First Aid/CPR

[Rob Broad]

I was talking to a buddy the other day and he says atleast one student in every school should have First Aid & CPR training. I agreed to a point. I say every person who steps on the floor in an instructor or assistant instructor role should have this training. What do you think?

[Martial Tucker]

I was talking to a buddy the other day and he says atleast one student in every school should have First Aid & CPR training. I agreed to a point. I say every person who steps on the floor in an instructor or assistant instructor role should have this training. What do you think?I totally agree. I have both, and I wish more people would get training. Aside from the dojang, it's a very good feeling to know that you have the ability to help out if you happen upon an emergency situation. This has happened to me numerous times over the years.
Our school Master is a doctor by day, so that makes it a non-issue when he is in the house. The one thing that I am not qualified to do, that I would like to be able to do is an emergency "trache" procedure if someone suffers a significant throat trauma that affect their ability to breathe. This is certainly a possible scenario in a dojang....I have read about how to do it with any handy sharp-pointed object, but that doesnt make me comfortable or proficient by any means.

[MA-Caver]

Totally agree here. At least one or two instructors (or even students) should have certified First-aid/First Responder/ CPR training at all times during school hours. Injuries can and have occurred in many a dojo, this we all know. Having a trained first-aider/responder there at the scene will help out a lot and make a good initial assessment on whether or not to call 911 or just take the injured to the hospital themselves, i.e. a broken arm/limb/nose can be transported by private car.
Inviting a certified first-aid/CPR instructor for the err, instructors at least once a year is a good idea. Because c'est la vie said the old folks, goes to show you never can tell.

:asian:

[Kenpo Mama]

Inviting a certified first-aid/CPR instructor for the err, instructors at least once a year is a good idea. Because c'est la vie said the old folks, goes to show you never can tell.

:asian:


Oh absolutely, i am required by some of the studios i teach in to have at least the CPR requirement. Next year i'll go for the first aid portion as well. I think it is a great idea to have a certified instructor into the school to renew certifications. Ya' never know!

Donna :asian:

[Ceicei]

I think all instructors should know and be certified in first aid/CPR. Injuries can happen when doing martial arts and it would be good to be able to assess injury severity and know what needs to be done. If its a large school, it is not a bad idea for other dojo staff to have first aid/CPR training too. Once certified, it is ideal to have refresher/recertification on a yearly basis.

Knowing that the instructors are trained will help reassure parents of students and adult students.

Sometimes business/school insurance do allow discounts if people running the business/school are trained.

- Ceicei

[Tgace]

I think that whoever trains in methods to injure should also be trained in methods to heal/provide aid.

[Rob Broad]

I used to have First Aid and Cpr as requirements for 3rd degree brown belt. I would bring in a teacher and he would do a weekend class for anyone needing certification or re-certification.

[Matt Stone]

I'm AHA certified for Basic Life Support for healthcare providers, AED certified, just finished AHA BLS-Instructor certification Friday (so I can teach and certify BLS and all levels below it, e.g. Heartsavers, CPR for Friends and Family, etc.), and I am a nationally certified EMT-B.

Additionally, our school/style requires "traditional" healing methods be learned by "black belt" (we call them "seniors") level... Massage, acupuncture/acupressure, qigong, Chinese herbology, etc.

Our folks are usually in pretty good hands. The fact that many of our students also possess advanced medical training of one kind or another is good, too...

[Mark Weiser]

I have this covered I am a LPN in Kansas and the Instructor at my school.

[Flatlander]

A recent thread discussing this from General Self Defence:

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15707

Only real contribution I could make here.

[MA-Caver]

I think all instructors should know and be certified in first aid/CPR. Injuries can happen when doing martial arts and it would be good to be able to assess injury severity and know what needs to be done. If its a large school, it is not a bad idea for other dojo staff to have first aid/CPR training too. Once certified, it is ideal to have refresher/recertification on a yearly basis.

Knowing that the instructors are trained will help reassure parents of students and adult students.

Sometimes business/school insurance do allow discounts if people running the business/school are trained.

