weaponry did not exist on the island at the time, what is now known as kobudo is a compilation of weapons used by these colorful and specialized masters.

Not sure if I’m right but at least it’s another perspective.

-Paul Holsinger

the long handled knife that is used in the Rochin and Tinbei combination.
I don't know what this is! Does anyone have an image of it?

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore.
Yes, I now believe that. It's hard to shake out the old lessons passed on by my Karate instructors though!

I don't know what this is! Does anyone have an image of it?

Try here (http://www.karate.org.yu/articles/Tinbei.htm)

Ah, thanks! I haven't seen something like this before. I'll look it over in more detail later.

Ok, in Okinawan martial arts there are different "types" of weapons.

The most common are the bo and the sai, which where used by a middle class police-like group of people. The bo was lower ranking "officers", the sai higher.

Then there is the lower class weapons, the farm tools if you like. The tonfa, nunchaku, kama, tekko, etc. These where not very developed, there are only a few kata for them and they are generally "modern" creations.

There is Chinese influence in there in places, timbae looks similar to a shield/short sword, three sectional staff does get used occasionally.

But my guess would be cost. Steel weapons where expensive. Most of the martial artists where not wealthy, and the weapons that where available to them (and a part of there job) where the bo and the sai. And the lower class wouldn't have been able to afford weapons.

The bo is probably the oldest Okinawan weapon, and certainly not primarily used by police. Many of those kata are indeed older and probably go back to China. There are a couple of fairly old kama kata, such as Hama Higa no Kama, but most of what I see is more recent. Also, several tonfa kata pre-date 1900, and may go back further (Hama Higa no tonfa), and Chatan Yara no sai is older. There are really not that many kobudo kata that are very old. But, there are around 15 or 20 that have a long history (pre-1900). Original sai were made of iron and quite heavy. The flippy techniques you see in tournaments are just flash and of no practical value.

I would figure that
- while okinawa karate traces back to china
1- the people who originally learned the kung fu didnt learn the complete systems
2- in many arts the weapons are taught last, so if you didnt learn the whole system you wont know the weapons and instead you may practice the system based on what you did know and then apply it to weapons most handy to you

think about how intermediate level people do a form they think they know compared to a black belt or teacher who knows all the correct things to do that the intermediate does wrong

its hard to pass on what you dont know,

That's a plausible explanation. I wonder if it's right or not, though? It just seems funny that so much of the empty hand stuff came through, and so very little of the weapons stuff.

As stated before, it really is due to the weapons bans imposed by the samurai. Prior to their invasion, there already was a weapons ban on Okinawa which applied to the common folk. When the Satsuma samurai came, it was merely extended to the gentry.

Yes, there were some of them who ended up training in China and gained some knowledge there, but they more often adapted this to the weapons they could "openly" have. Therefore there is no logical disconnect.

Also, because it was less common, it is unsurprising most all traces of Chinese kobudo died out. Although bo use in styles such as Yamanni Ryu (which maintains the bo is the most advanced weapon) and a few other bo kata is decidedly Chinese.

There are stories of Bushi Matsumura learning Jigen Ryu swordsmanship in Satsuma, which wouldn't surprise me as he was essentially an Okinawan equivalent of a samurai.

We really owe a lot to Taira Shinken and his efforts to learn many weapons kata and preserve them for modern generations. In the early 1900s and around the WWII era, even empty hand Okinawan systems were suffering from a malaise despite the revolutionary work of many masters during the time and its general opening to the public. Times were hard and not everyone wanted to do it. The fact that unlawful weapons usage and systems may have died out doesn't seem very unlikely.

Although bo use in styles such as Yamanni Ryu (which maintains the bo is the most advanced weapon) and a few other bo kata is decidedly Chinese. This is what I really expected to see more of rather than, say, butterfly swords or three-section staves. But despite the illegality, I would have expected to see some style, somewhere, that maintained a Chinese weapon of some sort.

I see your logic in the main, though.

That's a plausible explanation. I wonder if it's right or not, though? It just seems funny that so much of the empty hand stuff came through, and so very little of the weapons stuff.

How much of the empty hand stuff really came through ?
Although okinawan arts were heavily influenced/ derived from some southern chinese arts dont the okinawan arts just have some peices combined with the okinawan twist on things? In addition the way the body mechanics are used (different)? The way chinese arts are taught vs okinawa te or japanese karate? I read an article about an old teacher/ master from okinawa who stated to the effect sometimes they would make up forms using the name of another form they might have seen but didnt realy know.

