the sparring debate

[warriorsage]

Many have said (both here and everywhere else) that sparring is the ultimate form of training. OR it is the best form of training, atleast where self defense is concerned. I can see why many say this and I will admit that most students who are GREAT at sparring are probably quite capable at self defense (aside from the few who have only a blazing flick of a back fist). But in Kenpo, we actively practice self-defense techniques. In the schools I've been associated with, we've always taken it a bit further than the standard technique line and have worked the techniques in many various drills (semi-circle, random attacks, blind-folded, etc). None of these appropriately address the fear/stress/surprise of a real attack, but they are a step in the right direction.

Sparring doesn't give you much of that. Sparring is a tool. It is great for conditioning, for distancing, timing, etc, but that is where it ends in my book. I think if sparring is to be a truly effective tool for self defense, we need to change the way we do it. I'm not talking about going from point sparring to continous, or NHB. The change I'm talking about addresses one of my biggest problems with sparring. Sparring for me has always been two karate guys fighting each other with karate moves. I know the few things he's going to do and he knows my things AND they are not the kind of things a skilled or unskilled street fighter is going to do. Plain and simple.

What I've started doing with one of my partners is kind of a blend between technique practice and freestyle. One guy agrees to be the karate guy and the other is the street fighter, doing a wide variety of punches(jabs, crosses, hooks, whatever) and attempted grabs, tackles, etc) and a few punt-style kicks. He doesn't just do the attack and stop while I beat him up, as in technique lines. He keeps on fighting as if we were doing usual sparring. This, to me, is a great tool. It's not perfect, it's not reality, but it is the most useful sparring I've done at this point in my training. I was sick of trying to defend mainly against back knuckle/ reverse punch, side kick type attacks...attacks where we were both trying to get in quick and get back out.

Anyone have any thoughts on this??

[Klondike93]

Interesting idea, I'd like to give this a try and see how it goes.

What kind of padding do you use, the normal sparring gear or something more like a body armour?

:asian:

[Battousai]

Ya I agree with you totally Warriorsage, sparring is very limited as it is most widely practiced. Real life is not two people standing a couple of feet apart and continuously kicking at each others head. Every single sparring session that I have ever seen involves people practicing reverse kicks on each other, exposing their spine, a real life attack that could end with the kicker in a wheel chair, very stupid to do the technique as everyone does it in sparring.

[Robbo]

You say he doesn't stop punching and kicking you while you do your technique. I think the idea is cool but if you can't hit him like you are suppossed to how do you discourage furthur punching and kicking on his part?

When I say "supposed to" I don't mean the shots to the abdomin, I'm referring to the eye gouges, arm breaks/hyperextensions, etc.

[Kirk]

There's quite a few people in my class that have never ever in
their lives been involved in a fight. Let's say you eliminate
sparring (like my school has I think). How will these people ever
be able to see a strike coming? They've never seen one before!
I've heard that in the advanced class there's some slamming
going on, so maybe they earn that skill there?

[tonbo]

At my school, the "upper levels" spar pretty much as you propose. There is no "flash", and your opponent/partner is generally not letting up on you. The only real exception is if you agree to work on something with your partner (i.e., "I need to work on my hands"), and they agree to help you out with it. Otherwise, it is pretty much an onslaught from the word "go" until the word "break".

I have worked students with sparring drills where they were given one combination or technique that they can pull off, regardless of what their opponent is doing. That proves pretty interesting, watching the adaptations. The student is limited to the strikes in the technique, although they can block all they want to.....goal is to get that technique in as much as possible.

Another drill we do is multiple opponent sparring. Depending on the level, we will have one student face off against two or three. The goal?? Stay out of the middle, and "stack" your opponents.

Finally, another drill I have done is "situational" sparring. This takes two forms:

Form 1: One student is the "victim", and leaves the room for a few minutes. The rest of the students are identified as either "attackers" or "neutrals". The goal of the "victim" is to make it across the room without running and tag a heavy bag. The "neutrals" can approach and talk to the "victim" and get in his/her way, but can't fight or hold him/her; the "attackers" can attack, at any point, and possibly in combination with others. The point is that the "victim" has to keep his/her wits, never knowing who is neutral and who is aggressive.

Form 2: I set up kick shields, blockers, pool noodles, etc. and identify them as various pieces of furniture, lampposts, flowerpots, etc., depending on the environment that I want to create. I also then put in a couple of "innocent bystanders" and have two combatants. If the combatants bump into or strike any of the bystanders, the bystanders can jump into the fight, against either or both of the opponents. The goal is to avoid hitting bystanders, and avoid the furniture, etc. Great fun, when you have a sidewalk "setting", and identify a "road"....."Fall in the 'road', you die"...;)

We have also done variations with weapons of both of the above. The whole goal is to get a break from the usual "Rock 'em, Sock 'em Robots" approach of normal sparring and to create situational awareness.

As mentioned, sparring is what you make of it.

