Plateaus

[Rob Broad]

We reach plateaus in our training, how do you reach beyond the plateaus and start climbing to unkown areas in your training.

[Kenpo Mama]

A friend e-mailed me a great article about plateaus, i'm not sure about the original source but i found some comfort in it. I offer it up to y'all.

"PLATEAUS:Now, the
discussion of plateaus. This is a constant
problem in any creative
endeavor, and I believe martial arts, or even
martial science, as we
sometimes call what we do, is a creative
endeavor.Understand, all
of us have plateaus. They can be tough. They can
seem like insurmountable
obstacles. You can start to judge your worth by
others around you. Always
a mistake. Stay focused on the knowledge you're
trying to gain, not on
others. If you can do that, you'll be amazed at
how fast you will
move.Beat the Plateau Syndrome. Don't fall into
any of the
aforementioned categories. Plateau Syndrome is
often a feeling you get
right before a major break through, a shift in
gears, a new understanding.
You quit while on a plateau, there's no telling
what you might have found
on the other side. And once you hit the other
side, you're cruising again,
taking in new ideas, and understanding old
techniques with greater depth.
The plateau will appear again, but if you go
through it once, you can go
through it again. Eventually you reach a level,
as long as you train, you
will not fall below. But there is still much more
to learn. And more
plateaus.If you feel burned out, take a day off,
a week. Fine. But
not several weeks. Stay on task. When you take
the pressure off for a day
or two, it can help. You take it off for several
days, a few weeks, you're
Just looking for an excuse to quit. You forget
the rush of saratonin you
get from exercise, the psychological boost from
performing a well executed
technique.In fact, often the problems you think
are causing you to
quit are the sort of thing martial practice helps
you get through. Outside
events can effect your training, and frankly if
you're in a bad mood or
want to come to the school and pout, stay
home.But the flip side
of the coin, at least for me, is when I walk
through the dojo door, all
other considerations are dropped. When I
practice, there isn't a yesterday
or a tomorrow, just now. It is one of those
things where you can truly
live within the moment. As long as you're focused
on the training, or
teaching.These plateaus pass. And the more you
learn that, the
easier it is to deal with them when they crop up.
Because crop up they
do.Stay with it. Talk to your instructor if you
think you've hit
one of these plateaus. Any of the instructors
here. We've all been there,
and may even be on a plateau ourselves at that
moment. A talk alone may
break the dam and get the water flowing
again"

Donna :asian:

[Ceicei]

Well said, Donna!!!

- Ceicei

[Kenpo Mama]

Well said, Donna!!!

- Ceicei


More like well cut and paste Ceicei, I wish they were my words, i'm just passing them on. Great stuff and so very true.

Donna :asian:

[MJS]

I agree with the post by Kenpo Mama. Definately taking a short break will give your body as well as your mind a rest. The same can be said for lifting weights in the gym. Your body will eventually need to be pushed harder if you want to see any gains. By taking a few days off or by slightly increasing the weight resistance, you will notice a huge difference.

Mike

[Kenpo Mama]

This article has helped me through some difficult times in my training. Always right on the verge of a breakthrough or a new understanding. My journey has taken me through plateaus, mountains and deep, dark valleys, but i feel my joy truly remains in the journey itself. I have come to accept plateaus as a necessary part of my growth in my martial arts training. They lead me to the truth - that my internal focus, hard work and determination will take me to a higher level. I am pleased to be able to share this ride with you all.

Kenpo Mama :asian:

[Rob Broad]

I am a very goal oriented teacher. I have students write down their goals and then put a realistic date on it. I then find it is my job to help them achieve that goal. If they even up at a plateau I usually try to find a different route for them to try or a few days, usually that training is designed to make getting over that hump a lot easier when they come back to it.

[pesilat]

We reach plateaus in our training, how do you reach beyond the plateaus and start climbing to unkown areas in your training.

Read this article: http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan/newsletter/volume2/issue1cover.htm

It's by one of my instructors and provides a lot of insightful information about this topic.

Mike

[terryl965]

Read this article: http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan/newsletter/volume2/issue1cover.htm

It's by one of my instructors and provides a lot of insightful information about this topic.

Mike Very cool article.. GOD BLESS AMERICA

[mj-hi-yah]

I am a very goal oriented teacher. I have students write down their goals and then put a realistic date on it. I then find it is my job to help them achieve that goal. If they even up at a plateau I usually try to find a different route for them to try or a few days, usually that training is designed to make getting over that hump a lot easier when they come back to it.Rob I like that a lot it is a very proactive way to help students visualize and plan for their success.



Read this article: http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchu...issue1cover.htm (http://www.joerlansdale.com/shenchuan/newsletter/volume2/issue1cover.htm)

It's by one of my instructors and provides a lot of insightful information about this topic.

Mike Interesting article! I've seen all these types of students in our school. I think instructors can help to keep interest like what Rob does with goal setting, but some people are just not cut out for it.


To anyone here... if a student drops out after a day, a week, a month, a year or many more...do you consider it to be a failure on their part or yours? If it's really about life's journey and someone learns something valuable to them in an hour even, I don't think it's a waste...

[pesilat]

To anyone here... if a student drops out after a day, a week, a month, a year or many more...do you consider it to be a failure on their part or yours? If it's really about life's journey and someone learns something valuable to them in an hour even, I don't think it's a waste...

Unless I was having an off day or something, I don't ever feel that it was my fault. I just figure that what I do wasn't up their alley. Nothing wrong with that. My path isn't for everyone. The way I train isn't for everyone. If someone feels that it's not for them, then I bid them farewell and hope they find the path they're looking for - even if it's another instructor, system, martial art, or outside the martial arts.

Mike

[Rob Broad]

To anyone here... if a student drops out after a day, a week, a month, a year or many more...do you consider it to be a failure on their part or yours? If it's really about life's journey and someone learns something valuable to them in an hour even, I don't think it's a waste...

Unless it is my fault that they left then I don't see it as a failing. They may realize that what I have to offer is not what they were looking for. Or maybe they found what they were looking for and then decided it was time to move on to something else.

[mj-hi-yah]

Unless I was having an off day or something, I don't ever feel that it was my fault. I just figure that what I do wasn't up their alley. Nothing wrong with that. My path isn't for everyone. The way I train isn't for everyone. If someone feels that it's not for them, then I bid them farewell and hope they find the path they're looking for - even if it's another instructor, system, martial art, or outside the martial arts.

Mike
Unless it is my fault that they left then I don't see it as a failing. They may realize that what I have to offer is not what they were looking for. Or maybe they found what they were looking for and then decided it was time to move on to something else.I think it's a very mature instructor who can admit that they may have done something to contribute to a person's failure to continue. Everyone is capable of making mistakes. If you don't mind sharing, what types of things do you think you've ever done, or seen another instructor do, to turn someone off whether they were at a plateau or not?

MJ :)

[Rob Broad]

I have had students that liked to bully other students when they think I wasn't paying attention. I usually treat them as they have treated others. Then I tell them that if they want to pick on people I will do the same to them. It may sound petty but I don't like bullies, and think that bullies need a little of the treatment they give out handed back to them.

[pesilat]

I think it's a very mature instructor who can admit that they may have done something to contribute to a person's failure to continue. Everyone is capable of making mistakes. If you don't mind sharing, what types of things do you think you've ever done, or seen another instructor do, to turn someone off whether they were at a plateau or not?

MJ :)

Well, I recently had a visitor watching a class. He seemed to like everything until I did a technique where I entered hard, disrupted my opponent's balance, then took him down with a hard slap to the chest. This caused the opponent to land hard on his back. The visitor was visibly put off by this and said he has a bad back - a couple of vertebrae surgically fused. I explained that we can always tone things down a little bit in training but I could tell that it didn't really mollify him. He said he'd be back but that was over a month ago and we haven't seen him again.

I wouldn't say that it was something I did wrong - just that my standard training mode wasn't really what he was looking for.

Mike

[mj-hi-yah]

I have had students that liked to bully other students when they think I wasn't paying attention. I usually treat them as they have treated others. Then I tell them that if they want to pick on people I will do the same to them. It may sound petty but I don't like bullies, and think that bullies need a little of the treatment they give out handed back to them. I understand how it makes you feel and don't like bullies at all myself. Sometimes I think a good way to treat a bully is by showing them how to treat others by example. This may not change their behavior in the short run though, and as the head instructor you do have a responsibility to deal with it as it occurs, and you have to do what works for you.

MJ :asian:

[mj-hi-yah]

Well, I recently had a visitor watching a class. He seemed to like everything until I did a technique where I entered hard, disrupted my opponent's balance, then took him down with a hard slap to the chest. This caused the opponent to land hard on his back. The visitor was visibly put off by this and said he has a bad back - a couple of vertebrae surgically fused. I explained that we can always tone things down a little bit in training but I could tell that it didn't really mollify him. He said he'd be back but that was over a month ago and we haven't seen him again.

I wouldn't say that it was something I did wrong - just that my standard training mode wasn't really what he was looking for.

MikeI don't think that you should have done anything different. When a perspective student comes in, they get a snapshot in time. I don't think you should put on a show or do anything different. They will want to train or not.

MJ :asian:

[kenpo tiger]

Pesilat,

You said that you told the prospective student that, should he come to train with you, you would make it appropriate to his abilities (at least that's what I got from your post.) That he didn't feel comfortable is something else -- and not something for you to be concerned with, in my opinion. You said what your policy was; it was then up to him.

There is a similar thread in our area on the board which talks about 'going hard' with your training partners. The general consensus is that one should - especially women - since it is always best to train 'real'. Some people - not just women, btw, just have a difficult time hitting and getting hit.

Also, some people tend to be Pollyanna-ish about life in general: "Oh - that's never going to happen to ME" - and those are the people who need to be learning a martial art, in my opinion.

As to plateaus, which is, I think, what this thread is about: we all have them in our training. It is really up to each of us to determine how much time to take off, if taking time away is appropriate, and whether one needs to possibly switch to another art because the plateau seems to be there too often for too long and, therefore, the art one is doing isn't a good 'fit'. KT:asian:

[Rob Broad]

I usually try and point out what the person is doing is wrong, and if and when that doesn't work then I show them what it feels like.


I understand how it makes you feel and don't like bullies at all myself. Sometimes I think a good way to treat a bully is by showing them how to treat others by example. This may not change their behavior in the short run though, and as the head instructor you do have a responsibility to deal with it as it occurs, and you have to do what works for you.

MJ :asian:

[mj-hi-yah]

I usually try and point out what the person is doing is wrong, and if and when that doesn't work then I show them what it feels like.:whip: That'll work too...:)

[tshadowchaser]

I don’t set goals for my students. If they have any fine I hope I can help them obtain them. However some of those goals may be physical harm to someone else. If this is the case and I know it I try to let them know that by the time they obtain the level to do such harm, I hope they realize that violence is not always the way.
I do try to push the student to new limits of physical endurance. If they can do 20 push ups I have them do 30 and tell them if they miss one do the next. If they miss 2 do the 3rd. Just never give up. I think that having them learn to keep trying will carry over into other aspects of their lives.

[TigerWoman]

For me, I wish it was so simple as a problem as hitting a plateau. That can be worked out, for instance like doing more pushups at home to get the force necessary for a knife through concrete. Or running at three boards at an angle because you can't twist your knee completely around for the right angle of the hip. But after more than a year at this "plateau" of mine of not being able to do a jumpback kick-2/jump spin heel-1, it feels more like an immovable rock in the way. Besides other physical problems, at some point, the body does, I believe, have limits, especially for a nearly 55year old. Just ranting -- Sorry, the topic just got me going. But for most plateaus, it just takes a new angle of working at it, discovering what you lack to overcome the problem. Its a matter of just keeping at it.Thats part of the journey - discovering yourself. TW

[Rob Broad]

For me, I wish it was so simple as a problem as hitting a plateau. That can be worked out, for instance like doing more pushups at home to get the force necessary for a knife through concrete. Or running at three boards at an angle because you can't twist your knee completely around for the right angle of the hip. But after more than a year at this "plateau" of mine of not being able to do a jumpback kick-2/jump spin heel-1, it feels more like an immovable rock in the way. Besides other physical problems, at some point, the body does, I believe, have limits, especially for a nearly 55year old. Just ranting -- Sorry, the topic just got me going. But for most plateaus, it just takes a new angle of working at it, discovering what you lack to overcome the problem. Its a matter of just keeping at it.Thats part of the journey - discovering yourself. TW

Your problem isn't so much a plateau it is having a putz for an instructor who is trying to play god.

[Trent]

That was an excellent article from the Shen Chuan site. Thanks for sharing it.

The common thread I noticed in the article, and life in general, is that plateaus are typically a place where a decision must be made to continue, and the person is putting that decision off, attempting to maintain a holding pattern. In every instance where the "plateau effect" is observed it's due to the fact that the decision requires that the person learn something that is difficult to perform for whatever reason. They may be physically unable to perform the next level, which is fine. Most often, they simply don't wish to commit themselves to learning or performing the material because it's uncomfortable; in other words, it's not that they can't do it, but they won't do it. Therefore, the plateau has been reached. Now, the person can continue due perform at the level they are comfortable and stay at the same level, or plateau, or start doing the hard work and start climbing, slowly, but always climbing. Many of them know this at a subconscious level and can't accept staying in a holding pattern as what's the point? But the alternative, learning something that, for whatever reason, intimidates them to confront is unacceptable, so they quit.

As an instructor, I find it my job to show them that they can accomplish much more than they thought, and if I can do it, they can do it. The climb can be made, but it will require some adjustments.

However, people can only be assisted if they allow you to do so.

[TigerWoman]

As an instructor, I find it my job to show them that they can accomplish much more than they thought, and if I can do it, they can do it. The climb can be made, but it will require some adjustments.

However, people can only be assisted if they allow you to do so.

Not always the case, in my opinion. I have always thought that even though the next goal seems to be hard, I would work it to death at different angles, exercising more, practicing, tweeking this and that until it was overcome. I, have always been an overachiever though, doing more than needed. But that's the only way I know--work hard as you can until its done. But physical condition of the body, aging, does interfere with that. My instructor has that mentality too, if I can do it at 43 (him), you can do it. I'm stuck now and its not for the not trying. TW

[Trent]

Not always the case, in my opinion. I have always thought that even though the next goal seems to be hard, I would work it to death at different angles, exercising more, practicing, tweeking this and that until it was overcome. I, have always been an overachiever though, doing more than needed. But that's the only way I know--work hard as you can until its done. But physical condition of the body, aging, does interfere with that. My instructor has that mentality too, if I can do it at 43 (him), you can do it. I'm stuck now and its not for the not trying. TW

Yes, as stated previouisly in my post above before the quoted phrase. In some instances physical limitations do keep you at certain points. Most of the time, when observed, that is not the case. The attempt at different approaches is the mark of someone who does not wish to accept their limitations-- a good thing in training as long as no real chance of debilitating injury is imminent.

What was described in other posts, and what is commonly witnessed, were the obvious signs of people who simply did not wish to face the realities of training, and so, there they are. In fact, your particular description further illustrates my point. Whether physical or mental, the reason for a plateau is the inability to proceed, real or imagined. No judgment, as if you are comfortable where you are and accept it, or even better, learn how to adjust to it, excellent. There is only a problem when someone wishes to be one of the "elite," and doesn't wish to face the realities of their inabilities, self-inflicted or otherwise.

[TigerWoman]

There is only a problem when someone wishes to be one of the "elite," and doesn't wish to face the realities of their inabilities, self-inflicted or otherwise.

Its not so much as wanting a status which isn't there anyway (a 2nd dan is not much more than 1st-still learning) as finishing what I know is possible but denied. I have had an uphill battle with my instructor due to personal reasons when I was "in to it" training for 2nd dan. His obvious lack of instruction, help, and harmful exercise led me go it alone and train and protect myself. I fully realize that I, at 54, am a marginal black belt. I wish I had started as a teen but am glad that I have done it at all. What would YOU do if someone said you couldn't do something that you COULD and only takes a hair breadth more...but seems to be always out of reach to accomplish.? It is human nature, to not stay at that plateau, to work around it to the best of their ability, to challenge themselves, even if it is in a different way. Its the human spirit, to never give up. TW

[Trent]

Wanting to be the best at what you do is not a status issue for most I know who are at that level. It's a personal issue of self-actualization, or self-realization.

Your particular situation is very unfortunate and should never have occurred. It is not typical of plateau phenomenon.

Also, your spirit is to be commended, and I truly enjoy seeing it expressed here. However, it is not in everyone to have it unfortunately. Which is why most quit when it begins to become difficult in ordinary circumstances.

[psi_radar]

I suppose I have a different take on plateaus than what I've read so far. Sometimes, given a challenge, I will charge it head on and attack it until I succeed.

On the other hand, if I reach a point of stagnation, I like to take a break to get perspective and come back reinvigorated rather than beating the problem to death. Much like I'm doing now; taking a quick break from work to converse with you guys. When I go back to work, I might have a different perspective on the project I was working on.

[Rob Broad]

Can plateaus be a learning experience?

[Trent]

Can plateaus be a learning experience?

They certainly are. Part of anyone's martial path I would imagine. Plateaus force you to re-evaluate your art, your instructor and, most of all, yourself.