Alot of speculation on my part but I guess what I am saying is how much/ how little actually was preserved from china to okinawa? 20%, 50% ?
If alot of the empty hand stuff isnt there how much of the weapons is?

I could be completely wrong though, anybody with info feel free to critique..

I've heard it said that Okinawan Karate is 40% Chinese, 40% Okinawan, and 20% other:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=812

See also:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1521

I've also heard up to 70-80% Chinese.

This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu? (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521). Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?


It's worth noting that many of these weapons were a part of the Seikichi Uehara Undundti/Gotente curriculum and were prominently displayed in a JAMA article about Uehara.

But Undunti has no kata*. Odd, isn't it?

Yon-setsu (three section) and other nunachu variants are also somewhat antique parts of kobudo, but they seem to be known to have been practiced -- they are not actively practiced.

* Well, it does not that Uehara's gone, since his successors now teach it as part of a karate curriculum.

I didn't know this! The lack of kata is the really interesting part.

Many researchers no longer hold to the 'sai as farming implement' anymore. There really is no good use for it as a farming tool.
Whenever reading about Japanese weapons deriving from farming tools, when I was 10 I had never seen anything that went into the details of any,I havn't thought to look into it since, i had always thought it was roughly :

nunchuka - detached from the hinge of a rice flail.
kama - scythe (self explanatory).

tonfa - crank handle of some kind, from a mill wheel or similar?


modern sai I had always assumed must have evolved from the head of a pitch fork.

I'll be lazy and copy-paste what I've been saying on another forum about this. So please excuse the tone of it...it certainly isn't directed at you.

It was in response to this statement:

The sai was use for poking holes in the ground so that they could plant seeds, the comma was use to cut grain, and if yall didnt know...the bo was used for carreing buckets full of water, the tonfa was used as the handle on the well to bring up the bucket of water, the nunchucks where used as a rice flail, oh yeah i guess i did spell kama lol.followed by:

and you take shorin ryu, how did you not know this?(note: I did let him get to me here...)

Yes, I knew the kama was for cutting in agricultural purposes. I never said it wasn't. I was merely fooling around at the "comma" typo. The kama was used for 100s of years as a weapon, although bigger and more durable ones were used by Bushi.

The bo is pretty much multi-purpose and could have evolved in any number of ways. They did, however, have records of battles where bo were being employed as early as the 1300s. It wasn't something just adapted from farm use. Yes, farmers may have easily done it, but so may have someone using a large walking staff or any number of things. Many villages had their own bo kata. Some were complex, some were only a few moves.
But again, it has a long and rich history of being a weapon.

As for the tonfa, the more popular story is the handle for grist mill. There are some sources which believe it was adapted from the "iron crutch" of China, a light and easily carried shield named "dong-wah" from Fujian China (John Sells). In addition, there may even be some Filipino influences as well. It is a possibility the weapon was taken and disguised as a farm implement instead of growing from one. It was still used as one, but its origin was a weapon. That is a more interesting yet still plausible argument. More so than the handle on a well, which would really only be useful if you happened to be by a well...(They just didn't walk around and carry their weapons and farm tools all day long...)

The nunchucks [sic] (how that term grates my ears) probably derived from various sources. One of these is the nung-cha-kung in Fujian China. Again, already a weapon imported from China is a likely answer, although the Okinawan version is much shorter. Another popular one based on the type of "older nunchaku" made were a conversion of horse bridles and very much look like it. This makes sense as Bushi were able to have horses, and thus have horse bridles around. As far as the rice and grain flail thing...have you ever seen a grain flail? Those things bear a passing resemblence, but look vastly difference in terms of length and how you would employ them. I (as does John Sells) tend to think that was more of a "fool the Japanese" story than anything else. Even the long handled Chinese flails are shorter than grain flails...
Again, there is also a theory that the Filipinos may have taught them some nunchaku. I believe perhaps a merging of all the above...minus the nunchaku.



...So yes, I have done a lot of research on the weapons, as I do practice Shorin Ryu. As such, I make it a point to dispel common myths among people that have not. The Okinawans who repeat these myths have some justification; it's a cultural and tradition thing...but the rest of us have no excuse.


In my excitement, I forgot to talk about the sai...did you ever run a logic test on that story? How expensive did you think metal was on a small island? Especially a large hunk of metal required to make sai? Do you think every farmer had one? Or three, like some people insist? (you see, they had two in a hand...they would throw one and then take the other from behind their back... *groan*). Furthermore, there were variants and antecedents of the sai as a weapon in China, again, from Fujian. It was used by the royal bodyguards and the local constables. Not peasants who would poke holes in the ground...you can use wood for that, no need for costly metal...