Oh, yeah....we do this with the advanced belts (generally brown and higher), and with padding (head, hands, groin, mouthpiece). We don't want to freak out the lower/intermediate belts...:D

Peace--

[warriorsage]

Thanks folks for the input and questions. When I was saying the attacker keeps going and never stops punching/kicking, etc, that was misleading. He stops and starts as he sees fit. What he doesn't do, however, is just throw one attack and then wait while you rattle off a technique. He attacks and backs off just as he would in typical continuous sparring. The main difference is the types of attacks he throws. No high kicks, spin kicks, no shuffling in w/ back knuckles, no karate-style reverse punches. The kind of freestyle I'm describing would be the same that you would do if you took a friend or relative (one without a lot of ego and some control) who had no martial arts training and told them you were going to spar a bit. You explain fully about control and not really trying to blast each other. The type of attacks he/she would throw would be close to what I'm looking for. Of course, this isn't foolproof because they would probably not be aggressive enough due to their concern with your awesome "karate" skills.

I haven't done this with an untrained person, but I have on occassion asked a friend or two how they would try to hit me if the situation arose, to get an idea of what an untrained (or atleast non-martial art trained) person would try to hit me.

Keep the ideas coming. Salute!

[Klondike93]

I had the chance to practice a lot of the self defense techniques on someone that didn't know them so I got different reactions than someone that does. It helped with some what if things, cause some of them just didn't do what they were supose to.

warriorsage: what about padding and protection? what kinds do you use? what about power, how much? Last, what kinds of conclusions have you come to so far?

:asian:

[RCastillo]

If I'm right about what I read here, I agree with many of the posts. I use it as a tool , means of conditioning, and develop my skills. It's tougher working against someone who has the same skills as you do, but makes you work harder. But in the past, I've gotten too comfortable with the pads, so that can become a problem. I work on NOT being too comeitive with my partners because there is little merit involved, and I'm not going all out, and using all my tools either.

Thanks for listening!:)

[warriorsage]

Klondike, we pad up as usual for this type of sparring, which usually means hand pads, mouth piece and groin protection. We don't usually wear head gear or foot pads, but do wear athletic shoes. It should also be noted that we don't do this 100 miles an hour, really trying to nail each other. I'd like to eventually work up to that pace, but for now it's been interesting trying to actually learn what to do and how to move against these attacks. I've found that I need to use the sparring mentality (instead of technique mode) at this point. Every time I've tried to actually do a technique, I've been caught off guard because I was thinking too much. This I think is more a biproduct of my lack of skill and experience, not a knock against doing techniques. I also think it has showed me that I don't have the tech's hardwired enough into my being to make them really work like they should. —Peace

[brianhunter]

Man many well said points......I think sparring has many positives, such as developing stamina, seeing physical attacks, and learning some positioning. The only problem I see is it is not close to what a real world situation will be. Like any training I think you need to incorporate other training ideas and techniques to work more of your warrior aspect.

[Goldendragon7]

You guys have a good start! I really like to spar for several reasons....... many which have been mentioned above. I also (used to) like to fight full contact. I quit because the training was so hard for so little. but the benefits were great but painful. lol.....

I was one of those rare individuals that could switch back and forth with out too much trouble. Others have a hard time adjusting.

It is fun!

:asian: :D

[brianhunter]

full contact?? you mean tourney's have actually done that? (hint of sarcasim)

[Goldendragon7]

No not in tourneys...... but seperate events. But it has been a long time sine 1978! wow

somebody stoppppppp meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
:asian:

[Klondike93]

Have you been in any tournaments lately GD? Do you still sparr with the students?

Nosey bugger aint I :rofl:


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I haven't entered any tournaments in a while..... but I miss it. I don't spar as of late with my students either.....(they are too mean)! lol (but I'm on the comeback trail).

:asian:

[ikenpo]

I guess what I've concluded is that sparring is one type of fighting and self defense is another. When you perform a self defense technique it is normally against someone who is attempting to attack without you being aware of the attack. This would be what I would call an uncommitted situation. So you react accordingly. When you are stepped to by a person that is ready to attack you (i.e. hands up, moving around, etc..) I considered this to be a committed situation and would therefore probably take a more agressive posture, possibly a sparring posture if they were already aware that I "knew something". Another instance would be where you've done a technique and it didn't work now your in a committed situation.

Techniques weren't developed to be done verbatum in the heat of battle. The question is can you develop a mental congnition fast enough to at any point in altercation take a part of a self defense technique and apply it. Then can you progress to the point where you string those movements together into a spontaneous sequence until you can lock into a familiar pattern (technique)?

I don't think there is any shame is falling back into a "sparring" framework when all else fails. Particular if survival is the name of the game.

Just a thought, jb

[Goldendragon7]

Yes, after years of conditioning. I have done just that at times. But at other times I have reverted to just sparring. So it depends greatly on your frame of mind and conditioning and needs of the time.

:asian:

[Rainman]

Techniques weren't developed to be done verbatum in the heat of battle.

Why not?

:asian:

[ikenpo]

Maybe they were and I just haven't seen it done. Which doesn't mean anything because I haven't seen a lot of stuff. I mean I never saw the RIP in real life until I had Mr. C (GD7) show me.