- Ceicei

Right, but it also I think beneficial that the students have first-aid/CPR training as well. One year in Washington D.C. I got caught out on the streets late at night past the time the public transport runs. I had to hoof it back 20 blocks to my college where I was attending at the time.
I was accousted by someone (this is the NW section of the city, btw) and was placed in a SD position. Fortunately my attacker was drunk and more fortunate he was alone. I incapacitated him with a simple palm sword slice across his adams apple. Turns out that I went either too deep or too hard and he was lying there struggling to breathe.
Well, crap could I just leave him there and possibly die. Under other circumstances I probably would've. But that night he was lucky. I managed to do CPR on him (NOT very pleasant when the victim is drunk and hadn't bathed or brushed his teeth in god knows HOW long :barf: ) until a cruiser passed by, whipped around and pulled over. Seeing them I explained I "happened across this guy and he didn't seem to be breathing. They took over emergency medical treatment and in the hubbub of the ambulance and growing curiosity seekers in the neighborhood I managed to slip away.
I did that because I didn't want to be questioned as to HOW he got that way in the first place.
Any way the guy could've died had I not done what my training had taught me.
We are trained to defend ourselves but it makes good sense to be able to have the training to umm, correct our mis-calculations shall we call it?
Also another (this time hypothetical) scenario is that you are defending your loved one and/or friends and one of them gets hurt seriously enough to warrant immeidate first-aid treatment. Well you're there aren't you?
Even if not in a SD situation... hey it's good to know first-aid and CPR right?

[Stick Dummy]

FWIW - Traches are bad news, a surgical proceedure, contrary to popular belief. It is far better and safer to inubate either orally or nasally that start cutting in a high risk area surrounded by major blood vessels.

MAcaver - CPR on a person with a blocked airway via throat trauma - again chest compressions on a still beating heart?????? SCARY THOUGHT

This ain't no disco, this ain't no playing around, you're dealing with another life and you better know what the #$%^ you are doing.

Get the CPR training, use the CPR training, and re-certify at least annually.

[Matt Stone]

Was MACaver doing CPR or rescue breathing?

If there is severe throat trauma that would preclude the patient from breathing, I'm not sure what help rescue breathing would provide... Rapid 911 assistance and a paramedic to run the tracheotomy would likely be his best chance for survival...

MACaver, CPR is the chest compression part... You NEVER want to do chest compressions when the patient's heart is still beating (you'll cause it to stop, and then you're in a real mess...).

Folks too often say one thing and mean another. They need to pay more attention and use the right terms, right phrases, and right descriptions instead of just assuming folks know what they mean...

[mj-hi-yah]

First let me say that I have always and will always help people in need, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here for a minute...there are so many liability issues these days and people bring lawsuits for all kinds of crazy things. I've heard that people with CPR training can be held accountable for an unfavorable outcome after they administer CPR. As teachers in someone else's school what kink of responsibility should we have and how do we find out if we are covered if a student in a class that we teach becomes injured and decides to name us in a suit?

[Taimishu]

"MACaver, CPR is the chest compression part... You NEVER want to do chest compressions when the patient's heart is still beating (you'll cause it to stop, and then you're in a real mess...)."

The "C" in cpr is the chest compression the"P" is the pulmonary (rescue breathing) element.
In the UK there are degrees of first aid from appointed person to first aid at work/HSE.
All require testing/retraining at regular intervals, usually every 3 years.
This can be a very complex issue and here all qualified instructors are required to have at least basic first aid training.

David

[Kenpo Mama]

MJ - good question, since i recently renewed my CPR certification with Red Cross and having the booklet handy i can tell you that the first few items in the booklet are about protecting yourself - basically Good Samaritan Laws in the US which were enacted to give legal protection to people who willingly provide emergency care to ill or injured persons without accepting anything in return. There is much more info in the booklet and the laws vary state to state. You must always obtain consent from the victim or if the victim is unconscious consent is implied.

If something goes very wrong due to carelessness on the part of the instructor and you are an unpaid teacher or teaching as a requirement for advancement, then i would check to see with your instructor if you are covered under his liability insurance. Personally i carry my own insurance because i teach other classes as well. It is not that expensive. I will PM you with further information on this as well as info on liability as an instuctor. Hope this helps.

Donna :asian:

[Spud]

First let me say that I have always and will always help people in need, so I'm just playing devil's advocate here for a minute...there are so many liability issues these days and people bring lawsuits for all kinds of crazy things. I've heard that people with CPR training can be held accountable for an unfavorable outcome after they administer CPR. As teachers in someone else's school what kink of responsibility should we have and how do we find out if we are covered if a student in a class that we teach becomes injured and decides to name us in a suit? Good samaritan laws protect us from that nonsense. Arguably, if you are performing CPR, the dude is dead.

When people make the big leap from doing CPR to attempting to defibulate with a car battery or a tracheaotomy with a corkscrew is when you find yourself outside good samaritan protection.

Donna - I'll go out on a limb and say good samaritan laws also cover instructors just as they cover designated first aid providers for an office or construction site. In the 3 states I'm familiar with the laws also cover Paramedics, firefighters, nurses and doctors - although certain medical providers are also governed by other laws as well. The question of providing care to the level of training and resources at hand comes into play for the designated EMS and medical providers and depends upon the situation.

[Tgace]

Just completed my OC spray instructor cert. course today, I think I need some first-aid... IT BURNS!!! IT BURNS!!!

To stay on topic...things like the effects of weapons, sprays etc. on the body and how to deal with them should be a must have if you want to be "well rounded".

[mj-hi-yah]

Just completed my OC spray instructor cert. course today, I think I need some first-aid... IT BURNS!!! IT BURNS!!!

To stay on topic...things like the effects of weapons, sprays etc. on the body and how to deal with them should be a must have if you want to be "well rounded".Thanks Spud and Donna I think I'll be a Good Samaritan now and give Tgace a hand since he won't be able to take me to court afterwards! :cheers: No hose smileys all I got is some beer to throw your way! :)

[Spud]

Add basic blood born pathogens to what Tgace just said.

[Spud]

One more thing; if I was instructing I would carry a personal liability umbrella policy. Arguably your first aid is covered by good Samaritan laws, but as an instructor trainee you should have made sure all students had their head gear fitted by Swiss Neurosurgeons and inspected weekly by ultrasound technicians from the National Institute of Standards.



Just a thought.

[Tgace]

Thanks Spud and Donna I think I'll be a Good Samaritan now and give Tgace a hand since he won't be able to take me to court afterwards! :cheers: No hose smileys all I got is some beer to throw your way! :)
Beer could help kill the pain...one way or another...:cheers:

[dubljay]

I use to be certified in CPR and in First Aid, but I havent had the time to renew my certification. Never the less I still carry a basic first aid kit in my gear, and on more than one occasion I have had to tape up some one for a sprained ankel or wrist. While I do carry pain releivers in my kit, aspirin ibuprofen, acetamiophen (tylenol), due to a liability issue I never give them to anyone unless they specifically ask for it and are clear, concious and can answer questions about meds they take to avoid bad interactions; this is not to say that I know how all drugs react.. but I use the questions as a way for the person to recall if there are any possible bad interactions with common pain releivers.



I believe it is important for there to always be someone who is certified in cpr and first aid at a MA school. When people ask me what they should look for in a school one of the things I often suggest is to ask if the istructor(s) are first aid certified.

[Goldendragon7]

The following taken from another post by "Seig" aka Hitman...

For those of you that do not know StickDummy aka Pete Reiff, I would like to introduce you to this man and tell you about what he did tonight.
I met Pete just after 911 as I was undergoing entry training for my job. Part of the training/certification process we have to go through is CPR, First Aid, and PDT. The instructor was Pete Reiff. During a break he told me about a class he was excited about going to when we were finished, a knife fighting class. That remark started what is now a very close friendship between the Seigels and the Reiffs. Every year, I have to be recertified, and every year, Pete is the instructor.

A little over a year ago, Pete was involved in an auto accident where a dump truck lost control and hit 9 cars, Pete being one of the victims. Despite his own injuries, he began triage and administering aid until paramedics could arrive. No matter the circumstance, Pete stays professional.