(End copy-paste section)


Much of my thoughts on weaponry have been shaped by far more factual books on karate history, such as John Sells' Unante: The Secrets of Karate, my discussions with various instructors, what I know of East Asia (undergrad and grad school focus), and common sense.

Again, please don't take the tone as being directed towards you. It isn't.

as they had metal for kama i'd asumed metal for a pitch fork wouldn't have been too much of a problem, and wood wouldn't have been strong enough.

I hadn't heard the seed hole poker theory, lol.

the rice flail thing, I know they are considerably longer, but otherwise wasn't aware of their construction, I did say i thoghut it was from the mid section, meaning the longer handles would be detatchable somehow.

i don't see why something so ... chunky would be used in a bridal though?

I was howerver fully aware I was attempting to use logic and presumtion to backup myth and legend :)

This is related to my previous thread Why is karate different from kung fu? (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1521). Given the strong Chinese influence on Okinawan karate and the number of karateka who studied literal kung fu, either in Okinawa or actually in China, why aren't there more Chinese weapons studied in these systems? Why is there no three-section staff, nine section whip, butterfly knives, Chinese broadsword, etc.? For some I'll accept that they were principally Northern weapons, not Southern, but I can't think of a single clearly Chinese weapon that's studied in kobudo or Okinawan karate. Where is the long spear? The fan?

I know of the claim that the sai comes from a Southern Chinese weapon (made for example in The Secrets of Phoenix-Eye Fist Kung Fu : The Art of Chuka Shaolin
(http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0804831785/qid=1018451979/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-4044683-1214358)by Cheong Cheng Leong and Mark V. Wiley, and previously discussed here though I can't find the thread). I don't know that that is a widely held belief though.

(Edited to fix URL.- Arnisador)

one of the reasons is that weapons were literealy outlawed with draconian peneltys if cought with one at all. ( the okinawan king out lawed them when he unified the island chain and the satsuma clan when they took the islands in about 1600 continued the ban on owning or training with weapons) so the Okinawans learned to use what were esentialy tools from farming and fishing and other trades as weapons. the 3 section staff is actualy a kobudo weapon, but most dont know it. there are a lot of weapons that were and are tools. Kama, tunfa, bo/kun and then there are the ones that were just weapons but small. these are things like tekko and such. but easily hidden and cast away. that is why for instance the long chinese spear is not tought. but if you look at the bo kata that have not been changed they would and do work just fine with a yari or a chinese spear. so in meany ways a suruchin could at least give you a clue how to use a steel whip perhaps. but again if cought with a 9 section whip the peneltys at times at least were death as I understand it.

Okinawan kobudo is not one approach to training. There is a very honnored system, the family art of Matayoshi Shimpo which included many Chinese weapons forms and some Chinese empty hand forms as well.

So Okinawan Kobudo does contain Chinese weapons study.

The clips below contain some examples of Chinese related arts, IMO.

Sansetsukon vs Bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMoQCLAA2g (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMoQCLAA2g)
Suruchin Exercises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5TbBoMU3k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5TbBoMU3k)
Timbei Kata and Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko)

Why isn't baseball football? Why isn't soccer tennis?

China did not even let any other country have it's idea on the Crossbow for over a thousand years so what would make you think someone learning Chinese Martial Art that was a foriegner to just come an go with something like Nine Section Whip, or Gen, maybe that an the thrusher are already in Okinawa an the Crossbow an major weapons did not make the cross. The Ji made it across so did several other staff based weapons.

Okinawan kobudo is not one approach to training. There is a very honnored system, the family art of Matayoshi Shimpo which included many Chinese weapons forms and some Chinese empty hand forms as well.

So Okinawan Kobudo does contain Chinese weapons study.

The clips below contain some examples of Chinese related arts, IMO.

Sansetsukon vs Bo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgMoQCLAA2g
Suruchin Exercises
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qx5TbBoMU3k
Timbei Kata and Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko
__________________
Victor Smith
bushi no te isshinryu
derry, nh, usa



the 3 section staff is tought in kobujitsu and is indeed a chinese weapon, but the timbei is a standerd weapon of the Okinawan military of the 1500's A.D. basicly a turttle shell sheild and a sword/short spear weapon used some what like an assagi or even a gladia in some respects. I am not awear of any bladed weapon in the chinese arts that is quite like it. the butterfly sword is kinda similer, but i dont know if the butterfly sword was a comon weapon or not in 1500 AD. but as in any situation where there are peoples some what close they will influince each others use of weapons. the main reason they did not use chinese weapons more extensivly is .. it was ilegal to even posses something that was a weapon in Okinawa after the first king banned weapons possession. so a cross bow or a chinese broad sword or long spear would be a very bad idea to be cought with, let along training with.