I do remember hearing way back when, that Steve Sanders could execute full techniques during sparring matches. But then again Bruce Lee said he (Sanders) had the fastest hands he had ever seen.

Respectfully, jb

[KenpoTess]

We spar usually 2x week at our dojo, lining up facing our partner and wearing sparring gear. I, too am rather complacent about defending against backfists, kicks and the run-of-the mill white belt techniques. So on Fridays we have Sensei's choice, or Sempai's choice. I like to use the 'gauntlet' , Still in a controlled situation but with much more choices to defend against. Multiple opponents when a higher belt is chosen to be in the center ring.
this is good for the students as sometimes they get into headlocks, grappling situations and takedowns, and can utilize defenses against.
Sparring is great for the students - I have no doubt. I think there should be more real -life situations invoked in teaching utilizing what we've learned.

In the Spirit of Martial Arts

Tess

[Goldendragon7]

Condition and guts take over..... where knowledge and skill end.

Soooooo create drills that condition you more for those real life situations in your studio!

You are so on track!

:asian:

[Klondike93]

Are things like the gauntlet or technique lines things like that, is that considered sparring or drills?


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

more a drill. Not sparring.

:asian:

[Rainman]

Maybe they were and I just haven't seen it done. Which doesn't mean anything because I haven't seen a lot of stuff.

That would make 2 of us :D. However if you do a Kenpo version of sticky fists that would be an excellent place to learn in slowmo under pressure to do teks as you learned them. Over the months pick up the pace and this can be done with anyone including your wife (but stay slow there they really get mad if you clip them). It is worth some exploration.

:asian:

[Klondike93]

Thanks for helping, sparring your putting on the gloves and doing either point or semi-full contact.

Do you think sparring is a necessary part of self-defense training?


:asian:

[ikenpo]

I'm not that familiar with "sticky fists". I've read the description in Sacha Williams book of sparring drills, and it reads like a drill we've done from time to time. It still looks like a drill that isn't "alive" like sparring, but like I said I'm not sure if I've done it so excuse my ignorance.

jb

[ikenpo]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Do you think sparring is a necessary part of self-defense training?


:asian:

I would say absolutely, Gotta get in the water if ya want to know how to swim. It's a marital art so we've gotta put some hands on one another in an "alive" environment and not just against "stone statues" that let us beat up on them.:D

jb

[RCastillo]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Thanks for helping, sparring your putting on the gloves and doing either point or semi-full contact.

Do you think sparring is a necessary part of self-defense training?


:asian:

Let me add one very important point, if not already known. MAKE SURE IT'S CONTINUOUS TYPE SPARRING, NOT THAT POINT STUFF YOU SEE IN TOURNAMENTS!

Thanks:asian:

[Rainman]

.
I'm not that familiar with "sticky fists". I've read the description in Sacha Williams book of sparring drills, and it reads like a drill we've done from time to time. It still looks like a drill that isn't "alive" like sparring, but like I said I'm not sure if I've done it so excuse my ignorance.

It is not a drill. It is conceptual though. Ever do ne waza? Add strikes and stand up... or roll around if you have to. I was hoping that the term sticky fist might ring a bell but since it did not the term we use is checking hands.


Do you think sparring is a necessary part of self-defense training?

Yes. You must be able to hit on the move. Slipping, rooting momentarily, reactionary setups, alignment of bone and muscle groups under pressure give depth and demension to "ring generalship". In other words another tool for learning about dominance in its many fashions.

:asian:

[Roland]

..that Mrs. C gave our studio back in March.
I like the thought, just wanted to share.

{quote: Techniques weren't developed to be done verbatum in the heat of battle.


Why not? }


"techniques are lessons, not laws."

[Rainman]

Depends on what you are doing with the teks. From reseviors to rivers or knees to noses. Are you folding an opponent up or just trying to defend yourself? Not all teks are as what they appear to be. Striking is the simplist part to see... or is it?

[Seig]

Originally posted by Klondike93

Are things like the gauntlet or technique lines things like that, is that considered sparring or drills?


:asian:
Gauntlet= Sparring and Drill
Technique Line=Drill only
At least in our dojo.

[Goldendragon7]

When you really look at this string.....

EVERYTHING is a drill except for an actual encounter on the street ....

and even then that can be a drill in reality

Whewwwwwwwwww Man Rainman you are wearing on me...... :rofl:

:asian:

[Rainman]

EVERYTHING is a drill except for an actual encounter on the street ....

Or war.


Whewwwwwwwwww Man Rainman you are wearing on me......


:mad: Don't make me call and give you a talking to again. ;)

:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

:anic:

[Rainman]

:roflmao:
:roflmao:
:roflmao:
:roflmao:
:roflmao:


:asian:

[Goldendragon7]

I know you are trying to distract me and make me dizzy!

:rofl: :asian:

[Rainman]

:roflmao: :roflmao:


:roflmao: :roflmao:


:roflmao: :roflmao:



Your getting sleepy..... very sleepy...... sleeeeepy.... doooeenuts
nunnnnchaku setttt

:asian: