Boxing for JKDers?

[arnisador]

The hardest part of learning JKD for me, by far, has been the boxing-style techniques. After years of studying karate when I was younger and practicing FMA now I feel pretty competent at the Oriental-style techniques, even when they're new to me; the HKE scheme is also relatively easy to fit into. But something as "simple" as a jab-cross then weave out is a struggle for me. It simply moves differently. The JKD books explain these techniques briefly but could someone suggest a (kick)boxing book or video that I could use to really study the boxing techniques? I'd like something with all the details and ideally the rationale as well since I tend to approach these things from a fairly intellectual viewpoint, not just "feeling it out". My instructor and the more advanced students have been very helpful but I feel rather awkward at these punches and would like to bone up on them!

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by arnisador

The hardest part of learning JKD for me, by far, has been the boxing-style techniques. After years of studying karate when I was younger and practicing FMA now I feel pretty competent at the Oriental-style techniques, even when they're new to me; the HKE scheme is also relatively easy to fit into. But something as "simple" as a jab-cross then weave out is a struggle for me. It simply moves differently. The JKD books explain these techniques briefly but could someone suggest a (kick)boxing book or video that I could use to really study the boxing techniques? I'd like something with all the details and ideally the rationale as well since I tend to approach these things from a fairly intellectual viewpoint, not just "feeling it out". My instructor and the more advanced students have been very helpful but I feel rather awkward at these punches and would like to bone up on them!

I wish I could help you, arnisador, but I never had that problem. It may have helped that one of the guys I trained with used to train kickboxers. If you have access to some sort of punching bag at home, I'd suggest frequent practice with that...I don't think a book or video will help, as I've found that 'boxing-style' punches have a different feel that can't be conveyed in video or print.

Damn, I'm not much help, am I?

Cthulhu

[KumaSan]

I've been trying to think of something that would help for the last hour and a half, and I couldn't think of a single book or video for you. I think I saw some boxing tapes on Matt Thornton's (http://www.straightblastgym.com) website, but it's been a little while since I checked it.

What helps me most with punching mechanics is to shadowbox in a mirror s-l-o-w-l-y. If you do it enough times, it won't feel so awkward, I hope.

[arnisador]

I didn't see anything at Matt Thornton's site, but there's a lot there. I may have missed it.

Mr. Hartman has a set of wall stations (http://www.focusmaster.com/products/G1000/index.html) that are great to practice on, but they're pricey. Still, what I need first is information.

[KumaSan]

Okay, I found the tapes I was thinking of over at Mr. Thornton's. Check here (http://www.straightblastgym.com/video.html#videos), down at the bottom, the second set up. Don Familton's Superior Boxing. I've never seen them, or a review of them, but they are the only boxing videos that come to mind.

Those wall stations look sweet, but yes a little pricey. At our school the equipment mainly consists of heavy bags, and of course plenty of pads for partner drills.

[Baoquan]

If you want to learn the boxing techniques - train with boxers. There are gyms everywhere. The thing about martial arts is that its harder to learn without a live opponent. So much of it is so relative to your opponents position, speed, stlye etc that learning from a book will only give you a glimpse of the depth and width of the techinique.

I've been training with boxers since i was six, and i'm still learning stuff. My dad, who is (at 56) great trainer and inspiration can still tag me when he tries real hard.

If u really want to learn hard, efficient hand striking techniques and upper body evasion, train with western boxers. The depth of tecnique, speed and power of western boxing is simply better than Thai Boxing - i dont want to start any flames here, but i've trained and fought with both, and and on the whole boxers punch harder, faster and more accurately than kickboxers. They train for it exclusively, the boxing stance is more suited to it (kick boxers sit to far over the rear foot for real punching power), and the techniquaes and combos are more diverse. Also, kick boxers dont really evade like boxers do. More stop kicking, high-forearm blocking etc.

However, if you want to integrate some hand techniques with your background in eastern, whole-body oriented MA, kick boxing is a great way to go. Its fun, hard as hell and very efficient. Also, elbows are devastating - simple and effective, easy to integrate with trapping. You wont learn those in any reputable boxing gym. :p

Bags are good, but train with someone who is a boxer/kick-boxer while using the bag - the bag is a great training aid if you're doing the technique correctly, but if your form is bad, you're just building bad habits into your muscle memory. My advice is, go to a gym.

just my 0.02c.