Chinto,

There is debate about whether weapons were ever illegal on Okinawa.

Recently it was discovered that the entire historical story was a mistranslation and that the Okinawan king never banned weaopns but instead had the militia (everyone) store them in a central repository so if attacked everyone would gather, grab their weapons and organize a defense. It didn't work as the Japanese in the 1500's went through the Okinawan defenders in 20 hours.

Nor is was it illegal to own swords. The Japanese may have tried to control the import of weapons, but they didn't formally take family weapons away.

It seems a lot of the history that has been repeated infinately is based on bad origins.

I'm not a translator, but the longer I study the less I trust anything that has been written.

The Matayoshi family kobudo has definate Chinese sources, their empty hand traditions of Crane, Drunken and Monkey forms even more so.

Okinawa a traveling crossroads, (and with literally hundreds of shipwrecks and a continual source of new ideas) has martial sources from many traditions. There are Chinese communities of antiquity on the Island too.

Until the modern era, kobudo practice was very close, family and not open.

The past will remain a mystery because most of these arts were undocumented on purpose and that purpose succeeded as we cannot answer our questions further.

Of course much if not most of China's weapons traditions were local and family too.

Neat! Thanks, Chinto!


Timbei Kata and Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko



Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?

Nor is was it illegal to own swords.

If this is so, why is the sword so very rarely seen in Okinawan arts? Everyone does the bo and sai, but the Okinawan sword (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5457) is very rare (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=868).

Hi Arnisdor,

I think it is fair to make a distinction from swords being owned by families as opposed to sword training systems. The weapons themselves do not seem to have been banned, but how deep the sword traditions went is a question I guess.

Okinawa was never a terribly dangerous place. Except for the ports, and perhaps the Okinawan kings bodyguards, why would anyone have a need to have serious sword training? The actual Okinawan self defense forces in the 1500's only lasted about 20 hours when the Japanese took over.

If you do research into the various Okinawan instructors there are those who have incorporated sword training. The Royal arts also incorporated sword techniques (as much for defense preparation as offensive use).

But on the whole all kobudo on Okinawa until well into the 1900's was very private, family or village arts and didn't link up with karate studies until well into the 50's in part.

Okinawa's history is very textured. I'm not writing this as a historical document, have no intent to dig through all my sources to prove anything. It's just most of the books/articles, etc. keep simply copying what someone else wrote before without any research as to how valid the original statements were.

The Japanese were the ones that discovered that it was a mis-translation of an earlier document that gave rise to the 'history' that Okinawa's king banned weapons. But you still find Okinawan's referencing that is the case too. That leaves the question what is the real history, and those foxy Okinawan's were really good at not leaving much documentation around.

A quick reference to sword technique is found in Ryukyu Oke Hiden Bujutsu or Udundi of the Motobu family. If you seek it out you can see Uehara Seikichi showing some sword technique on YouTube. These studies are also partly documented in "The Secret Royal Martial Arts of Ryukyu" by Matsuo Kanenori Sakon (translated by Joseph Swift).

I also recall other instructors who had studied sword.

How effective these arts were cannot be proven by books or video clips.

But there is some sword tradition on Okinawa that continued.

Okinawan arts vary between the Karate Ones, the Udundi ones, the various weapons traditions (Yammani, Taira Shinken, Matayoshi and others), Okinawan Sumo and likely others far less known.

The only thing I know for sure is the longer I look, the more problems I find with almost everything that has been written.

Timbei Kata and Bunkai
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKvSKBBN0ko

Arnisdor asked "Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?"

Yes in the Matayoshi lineage as well as those arts preserved in the Taira Shinken lineage (though they use tortise shells for shields - or modern equivalents).

That video of the Matayoshi lineage Timbei kata likely references Matayoshi's strong Chinese lineage too. But their transmission into the modern era is Okinawan.

Thanks for sharing all this information! I find it fascinating. Seeing some Chinese weapons and some swordwork really fills in the gaps in what I expected to see vs. what I have always seen--bo, sai, tonfa, nunchaku, and maybe some variants.

Neat! Thanks, Chinto!




Is that really traditional, with the forward rolls and all?


I could not say.. took that as a quote to respond to what that person had said.... well tryied to do a mini quote actualy..

but i have no idea if that is even close to traditional. i dont know any of the kata for that weapon. the weapon and sheild is however a traditional weapon of the okinawans for their army/militia from around 1500