Bad mouthing Kata, and other martial arts training methods

[DeLamar.J]

I posted this reply in another thread, and I decided to make it its own thread. Mainly for people who always come in here bad mouthing kata, one steps, and most of karates training methods. This way they can jump right on a thread that explains it in detail why we do these things, instead of creating thread after thread. The title of this thread will catch there eye before they start to post a seperate one. If I left anything out feel free to add to it. It is very apparent there are alot of talented martial artists on this forum who can explain things in a way everyone can understand if I have not. This should lead to some interesting conversation. If you disagree with my post, please tell me why! The best way to understand is to question until you do understand. If I cant convince you otherwise then you are allowed to have your opinion, just put it out there so it can be discussed.


You have to learn to walk before you crawl! People like you talk down on pre arranged movements am I right? you dont seem to care for kata, am I right? First you have to learn to block a punch that is pre arranged before you can block a random one, thats why in karate we do pre arranged attacks. With starting out slow and teaching a student to block one specific technique at a time, the student gets a better understanding on how exactly to block a technique,and when its the students turn to attack, they learn exactly how to throw a punch, in exactly the right spot. Then once you have a basic idea on how to block and throw all the basic kicks and punches you are taught how to link them together properly, thats called kata, grasshopper. Once you get the basic idea of how to perform a kata, then you learn to spar, were everything comes together, there are no pre arranged movements. This slow learning process teaches the student a better idea of the science of martial arts because they just didnt throw on some gloves and beat the crap out of each other. This method of teaching also makes it more comfortable for a student who is afraid of getting hurt, it eases them into the martial arts, builds there confidence in there abillity and technique, so they can apply it in sparring and full contact sparring when they get a little more up there in rank. I hope this gives you a better idea on why we do things the way we do in karate. There is a reason for the way we do things. You talk like you think thats the way karate people fight, the only time there are pre arranged movements or patters is when your learning how to do a new technique properly so you can apply it in a fight. Higher ranking students have already been through this long, hard and sometimes boring learning process, and reap the benifits of training properly, and being able to use these techniques in a real fight. I still practice kata regularly to keep my technique honed and ready because if you dont use it you loose it. People like you see us doing kata and one steps and laugh but you have no idea why we do it, you think that because they are pre arranged movements and attacks that the unpredictabillity of a real fight will cause our methods to fail, when these exercises are only there to hone a students technique and teach them good foot work, we dont fight full contact in pre arranged movements. Have I gotten through to you? Do you understand now?

[Fightfan00]

I've always understood the use of kata.Karate just like other arts have a predetermined way of doing things.But poeple just dont want to understand that the use of kata is only a stepping stone for puting it all together in a situation of self defense and making it work.People are just seeing what they want to see in other arts and if its flashy then they like it,if its not the talk bad about,its just the way it goes I guess.Which is not right.I like your post and think people should read it and get it threw there heads! Joe

[Rick Wade]

I think this thread was aimed at my last post about Katas maybe I am wrong. Let me elaberate (so I cn get some more bad rep points). I have never disliked Katas as they were taught to me in American Kenpo. Then I moved and joined an Okinawan Kenpo School were they have (no Joke) 58 Katas to black belt and that isn't including the Kobudo Katas. Now I came from a defensive based system in which you got hit and hit someone elese every night you trained. In this system I haven't even worn a cup for over 4 months. That isn't a testiment as to how good I am that is a testiment as to how little self defense and sparring that they do. I say they do because I have recently quit going to the dojo (under good terms) and found an American Kenpo school here. Yes we do work on your sets and forms. I do love Katas, but in moderation. I really love to watch someone that is good in Katas and see how they move and such.

Further please don't take this thread as a harsh thread I believe Kata to be a very fundimental part of the martial arts just as important as a punch, block, self defense or even Kobudo. However, you need a balance.

Very Respectfully
Rick

[DeLamar.J]

crap, I just realized I put walk before crawl. lol :lol:

[Rick Wade]

crap, I just realized I put walk before crawl. lol :lol:

My wife acuses me of not knowing how to walk sometimes... Like when I stumble.


V/R
Rick

[Bammx2]

ya know what I'm seeing here?

some people like kata's...some don't. thats it,end of story.
I have 30yrs in the arts with a strong background in shotokan and shorinryu.
I don't teach kata's.....why? because *I* don't want too.
Wether there is a valid point to them in other peoples eyes or not...I choose not too.
A gun is a better combat solution....but choose not to carry one.
I still believe in chivalry!
BUT....when I have a student who wants a more traditional approach,I have a list of people who I am more than willing to send them to so they can have a choice.
There is enough out there to make everyone happy...and it does not make anyone less of a person,no matter what direction they choose.
I just think people are a morons for doggin someone elses descision.
"you don't like it?! go do something else!"

[DeLamar.J]

ya know what I'm seeing here?

some people like kata's...some don't. thats it,end of story.
I have 30yrs in the arts with a strong background in shotokan and shorinryu.
I don't teach kata's.....why? because *I* don't want too.
Wether there is a valid point to them in other peoples eyes or not...I choose not too.
A gun is a better combat solution....but choose not to carry one.
I still believe in chivalry!
BUT....when I have a student who wants a more traditional approach,I have a list of people who I am more than willing to send them to so they can have a choice.
There is enough out there to make everyone happy...and it does not make anyone less of a person,no matter what direction they choose.
I just think people are a morons for doggin someone elses descision.
"you don't like it?! go do something else!"
I get you completely. Thats exactly what I was wanting was an honest opinion. And I dont have much of an argument about what you do. I do have a question though. How do you teach the basic movements in combinations? I would assume you just put everyone in free fighting position and then call out the move your working on. And what about changing from stance to stance? But if you dont teach kata then I would think the only stance you would use is free fighting stance. Its just hard for me to think of ways to teach the art of karate skipping the kata.

[OC Kid]

I teach kata and make it a requirement for rank. I do it just to keep the tradition in the art. Im not anal where it has to be perfect and percise, but they have to know the moves and what they are doing in the form. FWIW I only know 16 kata.

[MJS]

I posted this reply in another thread, and I decided to make it its own thread. Mainly for people who always come in here bad mouthing kata, one steps, and most of karates training methods. This way they can jump right on a thread that explains it in detail why we do these things, instead of creating thread after thread. The title of this thread will catch there eye before they start to post a seperate one. If I left anything out feel free to add to it. It is very apparent there are alot of talented martial artists on this forum who can explain things in a way everyone can understand if I have not. This should lead to some interesting conversation. If you disagree with my post, please tell me why! The best way to understand is to question until you do understand. If I cant convince you otherwise then you are allowed to have your opinion, just put it out there so it can be discussed.


You have to learn to walk before you crawl! People like you talk down on pre arranged movements am I right? you dont seem to care for kata, am I right? First you have to learn to block a punch that is pre arranged before you can block a random one, thats why in karate we do pre arranged attacks. With starting out slow and teaching a student to block one specific technique at a time, the student gets a better understanding on how exactly to block a technique,and when its the students turn to attack, they learn exactly how to throw a punch, in exactly the right spot. Then once you have a basic idea on how to block and throw all the basic kicks and punches you are taught how to link them together properly, thats called kata, grasshopper. Once you get the basic idea of how to perform a kata, then you learn to spar, were everything comes together, there are no pre arranged movements. This slow learning process teaches the student a better idea of the science of martial arts because they just didnt throw on some gloves and beat the crap out of each other. This method of teaching also makes it more comfortable for a student who is afraid of getting hurt, it eases them into the martial arts, builds there confidence in there abillity and technique, so they can apply it in sparring and full contact sparring when they get a little more up there in rank. I hope this gives you a better idea on why we do things the way we do in karate. There is a reason for the way we do things. You talk like you think thats the way karate people fight, the only time there are pre arranged movements or patters is when your learning how to do a new technique properly so you can apply it in a fight. Higher ranking students have already been through this long, hard and sometimes boring learning process, and reap the benifits of training properly, and being able to use these techniques in a real fight. I still practice kata regularly to keep my technique honed and ready because if you dont use it you loose it. People like you see us doing kata and one steps and laugh but you have no idea why we do it, you think that because they are pre arranged movements and attacks that the unpredictabillity of a real fight will cause our methods to fail, when these exercises are only there to hone a students technique and teach them good foot work, we dont fight full contact in pre arranged movements. Have I gotten through to you? Do you understand now?


Very good post sir! I know that I'm one of those people who at times, has spoken bad about kata. I have done them for many years, and I still to this day do them. Though I've not spoken as highly about them as others, I still feel that they, like everything else, have their place. Take a boxer, as you've mentioned. They have their combos, which if you stop and think about it, are like doing a kata. The difference is, is that the boxer has no set pattern in which the moves can be done. In a kata, you must do those moves in the same fashion, otherwise, it changes the kata. Of course, taking the moves in the kata, such as what Dillman does, and being able to apply them...well, that is half the battle there. In addition, making sure that you're doing them on someone with some alivenss and ressitance..well that is also a big part.

Again, very good post.

Mike

[Corporal Hicks]

No actually he's aiming it at my recent thread. But trouble is maybe if somebody trained for so long in one art and they love it so much they just refuse to except what is thrown in their faces. I wasn't bad mouthing Kata my friend, I was just giving across my view point.

[DeLamar.J]

No actually he's aiming it at my recent thread. But trouble is maybe if somebody trained for so long in one art and they love it so much they just refuse to except what is thrown in their faces. I wasn't bad mouthing Kata my friend, I was just giving across my view point.

Well, anyone who belives that there style is the best and will not exept that cross training is essential, is not very smart or dont have enough real fights under there belt. At my school we cross train in boxing. We do go ju for the first class and boxing the next. I wish we did some grappling but we dont do much of that. I know how do do a good arm bar and a sleeper hold, thats about as far as my grappling skill goes. Cross training is a must. But when your learning karate you should learn the kata. Once you make black belt and you have an understanding of how to properly link together the stances and techniques, I can understand leaving kata behind for more practical training. But its a must for beginners. However, one of the katas in our style make go ju unique from alot of other styles. Its called sanchin breathing kata. That kata can give you so many benifits if you know how to do it properly, it is the most practical kata IMO. This kata strengthens you lungs, teaches you to breath properly, conditions your body to take blows, improves concentration when getting hit, teaches you to deal with pain. But alot of people are not familliar with this kata.

[ppko]

Of course, taking the moves in the kata, such as what Dillman does, and being able to apply them...well, that is half the battle there. In addition, making sure that you're doing them on someone with some alivenss and ressitance..well that is also a big part.
MikeAnother nice thing that Mr. Dillman has taught us is that as long as you find a sensible application to the kata than you are not wrong, in 1 move their may be as many as 50 different applications (if not more).

PPKO

[lonecoyote]

Focus, concentration, balance, flow, These are what kata can teach, and these things are definitely applicable in a real fight .

[ppko]

Well, anyone who belives that there style is the best and will not exept that cross training is essential, is not very smart or dont have enough real fights under there belt. At my school we cross train in boxing. We do go ju for the first class and boxing the next. I wish we did some grappling but we dont do much of that. I know how do do a good arm bar and a sleeper hold, thats about as far as my grappling skill goes. Cross training is a must. But when your learning karate you should learn the kata. Once you make black belt and you have an understanding of how to properly link together the stances and techniques, I can understand leaving kata behind for more practical training. But its a must for beginners. However, one of the katas in our style make go ju unique from alot of other styles. Its called sanchin breathing kata. That kata can give you so many benifits if you know how to do it properly, it is the most practical kata IMO. This kata strengthens you lungs, teaches you to breath properly, conditions your body to take blows, improves concentration when getting hit, teaches you to deal with pain. But alot of people are not familliar with this kata.I am very familiar with Sanchin as I also do this kata it is a very good kata some people believe it helps to heal the body (you are in a yang stance which is supposed to heal the body). If done properly the first couple of times you do it you should get a head rush. But you should never leave behind kata once you think you know it you don't know it, as their are so many applications to kata. This is one way the masters preserved their techniques, have you ever heard about Karate masters that only knew one kata and was considered deadly, well if you know your kata well enough than you'd understand what the stories were saying. I would suggest never throwing away kata unless you can not find someone that can help uncovering better applications for them, unless you know what you are doing with kata than they are useless (in self defense) and are just for good excersize.

Best Regards
PPKO

[MichiganTKD]

I agree. Each move in a form could very likely have more than one application. Really analyzing form to understand what it is you are doing can take years. It makes me appreciate them all the more when I understand what they are doing. Personally, doing form without understanding what you are doing is just as bad as not knowing form. Then you're just going through the motions.
But to digress. Form has many functions that people that don't practice form or look down on it can't understand. It is certainly not just a mechanical method to teach technique and self defense.
First, practicing form makes your body stronger because of the waist action, isometric tension, and stopping power. Not to mention exercising the legs from stance practice. Practicing form properly is HARD.
Second, form teaches gracefulness and fluidity. Guys tend to want to emphasize strenghth and force. Forms teaches them about agility, flow, gracefulness, and combination. For women, it is a good way to build up strength and power.
Finally, forms provides a good way of teaching technique application and putting combinations in proper context. It is not rigid at all. Quite the opposite.
Remember, if all you want is self defense buy a gun.

[ppko]

I agree. Each move in a form could very likely have more than one application. Really analyzing form to understand what it is you are doing can take years. It makes me appreciate them all the more when I understand what they are doing. Personally, doing form without understanding what you are doing is just as bad as not knowing form. Then you're just going through the motions.
But to digress. Form has many functions that people that don't practice form or look down on it can't understand. It is certainly not just a mechanical method to teach technique and self defense.
First, practicing form makes your body stronger because of the waist action, isometric tension, and stopping power. Not to mention exercising the legs from stance practice. Practicing form properly is HARD.
Second, form teaches gracefulness and fluidity. Guys tend to want to emphasize strenghth and force. Forms teaches them about agility, flow, gracefulness, and combination. For women, it is a good way to build up strength and power.
Finally, forms provides a good way of teaching technique application and putting combinations in proper context. It is not rigid at all. Quite the opposite.
Remember, if all you want is self defense buy a gun.I have a gun, but in all seriousness good post.

PPKO

[Sarah]

I love your post.

I am a beginner and we do Hyungs and one step, I really enjoy them. They are like a dance we learn to transition from stance to stance we learn co-ordination, balance, to focus power, timing, and when you get them good they look really impressive.

When we started one step it got my imagination working, we try different things, break them down see if they are effective, we try different locks, submission moves, and aggressive moves. It makes us think!

My Instructor was a bit of a naughty boy when he was younger, he use to practise move's on the street (this is in New Zealand). Now days he teaches the police, so we know that the techniques we are using for one step do actually work.

[ppko]

I love your post.

I am a beginner and we do Hyungs and one step, I really enjoy them. They are like a dance we learn to transition from stance to stance we learn co-ordination, balance, to focus power, timing, and when you get them good they look really impressive.

When we started one step it got my imagination working, we try different things, break them down see if they are effective, we try different locks, submission moves, and aggressive moves. It makes us think!

My Instructor was a bit of a naughty boy when he was younger, he use to practise move's on the street (this is in New Zealand). Now days he teaches the police, so we know that the techniques we are using for one step do actually work.
Are you talking about me, if so thank you, I am glad that your instructor can see all of those things many people will just say they are blocks or punches (as this is what we were told by we I mean Americans).

PPKO

[Sarah]

Are you talking about me, if so thank you, I am glad that your instructor can see all of those things many people will just say they are blocks or punches (as this is what we were told by we I mean Americans).

PPKO
Yep, one thing we do a lot is break down the Hyung's and learn the application for each move and the pressure points you are working on etc etc. It is really interesting and gives meaning to the moves, so when we are doing them we do them with more commitment and power, you can imagine someone there and it is no longer just a bunch of moves in sequence.
I also agree with the point you made about know one kata well. There is a saying that goes something like:

'Fear not a man that knows a thousand kicks, fear the man that knows one kick and practises it a thousand times a day'

Also what is this Sanchin Kata sounds interesting??

[Bammx2]

I get you completely. Thats exactly what I was wanting was an honest opinion. And I dont have much of an argument about what you do. I do have a question though. How do you teach the basic movements in combinations? I would assume you just put everyone in free fighting position and then call out the move your working on. And what about changing from stance to stance? But if you dont teach kata then I would think the only stance you would use is free fighting stance. Its just hard for me to think of ways to teach the art of karate skipping the kata.
When I teach,I break things down to almost the"molecular" level.
When I was a yung'un...I used to ask "why" and all I got was...because!
I need to know more,so I started learning about the human body,i.e....physiology,kineseology, sports medicine and so forth.
I learned what was putting undue stress on the body and how better to help people adapt to thier best abilities.
My syllabus for my first belt(yellow) is based in traditional basics so I can show people where the things I am teaching are comming from and then I can help them make the transition to thier own freestyle application.
I have a slight mix of applications...I like japanese base stances and linear movement as opposed to circular. I like savate kicking techniques as opposed to tkd. And I like western boxing combined with some japanese hand techniques. Oh yea....the muay thai knees and elbowshttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif
I understand completely about the whole "skipping the katas" part as not making the art whole and Lord knows I will never downplay tradition...God bless those who came before us!
But personally...as I got older and recieved a couple of permanent injuries,I realised there were traditional things I could no longer do...and that just just sucked!
So I learned to adapt ways around those problems,which meant letting some things go,and now I try to pass that education on the best I can.
I still go step by step,and to be honest...I lose most of my students in the first syllabus because its so damn monotonous and repetative.But it tests thier patience and makes damn sure they have a good grasp on the basic body mechanics and movements to achieve the choices of freestyle movements as they see fit.
Damn I am long windedhttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif
Where most classes are and hour...mine are 2. I will explain down to the very last detail I can and give both theoretical and practical applications.....not just "because".
I cater to the individual,not the masses,the best I can.
Good fighters are nice...but I like to train better teachers.
This is the short version of how I teach!
If I can answer anything else...please ask!

[ppko]

Yep, one thing we do a lot is break down the Hyung's and learn the application for each move and the pressure points you are working on etc etc. It is really interesting and gives meaning to the moves, so when we are doing them we do them with more commitment and power, you can imagine someone there and it is no longer just a bunch of moves in sequence.
I also agree with the point you made about know one kata well. There is a saying that goes something like:

'Fear not a man that knows a thousand kicks, fear the man that knows one kick and practises it a thousand times a day'

Also what is this Sanchin Kata sounds interesting??


I learned Sanchin in Ryukyu Kempo it is a breathing kata. Who is your instructor and what group is he with, I am with DKI. Are either one of these your instructor.
Paul Hinton
Self-Defence Systems
59 Ferry Rd
PO Box 323
Thames
011 64 7 8624971
paul@martialarts.co.nz

Lance & Ava Strong
7 Lush Avenue
St Johns, Auckland
New Zealand
011 649 528 2363
lance@qpod.co.nz



PPKO :asian:

[DeLamar.J]

When I teach,I break things down to almost the"molecular" level.
When I was a yung'un...I used to ask "why" and all I got was...because!
I need to know more,so I started learning about the human body,i.e....physiology,kineseology, sports medicine and so forth.
I learned what was putting undue stress on the body and how better to help people adapt to thier best abilities.
My syllabus for my first belt(yellow) is based in traditional basics so I can show people where the things I am teaching are comming from and then I can help them make the transition to thier own freestyle application.
I have a slight mix of applications...I like japanese base stances and linear movement as opposed to circular. I like savate kicking techniques as opposed to tkd. And I like western boxing combined with some japanese hand techniques. Oh yea....the muay thai knees and elbowshttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon10.gif
I understand completely about the whole "skipping the katas" part as not making the art whole and Lord knows I will never downplay tradition...God bless those who came before us!
But personally...as I got older and recieved a couple of permanent injuries,I realised there were traditional things I could no longer do...and that just just sucked!
So I learned to adapt ways around those problems,which meant letting some things go,and now I try to pass that education on the best I can.
I still go step by step,and to be honest...I lose most of my students in the first syllabus because its so damn monotonous and repetative.But it tests thier patience and makes damn sure they have a good grasp on the basic body mechanics and movements to achieve the choices of freestyle movements as they see fit.
Damn I am long windedhttp://www.martialtalk.com/forum/images/icons/icon11.gif
Where most classes are and hour...mine are 2. I will explain down to the very last detail I can and give both theoretical and practical applications.....not just "because".
I cater to the individual,not the masses,the best I can.
Good fighters are nice...but I like to train better teachers.
This is the short version of how I teach!
If I can answer anything else...please ask!
Sounds cool. You have your own style of teaching. :ultracool

[Sarah]

I learned Sanchin in Ryukyu Kempo it is a breathing kata. Who is your instructor and what group is he with, I am with DKI. Are either one of these your instructor.
Paul Hinton
Self-Defence Systems
59 Ferry Rd
PO Box 323
Thames
011 64 7 8624971
paul@martialarts.co.nz

Lance & Ava Strong
7 Lush Avenue
St Johns, Auckland
New Zealand
011 649 528 2363
lance@qpod.co.nz


PPKO :asian:

Havent heard of these instructors, I train with Steve Wallace in Hamilton, we train in mostly in TKD, but I think he has also trained in Karate. However I use to train in Wing Chun Do with Ian Waite who also teaches Ryukyu Kempo, is this Kata from Kempo??

[ppko]

Havent heard of these instructors, I train with Steve Wallace in Hamilton, we train in mostly in TKD, but I think he has also trained in Karate. However I use to train in Wing Chun Do with Ian Waite who also teaches Ryukyu Kempo, is this Kata from Kempo??
I am not sure where Sanchin comes from I will find out however.

Best Regards

PPKO:EG: :mad: :waah:

[ppko]

here is some stuff on Sanchin I did not have a chance to read through it all but from what I saw it looked alright

[QUOTE]History - Kata Sanchin

Sanchin is generally accepted as the oldest kata in Okinawan Karatedo. It's origin has been said to be related back to the stationary breathing exercises performed by Buddhist monks at the original Shaolin monastery.
These breathing exercises were developed by Bodhidharma to provide a regimen for the monks so that they would not fall asleep during long hours of meditation. The folklore says that these basic exercises were then expanded by succeeding Shaolin monks into a method of empty-hand combat so they could defend themselves and their monastery from invaders.

Sanchin is said to be similar to the original Iron Monk Form, Tei Shao Mu Tshien. Kanryi Higaonna brought a version of Sanchin to Okinawa in 1879 after studying Gung Fu in Fukien province in South China for nearly 15 years. Also for Kanbun Uechi it was one of the three original Pangainoon kata that he brought from China.

Sanchin was originally performed from one rooted stance. The inclusion of steps forward and backward were added later. Originally Sanchin was practiced with open hands. The original version of Sanchin Kata Higaonna Kanryo Sensei taught, was executed with three steps forward, a 180 degree turn, four steps in that direction, another 180 degree turn, one step forward and then one step backward. This version of Sanchin kata was practiced and taught by another Higaonna Kanryo Snesei's senior student Juhatsu Kyoda. Kyoda Sensei was a founder of To'on Ryu Karate-Doh. Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju-ryu, altered Sanchin to closed fists and developed his version of Sanchin kata with no turns but with three steps forward and two steps backwards.

Sanchin translates as "Three Conflicts" or "Three Battles" and is often referred to: mind, body and spirit. It is also that: posture (stance), tension (muscles) and proper breathing technique are in conflict until practiced, understood and applied. Therefore becoming harmonious and working in unison with each other.

Through Sanchin practice, beginning practitioners create the "Iron Shirt" and are ready to perform and execute advanced movements and techniques, Sanchin brings these together to create a state of enlightenment. Sanchin is a widely practiced kata, with minor variants in Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Isshinryu, Shito ryu and in Shorinjiryu.

In Naha-te derived Karate, Sanchin Kata was historically the first kata taught at the 10th Kyu/white belt level and forms the core of Karate systems such as Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu.

Kanbun Uechi, the founder of Uechi Ryu, felt that Sanchin Kata was so critical, that he required his students to study it for several years before progressing to the other kata.

Sanchin teaches neither new techniques nor fighting skills. It's purpose is said to be esoteric. Sanchin requires a lifetime of training. It involves deep tension breathing known as ibuki and precise body movement or tai sabaki. The different types of breathing are revealed at different stages in the learning of the kata. Many Sensei believe that Sanchin represents the true essence of Karate-do, both spiritually and physically and leads to ki development.

The basic step can serve as a throw, the basic strikes can be aimed at a variety of targets, and the circular motions have many applications in grappling, joint locks and breaking holds. The mere presence of the specialized Bushiken fist should inspire students to consider targeting strikes against a great many weak areas of the body.

Although Sanchin is a superficially simple drill, performing it correctly requires understanding on many levels. The details of body position and stance are easiest to learn; mastering the blocks and strikes or the steps and turns takes longer because all of them must be performed from one's center, with the participation of both the mind and the whole body. But Sanchin performed with only perfect motions is only half a kata; the whole exercise involves the intense concentration of mushin and specialized Sanchin breathing, which serves to protect the martial artist and clear the mind.

Understanding then integrating all these aspects of Sanchin takes years; perhaps the most interesting thing about Sanchin is that during those years it teaches itself. With a few words about the purpose of the movements, concentration or breathing, and occasional comments from an instructor, student's kata develop in all of their depth with practice. Once students have a solid understanding of the kata, it encourages them to think about the basics they have learned and apply them in many ways, in different situations, to meet a variety of needs.

Naha-te derived styles require the proper and consistent practice of Sanchin Kata to promote strong ki development, catharsis on physical, emotional, and mental levels, and breath control.

The only stance used in Sanchin is Sanchin-dachi. When in a Sanchin-dachi, the shoulders must not be lifted, the spine must be straight, your chest must be open and your stomach muscles must be tightened. Your chin must be drawn slightly towards your chest, this enables the wind pipe to be most effective when inhaling and exhaling. The gluteus maximus (buttocks) muscles must also be tightened, but do not make too much of the often seen exaggerated lifting of the pelvis. This lifting in itself causes the shoulders to cave in, thus again affecting the breathing. There should be no unnecessary restriction placed on the body, e.g.: hips not on the same plane as the ground (horizontal).

From musubi-dachi no kamae, do not step forward in Sanchin-dachi, but rather simultaneously sink your body and slide your right foot in a circular fashion into migi-Sanchin-dachi. Ensure that the heel of the front foot is in line with the toes of the rear foot. The width between the feet should be the width of your hips. Your toes should be gripping the floor by spreading the toes as far as possible and grip the floor like the roots of a tree. This is known as tako ashi. Both feet should be turned inward, and the knees must be bent directly over the toes. The knees, as in all stances, must be pointing in the same direction as the toes. The eyes must be fixed firmly forward as if gazing at a far mountain. The chest must remain open so that breathing is not restricted.

[Sensei Henderson: in the version we practice the first motion is a step backward with the left foot in a circular motion placing the karateka in the same position as described above, all other things above applicable.]

When stepping forward in Sanchin-dachi, the feet never lift up off the floor. The movement must be of a sliding nature with the feeling that only one sheet of paper can slide between your soles and the floor. This movement is termed suri ashi. Keep your muscles tight when moving and use a circular sliding foot movement. Focus must always be placed on the heel when moving backwards in Sanchin-dachi, it must not lift off the floor - a common error. The muscles of the body must be tense during the entire duration of the kata and the breathing must be co-ordinated with all foot movements.

[Sensei Henderson: In the version we practice the last statement is true for the parts of the kata that are executed in Sanchin-dachi, however not applicable in the other portions.]

Sometimes the mind will drift off, actively keep it alive and stimulated and always keep your tanden full of strength. Do not rush in your practice and remember consistent practice, focusing on the above, will make your Sanchin-dachi a natural movement for you.

[Sensei Henderson: The above is a true statement with regards to all kata exercise]

At the early stages of Sanchin, training focus must be placed on the coordination of the breath with the correct execution of the techniques. The simple techniques of the kata involve only basic punches, chest blocks, and circular blocks.

Each technique demands the karateka to focus under extreme tension. Although the techniques are elementary, the breathing is decidedly complex. Due to the slow ibuki breathing, Sanchin is a long kata to perform in terms of elapse time. At the end of the kata, the air remaining in the karateka's lungs is expelled in three sharp burst.

[Sensei Henderson: This last closing breathing technique is not practiced in our version but is replaced by one continuous, concentrated exhale.]

In some styles, when a student is tested on Sanchin, an upper rank delivers multiple blows to the student's body whose muscles are tensed. This is known as Sanchin shime testing.

[Sensei Henderson: This practice is not followed in our school.]

Isshinryu Master, Tatsuo Shimabuku stated there was not any discernable fighting application for Sanchin Kata, and its purpose was exclusively to develop muscle tension and conscious breathing.

In 1962, Jui Meng, a famous Shaolin Monk, stated that "the lungs are reservoirs of air, and the air is the lord of strength. Whomever speaks of strength must know of air."

Many Okinawan Karate authorities criticize the regular practice of Sanchin Kata for health reasons. Sanchin is a pseudo-isotonic and pseudo-isometric exercise which enables one to achieve and sustain a high heart rate with low impact. The deep tension breathing in Sanchin also opens the lungs, increases blood circulation, opens the capillaries, strengthens the heart muscle, massages the lymph system, and opens epidermal glands. However, Sanchin has also been blamed for the early deaths of many Okinawan karate masters, manly from Naha-te based karate styles, which practice Sanchin rigorously.

Sanchin should always be practiced with dynamic tension and students must be careful to proceed slowly when learning this kata and clalify its purpose. An already healthy individual will not experience any adverse effects from Sanchin, but an individual prone to heart problems should exercise extreme caution.

As a spiritual and mental exercise, Sanchin provides numerous benefits. It induces memory, both nuero-muscular and cerebral, of the feeling of being either hard or soft. This is beneficial because it enables one to obtain an awareness of inappropriate muscular or mental tightness or looseness. Sanchin also serves as a strict Zen exercise of breathing and mushin (no-mindedness) and induces calm, awareness and egoless confidence. It also develops ki by focusing the energy into a single-minded purpose.

[Sensei Henderson: This is the essence of Kata for all kata exercise and not solely Sanchin.]

From an historical perspective, Shinan Dr. Kori Hisataka, the founder of Kenkokan Karatedo and teacher of Shinan Donivan, may have learned Sanchin Kata from his friend and training partner Chojun Miyagi, the founder of Goju Ryu Karatedo, and modified it to the version used today with our own style. Some exponents of Naha-te derived kata would argue that our version of Sanchin is not Sanchin Kata at all, because of the lack of slow ibuki breathing or isometric muscle tension.

[Sensei Henderson: This argument seems to be one of magnitude only and not whether the principle lessons of the kata remain. Our version of Sanchin still focuses on all the principle lessons and includes the same elements as the original kata or other kata versions.][QUOTE]

Best Regards
PPKO :EG: :mad: :waah:
ps all info came from http://www.henderson-ryu.net/Sanchin.htm

[cfr]

My take on katas is this:

If you beleive in them, nobody can talk you out of them. You will defend they're practice and beleive in them whole heartedly. You will cast aside any arguement you hear against them and have lots of good reasons as to why they should be practiced.

If you dont beleive in them nobody can talk you into them. They will appear to be a silly waste of time and your head will never shut up about how rediculous they are. You may have even @ one time been willing to give it a shot, but just cant seem to beleive in they're value no matter who says how benificial they are.


I beleive in them... but only for other people. I know lots of people here really cant imagine training without them and I think thats great. I beleive that if you beleive in them and that they can help your training, you should do them with enthusiasm. If however, you just cant seem to see the benifit to spending 5 - 10 minutes learning to do the perfect downward block while turning to your 6 into the perfect cat stance, you should go elsewhere. IMO that doesnt mean you're a bad apple, have a short fuse, have no patience, or have no business learning how to fight in the first place. It could mean some of that, but not always. It could also mean that you've read about too many people that did them for years, got good at them ,beleived in them, spent time perfecting them, and then one day said, "this is lame." It could mean that you've read about too many people that have gone before you that invested lots of time and then thought of it as a waste. One more point, just because people like me dont like kata doesnt mean we dont understand why you do them. All too often its thought by the pro kata people that people who dont like kata "just dont understand". I think its possible to understand but still not like them.

To me, this is something for each individual to answer for himself.

[DeLamar.J]

My take on katas is this:

If you beleive in them, nobody can talk you out of them. You will defend they're practice and beleive in them whole heartedly. You will cast aside any arguement you hear against them and have lots of good reasons as to why they should be practiced.

If you dont beleive in them nobody can talk you into them. They will appear to be a silly waste of time and your head will never shut up about how rediculous they are. You may have even @ one time been willing to give it a shot, but just cant seem to beleive in they're value no matter who says how benificial they are.


I beleive in them... but only for other people. I know lots of people here really cant imagine training without them and I think thats great. I beleive that if you beleive in them and that they can help your training, you should do them with enthusiasm. If however, you just cant seem to see the benifit to spending 5 - 10 minutes learning to do the perfect downward block while turning to your 6 into the perfect cat stance, you should go elsewhere. IMO that doesnt mean you're a bad apple, have a short fuse, have no patience, or have no business learning how to fight in the first place. It could mean some of that, but not always. It could also mean that you've read about too many people that did them for years, got good at them ,beleived in them, spent time perfecting them, and then one day said, "this is lame." It could mean that you've read about too many people that have gone before you that invested lots of time and then thought of it as a waste. One more point, just because people like me dont like kata doesnt mean we dont understand why you do them. All too often its thought by the pro kata people that people who dont like kata "just dont understand". I think its possible to understand but still not like them.

To me, this is something for each individual to answer for himself.
Some people just prefur to train in the manner they fight. But that still doesnt mean that most wont benift kata if they learn it PROPERLY. I know alot of guys who used to fight full contact and would do sanchin about 30 minn before there fight and said it makes alot of difference in there performance. That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.

[tshadowchaser]

That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.
How verry true. I knew one gentelman who only did Sanchin Kata. He was a fine physical speciman well into his sixties and had abdominal muscles that looked like he came out of a Golds gym. He always said it was the best feeling to do it early in the morning.

[ppko]

That kata is also better than foldgers in your cup in the morining if you know how to do it properly.
How verry true. I knew one gentelman who only did Sanchin Kata. He was a fine physical speciman well into his sixties and had abdominal muscles that looked like he came out of a Golds gym. He always said it was the best feeling to do it early in the morning.I do sanchin every morning along with all my other katas and they really do help to energize you

PPKO

[Sarah]

I do sanchin every morning along with all my other katas and they really do help to energize you

PPKO
I would love to learn more about this Kata, do you know of any videos?? I am defiantly a visual learner.

[ppko]

I would love to learn more about this Kata, do you know of any videos?? I am defiantly a visual learner.


I don't really know of any videos I am sure they are out there though

[DeLamar.J]

I dont think you can learn Sanchin from a video. Alot of it is very internal, the breathing is the most important part. The movements are easy and can be learned in a day or two, but the internal part will take you years. I dont belive you can learn it from video but who knows.

[ShenChuan_Ninja]

I am not familiar with Katas personally, since my art doesn't teach them. I personally have no interest in them. I find that most times in a fight, the guy blindsides me, or throws a punch when i may not be expecting it. Like Muhammad Ali said "Everyone has a plan until they get hit" and i see Katas as a "plan". But, on the other hand, i believe they might help with foot work, and yeah they do look cool i think :) . But as far as being practical, im not so sure. i also understand them as being a "stepping stone", but alot of times, its much harder to unteach, than it is to teach. If a student gets too caught up in forms and katas, he may find himself waking up with a crowd around him/her.

In Shen Chuan, we have "sets", usually 10-15 techniques. They include all different attacks from standing, and ground fighting. But what we hope to get from these pre-designed sets is the muscle memory of countless techniques. If someone grabs my collar and punches at me, it doesn't mean im going to react like i would from number 9 in the green belt set. Hopefully, what i hope to achieve is the spontanious aspect of Shen Chuan. Not "knowing" what im going to do until i do it. The person attacking usually opens up opportunities against himself everytime he moves a muscle!

But, whatever floats your boat :)

[Lisa]

Kata, simply put is not for me.

I started my MA training doing karate and learning kata. I guess I never "got" its significance. To me it was like learning dance steps. As much as my instructor may have tried it just wasn't in me to see much more then that. No ones fault but my own. I know other martial artists that can truly see the importance of it and I am glad for them. No need to bash what someone else enjoys just because it doesn't suit me.

I guess as Adam put it... it just doesn't float my boat.

[rmcrobertson]

Regrettably, not everything in the world is simply a matter of personal preference and individual opinion.

[DeLamar.J]

Regrettably, not everything in the world is simply a matter of personal preference and individual opinion.
Yep, If something is hard or to challenging people dont want to do it. To bad for them I guess, because they will never truly learn martial arts styles like karate.

[SMP]

I have never been a big fan of Katas or forms. pinions (because I am a slow learner) but I am a firm believer in their necessity. They have been very helpful in developing the mental/chi sides as opposed to the physical. Now I look at forms as having the opportunity to have multiple mental fights without the physical abuse. (yes we still do a lot of sparring) Further once in a tournament I did a series of moves that worked perfectly winning the match and the devision. It wasnt until I watched the match on video did I realize the combination came right out of a pinion.

[Drag'n]

I have to be honest.With regards to using kata to learn the building blocks of combat, I think it is almost useless.
My experience of Katas in traditional MA's (TKD,Karate,Shaolin KF) was alot of solid immobile stances, telegraphed punches thrown from the hip, often with a lunge step, and blocks which required a retracting move before an extended one. Plus a whole lot of beautiful but impractical animal movements, double strikes,jumping kicks etc.
Application was often only taught verbally.eg; "this is to block a front kick" or if the technique was demonstrated, it was against a slow tellegraphed attack.
SOME of the moves would be practised in 1 step sparring.Again against slow single technique attacks, where you might do 2 or 3 movements while your willing partner stands there and lets you do it."Good" dojos would have you refine these techniques till you could perform them against a full speed attack actually aimed near your targets.But generally without resistance , combinations or follow up attacks against you.
From there you jump to sparring, and find yourself wondering "why cant I use those blocks from my kata? Am I just too slow?
And is there anybody out there who actually uses Horse/cat/bow/pigion toe/crane stances when they freespar?
Can any of you relate to what I'm saying here?
I found this to be an extreamly frustrating and confusing experience.Even though I was the best at kata in my school, and the sharpest, fastest techniques, I would often lose to opponents far less skilled then I was in tournaments because I couldn't apply many of my techniques in a practical manner.
Then I started Muay Thai.
NO katas.
1 step sparring was used with light contact and always aimed to your targets.i.e. your partner actually TRIES to hit you.First with single techniques, then against combinations. Then you would take one area of your defence and have your partner throw random attacks.First slow then building up in speed.
The techniques were always simple and practical with a minimum of waisted movement.Your partner always to a fighting stance immediately after throwing the technique.Never just standing there while you do a bunch of moves.
You would be given alternatives on what to do in various circustances and always taught to keep yourself guarded against follow up attacks.
Techniques are practised in the air,in the form of shadow boxing, but always with realistic foot work,and using your own intelect to imagine an opponent before you and "fight" him in the same way that you would spar.
Which is quite different to Kata.
AAAAAAH Im out of time . have to go and train.

[Marginal]

One of the problem with the perception of kata comes from not being able to seperate the technique from the training tool. For example, when someone says "If you get in a fight, you'll punch from the hip and get clobbered." They're missing the positives that punching motion in the kata introduces. Chambering at the hip etc all encourages you to keep your elbows in, even when you move to free sparring. You're not still punching from the hip then, but the exaggeration gets the principle across.

Same thing with stances. Do you fight from a static stance, or specifically from a horse stance etc in free fighting? Nope. Doesn't mean you don't hit on them while you're in motion even if it's briefly.

Even if you blithely discount those, it's about the same as discounting wrestling drills, NHB stances, boxing footwork etc. It doesn't make sense. The're all just the means to the end, not the end in of theselves. If you were losing in tournaments it wasn't because you weren't able to use the techniques, it's because you couldn't see the forest for the trees, and the people who could see the bigger picture excelled where you stagnated.

[Drag'n]

Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.

[Drag'n]

One of the problem with the perception of kata comes from not being able to seperate the technique from the training tool. For example, when someone says "If you get in a fight, you'll punch from the hip and get clobbered." They're missing the positives that punching motion in the kata introduces. Chambering at the hip etc all encourages you to keep your elbows in, even when you move to free sparring. You're not still punching from the hip then, but the exaggeration gets the principle across.

Same thing with stances. Do you fight from a static stance, or specifically from a horse stance etc in free fighting? Nope. Doesn't mean you don't hit on them while you're in motion even if it's briefly.

Even if you blithely discount those, it's about the same as discounting wrestling drills, NHB stances, boxing footwork etc. It doesn't make sense. The're all just the means to the end, not the end in of theselves. If you were losing in tournaments it wasn't because you weren't able to use the techniques, it's because you couldn't see the forest for the trees, and the people who could see the bigger picture excelled where you stagnated.
OK the point is: the drills ,stances ,footwork used in modern systems are based on realistic tried and tested techniques.They are fluid and translate DIRECTLY into sparring movements.Theirs no hinting at ,no hiding,no exagerations and no BS.I've seen many a fight between traditional MAtists where once the contact starts all their precision and poise goes straight out the window and it turns into an embarrassing flurry of wild punches and kicks.Why? because their training methods didnt resemble actual combat.
AND the reason I sometimes lost was symply because my opponents were more aggressive . The defensive techniques I had been taught were not effective enough to hold off someone whos really intent on knocking your head off.

[rmcrobertson]

There's a great article by Dave Lowry in a recent, "Journal of Asian Martial Arts," concerning kata.

Among other thiongs, he quotes a "Peanuts Cartoon," where Lucy and Linus are sitting on the floor, reading a book and laughing...Charlie Brown asks, "Why are you laughing?"

The response is, "Because we don't understand it."

Hm.

[Marginal]

I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?


Yep. But then, the techniques I've learned aren't obscure, and I wasn't trying to apply them with no understanding of how to do so. (Still not sure how you can claim you posessed "greater skill" when you were getting beaten down while aso advocating results based MMA groupspeak but whatever...)

[rmcrobertson]

And why blame the forms and the practice for our stupidity?

[qizmoduis]

And why blame the forms and the practice for our stupidity?

It's easier, of course. Blaming is far easier than doing.

[BlackCatBonz]

well IMHO, i think everything you do in life can be turned into a kata. they are like the ABC's of martial arts. to think that kata's are strictly a set of techniques to be used concurrently in a fight is ludicrous. drag'n, you related about your muay thai experience in training, to me this would be considered kata. you could practice the same movements with or without another person to help you. if you can make a martial application out of brushing your hair or opening a door.....that too is a kata. when teaching someone a gedan barai for instance.....i never refer to it as a downblock for a kick.....and any teacher that does that has missed the boat. the name gedan barai means lower parry, and when practiced properly the hands arms legs and body should move in harmony creating an alignment advantageous to self defense. also, i see lots of people that practice kata's go into the actual stance at the completion of every technique........start-stop-start-stop.....if people walked down the street like that it would make an excellent short movie for monty python's ministry of silly walks. kata's are about transition from one movement to another while creating alignments. with the gedan barai, its final resting place somewhere above your thigh just happens to be the end of the movement, not the technique itself. what about all the stuff that happens before it even gets there? i see uchi uke, kote gaeshi, shiho nage, endless possibilities. btw.....i wasnt directing this at you drag'n....i was merely using your experience with muay thai as an example.

as you can probably tell.....i love kata

shawn bailey

ps.....if you go to the martialtalk reference library.....you can find a downloadable video for sanchin......and its done excellent

[rmcrobertson]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.

[ppko]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.I agree to certain point, I at one time stopped doing kata as did our whole school because at the time kata was useless to us it was just a dance. But once I ot with the organization I am with now (DKI) I now do kata on a regular basis it has opened my eyes to a whole new world. I would say that if you can find a instructor that can show you some good break downs than stay with them and learn from them but until you can see for yourself what I am talking about than you will never understand

[BlackCatBonz]

I've decided that the folks who practice martial arts that have kata, and who refuse to take them seriously because they don't see the point, should continue forward doing exactly what they're doing.

They are absolutely right. One hundred percent. Keep up the good work.

After all, there are no secrets in kata. Except, of course, that the ones people insist upon putting there.
i think i detected a sarcastic tone in this......lol

shawn

[D.Cobb]

Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.Have you tested them against a trained fighter?Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.

That is the truley sad part of it. People teaching kata have absolutely no idea what it is that they are supposed to be teaching.
Kata, won't teach you how to fight in real time, and was never meant to. Kata will teach you, principles you need to be effective in a fight.
Kata will teach you concepts to be internalised so that you can use them when you are in a fight.
Kata will show you targets to be struck, and how to strike them when you are in a fight.
Kata will teach you about body mechanics, (ie. which foot forward makes this hammer fist work best?), and how to utilise your best assets in a situation.
Kata will teach you the geometry of a fight, which angle works best, in what direction etc.
Kata will teach you how to breathe and maintain control in a situation, once you've trained it right.
Kata wont teach you timing or distancing, or WHAT IF? factors. For this you need drills, which when broken down to their very base element could be construed as mini katas.

The real problem though is that a lot of our martial arts instructors attempt to teach something they have no comprehension of. It's kind of like, learning to swim by reading a book. But to make it harder for you, the book is written in Japanese, and you only speak English. Sometimes it's because they got out on their own before developing a true understanding, and sometimes it's because their teacher didn't know either.
Either way, it is a shame.
Sorry about the long winded post.

--Dave

[D.Cobb]

i think i detected a sarcastic tone in this......lol

shawn

I find it hard to believe that anyone would ever detect a sarcstic tone in any post by rmcrobertson :ultracool

--Dave

[rmcrobertson]

Nah. If you wanna see me waxing sarcastic, figure out how to get me started on, a) gawdawful kata at tournements by "senior," figures in American kenpo; b) "traditional," martial artists; c) phonyism in competition kata; d) phony ki-ais; e) ESPN and Satan.

[BlackCatBonz]

Nah. If you wanna see me waxing sarcastic, figure out how to get me started on, a) gawdawful kata at tournements by "senior," figures in American kenpo; b) "traditional," martial artists; c) phonyism in competition kata; d) phony ki-ais; e) ESPN and Satan.
lol

shawn

[RRouuselot]

Those are all good points.
And I'm sure some of you do use more practical steps in the process of taking your kata moves to an applyable level.No doubt I had alot of bad teachers.None of my traditional teachers had been in a realistic confrontation and it showed in their teaching methods.But before I did MT I was too naive to recognise the difference.Sadly I think my experience was a very common one among traditional martial artists.
After MT ,every dojo I visited reeked of impracticality.I'm not trying to say MT is the best and everyone should do it.Far from it. But MT did open my eyes to the faults in the teaching methods common to traditional MA.
The argument that understanding a kata takes years is not a good argument for the use of it as a SD training tool.Quite the opposite.
Hiding techniques within katas, and stylising their movements may have had a good purpose in fuedal societies where ordinary people were banned from martial training or to keep their fighting secrets from enemy spies.But today any Joe can go to a MMA or kick boxing gym and learn the most effective techniques, proven and tested in countless full contact matches,through the most efficient training methods.They learn how to fight FAST.And they dont get the benefit of the deeper spiritual and character developing purposes behind traditional arts.They're tough , like to fight,and are itching for a chance to prove how dangerous they are.Indeed some of them are a big danger..to society that is.
1) The reason I'm so critical of kata is because I've seen too many dojos teaching rediculous moves from katas against telegraphed unrealistic attacks,and poor students who havent had the experience to know any better get sucked into thinking these moves will actually work.
I waisted too many years/money/ sweat/ blood/trying to perfect BS defensive techniques based on hearsay of their effectiveness.
I'm also concerened about the direction that some modern MA are taking .I
think traditionalists really have to open their eyes and take a good hard look at their techniques and training methods.2)Have you tested them against a trained fighter? Do you have the confidence in your art to try?
If we want the traditional values and ideals to survive I think we have to really put our methods to the test and bring them to a compatible level with modern fighting systems.
Truth is I love practising kata.But only as a means of self perfection.Its like meditation in motion for me, and it has many benifits.But I've never seen anyone who could convince me that kata is an essential tool for learning how to fight.But I'm always open to new possibilities.Maybe someone will someday prove me wrong.I hope so.I'd love to teach kata someday.
But for the moment I can only speak truthfully according to what I have seen and experienced.

1) brother I feel ya on that one! I too have seen too many dojo in Japan that just taught garbage plain and simple. They taught unrealistic definitions for movements in the kata that were only equaled by un-realistic fight scenarios/situations.

2) Yup. And untrained ones which due to their lack of training can be more unpredictable and sometimes more dangerous, but not always.

[Drag'n]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!

[RRouuselot]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!
Glad you enjoyed the training. We just ran through some basic stuff yesterday rather quickly. You are always welcome to come and train with us.
I have to admit you surprised me the other day. Most people from these MT, E-Budo, etc that come to my dojo to train have not been high caliber people and always want to let me know how many dan ranks they collected, or try and tell me how much they “know”. More often than not they can’t perform the most basic of techniques and don’t last one class. However, you didn’t do any of that you just jumped into the training and kept going even after you got your nose split open and started bleeding all over the bogu gear. (Believe it or not that gear is supposed to stop injuries) I gotta respect that. You showed good martial spirit and didn’t complain. How is your nose by the way? You are one of a small handfull of people (3-4) that could actually hack it the first class. I personally don't think that we train that hard though.
I can’t blame you for the things you posted earlier.........It’s the same sort of stuff I have seen in Japan for the last 16 years.....I just feel sorry for the folks that not knowing better waste time, money and sweat in some dojo that they think is teaching something of use only to find out months or even years later, sometimes the hard way, that what they learned was basically a waste of their time and energy. Then go around and tell folks that kata doesn’t mean didlly squat, and karate sucks.
I have to agree most of what I see in so called "traditional" schools does suck and is a waste of time. Hopefully over time things will change.

[D.Cobb]

Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.
Drag'n, I think Robert would back me on this, if they took offense, then they weren't REAL karateka.


Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!
Ahh the sign of a REAL karateka! Eager to learn new things!
:-partyon:

--Dave

[BlackCatBonz]

kudos to robert!
i agree that not many schools understand or even teach proper bunkai of kata.....and if they did i think we would have a lot fewer students out there hating it instead of enjoying their intricacies.

shawn

[RRouuselot]

Drag'n, I think Robert would back me on this, if they took offense, then they weren't REAL karateka.

Ahh the sign of a REAL karateka! Eager to learn new things!
:-partyon:

--Dave I think what Drag'n did took some real "stones" and showed maturity.
He didn’t just sit at his PC and keep discussing his views about kata and people that do them like most people do......he actually pulled himself away and went looking for what might be the truth. Too many people on these boards get an opinion and never back it up with facts or actions and I think it's because they might fear that what they find might not be what they expected. It's good to see it when someone has the courage to put his ego aside and take an objective look around.

[ppko]

I decided to find out once and for all if there was any basis for the arguement for kata practise.After reading some of his posts I figured Robert Rousselot would be the man to see.BOY did he open my eyes!
Kata movements which are usually refered to as blocks or silly looking strikes turned out to be joint attacks/atemi waza/takedowns/chokes/even submission! All practised in a realistic mannor, and then used effectively(on me)in a full contact freesparing situation.I was very impressed.Those of you who practise these kind of no nonsense SD skills from your kata have my utmost respect.
Sorry if any of my earlier comments offended any of you real karateka.But you cant blame me really eh? After all much of what I said still applies to probably 90% of the dojos around.
Its sad that there are so many BS systems and teachers out there giving real Martial artists a poor image.
Now I cant wait to get back out to Roberts dojo and learn some kata!I find this to be very admirable, while me and Rob do not get along I believe we both are striving for the same thing. I am glad that you can now see what smoe of us have seen and I hope that you continue on this path:ultracool

[RRouuselot]

I find this to be very admirable, while me and Rob do not get along I believe we both are striving for the same thing. I am glad that you can now see what smoe of us have seen and I hope that you continue on this path:ultracool
Joe,

No offense but actually after reading some of the stuff you write and seeing your gross lack of knowledge(1) on certain concepts and techniques concerning kyusho/atemi/MA in general you are the exact type of dojo I would suggest he avoid. (No touch KO's, Kiai jutsu???:rolleyes::rolleyes: )
After reading some of the drivel you put up on most of the boards I belong to I seriously doubt (no matter how much you would like think) that we are "striving for the same thing".

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.

[D.Cobb]

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.


Oh Robert, you know, I am truly suprised at how many people, really don't know the answer to this. I figure it's ok, if you aren't involved in the kind of school that claims to use either one, but if you're spouting the terms, then like you, I think people, should know what they spoutin'. :D

Of course though, it can be just like kata. Senseii teaches "a = x", and from now on until taught otherwise, a will always = x

--Dave

[ppko]

Joe,

No offense but actually after reading some of the stuff you write and seeing your gross lack of knowledge(1) on certain concepts and techniques concerning kyusho/atemi/MA in general you are the exact type of dojo I would suggest he avoid. (No touch KO's, Kiai jutsu???:rolleyes::rolleyes: )
After reading some of the drivel you put up on most of the boards I belong to I seriously doubt (no matter how much you would like think) that we are "striving for the same thing".

1) You couldn't tell, among other things, me the difference between atemi and kyusho.....sort of a fundamental thing to know if you are truly studying these arts.How can I not take offense, have I ever once stated that I can do the no touch kos, no I also do not teach them. I do teach some kiai jitsu. But hey, you can just keep studying the way you do and I will keep studying the way I do.

[RRouuselot]

How can I not take offense, 1)have I ever once stated that I can do the no touch kos, no I also do not teach them. 2)I do teach some kiai jitsu. But hey, 3)you can just keep studying the way you do and I will keep studying the way I do.1) No but you have stated your belief in them, condone there teaching, and your teacher, George Dillman seems to put a lot of stock in there worth.

2) Kiai jitsu.........Just as bogus as the no touch KO's

Anytime you guys think No touch Kos and Kiai jitsu, (the word is jutsu BTW) will work under controlled circumstances, meaning not your students being ukes among other things, then I will consider looking into them. Until such time I doubt they work. The mpeg of the "Master" in Chicago that is Dillman student speaks volumes. He could only make it work on his students, he couldn't make it work on anyone that wasn't his student........including a tiny little female news reporter!!! Having said that the fat slob almost fell when trying to deliver a kick......that guy need to seriously get back to the basics of karate and WORK OUT and SWEAT instead of relying on some hocus-pocus crap.

3) Please do.......people will see your no touch KOs and Kiai jitsu and eventually find out how bogus it is then they will get tired of your chop-sockey garbage

[grappling_mandala]

Aliveness is aliveness. Most kata practitioners need to practice stillness before they get the full benifit of kata. What kata has to teach is between the lines of the 'stops'. To much modern kata practice is a series of stops. If the essense of every core movement is understood then any kata makes sense. I think the part of kata that people don't often practice is the stillness aspect of it. If they are serious about understanding the essense of the form, they should do this.

Also on the percieved different between 'practice' and 'reality'... If you can't slip someone reaching out to touch your forehead can you slip even a 'fake punch'?
If you can slip a prerehearsed punch, can you slip someone randomly reaching out to touch your forehead?

The misunderstood concept of 'kata' vs. 'practical' I think should be one. With the proper application of progressive resistance and focus of energy any movement is alive. It's about honesty. People who can 'spar' with nothing but 10% featherweight movement and progress from there learn fast. They discover the connection of the whole quicker.

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon

[RRouuselot]

Aliveness is aliveness. Most kata practitioners need to practice stillness before they get the full benifit of kata. What kata has to teach is between the lines of the 'stops'.
Dave Copeland
Portland, OregonI disagree, Kata bunkai is actually a combination of both the movements and the in between the movememnts. Not to mention some of the movements done backwards.....and the in between the movements done backwards.

[ppko]

1) No but you have stated your belief in them, condone there teaching, and your teacher, George Dillman seems to put a lot of stock in there worth.

2) Kiai jitsu.........Just as bogus as the no touch KO's

Anytime you guys think No touch Kos and Kiai jitsu, (the word is jutsu BTW) will work under controlled circumstances, meaning not your students being ukes among other things, then I will consider looking into them. Until such time I doubt they work. The mpeg of the "Master" in Chicago that is Dillman student speaks volumes. He could only make it work on his students, he couldn't make it work on anyone that wasn't his student........including a tiny little female news reporter!!! Having said that the fat slob almost fell when trying to deliver a kick......that guy need to seriously get back to the basics of karate and WORK OUT and SWEAT instead of relying on some hocus-pocus crap.

3) Please do.......people will see your no touch KOs and Kiai jitsu and eventually find out how bogus it is then they will get tired of your chop-sockey garbageThe guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:

[Gary Crawford]

Another nice thing that Mr. Dillman has taught us is that as long as you find a sensible application to the kata than you are not wrong, in 1 move their may be as many as 50 different applications (if not more).

PPKO
Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.

[RRouuselot]

The guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:Is/was.......doesn't really matter since he and Dillman both seem to think No Touch KOs work. And as we can see from the MPEG they DON'T!:uhyeah: :bs:

Since you want to have "inteliigent converstation" maybe you could finally answer some of the questions I have asked you in the past regarding kyusho and atemi but chose to run away from.

[RRouuselot]

Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.

Im curious.......what did he say?

[Gary Crawford]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.

[bignick]

Sounds like something bruce lee would say, considering his philosophies...

[RRouuselot]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.
Interesting but I can't say as I agree with him......at least not 100% anyway.

[rmcrobertson]

In this context, it may be useful to recollect that Mr. Lee died young, in a fashion that may very well have been directly related to his training and practice.

[bignick]

true he was young

but he died from an allergic reaction to a prescription medication that wasn't his own...

[rmcrobertson]

...and his mastery of the martial arts was such that, it never occurred to him that taking a prescription written for somebody else may have been unwise.

First rule of self-defense: don't die.

[D.Cobb]

Bruce Lee told George Dillman "I don't need forms.George,you don't need forms.You'll be a good fighter-you're already trained.You needed forms,though,to train you"And he pointed around to some other people and said they would need forms as beginners-to give them the stances,the movements,the motions.the positioning,the strikes.the counters,the kicks.But once you reach a certain level.he though you could stop doing forms and maintain speed,balance and timing.He thought that timing,distance and speed were the total answer.

And of course he would know exactly what he was talking about...
He trained for what? 4 years in a traditional style that is trained more out of china than with in, and never even got to instructor level. And most of his training was done as a teenager. Most teenagers couldn't create an original thought unless it involved sex or beer, how is an undisciplined street thug going to develop the discipline required to formulate in depth quality theories regarding body mechanics and such like, in between picking fights, running from cops and getting it on with the fairer sex?

I like Bruce Lees movies. I love some of his combat ideas. I don't like the fact that he was full of himself, to the point that in one class, drilling sticky hands with a newbie, the newbie got a lucky one in on the Bruce. Master Lee wasted that sucker, right there in the kwoon.

I have got to tell you, this is not the kind of martial artist that I wish to become. So if it's all the same to you, I'll keep doing katas.
After all, that's where they hide the secrets!!

--Dave

[RRouuselot]

Granted Lee was an exceptional athlete in excellent shape. However, after seeing some home videos of Lee that were recently released I have to honestly say my opinion of his skill went way down. They were extremely different than what I saw in his movies where he could have many takes to get it right, good camera angles to make it look more impressive, use slower speed film to make it seem as if he was moving faster......I guess that is what they call "movie magic". There will always be people that say he was “the greatest”, I disagree. The more we find out about some of the “Heros” in martial arts the more we find out just how human they are/were with all the normal flaws the rest of us have.

[ppko]

Since you train under Mr. Dillman,ask him what Bruce Lee told him about kata's if you didn't read his interview in Black Belt.I certainly did read the article, and still have the magazine. I do not train directly under George but with one of his students I have been to many of his seminars and one of his camps hopefully I will be able to attend many more.

[RRouuselot]

The guy in Chicago is no longer with DKI has not been for some time, the only guy in chicago is Dusty Seale. But hey I am not here to argue, I am here to have intelligent conversations with intelligent people so this will be my last reply to you:whip:
I see.....so based on this statement are you are saying I am stupid.....alright ....Shall we have a nice intelligent discussion on kyusho and atemi how they differ......how about the differences between TCM and kyusho/atemi.....kata bunkai maybe?????....Chinese language and culture????.......Japanese language and culture????.....Okinawan??? Martial History???...Yeah, I guess only having an I.Q. of 164, training in the martial arts since before you were born makes me too stupid to discuss MAs with you........any time you want to "pony up" and discuss these let me know. I will be more than happy to.:lol:

[ppko]

I see.....so based on this statement are you are saying I am stupid.....alright ....Shall we have a nice intelligent discussion on kyusho and atemi how they differ......how about the differences between TCM and kyusho/atemi.....kata bunkai maybe?????....Chinese language and culture????.......Japanese language and culture????.....Okinawan??? Martial History???...Yeah, I guess only having an I.Q. of 164, training in the martial arts since before you were born makes me too stupid to discuss MAs with you........any time you want to "pony up" and discuss these let me know. I will be more than happy to.:lol:I am quite sure that you are intelligent, but the simple fact that you have to result in attacks with all of your posts to me shows a lack of immaturity any time you would like to discuss different things I am willing but I will not respond to personal attacks.

[rmcrobertson]

Perhaps posting one's IQ and number of years in the dojo, rather than discussing the issue, is not necessarily the best sign of either intelligence or achievement in the martial arts, however exasperatingly dopey we consider the other guy's argument to be.

[RRouuselot]

Perhaps posting one's IQ and number of years in the dojo, rather than discussing the issue, is not necessarily the best sign of either intelligence or achievement in the martial arts, however exasperatingly dopey we consider the other guy's argument to be.

True.
However, I find wannabees that post copious amounts of garbarge on these boards to be rather annoying after a while.

[RRouuselot]

I am quite sure that you are intelligent, but the simple fact that you have to result in attacks with all of your posts to me shows a lack of immaturity any time you would like to discuss different things I am willing but I will not respond to personal attacks.

I respond to your posts in the manner that I do because you blather on about things you knowing little or nothing about (TCM, Kyusho, Atemi, the shenanigans of your own teacher over the last 20 years), then when I correct you on it you insult me, "challenge" me over the internet and refer to me as not being intelligent. You say you are here to discuss things like TCM, Kyusho, & Atemi...from what I have seen thus far you are not really here (and about 3 or 4 other BBs) to learn so much as plug Dillman's books and tapes and make yourself out to be some sort "expert" or at the least act like you know what you are talking about.
You say you want intelligent discussion on kyusho and atemi......fine, go to an accredited TCM school, graduate, then come back and we can have an intelligent discussion.....until then.......well I guess thing won't change much.



Now that you have totally derailed this thread with your temper tantrum I think it is time to get back on track and the topic of this thread….

[ppko]

I respond to your posts in the manner that I do because you blather on about things you knowing little or nothing about (TCM, Kyusho, Atemi, the shenanigans of your own teacher over the last 20 years), then when I correct you on it you insult me, "challenge" me over the internet and refer to me as not being intelligent. You say you are here to discuss things like TCM, Kyusho, & Atemi...from what I have seen thus far you are not really here (and about 3 or 4 other BBs) to learn so much as plug Dillman's books and tapes and make yourself out to be some sort "expert" or at the least act like you know what you are talking about.
You say you want intelligent discussion on kyusho and atemi......fine, go to an accredited TCM school, graduate, then come back and we can have an intelligent discussion.....until then.......well I guess thing won't change much.



Now that you have totally derailed this thread with your temper tantrum I think it is time to get back on track and the topic of this thread….Yeah I derailed it, when have I ever said that I am an expert on TCM, or atemi, or for that matter Kyusho. I just came here wanting to talk some basics about kyusho. Well anyway come and talk to me when you want to talk like an adult

[RRouuselot]

Yeah I derailed it, when have I ever said that I am an expert on TCM, or atemi, or for that matter Kyusho. I just came here wanting to talk some basics about kyusho. Well anyway come and talk to me when you want to talk like an adult
Ya know I tried that on several occasions here, and on at least 2 other BBs and you have yet to answer a single serious question I have put forth to you on the subject of Kyusho, Atemi, or TCM. In fact after I ask you a serious question you do one of two things........you either stay away from the thread for a while or insult me with your childish name calling.
You certainly do like to bring up kyusho on a lot of boards.....in fact almost every board I have seen you post on you bring up the exact same topics. You don' actually say "Im an expert" but you certainly don't let on that you don't know jack either.

[D.Cobb]

I am quite sure that you are intelligent, but the simple fact that you have to result in attacks with all of your posts to me shows a lack of immaturity any time you would like to discuss different things I am willing but I will not respond to personal attacks.

See Robert, I told you you are getting old :D
Even PPKO can see that you show a lack of immaturity.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[RRouuselot]

See Robert, I told you you are getting old :D
Even PPKO can see that you show a lack of immaturity.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

--Dave

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I know I am not "intelligent" and all but doesn't "a lack of immaturity" mean the same thing as being mature???:roflmao:

[Michael Bland]

doesn't "a lack of immaturity" mean the same thing as being mature??? Yep - pretty sure that it does. *smile* I laughed at that, too.

So... my first post on this forum... just wanted to say that I had a similar experience as drag'n when I first met Robert 4 years ago... although I think I probably got a lot more beat up as my skill level was much lower despite several years of training in traditional martial arts. After that I trained with him for just over 3 years in Japan and I still practice the same style and will likely continue to do so for as long as I am able.

I never knew your IQ was that high, Robert, but perhaps that explains why you can always remember things years later - seriously a wicked memory.

And I also had the chance to meet and spar with drag'n this weekend while training with Robert while on business in Tokyo. He seemed like a quality guy to me. drag'n - I hope you continue to train with Robert and Sean as Sean surely can use another training partner!

OK... off to bed - then to jump back on a plane to the states...

[RRouuselot]

I never knew your IQ was that high, Robert, but perhaps that explains why you can always remember things years later - seriously a wicked memory.
........

It comes from having my head pounded during bogu....:)
(seriously, I was tested on 3 different occasions... even by a club called MENSA....didn't join...looked like a dork convention)

[blackbeltedbeauty]

I personally like kata for 2 reasons. 1) I think it puts the "art" in martial art and 2) I'm good at them. Lol go figure as to why I like them. Anyway, I think katas are beautiful, full of grace, and an expression of the nature of the art. They also help one get technique down by doing it slow and practicing kata helps your sparring abilities.

[Twin Fist]

what I love about kata is the same thing that I hate about kata. I can never perfect it. No one can.

I can never say "well, i got that kata down pat" because i can always improve it.

Plus, for me, and this is just my opinion, but for me, kata is the art in "martial art"

without kata, you are just learning moves

[punisher73]

I have commented on this topic before, so I got lazy today and just copied a previous reply. :-)



Quote:
Hello, If Kata's are proven ways to fight? How come UFC,mix martial artist do not practice Kata'. What about the BJJ? Do you see them do kata's?

Boxers,wrestlers, do see them do Kata's?
They do. You have a very limited understanding of what a kata is. Take boxing for example. You learn a combo of 2-3 punches and some body movement/evasion for defense. You know for a FACT that your opponent is in front of you and you only have one person. More than 2-3 punches and things are more unpredictable. When you are shadowboxing you are stringing a bunch of segments together that are a kata. There is no such thing in shadowboxing as spontaneous or not prearranged unless you are just throwing things out there with no thought to their effect. Each 2-3 move segment is prearranged, but the order you are throwing them in may be unplanned.

Now look at a kata, you have an opponent that attacks and you respond to the attack with 2-3 moves. THEN in a kata you are also dealing with groupings of techniques that are similiar in concept so you practice another attack coming in from a different direction using another grouping of technques similiar to the first since in real life you DO NOT know where the attack will be coming from. Kata is NOT meant to be done start to finish it is small groupings of "drills" that are linked together to show an overall concept or strategy. The combos in kata are meant to be taken out and practiced as drills against an opponent.

Now back to boxing, lets say you had to teach someone how to defend against a wild haymaker. You would probably show them a response that works well most of the time for you. Now you have to teach them how to defend against that same attack coming from the side. How do you teach them to address that? Now the same attack from the other side. Now to help you remember that they shadowbox those responses with the turns to address those attackers. VOILA you now have created a kata built upon drills just like traditional katas.


It must also be pointed out that someone will say that "a kata is a set of prearranged techniques THAT CAN'T BE DEVIATED FROM". If you understand Okinawan kata, it was modified student to student by the instructor many times based on their body type etc. It wasn't until karate moved to Japan that you had extremely large classes and things standardized to conform. That is NOT the original way that kata was learned and applied. It also implies that the kata is a set of movements that mimic a COMPLETE FIGHT and that you would go start to finish with the moves. Again, this is misunderstanding of what kata is for.

Also, in response to the argument that 2-3 moves is NOT a kata needs to look at the kata of Judo for it's self-defense and kendo. Those comprise mainly of 2-3 moves for each kata. The definition of "kata" is much broader than how many people interpret it to fit into their own idea.