Cheers

Baoquan

[Damian Mavis]

I had a similar problem with boxing when I first took it up, coming from a Tae Kwon Do background....were we basically just throw out punches any way we like with no worry about keeping our guard up with each punch. I found boxing really regimented for technique..it was either exactly the way it should be..or completely wrong haha. But I just kept practicing and practicing and eventually it started to feel natural. Now when I do boxing I feel very fluid and relaxed.

All I can say is just do the movements over and over until they feel good. (using the right technique)

not much help I know....

Damian Mavis
Honour KD

[bscastro]

A good book that has a good description of the punches and kicks in Jun Fan Gung Fu is Kevin Seaman's Jun Fan Gung Fu: Seeking the Path to Jeet Kune Do. Sifu Seaman is one of Inosanto's instructors from Cortland, NY. His book has good descriptions and also has sections on trapping, defensive hand movements, footwork, and five ways of attack so it is a good overall primer on Jun Fan.

However, I also agree that a lot of it is practice and just waiting for it to click. I used to study Tae Kwon Do, but luckily I also simultaneously cross-trained in Kali which has some boxing and one of my training partners was also an amateur boxer, which helped alot.

Bryan

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Damian Mavis

I had a similar problem with boxing when I first took it up, coming from a Tae Kwon Do background

I am having a similar issue with my karate background. Just today I was reminded to keep my guard up on the cross as the other hand was going back to my hip.


not much help I know....


Well, I appreciate the encouragement Mr. Mavis! In time I imagine I'll get there, but I feel like I'm starting from sub-zero due to my karate training.

[Damian Mavis]

I know you've probably heard this before..... but I notice the hardest thing people have to overcome when learning something new is thier own disapointments in themselves. I see my partners in Muay Thai always berate themselves when they don't get the technique right away and I see that in my own students in TKD. Being discouraged is making learning the technique 10 times more difficult. Just keep a positive attitude and have faith that you can learn anything you want, nothing is out of reach. At least, thats what I tell people when they seem to hard on themselves.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[bscastro]

One tool I use to keep my guard hand up (I do this occasionally if my partner says I've been dropping it), is to hold a focus mitt under my guard arm between my upper arm and my body. When you drop your hand, usually the focus mitt will fall to the floor. I do this while hitting the bag or when throwing shadow boxes. It worked great in that I don't really have to do it anymore after 2-3 sessions a few months ago.

For example. If you are in left lead, and you throw a lead jab, you would put the mitt under your right arm (not stuffed up by the armpit, but more around the elbow/upper arm area). For a rear cross, it goes under the left arm.

If you try it, let me know how it goes.

Bryan :)

[arnisador]

Thanks bscastro--I saw this in a book yesterday (Kickboxing for Women (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193054653X/qid=1018623450/sr=8-2/ref=sr_8_7_2/104-4044683-1214358), in fact) with wadded-up newspapers, but it was said to be for keeping your elbows tight in not guard up. But you're right--it should help both. I'll try some variation of it.

[bscastro]

It helped both for me. Good luck and let me know how that goes. Also, if you have any problems with your hook, my instructor mentioned how his old boxing coach used to have his students hit old tires with a baseball bat (at first he thought the coach was going to beat THEM with a bat) to help wih their hip pivoting. I think Chris Kent also used a Kali stick against a heavy bag for the same purpose.

I find when training with old Tae Kwon Do buddies and showing them some boxing that the problems come from how they generate their power and being relaxed as much as the hand positioning with the off-hand.

In any case, let me know how it works out for you.

Bryan

[Icepick]

www.royharris.com has a video on the topic, as well as some online clips. Interesting discussion here:

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=39

Check out the thread entitled:

ATTN Ryan Pratt Core boxing ques.

:boxing:

[arnisador]

FINALLY today something clicked and I feel like I'm getting a handle on my jab, cross, bob and weave, and general footwork. Luckily my classmates are very helpful--it's a great training environment--in addition to the tips I'm getting from my instructor.

[Damian Mavis]

Great! It's always exciting when things seem to fall into place and your progressing. Sometimes everything feels like its taking forever to get down and then suddenly it feels like it is so easy and your wondering what the hell the probelm was for the past few months. I've been through that many times.

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD

[Kiwi]

It sounds like you are getting things sorted out, but here is my 2 cents anyway.

3 Min Endurance rounds on the heavy bag:

1 Min Jab
1 Min Cross
1 Min Jab Cross
20 Seconds of Footwork/Bob and Weave

Have someone hold the bag for you. The idea is to throw a lot of punches in the three minutes. Repeat as many times as you like or take turns with your partner.

When you punch touch the side of the temple w/ secondary hand, tuck in your chin.

Do not punch with a set rhythm, but punch often. Don't be too concerned with footwork, mobility is not the PRIMARY goal in this drill, but obviously you will want to stay light on your feet. The goal is to fatigue the upper body each time so that the feeling becomes natural and you are more relaxed when fresh.

I find this kind of endurance work more common in "gym" environment arts, such as boxing and muay thai and that
many more technical arts rarely do this. It is not that one is better, just that you get different benefits. If you are a black belt or equivalent, but lack true endurance work, you owe it to yourself to work on it.

Let me know what you think. Writing this makes me realize that I do not work this nearly enough ;) I should practice what I preach!

Kiwi

[thekuntawman]

i agree with baoquan, you aint going to learn much about boxing from a concepts person or from a videotape. boxing is a hands on kind of thing, just like you arent going to learn to play basketball from anyone but a player himself.

anyone who is going to send you to video or explain this kind of thing without saying the only way to get it is from a boxing gym does not know anything about boxing. if you really want to learn how to fight like a boxer, you are going to have to go to a boxing gym (including sparring too, "gentlemans boxing/no-contact boxing/bag work-out" is the same as "tae-bo", even with focus mitts and concept.:D

[arnisador]

My instructor and the other students are helping me, but I was hoping for something more as it's my weakest area in JKD, I feel. We shadow box, use the focus pads, do drills, etc., but I was hoping something might help me get there sooner.

Maybe what I need more than Boxing for JKDers is Boxing for ex-Karateka--I can still throw a decent reverse punch but the jab is tough.

[sweeper]

what the heck's "gentlemans boxing" ?

Arnisador have you talked to your JKD instructor? alot of JKD instructors have cross-trained in western boxing so he may be able to help or at leaste point you int he direction of a good gym.

but if anything I might suggest getting a bag and practicing your jab over and over and over again.. eventualy your body will re-wire it's self for the movement.

also have you ever jabbed before? if not it's probably not so much an ex-karate thing but more of a new to boxing thing, so a boxing gym would probably help.

[arnisador]

Nope--never jabbed before.

It may just take time, but I was hoping to find an instructional aid that might help. I have discussed it at class--it's just that this set of techniques is the one that's lagging the most for me and I wanted to focus on it. I may go for a few privates too. Joining a boxing gym isn't realistic for me time-wise.

[Cthulhu]

My Okinawa-te instructor had a very simple method of training me to keep my guard up: when doing drills on the kicking shield or with focus mitts, if I dropped my guard, he'd hit me. Plain and simple. Guard down, I got hit.

Learned to keep my guard up pretty damn quick :)

Cthulhu

[arnisador]

Keeping my guard up is a big part of it. Footwork too.

It's just--awkward.

[sweeper]

well in that case I think I know what you are going through, when I started JKD I had never practiced any other martial art.. also I had never played any sport that required arm movement (I am a soccer player) so getting my arms to work in the right way was tough.

If you know how it should look than I would suggest practicing at something like 3/4 speed in a mirror untill it seems a little more natural and just increase speed untill you are at full speed, another thing that helped me relax was sparring untill I had no energy left, you either learn to relax or your arm doesn't come up :-p.

Is a large part of your problem is the tention from your antagonist muscle? that's another thing that will improve with practice.

(PS/edit)

Almost forgot, has anyone suggested throwing the jab like you are trying to grab something? like toss a penny up in the air and wait untill it's lined up with your jab and grab it (don't swing your arm side-side, use the same mechanics as a jab) and return to the guard, than go to two pennies.

Also for some people it helps to try to pop their elbo up when they throw the jab, but be carefull to stop before you hit the end of your range of motion ;-p

[bscastro]

Originally posted by arnisador

Keeping my guard up is a big part of it. Footwork too.

It's just--awkward.

I think you might experience a big "click" after enough practice. I think from what you are saying is that it is not just little details like keeping your hands up which you are having difficulty with, but also just understanding the mechanics of the jab--Internally understanding it that is.

One big thing I've had a revelation on with the jab, and I thought I had a "not so sucky" jab for a while, was learning how to use my whole body in the jab while still retaining quickness. In any case, sometimes, just keep working it. Once something clicks, you'll be making great strides. Also, watch those whom you think have good jabs. Sometimes, by watching an "expert" at a skill you can emulate certain aspects of the skill.

Good luck.

Bryan

[arnisador]

Originally posted by bscastro

I think from what you are saying is that it is not just little details like keeping your hands up which you are having difficulty with, but also just understanding the mechanics of the jab--Internally understanding it that is.

Yes, that is it exactly. I'm sure it'll go away with time--I'm just trying to focus on improving my weakest areas. Thanks fo rthe tips!

[Kiwi]

>bag work-out" is the same as "tae-bo"

I have to disagree with this one. If a bag workout is the same as Tae-bo, why is working the heavy bag a boxers staple??
I don't see boxers doing tae-bo to prep for a fight.

I still have to stick with the heavy bag IMHO. A few months of consistent work will "rewire" you faster than all the equivalent lessons, sparring and shadowboxing. That is not to say that those things aren't important (especially sparring where boxing is concerned) but for the ex-karateka, I think this the best "first-step" because it will activate muscle memory quicker and give you the raw speed and power that a boxers hands must have.

After some time you will have a jab that can really test someones guard (ie. aim for their hands instead of their face and they will eat their own gloves if they are not experienced enough).

With respects to all posters,
Kiwi

[thekuntawman]

bag work with no sparring is tae bo, and bagwork with no sparring, and no idea what you are doing is tae bo. it takes more than just knowing how to throw the punch to using these techniques, and trying to use common sense of what you think you are looking at to say you are boxing.

there is more to learning to box than just punch, slip, bob and weave, and conditioning. but most "cross trainers" to "boxing" dont box in a real boxing gym, and they dont go to real boxers to learn to fight. what you will learn from a boxing gym will amaze you, because they have things most martial artist never even think about. and this is why i say dont trust people who taught himself how to box, and why i call it "tae bo". many of the women who do tae bo know how to through a roudnhouse kick and punches, but they really dont know how to fight with those techniques. even they have good form and look like a black belter in their basics. but the martial artist (especially JKD people) have the same understanding of how to box. bruce lee himself did not train with boxers, which you can tell by his performance of his punchings. and instead of going to the source for the informations, they see videos like bruce lee did and said to themself, "this is a jab, this is a cross/hook/uppercut/slip/bob/weave/pivot" and now he thinks he knows how to box. if you want to learn to through punches, then yes, maybe you can teach yourself. but if you really want the juice and the meat of learning to box, you will have to train with someone who fought long enough to show you all the small details of boxing.

so, if you want to learn how to box to add to your weapons, join a boxing gym, and train for at least one year. there is more to it than it looks easy.

[sweeper]

well from talking to JKD people alot of them have trained in boxing gyms (or thai boxing gyms deppending on taste)..

but from what I've seen of tae bo it's an airobic exercise program not any kind of martial training program, I don't think you can develop power in an airobics class just because hard hitting is anairobic. never done tae bo though so wouldn't know..

[Kiwi]

Ok, so I have not spent a year in a boxing gym. I have however spent 6 months training in a muay thai gym. I am sure that even Billy Blanks would agree that working the heavy bag and doing Tae Bo are not the same thing.

I certainly appreciate your opinion, because I agree that you will never truly learn it unless you are in there doing it, but I am just referring to tools here. You need to know have the application as well, but that does not mean that refining the raw tool is pointless.

Assuming I go to that boxing gym and start training. Are you saying I will never see a boxer working the heavy bag?

Respects,
Kiwi

[Kiwi]

Let me just add that I do agree that sparring is more important than the heavy bag, but I still think the heavy bag is important tool and that you would be at a disadvantage to have never used it. How much time you spend on it really depends on how you feel about the power you are able to generate.

[SolidTiger]

I don't need a bag or a sparring partner to know how strong my punches and kicks are. When I train I give my punches and kicks as much zip, snap and power as if I was fighting and opponent,but if I had to pick I will won't fight somthing that is punching back at me. I think you learn more when you fight a fighter with more skill then you,because if you win what that say?
and if you lose, you know what you need work on ,and you can
make yourself stronger in those areas that you are weak in. but
a bag let's you punch it!


Good Luck!

SolidTiger

As long as theirs a will there will be a way.........

[sweeper]

the point of a bag isn't to give you combat experience, it's to alow you to better train your punches full force. a person isn't gona just stand there letting you hit them full force, that's the point of a bag, it's kinda like lifting weights, it stengthens you in a way sparring soeone can not.