A recent class finished up about 9:30 pm. After class, we usually congregate on my front porch for about 15 minutes before everyone goes home and I leave for work. Tonight, Pete saved another life.

Tess and I live directly across from a fire hall. As we walked up to the porch, a woman stopped at the entrance to the fire hall and started screaming, "My Baby! My Baby isn't breathing!" Seeing no response from the fire hall, Pete looked at me and said, "Let's move." We ran to the car where Pete immediately took command of the scene.

The "Baby" was a 230+ pound afro-amercian approximately 40 years old. Pete checked the man and found he was in fact not breathing. Pete told me to help him remove the man from the vehicle and lay him on the ground. This was harder than it sounded as the man was only wearing a pair of jogging shorts. Once we had the man laid out on the ground, I asked him what he wanted me to do. He told me to go to the fire hall, make sure help was on the way and then get back to him.

Pete checked the man and found he still had a pulse, as he was re-establishing the man's air way, he kept talking to the man, "Stay with me." At this point, all I could do was wait for Pete to give me another order; I expected to be required to do chest compressions at any second. Fortunately, that was not required. The man had a pulse, although he quit breathing twice. After what was probably three or four minutes, but felt like an hour, the fire-fighter showed up.

I will not comment on the firefighter other than to say he was unprofessional and out of his league. As the firefighter began to unload his jump kit, he got out his oxygen bottle and a rebreather mask. He tried to put the rebreather on, without prepping it first, Pete took the mask and prepped it and then put it on the victim as the firefighter was figuring out how to hook it up to the oxygen. While he was doing this, Pete was also questioning the victim's female companion about what happened and if the victim had taken anything.

It turns out he had been taking an asthma medication, apparently the attack was so severe that his companion was taking him to the hospital as he was hitting his medication. It would appear he took too much and entered respiratory arrest.

The firefighter continued his unprofessional behavior, which really stood out against Pete's total professionalism. Shortly thereafter, the Paramedic Squad arrived and began hooking the victim up to an ECG, his pulse was highly erratic, plunging from 62 bpm down to 16 and then back up. The Captain of the local company also responded, hooking the victim up to an IV. After they intabated him, we were able to put him on to a back board and load him onto a stretcher. He was then loaded into an ambulance.

If it had not been for Pete's quick thinking, professional demeanor, and superior skills, this man would not have survived until the ambulance arrived. Pete, I want to say :asian:!
Michael

Now if that isn't a good enough reason to take and renew your CPR credentials....... I don't know what is.:idunno:

Great work guys!!
:asian:

[Matt Stone]

The "C" in cpr is the chest compression the"P" is the pulmonary (rescue breathing) element.

Not really... Cardio Pulmonary Resusitation is what the acronym stands for. CPR is a combination of rescue breathing (administerting ventilation by way of artificial respiration) and chest compressions, however both are not required at all times...

If the patient has a pulse but is not breathing, you do rescue breathing but not chest compressions.

If the patient has no pulse and is breathing, you do chest compressions but not rescue breaths (though rescue breathing or bag-valve mask ventilation may be indicated to return their respirations to normal, this is beyond most first responder's skills and training).

If there is no pulse and no breathing, knock yourself out...

As far as the Good Samaritan laws go, they are in place for exactly the kind of situations that MACaver ran into... When someone with little or no training makes an error, though well meaning, and ends up injuring the patient further or, God forbid, contributing to their death.

[jukado1]

As martial arts instructors, our goal is to help our students have a better and safer life, at the very least. Part of that training should include methods of having a safer life, and how to make sure your protected in many situations, not just physical combat. One of the first things I teach is to always wear a seat belt, as more people are injured and killed in auto crashes in one week then are injured or killed in self-defense or fighting situations in a year, THAT is realistic self-defense. Everybody that we teach has friends and relatives. There is always the chance that one of these people will need CPR or first aid.
In my opinion, CPR and First Aid training, should be mandatory for brown belt.

[Martial Tucker]

Not really... Cardio Pulmonary Resusitation is what the acronym stands for. CPR is a combination of rescue breathing (administerting ventilation by way of artificial respiration) and chest compressions, however both are not required at all times...

If the patient has a pulse but is not breathing, you do rescue breathing but not chest compressions.

If the patient has no pulse and is breathing, you do chest compressions but not rescue breaths (though rescue breathing or bag-valve mask ventilation may be indicated to return their respirations to normal, this is beyond most first responder's skills and training).

If there is no pulse and no breathing, knock yourself out...

As far as the Good Samaritan laws go, they are in place for exactly the kind of situations that MACaver ran into... When someone with little or no training makes an error, though well meaning, and ends up injuring the patient further or, God forbid, contributing to their death.I'm certainly no EMT, but I've been CPR and Red Cross 1st Aid trained for several years, and have been involved in more than my share of emergencies.
I must say I've never seen a situation where a patient had no pulse, but was still breathing.

[MA-Caver]

Was MACaver doing CPR or rescue breathing?

If there is severe throat trauma that would preclude the patient from breathing, I'm not sure what help rescue breathing would provide... Rapid 911 assistance and a paramedic to run the tracheotomy would likely be his best chance for survival...

MACaver, CPR is the chest compression part... You NEVER want to do chest compressions when the patient's heart is still beating (you'll cause it to stop, and then you're in a real mess...).

Folks too often say one thing and mean another. They need to pay more attention and use the right terms, right phrases, and right descriptions instead of just assuming folks know what they mean...

Ya you're right... I wasn't doing chest compressions but the guy's face was built so that I was able to breathe into his nostrils (after trying the mouth after seeing that it didn't work... little or no chest rise) and try to get air in that way. I was a bit panicky because, like I said it went further than I intended. My MA training was not where it is now and thus the mishap, but the guy was attacking me..took a couple of swings that made me realize that he was too drunk/billigerent to listen...)
I was only doing the breathing for a few minutes before the cruiser showed up. I don't know the severity of the injury I caused. Only that the guy stopped breathing. This may have been attributed to blunt force trauma complicated by alcohol inebriation.
Ya I realize I had this guys life in my hands...considering that I was the one that put him in that situation to begin with and I was the only one around. I could've just walked off with a casual F.U. behind my shoulder. But I didn't.
It was truly a fubar-ed situation. I was also worried about something else coming out of the wood work since I was the minority in that neighborhood of DC. This happened something like twenty years ago and I was still in the first few years of being out on my own for the first time. So I'll plead "young and stupid your honor!"
My first aid training then was minimal at best. ....Hmm, why am I explaining this?? Oh yeah! Clairification. Anyway, I thunk long and hard after that incident and scanned the papers for a week afterwards on anything mentioning the incident (via police reports printed in the Post). Nothing, nada. A load off my mind. A severe lesson to learn to get better control and training before trying that crap again.... I did and it has since paid off. But at least (hindsight being the greatest prophet) was trying to do something.
:asian:

[Ceicei]

I must say I've never seen a situation where a patient had no pulse, but was still breathing.

However rare, that does happen. Gotta be there at the right moment to jump-start a heart. Within a minute without oxygen circulation from the pumping heart, the lungs will stop functioning. Fortunately, as you mentioned, circumstances when people lost their pulse but still remain breathing for a few seconds very seldom happens.

- Ceicei

[tshadowchaser]

I think that whoever trains in methods to injure should also be trained in methods to heal/provide aid.
I agree.
If you have a school with a good number of people in it maybe you should consider contacting the Red Cross or any other organisation that teaches these things and have them come to your place and teach the course. It will give everyone who attends a chance to learn and if something should happen in class you have at least tried to provide the knowledg needed to help. Your students can also carry this knowledge into their personal world and be better preparied to help their familys and friends in a time of need.

[LadyDragon]

If some of the students have the CPR/First Aid training, thats a plus. but I also agree that the instructors should be train and certified in CPR/First Aid. Its to every ones benefit to have more than one person with the knowledge of how to save/heel some one. You never know when the instructor may be the one who needs the help, then what happens if they're the only one with the first aid training. Its just better to have a few people train. As always, there's safety in numbers.